On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.
There's a negative feedback loop you take testosterone. It's going to shut down your own production. Melatonin doesn't have that negative feedback loop. I had a bunch of cars that were old and I were to go out into that City and change the cars so that they were more efficient to pollution would be better and that's ultimately what a think a lot of the listeners want produce less pollution. Melatonin could be used with just about anybody looking to maximize their performance and that's really what melatonin can offer.
ER
you know performance nutrition longevity ancestral living biohacking and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the
show.
All right, folks. Here we go. Buckle up. It's my crazy doctor friend. John Lawrence. I got in the show today. He blew your mind on the last episode and of this one promises to be just as good. So I hope you enjoy this podcast is brought to you by key on my playground for all things health and wellness. It's a company that I essentially created to scratch my own itch to blend ancient wisdom with modern science to create these pure efficacious shotgun formulations of
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Powder and sometimes little bit of like macadamia nut butter or pumpkin seed butter and a little bit of avocado and some sea salt and some Stevia lately. I've actually been trying out a handful of just like good old wild blueberries in a scoop of this organifi red. And again, I'll usual some of the Super Foods, you know, like kefir bone broth to mix it up in and sea salt on I always top it with cacao nibs and bee pollen and all sorts of fun stuff. I love my morning superfood smoothies, but organifi red juice if you're using some blueberries as your base,
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All right, folks as promised the brilliant slightly crazy super Fringe. Dr. John Lawrence is back on my show today. John is unfortunately not out with me in my guest house post sauna and cold pool amped up on Fringe but suppositories and nasal sprays like he was the last time that we recorded we're instead.
Acting via Skype, but I had to get John back on because he's just putting the finishing touches on this book. The book is about melatonin and that may sound like a your honor for you pun intended because you might just consider melatonin to be like this thing that you may or may not take before sleep. But holy cow. He like knows melatonin backwards and forwards you guys may have heard me talk about how I have completely reset my circadian rhythm using this high do smell.
The tonin suppository and this this liposomal melatonin that John develops and it's it's doing a lot more than just regulating sleep and we're going to delve into that in today's podcast. If you miss my first podcast with John it was called the crazy future of medical biohacking skull reset suppositories nasal sprays nebulizers sound therapy and more and you should go back and listen that too because we get a ton into John's backstory and delve into like, you know, Amazonian.
/ both Hopi nasal spray, which I still use by the way to to like nebulizing glutathione for viral issues to NAD suppositories instead of like getting NAD IVs, which also works really well and a lot more so that Original Episode and then all the show notes for today's episode. I will link to at Ben Greenfield fitness.com. / melatonin Miracle been Greek opens.com melatonin miracle and
then just real quick. If you don't know who John is he operates down in Florida? He's basically got a private practice down there in its Sarasota, right John. So, yeah, so yeah. So yeah, so he's a naturopathic physician. He's a chiropractic neurologist. He spent most of his career focusing on things like balance disorders and tinnitus and hearing loss and degenerative neurological disorders, like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's as well as a lot of these stealth co-infections like, you know Chronicle,
Women and chronic inflammatory response syndrome and mold illness because he's had Lyme himself and we got into all that on the first episode which you got to go listen to but he also just develops these crazy crazy products and I'm constantly sending people to your website to check under your new stuff John cuz it's just it's Fringe. It's out there. I honestly I don't know how you get away with with selling this stuff online, but you somehow do it so
well, you know,
It's been it's been a selfish Endeavor because a lot of the products or things I wanted to use myself and it's allowed me to kind of reach out and work with patients all over the world really, you know, because we're able to create products that are you know, almost as effective as if you were to do an IV or an injection where you're able to kind of circumvent the oral route with yeah depositories in the
liposomal. Yeah. I mean that that's what I was on the phone with somebody yesterday there like I got to go in and get my
Super uncomfortable in a div and sit there and cringes as the ivy get some air. So I'm like, why don't you just like put NAD up your butt and let it slow bleed into your system for 8 hours. Like I do not want to sleep and it's kind of kind of a lot easier. So anyways, though. We're not here to talk about NAD in your arsehole. We're here to talk about melatonin. So anyways, but for those of you who want to go visit John at his clinic or if you lived in or near Florida, or you want to make a medical biohacking trip medical tourism, so to speak in the you
U.s. I'll link to John sites as well as all John's products in the show notes. So John. Yeah, this this whole deal with melatonin, you know, I'm aware of dr. Frank shallenberger cuz I really really got super interested in Ozone when covid him and I bought like a fancy ozone generator and started doing ozone water and you know, and I've had my wife do because because she's had like UTIs in the past and she's gonna love me saying this on the show, but I've have heard her.
Vaginal ozone insufflation and I'm done like ozone through olive oil for you know for things like upper respiratory tract infections and really dig ozone and and found. Dr. Frank shallenberger who arguably was like kind of the guy who pioneered the use of ozone in functional medicine, but I didn't realize that that a you did an internship with him and be that that he utilized melatonin in a way that kind of
It's you so can you tell that story?
Yeah, so well before I did my internship with with Frank shallenberger. I was at a brain Rejuvenation conference and I was I was sitting next to a doctor that that was watching the presentation with me and a present a presenter came on and started talking about these super physiological doses of melatonin and how neuroprotective it was and he was seeing a lot of benefit in the clinic and the guy sitting
Next to me kind of reached over and he said, you know, I've been doing this in my clinic and it's been one of the best, you know clinical pearls I've learned in a long time and so that got my attention. So when I went to see shallenberger, you know to do my internship with him. I actually slipped into the into a schedule to have him kind of take a look at me. You know, I was post lime. I was having, you know, a lot of neurological symptoms like word finding and
My memory and I just felt like I wasn't performing it at what I should be and so he suggested I start taking 200 milligrams of melatonin not just at night. But if I could tolerate it, which he said twenty percent of the population can which I've come to find is about accurate that when you take it during the day you don't get sleepy if you have light exposure to the
eyes and just to just to interrupt real quick. Just when we're throwing around dosages just super quick for the people who may not be familiar with melatonin.
