Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness podcast. Now, imagine you're in your 20s. A lot of you are actually in your twenties and someone comes up to you and says look with your current job, right? You don't have to be making millions of dollars. A year just an average middle-class.
Job, you could retire at age 30, if you really wanted to, of course, you'd probably say. Well, that's crazy talk. Of course, you can't. That's not how it works. You have to work 30, 40 years to save enough, so you can stop working or the way you shortcut that is you start a business and sell it for millions of dollars or a rich Uncle dies. You win the lottery. We're not counting on that. So I'm going to put my 30, 40 hours, 30, 40 years in my guest today.
Has done it. He actually retired at age 30 working as a software engineer and he wasn't making millions of dollars a year and the way he did it was just through extreme frugality. His name is Pete. He runs a Blog called Mister Money Mustache. And a lot of you guys follow him and Pete promotes what he calls financial badassery. And his big argument is that Americans waste a lot of money on stuff that we really don't need luck.
These that make us comfortable and if we can get rid of a lot of these luxuries or cut back on them, we can actually save a lot of money. And so what he says is like, look you just live the strenuous life, do things that are hard and you'll actually save yourself some money. Some money that will give you Financial Freedom, a lot sooner than you think. I think it's really fascinating his approach. So, today on the podcast, Mister Money Mustache and I discuss Financial badassery in the mindset shift that needs to take place.
Ace in order for you to be able to retire early. If you wanted to, we're also going to talk about what do you do when you retire early at age, 30 or 35? What do you do with your time? And then finally we discuss some brass tacks, things you can do right now to start saving more money to allow you to have some more financial Independence. Really great show think you're like it. So without further Ado, Pete Mister Money, Mustache Pete. Mister Money, Mustache. Welcome to the
show. Thanks a lot. Miss McKay. I'm excited to be here.
The Art of Manliness for the first
time. So I think you're the, you actually my first moustached guest I've ever had on The Art of Manliness
podcast, well, only in my publicity materials because actually in real life, I don't always have a mustache, including right now, it's too much maintenance. So, in that extends, I'm kind of failing in the manliness contest, but it'll grow back this winter and then then I'll be real again and you'll be real again.
Yeah. Alright, so he have a Blog called Mister Money Mustache. I know a lot of our listeners probably have
Readers of it, but the story behind it, is you retired at age 30. So, how did this happen? How did you retire at age, 30 and you did this with, you're married, you have a kid? We did you win the lottery. Did you have a dead Rich? Uncle happened? What
happened? Yeah, it's all the old-fashioned. I did everything the old-fashioned way. So first of all, I should clear it up. I'm 40 now. So this is about 10 years ago that my wife and I retired. And the reason we did that is in order to start a family. We always figured. We are such Workaholics back in our 20s that
We want to be free from that in order to concentrate on kids when they came along. So that that got us motivated to save through our 20s. And we just worked as normal like Tech workers. I was, we're base basically both software engineers. And so no magic, not really stock options or any kind of stuff like that. It was just, we lived sort of like, a normal lifestyle, but we learned a little bit more than normal, which is not necessary for early retirement. But the real key is just not spending everything you earn. We spent we lived.
A little under half of what we took home and invested the rest and just paid off the house. But normal index funds, nothing flashy. I did like a rental house or two at times and when we were done when we had enough savings and we're going to get to that later in the interview. We it was enough to just live off the dividends and capital gains and Rental income from the houses. And then that was enough to cover our living expenses which are pretty low and we've been doing it ever since. And only after we realized that very few people did this,
I feel it was necessary to start a blog to explain. Like, you know, this weirdo. Did this weird thing that's actually pretty easy to
do. Okay. So yes, it was just aggressive. Saving living frugally will get talked about some of the Brass Tack things, you do. Before we do that. Let's talk about the underlying philosophy because I feel like it's not so much tactical things that are hard to do. It's the mindset. That's the biggest change to do what you did. So what's the underlying philosophy behind the Mister Money? Mustache way of finances.
