What up team? Welcome to episode 141 of the genius life.
What's new my genius live? Amigos amigos? Welcome to another episode of The Genius life. I'm your host Max Lou Guevara filmmaker health and science journalist, and author of The New York Times best-selling book genius foods, and the genius life. Today's guest is the superhero of sleep. You know, how like Peter Parker is Spider-Man? Well, dr. Michael Bruce is the sleep doctor. Dr. Bruce aka. The sleep doctor is today's guest and is
Wisdom is
something you won't want to sleep on. Dr. Bruce is a clinical psychologist a board-certified sleep specialist and author of three. Best-selling books. Good night. The Sleep doctors four-week program to better sleep in Better Health. The sleep doctor is diet plan lose weight through better sleep and the power of when discover your chronotype and the best time to eat lunch. Ask for a raise have sex write a novel take your meds and more. Dr. Bruce appears regularly on the dr. Oz Show CNN the doctors CBS This Morning and Huffington.
Just live he contributes to the Huffington Post Psychology today and the Doctor Oz blogs imagine that in this episode. Dr. Bruce shares. What a chronotype is and how knowing yours can help you optimize your schedule to get the most out of your day and night we discussed the genetic and evolutionary reasons that different Chrono types exist. And why try as you might you may just not be wired as a morning person. Dr. Bruce details how chemicals like cortisol melatonin and interleukin 6 effector quality and quantity of sleep we chat about what
Know about the stages of sleep and how they benefit us. Lastly. Dr. Bruce really makes this episode of home run by walking us through how he coaches people on achieving their highest quality of sleep in order to perform optimally on Lower quantities of sleep intrigued. So is I this episode is not only loaded with amazing inside but also so many key takeaways about how to maximize your sleep. Hope you guys enjoy let's normalize making sleep a priority. Today's episode of The Genius life is sponsored by our friends over at Ned Ned is a wellness brand rooted in
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To a few questions every day. So share your thoughts feelings concerns questions. Of course, let's connect and with all that let's now move into episode 141 with the superhero sleep. Dr. Michael Bruce aka the sleep doctor. Dr. Michael Bruce. Thank you for being here with me. Thanks for having me dude, of course happy to be here. I love talking about sleep because it's so important. So I had to get a bona fide expert such as yourself on the show to talk about it. And you've also you've also brought to my attention some some some terminology.
That I'm not all that familiar with and so I want to do a deep dive. Sure Chrono types got it. What is a
chronotype? So it's interesting because people actually have not heard the term chronotype before but most people really understand the concept. So if you've ever been called an early bird or a night owl before is that ever
come across your your wavelengths before yeah, I've never been called an early
bird. Okay. So so that now that we have that part clear, right? So here's the thing is those are Chrono types and so when we when you start to look at
Medical literature about when we started to discover these things scientifically it was kind of in the 70s where people started with this idea of a questionnaire for morning this and evening this but to be clear Chrono types have been around since like the dawn of time. So if you think about early early villages will what was going on there. Well, there was a certain group of people that went out and hunted guess what they were the early birds. Wow, you know, and then there's a certain group of people that stayed around the village, you know tended to the village that kind of thing.
They were what we call hummingbirds and then there were people who was security or the centuries. Guess what they were the night owls, right? So this isn't really A New Concept my contribution to the literature is number one. We Now understand that this is genetic. So you you can send me your 23andMe data are your ancestry.com data and I can actually show you on your genome exactly where the polymorphism is that creates this idea of being an early bird or a night owl but what was also interesting was what I added.
Is that there's an insomnia there's a version of insomnia that that seems to fall into this and so I actually added a fourth chronotype to be fair. I didn't like them being named after Birds. I'm a mammal. I'm not a bird and so I was like, all right, let's let's figure out some animals types that we can use now, you'll appreciate this. I'm having recently released a book in the in the marketing of the book, right? We were all sitting around threat to think of well, what are these animals going to be? Right? Well, we discovered very early on. Nobody wants to be a porcupine.