Conan dosages typically most supplements most recommendations if there are recommendations for people to take melatonin say like at night before sleep. It's usually like anywhere from 0.323 milligrams a high dose in many cases up until dr. John is hitting the scene is like 10 and you're so so what Frank was talking to you about was 200. So we're talking about about it literally hundreds of times more than a lot of times what you'll see.
Ended
right? It's a shockingly high dose of Melatonin. And for whatever reason there's been some false information put out into the medical community about some dangers about melatonin. So we should probably nip that in the bud right away.
Why don't you finish telling the story about shallenberger? And then let's get let's get into into some of the rumors about melatonin after that.
I tried the protocol that worked for me and you know, I had been doing some and
Eating some different products through my toes and.com. And we you know, we added that to the you know, the Sandman which is are 250 milligrams suppository, you know to our product line and then we started to use those with our patients here are clinically and a lot of the doctors that I work with started using it with their patients and we've just seen some, you know, very promising results with using these really high doses of melatonin. So you call
That super physiological dosing of melatonin and that's the official medical terminology for
it. Super physiological. Mmm. Okay. So so when you're talking about a super physiological dose and you you mentioned that that Frank had been using that for cancer and then you used it for TBI. Why is that term you super physiological? What's that mean? Exactly?
Well because the amount of melatonin that the Pioneer secretes as really
A tiny amount and so when you start to take melatonin at these really high doses it's higher than what the body produces naturally so way higher than the endogenous production that's made in the body. So we use it for sleep, but there's so many more benefits which we're going to dive into in this podcast with melatonin that we're using it for our patients for.
Okay, so, you know, I think what I want to do before we dive into what's going
With these higher doses is back up just a little bit and explain melatonin because we have time, you know, when it comes to melatonin and you have a really good section in your new book, which I don't even know if I mentioned yet. It's called the Melatonin miracle and fantastic. I kind of got my hands on a beta copy and and have all sorts of pages folded over in it. But you know you reference melatonin as the way it's commonly referenced the the so-called hormone of darkness and then you kind of describe like why it is that it's
It's so important. So what exactly is melatonin from from hormonal standpoint? Like what are the important things that people should know about where it's secreted and what it's doing
if you look at melatonin, it's it's a primary protector from stress. And so if we were to compare it to something I would like to compare it to the electromagnetic You Know Field around the earth, right? And so that's an internal produced field that extends outside of the Earth.
And it's protecting us from the ultraviolet rays that would normally kill life on the planet. So in the same way every cell in your body actually produces melatonin and not just in the cell, but in the part of the cell that actually makes your energy which is called the mitochondria and these mitochondria produce melatonin in a response to stress. So one of the things I thought was really interesting is if you go back in the earliest days of research with melatonin the
Jurors, initially didn't see any benefit to giving melatonin. They were giving it to animal models
any benefit for for sleep. You
mean for anything? Okay. Yeah, they work they were just looking in general to see if there was any difference in life span and in disease production, and I'm not sure if they even really looked at sleep in particular think it was just General Health and so they were kind of like well melatonin doesn't seem to be a you know, a really important substance, but then they changed.
Study around a little bit where they took the the group of mice and they put them in these round tubes and they poked a little holes in the tube. So the mice would have to be in this dark little tube, which this is kind of one of the ways that they mimic stress. So for a certain amount of time each day, they'll put them in these tubes and you can imagine how stressful that would be if they shoved you in a tube with little pin holes, right? Yeah. They they took the the mice and they had the two groups both being.
Ejected to the stress and the one that was given the Melatonin lived longer and didn't develop a lot of the diseases associated with that chronic stress that the mice that didn't didn't get the Melatonin. So that's when the research really started to open up and they started to notice that there was a lot of benefits to
melatonin. Now the interesting thing that I think about melatonin and that this is kind of like possibly a little bit of rabbit hole is, you know, I used to do bodybuilding and in the bodybuilding industry
What they realized after deciding they want an alternative to like spray on Tans and fake tanning lotion or copious amount of time spent in tanning beds with something that could allow for melanin production and the darkening of the skin and so a lot of body builders started using this peptide called melanotan, which you would you inject and it works as advertised. I tried it for for a few days. This was a couple of years back and my skin started to darken and get this nice tan almost right away, but one of
the side effects and is actually quite common side effect in many men who take it is essentially the equivalent almost like a priapism like an erection that won't go away and so I was like laying in bed at night with with a massive hard-on and that you'd think you know, most guys wouldn't complain about we're talking about like distracting for five or six hours so I couldn't sleep and so for me that that sleep disruption due to a lot of stuff going on in my crotch wasn't worth the trade-off for a tan, but
I tell that story because from what I understand, you know, melatonin regulates melanin aggregation and and a little bit of that pigmentation response because I think it was in frogs. They found that when you extract this this hormone that they had found in the pineal gland it modified melanin pigmentation in in frogs by reducing melanin aggregation. And I also think that's interesting because I think it was dr. Jack Cruz who I heard this first from
That you see some Milan in production down-regulation. If you're out in the sun and you wear sunglasses because one of the the triggers for melanin to be produced to actually protect you from the Sun is a trigger that's produced when photons of light hit your retina. And so if you're wearing sunglasses outside on a bright sunny day, you're actually more likely to burn and less likely to tan and also less likely to harness appreciable amounts of vitamin D from
um sunlight if you're wearing sunglasses, so that's one of the reasons folks rarely see me sporting sunglasses Outdoors unless I'm like, you know snowboarding or trying to protect myself from Sun blindness like Ellen the desert or something like
that. Yeah, I do the same thing and that's that we get into quite a bit of depth on that in one of the chapters in the book where we talk about skin and and yeah, so I don't like to wear sunglasses either unless you know, I have to but it's definitely interesting how you'll tan instead of burn.
When you avoid sunglasses a lot of people don't know that
yeah, yeah and in and then they you know, that's kind of the whole idea behind the pineal gland right? It's secretes melatonin in the presence of darkness, which is why as many of my listeners already know and are well aware bright light exposure at night reduces that melatonin production, you know, adequate amounts of natural light during the daytime can enhance the activity the pineal gland later on at night, but you know, there's this whole idea of the pineal gland producing melatonin.