Oh, yeah, it's a good question because I didn't even realize I had an underlying philosophy as a kid and as a 20 year old, but then I realized it's I think of everything is kind of like a game. So some people think you win the game if you get the most luxuries and spend as much as your paycheck, as you can without getting in trouble, whereas, I always thought I won the game for keeping as much money as possible and accomplishing the most stuff myself, you know, like, for example, I always thought, oh, I'm 20 miles from work right now. I wonder if I could bike there.
I wonder if I can make the bike trip in the winter, or I wonder if there's a way I can get the groceries without resorting to a car. So, it just a little challenges and doing stuff. Pushing your own boundaries and doing things that are harder. If you combine that with thinking about what makes you more money and what saves you more money, and that also applies to working harder and trying to kick ass a little bit more in your job. It's just kind of automatically. First of all, it makes you happier because accomplishing and learning is much stronger source of happiness than any kind of like big.
Green TV or like nicer, pair of golf shoes and stuff is going to provide you. So you're happier. But at the same time, you're earning more money and you're spending less money. So it's kind of like these three three spokes of a philosophy, which I later rebranded and I call it bad a city which is like the desire to be a bit more of a badass in your life. Tends to make you a lot more wealthy than you'd otherwise be too
interesting. But how do you do this when you're surrounded by messaging to do the complete opposite, right? It's not just the media, right? Where a
Tai Chi. But your friends, your family, they might not do it overtly but suddenly they're like, you know, what are you doing? Yeah, you should be living this sort of Lifestyle buying stuff. It send your by your kids. Nice things. Go on that vacation. That's really expensive. I mean, how do you make this mindset shift? When you're being bombarded with messages? That says don't do that.
Yeah. I really like that question because because you're kind of speaking of a u.s. Perspective and most of your listeners and readers and mind to are in this country.
And it's important to realize that we are actually batshit crazy in this country. And a lot of other countries don't have the same consumption disease that we have. So you can get a long way just by doing the opposite of what everybody else does. Because we're all, we're all doing it wrong. Everybody is out of shape, you know, like a lot of health problems self-inflicted and stuff because we're indulging in like, you know, our momentary desires instead of thinking in like a multi-decade plan of like, how can I make my life the best? How can I do the most difficult thing?
So if you get negative feedback from society, that means you're doing a good thing. And of course, I'm saying that with a little bit of a joke be in mind because you know, really it's not negative feedback. It's just slightly questioning. Like for example, you know, people in my town, my friends know that I finished working, I have lots of savings but I still ride around on old bike and they see me carrying like, a bike trailer full of groceries home from the store. Instead of having like my servant drive drive it in the limo and deliver it in.
My meals and stuff. They know that I just like doing stuff the hard way because that's a more satisfying life. So you really I think it's in your mind that people are criticizing you. If you confidently like set out to do a new more badass lifestyle really you end up getting more respect instead of less. If people see that you're serious about it and you're pretty confident in your own internal values. And then the second part of that is just just tune out of TV and advertising like, you know, TV is designed for nothing.
But to make you want more stuff like a shiny or bigger pickup truck and stuff, and I've never really been into that. So, you know, I just got offered a TV about 1999 and haven't turned back. I'll still watch like, great movies and stuff. But just there's just no need to absorb advertising of any sort. You can just just wipe out your life. Now that the world is more modern and you get to choose the information that's pumped into your head. Yeah. So between those two things, you know, people should try and come back to me if they have any problems you have. Those are working.
Oh,
yeah, this is great and you hit on this idea of not being a consumer but these Williams we've written about this on the side before anthropological studies about masculinity cross. Cultures. One thing that at the Polish isn't found is that to be a man what separates men from boys and primitive tribes as well as larger industrial cultures like us is that whether you're a producer or a consumer?