So so we had to choose animals that were people were aspirational animals, but my biggest requirement was that in fact, they had maintained the Circadian cycle that we were talking about. So an early bird so we what we discovered was lions are early birds, right their first kill is Before Dawn. We historically people know that wolves are night creatures, right? They hunt in the late evenings in the night. So lion for the early bird wolf for the night owl became pretty obvious and then in the middle, we're Bears right made sense.
Right, there's kind of rise with the sun go to sleep, you know as the moon comes out, but then it was what do we do with these problem children write these insomnia kind of creatures and so I chose dolphins. And so I've the reason I chose Dolphins was because dolphins sleep uni hemispherical e so half of their brain is asleep while the other half is awakened looking for Predators, right? Because you know, they're swimming in the water at the same time. And I thought that was kind of a unique representation of people who are never quite asleep, right? And so what's really been
fascinating is it's not just that these genetic traits make you wake up earlier or fall asleep earlier or later or as the case may be but it's a it's a roadmap for your entire hormonal set, right? So that's where it gets kind of bizarre. So with somebody who's an earlier person what I call a lion there melatonin basically turns off at like 5 a.m. Right but for somebody who's a wolf a night owl like me. My melatonin doesn't want to turn off generally until like eight. Wow. So all this
Sudden, somebody asking a night person to wake up at six becomes a really difficult thing to do. Right? And so all then you start to say well what other hormones follow this circadian rhythmicity all of them do so, it's all very predictable but it's going to be forwards or backwards depending upon this one area of early bird night owl in the middle or Insomniac so all of a sudden the literature started to come together really quickly. And so we said, all right. Well, we've kind of figured out that when to go to bed.
When to wake up thing, what else what else could we figure out because people are always asking me like, is there a perfect time of day to do certain things because you get figured out sleep what else could there be and so I'm like well if we looked at hormones and we said what hormones do you need for certain activities if we know naturally when they're going to be at those those times because we know they're chronotype then that would be the best time of day for them to do these activities dude. The the science was ridiculous. We have over 220 studies in the book. I can tell you the best time of day to have sex eat a cheeseburger.
Ask your boss for a raise like it's unbelievable. So because what we did was I have a bunt, you know a bunch of my buddies. So I called them all up and I'm like you guys aren't gonna believe this what our tell me every activity that you do during the day. So I had them all, you know, writing down every activity for like two weeks and we have this combination that almost a hundred activities we chose 50 that we thought most people would be interested in that's what's in the book. So the book is you can take the quiz and take it online. It's Chrono quiz.com and you get your chronotype and then from there you can start to learn.
Learn a whole host of different activities when to drink coffee when to exercise that kind of thing
and it varies from person to
person. Yeah, it does to mazing. Yeah, there's really four big types and one one of the things that we've learned we've had over. Oh like that 1.4 million people now have taken the quiz. So we've had a decent number of folks roll through the metrics of it. And what we've also discovered is there's one chronotype called the bear that's kind of the people in the middle, but we used to call the hummingbirds. They actually bifurcate so there are early bears and their late Bears is what we kind of did.
wow but like it's always interesting to me when you start to think about like self-help and when I'm trying to work on myself I'm trying to set these goals do these certain things in my life if I knew what the perfect time of my 24-hour cycle was to try to accomplish those tasks I would have a leg up on that
yeah
that would be like I'm accelerating that
process yeah so true and so what are the it so you mentioned you talked about melatonin what are some of the other hormones that are
that are differentially modulated by these different chromatin Chrono
types cortisol like the Big E in all anti-inflammatory you know discussions like start interleukin 6 I mean like dude literally every single hormone while his altered in terms of when it is produced based on these chronotype song
about cortisol because a lot of people think about cortisol sort of as being this like blanket and negative hormone because of its association with chronic stress right but core
Not bad, right God no cortisol is awesome. Dude. If we didn't have cortisol, we wouldn't be able to wake up, right? So in order to pull a body and a brain out of a state of unconsciousness, you need to hormones cortisol and adrenaline and they have to pretty pretty much up there in order because remember REM sleep has tendency to occur in the latter part of the night. That's where the bulk of your REM sleep is you have a little bit in each cycle, but the back half is where you get the most of it. That's really arguably one of the deepest stages of sleep in order to pull the brain out of that for, you know, wake up for your day.