You know, especially yolks to light and also yolk to serotonin which is why I think a higher carbohydrate meal or adequate carbohydrates in the evening can assist with sleep kind of kind of dictates. What I would ask you for my next question and that is this, you know, if the if the pineal gland is producing melatonin and we begin to supplement with that same hormone essentially, you know, either wider liposomal e, you know using something like your Sandman
A doctor via suppository like the Sandman suppository. What's that going to do to endogenous production? That's the million dollar question. I get over and over again is I'm going to shut down my own melatonin production by take it. So, so give me the give me the lowdown on that.
So yeah, so that's that's how most hormones work. There's a negative feedback loop. So like for instance if you take testosterone it's going to shut down your own production. So what's really interesting is that melatonin doesn't have that negative feedback loop, so
You know, I'll give you an example. I did an experiment on myself. I don't think I've shared this with you yet, but I discontinued the experiment about a month ago, but for three months, I was doing 800 milligrams of melatonin per
night. What were you doing that via suppository or via
liposomal? So I was doing both. Okay both of the same time.
Okay and both ends.
I think you've experimented with as well.
I don't think I've ever ever use your liposomal at the same time as I've used the suppository.
Was just use one or the other anyways back to your store using
800. Yeah, so, you know the first time I did that it was quite a strong effect as far as becoming groggy and going to sleep and I slept really really hard. But what when I started that I thought I got covid so I started to get sick and then a close friend of mine that I had close contact with tested positive. So I started to get a little bit of a runny nose and I was like, okay I got covid so that night I took
that massive dose and and then the next night I took it and I just kept that going and I adapted to that high dose and then I completely stopped taking any melatonin at all for a couple of weeks and I really felt like it didn't really interfere with my sleep rhythms. And my aura ring scores were still, you know, fairly good. Obviously, I think they were a little bit better with with the higher dose. But so I personally, you know kind of experimented with you know, feeling the effects that you know, so your
Or melatonin is going to build based on sunlight hitting the retina. And so when you stop when you when you take a exoticness melatonin, you're still going to release the same amount that you're storing do amount with that's related to the sunlight that you get that day. And it just doesn't change. There's just not that negative feedback.
I get. Well not only do I get a decent amount of sunlight. Now the spring is approaching at the time that we're recording this but even in the winter, which is when I first began experimenting with the hide,
Those melatonin you were sending me, you know in the morning. I blast myself with a ton of of technology that kind of simulates the sunlight. I'm not able to get in the winter, especially living on a north-facing slope out here in Washington state. So I've got you know, one of those daytime like blue light boxes on my office desk and then I've also got these glasses called the re timers that produce blue light and then those in ear human Chargers that sounds like a lot but I'm basically bombarding myself with at least
Different sources of bright, you know technology-based light during the day time. And so that that may also have been why I saw such a good response to this protocol, but I kind of call it the Melatonin Sledgehammer because I was having some pretty serious sleep issues after some travel it would have been winter of 2000 and and and 20 and so I started into that that higher dose of Melatonin protocol and was kind of bouncing back and forth.
Like some days I'd use the liposomal some days. I use your suppository and I was generally for about 30 days in a row. I did about 300 to 400 milligrams of melatonin every single night and I went from like multiple nighttime Awakenings early morning Awakening is not being able to go back to bed daytime sleepiness due to poor sleep cycles, and it's almost like it reset everything and then I actually I quit cold turkey because what
Was after my sleep was all normalized. I went on a trip with my wife for about a week and I thought well, this is perfect chance for me to just like not take any melatonin with me and just force myself to kind of reset and see what happens and it was it was like my body had learned to sleep based on that higher dose melatonin protocol and when I cut out the Melatonin my sleep cycle remained really stable. And so even now, you know, it's probably one or two times a week.
Week when I have like a late night event where I'm under bright lights or I've been traveling and I've arrived back home that I'll use that kind of like melatonin Sledgehammer type of approach similar to how one would use like a vitamin D Sledgehammer. If they're first getting the onset of cold or flu, you know doing like a 20,000 to 50,000 like like an intramuscular injection of vitamin D that type of thing kind of a similar approach with melatonin, but I experienced none of the actual indicators that would indicate to me that
Total production had been down regulated. If anything it seemed to stabilize my sleep score after going 30 days without skipping a beat going high dose. Hmm.
Have you looked at your heart rate variability when you're taking the high doses,
it doesn't seem to really change much aside from the fact that because whenever I get better sleep my heart rate variability improves. And so if it's a good night of sleep whether or not I'm using melatonin for sleep. I see an increase in heart rate variability, but I'm not I'm not convinced. That's due.
To the Melatonin although you might you might have a different thought versus just better sleep in
general. Well, you know the way I look at heart rate variability as it's really it's really kind of a how well we're dealing with stress, right and often times. It's a too strong of a sympathetic nervous system, you know, the sympathetic fight-or-flight nervous system is more predominant and there's not that yin and yang between the two sides of the autonomic sand. So melatonin has actually been shown
To really strengthen the autonomic nervous system and particularly the parasympathetic nervous system. And so I've actually seems seen some dramatic improvements with heart rate variability with both myself and also some of my patients
hmm interesting. Okay, cool. Alright, so so basically in terms of endogenous production would you say then that that is not a concern for people if they're supplementing of melatonin
not not a concern. Yeah according to the literature.
Sure, that's not a
concern. Okay, so a couple of the questions regarding dosing you actually say in your book that melatonin may not even be effective unless taken at high doses. What's the reason behind saying that that like a small dose doesn't even work.
Well, if somebody's taking it for sleep and you know, they're under the age of 40 a couple things I would point out is you know what the research says that you should possibly take it even three or four.
Hours before your bedtime to be more effective, but we're not talking about taking melatonin just for sleep. It does and I think kind of back to you know, your story about traveling and kind of resetting the Circadian rhythm. There's so many melatonin receptors. There's the g-protein compound melatonin receptors, which there's an mt1 and mt2 in an Mt. 3 and the Mt. 1 & 2 are mostly with the nervous system in the brain.
