Coming up on the Jordan Harbinger show. You have to think pessimistically the reason things worked is because further Upstream I and Dave were worried about whether it was going to work or not. And we corrected it or we made it good. There was a sketch we did and I was like, we don't have an ending and he was getting mad at me. I'm like, dude, you can get mad at me. All you want we don't have an ending then we figured it out, you know as much as I was a pain in his ass, I was correct.
Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger on the Jordan Harbinger show. We decode the stories secrets and skills of the world's sharpest minds and Most Fascinating People and turn their wisdom into practical advice that you can use to impact your own life. And those around you our mission is to help you become a better informed more critical thinker so you can get a much deeper understanding of how the world works and make sense of what's really happening even inside your own brain. If you're new to the show, we've got episodes with spies and CEOs athletes and authors.
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Free over at Jordan Harbinger.com course, most of the guests are hearing on the show. They subscribe to the course and the newsletter. Come join us. You'll be in smart company. Where you belong today. We're talking with comedian Neal Brennan. He's a comedy writer and co-creator of the Chappelle show. We're going in on the comedy writing process and how it mirrors real life. Also some tips on getting Happy from a guy who's tried everything and why achievement can't be a substitute for happiness now enjoy this episode with Neal Brennan.
My friend recommended three mics on Netflix music if you heard of this Neal Brennan guy, of course, I don't know anybody's names that I did not familiar with and so I turn it on and I'm like, all right. And the first thing I see is you're holding these note cards. Yeah on the mic this motherfucker. Yeah that my first thought was what the hell you've got to have this memorized already. Like what's the problem? So what was that all about it? Why did I do notes? But yeah because if I didn't do notes on that Mike, it would have been different enough from the other Mike. Oh, I see so it has to be like, I just needed to differentiate it like a different energy type.
Gotcha. Okay cool. Because I felt like where is this like weird crutch coming from it's like when yeah, someone gives a keynote but they have their notes on their phone. You're like, what are you doing? I've seen you do this a hundred. Yeah, and most comedy really is the same a lot. I mean the deliveries were pretty similar except for the person's personality is different like you got your Gabriel Iglesias or whatever type guys but this is a lot different the three mics format is different. He'd tell us a little bit about like what that is. It's basically so there's three mics on stage like spaced-out equidistant from each.
Each other so I just alternate Mike's basically three times once for one liners, one of the I just do like three or four one-liners one is for stand up like conventional stand up and then One mic is for emotional stories. And then I just kind of go I do 10 minutes to stand up for 12 minutes stand up than I do Amon stories and I do two minutes of one-liners and I did and then I just repeat why the break-in format from just like, all right. I have funny stuff. I'm going to go up and deliver it. There's so many.
Ours now. There's yemeni stand-up hours. Like it's really really difficult to stand out and if people do stand out usually stand out because they have their own TV show or they did a roasted they did something that was like sort of got them a lot of attention than people guy you just stand up and watch it. So I knew I didn't have a TV show and there was stuff. I wanted to talk about that. I knew people found interesting and I want to talk about on stage and I always had that idea so I figured it out. How do you know someone's going to find that stuff or how do you even
Sighs someone's going to find that stuff interesting because I've talked about on podcasts and everyone says that's really all that's the good stuff. Yeah. Well not like that's not the good stuff comedians of sort of led the movement of being revealing off stage. So to speak on podcast mostly and I would watch my friends like do stuff and if they ever got upset or choked up, I was always like that's so much more interesting to me than just another person doing stand-up giving like a glib well-thought-out recital of their material.
Today rehearse. Yeah, or tell you it's their looks and up is the best like it's better than a movie to me. It's better than TV show. It's the best but there's times where it's like, hey, I don't want to watch it for an hour sort of OneNote be great standards rare. So I just wanted to do a different thing. Yeah, Dan done. I when I saw it, I thought like why do people will recommend this one liners with the no cards like who is this guy? And then I was like, I don't care what TV show he wrote that I liked before like, this is a mega sense. What did this guy contribute away the one-liners took?
40 seconds and the all this yeah 42nd you had this deep of a spin-out, you know, I love this guy. I watched it like three times. And yeah, I probably did because when somebody recommend something like um, I guess sit down watch this for an hour. And you know, I thought your stick maybe was I'm gonna pretend I'm really puts you in front of the mic and I don't have good delivery or something and I was like, oh actually czardas funny and then you went into some deeper stuff and I thought okay. Oh that part wasn't supposed to be totally funny. I see what you're doing here. I didn't read the premise of three mics. But yeah.
State I just turned on I just thought I already did that for the same reason. Somebody calls it fluffy, right? Whatever. There's going to be a three mics joke at the end. Yeah, exactly. So you're talking about growing up in Philadelphia Irish Catholic as as my friend. Kayla bacon says your family was a little dysfunctional so dysfunctional that produced to stand-up comics, but I'll just run and that's that is that's really saying something highly unusual situation. Yeah, were you funny when you were younger? Like when you're a kid? I was always pretty fine. I was like, you know cute I was the youngest so it was like
I was sort of precocious and I was funny. Yeah, was there a time when you realize like I can do this standing thing this funny thing like I got this I should do this. There was no like moment per se my brother was comedian when I was in high school. I was like, okay like so I knew I got to spend time when I was in high school with like David tell Andrea romano and guys like that. So that were friends with my brother. They was before they were famous, but I knew like I got seen doosan a better grade. I got to hang at a comedy club. So I just sort of wanted to do it.
And then I was funny around my friends. Did you ever think like I'm funnier than my brother. I should probably get into this. No, I don't know truly will not play that game. I know that there's just many people saying to him you're funny the Neil so it's like yeah, I'm just not even it's always a matter of taste. Yeah. It doesn't do any good nothing there. I'm not trying to bait you and no no, this is your brother either. I just figured like some Comics they go. Well, you know, I saw other people doing it and I just thought that timing thing like I can do that. I can mimic that or I get to see a reaction among
my friends are among strangers, which is more important obviously than your friends. So he got you a job working the door at a club and was it Boston or twice? It was in New York, but was called the Boston Comedy Club. Okay, that's a little confused here because they want to make sure no one went so I was going to NYU for film school and working the door at the comedy club. And then eventually I was like, I like the comedy club more than I like film school. I'm more nocturnal. I figured like let me just work there and did and it was you know, like I said tell Romano Jon Stewart.
