Optimal mental this altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking and oils you a personal question. I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
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Well, hello boys and girls cats and dogs lemurs and squirrels. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. This is a special quarantine addition as has been common recently and it includes a conversation with my good friend Ryan holiday specifically, he had asked me if he could interview me about stoic philosophy how to apply it in our current uncertain times how I'm using certain tenets from people like Seneca and others to
My nerves and not just survive but perhaps benefit from this time in some fashion. So who's Ryan Ryan holiday on Twitter and Instagram at Ryan holiday is one of the world's foremost thinkers and writers on Ancient philosophy and its place in Modern Life. He's a sought after speaker and strategist and the author of many best-selling books including the obstacle is the way which I loved so much I was the producer of the audiobook. The obstacle is way ego is the enemy
and the daily stoic his books have been translated into more than 30 languages. His books have also been used by some of the top performing Sports coaches in the world many many names you would recognize also in the military and have sold close to 3 million copies worldwide. He lives with his family outside of Austin, Texas. You can subscribe to receive his writing at Ryan holiday dotnet and daily stoic.com. Ryan has also been a popular guest poster or guest author on my blog.
And you can find a number of those including stoicism 101 a practical guide for entrepreneurs on Tim dot block just searched his name Ryan holiday and it will pop right up. He was also the fourth ever guest on this podcast in the very beginning many years ago. His latest book is stillness as the key, which was an instant number one York Times bestseller and Wall Street Journal bestseller, please enjoy.
All right, so I was thinking so we last talked podcast related in January and ma'am life comes at you fast. I don't think like yeah,
the three great correctors of human population War pestilence and famine and we certainly have number two in abundance and scaling rapidly. So things have changed quite a lot since
January. Yeah, and I was
I was curious as someone who is a longtime fan of the stoics like yourself. How how have you been thinking about these sort of ancient ideas or ancient strategies for dealing with what is a very Timeless ancient problem.
The first thing I did was I looked into my stored belongings because I moved from California to Austin Texas three years ago.
Four years ago, but the vast majority of my stuff is still in storage and I had been sent as a gift a bust of Seneca that was still wrapped in bubble wrap.
So I tracked that down
opened it up and put it in an upstairs room where we tend to spend my girlfriend and I'm mornings so that I would at least see it and so I think that there are a whole lot of different ways to attempt to answer this and I will begin with putting
One like Senegal. Oh, he's a very crafty funny character. So he could spend a whole lot of time on him specifically sure Marcus Aurelius and so on as ideals that I on some level strive to emulate and I think the word ideal is important because it is very easy to beat yourself up for not being stoic or resilient or calm enough which in and of itself.
F is very unstow.
Her soul. So premeditated. Yo malorum rehearsing of the worst-case scenarios and combining that with the fear setting exercise that I can to do, which is really just a written practice of writing out the worst-case scenarios. What you could do to decrease the likelihood of them happening what you could do to decrease the damage if they do happen, etc, etc. And a big part of that for me has been deeply envisioning the worst-case scenarios and what they would not
Not just look like but feel like to observe and experience. I'll give a concrete example as is the case for many people and is the case for me. I have seen my stock portfolio drop. Let's call it 70% and value in certain cases and I had a good line of sight into coronavirus in its growth quite early on and began writing about it publicly.
In want to say second week of February, but I've been tracking it prior to that. So I was able to sell a portion of my stock. Let's just call it February 20 21, whichever was the closest week day trading day and then I decided to hold the rest now that could prove to be a terrible terrible terrible decision, right? This could be the worst financial decision of my life could be but after
lots and lots and lots of discussion and lots of number crunching a lots of thinking about I decided to to hold on what the belief that and in this case. I'm referring to Uber and then I was an early advisor to so it represents a disproportionate the high percentage of my net worth. Now. This video will be trapped in the Amber. So people will go back and say what a fucking idiot if it turns out poorly but the decision making process I felt was
Reasonable I felt like it was defensible. Now at the time the stock was trading around $40 price per share and the while I was talking to this much more experienced investor, and he said if you're going to hold this you need to commit to yourself to hold for at least five years and you should expect that. The stock will go down to 20 or 15 dollars now the time it was about 40 and this seemed not
Inconceivable but probably far off in the distance. Yeah, and he said when it hits 20 and 15 you are going to want to sell more than you do now and you need to prepare for that and that's what I did. So I really mentally committed to holding for an extended period of time I prepared myself for $15 a share little did. I know that something like two weeks later two and a half weeks later wood.
Actually hit $14 to share or to it. And that is the I have had many struggles throughout this coronavirus experience and considering the ramifications not just for me, but for my family I have family members in the service Industries for instance for the economy for people who are far less fortunate and I've I've I've struggled a lot in certain areas, but the areas where I have
Not struggled are the places where I have rehearsed to the extent possible what might happen such as that has been one of the most powerful stoic practices that I've been using in the last certainly two
months. Well, I've got a bunch of stuff. This is my Marcus Aurelius statue. I bought this when I was writing the obstacles the way so this this is from from what I read about it this this statues from 1840, so
So I like looking at it and then thinking like okay this stat this literal piece of stone survived through cholera epidemics smallpox epidemics polio the Spanish Flu the flu of the 1950s. So I like thinking about not just like okay who are your ideals? But then also how have humans gotten through like what sort of totems or reminders? Can you have that like, oh life.