So we're basically we've got all these melatonin receptors throughout our bodies and our cells. So when we start to provide these signaling with melatonin, we're kind of retraining not just the sleep-wake cycle, but there's so many different other systems in our body that also have their connected to this circadian rhythm one example, is that your microbiome also takes the signaling from melatonin release and in fact the Melatonin
Is 400 times higher in the gut than it is in the brain. So it's a lot more, you know higher and so sometimes when you get into these higher doses you might be looking at some of the benefits through the gut and the microbiome actually takes a there's something called microbiome swarming and the primary activator of microbiome swarming is actually deep sleep and melatonin release. So this is where you are good bacteria literally go into a phase.
As of growth and proliferation and you know, one of the interesting things I found in the literature with with melatonin supplementation for a lot of gut diseases is that they actually found that there's a suppression of the bad bacteria and a support to the good bacteria.
That's interesting. So so melatonin is actually having an impact on the microbiome as well
big time. Yeah, and that's why you know, we created the my toe phase fasting protocol. We wrote an article.
And you we published it right? It's like a
month ago. There's a big article on my website about this whole idea of enhancing otology and kind of like using this fasting high-dose NAD protocol that you developed and melatonin is a part of that as well. Right,
right. So so yeah the the my toe fast after the fast so when you're fasting it's a hormetic stress to the microbiome, your body is basically robbing the microbiome of nutrients, so it's kind of survival of the fittest you
Get Ready Get rid of the week and then when you start to refeed you're going to repopulate and so what we're having people do is do high dose melatonin in that refeeding phase to support the microbiome swarming and also to prevent some of the bad guys from repopulating.
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So basically the this idea of it not shutting down endogenous production and also higher dose Administration being more beneficial than lower dose Administration. I think there's a couple things that I learned from your book that I wanted to make sure I mention to folks you do mention some research that shows those smaller doses taken farther away from Bedtime than most people I think take melatonin like 2 to 4 hours before bedtime that does seem to be effective at reducing sleep latency or the
Of time that it takes to fall asleep. So there are some benefits to the smaller dose. You will fall asleep faster, but when you're talking about the actual anti-inflammatory effects cellular automata G the effects and the biome and you know some of the other anti-inflammatory and other benefits that I think will also be touching on even more as we move forward here the the peak blood time or the peak plasma levels, I think is what you call them in the book decline pretty rapidly in response to
to like that low dose Administration, but then the actual the peak plasma levels stay elevated for an extended period of time during the entire night when you've got something like a like a melatonin suppository, you know the same thing with like your NAD suppository a lot of times I'll do the NAD and the Melatonin suppository at the same time. So I'm basically getting this slow bleed. So to speak of melatonin and NAD into my system the entire night and again like
First I was a little bit concerned about the dosage levels, but you've got several studies in the book where you talk about like daily oral doses of 30 to 60 milligrams of melatonin being well tolerated and having virtually no side effects. There's one clinical trial you talk about where people are getting daily 300 milligram melatonin suppositories with no clinical complications, you know, another one where there was 60 milligrams of intravenous melatonin and and no issues and so it seems to actually be if anything
Not only safe but also beneficial and so I think that that the lower dose does have some benefit. But again, it's farther away from Bedtime the most people are taking it and the benefit is primarily that reduction in sleep
latency. Yeah, exactly. So so when I start talking to people about these higher doses of melatonin I try to get them to think about other other benefits that melatonin has besides
sleep. Yeah that and that's what I want. That's what I want to get into man and and
And so the first thing that intrigued me that you briefly touched on but I'd love to hear you unpack just a little bit more is the effects of melatonin on the mitochondria. So what's going on for map from mitochondria level with melatonin? Okay, great
question. This is really at the core of how melatonin works. And so what happens is there's a number of different stressors, right? There's chemical mental emotional physical electromagnetic. There's infections, you know, these are the primary stressors that
We have to deal with and then we have hormesis which is our ability to respond to stresses. And if the dosage is just right, right, we have a response of the body where we could even come back stronger. So we have you know, we have the mitochondria really being at the core of our ability to handle stress. Right? So like for instance if we overtrain it's because we exceeded our mitochondria's ability to handle that that stress or
Often cancers, you know, they're looking at cancer as a core metal mitochondrial problem chronic like even covid right? So if we look at covid when that gets to the point where it's a critical situation the immune system shuts down and there's something called a cytokine storm that results in acute respiratory distress syndrome and that is a mitochondrial problem. And so what results from these stresses is something called cytokines, and these cytokines are basically in
The their inflammation at the cellular level and when a cytokine approaches the cell what happens is the cell is absorbing glucose into the cell and then it converts it into pyruvate. And so then the pyruvate is shuffled into the mitochondria and it's converted into something called acetyl Co a but if there's cytokines what happens is that pyruvate is taken out of the mitochondria and put into the
cytosol and if there's an enzyme that blocks where we can use pyruvate efficiently and the cytokine causes this shift where we can only make ten percent of the energy that we would otherwise make and so this is the reason that we have this cytokine storm with say covid is because we shift to this inefficient energy production that's called aerobic glycolysis where they called the the Warburg effect, you know, if people want to dive into this they
And look at Auto warburg's work with cancer and and the mitochondria, but for our sake I think it's important to understand that inflammation, which is the result of all of the stresses shuts down our ability to make energy and it literally cuts it by, you know, you know nine out of ten. So you got 10% of the energy that you could otherwise make and so for somebody with covid all of a sudden their immune cells have no energy and then it just gets out of control.
So at the core level the Melatonin is actually produced by the mitochondria to buffer this entire system to quench that enzyme so that you can then start continuing to make energy.