Chappelle, these were like Kindred Spirits way more than film students. Actually. How did you start and keep those relationships? I mean you see the guys there all the time but there's a lot of people that work in comedy clubs that don't throw jokes at the comics that don't try to create relationships that don't end up being or staying friends with these guys. Oh, yeah. I that's a good question. I certainly was like I felt an affinity for them. I would strike up conversations with him. I would he just said I would pitch them jokes. I didn't pitch a ton of people jokes, but J more like
Like we were roommates. He did a Joe. Come on as Chappelle did a joke. I was useful in a way like to them me & Chapelle were like same age like we got along really well, so I didn't necessarily see it as networking per se I guess it was networking but I didn't think of it that way sure I think most people who are good at networking relationship development. Don't think of it as a network game because the people that think of it as networking ards too obvious. They're like, hey buddy. Hey, can I give you a card?
Yeah, like now I mean, I know we need to financial man. Yeah, I have people often saying like hey, I'm a amateur comedian. Can I send you a link for my sin sent me a link. Can you watch my five minutes? And I was like no, thank you. People see me or somebody doing better than them in Showbiz are doing well as an opportunity and it's like once you feel like an opportunity you're going to shut off. That's an interesting point that I hadn't really thought of people send me their stuff all the time. Like hey, can you read my book?
And one no and to even if I did I don't know what useful input I gotta have because I do my thing totally different than you should do yours. Yeah, or even like listen to an episode of my podcast is only half an hour long or even if it's only like 10 minutes long. Yeah. My feedback would be like, yeah talk closer to the mic or I don't know if you're good. It'll get to me if you're good at something. Somebody will tell me like did you see this thing or whatever like you don't wanna jump the gun people send me skirts, whatever I have.
That are written by professionals that they want me to do that. I don't read write that I just don't have time or interest. So if someone says I'm an amateur read this it's like dude, this is your one opportunity. You want to waste it on this like you share that you're not going to get any better because guess what if I don't like this, I'm not reading anything else you ever send me for your entire life rest of your life until you die. No, but you know what? I mean like, yeah, I do know you need to be smart about people that make online videos.
It's like hey, you don't have to put them all on you to make five of them. Show me your friends and the best one put on YouTube. Oh good point where everyone's like I go to my page and do is like dude if I watch one and it stinks I'm not going to keep watch over. Yeah, I'm saying that as like a guy that people want see is an opportunity, but that's also the audience's take like you were mad at the one-liners. There's three one-liners. I wasn't even mad. I just thought if the remote were closer, I would be like, I'm gonna lower the volume but not tuna actually if my
Hadn't recommended it. I probably would never have turned it on. I didn't know who you were. And so I do watch some comedy that the watch it live. I don't care about Netflix unless it's like I'll go and look at Roy wood jr. Because he's a friend of mine. I'm like, oh you got new things. Yeah, I support you and I'll watch it and even if it's not funny, I'll probably still tell you I wash it and I really enjoyed it which it was funny. Yeah, Gabriel My Buddy goes look it's really funny in their stuff in there that you'll like and I was like, I assume he's not talking about the first three lines of your thing of your special so I gave it more of a chance, but I
About my show in the same way my shows obviously not that funny and totally different I put stuff in there and if I record something and it just doesn't go that well I go I can't put that in my feed and my tip for new podcasters is if you don't think damn that was good. Don't put it in your feed because even if you're on episode four hundred, there's people who are going to go. I'll just check out that show you recommended there get that's the first encounter that they have with you and they're like that. Jordan guy just tried to be funny for 40 minutes. What a dipshit. I can't believe people like this. Who is this person?
And you see that in your iTunes reviews, you'll put up something in your not that proud of it and like a week later. It's like this show sucks. Why is everyone recommending it you're like, yeah episode I did with that one guy didn't yeah, and it's not worth it. That's not worth doing that to people that you think might become connections later. Even if you're not even thinking about that at the time it might do well to realize that in business or in any craft that you do you're always communicating your always creating a relationship or your warning people not to do that. There's also the thing that people don't realize is like there's nothing in it.
For me meaning helping you. I always tell people like I didn't move to LA to do yours. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. I think about that like I moved out here to do my shit. I didn't move out here to like and then hopefully somebody will just call me and I moved out here because I have my own goals and my own like ideas that I want to get done. Most people will help you if they think if it's mutual if there's a mutual benefit to it that worked out for me is like Jay took a joke for
No book I pitched a joke today. So then when these guys started getting TV opportunities they were like well who can help me who writes things that I like? Yeah. Yeah. I've made a lot of money off of helping people for no reason other than the Love of the Game, like other than like Midas Dave had an idea and I was like, hey do this and then and then that snowballs into have bait snowballs in the Chappelle show some walls and everything I've ever done like Shimmer Shimmer before Shimmer had a show she was doing the rose.
Ghosts, and she asked we were friends he was like, can you help me with the roast thing? I don't even think I she used anything I pitched and then she gets a show. She asked me to direct it. Then she does a Bud Light campaign with Seth Rogen and I don't even like those below but whatever so and so but it's on the Super Bowl. It's big spectacular thing. So it's like and I got work with Seth and Evan. I like this guy No One's Gonna help you in a way. That's not beneficial in some way.
We call it not keeping score and we call it giving generously for the obvious reason that you're giving generously in you're also not expecting anything necessarily in return you're giving generously like look I got this thing that maybe you can use your not thinking like if he uses that I am in money, right you're thinking like if uses at that school, and then eventually you're not thinking like I gave Jay a joke. So where's my comeback? This was like in the 90s, so I knew that Larry David had sort of, New Jersey.
