Welcome to the weekend edition of The Daily stoic each weekday. We bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient stoic something that can help you live up to those four stoic Virtues Of Courage Justice wisdom and Temperance and here on the weekend. We take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview stoic philosophers. We reflect we prepare
are we think deeply about the challenging issues of our time and we work through this philosophy in a way that's more possible here when we're not Russian to worker to get the kids to school when we have the time to think to go for a walk to sit with our journals and to prepare for what the future will bring.
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You have it on demand access whenever you want. Go to the Thera gun.com stoic right now. Get your Jen fourth era gun today faragonda th er, a GU n.com stoic. Hey, it's Ryan holiday. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Show
podcast sort of probably not what you would expect but I would say the thing that I get the most angry emails about that surprise me.
Is angry notes from seemingly. Nice people who are very upset that I have dared to occasionally use profanity these f word a couple times and obstacles away couple times and you go as the enemy actually don't do it anytime in the daily still at the book because there was some concerns from Christian bookstores. They just sort of asked if we could avoid it and it didn't end up being a sort of a conflict with the message. So that happened but anyways occasional doing an Indian.
Or
someone read a book. Anyways, you get like long notes. Why did you do this? You know it totally destroys your message. How could you you know, what's wrong with you? Sometimes I point them to Epictetus is little quote that when we are upset we have to realize our mind is complicit in the offense.
Although I know the point and as I've matured and gotten better as a writer, I've tried
to curse. I tried to not curse less but only do it when it actually helps the
ain't not sort of instinctively naturally, but when I do interviews or I'm talking to friends, I sort of revert back to my regular Northern California teenage boy self. All of which is to say if you are one of those people you will probably not like this episode. My conversation is with my friend Mark Manson author of The subtle art of not giving a fuck and everything is fucked up book about hope I also has a great audible book love is not enough which you can check out and
And a great blog where he's written all sorts of essays over the years you started at like me as an internet writer much more successfully as an internet writer than myself some some incredibly viral blog posts over the years that have done millions and millions of views. Anyway, Mark is a great guy fascinating thinker true philosophy nerd I would say, you know, you could talk to him about schopenhauer or Contour much more obscure philosophers whose names I won't embarrass myself trying to pronounce.
Most of all, I think at the core of marks of those two books I mentioned for Mark there is a strong thread of Zen Buddhism running through his works. Even though he's a very western guy there is that sense of Zen Buddhism. And I know that's what Mark practices and we touch on that a little bit in the interview was great to talk to Mark we talk about not just what success feels like how you get it how somewhat anti-climactic it can be, but we talked about the true message of his
X which is not about not caring but it's about what the stoics talked about. It's
about caring about the right things. And actually Mark
asked me to blurb the subtle art when it came out and that was that was what I said in my putter that that's what stoic philosophy and philosophy is really about thinking really hard about the things worth thinking about and finding out what things are worth caring about and that that is the essence of the pursuit that we're all on and that is also the recipe the formula for a good and
Happy life, and so I hope you enjoy my conversation with Mark. I hope you are not to triggered by the curse words, and if you are I got to tell you it's not very still if you got to get over it. You can't let a word and these are just words offend you and make you so upset because they don't mean anything and just relax man. Just relax. I can't ever imagine hearing someone cursing being so mad that I need to send them an email about it. But you do you I'll do me which is mostly going to involve me saying and thinking.
King whatever I want and you can do the same. So anyway, here's my interview with Mark Manson enormously best-selling author runaway,
best-selling author and credible hit there with subtle art and everything is fucked has been a massive hit as well as great guy fellow Metalhead and sort of a writing pier and friend and collaborator and great overall. Dude who I try to see every time I am in New York City. He's great guy to share a steak with so I hope that familiarity lends itself well to this conversation,
So I thought we'd get all the fuck's out of the way at the beginning of the interview. One of the things that I because we have mutual fans and mutual friends. And sometimes I see people get it wrong or correct me if I'm wrong, but the premise of the book especially the first book is not to give no fucks. It's to give the right amount of fucks about about the right fucking things.