I'm like, I'm talking to you from my office and I would my office was built in 1880. I think so like this office got through, you know, the Spanish Flu the first world war the second world war, you know the Cold War and if you know what I mean, I think like part of one of the things I think the stoics would ask us to do is like Zoom way out and sort of be reminded that like, hey as bad as it is like history does go on. There's no guarantee you and I will be a part of that.
That history but like you know what I mean, like will either yes. What are we won't yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm curious about the stock market thing because that's something I was going to ask you because one of the things I'm dealing with. I think the loss of version is a big part of it and it's hard for people to manage. What what I'm struggling with is kicking myself, so I wasn't as early as you but we you and I had some conversations and so I took it seriously. I went and stocked up on food I cut back on my
Travel I basically said like hey, I'm sort of a Buy and Hold kind of guy and don't have the the exposure that you do to some of those stocks. But but the thing I said is like hey, this is going to be bad but it's not going to be literally it's not going to be the worst decline in Market history, you know, I didn't think that so I didn't do anything. And so one of the things I'm struggling with is like regret, you know what I'm sure and I'm wondering sir.
Out of what you how you deal with some of that? Like are you mad that you didn't sell more? Like, how are you dealing with decisions you made that you can't undo but now you have a lot of time to sit and think about them.
Yeah. Well, that's the nature of all decisions, right? That means the as I understand the etymology of the word to decide a decision is like an incision. It is a cutting away. So once you have cut away now, that could be some fake attributed to Mark Twain turns.
Abe Lincoln type quote may be awesome while the fur on the internet but nonetheless that's that's what I've I've been told before. So all of our decisions are irreversible engine at least temporarily speaking. This is something that I didn't grapple with until reasonably far.
after
the
covid-19 and coronavirus came onto the main stage so to speak when so when I was campaigning in part for the cancellation of South by Southwest which brings four hundred thousand plus people to Yeah, Austin and it was be a I was just attacked by almost all sides and viewed as an alarmist as fill in the blank. I did not have trouble with that because that
Not like the data. We're on my side, but I was so focused and I think rightly so on my household on my family on my girlfriend and her family and ensuring that everyone were prepared that I did not I really wasn't looking at say investment as she has an example. So now there are and I insert part of the reason I'm not beating myself up is that I at the time at least in retrospect I was
Beating myself up for a while. Then I realized well do I even have the toolkit to have taken advantage of that effectively sure and by take advantage of that one might be talking about shorting the market in some fashion. Well, it turns out it's very easy to get your face ripped off trying to short the market and it's very very easy to lose that game or at least those bets and so I have I had to have friends who are
Career investors who have the tool kit to take advantage of something like this. I gave them a heads up that
I gave them a preview of what was coming early. So let's call it late January or early February and they missed those opportunities and they are beating themselves up because they do have the toolkit and the experience and yet they didn't take the actions. Whereas you have say some people who did like Bill Ackman at Pershing who I don't know make 2.6 billion dollars from short positions or something like that. Yeah.
Not bad. And so I feel as though my perspective on that specifically has been honed. If I could use it to dignified word through a lot of the startup investing I've done in the sense that it doesn't matter how many opportunities you miss it matters how many opportunities you take advantage of?
Does that make sense just like just like if you're putting together a book or a podcast or fill in the blank doesn't matter how many people don't get it matters how many people get it and and by that I mean if you are.
Really waiting for the fat pitches as Warren Buffett would say not necessarily with his style of investing. But if you're if you understand where your core competencies are and can focus on the most appealing opportunities, you can miss a lot of opportunities and net-net still do very very well. So I view
I try to keep that in mind and as you said a little bit earlier to zoom out and not look at this as a
an anomaly of a few weeks so it could be it could be that a year from now. We look back and the lowest low was in fact, whatever it was. I can't remember when the lowest low was March 12th or whatever. It was that might be off some but some early Mark something like that to 2020 at the same time. This could be and I suspect it will be on some level a marathon and not a Sprint so there will be more opportunities.
Is and then the reframing of the question for me relieves a lot of stress. So instead of asking why didn't I take advantage of X? What could I have done that I didn't do those are fruitless questions that just create a lot of stress if you were to ask how might I look for opportunities that do not have the time sensitivity of trying to time the stock market.
And one could say the futility of trying to time the stock market because even in a bear market and look, I'm not a professional public equities investors. So no one should take investment advice from me and I'm not giving investment advice. But the even in a bear Market, there are these sure rallies that can really hurt you not necessarily financially, although they can but psychologically right where you buy and then they Spike and right now the
Tildy meaning the simplistically the set of amount of up and down is just unbelievable. So you're going to get whipsawed no matter what and that can be super stressful. So I'm asking myself. Well rather than look at my God awful computer screen all day, like everybody else in the world. Look at all the same information and develop the like hubris and ridiculous.
Ian that I can somehow parse out unique conclusion right now that when millions of people are doing the same thing, what do I have access to where are my strengths? Where are my weaknesses? What can I do that? If this is a marathon or if this is going to last at least six months there are opportunities that might be able to take advantage of where do I have unique domain expertise or an informational Advantage right? So maybe that's I'm naked.