Seinfeld from comedy clubs and then Jerry Seinfeld was like Hey, I'm got the sitcom you I'll work on it with me. So I knew that that was a thing that happened and I wanted to work with Dave. I always felt like we could do good stuff together, but Dave Chappelle. Yeah, okay, but there was a not even altruism members just like if I think of a joke, I can't not tell someone if I think of a tag for someone to act like I haven't done it this week, but there's very few weeks ago by that. I don't text someone like hey when you say that maybe try saying this like you
I did with Chris Rock, I do it with everybody. Does anybody ever get annoyed? Like thanks for your suggestion guy who works at the door, but I got I got my oh, yeah, there was none of that. Like Chappelle didn't like it the first time pitch them but the joke that I think that I pitched him work so he did try it like hey, why not? Uh, yeah try like he knew when I pitched it would work maybe but he's annoyed that you thought it was I'm not saying like look, there's going to be resistance. Like there's plenty of people who don't who I'll pitch a joke and then they won't use it and I'm like an idiot.
Like dude, I'm telling you that'll work. But people again people didn't move out here to do my yeah, which I get so I don't like begrudge them. I just stopped pitching you're cut off no more jokes for you. I just go like okay, they're never going to take my stuff. So yeah. Why why waste your time? Yeah. Yeah and the brain power. So are you thinking of jokes for a specific people in their actor you like I have this generally good thing no know if I have a generally good thing I'll do it myself. But if I'm watching someone's act there's a like a hole or they say something and they could say more
I will likes text them like hey, you might want to say this. That's a unique skill set. I don't know how many people do that for other people or are even able to do it for other people if you seen that a lot is that kind of what being a comedy writer is just writing stuff for other people all the time. Well, no not unsolicited. But when you write on a TV show The your job is the more cusine and then you everybody punches it up sure. I can see that it feels like if I'm working on your show with you and Dave Chappelle. I'm
I'm studying all your stuff in your voice and I'm watching it over and over and you're kind of doing that but it's automatically happening in your head. I don't try to like immerse myself. It's like I you know, I can write for Chris Rock because I'm a fan of his right so I know his subjects. I know what he likes to talk about. I know how he likes to talk about it. So it's not like think like Chris what would cry it's just it is automatic. So it would be theoretically really hard for you if you're like, hey, look we're hiring Neal Brennan to right?
For you Jordan, you're like this guy. I don't know this guy. I don't know what he does. I want to get out of here ASAP. I don't want to I don't know how to write for this guy and it's like you're getting a million dollars a week and you're like, oh God, it's going to be a lot harder, right if the person doesn't have a voice it's hard. But if the person doesn't have like a clear comedy voice then it's harder but it's not impossible. It's not as easy to it doesn't flow. Yeah. It's like it doesn't suggest it's like when you know, somebody host SNL who's like an actress or something. They're all like all the writers like
Jesus Christ like what like yeah, you know, it's easy when it's Melissa McCarthy or Larry David are people that have a clear comedy voice. But if it's like some chick who just did an action movie and is hot. It's like she's asked Christ. So then you're just yeah, I'm making you're just doing jokes because they're hot but it's not because they have a clear comedic Force you grew up. You had kind of a rough childhood and your dad was a little bit hard on you from the sound of it are a lot hard on you from the sound of it. How does
That kind of thing alter the way that you develop emotionally and I don't mean like from a therapist perspective here, but in terms of expression of feelings and stuff like that, which you kind of have to do a lot of in comedy, maybe how does it alter that? How does it get in there and mix up? I mean, I don't know any too many communities that are like the extremely happy as people. Yeah. I kind of noticed that as I know. I don't know why that is because part of it is like comedy requires brutal Clarity and you are not especially
Happy you see the world in an unsentimental way and you can see things clearly and then you'd say you take like a brutal honest truth. And then you basically spiff it up and put a tuxedo on a funny hat on it and you've got comedy if to begin with you start from something like brutal and then you sort of charm it up. You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guests Neal Brennan. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Mercury. Everybody's got a lot of
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IPhone or whatever using the play this in the like the jokes make up for the sadness and it's like that's kind of the easy obvious. There's more to it than that like like you just mentioned you have that brutal sense of clarity and they even say they being like Scientific American mind for example, like depressed people have a more accurate Outlook of reality. Yeah, and then it's good to have depressed people in a work group. I've actually said that at times I've gone like hey, can we look at this pessimistically? Really? Yeah, because I think you're more prone to me.
Make mistakes if you assume things are going to go. Well, it's like Jerry Seinfeld said about stand-up bad audiences make you edit and good audiences make you expand. So it's like let's assume this isn't going to work why what are the potential pitfalls for whatever this ideas? And then can we mediate that before we even start like when I'm writing comedy I can't assume like they're going to be on board for this then I'm gonna say that like I have to assume that the audience is going to drive a hard bargain.
Right, you have to assume that they're like me and they're looking at those no cards in there. Like like what the fuck? Yeah exactly. So would try only do a few one-liners up front. But I know like a friend of mine did a special and he put a great joke and I said is that you're closer and he's like no I put it third and I was like, yeah and he's like because people will turn it off and I think that's a good way to look at things because I've actually imparted that wisdom to other people and they go no, they won't turn me off really so yeah heard the exception to human nature. I think there's
Something to pessimism it can your life up but I think it's a decent thing to be mindful of if we're trying to apply this at home for example outside of Comedy writing. How does that exercise if you will work is it just like let's assume that the first thing we do just bombs and the second thing we do also doesn't work. Is that kind of yeah, I do that in everything because I direct stuff sometimes like I said like a dork commercials and I direct TV shows and stuff and directing is all about having an offensive plan and a defensive plan like
so I'll have a shot that I want like and then it'll be while Warner and we'll just it'll be no edits and did it down like well, but also I need to get shots in case that doesn't work. I need to get like sort of static defensive coverage in case this big Ideas is work and with stand-up comedy writing or whatever. It's just looking at things critically and like what if it doesn't work you need to have a back-up plan whenever people are like I had there.