Yeah. That's awesome. That's a great way to make the distinction. I think I get a lot of joy out of
I
think
stuff like I'm currently living in a house that I built for myself for my family, from almost from scratch. It was a 1950s, kind of dumped when we moved in, and then I tore, like, the whole roof off and producing this house. And I've built other houses in the past and producing writing and producing stuff through my jobs in the past was always where all the joy came from. And I find like when I occasionally indulgent consumption, it doesn't really give me as much thrill as I thought, you know, like sometimes one time I went to a
sort in Cancun and everybody's just bringing me stuff and all the buffets are ready for you. And all there is to do is just take, take consume sit down and there was like, well, what can I do here like is then do these guys working on the hotel need any help? Like I was looking around for something to keep me occupied for the week. I was there because there's no production to be done. And I think that's a great way to shift. The balance of your wealth is to suddenly think about producing and consumption is kind of like a necessary thing, but you
To minimize that because it gives you more resources to produce, which is where all the fun really is
that. Yeah, and what I love about your philosophy, it it's unamerican, but it's very American the same time because what you're advocating is basically what our founding fathers, advocated, our great-great-grandparents like yourself save as much as you can produce, don't consume, but I guess there was a shift I get in the after the world second world war, where consumption became a way of
life for Americans, right? And there's still a lot of production going on in the background.
I think that's a bit of a people are trying to fool us, you know, like spend then support the economy like that. That's not really what's going on the part. The reason the country is strong is because of all the great stuff that we produce and consumption doesn't even have to be quite as much of a part of that. Like first of all, you can export your stuff if you make the best cars like the Tesla Model S ship it over to Germany and they're buying them instead of BMW is lying. Then you're winning that part of the economic game. And the other thing is if you produce stuff that delivers long-term dividends like for example,
Build up a big, awesome, solar power factor, or whatever that delivers energy for like the next Century. That's a kind of production that is like a long-term benefit to society. Instead of just building a bunch of pickup trucks wearing them out. Burying them in the ground, build another bunch of them like so there's different kinds of production and consumption that have different long-term effects on a country's wealth. So I like to move towards the stuff that actually creates lasting strength and Lasting
wealth. All right, Mister Money Mustache is playing the long game. Yeah. Awesome.
All right. So you Advocate or talk about financial Independence and there's lots of books have talked about that your money or your life is one that I read and had a big influence on me. But how do you define Financial Independence? How do you know when you are financially independent?
I want is a pretty easy answer. I think it's just never having to work for money again, which doesn't mean that you don't have to work. You don't feel like working. Like I enjoy working every day, but money is no longer a factor like, you know, this guy's
Pay me more, even though I don't like working for him, you no longer make that choice. You never no longer sell out your, your core values. And I even call this, I actually change the word in my blog to being calling it retirement. Some people say Financial Independence, but I really like the word retirement because it's just sort of has a more of a final say. And I'm trying to redefine retirement kind and say, well, guess what? Everybody should keep doing the work that they care about. You should quit your job if you don't like it, but you can call yourself.
Retired. As soon as you're financially independent and it's just like a celebration, you know, celebration word just my own personal preference.
Awesome. So you Advocate some serious, serious savings rate, 50% to 75% of your income. And I know for some people a lot of people who are listeners, like that just like, no way you can't do that. So, how do you do that on a tactical brass tacks level? How do you save squirrel away 75% of your take-home pay?
Yeah. Well, that's a key thing is, first of all.
Think about take-home pay. Because when you first say like 50 percent of your income, people will say, wait a minute, almost 50% goes to taxes like or whatever. You got to understand, you're talking about your post-tax, take-home pay, and then you should be able to work on saving a portion of that. And so, the first thing is to say, so Wipe Out the Prejudice or you say that's not possible because it is, you can live on 10% of your take-home pay. If you really got bad ass about it, you know people do this, people live on four thousand dollars a year in the u.s.
So and it's a matter of being smart and how far you're willing to go on it. Now. I never had to go anywhere close to that far like my family lives on like we've always lived on it around 25,000 of spending just because that's as much as we can manage to spend without feeling like we run out of stuff to buy. As for the brass tacks question though. You just got to think about the main places to optimize. The biggest one in America is cars. A lot of people spend about five hundred percent.
What they need to on driving around and not really ending up anywhere different at the end of the day. So tricks for that include, like prioritizing living close to what you do, live close to work, switch jobs, which houses if you have to don't drive a big automatic transmission SUV, you know, get yourself like a nice used Honda and make it last for 15 years, and then there's food cooking your own food, not going out for dinner as much, but still keeping it social by hosting dinners.