When it is the most likely thing stage you're going to be in you need something that's got some giddy up in it and cortisol and adrenaline are those things so cortisol is very helpful. I'm cortisol is also helpful for any time that you need significant movement in a short, you know in a rapid Pace, right? So if you're running or fear all of those things quote trust me if you didn't have cortisol, we'd all be dead.
Yeah, we'd all we'd all be in big trouble. So is this why people with a tent like when people have to you know, attenuate their sleep for whatever reason they wake up to an alarm clock to get to work.
Feel miserable because they've cut off that latter
part of the sleeve. Absolutely because again their cycle is going to be based on their chronotype. And so it just it becomes more and more difficult for people like, you know, you've heard this whole idea of the five am club, right like people like you're going to wake up and you know, Richard Branson gets up at 5:00 a.m. Like that's awesome for him, but I'm here to tell you Genetically speaking not preference just pure genetics here. You're talking maybe.
Be maybe 25 to 30 percent of the population could it could do that successfully literally 70% of people who are trying to do that are not going to be successful because the genetics aren't with them on right like if you're a night owl like me and you try to do that kind of shit. Are you kidding me? Like you're miserable like it affects your whole your whole idea behind self-help right changes. That's not good. We want like my idea is let's have more self help them more self-care. Let's have people really thinking about what
Do hmm. So okay. REM sleep is sort of like the is it is Ram like when you consider that I'd like a deep phase of sleep because it isn't there a significant arousal actually when we're in
rem so so here's what's interesting is there's significant brain activity during REM, but not necessarily arousal. So when we look at the stages of sleep what we're now starting to understand is the stages themselves have very particular functions for us during our waking state. So REM sleep. It appears as though has the
Biggest function is moving information from our short-term memory to our long-term memory. So that electrical process right because it's just data that it's moving right? So data comes in Through Your Eyes Ears Nose, whatever during stage 3 for sleep you filter this is the shit I want to keep this is what I want to get rid of so when the keep stuff and we hit REM sleep it grabs that and it then puts it into store and you know, like into your hard drive, right? So the process of doing that is all electrical or Electro Electro neurochemical and that whole process as that's occurring your brain has to figure out what
It is that mean because there's all this kind of electricity flowed around so it interprets it in kind of a Fantastical way which are your dreams, right? And so there's a tremendous amount of brain activity. But yet when you look at depth of sleep, I would argue that REM is probably one of the deepest stages of sleep but yet arousals not necessarily but activity you bet. Mmm, right whereas stage 3 for sleep. That's all your physical restoration, right? So and that's really front-loaded. So that's actually the beginning of the night which
kind of makes sense from a mother nature standpoint, right? Because if like if you if saber-toothed tiger was coming into your cave where you're sleeping after 3 hours you want your body to have been physically restored enough to get the heck out of there. Right? So I get why that part
seems to be going on probably because it's like a more it's more oriented to survival like, you know, like you got to take care of the body before you take care of the brain. I know what I'm saying. Yeah, super interesting. Yeah.
So it's a we when we lay sleep out and we start to really understand what happens when you don't get certain stages then when you get more of other stages it
It can actually be very
enlightening. Wow, is that in the beginning part of the of the night when you first go to sleep, isn't that when you when you initially when you first get those really important hormonal pulses like testosterone
growth hormone is the biggest and that's what's that's the Hallmark of stage 3 for sleep, right? And so when growth hormone his growth hormone, it's like the Holy Grail of anti-aging. It's like what everybody wants because growth hormone fixes it right? It's true cellular repair occurs during wind growth.
Hormone is humid. And it's only emitted in large boluses during stage 3 for sleep. So here's what's always so fascinating to me is people are always saying, you know, I want to get less sleep. I want to get Leslie. Okay. I'm okay with that. But what you really want is you want to think not in about the quantity of sleep you want to think about Sleep Quality, right? And if you can improve your sleep quality, which I would argue there are definitely ways that you can do that because that's what I do. I'm a high-performance sleep coach, right so I know I no longer treat like apnea and narcolepsy like I take
People who are a you know, High net wealth and celebrity types and they say Michael I want to perform at my highest level and I only want to get six hours of sleep. Like that's what we do.