Sup, right but maybe that is realistic distressed real estate in Austin. Let's say since I'm here, right? Yeah, maybe that is any number of other things but it's probably not going to be figuring out whether Google or Berkshire Hathaway is going to move One Direction or another and how much they're going to move that is being the sucker at the poker table. I think this is so yeah, so that's that's maybe a very
Sure winded way of saying it but my belief is there are times when I make very fast good decisions, but I almost never make good rushed decisions. So if I feel rushed to make a decision because oh my God, it might go up like oh this my good this Summit might do that the likelihood of me making a bad decision is very high right and and the cost of undoing that bad decision can also be quite high so that that is
To say that if you have dry powder mean in cash. I think I don't think it's I don't think it's a terrible place to be right now. But again not I'm not a registered investment advisor nor my giving investment advice, but that's how I'm thinking about it personally
now and I think for me it's less like opportunities. I didn't take advantage of and steps that I should have taken to protect myself. And so that connects to another emotion. I think a lot of people are feeling that I'd be curious your
of stoic take on it. Give it like the South by Southwest example is a great one. So you and a handful of other people campaign. They shut down South by Southwest early who knows how much impact that had probably a significant amount because it was so early and then government officials in Texas and all over the country basically and this goes back to when I was first coming out of China sort of sat on that time. It's not like we use that time and built a bunch of ventilators and you know Chef so,
Power how are you processing or maybe you don't have any but for someone who has a lot of anger about how this went or is feeling anger. How do you suggest sort of what do you think the Stokes say about processing that anger because I do know that the Stokes did not tend to see anger as a productive or healthy emotion.
Yeah, I'd be curious to hear your take on that. So maybe I'll turn it around.
I also might might
default gear for decades was
Sanger yeah, but right now my focus is related to my locus of control. Yeah in the sense that my sort of sphere of control has been constrained down to the family effectively sure and my closest friends and ensuring to the extent possible. Those people are safe and prepared and financially capable to to cover their shirts and so on I am more active.
Of as you know, yeah the national level as well, but I suppose I'm in this is maybe cliched but it's I would think of the serenity prayer and you probably have the full text somewhere. But in essence the sort of strength to act on things that you can act upon and the wisdom to know that which you cannot act upon our influence and I would say also that I
I don't think that the time bought by canceling South by Southwest was used optimally yeah, but just in having that time and delay, there was a huge benefit right? There wasn't used optimally but I but I'm satisfied with that outcome because it is allowed us to see case studies like New York City that then spur local.
And state governments to do more so that they do not become the next case study and also in retrospect looking at for instance Mardi Gras in New Orleans. I was looking breaking lat spring break in Miami and Florida. I don't think those are uncorrelated to those two locations among a handful of others becoming the next hot spot. So I'm very confident in the
the the benefits of South by being delayed anger. Let me think about anger for a second because I am a somewhat. I'm a connoisseur.
Well, I was what I was thinking about anger is like okay in war you could see how anger is somewhat productive emotion. It's sort of a fury that you could direct at the enemy. So you might at least be able to make the argument that that it has some productive benefits. Obviously, the a pandemic doesn't care how much you hate it cancer doesn't care.
Names you call it right like so when you're fighting something like this. I think you always want to think about like is anger productive. Yes or no and then one of my favorite Marcus Aurelius quotes, it's a quote. We know from Europe Edie's the playwright, but he says why should you feel anger at the world as if the world would notice and so that's the other in like Trump doesn't care that you're angry at him. The governor of Texas doesn't care that you're angry, you know, like so and in fact if you are active in politics or
The national level you have to work with these people. So I think you're also seeing some of the governor's Democrat and Republican having to figure out oh, hey, if I if I yell at this person on television that might feel cathartic but then the next day have to call them and ask for ventilators or ask for the National Guard. So so I think with the stoics talk about is like is anger making things better or worse and 90% of the time. It makes it worse that doesn't mean that there wasn't something wrong and you can't be upset about it, but it
You've got to control that anger because there's a problem to solve.
Yeah, I agree and what I've also been trying to do in this this actually came out of an interview. I did some time ago with bows Miss st. John who is an incredible woman and one sort of philosophical tenets of hers is she underscored was applauding what you want more of not just sure berating.
What you want less of and I think the internet has enabled a lot of things including the dominance of the noise that is just bitching and moaning without any clear proposal for Solutions. So I've been spending the majority of my time reinforcing a particularly politicians. Yeah who are in the game? Everyone's playing a
I am sure you and I are playing games and we all play games. There are rules. There are Stakes there are rewards. Sometimes there are punishments and step number one is figuring out what game or games you are playing and one of the games politicians play is re-election. And so you have you have to think about if you want to persuade someone who is playing that game or not just persuade but to
Berate in some way or enable someone who is playing that game. You have to think about the incentives to play and to that end. I've been trying to support people who are making good decisions, even if they are late. Yeah if they are better late than never to visions and that's coming from someone who has had a lifetime of anger. So I do think the certainly the stone
Philosophy is and philosophers and writing has had a tremendous impact on my intellectual understanding of why anger can be counterproductive. Yeah, but it's really been getting on the playing field and trying to get shit done that is reinforced how imperative it is from a practical perspective. It's one thing to understand logically why anger is counterproductive and it's quite another
To not just keep your anger in check but to sort of sublimate it into.