And having friends that do the same thing. So people end up having more fun at lower cost and then there's just the general leakage. Like a lot of people walk around like picking up objects all day from stores or shopping malls. And if you just kind of cut that out reform your days, so that shopping isn't really big part of it. A lot of people end up dropping a thousand dollars a month from their, from their spending, just right there.
Yeah, so thinking of the big three is what gets you to the 50% or even 75% savings rate, whether
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totally like, how many people have?
Cable TV $100 a month or more. That's an expense. You can just wipe out today just be like, hello. I don't need cable TV anymore and I was like, twelve hundred dollars a year compounds into like 15,000 per decade. By the time you invest that money in conservatively and that's just by erasing something, or you don't need any way because you know, you should be out there producing instead of consuming other people's like reality TV shows and stuff. If you like watching sports go out and play sports to say it. It's a harsh.
Shhhh, harsh thing to say on aren't on the Art of Manliness podcast. There's a lot of a lot of better stuff to do with your time than watching
TV. And then how do you do this with kids? I'm sure some people are listening. They're like, okay. Well, yeah, that's easy. If you're single right? I can live a Spartan life at how do you do that? When you're married and you have kids? Well,
kids are. I always wondered that too until I had my own kid and it turns out they're not as expensive as people say. It's kind of up to you how much kids cost. So obviously like there's certain amount of Health Care cost with a kid.
That are somewhat unavoidable and there's food, they do eat. But other than that, it's pretty pretty flexible. It depends. How much stuff you buy your kid and how much time you spend with them. Like, for example, if your home with your kids, like we were, then that saved a lot on daycare which often cost over $1,000 a month, there's activities. So, I kind of encouraged my son to do whatever he wants, because we can afford it. But just because he has access to his parents so much. He's less intellect the travel Sports.
Steams and stuff and more into doing things in the neighborhood. It's a little bit more of like a previous generation. The where thing way things run in my town where the kids run around in a pack free and they played in the creek and play sports in the park behind my house and stuff like that. So it's amazing. How cheap kids are I think my son we've kind of added it up just very casually and it's it's average to under $300 a month since he was born. And some people spend 10 times that amount on
Basis, so it's just, I wouldn't encourage you to cheap out, you know, like deny your kids of stuff in order to save money. But if you just think of it in a different way, the expenses tend to melt away.
Yeah, the kids aren't that expensive? Like my son like are my son's clothes. He's for we've always bought clothes from friends who had kids and they grew out of them and it was like nice stuff who's like stuff from The Gap by like we got it for like way
cheap. Your friends are usually thankful if they can unload their kids stuff, too.
To you. So yeah, that's a really good point. I didn't even think of clothes because they've generally until he was a certain age. They kind of just flowed in from other people. And similarly, we passed his smaller clothes on to other people. Yeah. Now that he's nine like he's big enough and growing a little more slowly that he truly destroys each item of clothing before it leaves the house. So there's no more hand-me-downs and stuff, but that's you know, clothes are just amazingly cheap these days. So as long as you're not in in a fashion competition, you're not going to spend more than like a
Dollars or two hundred dollars a year on kids stuff. Yeah.
So are there any things you're doing like the have proactive conversation about money with your, your
son? Yeah. I like that question because I'm kind of hope he ends up with the same luck that I have with the, with not being really overly material desire burdened. So first of all, there's living, by example, which seems to work. He sees what his parents do with money, and he sees how we're not really into buying flashy stuff. We just have
An old Toyota for our car and whereas other friends of his where, the parents still do have to work, might have like, multiple BMWs or big SUVs, but there's other stuff not having TV. I think really helps him because he's not, he's not barraged with a lot of kid advertising all day. We don't take them around to shopping malls because I just pick up the Necessities just through Amazon and everything gets delivered to the house. So there's not a lot of retail therapy and the final part that's been kind of cool. Is that he gets his own money now.