No plan B. I'm like, oh, you're an idiot. Yeah, yours was has to wear. Okay. Well, then you're kicking yourself. You have to have a defensive plan. It's like instead of people always said like it was fun to watch Johnny Carson bomb Johnny Carson the old host the Tonight sure like when he bombed it was as funny as when he killed because his bomb he would like fidget and look off to the side and it was funny to watch. So Dave Chappelle has said like you can tell how funny someone is by how they bump so it's
Like do you choke or do you realize like well, this isn't going well and then you're funny and you're honest and your backup plan is your sort of saver. That's a really good point. I hadn't thought about that before once I was at the Laugh Factory at The Comedy Store. I can't remember I was with my parents sitting at a table. They were seated kind of away from me. Yeah, because they wanted to see and not craned their necks and the guy who is that one of those Open Mic kind of short set deals. Yeah first guy doing crowd work. The whole audience was like, oh why you said with these two old people other my
Then he kind of played with us for a little bit. The next guy comes up and does this like really raunchy masturbation joke and he points at me and he's like this guy and he just goes to Town the whole audience is kind of quiet. Yeah, because they know I'm with my parents and he goes what the hell happened here that usually just crushes it and he goes wait. Are those your parents? Oh my God. I'm so sorry and he made a big deal out of that. It was in everybody the tension it built up. So I at that point that the
Whole room just exploded and laughter and I thought he could have blown that really easily by being like Oh and then just moved on to the next thing when I pitch movies or pitch TV shows whatever and it's not going. Well, I will literally say that like, well this isn't going good. And I think you say it in a confident way. It makes even though you're still gonna bomb your bombing less. Yeah, if you just say like oh this isn't going well if you don't uh, sweaty way if you do it anyway, it can backfire.
But there have been times where I've been pitching movies and I've said to the person that I was pitching to that we were bombing with I was like, all right. Well, we're going to come back in a year and pitched another one. I think if you're pitching or meeting people or whatever or trying to sell yourself in some way I think if you say like look I can see you don't like it. I understand all the time back. Like if you're instead of just this sweaty thing of like not acknowledging what's happening. I think that can make it way worse. It's like a bad Shark Tank.
Watch that show where they're just getting killed and you're like you just you suck to your teeth because you like this guy the person he's like, all right. This isn't working. I'm rescinding my offer or artists. Like I'm just going to show you the product because I'm blowing it. Like right now, I'm not even gonna show you the product. This is going so badly walk back out there love that if someone on Shark Tank was like, you know what you guys this is over. I don't know if that would make air but it would be an awesome episode of shark be hilarious. You wrote half-baked that movie speaking of pitching move.
I don't remember why that movie didn't do well because when I watched it open against Titanic Goldman, I and Good Will Hunting that'll do that'll do it. But I watched that movie. I don't know 50 times and I haven't watched the other ones 50 times combined because I don't know I wasn't like a pot smoker or anything like that when I was in high school or college or whatever that came out. It just turned into this weird is cult classic the right term like it was this underground College like probably did a million times better.
On DVD than it did in theaters almost to the number a million times better when you're doing Chappelle's Show. Did you decide look I want to be performing instead of only writing. I mean how to track Never that's the thing. Like I was never watching Dave be like I should be Rick James. He's an amazing performers. I was never jealous or envious of deep attention. I got like I was happy with the amount of attention. I was getting like when the show ended it was like, oh, well, I'm at the whims of somebody else here. Yeah. I need to be more self determining and do something.
And I've been doing stand-up a bit. So I was like, let me focus more on that when you're writing a show like that that's doing so frickin. Well, you mentioned while we got to look at things pessimistically and figure out if they'd maybe aren't gonna work. Is there ever a moment when you're writing something like that and you go it's definitely going to work. This is Chappelle's Show. We're killing it or did you always kind of go? Well, you know, yeah, there was never I mean I was thinking pessimist you have to think pessimistically the reason things worked is because further Upstream I
And Dave were worried about whether it was going to work or not. And we corrected it or we made it good because we needed a joke. Like we would go we need a joker. We can't move on until we have Joe Curt like Civello citizen Al couple months ago, and I worked on a with him and it was like there is a sketch. We did know was a we don't have an ending and he was getting mad at me. I'm like, dude, you can get mad at me. All you want we don't have an ending then we figured it out, but it came from me saying we don't have an ending and him going. I think we do and we going now.
I don't think we do, you know as much as I was a pain in his ass, I was correct and that happened and there were plenty of times where he is vice versa like why he'd say, I don't think we have a joke here. I don't think have an ending and I'd be like if someone criticizes something even if you don't agree with him, I think it's worth maybe coming up with a solution. That's a really good point and I hadn't thought of that. Yeah because even if they're wrong worst cases you worked out this non-existent problem. It's like when people like
I like the show gets like okay, I don't take 42. How long did it take you to think the joke a split second take another two minutes and try to beat it. It becomes as ego thing and becomes his defensiveness thing like will know that works and did it on. I like it. I'm Peggy do like it you thought of it. I bet you like it me and a buddy of mine used to be the head writer silent live would say that people go like we like have been easily. Oh, I know you do the audience didn't like it and we work for the audience.