I think that's also important for people who are concerned about heart health as well because we know that sympathetic nervous system stress and I'm a big podcast coming out on heart health soon is one of the contributors to potential for heart disease, but that stress whether
Brought on by environmental or by you know, emotional variables does result in some amount of inflammation that shifts even the heart into some element of glycolysis and lactic acid production and that can actually lead to to both calcification as well as influencing the electrical activity the pacemaker cells in the heart. And so that that's actually one of the reasons that the body has some pretty cool mechanisms to keep the heart. It's kind of like shuttle.
Fat's to cardiac tissue so that cardiac tissue gets first dibs on fats because the heart runs so well on ketones and on fatty acids along with the diaphragm and the liver being a couple other organs where that occurs, but essentially I would love to see just based on this this little thought that I'm having what and I don't know if any studies exist on this and you can correct me if I'm wrong John what the effect of melatonin supplementation on cardiovascular disease risk or cardiovascular say
Heart attack recovery would be in response to like higher dose of Melatonin.
Yeah. Well, I have a whole chapter on that. There's actually a lot of a lot of research that's been done on that. So, you know the brain and the Heart of the to metabolically demanding organs in your body. So those tissues are working very hard. They need a lot of continuous energy. And so when you start to have a breakdown in mitochondrial function, so, you know, you have to look at the mitochondrion a couple ways one is is it efficiently making energy?
In other words we talked about efficiency meaning that it's like if you were to have say like a log right and you throw that Log on the Fire and one log might burn for 10 hours the other log might burn for an hour. So we're talking about having logs that can only burn an hour and that's what's happening at the cellular level when there's too much stressors. So circling back to that, you know, we have the the the situation where the heart is so metabolically demanding and you start to shut
Down the the the the ability to produce lots of energy, but then you have the inefficient production of energy meaning that it's going to make energy and it's going to spew a lot of oxidation. It would be like an old car. You know, that's that's producing a lot of pollution like if I had a city and I had a bunch of cars that were old and I were to go out into that City and change the cars so that they were more efficient. Maybe they were burning, you know instead of gas there.
Burning electric and and so the city the pollution would be better it would use less energy, right it would be more efficient and that's ultimately what a think we want and we want, you know, the lot of the listeners want their bodies to be more efficient produce less pollution, and that's really what melatonin can offer you because it supports the mitochondria, which is at the core of making energy,
right? And I think that that you know, when we look at the heart particularly, there are some other variables that influence
Propensity for for beta oxidation or burning of ketones to be limited particularly things like the nature of the water within the cytoplasm of cardiac cells particularly whether or not that water is is structured right in the cytoplasm. Another one would be how much exposure to photonic light has occurred which allows for that the mitochondria in cardiac tissue and Beyond actually work properly. And so there's a variety of factors here, but but low inflammation low
Is adequate exposure to particularly infrared light spectrum and adequate hydration particular mineral intake are all things that kind of play into that variable in terms of not only cardiac cell efficiency, but overall mitochondrial efficiency of the entire body and it seems as though melatonin is pushing that along quite
beautifully. Yeah. Well, the other thing is the autonomics, you know, having a strong autonomic nervous system in a if they have an over dominant parasympathetic you start going out there and you start exercising. You know, it everybody's felt that
You know over adrenaline sized feeling and the athletic performance declines with that right? So think about this you get a really deep restful sleep. The body is basically repairing itself and you're supporting your parasympathetic nervous system. I mean, these are all just little glimpses of all of the things that melatonin can do for you know, someone who's an athlete or someone that's maybe got a disease issue that they're dealing with and they want to decrease the inflammation and
improve their immune system improve their body's response to stress. You know, it just overall, you know, I just think that melatonin could be used with just about anybody looking to maximize their
performance. Yeah. Yeah and you mentioned immune system there. I love the section of the book where you talk about how it's possible that people may not need to be wasting their money flying to Mexico for these fancy. NK killer cell injections, you know that a lot of people don't realize it's a
Dawn the u.s. To actually grow the stem cells like you can Harvest themselves you can store some Styles but you're not allowed to actually grow them to mobilize or to modify human cells in culture in the US and if you go to like Mexico, you can expand cells and produce like these higher amounts of NK cells. And so a lot of people will engage in so-called medical tourism and go to Mexico to amp up their immune system with some fancy 40 to $50,000. NK cell injection you talk in the book though about the
Out of melatonin on the immune system particularly on killer cells what's going on
there? Yeah, it's super interesting when you look at the information on the
research on how melatonin affects natural killer
cells. Actually there was an interesting article in 2005 in immunity and aging and it was called melatonin immune
function and aging
and what they talked about in that article is how there's something called immuno senescence. So I know a lot of the listeners are familiar with familiar with
Essence cells writes that permanent state of sleepiness that sells go into and it's linked
to aging and chronic inflammation all those types of things.
Well that happens with your immune system as well. And what melatonin does is to actually increases the secretion of something called progenitor cells, which are basically stem cells that will turn into natural killer cells. Melatonin has also been shown to improve interleukins and T helper cells. So yeah, lots of information.
A chinon melatonin as it relates to the immune system. And as you mentioned before, you know, there's people paying 40 50 thousand dollars to go to Mexico and get their natural killer cells expanded and you know to know that melatonin can do a fairly decent job at that, you know, without spending tens of thousands of dollars and also something that you can do
kind of on a regular basis over the course of several years. Yeah. I think the study was in in immunity and aging on Mel
tone in immune function and aging and I don't remember the percentage increase in there as well, but it was a market shift in the side of King profile and particularly the competence of individual natural killer cells that were especially in aging individuals where you see a decline in that NK cell activity that melatonin administration had some pretty enormous therapeutic value to enhance immune function particularly in a aging people and be
and people in an immuno compromised state which you know in Era of covid were no saying that melatonin is like a like a like a covid cure or something like that. But in terms of the impact on the immune system, not only is important but I but I do know in functional medicine there are many practitioners who have been using melatonin and even higher dose melatonin for things like, you know, long-haul covid or even amping up the immune system's ability to be able to fight off any virus for that matter.
And so there's definitely something going on. And then the other thing is that based on the anti-inflammatory activity you talked about earlier the the inhibition of the cytokine storm particularly that in view induced by covid-19 was studied like in 2020 was study and it was shown exogenously administered melatonin could inhibit the cytokine storm.