Jeez six hours. And so what do you say when your clients say something like that?
It's possible
interesting with six hours. Absolutely. Wow, but it does it depend on the person or is that something you can like train your body to
a little bit of both, right? So one of the so here's one of the things that's so fascinating getting back to the book is when I so, let's so let's say You and I
Start working together. The very first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to figure out what your chronotype is. And then I'm going to change your bedtime. I'm going to make it the Chrono typical bedtime. Guess what happens when you do that for 21 days your time starts to shrink because your brain has now recognized. Oh this dumb body of mine is actually doing what I need it to do so it can predict reliably predict when to start melatonin when to turn it off that makes the entire system more efficient as a system becomes more because part of the reason why you have
To sleep is because your circadian rhythm for REM is spread out a little bit further back than your circadian rhythm for deep. So if you can get out some of the middle it couldn't be it makes sense. I'm not suggesting that you eliminated. I'm suggesting that when you sleep during what is your Chrono typical bedtime? Naturally, it just shrinks because that's what it did for me. Wow. I sleep 6 hours and 13 minutes and I'm the freaking sleep doctor, right? You know, how do I do that my consistency in my bedtime?
I go to bed at midnight every single night. I'm a night owl. That's just that's my time. It works perfect for me. I used to sleep until 7:30 every morning without an alarm. I literally wake up at six thirteen every single day.
Wow, that's super
interesting. It just it just creeps back. It just gives me more morning.
Would you say that that going to bed at a consistent time is one of the keys to optimizing Sleep Quality.
It's the anchor. Well, it is the if you want to learn one thing from me, it's wake up time that keeping that consistent will
Actually change just about everything. Mmm the whole the whole system really needs. It needs the solidity of that anchor in order for it to have something to latch onto so then everything else just kind of
knows when to go. Wow. So walk me through the different phases. So we've talked about stage 3 & 4 right but is that slow wave sleep
that it's that's considered slow waiver deep sleep. So the only thing that's left to talk about really it's stage one and stage two and to be fair stage one is a transitional stage and makes up maybe two percent. So it's really not that big of a deal stage two is where we actually can make
Some Headway. So with Stage to what we know is that there is some things that have to do with Memorial function in there. There's some things that have to do with overall levels of energy in there. But to be truthful it can compact upon itself. And so when I work with clients that you tell me I have to get you know, eight and a half nine hours just to feel you know, like I can function once we get them sleeping during their Chrono typical bedtimes that begins to shrink and when we're monitoring their sleep because I monitor their sleep during the whole process what we see what we see happens to be shrinking in stage 2.
wow that's natural like we're not we're not adding anything to make that
happen are there ways for okay so I have a question but before I get to that question I want to know your thoughts and I could share my take on them but what do you feel about sleep tracking devices
so I have one on right now is because that the aura
it is not ordering
nice so here's what I can tell you about sleep tracking devices sleep is a difficult metric right and so steps or easy right my daughter who's 16
Steen can that's a calculus problem right just that your gate the length of your leg your swing and you've figured out how many steps you need to take in a day sleep is very very complicated because if I say to you how did you sleep last night on a scale of one to what is it 10 is it a hundred and who the hell knows and then what do you measure becomes the biggest question how quickly you fell asleep how much deep sleep did you get how much REM sleep how many Awakenings how long were the Awakenings you get the point so unfortunately most of the companies that have developed sleep monitoring systems
Won't sleep companies. They were tracking companies. So there really wasn't a tremendous amount of For Thought put into how do you create or understand this metric from a sleep clinician standpoint? So we're finally starting to see some of that happening full disclosure. I like the or o-ring quite a bit. I use it with my patients for two or three simple reasons one is the form factor. They stick it on they have to they don't think about it. They have to charge it once every three days. It's easy. You know when I was using for example the Apple watch
Ouch, you have to take it off and you have two charts pain in the butt. So like it from a convenient standpoint. I like that collecting data from the finger actually has some significant advantages because you can get temperature. You can also get heart rate variability. And so we all know heart rate variability has turned out to be a really interesting metric for a lot of reasons from overall health standpoint. So you can get sleeping get heart rate variability. There's some good stuff in here, but to be fair it's not a hundred percent accurate. It's not even close right? I mean, I would I mean first of all remember
There's night tonight variability in sleep mean if even if I put you in a sleep lab every single night for 30 days 85% of the time your days would make sense. But fifteen percent of the time your days would be wildly different, you know, and so it's just that's how sleep works is it's not this easy thing to initially necessarily categorize. So I would argue that this is kind of the best of the worst in some cases all of them are reasonable but believe it or not. Now there's this new thing called orthosis Omnia. Hmm, so there are people
People who are getting so tweaked out by their results from these things that they can't
sleep. Wow. It's almost like orthorexia, right but it's like the Sleep anxiety version exactly. Wow, that's super interesting. You know,
people are crazy.