You need to come up with a better joke here or whatever. So like you said if you try to come with a solution and you can't then you've done your due diligence and you can sell do whatever you're doing with a clear head. But the good news is you may think of a way better joke. Yeah, it's was way better anything like a lot of what experiences in my case. It's comedy like it's like seeing patterns and remembering like oh this reminds me of that and that didn't
Go well, so, how can I work against that that's what wisdom is that's what experiences it's like we may be making that mistake. How do we avoid making that mistake how clear is that image of like the pattern in your head? For example, are you just going I feel like this doesn't work or you like know last time we tried this and this and this and that followed this pattern and it didn't work. You know how crystals and pretty it's very clear my oh that's what experiences like working on tight live a bit this year the hung out with Lorne Michaels a bunch and he's been a common
Her for like 50 years and wrote for shows that you never heard of can literally 50 years ago and he'll talk about a sketch and sound like they read 50 sketches a week. He's so okay. So that's 50 sketches a week 25 times a year for 43 years. So he'll talk about sketches and go. Yeah, I've seen that sketch 10 times I've written myself twice and he's not talking about that literal sketch talking about atoms that pattern of
it's that format that formula whatever you want to call it. So a lot of it is just seeing a pattern and going like when we are tired live that week Dave hosted there was a sketch that somebody pitched and it was a funny patch, but I knew where it was headed and I was like I said to Dave I was like that's a good idea but something tells me it's gonna be flat when we read it and sure enough. It was let me read it because I knew what the idea was. How do you test stuff like that? Do you have a focus audience in there? You just like in the back
Your head you're like this is still not funny. Hmm because we rehearsing it sucks. You just can tell by being a comedian and being a funny person. He just like doesn't really it seems like it would be really easy to start writing comedy for comedians instead of writing comedy for an audience of people. It's the same thing. I mean convenience might not laugh but they'll God's good joke, huh? Like that's the thing is you get to the place where you lie, God's good joke, we all recognize like a good joke. We see it. Having said that I have a ton of experience.
sound of boots on the ground and Center I still bomb regularly or do a joke that bombs regularly like I do a new material show usually every Tuesday in Santa Monica and at the Westside comedy theater in La and I do jokes every week that door there are things like I think this might work that's the thing about comedy is this should work but it's a Fickle thing and it's a really subtle and it's the highest level of difficulty and if you can do stand-up or do
You can pretty much do anything. If you look at bike the things that comedians do that by actors can do how many actors do you know that can write their own show because I know 20 comedians that can yeah, you kind of have to yeah their own show not there. I'm not talking about there at no. No. Yeah, like a sitcom how many actors you know that can write their own monologues and then write their own television show to 25 episodes a year for eight years because like I said, I know a lot of communities and movies and then direct movies and then you know, it's like comedian.
You can do a lot of stuff. It's incredible actually and it seems like the kind of thing that you would not get good at for a really long time when you start yeah, it's like incredibly trying there are people that are good immediately. I think Chappelle was good immediately when he was like 14, he started jeez. I've heard Schumer was good immediately. I've heard like they're people that are good immediately. But yeah you it takes a long time to get good at and that's the thing is that there's really no shortcut. You can be good luck in whatever but if you don't have good jokes, ultimately the thing about stand-up is and
General whoever writes the most good jokes is the most successful period a meritocracy complete meritocracy. You know, who's written the most good jokes Dave Chappelle Chris Rock Bill Burr Richard Pryor George Carlin Jerry Seinfeld, like these are not like who wait and was that this is the hauled you get to it's like Whoever has the most home runs is Babe Ruth when you hit 750 home runs, you get to be Babe Ruth and stand up the same way. It's like whoever writes the most good jokes is the winner.
We talked earlier about trying to achieve things or trying to get good at something in order to make yourself feel better because you do struggle with depression for a while. I mean, do you still yeah still do there's a lot of people that they're obviously in the same boat a lot of people write in as well looking to apply what they learn on the show to issues like depression and other types of sadness and things like that. And what advice do you have for people who are thinking holy crap. This is me. I'm trying to achieve stuff or get ahead or do something great in order to overcome the
Should I / achieve in order to make up for something? I'm lacking elsewhere in my life. I mean, that's something you've got what it is. That's what achievement is. I mean, I think like all achievement comes from feeling of deficiency. I think there are some exceptional people who are like I my father and mother told me I was great and it turns out I'm great like yeah, they were rice. Yeah again, there are rare instances, but most of it comes from a feeling of deficiency and this is just happen for me recently where I finally feel like
I've achieved enough to get my life that the voice in my head have lost credibility like the negative voices. It's like you couldn't do without Dave you do did you do know and then I done enough stuff in my life where it's like, okay, I've written for so many TV shows and done it. Well, I've have a stand-up specials that are well received. I've done enough at this point. That's like all right voice in my head. Like you're just wrong you're wrong. Yeah, but it took 25 years and it may go away too. That's the other thing is like this could be a result of
Part of me thinks it's like these things that I finally achieved and finally like three Mike's being really well received and me finally going like hey, give yourself a break kid or it could just be because I started taking Zoloft again five months ago. I don't know that's interesting because it almost to me is an outsider sounds like that's just a voice in your head telling you don't get too comfortable because we might pull the rug out there is that but like it's also all right. There's too much evidence this point there's so much evidence that I'm good at my job. Oh, yeah. No, I'm not arguing against
That I know I'm not gonna yeah. I just meant the voice in your head telling you not to get too cozy because you know, you're worried about that. If you haven't go away found though is that there's no real happiness in it. I read a prince quote recently that I've been telling a lot of people which has somebody was telling them like write more songs right at one here and another hit and Prince look to them and said look, I've been to the Mountaintop. There's nothing there. Like I've achieved a lot of any happiness I have or a good portion of happiness I have is from
Shannon and from my own outlook on what life should be because I've done a bunch of stuff and it's like man, it's pretty cool to like to Netflix special people like and it's pretty cool to do a TV show again. You hear this all the time, which is happiness is a choice and I've become more aware that the last six months and ever in my life. It really is just a matter of like I can look for external validation. But ultimately, it's just got to come down to like do I want to be happy or not? There are things I can do to make myself happy in a way. That's not
Outcome-based there's a term unconditional happiness. I'm not going to be happy if I'm just gonna be happy. You know, that's what I focused more on in the last few months and that's been working out really. Well. Yeah, I'm sure you're listening be like you don't sound happy just because I'm fighting a cold and I don't know how to parse out. What's the approval I've been getting and what's the medication and what's the new outlook but I meditate every day and I do CBT which cognitive behavioral therapy which
Is like a there's a list of 10 negative thoughts tiles, which just Google it. It's really excellent. And I've been more aware of those thinking Styles and trying to play defense against it in myself. Like I said, I have a good resume. It wasn't necessarily making me happy until I realized like this resume. It doesn't make a difference in like I went on vacation with my girlfriend. I'm single now, but we went on vacation and to like Bali and we were doing nothing and she's like you're so happy and I was like, I love
Not doing like this makes me happy and figuring out that like, all right, go to do that do more of nothing. Like I didn't do it yesterday. It was great. I didn't do inject and it was fantastic. I'm lucky in that. I don't have to work all the time. But there's something to like what makes you happy. I like playing video games from that kid play a video game like do the thing that makes you have it. There's such a premium put on achievement. I'm
Saying as someone who's done a lot of this stuff and a successful the next chapter is what makes me truly happy and what kind of Life am I going to lead from the inside out not from the outside?