Exactly. I mean it's it's impossible to not give a fuck like if you're alive and Cynthia and conscious you have to care about something like that's just a fundamental state of being human. So there is no such thing as not giving a fuck and so the question then becomes what is fuck worthy. What deserves your Fox and you know, that's the ultimate question. That's like, you know, what is valuable in life? What's not? Well, I think that's what's so
People Breeze right over it in the subtitle, but that it is a subtle art is to me the most operative part. Obviously that the f word gets the attention because it's sort of right there and it's so unusual in a book title, but it's difficult to know what you should care about and it's difficult to know how much or how little you should care and it's not a science. It's not your book is not a prescription of like here's 15 things to care about and here's
15 things not to care about and actually sometimes you have to care about this thing and sometimes you can't care about it at all. That's like the weird messed-up nests of it. Yeah. It's a moving Target. You know, it's the things that are important to you when you're 20 probably shouldn't all be important to you when you're 30 or when you're 40 and the things that are important to you when you're 40 probably shouldn't be as important to you when you're 60, like it's we evolve we change and so it's
It's not a thing you ever solve for yourself. You don't ever solve the value question for yourself. It's a question that you have to consistently keep asking over and over and over again so that you can adjust when I think it's I think our profession brings that to the Forefront to in that different books by different authors at different times have totally different sort of priorities or values or things to focus on
on and so like when I talk to authors or people too because I hear this in the startup world all the time to like people will have no idea what's actually important to them about this thing. They just work on for like two or three years were spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on or quit their job to focus on your like so what does success look like to you and they're like, well, it's like a little bit of this thing and some of this thing and then all these other things and it's like they don't they haven't actually done the work to say like,
What is important to me? And why am I doing it? Yeah, and one of the things that I talked about a lot in my books is that if you don't sit down and consciously ask these questions of yourself and answer these questions for yourself. Then you simply adopt other people's answers to these questions. So you kind of our default State when we don't think about these things is to just look around us and see what you know, our friends and family care about
And just assume that those are the important things and kind of act on them on autopilot. And that generally doesn't that's not a good long-term strategy. No, it's a really bad one. I mean obviously I know your sort of a philosophy nerd and this a philosophy podcast, but this is that you essentially just described the life's work of René Girard that we have medic desire when we because we don't know what we want. We just want what other
People why and this locks Us in this weird keeping up with the Joneses arms race competition to win contest that we do use your word don't actually give a fuck about yeah and it's and it seems to be something that's very much kind of hardwired into us, you know, it's one thing. I tell people, you know, one of the one of the most common questions I get. I'm sure you get it all the time to is his people come to me and they say like, how do I stop caring so much?
What other people think and I might actually you probably shouldn't stop caring what other people think you know, it's there's a word for somebody who doesn't care what other people think and that word is psychopath and you know, like that's not the goal here the goal. It's not the stop caring what other people think like we're always going to be influenced by the people around us, but the goal is to strike that healthy balance between technology and paying attention to
The values of the people around us the value of society around us, but then also developing that ability may be developing that circuit breaker of like, okay. This one thing is important enough that I'm willing to go against the grain or I'm willing to upset the people around me and take a stand for it a I think it's a learned skill and be it's very very difficult to know when it's appropriate to do that and when it's not know and it's weird how Timeless that
Liz right so in the ancient world, you have the cynics diogenes the cynic being the sort of penultimate example, and he gives like no Fox he gives away all his possessions. He lives in a barrel he dresses in rags. I mean famously he like masturbates whatever he feels like he's like an animal basically right? Like he he gives no care about society and there is some like sort of almost Brazen something brazenly and
Firing about that because I keep calls into question. So many of the things that we care about that are maybe not that important but obviously Society could not function if we all live that way and what's weird is that and this is like a less explored thing because this the stoics have their own reputation, but the Stokes were kind of like formed in opposition to that idea. They were like this guy's right about some things. But but and then again to use your word there, like maybe there's something maybe there's a more subtle version of this and