A different area that you can strengthen right and I'm not the Paragon of this I still get pissed off but I think there's a
difference between being angry and doing things out of anger.
Yeah, totally. Yeah, you're allowed to feel angry. Look. I've I get pissed off and yeah, it's not so much a question of suppressing anger. It's more of a question of I think taking notice of what a
Is you so that over time fewer things hopefully anger you and one thing that's been very helpful to me also, and this is I can remember while I do remember one quote from Krista Tippett who has a podcast called on being which I believe I'm going to paraphrase it, but that that anger is fear shown publicly.
And so I try to at least as an exercise if I'm really angry to journal or sit and just think about for a moment If This Were traceable to a fear, what would the fear of be right says presupposing that it's accurate for the sake of a thought exercise sure, and because anger at least for me right anger is it's harder to wrestle.
In the sense that like head on treating anger as an object. It's harder for me to Grapple with and to disarm if that makes sense because I get I get where the story I tell myself that perpetuates anger is well, it's the principle. Yeah, Justice must be served.
Yes. This is dot dot dot dot and I got on my horse race. How dare they you know, I gotta do this. Yeah. I
get on my high my high horse of
Righteousness and you can justify a lot of stupid behavior that way but I don't quite know how to defuse it. Whereas if I can take the anger and turn it into fear or not necessarily turn it into fear but find a source that is really de fear. Then I can use fear setting or other exercises per minute audio malorum Etc to turn down the volume. Sure.
That's that's a step that I found very helpful.
Also, I'm here. I'm curious about fear because obviously you have your fear setting stuff which you talk about in your Ted Talk which which is probably very timely for people right now, but, you know having sort of two young kids you get this sort of pit in your stomach, right and I can sort of empathy people are really afraid right and I'd be curious
Was it two things one of you curious what you say to someone who is afraid and then the other thing which maybe you want to Riff on I was kind of thinking I was trying to think of so I was born in 87. So I was like what what scary things did my parents go through with kids which is actually really helpful. So it's like, you know Black Monday there was obviously 911. There's the the tech bubble bursting. There's the financial crisis. There's the end of the Cold War. I tried to go through and thing
They're two Wars in in the Gulf right like so that was something I did but I'm just curious. Like how are you thinking about fear? And what would you say to someone who who is being overwhelmed by fear?
It's a very good question. It's very timely question. I don't I don't I don't have confidence in a single answer for that kind of sense that I do think. It's it's very highly dependent on what you're afraid of and I have relatives who
restaurant jobs and so on and they're in very tough positions and I don't I wouldn't want I wouldn't want to make this purely an academic exercise and lose sight of the fact that fear is a gift in many cases it tells you what is wrong. So I don't want any way to seem like I'm detached from reality by making it her sort of mental gymnastics exercise. So so let's start there. I would say that and I've been telling
Self this so I can just just because you're feeling afraid I have I have for instance. I have older parents in poor health Corps in New York. Yeah that causes has caused me quite a bit of fear and anxiety and there's very little I can do and there's very little I can do and I can do a lot and I've very good contacts and I very good contacts in New York itself and
To tune almost complete extent there's next to nothing I can do if they get sick. Yeah, and that has produced a sense of feeling helpless or hopeless or in able to help that I'm very unaccustomed to yeah. And so what I've been telling myself and might be helpful to others is number one. It's okay.
To feel afraid like that doesn't make you flawed. That means that you're sort of evolutionary Machinery is intact and there's a lot of value to that. Right? And so I would say that you're not alone. You're not flawed millions of people tens of millions probably hundreds of millions are feeling the same thing right now, and there are reasons to be afraid.
It doesn't mean there's no it does not mean there's nothing you can do. You always have options right? You always have option. That's the other thing I would say and this is what I'm saying to myself. It's like you always have options. You may just not like those options. Right? Right. Sure, right. So for instance, if you look at the plight of some workers right now who have gone from kind of getting laid off from one job to say delivering groceries for fill in the blank app or
Company and want more personal protective equipment in order to do that job. It's a very very difficult situation to be in because number one no matter how much those companies would love to give you personal protective equipment right now health care workers don't even have enough PPE personal protective equipment. So you have then you might be inclined in such a position to say I have no choice you do have choices. They just may be very unattractive right? See ya.
You could stop working for a period of time. You could move in with your parents. You could ask a friend for a Lon you could sell some of the belongings you have that you have great sentimental attachment to or maybe your only car whatever it might be. I'm not saying these are all viable. I'm just brainstorming that they're fair or that they're Fair. Yeah, you have to I mean for me I just take Fair out of the equation. I think I don't think Fair except perhaps under the law as
Equal treatment of citizens. I don't think fair is a very I don't think it's an enabling concept. Right? Right, you
know, I think the Stokes the stove's would agree. It's a you know Epictetus because it's not things that upset us. It's our judgment about things and so fair is an opinion we have about an objective reality that we're in
right. So if I were trying to train a group of a thousand people to be a really effective like autonomous arm
Me like Neverland Army for handling like whether not just weathering but benefiting from the crisis I think in end if they were just computers like, you know Westworld hosts that I could program but on an
operating system. There are
certain Concepts and questions. I would remove I think that unfair is as true as it may be subjective.