This is the Jordan Harbinger show with our guests Neal Brennan will be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by grammarly. So here's a tool that I thought I would never use never need never wants. It is a grammar and typing Checker and you know what they say about good grammar. It's the difference between helping her uncle jack off a horse and the other version of that sentence with or without a comma in a different place. But grammarly Jen you even said I'm shocked that you use it so much because even I'm surprised that I
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One and only dr. Drew Pinsky of Loveline Fame always loved that guy stay tuned for that after the close of the show. Thanks for listening and supporting the show, you know, you got to support those advertisers to keep us going to learn more and get links to all the discounts you just heard so you can check out the deals for yourself all in one place. Those are at Jordan Harbinger.com deals. We also have worksheets for today's episode and every episode the link to those is in the show notes at Jordan Harbinger.com now for the conclusion of our episode here with Neal Brennan,
You tried a ton of stuff to yeah bit of the pressure. I mean ketamine and then TMS which is like brain magnetic stimulation. I mean just like stuff that goes beyond the Zoloft or yeah, I try and anything like I've tried everything including achievement like as a which is harder than ketamine. Yeah. I've tried everything and just has to come to a point where you go. Alright, it's not outside of me. It's just not outside of me. It's not about
Like making contacts and following up and sending a team. It's like yeah, that's fine. It's not that meaningful. I can work on silent live or I can work on Chappelle's Show, or I can do it Netflix special if I don't like it if I'm not happy doing it Kitt. What's the point so I can say I did it? I have enough that I can say I did it's such a tempting trap for people though, man. It's not even attempting trap. It's our whole society. It's not even a trap. It's I mean it is a trap, but the whole thing is a
Trip it's all a trap. Yeah, like and I'm not trying to get to like, you know, Matrix e but it is I philosophical. Yeah. It's like it is truly is all a trap. It's like people have ambition and don't even know why they have it. It's like, where is it coming from? What's the point? It's like approval seeking Behavior at that. Yeah, like and it's just a habit. It's a habit. That's like do you like it? Do you really like it? Do you feel fulfilled by it? If you do great chances are you're foolish or it doesn't actually fulfill you.
Yeah, I think a lot of the stuff that we used to do with that. I used to do personally, especially in this business early on was just like it's got to be big we have to have like a good social media following and all this stuff and people have to really understand our mission. And then when I kind of decided that that was less important than just having conversations with people that I found interesting. Yeah the show freaking took off from there. Yeah, it just took off because it was like, what do I actually like? I'd like interesting. That's part of what was good about three mics as I won't who am I actually because
There's a lot of comedians that are on stage and then that's not you. That's not who you are. This was the thing about three mics is like this is who I actually am. I don't have all the Charisma and charm that a lot of my peers have and three mics was in some way explaining why I don't you don't remain in go. Yeah. I do. I have clinical depression and I had a weird childhood. I've been doing all this stuff. Here's my story. There are people now that they know the story will like me forever. It's not because
I walk into a room people want to say yes before they know what the question is. Yeah, and it's not because of that it's because I'm honest and I'm relatable as a result. You kind of nailed the whole concept behind the show, which is like authenticity in the face of just whatever sort of is going on up here. Yeah, because that I feel like and I know is much more interesting and attractive and relatable to other people you can't have friends if they don't know the real. Yeah, it's an inside. Yeah, but a lot of people are afraid to show
oh that because they're busy covering it up with a mask of like look how freaking cool I am an accomplished. I am. Yeah, that's the antithesis of what we're doing here. We're trying to show people that like look all the crap that you think makes you not as palatable as you would like is the stuff that makes you real and therefore is the stuff that you should actually probably certain facts in my case. It was like I took an acting class Pride seven years ago and and I would do scenes in the acting teacher was like you're not being really and I was like, dude, I'm such a sad person.
You don't want to see it and then he was like no you have to do it and I did it and was like, oh and that's was the first time people like dude. You're really good. And I was like, oh, okay. It's like Republicans do it a lot politically where they'll go like, they'll say what's our weakness and I'll make it a strength, right? It's like a job interview my weaknesses. I'm just too detailed oriented. I think it's more like was John Kerry a war hero, or was he a coward? You know what? I mean? Like you think he's so great. It's a
Really the you've got a hundred percent wrong. It's like is Neil too sad. Let me show you like way more of three. Mics is like a stylistic Lee. I do it in an Artful way. I'm not just like mmmm. You know, like I try to I'm okay. No. Yeah, I explain in a way that's like you can understand it and it's helpful to people but I'm not saying like he just got to be honest all the time. I just think that there are things that people keep secret that are unnecessary. I think what I found is everyone's got a thing and whereas I
Went first, and then everyone comes out and like I'm depressed. I have a bad thing with my dad. So everyone's got a thing and it's like when people apologize on dates for the like, I'm sorry, I'm being so serious might I don't this is all I want to talk about. Yeah, I did. Yeah. I don't need to hear about all the great things that are going on your Instagram feed. Yeah. I don't care what mood I don't care that you can quote Anchorman like I don't give a shit, but I think that it is about like what do you actually find enjoyable and then doing that and being yourself unapologetically you said that you did a lot
Out of honest writing when you were in a 12-step program. Can you talk about that a little bit? Is that something we can apply at all? I think it's just that thing. I said about brutal Clarity. It's the depression thing in some ways. The three mics is the M&M thing at the end of a mile which is like I am white I am a bum. What are you gonna say about me? Like literally, what's the meanest thing? You can say about me. I'm a star. Okay. Guess what? I'm doing a monologue about I'm a star fucker. Here's why makes sense now.