Yeah it sure, you know, there was a study that came out just in December from the Cleveland Clinic and they looked at people that they gave Mel.
Lehtonen to and I didn't State the dosage but there was a 52 percent decrease in the likelihood of Contracting covid. So for those people that want to decrease their chances of catching covid, they might consider melatonin. Yeah, and then there was another there was another group of doctors that came out and they release this article and they're really trying to to promote people forgetting for taking melatonin two weeks prior.
And one month following a vaccine now. I know everybody's got their own all their own opinions on vaccines. We probably shouldn't get into that on this podcast. But for those people that feel like, you know, they're going to get that vaccine. It really should consider taking melatonin prior and after because one of the things that they talk about in this paper is that you'll have a stronger antibody response. So when you get the vaccine you rely on especially healthier, but they were saying how
Ethier people, it's probably even more important because they don't have as strong of an antibody response to the
vaccine. You know what I think I think that that's part of it, but I also think part of this might also come down to the adjuvants in vaccines because melatonin is actually it's a chelating agent. I learned this from your book that that actually prevents toxicity induced by metals like Mercury and lead and cadmium and I don't know if aluminum a common adjuvant in vaccines. I don't know if they if they studied the protective effects of me.
Turning against aluminum toxicity, but they've looked at a host of other similar metals and it's really interesting. I was unaware of this till I read your book how powerful of a chelating agent it is. And so for people who have like a robust say like a sauna practice or people who are doing, you know, they like coffee enemas or people who are doing like, you know metal chelation protocols. It appears that melatonin seems to support a lot of those Pathways.
Oh, yeah. I was shocked when I read that too. And you know, it not only key lates heavy metals out of the brain.
Which which actually might account for a subset of patients when they first start taking really high doses of melatonin. They may actually feel a little bit, you know a little off, you know, it does happen occasionally and it might be just from the detoxification from the melatonin. But yeah, it also protects you when you get exposure. So I think that's another good reason that anybody doing the vaccine which should consider taking melatonin.
Yeah, and and and like you mentioned, you know, if you if you start using high dose really the main side effect I noted.
Was
morning grogginess but the interesting thing and of course this makes perfect sense based on what we explained earlier was as suit, like all wake up and I'll have a little bit of morning grogginess from from basically. I'm I can almost guarantee. It's the Melatonin because it doesn't happen when I don't take the melatonin but as soon as I blast myself with sunlight or morning light exposure, it disappears within like five minutes like it's remarkably fast how soon the grogginess disappears so it's like the the like exposure to light if you're groggy from melatonin Administration.
Specially high dose melatonin Administration for sleep. Like if you get blasted with light as soon as you wake up or you know, or at some point in the hour after you wake up for me personally, like the grogginess just completely vanishes.
Well, I think it makes a lot of sense what you're doing because what you're doing is you're really hacking this circadian rhythm and the sleep-wake now a lot of people might be sitting there thinking. Wow, that sounds really extreme. You know, why is Ben and Johnny Rodz such extremists, but we live in a different world now.
You know, you can't expect to just kind of muddle along and and continue to be healthy because there's so many stressors. Like I'll tell you another thing that shocked me was when I really looked at emfs, right? So you look at the Ms. And there's you know, there's just compelling evidence showing that its carcinogenic right if we're exposed to Too Much cell phone radiation or our Wi-Fi, you know, these these electromagnetic frequencies can be very destructive to us at a cellular level.
And one of the things that I found in the research is that the pineal gland actually perceives these emfs as light and it decreases melatonin and that's in the literature as well. So it makes an argument to almost look at you. Look at the graph you say? Okay. Well, you know, there's actually an interesting body of evidence showing that melatonin suppresses cancer, right? So is it the carcinogenic effects of EMF because it's lowering melatonin, you know our most of a lot of the negative
Facts of EMF related to the fact that it's squashing our melatonin. I don't
know hmm. It's interesting. But but related to to the Melatonin issue, you know, I talked earlier about the effects of melanin in terms of being able to say protect the skin from damage in response to UVA and UVB exposure and how limiting exposure of the retina to photons of Light May actually exacerbate that issue, but then there's also some interesting data on Mel.
A tonin and it's protective effect on skin like the actual stimulation of production of collagen and elastin can can you get into that a little bit like kind of like the the anti-aging type of use for melatonin
you look at the skin. I look at the skin a lot. Like I look at the lining of the gut right you have two areas that are in touch with our external world, and there's a lot of there's a lot of activity there and when you have activity you're making energy and you're producing oxidation
And so melatonin is the primary buffer against this oxidation. And so when we go out into the Sun and we get blasted by these UV rays when we have a strong oxidative capacity, then we're going to be protecting that that skin. So they have done a number of studies where they've shown that people that take exoticness melatonin have much improved skin with collagen and elastin like you just mentioned we're actually playing around
and with some melatonin creams and you know, we're kind of beta testing. I think I gave you guys a bottle of that at some
point. Yeah, you you send me up a bottle of some kind of a skin cream that I use for a little while that had melatonin in it. Yeah. I didn't know that it smells very sulfurous. What was the sulfur smell
that might have been I might have put glutathione in there. I've got you know, I've done a few different versions of it.
Yeah. It had kind of a glutathione e type a type of smell to it.
Yeah. So yeah, I mean you can apply melatonin.
And you know to that to the skin and I you know, I think a face cream with melatonin makes a lot of sense and I haven't I put it on in the morning and I really don't feel you know, any negative effects as far as feeling groggy or or anything like
that. So, okay got it, you know, I want to turn to to kind of like this this idea of stacking like we touched on the the my toe fast protocol where and there's a whole article about this on my website that you wrote that
I'll link to a folks go to Ben Greenfield fitness.com. / melatonin Miracle where you talk about how you'll stack melatonin into a specific fasting protocol that also includes NAD Administration to enhance particularly the the mitochondrial benefits of a fast and that's a pretty cool protocol. But I'm curious about a couple of other things when it relates to things that combine well with melatonin because when I look at the ingredients
Label of the Sandman like your liposomal for people who don't like to shove things up there. But or the or the suppository their stuff in there besides melatonin. What else are you combining with the Melatonin?