So so also the reason why I asked about that is because a lot of people have asked me just over the years how to boost, you know, they've read on their they've seen on their sleep tracker that you know, they're they're not getting enough REM sleep or they're not getting enough slow-wave sleep. So how much like stock would you put
Into yes, how do you read the the disparate data is the real question here?
Right? Well, how do you read it? And then also is there any new in full way to like to micromanage, you know the amount of time that you spend in rem versus slow
wave if you're Michael Bruce and you know how to do that. Absolutely what to be really super honest with you. That's one of the biggest problems with the tracking industry. Nobody knows what to do with the data. First of all, the accuracy is a problem. And then the secondary function is well, what does it mean?
Right like okay. I get 13 minutes of REM sleep every night. Is that good? Is it bad? Here's what I'm going to tell everybody out there that's tracking anything is don't look at the Absolute Data look at the relative data. So if if there's one night, it says 13 minutes don't go into a panic if it says that 13 minutes every night. Guess what you're fine, right? Because at the end of the day, there's no way you're only getting 13 minutes of sleep, but it's consistently being inaccurate. It's when you have 13 minutes one night and 407.
it's the next and 38 the next that's when you want to kind of start to understand what's going on so I'm always looking at relative data and and you take averages right you never look at just one point of data I know lots of people they look at they wake up in the morning they check their score bad idea okay check your score on Sundays if that's what you if you're really dying to know right trust me you'll be you'll be okay with it the other reason for me that I like the aura ring the third one is we have an open API built in with
my for my patients and so I can actually monitor my people you know from far away if I need to so I can actually give them on the Fly sleep and
sleep data wow you know if they need it that's amazing so then how would you say you know somebody out there is wanting to improve or lengthen the amount of time spent in slow-wave sleep slow wave sleep we know I'm sure you can you can speak to this very well about you know the limit when the glymphatic system
yet pulls all that other crap out of there we want that we're dying for the like the waste management of the
Rain finally comes in and pulls all that crap out, right amazing. Yeah. So so how do we improve that? Right and that whole kind of idea so easiest way to improve slow-wave sleep is exercised the most positive way is daily cardiovascular exercise. So one of the things that's been going on during this whole quarantine insanity is people aren't moving. I had a celebrity the other day there they text and they were like, I've had two hundred steps and it's two o'clock. I'm like, oh my God, you know like you'd be like
Thousand by two o'clock, you know on a normal day. So like people aren't moving and so that lack of remember sleep is all about recovery. And so the reason we need recovery is because we have moved so you need to move in order to sleep better. So you need to get that back into your hole You Know regimen and that's one of the easiest easiest ways to improve Sleep Quality. The other is the elimination of caffeine and alcohol, right? I mean not a big surprise there to be fair. I like both of them so managing those and
That risk in a unique way can actually be very effective. Right? So none of my clients turn to me and say oh I never want to have alcohol again or I never want to have caffeine again. So what we've come up with is a set of rules, which I'm happy to share. So the first one we know is that based on your circadian rhythm and this is going to differ based on whatever your chronotype is 90 minutes after your supposed to wake up based on your chronotype. That's when you should have your caffeine. The reasoning is because cortisol and adrenaline have boosted you up to wake you up in the morning and so
When you have that those two things functioning in your brain adding caffeine does almost no good because it's cortisol and adrenaline are like cocaine compared to you know, like caffeine which is like weak tea what I'd in terms of just how powerful they are towards the brain. You got to let that simmer down before you add the caffeine on it. Otherwise, it's just not going to do you a whole lot of good. Is
there any harm that can come from like pouring caffeine into that milieu? So
not any harm per se but what ends up happening is people are like well nothing worked. Wow, and so then they take
Add another shot and then they had you know, and then they're getting their four-shot espresso or they're sick shot or whatever if they literally just waited then they'd get all the Boost that they're looking for. And then what ends up happening sometimes is if they exacerbate the caffeine as they get all the you know, the bad side effects of the of
the Jitters or yeah, things like that. I feel like so you're saying wait 90 minutes after you wake up 90 minutes after you open your eyes.