Here it doesnÃt like because I have no self-esteem. I was just chasing celebrities around. It's like what's the worst thing people can say about you. The reason I said it in public is the thing that I this is going to sound crazy, but I read it in Mysteries book really it's the thing in Mysteries book. It says if you're going out to pick up girls give your buddy $300 and say give me $100 back every girl I try to talk to right. So this was I would do that with stand up. I would give somebody.
Hundred bucks and say every time I smile for more than five seconds. Give me 80 bucks. Whatever. Give me my money back. First time. I did it. I lost 220 dollars, but this was my way of saying like Okay by calling myself a star for in public makes it way more embarrassing to do it for me. I can't do it anymore. Like I can't in good conscience having call myself this in public. It's like where people will post their exercise results online. It's a bit of that where it's like I'm
Making myself accountable. So if people see me with a famous person they're going to be a little disappointed like modify thought you weren't hiding anymore, you know, and that's what I kind of am doing like that's kind of what I was doing and that's being brutally honest with yourself and figuring out a way to make yourself. Stop doing it. How do you stay motivated to start again? And this might not be the right terminology. So pardon me, but at the quote-unquote bottom, I mean you're doing Open Mic stuff. Hmm. Are you were doing open?
Bike stuff. Yeah, you already sort of touch the brass ring with the Chappelle show ya how do you stay motivated? Because I think a lot of people when they heard I was interviewing her. They're like, oh, yeah, he's bouncing back like that must be tough. And I thought yeah, maybe doesn't look at it like that or maybe does everything you do is starting at the scratch. I mean as a comedy writer writing is so fucking hard that like, it's all starting from scratch. So like from the maker of blank doesn't really get people in the seats. It does a little bit but
Not really like especially now there's so much media saturation. I see it. All is like starting from the bottom. I think when you write a movie or direct a movie it's hard for everyone. It's literally even being movie starts and no one gets everything they want. There's always someone who's better than you for a long time was Will Smith, and then now he's kind of seems to have lost something so they go Kevin Hart will carry. Yeah, Kevin, I'll do it or whatever. There's an even when it was will there was a movies a Denzel Washington would get that he could
Get like there was always somebody in Showbiz. You have to do it everyday it is that how it's like sports like they don't win Braun plays. They don't automatically give them 30 points the he had could point a he has to score every game and its people might play into your defense against him, but mostly it's because he's bigger and faster than them. Yeah, I'd see it is bouncing whatever you want to call it. But because it is spell show people are not predisposed to like something else I do if they don't like it because your friend recommended it you gave me more
Time but like everyone's defensive about everything. You don't really get the benefit of the doubt from us part. So you shouldn't play like you have it the best example, this I can think of is I talked to Eddie Murphy one time about when he wasn't sorry live and I said, did you just feel like you were dominating and like you were just killing and you are the - touching he's like, no man has week-to-week. I just was trying to survive and you think about all the he did but he was like I was trying to get sketches on. Yeah that's life in show biz for sure.
I think the way the world is now I think everything is like so market-based. No one's gonna give you money for nothing bike for the most part other than of course voiceover. Yeah. He'll get us a hat is the easiest money. There's some of that may not do a bunch of that. Uh, yeah, I did a bunch of stuff forward Samsung like two years ago for like a year and a half of the best. I did Grand Theft Auto 4 & 3 would you do bad guys great like like Russians and you know explosion guys, who are
Involved in the character's life, of course a lot of those little side gig guys were it's like a radio DJ. Yeah cornered and then million pedestrians great because they just wanted to knock those get out and you're already in there. Can you do an Indian accent and like not really in the like just try just try one doesn't have to be real. Yeah. So you just do this like really racist India docks and the like nailed it next. Yeah, that is kind of free money. I remember getting like four hundred and $45 for like an hour of work. Yeah. I thought I was going to get like a t-shirt or something.
Yeah, and I was like sign me up for every video game ever and then I sucked it like all of that. You're also not going to get free money for long like noun suck. They wouldn't have gotten again. I did a couple other ones but man doing like aliens and stuff. It's so much harder than people think like you're thinking of an awesome character. They want that but 10% in a different way and you just can't do it. Like I'm not sure an actor. Absolutely. I do it get a great quote where you summarized a little bit of this. He said I never going to be more successful than I've been in the past two years. I have a better chance of being eaten by a shark.
Yeah, I'll never be famous. But I've got financial success people in Show Biz seem to want to work with me and I get to control the stuff. I write Fame gives you noise, which is freaking worthless. I've got a girlfriend I love so I can't use it to get women and it's not like Dave and I got laid because of Chappelle's Show. He was married and I'm pale. Yeah, what do you mean by Fame gives you a lot of noise. I think that's a brilliant observation. What I've found with like the small amount of Fame that I have in the last month or whatever. I've had always had like I always say I'm famous like an NBA referee where people
Boy, do I know you from you can get you late for sure, but I think for the most part it just like if getting recognized is mostly an exercise in calming the person down when someone recognize you they just start acting crazy like dude, I just got to say did I can't believe you're doing and you have to feel like yeah man, it's cool. Yes. I love to take a picture with you. Yeah. Okay great. Here we go. Are we going to take in a picture really nice to meet you? They're having a freak out and you almost have to like give them CPR.