If he wants something like a toy or a video game, he has to fund that out of his own account and we keep his money in a spreadsheet that I called, just the bank of dad. So anytime he gets some money like earns it or gets it from a birthday present or whatever my grandparent. He puts it into the bank of dad. I give them 10% interest which you know kind of updates automatically every month and he can see his balance. You can check it from his little computer. So now he has an incentive to leave the money invested, which is just how it should be for an adult is like, well I could burn.
Dollars, but then suddenly I'm making five dollars or less per year on interest. So he has seized a balance, he still buy stuff. He's generous with his little buddies, but he's not going to blow it all on just nothing because he likes the idea of the passive income. And that's a real thing. Adults should be trading off to like if I'm going to if I want to Fork over a hundred thousand dollars for a Tesla Model S. I have to realize that hundred is no longer going to be working for me for the rest of my life. It's going to be sitting in the driveway depreciating and that's one of the
This things that keeps my spending in check is just realizing, I'd like to keep the nest egg in there working. So the kids can actually get that concept. Pretty early to
awesome Bulls besides saving spending less than you. Earn. What else do you do? Or what else? Do you Advocate that people do to supplement their income? They can support a family wall. Not working for
money. Right? Well, that's a, that's a nice shortcut because first of all, it is possible to just save so much that you never have to earn another Cent.
But most people don't do it that way, especially if you're you're fairly early in the financial Independence and you quit your main job. A lot of people will keep a side job. So for me, I really like doing carpentry or just like Pro, casual pro-level, carpentry around the neighborhood for people. So, even over these last ten years. I've still done different sizes of jobs. Just kind of like when my sign is taken a nap or when he's in school just go over and do some work for people that I like spending time with.
And so it's a little bit of extra money. My wife is experimented with stuff as well after she quit working in software. She got a real estate license, which is a fun thing for a lot of people to experiment with. She did some house selling and now she has an Etsy shop, that you were, she's making like, kind of neat handcrafted, bracelet, and necklace, kind of stuff. And her Etsy Shop is taking off quite a bit. So people never lose their desire to produce after you quit the job, so you're probably going to make money.
Any even after you retire but that just to expand your question a little bit. I also think, if you kind of get focused about this and you get excited about Challenge and hardship and you know, the focus mind you can often earn a lot more than you think and your regular career as well. So I was always trying to think of my job as the number one priority while I had it as a software guy. And I think that helped me earn more than I, otherwise would, which allowed my career to be a bit shorter. So I think people should while
Still employed. You should really pour it on and like switch jobs as needed or switch roles. And and a lot of people can make a lot more money than they currently
do. Awesome. So here's a question. I know it's probably not gonna have a specific answer. But roughly. How much does someone need to save in order to retire early? Is there like a rough percentage of your income that you get and what is you should
be shooting for? Right? That's a pretty easy question actually. And because the financial companies, you know, like Fidelity or whatever, they often confuse you by talking about
How much of your income you need? And that's totally wrong. What you need to do is figure out how much you're spending and then you need 25 to 30 times that amount invested and that will generate passive cash flow that you can live off more or less for the rest of your life. So that's just a really good rule of thumb. So if you spend ten thousand dollars a year just because it's a round number, you'd need 250 thousand dollars of Investments to reliably deliver you that money forever. And then this is where the rubber meets the road because a lot of people
Higher income people will build up a lifestyle for themselves that costs $100,000 a year, Well, turns out to fund that you need between two point five and three million dollars invested to keep that kind of cash, fire hose going and which is pretty hard to save up that much money unless you're a really high high earner. So I optimize on both sides, trying to earn more trying to design an efficient lifestyle, which is why I always use this $25,000 figure 25k. If you have
Your house paid off which is how I do things is more than enough to fund like a family of three or four in most us areas. So so in that case you need about six hundred thousand dollars plus pay off your house. Six seven hundred thousand dollars is enough to retire on plus the value of your house. So you could think of it as about 1 million dollars sounds like a scary number if you're a beginner at saving but once you get into these 50% savings rates, the numbers really start to crank up unexpectedly and suddenly you're
And six figure changes instead of three figure changes in your wealth each
year. So, is this money that's not in there in there in index funds, but they're not in a retirement account. You're
right. Well, I would encourage you put as much as you can into the retirement account because you can read about the details later, but there's ways to get that out earlier, or you could spend your post tax money first, and then gradually work into your retirement. Money was your older, or you might end up earning more money as a carpenter or whatever after you retire. Anyway, so you don't worry about those details.