Or even objectively it is a disabling word that even if you are a victim puts you into the passenger seat of life where you feel like you do not have options norcia or take actions and that is paralyzing and it's just going to compound your fear. So I would remove that and then there are questions right and I alluded to this second ago and I we're probably straying from the stoics, but I feel like I've been so
so infused on if you've heard of any of these large trees in the Pacific Northwest that have like 30 percent salmon DNA from salmon being dropped off bears and so on they become these hybrids, I'd feel that's maybe too long a story to explain now, but I believe the Radiolab as a good episode on this but the the wood Wide Web if you want to look it up WOD, but the point of that extremely confusing
Is that I feel like stoicism from having Reddit and ingested it and ruminated on it and reread it. And so on over the years is kind of infused my thinking yeah to a very large extent. So the then there are questions of and this definitely Harkens back to certainly some of the moral letters to looky-loos if we want to cite some of the sources
which by he wrote in difficult times, you know anybody and you know it
End of his career. He was threatened by a tyrant. Like he wasn't writing this in in a fun. Joyful
vacation. No. No, it wasn't and that's that's Molly is going to Molly's my dog is in the habit of going apeshit these days Molly feeling stressed because coronavirus I know she's actually she's actually pretty stoked ever humans home. But I digress this is this is audio/video Veritas a quarantined Edition.
So I was going to say that if you look at say one of senecas letters where he's composing this letter and it's somewhat petulant Lee written which I find hilarious sure as are many of his letters. But what one of them he's writing as he's discussing the suppose. You would call it like a spa / gym underneath him. I don't know if you remember this right where you can hear this is the this is mopping of Flesh and the grunting of
Lifting weights and all this and it's open Stillness that with that letter. I love that
one. Yeah, it's a it's a great letter. It's a really really great letter.
So this may not be the perfect citation. But the point I was going to make is that the question I was asking myself early on for me and my family and it's the question you should be asking initially was how do we how do we ensure we don't die and physically financially, how do I ensure that?
Clan doesn't die and that sounds traumatic. I don't think I don't think it's going to seem that dramatic. I mean aliens are the stakes. Those are the stakes right? I mean, there are 85 refrigerated double-wide trailers that were just brought in to New York. Yesterday is temporary mortuaries, right? I mean, this is real and I have relatives in number of hot spots. So these are these are steaks. Yeah. Now what I'm trying to
To ask since I have checked off at least for the time being the lower rungs of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Yeah, and not and not everyone is in a position to do that. Nonetheless. I do think this question is really worth asking and I owe my girlfriend credit also for reinforcing this because she's very good at this and that is how can you make the next three to six months some of the most enjoyable or productive of your life?
Or or if that's too much pressure, right? You can phrase a different ways. You know, how can you make the next three to six months something you look back upon as a sacred time that you really treasure not just survive. Right? And I was kind of like and I'd look I'm not whatever I'll use it. But I heard of Nelson Mandela Story Once from Tony Robbins, actually who asked he asked Nelson Mandela during his time in
Prison, how did you survive something along those lines? And he said he said oh, I wasn't surviving I Was preparing and I think that that type of question not how I can survive how you can survive in a sense is sort of like extreme frugality and I've had my cup of coffee. So I'm off to the races, but it's kind of like extreme frugality and sense that if you're trying to find Financial.
Freedom through one tool that is Extreme frugality. You have a finite ceiling to that. Yeah, right like you make let's just call it for Simplicity $1,000. I'm making this up thousand dollars a week and you can cut from that. You may make some Faustian Bargains and got things that materially detract from your quality of life. But nonetheless the most that you could possibly subtract is $52,000 a year.
Yeah, right. This is ignoring taxes and everything. Whereas if you're building a business you have or you have income generation and you're also focused on that you have a much broader scope of options sure and similarly if you ask how can I survive like survive as a binary pass-fail? Yeah, and I feel like that places a ceiling on the options that are visible to you if
Makes any sense now. So yeah, so when I ask how could I most in and I'm going to use a word here that might bother people but if you were to ask like how could I most profit and benefit from the next three to six months? Like what is this an opportunity to do that? I would never otherwise do so. I've been for instance like getting rid of clothing that I've had for years and cleaning up the garage and doing the stuff that seems so mundane, but it will it would otherwise
is not get done. So I'm trying to ask myself If This Were a sacred time and that what can I do or not do that will lead me say we're out of this in a year to some extent to look back and say wow. I'm so glad we had that time in a sense because it allowed me ABC as opposed to shit. I didn't realize that was going to be so valuable and so many ways and I was blind to it at the time.
The dichotomy that I use that Robert Greene gave me and I have this written around somewhere. I was going to show it to you but he says alive time or dead time. What will it be? And I think that's how like whether you're whether this quarantine goes for two more weeks obvious is going to go much longer than that or whether it goes for two more years. All you know, is that you have that block of time. What you do control is how you use that time and what you get out of it. I have one thought on fear at there's a Hebrew saying that I love
Of it's from the 1800s, but it goes the world is a narrow bridge and the important thing is to not be afraid. The point is when you're walking on a narrow balance beam or a narrow bridge. The one thing you can't do is be scared because it'll mess you up and you'll fall and I think that's sort of the predicament. We're in it's not fair. Nobody chose it it's not our fault, but you got to cross this bridge now and this fear fear as you said, there are
Some evolutionary reasons but courage is going to be important. Right and that's one of those sort of course to have virtues which is like and there's another quote I love from Faulkner. He says you can be scared. It's okay to be scared. You can't help that she says, but but but don't be afraid. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think you have to you have to keep going that's just the reality so you might as
well. Yeah, if a frayed is being paralyzed, right? So for instance has a few more comments on fear. Yeah because you just reminded me of a few things.