In the middle of the Grove. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you just have to like give them a little massage. Like it's going to be fine. Fame will get you a lot of people acting weird or anything. Yeah, that's most of what it gives you and then you might pick up like a good like voiceover gig you can advertise thinking promote Like Liquor, right? Yeah. Are you get like free Twizzlers at the movie theater because I like not even yeah, I mean love that sometimes. Yeah, sometimes you get free stuff, but mostly it's like it's valuable for men to attract women the release
shallow women that you just or you know, it's he's just makes it easier even if they're not shallow. Yeah. Yeah, I suppose that's true. That would have to have it's just a social value. Yeah your high status. Yeah, but it's also really ephemeral like your high status now, but yeah, like then when you stop being high status people look at you like oh poor thing. Yeah, I could remember when you are fast bam feel bad for you and they kind of arch beer to yeah, like, how you doing? Yeah. I'm fine. Thanks.
You're treating me like somebody died close to me. I've been fine for years. Like I'm good actually people think they act normal around celebrities don't want to accidentally now. It's like being around cops. Yeah, I'm driving the speed limit. Yeah. I'm a normal driver be able to drive man didn't even really generous with your time. I appreciate it. There's a couple questions from listeners of the show that I feel compelled to ask you since you're sitting here. Do you have pre-show rituals? A lot of comics have things they have to do I have none none. No, I usually have to have liked to
Mugs of tea and to be honest if you weren't here I'd and we weren't doing this like in video. I'd have something probably to take a leak in just in case really yeah, are we on video? No, no. Okay. No. No, but you're here. I'm gonna like Po remodel. Yeah funny at that would be a weird thing to do around anyone. But yeah. Yes, thank you. Yeah, you're awesome at Donna. Would you ever work with Dave again? I work with them on silent. Oh you do? Yeah, but like on a project I guess with Jess. Um, I don't think it's even going to be an issue. Yeah not gonna have that ever happened now.
Now if I did I would get the money up front. Yeah. Yeah, make sure it's in the bag. I love the comedy. You're one of my new favorites and I don't say that to everybody that comes in. I know you're probably thinking like yeah, right because a lot of people are not sure. Yeah, I'm a fan. Yeah. No, I understand that. People are now seeing me for the first time some yeah that I dig it like I told you before when we walked in I was at a coffee shop and people are looking at me like I hope that he's wearing headphones. Yeah. Otherwise, we have to call the polizia and I don't normally laugh out loud to Comedy because a lot of us is not that funny.
Even TV appreciate it man. What's next for you man? What's going on? I'm doing a couple pilots and just you know, I'm around and in the credits, it'll be like from the creator of and every one of the I gotta carry we got I don't that means nothing to me. Yeah from Neal Brennan. That sounds familiar. I know that yeah, it'll have Yak the three my sick guy. Alright. Well, thank you.
Thanks Neal for this one has comedy
special on Netflix is called three mics will link to it in the show notes as always links to everything always in the show notes and if you buy a book from anybody you
On the show, please. Do use our website links. It helps support the show helping our sponsors supports the show worksheets for this episode in the show notes transcripts for this episode in the show notes. There's also a video of this interview on our YouTube channel at Jordan Harbinger.com YouTube or they will be soon. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter Instagram. You can hit me on LinkedIn. If you want to chat. I'm teaching you how to connect with great people and manage relationships using systems and tiny habits over at our six minute networking course, which is free over at Jordan.
Herb injure.com course dig that well before you get thirsty everybody most of the guests on the show. They subscribe to the course and the newsletter. Come join us. You'll be in smart company. This shows created an association with podcast one. And of course my amazing team including Jen Harbinger. Jason Anderson, Robert Fogarty Ian Baird Millie Ocampo. Remember we Rise by lifting others the fee for the show is that you share it with friends and he find something useful or interesting if you know somebody who's going through a rough time, if you know somebody who's into comedy share this episode with him. Hopefully you find something.
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As promised here's your interview trailer with dr. Drew Pinsky. It's like
a movie script. This person was saying bunch of crap didn't make any sense. And then you said something along the lines of is there someone else in there I can talk to and then they were like sure. Yeah, I could tell it was a multiple. Yeah, that's pretty easy thing for me to tell you listen with your whole body. How come you don't listen with your ears and that really started happening with dealing with drug addicts on the clinic because they pull you into a Vortex if I hear the sound, you know, the
Cartoon with these gargoyle yoga sure. I know I'm with the drug addicts. Okay, and I hear that you're gonna you're gonna sound in my head. I got somebody's doing drugs. I just know I'm just gonna be sitting here listening to somebody going huh and all of a sudden I go you go to yoga. Oh, okay. I got it. I can't stop listening now and just start asking what they're taking on which there on that kind of stuff. I'm thinking right. Now. This guy that called us someone with to know women always freak out when they find out what I was in jail for it and all satanic goes. Wait a minute find out that you were jail or find out what you were in jail for years.
Is what does jump for we go? Well, what were you in jail for I broke into a mausoleum and I twist it off the head of an old lady and boiled it to a skull because I needed it for my little brother's snakes aquarium. I thought wow understand that might be a little disturbing to me evil. Why? Okay, so he was a psychopath psychopath. Yeah, self-esteem obviously doesn't care if you're successful, right self-esteem is something established I think by each five.
You can enhance it and you can move it a little bit but most of it is to set early and my was bad. Yeah, that's okay. That's right. I did it just did it gives you trouble if it makes you feel bad it gives you symptoms as it pairs. You're functioning. That's therapy time. Okay. Did you ever try therapy for that? 11 years? Oh my God, not for that per se. I was having overwhelming anxiety as my main reason least that's my wife's reason for sending me
for more of dr. Drew including what experiencing imposter syndrome usually reveal.
Feels about you and how we can spot the behaviors of addiction and others as well as in ourselves. Check out episode 72 right here on the Jordan Harbinger show.