Well, we have Magnolia bark extract in the Sandman and that helps with it works through Gaba. So it enhances sleep a bit as well and we have some full spectrum hemp in there and then there's the terpene from lavender called little all that.
We put in there. Yeah, I mean those are the primary active
ingredients. I thought you had like a probiotic in there
too. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We do have a probiotic.
Yeah, which bacterial strain are using for the for the probiotic in the suppository?
Yeah been so we basically have two probiotic combinations. One of them's called AP 0808 the other ones APO 19 and they're both proprietary blends of mostly strains of bacillus and the idea was to add very specific strains that would support the absorption.
Of in the situation with the AP 0808 the melatonin in the glutathione and with the APO 19. It was more with the CBD and the cannabinoids
Oh, you mean the actual strain you're keeping proprietary? Yeah. Look at you holding your cards close to your chest. Well, either either way for for colonic Flora this idea of having bacteria up your butt along with the Melatonin during a night of sleep seems to seems to be something that for me at least seems to have a little bit of a gut stabilizing effect. And so these
Are these other compounds are particularly in there for relaxation, or are they in there for the because one of those you mentioned has more of like an ontology producing effect. Doesn't it one of those those plant-based polyphenols?
Yeah. So the the my toe fast, you know it the fit there's a phase 1 Phase 2 and phase 3. So the phase one is we're loading the cells with NAD. So we're charging the cells up to phase two. We're adding these plant polyphenols like fisa 10 sterile still being Resveratrol.
You know some
curcumin and that that that's all that's all in the in the loose at all product. And that's another one of your
products. So one of the one of the main reasons that we want to fast and this is probably something a lot of people a lot of your listeners already know but that we want to we want to clean up senescent cells. We want to trigger a topology. We want to trigger mitochondrial biogenesis and my toffee G. So all of these things can be even further accentuated where you can do a shorter fast and get the benefits of what would otherwise be a
A longer fast and that was really the goal of this is to allow people to fast for 24 hours or three days and get the effect of a longer fast like a five or six day
fast. Yeah. I do a quarterly fasting protocol. And at the time you sent me that article I had just finished up like this five day juice fast because a lot of times for My fasting protocols all experiment with like a ayurvedic cleanse or a panchakarma or a kitchen or a cleanse or you know, or a fasting protocol or fasting me.
In diet like valter Longo has done research on and so I love to like find new ways to kind of clean up the body for those quarterly fast and then test them on myself. So I know you wrote that article right after I'd finished this other fast, so I didn't try this yet, but it seems pretty simple. It's like the first two days before I start my fast I load up with a whole bunch of NAD so I could either go get in a div or use your NAD suppositories or the entity liposomal or whatever, but it but it's like a high dose of NAD for the
First couple of days like let's say a Monday and Tuesday and then the next couple of days you'll do like a like a water only 48 hour fast, but during that time you're up regulating the effects of the fast by doing melatonin and that loose at all suppository that you talked about or the or the loose at all liposomal. I like you you have you have an oral version of everything for for people who don't want to do the suppositories and that's got all the plant-based like the Phi seat in the car seat in all the things. I would upregulate cellular otology.
During the fast and then after I start eating again, then I take some of you some of you are like almost like mtor stimulating
compound. It's called stem tour. Yeah, it's something that's going to raise mtor.
Right? Right. I'll just somewhere to like taking like essential amino acids or something like that. You would stack those at the very end to shove your body back into an anabolic
phase. Yeah. Well, that's what we have people do is the key on aminos afterwards. We have them increase their protein intake and then we have a
a product called stem tour. That's at that has high Lucy Liu seen it has hmb and it has a deer antler velvet. So we're trying to like further kind of accentuate that growth and repair where you get more stem cells to be released then once they're released we have something called stems n which is high co Q 10 and people can do this on their own but there's something called fucoidan. So we've combined fucoidan in this High co Q 10 with the stems end product which improves the
Survivability of the stem cells once they're released into circulation.
Yeah. Yeah fucoidan. It isn't that from like a like a CMOS or something like
that. Exactly. Yeah brown seaweed. Yeah brown
seaweed. That's right. Yeah, that's an interesting molecule and of itself and by the way for people who for whom that might sound like a dizzying and complex type of fast. I know you have like a you have a kit. I think you have the liposomal version of that fast and then the the the suppository base version that fast and in the Box just arrives at your house with the
instructions and that's the so it's it's the time of recording this it is basically the end ish of winter 2021 for my spring 2021 fast the this is the one I'm going to do. I'm going to do the mighty fast protocol. So I'll keep people posted when I personally do that protocol, but it's pretty simple. Like there's really only two days where you're doing a full-on fast yet and it's sandwiched in between NAD and then these like mtor stimulant. So it's kind of kind of a cool idea.
There's so there's two there's two versions that we that we promote one is
You do a 24-hour to 36 or 48 hour fast and then we have a 3-2 full three day fast and really what I try to get a lot of my patients to do is to do a 24-hour fast every single week, right? There's just part of their ritual and then one week out of the month. I'd like them to do a full three day fast. So we'll actually have them do this my toe fast protocol, you know for a full three months in that
fashion. So it's three months.