Things so and I this could be a Pocketful but I believe based on the sources. I had at the time. I've no idea what they are that this is true. So Dean Martin now that name may not mean much to a lot of people but in his day Dean Martin was the consummate Entertainer sort of top-tier top 5 most recognizable names in the United States, probably. Yeah, and he used to vomit he would get so nervous and one could say
It that he would vomit before every performance Mike Tyson same story and his hit the trainer who really made Mike Tyson Mike Tyson Custom Auto you can find video or at least audio of custom auto saying this he would say the hero and the coward feel the same thing. They feel the fear. It's what the bureau does that makes him different and sure Tyson was also terrified.
I mean terrified me not be the right word, but fearful before he got into the ring one of the most dominant boxers of all time sure and if they can't get a immunity bracelet for fear, she's unreasonable to expect yourself to and I would also say if this is helpful to anybody is very specific to the United States, but the United States at this point in time we're recording this April 1st. Happy April Fools.
And right now New York is the the hoobae of the US the global hoobae effectively. It's the new Global epicenter will be this is going to continue. The United States is going to be the largest hot spot unless things change dramatically in Russia. It's probably going to be the largest hot spot in the world for some time to come and the prior to Pearl Harbor what the Strategic belief on the part of the Japanese was that by Design?
Destroying the Pacific Fleet the morale and capabilities of the US would be completely sure shut down or paralyzed for period of time what instead happened when you know, the bear got stabbed in the eye with a stick meaning the u.s. Is that within a very short period of time that would have previously been inconceivable. Suddenly. We were producing more tanks than civilians in all of Japan. I know that's an exaggeration.
But the yeah, yeah, he cut the capacity of the United States when it is forced into a corner or feels as though it's been forced into a corner through extreme states of duress and crisis.
Now, it's all gone to bed again are
truly staggering right and we've fucked this up so many ways. It's really hard to overstate how badly we've screwed this up in terms of Supply changement Chain management and so on but nonetheless
Yes, I think give it six months. Things are going to look very very different and yeah like it or not. The global economy is dependent on the US in large measure, right? So not that it's too big. Not that it's too big to fail every Empire comes to its close. But but at this point in time it is in everyone's best interest that the United States not collapse almost everyone's best. Yes, so right Russia has
As to sell China has products to export and so on and so forth. Right? And so so I am I'm very confident that crisis will overcome incompetence if that makes any sense and I'm very confident that things will get worse. Yeah, the economy is going to get sort of kicked in the nuts for
For a while. This is not going to be a 1/4 of fair at all. And the u.s. Is going to have to take very extreme what might be seen as Extreme Measures to have any chance of survival economically speaking up. So that gives me a that gives me a degree of optimism if that makes sense that that gives me a degree of optimism. Maybe it will prove unfounded. I hope that's not the case. Yeah, but that also
So has the example of Pearl Harbor and it's not the perfect example, it's just a very easily grasped visual example, I think shows and there are many examples of this what the US can do in times of Crisis. So I'm that gives me some degree of optimism as well.
So and I'm sure you've got to go so as far as this sort of a place to close because I think this ties in well,
To the fear and I think it ties well into stoicism what I love about the stoics in particular like the stoics and the epicureans were actually much closer philosophically than people thought writing and and your you love the good life. You have Epicurean Tendencies, but what I what I think what I think what I suspect draws you to the stoics and ultimately draws me to the stoics and I think why there is this threat of stoicism going not just in the Roman Empire but to the founding of
Erica to the u.s. Civil War to a lot of the great movements in history is the stoics felt that we were obligated to participate in public life to serve the common good to help other people. Most of the greatest stoics were famous not because of what they wrote but because the actual heroism that they did in their life and I mean Marcus really specifically is the Emperor for 15 years of the antonine plague. He now he doesn't flee Rome at one point famously is one of my
stories in all of history as the Roman economy is collapsing under the weight of this pandemic. He he he forgives most of the debts owned to the Empire and then he goes through the Imperial Palace and he marks down the treasures owned by the emperor for sale on the palace Lon to like sort of get the economy going. So this to me is what like I think this goes to your point when when stuff breaks down real leader.
Stand up and so at maybe as a place to close for people who are afraid but want to put that energy somewhere productive. What do you advise people as far as how can they help? How can they make a difference what and and what good can individuals do you know, obviously there's a lot of we all have different resources and skills. But what would you advise people to think about as far as making a difference and using this as an opportunity to to do that?
That sort of ultimate stove
Duty.