So for the stoics it was like yeah, you should wear clothes and you should try to succeed at your job and it is nice to have money or influence. They just they just tried to have these things I think in perspective. So, yeah, it's it wouldn't work if nobody cared about anything and you probably shouldn't be actively trying to care about nothing. I think it's just it's like as you said it's like being consciously aware of what you
About and why you care about it? Yeah, and it's funny because you know, I loved the story of diogenes when I learned it in school and University and but at the same time like that whole attitude it strikes me as like a very, you know, you and I are both 90s kids. So it strikes me was like, you know the goth in high school who like hates everything but then you realize that like, it takes a lot of effort to subvert every social Norm, you know, and so
I look at diogenes and it's like okay. Yeah, he doesn't give a fuck on one level. He doesn't give a fuck about social pressures or anything, but he on the other end it like it actually takes a lot of conscious effort to continually subvert every expectation over and over and that in a sense is actually giving a lot of fucks about social pressure. And so that it's this weird thing where you know, you don't want to be on one end of the spectrum you have like a pure conformist who
Only does things that the people around them will approve of and then on the Other Extreme you have a pure nonconformist who by rejecting everything the people around them. Does he still dependent on the people around him? Just as much as the conformist is like there's still a lack of independent thought or independent valuation of experiences in life. Well, yeah, and then to borrow another philosophical concept from one of the rival schools what you just described is
Out of the the Aristotelian mean between those two extremes which is giving just the right amount of fucks about the right thing. Yeah, it's funny all these things never change. Yeah. No. No, it's like like you can't be an anti-social crazy person. And at the same time you can't be convinced that status and competition and what everyone else is doing is the most important thing the world basically you just have to be a normal.
TN person that that has like a like a little voice inside of them that they're in touch with. Yeah, and it's I think again I think of it in terms of like kind of that circuit breaker situation of
Being very conscious of when to go in each Direction. Like there are you know, like this this actually comes up a lot and like investing, you know, there are times where you should go with the crowd and then there are times where you share the crowds, right? Yeah, because it's you know, 70 80 percent of the time the crowds going to be right but there are there are you know, a minority of instances where you need to have both the insight and the emotional strength.
You consciously turn against the crowd and become contrarian and it's very hard to know when that is and then even if you know when it is, it's very hard to actually like pull the trigger and do it. No, I I think we talked about this last time I saw you but I feel like Malcolm gladwell's newest book is all about this talking with strangers. It's sort of like, when do you default to Convention? When you violate convention, would you listen to the voice when you ignore the voice and it's an extraordinarily difficult thing and often as a society, we sort of lie.
Ionized that the people that went against the grain but we zoom out and what we like like Bezos said this about Peter teal during the election and and it's a it's a tricky thing but he goes contrarians are almost always wrong. And so if you're a contrarian and you're just like nope, nope, nope, nope. Nope. No. No you sit and you end up being right about some big things Society will be like how brilliant they are and we conveniently forget that you were, you know, like out to lunch on like everything else before and after this.
Yeah, there's a survivorship bias. You know, it's like for every brilliant person, you know, like like Peter teal, you know, there's probably a thousand other people who were contrary in about something and just like fell on their face horribly, but we did we never hear about them speaking of outliers. So your your first book comes out and it's just like all like, you know, just as big as big as a book can conceivably be and not
Be named like JK Rowling or Dan Brown or something, right? Yeah, and and so you and I in in I did it in ego and you did it in in subtle art. We were both talking about Dave Mustaine and you and I were just texting about him the other day the the lead guitarist and founder of the band Megadeth who previously had been in Metallica and and how what's fascinating about mustaine's life and I don't know where he is now, but but for many many years even though met
That was a huge fan. And as a lot of great music would be a rock a rock star in a new an enormous success by any metric was too deeply unhappy and bitter because he's comparing himself to other people. I'm just curious like in with the success you had in that book. Were you able to feel that? That's what it was or what were you comparing yourself? What are you walking in your like? Why am I in the number two spot in the airport books to it like
Do you know what I mean? Does the mind let you be happy or or was there a part of you that was questioning and criticizing and wanting more it's it always wants more. I mean it I mean there was a lot of Joy especially early on you know, and I think what I discovered is is stuff like this. It has a lot more to do with trajectory then like kind of absolute position, you know, so I noticed that because when the book came out it started out at like six or seven.