Where you're doing for each of those months of three day fast, that's a cool cool idea. You know we mentioned that that loose at all plays a role in this being that that being the one that's that's rich in a lot of these autophagy enhancing compounds like fi Seaton as we Resveratrol. I know you have like egcg from green tea extract in there and keratin and curcumin and all these things that kind of shut down inflammation in the brain and also enhance cellular senescence and enhance cellular technology. What
interesting and you and I were chatting about wanting to mention this before we started recording and I think I actually do want to mention this because it's interesting is that you know, I do on about a quarterly basis like a plant medicine protocol where I where I actually do kind of like Journey with with with a variety of different plant medicines and I kind of treat that similar to like a like a TBI or concussion really in terms of paying attention to not only the neurotransmitter deficits that you know,
Tikal like that can produce but then also some of the brain inflammation that can occur when you're using a lot of these compounds at high doses that are amplifying neuronal activity like, you know 20 times plus if you're you know, whether we're talking about like a Ayahuasca Retreat or some other compound or stack of compounds you might be using for say like a journey and I began I think this was like a year and a half ago. What I started doing after that was when I'd go to bed that night I would
Use the delusive tall and then the sounds like a lot of stuff to shove up your butt. But one loose at all one Sandman and then one of your your CBDs, what's the CBD one
called? Neuro dial. Yeah near the dial
and I would do those three and wake up the next morning after applying medicine. I ceremony and really fresh. Yeah, totally fresh totally clean.
So I also have been fortunate enough to have some really
Ali profound positive experiences with plant medicine and you know, I feel like it's a very valuable tool if you can find the right people to work with and the first time I did it I was just I mean, I was worthless for two weeks. I mean, I was just you know, others wiped out and so the next time I went I you know, I used my products and it was like the next day. I woke up. I'm like, you know, I feel amazing. I slept great that night and I actually wrote an article on this aisle, you know.
What we'll do is we'll link to this article at Ben Greenfield Fitness forward slash melatonin miracle and we'll put that article in there for people that want to understand the protocol.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's pretty simple and and and you know, one thing I should mention because this is actually a question I get kind of people will ask me like, how do you do a coffee enema? Because a lot of people just like don't really know how to do a suppository. Typically. I like a lot of people
We'll use coconut oil or KY Jelly or some type of lubricant to kind of like moisten the rectal area. I honestly I don't even fuss around with that because it's suppositories are kind of slippery as it is, but you literally just like lie on your side and typically like you straighten the leg that's underneath you out and kind of bend the upper leg forward just a little bit and then you just insert the suppository, you know, typically it's easier if you're just like lying in bed.
And as long as you're not getting up and walking around in like, you know taking a pee which kind of relaxes some of the rectal sphincters etcetera any kind of like do is the last thing you do before you go to bed. It works. It works really well. And if I'm going to do sometimes I find that the high dose melatonin if I take that like an hour before I plan on going to bed. It kind of starts to hit me right when I'm going to sleep versus like doing it when I'm in bed and waiting for a tip my system. So in a case like that, I'll literally just like put in the suppository and then I'll go and just
like two minutes do a handstand against the front door of the house and just like go upside down for a little while and at that point, it feels like it just kind of stays in there even as I'm walking around brushing my teeth getting ready for bed etcetera. So that's the way that I do is I'll just slip it into a handstand or like hanging from an inversion table for a couple of minutes and then, you know, do all my pre bed stuff and they just hit the sack and about the time I hit the sack. It's like I'm lights
out. Yeah. Well, I think the biggest you know, the thing is when people insert if there's you know, if there if they need to have a
Movement, there's something already in there. It can kind of trigger. Yeah, some peristalsis is the movement. So yeah, you know, sometimes you can put a suppository in and then I got to use the restroom and you might lose it. You know, you just have to insert another one. So once in a while, you might you might lose a suppository but most people, you know, it dissolves within just a few minutes, you know, and you don't want to try to be too active and walking around but
yeah, it's I don't know this might be gross for some people to be hearing us describe this but these are the
Practical things people talk about so I just want to fill you guys in if you're listening and another couple of tips for you is first of all, it's normal when you first put it into feel like you kind of want to go to the bathroom. But then if you don't and you wait just like 5 or 10 minutes that urge goes away. Once your body overcomes that sensation of something being in the but that it wants to get back out of the butt and it's it was go away after a few minutes so know that and then the other thing is in case something does like slip out while you're asleep.
But night I actually any night I'm using a suppository even though if I'm not using one, I like to sleep naked because I just like to stay super cool when I'm asleep and just like the feeling of sleeping combat style. But I do I do where my boxers if I'm doing a suppository just in case just so I don't feel like wash the sheets in the morning if a suppository comes out and keep my wife happy that I'm not getting like, you know suppository died on the sheets or whatever. So right so couple of practical tips for you guys.
It's all with all this plant polyphenols.
They will definitely stay
know. I know my wife when I she was like are you eating turmeric in bed? I'm like, oh, that's what that was. Yeah, you should put on underwear. So yeah. Anyways tips From The Trenches folks. Sorry for the inside baseball. Well, this is this has been super duper helpful John. I know the book. The book is jam packed with so much more about both practical and research-based information on melatonin on high-dose melatonin on melatonin for mitochondria for anti-aging for the immune system. I mean other
If it's we kind of just scratch the surface on during this podcast, but it's a really good read. And what I'm going to do is is a link to the book which just came out in the show notes. If you go to Ben Greenfield fitness.com / melatonin Miracle, I'll also link to the my toe fast protocol article that John wrote in case any of you want to try that fast out and then I will I'll just link to the to John's website as well. If you guys want to go get any of his stuff and also
Link to the first episode that I did with John if you're like, who is this cat? I want to hear his background story because he flew up to my house and we spent a few days together before I decided he actually wasn't batshit crazy and was actually really smart about this stuff and I want to interview so it's all like to all that if you go to Ben Greenfield fitness.com. / melatonin Miracle, it's been grateful fitness.com. / melatonin Miracle John. Thanks for coming on the show man. This has been
fascinating. Yeah Ben. It's a pleasure pleasure.
Awesome. Awesome. Alright folks
Well, I'm Ben Greenfield and I am grateful and honored to have shared with you how to put things up your butt for an hour. So I'm now with my friend. Dr. John Lawrence from Sarasota Florida from been group of fitness.com. There's a really long outro have an amazing week.
Well, thanks for listening to Today's show. You can grab all the show notes the resources pretty much everything that I mentioned over at Ben Greenfield fitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me including the highly helpful Ben recommends page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones sleep digestion fat loss performance and plenty more. Please also know that all the links all the promo codes that I mentioned during
This and every episode help to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So when you listen in be sure to use the links in the show notes use the promo codes of that generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.