Details other than put it in there and yeah index funds as the easiest way and it's a safe way if you're at all interested in skilled and rental house management or, you know, income properties, you can get a higher rate from that, then you can from, from Stock, Investing in general, but it's not an easy to do, have to know a little bit. You have to be somewhat motivated to learn and understand why it doesn't work in San Francisco. Very well. And then why it does work in Oklahoma pretty well because of the price to rent ratio is
More favorable in in some different areas of the
country. Yeah, and yeah, the whole paying off the house thing that there's like, two sides of that debate. Some people say you shouldn't. Some people say you should pay it off early. Why? It's like I've heard the Army. You shouldn't pay it off early because there's tax benefits up, but I've never understood that argument. Yeah. Because you're basically paying the bank money so you can save a little bit on
taxes, right? It's true. It's kind of a win-win question. You can't really go wrong. As long as your other alternative isn't buying a boat with that money. If you pay off your
If you're getting a 4% return or whatever, your mortgage rate is and a compromise to make the to make kind of the best of both sides of the coin, might be to leave your house unpaid off while you're working. So max out the index funds while you're working and your income is high, especially if you have an expensive house because you're going to be up in the above the standard deduction. So you'll actually be really benefiting from the mortgage right off. And then, once you quit, your income will be a lot lower because you're just living off in.
Vestments instead of your massive, you know, doctor or lawyer salary or whatever, and then you can transfer some money to pay off your house and that really lowers your monthly expenses, a lot, your lower, your cash flow requirements, which just makes people relaxed and it's a fairly good investment. It's a four percent guaranteed fixed kind of yield which you can't really get anywhere else right now and it protects you from fluctuations in the stock market because you'll always have that zero dollar monthly mortgage bill just
Paying property taxes and that's it.
Yeah, so, what's the one thing that someone who's listening to podcast right now? What can they start doing today? The start on the road to financial
Independence? Well, you could start learning about other people who've done it as one thing to do, or you can just start taking action. Like, make sure you have a good working bike and start replacing car trips for the bike. I like that of the psychological bridge to better money management because it's a challenge, saves you money.
But it's also getting you change. It's getting you more physically fit and it's changing your mindset. So that suddenly you are active instead of passive and you're figuring out how you're solving problems in the world instead of just relaxing and pressing the gas pedal. So I like to use the bike as both like the figurative and the literal model for the first step to a financially prosperous life because it's kind of the perfect example of the stuff you have to do if you really want to get ahead of
everybody. Awesome. So do hard things like find something.
I didn't do it. Yeah, and if you I would say the bike is a perfect, you know, that can be the hard thing, unless you've got something else in mind.
Awesome will be working people, learn more about
your work. There's only one place, just my blog, Mister Money Mustache.com, and it's showed up on a lot of other stuff like newspapers, and podcast and stuff recently. So you can poke through those in my media section 2. If you want more of these big picture interviews, but really, if you want to just crank through some of the early articles and then see, if they
You take a liking to them, and if you do, then there's there's a never-ending chain because I've been writing this thing for four years. So there's a lot there to have fun with.
All right. Well Pete, Mister Money Mustache. Thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure
likewise. Thanks so
much.
I guess it was Pete. He's the owner of the blog, Mister Money Mustache, and you can find out more about his work and some more advice on Personal Finance by it badassery at Mister Money Mustache.com. Well that wraps up another edition of The Art of Manliness podcast for more manly tips and advice. Make sure to check out The Art of Manliness website at Art of Manliness.com. And if you enjoy the show and you get something out of it, I'd really appreciate it. If you would give us a review on iTunes or Stitcher or whatever it is, you use a listen to podcast that will help us get some feedback and how we can improve the show as well.
Is get the word out about the podcast for more people. The more, the merrier, really appreciate it. Until next time. This is Brett McKay telling you to stay manly, you stay manly to stay manly, do stay, man.