eight on the New York Times list and like I was elated I you know, I went out and I celebrated with friends and called my parents and all this stuff and it's slowly climbed up and every kind of increment of that climb was a new level of excitement and joy, but then at some point that trajectory has to turn the other way or you know, there's noise it bounces up and down and you know, you've a bad sale sales week or bad sales month and so sure enough, you know within a few months some of that stuff set in you know, I
I walk into an airport and see it was like number four and I might be like this is bullshit. Like they should they should put this on the front table. What the fuck are they thinking you know, and yeah and you have to just you have to catch yourself in those moments. And I guess this is the important thing too is it's not it's not only catching yourself in those negative moments of I guess like the negative kind of irrational negative thoughts but also catching yourself in those irrational positive moments as well. I think one of the things I did
Good job, in terms of like handling the success of subtle art was was not taking either my positive self-talk or my negative self-talk too. Seriously, you know, there are moments when you experience a trajectory like that where you start telling yourself, you're like man, I am the next JK Rowling, you know, I am I am the next Stephen King people just don't know it yet and you have to like sit yourself down and be like, alright, let's talk.
This is this is not going to end. Well, if you keep saying this to yourself, it's a very surreal kind of wild experience, you know, and then and in between all that in between trying to navigate all your kind of bullshit self-talk. You're also just trying to appreciate this experience and understanding like hey this this most likely this is never going to happen again in your career. So enjoy it it's weird because there's a there's an element of it. That's
Little bit empty to you know what? I mean, like anti-climactic like I remember when when when obstacle hit number one, which is like my books have been successful. But but what's what's been weird for my books is that they've always sold consistently and they've gotten a lot of critical sort of they've gotten some critical success. I haven't gotten other kinds of critical success, but they've gotten sort of recognition from interesting influential people and then they've sold well, but the the sort of bestseller recognition is always
been delayed or a bit weird. Like I took obstacle five years to hit number one took nine books to even make it on the New York Times list and then the weirder one was even though my books have sold consistently since they've come out. I've never really had a run on the list like the most I've ever done would be like one or two weeks in a row and weirdly like the daily stoic has been sort of On The Wall Street Journal list like since March so, so anyway,
What was weird about each one of those things is they're sort of conspicuously lacking and so you feel like oh it would be nice to have that and then you get it and you're like, oh, you know what? I mean, like literally you just say, oh, it doesn't like, you know, nobody throws you a parade, you know, it doesn't magically fix your relationship with your parents or your self-esteem. You just feel the same and then almost like a little bit disappointed that you don't
don't feel the way you thought you would feel when you got this thing. It feels very abstract. And I think I think it's part of it too is just the nature of the medium that we're end. So I've always kind of thought of it like, you know, if you're a musician and you hit it big you've got like a sold-out Arena to go to you know, you've got ten thousand screaming fans who were singing the song with you know, like they're right in front of you. You can see see them. You can hear them, you know, if you're if you're
An actor who hits it big in movies or television like suddenly you start getting stopped on the street every single day. You have people screaming and asking for autographs. Well, you're an author that hits it big. It's just like your name on a new in a newspaper and right and nothing happens, like nothing changes eventually a big check shows up, which is really nice. But like other than that, it's you kind of just keep going about your daily life.
So it's a very it's a very strange just a strange experience overall. And you know, I'm super grateful for it and super proud of it. But it's I'm kind of like you were one of my big conclusions. You know, I had this I would say I just came out of like a I mean, my books are still selling very well, but I you know 2017 through 2019 was pretty insane for me and coming out of that wave.
Of my conclusions is oh that's kind of overrated. You know, like when I look at like the next ten years of my career. I think that kind of conventional critical success or about hitting bestseller lists and stuff like that. Like that's actually come down a notch on my value hierarchy or my prioritization list. And and so what goes what goes higher like for me?