Yeah, thanks for the question. That's a good question. I want to I want to just make it an observation first. And that is you basically have the trifecta of books for understanding and handling this entire chapter of our history right behind your head for those people who aren't watching the video you have and I'll read from the bottom up. You've got the Black Swan you have is it the 48 Laws? I can't
really afford. It was the 48
Laws of Power and then Mastery so the Black Swan by and
And then I have meditations right here and oh it and then meditation
breast. Yeah, see if but the Black Swan perhaps just as much so Fooled by Randomness by NN taalib tal EB I think in parque Central anti fragile, but the Black Swan or Fooled by Randomness specifically, I think help to explain what we are contending with and why it is so difficult for humans to grasp what has
Happening and properly prepare for it. So I think that is that is worth reading then if you want to understand how seemingly confusingly and irrationally different leaders are behaving and how polarity is affecting our response to this in the United States and elsewhere not just here you look at the results the same story then the 48 Laws of Power do a great job of explaining that and then if you take Mastery and the 48 Laws of Power
And those can act as a possible road map for the abilities you want to develop in this sacred pause that is being provided to you not inflicted upon you necessarily. I understand there are some very serious costs, but that's just a way that you could plausibly or try to frame it. If you want to feel enabled not disabled. Those are three fantastic books for the for the quiver. I'm just going to say that first as far as stoic / civic duty and like you
I said many of these stoics per se if we if we dis if we just put aside the best-known names if we put aside Marcus Aurelius we put aside Epictetus. We put aside Seneca guns on you still have George Washington Thomas Jefferson. These people are not known as stoics and yet they they were very much informed and directed by yeah much of stoic philosophy and
To the extent that George Washington, I guess at Valley Forge had the troops perform. I'm blanking on the name of the play but it was a play about it was Kate. Oh, right. Yeah, Kato to boost morale and continue the fight and the I want to make a comment in response to something you said and then I'll answer super directly. And that is the I do have Epicurean Tendencies. I find the f
The epicureans to be of great interest, but what allows me to tend to the Garden to drink my wine and derive great pleasure from simple things is the safety net that is stoicism for me. I do not think as someone who may be a story for another time, but had some very traumatic experiences in childhood and have has always been hyper-vigilant without
out stoicism and tools that are complementary to stoicism. I don't feel like I have the safety net underneath me with which I can then walk across that narrow bridge. Yeah, and that is what allows the epicureanism so it really is the precursor and necessary antecedent to those things as far as helping. How can you help there are two different levels of answers. The first would be
My most common recommendation and that is don't try to save the world help the people around you. Yeah, and think of if you are fortunate enough to be in a stable financial position, even if you are suffering financial hardship that you have time think of how you could reach out to people and offer your support that support could be a weekly Zoom or Skype chat with a handful of friends who are all sharing.
Maltese it could be reaching out to your Barber. I'm bald so I don't have Barbara but reach out to your Barber or your local coffee shop owner or fill in the blank someone to offer to help in some fashion because you know, they are also suffering from financial hardship that could be paying them some amount of money. If you have the financial means
it's a gift card and then cash it like by six months of hair cuts in advance, right?
It could be something like that. It could also be simply reaching out to them and asking how can I help and more often than not because I've done this with say the dog walker who I've used his just fantastic and I want them to survive this the say house cleaners who helped with my home. I've reached out with these offers and as to how can I help would you like me to pay in advance? Would you like to Simply grab me continue?
Paying most of them have declined but the act of asking how can I help and then possibly offering if you have the means or the space is tremendously, I think reassuring in times of uncertainty and the gift doesn't have to be Capital. The support doesn't need to be money. It could just be a group cohesion and people feeling that they have
Safety net of sorts in your offer acting locally in that sense makes I think it's tremendously compelling if you try as I have done for the last few weeks to figure out how to save the world or early on just how to stem the tide for the United States to buy time. There were certain things that I could do say as it related to South by Southwest and so on but I am in a very unusual position and I have a large platform. Yeah for others to feel compelled.
Held to do something like that is I think very unproductive because it's going to be like shouting into gale-force winds. It's going to be very frustrating and I don't think terribly healthy for people to try so act locally number one. If you are looking for outfits and Ventures that are focused on this crisis and you want to contribute in some fashion. There is there is a go fund me campaign going on right now.
Depending on when this is published which is a collaboration. I'm blanking on the exact organizations Flex Port I know is one of them Flex board.com or Flex port dot-org for such donate, but they along with a number of organizations and put together a large GoFundMe campaign. If you just search Flex Port go find called
Frontline Frontline responders fund. That's right. It's called yeah, that's
right. So Frontline responders fund. I would say appears to be well vetted.
I've had conversations with the CEO Flex port and feel confident in their integrity at this point. I don't know them that well, but they certainly have checked a lot of good boxes. There's another organization which may be part of the same maybe not called operation masks operation masks dot org is co-founded by a number of people I've had some contact with and that is this landscape is very rapidly changing and access.
you personal protective equipment and other items is in a state of constant flux particularly since we have States competing against one another and driving prices up I mean the entire thing is quite a fucking spectacle of messiness but I do think the you said the Frontline responders fun this is GoFundMe Campaign which includes Flex port and operation masks are two that have kind of checked a few
boxes for me I can't vouch for either a hundred percent but there is a lot of noise and those are two that seem to have cut through the noise so those would be another two options food
banks yeah I was going to say food banks anything you can do to prove that people from having to leave their houses or go to the store is very
important yeah so food banks I think our another another good option for helping say locally or helping where you
grew up yeah yeah we're
both so that those would be a few
That come to mind and you know last but not least I would say one way you can help is commit to be constructive and consider consider perhaps experimenting and I'm considering doing this myself because I think right now it could be particularly valuable something like the 21-day no complaint experiment that that will bow and Bo wwen wrote about long ago in believe. It was his first book.