It's been this realization that I actually don't like putting out books and I actually don't like them selling like I mean, I like selling them. Well, I like them selling well, but like the recognition the validation actually isn't what I what makes me feel happy. What makes me feel happy is making the books. And so that's you know, that was actually an important realization for me because one of the things I've been told by editors agents Etc is like hey
If you put out less books, your books would sell more copies and they'd have more room to like do what they do and it's like okay that that advice makes a lot of sense. But if if because of the experiences I've had what I figured out is actually just like the process of making books. Why would I trade the thing I like doing to be more successful at the thing that I've actually found isn't that important to me?
Yeah, and it's I I've always thought that I think I've told you that at some point. It's like man, like let people miss you, you know, it's like there's a Ryan holiday book coming out like every six months like let him miss you for a while, but I totally get it makes sense to me was going back to work on the next book helpful at all. And as far as like because obviously you weren't dealing with disappointment because there's the opposite of disappointment but was was
And I know you you had a different book that sort of kicked your ass for a little bit. And now that's like a that's an that's an audiobook. Right? Yeah, but but was getting you're going back into the grind of it was that helpful as far as like restoring your sanity or at least preventing you from losing your sanity in the the Elation of all that success.
it was so the second book which is everything is fucked book about hope I mean it was
it was very helpful. And it was also incredibly painful for different reasons than the first one, you know subtle art. I was very naive. It was my first book with a big publisher. It was there weren't really any expectations. It was mainly just a bunch of ideas. I had been kind of cultivating on my website over the past few years that I was really passionate about and excited about you know, my my aspiration was like, oh I hope I hit a bestseller list one day, you know, like it kind of didn't go further.
The problem with the second book is is everybody came into it with you know now the bar is in the stratosphere and you know everybody like it's it's the bare minimum now is like debuted in at number one. Like if you don't debuted at number 1 like it's bit. The book is like going to be seen as a failure by Publishers and it pays off more everyone kind of a thing. Yeah and
And I still hadn't really totally I mean looking back I wasn't aware of this at the time but looking back I still hadn't like emotionally processed the success, you know, it's what am what am I big discoveries from that experience? Was that a very sudden burst of success or good things in your life can actually be just as disorienting and and mess you up emotionally as like a burst of negative.
Of like pain or loss or whatever, you know, and because it just it completely takes your normal everyday life and like flips it upside down. So even though it's a great thing that's happening to you. You're like, oh shit, like all this stuff that I thought was true or necessary. My life is like no longer true or necessary like what so anyway in
so I mean even basic stuff it affects relationships.
It's you know friends most I would say 90% of friends and family responded very positively but some people get super weird about it. Some people are jealous. Some people get insecure. They start kind of projecting things onto use like thinking, you know, it's like that old friend that like you used to be able like T's and mess around with like now suddenly you tease a mess around with them. They're like, they're not laughing like they see it in a different way. The money is I mean, although
it's it's great. Like I would never complain about getting a bunch of money, but it it messes with you and and it it calls into questions a lot of priorities. I think when you're financially limited, it's very easy to know what to give a fuck about. You know, it's very easy to get to know what your priorities are suddenly when you're you just like millions of dollars or dumped on you. It's kind of like, you know, it's the guardrails are
Off like if you if you want to go make a bunch of really stupid decisions. Nobody's going to stop you. Like there's nothing there to stop you anymore. I'm gonna get re or you know, just you can do whatever you want Ali totally. Yeah. I mean you could just blow it on, you know, take a six-month vacation and go blow all your money and Monte Carlo or you know, whatever right and and again, you know, the money thing enters into professional relationships and friendships and family, and so it was just
A very weird and disorienting time and and it kind of it took me I'd say it took me a good year or a year and a half to kind of like just mentally and emotionally catch up to that and like get feel like I was standing on Solid Ground again. Like I knew what I was doing. And in the meantime, you know, it's everybody around me is like pushing me super hard to get a to get another book out, you know, because obviously it's when subtle art is number one everywhere.
A follow-up is going to do two amazing. It's gonna make a shitload of money for everybody. So everybody is like pushing me super hard to get this next book out. So there was a lot of and I didn't really know how to deal. You know, I'm I I started blogging in 2008. I've never had a job. I've never had a boss and suddenly I'm like, I've got all these contracts. I've got like meetings with CEOs of publishing companies and and they're like
Telling me I have to do XY and z and a certain amount of time or else my contract is going to be void and all this stuff and I'm just I'm kind of freaking out. I don't know what to do about it. So in that sense, the second book was far more painful and difficult than anything else. I I've done on the other hand. I think what I kind of figured out as I was writing it is
Look like nothing I do.
It's like I always come back in like you and I are both metal fan. So I always come back to like the music analog, you know, it's like when when a when a when a band has a huge album, it's kind of a no-win situation because if they put out an album, that sounds exactly like their Hit album their last hit album, then people are gonna be like, oh they're just mail it in there like cashing the checks like they're not, you know, it's they're not coming up with anything new.
But if they try to do something completely different than everybody gets bad because they're not playing the same old stuff and so it in a weird way having such a huge hit like that. You're kind of no matter what you do next. You're going to disappoint people and at some point I just about that. Yeah. It's so exactly it's some point. I just had to accept that and as soon as I accepted that and realize like, all right, dude, just write the book you want to write. That was very therapeutic for
Me.
Hey, it's Ryan. Got a quick message from one of our sponsors and then we'll get right back to the show. Stay tuned.
Hey everyone. Thanks for listening for the last several years. I've been traveling giving talks all over the country about the ideas of my books about the ideas I research and so this quarantine has been strange for me because suddenly I'm not traveling now. I am doing so many of the interviews and calls and stuff that I'm doing over zoom. And so I was just thinking the other day I needed something to wear for these things because on a normal day. I'm just wearing a t-shirt. So I've Loved Mac weldon's
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I remember seeing you. I don't remember when it was in that window. But yeah you see
You seem to almost sort of catatonic like you were just exhausted and it wasn't from like work. It was exhausted from the sort of the just the the cognitive load of it all and I do remember it was is actually helpful to me because like we go back to this point about comparing herself. You often think you want what someone else has but we kind of don't do ourselves favors it actually looking at that thing and there's there's a great quote about how
how like the mediocre person convinces themselves that that the that the spectacular person is unhappy or that the powerful person is unhappy but you know, you kind of always think you want the next rung, but you don't actually know what it's like and it may well be that the wrong that you're on or the you know that there's a there's a sweet spot that you want to get at and I always think it's interesting like everybody in politics wants to be president when being president might be the
Worst job in actually the best job is this job, you know, like there's a we don't do a good job figuring out exactly actually what we want and looking you just look at the picture the president four years ago when they get elected and then four years later and you're like, oh hey, maybe actually this thing has some costs as well as benefits. Yeah, and I also think we tend to be very
short-sighted, you know, it's we're very focused on kind of like the social markers of success or achievement today without thinking very hard of like what they're going to look like 10 20 years from now, you know one thing I did kind of during that period that was very relieving to me was I would go back to stories or examples of you know, there's just so many examples of authors throughout history who
Nobody knew who they were when they were published. You know, Nathaniel Hawthorne said nobody bought Scarlet Letter and and you know, there's a bunch of other famous books that like, they didn't become popular until like the person have been dead for a hundred years and then there's tons of other examples of people who were books that were massive when they came out and you know within 10 years they're out of print and so I kind of relieve myself of realizing that it's like over the long run, you know 30 years.
Now
50 years from now like a hundred years from now, we I actually don't know what success looks like, you know for 2017 and 2018, you know if that's the window. Okay. Yeah, I nailed it. Like I was I was pretty close to the top of the mountain there. But like when I stand back and look at my entire career my entire life say, you know, this this entire Century, I have no idea what's going to happen and so it like accepting that uncertainty.
And that kind of like vast relativity of what success is was very calming for me. It helped me just let go is if it's a very stoic exercise. I mean that's my favorite part of meditations or Marcus is like it's like who's ever heard of Vespasian and that's like three Emperors before him, you know, and he's like he's thinking about he's like who remembers all these names and places and I think I think what he's doing there is not saying oh this is meaningless, I think.