But this if you just search 21-day no complaint experiment. It'll come right up. I do feel like complaining is easy. It's in Vogue. It's seductive. It is reinforced socially and it for me at least is utterly counterproductive. I think that complaining and anger are
Similar in the sense that I can't recall the attribution for this but that the there's an expression as it relates to anger that you know a vessel that holds acid as is damaged more than anything it pours acid upon and if you are the vessel for anger or complaining I think it does more damage to you than that which you point it at and for that reason if you want to improve or maintain or improve.
Prove your health your well-being and your ability to function as a contributor and Society. I think a no complaint experiment goes a long way. And by the way, if you address complaining which is easier to identify and measure sometimes than anger. There is a very significant carryover effect into decreasing anger. Very very large carryover effect.
T' so those would be a few things that come to mind as as possible actions people could take
yeah, and I think for daily stoic we've been doing this sort of a live-time dead time challenge. Like how are you going to use this time? I think that's the so it's locally, you know, what can you do for your family? What can you do for your neighbors? You know, if you have old people that live near you what can you get them? So they don't have to leave their house right like but then I think also, you know, this is now a time for entrepreneurs and business people like
If everyone is sitting at home watching Netflix for the next three months that scares me worse economic damage from that then if people are at home being productive thinking about you know what I mean? Like I think that there is it a real economic damage to the World grinding to a halt. It's not just hey, you can't go to the pizza restaurant anymore, but it's like if you cease working and you see you see thinking and you cease taking care of the people that you're supposed to be taken care of.
There's going to be even longer lasting residue from this as well.
Yeah, I agree. I think this is a you know, an unfortunate and special set of circumstances that can really Foster a sense of community where Community has largely broken down. Yeah, right. I mean itís where weakest
says David Brooks has
said, yeah, and I mean, I remember when I moved from San Francisco to Austin and my first neighbors approached me and like knocked on my door.
And I feel like in a karate stance because it was so shocking to me since that never happened in San Francisco. And right I've had more contact at a distance with sure my neighborhood in the last few weeks then in the last few years and I do think there's there's something really unusual about that that will disappear it will or at least dissipate. Let me say that it'll dissipate once
- business gets back on track and we have a we have a very unusual window of time in which as you put it and I really like that expression that you said this from Robert Greene the alive time dead time. Yeah, what could you speak to just for my benefit since I have and I don't remember reading about this what what characterizes alive time versus dead time or how does he talk about it?
So actually came up when I was thinking about
Out leaving my job to become a writer I had about a year left that I owed American Apparel. And so I said Robert, you know, I'm thinking about leaving to become right or what should I do? And he said this year for you could be alive time or dead time you could show up to work every day, you know cash your paycheck, you know sit at your desk or you could learn as much as possible. You can meet as many people as possible. You could the day you leave your job be have all the research and preparation that you need done for your book, right?
So and so I actually ended up writing about this and you go is the enemy but I tell the story of Malcolm X Malcolm X goes to prison is at this point is known as Malcolm little he's sentenced to about 10 years. He spends every day in that prison cell Reading Writing studying. He basically gives himself a college education in this prison. And so I think you know Nelson Mandela spent a far worse time in prison than any of us are going to be spending during this.
Teen Shakespeare Isaac Newton, they all spent time in quarantine, you know fleeing the plague, but how they chose to use that time to write some of their greatest works to develop relationships to come up with theories about the universe, you know to study to learn to get in touch with themselves. That's alive time.
Yeah, Isaac Newton had one of the most productive years of his entire life course. Yeah,
and so I think I think
That's what's so beautiful and haunting about history is like, oh this actually isn't knew I was telling you about that the statute this is another thing I keep on my desk. This is a penknife that's from I think the the year 200 ad kind of like this night
be speaking a prison. It looks like for those people who are watching the video shoot. It looks like a shiv that you would make out of a mattress
coils, but you just think about the amount of time that human beings have spent doing exactly what we're
Doing which is I can't go outside a lot of Commerce and business has ground to a halt this situation is not new at all. The question is some of those people use that time productively Isaac Newton Shakespeare and then far more people other people were in the exact same quarantine as William Shakespeare and they did not write Macbeth, you know, and so that that's that's the one you don't control that you're in this situation this
Folks would say but you do control how you respond to the situation what you use it for and I think that's ultimately what that's that's what we should all be focused on here here. All right, let's do on close up there. Yeah, let's close. They're all right, man. Yeah awesome. Appreciate it.
Yeah for sure and I just I mentioned the fear setting for people who want to check check that out. Then just go to Tim top log forward slash Ted. It's also a talk, but the text can be quite helpful as a
supplement.
And you have to exercise their right? You sure - oh, yeah, it's all
there. There's nothing there's no pay wall. There's no there shouldn't be any kind of block if there's a pop-up you can just close it.
But no, I mean you actually show the like it's more than just watching the talk you like give people how to do the exercise so it's probably tell them I give
them all the instructions and examples in the text since this is something I use myself as well.
Awesome, man. Really? Appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure get to see. All right. Yeah good to see you,
too.
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