Trying to check himself against the fact that everywhere. He goes people are telling him. He's amazing and he's having those same meetings and dealing with those same crowds that you're talking about. You know what I mean? Like, it's precisely when you're on the way up that you wanted remind yourself like this is not real and this this evens out over time and you got to chill out or or you're going to spin off the planet.
Yeah, for sure last sort of question for you because I think you and I are you and I are pretty aligned politically sort of center. Right? I want to say libertarian, but just sort of like historically aware of what things mean. I don't think we're going to the world sort of rose-colored glasses. We don't need to talk about specific politicians, but I'd be curious like one of the things I've struggled with. I would say the last six months more than anything, you know.
Have this kind of idea of who you're writing for who the audience is or who's on the other side of this thing? You're putting all this work into and then it feels like since the pandemic and then definitely since the protests about police brutality that them that the mask has slipped a little bit that you've seen like the people have revealed themselves a little bit like we posted this video on Daily Stone today about Justice which is like not an argument whether that's a course to a virtue. I mean, it's one of the four
or and like the comments were horrendous, you know, like just like it's not like I disagree about X Y or Z. But like like are you experiencing that with your audience where it's not just like hey, we have a political disagreement but there seems to be a percentage of people who are almost reveling in awfulness as like a deliberate sort of like political social identity. It's like worse than nihilism because nilus just doesn't care. These people are like like
But it's not just like hey police brutality is a complicated issue. It's like no. No, I'm going to find a way to like make this person who was the victim of a horrible senseless death into into like the somehow Twisted that they deserve it. For example, do you get what I'm saying? Like, how are you reacting with that as a Creator without I mean
It helps the laughs. I mean, I'm just sitting here listening to you. I mean it's easy for me to laugh at I mean, I I get my own share of stuff like that, but it's easy for me to laugh at yours because I'm just sitting here thinking like what is like Seneca a lip tard now like because the yeah, right. It's it's like everything has been politicized the point that we're like polling philosophers out of like 2,000 years ago. I'd be like, well, you know, it's it's just it's silly. I will say that I mean this so
First of all as you and I both know, you know, we're prominent on that. We put our work on the internet. We're very prominent on the internet part of the job description is that you just hear from awful people rotted an auto weekly daily weekly basis. That's just par for the course. I definitely noticed since the beginning of the pandemic actually. It's interesting. I'd say the first two to three weeks people were actually much more understanding. I think it was because it was such a new thing and everybody was so afraid.
And people were I actually noticed people were very grateful and gracious to each other for a short period of time and I was briefly hopeful but I'd say maybe three weeks into the pan to make it just took a hard turn and I've noticed that the angry hyperbolic trollee comments and emails have been significantly higher than usual and I've noticed it.
It seems to be irrespective of what I post about or write about. I wrote my newsletter last week was a newsletter about a concept in Psychology called post-traumatic growth, and it's
The commutes away. Yeah, it's it will and it's a hugely important topic, you know, everybody's heard of PTSD but people don't realize that you know, people people who go through traumatic experiences less less than 30% of them develop PTSD symptoms. Whereas over 70% end up six months later say that they actually benefited from their traumatic experience. So they experience some some degree of what's considered post-traumatic growth. And so I wrote an email about that and man I got and and
Everything I'm like linking to all of the research papers all the citations like it's all there in the email and man. I just I got screamed at by like two dozen people, you know, people emailing me saying like I was molested as a kid and don't tell me this was a good thing that happened. I'm like Jesus Christ man like this is this is not what I this is not even close to what I was saying, but okay, so I the conclusion I've come to is I think
People are just very on wit's end this year. I mean 2020 has been rough for everybody. Whether it's the pandemic the protest the the pilot the political situation in the u.s. I mean, it's like no matter where you are in the world or what you're doing. Like it's it's it's a rough year emotionally. And so I've just taken that as you know people tend to when they're when they're afraid when they're angry when they're uncertain they lash out.
Emotionally and and I've just kind of accepted that one of those laughs, you know, some people are just choosing the lash out at me for whatever reason like I happen to be the thing that triggers them that day. And so I seen it that way makes it easier for me. I don't know if that's accurate or not. But at least it helps me see it as like these are not necessarily like
horrible people with Horrible character, you know, they're just, you know, maybe they lost their job and the you know and things like that the mayor of their city is a moron and do make making a bunch of stupid decisions this year and they're just so fed up with everything that they get online and post horrible things. You know, like we don't know now, that's a really good way to think about it. The other thing I've taken about it I've taken from it. I wonder what you
It's
like it's a really good reminder of why you can't write for the audience and you have to write for yourself because you know, it just it was like both sort of depressing and then also freeing. It's like I've been like so stressing about every word everything that I've ever done, you know, assuming that the audience is way way up here and then you realize like, oh there's a significant percentage of the people who apparently can't even read because they I didn't say
say whatever it is that they're up. Like I said the opposite of what they're upset about and they're still upset about it. And so why why have I been killing myself over, you know sweating these granular details that like clearly nobody is noticing but me so it's kind of like in that sense. It's been freeing but it's also I think I think it it is it is a little depressing to just see people I don't know you're right. It's not their character but people are revealing that there is a
Sniffs and a harshness and a and the cruelty not far beneath the surface and and they're not not afraid to reveal it. Yeah, and it's you know, I I take the I've a very pessimistic hobbesian view of human nature, which is that we all have that base and cruel part of our nature and that were never very far from it. And you know, I think one of the unfortunate things of the
The internet is that it removes the a lot of the social constraints for people lashing out like that, you know, the anonymity of the internet makes it much removes the consequences of being a total asshole sometimes and then the other thing I try to remember too is that you know you and I is because I get the same thing. I like it's really hilarious actually like there's some weeks that I go into my inbox and I will get they'll be one email from somebody on the left.
Accusing me of being like a fascist Pig and all this stuff and then like three emails later. There's there's an email from somebody on the right accusing me of being like a communist and you know, this is it that I'm going to be sending people to the ghoul axis and I'm like, where's this coming from? I didn't even write anything political like count is ours is happening, you know, and I think one thing that I've had to get used to in this the 2020s definitely
really making me get used to it is that people just project ideas on the public figures, you know, it's a simple word like justice that it's been like the context that the word justice has been used in so much in the past two months has come from black lives matter and a segment of black lives matter is has very radical leftist views. And so people just make that Association it they get worked up emotionally and they don't actually think through it they're just like
Rah, rah, rah, blah blah blah Justice blah blah blah blah blah, you're you know, you're ruining society and and it's and they fire off the email because it's there's nothing there's no reprieve there's no negative repercussion from it. So now and so so so as not to close on the most depressing note, I think I think one of the things that I'm trying to practice and I'll give you the last word it marks really says this idea goes you don't have to have an opinion about this and that's something I've been trying to practice.
This is like I don't have to respond. I didn't even have to register whether this makes me angry or sad or whatever. I can just see it and I think this is what meditation is about you see it and then you just let it go right on by. Yeah, there's a you know, it's
In Buddhism, there's there's a huge focus on kind of the liberation of not knowing things and I think our default state is that we are terrified do not know things because it means we don't have control but through the practice of meditation and some some of the Buddhist philosophy. It's I definitely subscribe this idea that there is there's a freedom in not knowing things and I think it's harder than ever probably too.
Think that you not you don't know something today because there's just were just flooded with information today and people and generally the the information that gets shared the most is the information that is spoke that is spoken or written with the most confidence and generally the people who speak or write with the most confidence or the people who don't know a damn thing at all. So it's a tough time I think and I definitely agree that we all need to practice stepping back.
And just accept that we have no idea what's happening. We don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. Like we really don't know. It's
we have no idea now. I think that's the perfect place because Mark you're the best. Thank you so much. Thanks man. It was fun. If you're liking this podcast. We would love for you to subscribe. Please leave us a review on iTunes or any of your favorite podcast listening apps. It really helps and tell a friend.