If you're waking up on your crown a typical wake up time got it. That's when it works. That's like that's the magic number and then caffeine has a half-life of
between six and eight hours. So most people don't think about it that way but it does and so my guesstimate is around two o'clock in the afternoon as good cutoff time. Hmm, right? Because then your it most people hit least here in North America go to bed somewhere on 1011. So eight hours later half of its out of your system, you know, it shouldn't prevent you from sleeping now, I guarantee you there's people who are listening and they're gonna like sleep doctor. You don't know what he's talking about. I can have a cup of coffee at dinner or espresso cappuccino and I go right to bed.
so let's be clear there are different caffeine sensitivities that something that we learned probably about eight or nine years ago now is different people react differently to caffeine but I'm going to tell you something I dare you to do this because here's what's going to happen is you might be able to fall asleep but the quality of the sleep you're getting is going to be pure crap right if I stuck electrodes on your head right up you had a cup of coffee and had you go to sleep caffeine is a stimulant it doesn't matter how you slice it that's how it acts in the brain so the closer to bedtime
that you drink caffeine the worse your slow-wave sleep is mmm right because you're it's you're moving too fast to be slow right is the easiest way to think about it caffeine is a stimulant slow-wave sleep it's called slow-wave for a reason the waves are slow hmm
so like drinking caffeine too late in the day could actually you're saying theoretically impaired how well your brain is able to clean itself of these plaques that it
came up I don't think there's any theoretical about it I would say absolutely wow
wow I would say that's the case wow yeah that's
That's frightening
depending on the amount of caffeine, of course in your tolerance level and things of that nature. And I mean your internal micro biome is obviously gonna have something to do with it. But yeah, I think there's absolutely I don't think there's any question well about whether or not there's an influence. I think the question would be if it's the sole
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A Paleo valley.com Max and you'll get 15% off. That's paleo. Valley.com Max and save 15% off of my favorite meat sticks and go-to snack. Oh, and I know you're just dying for a Max's favorite paleo Valley flavor update while the wait is over. I'm still going strong with Team Teriyaki. So head over to paleo valley.com Max to join me the fun and now back to my conversation with the amazing. Dr. Michael Bruce. It's funny because I got when I wake up I love
Just go to the kitchen. I drink a glass of water good and I then go right for the coffee. Ha ha ha like likely to drinking
the water. You know, why do you feel like you just want to have something to help you open
up in terms of the Kevin? Well, here's the thing. I actually I routinely take breaks from caffeine. I think it's important to not be dependent on it for sure. But when I am drinking caffeine, I tend to drink it, you know, maybe like 10 15 20 minutes just to be generous 20-30 minutes after I wake up.
Definitely not 90 minutes, but but I think probably I do that more for just the ritual of it. Like, you know, just like you can wake up you go downstairs is it's the
best part of waking up right? It's Folgers in your cup. It's so so my morning ritual so I had this similar ritual that you did. I mean, I think a lot of us do right, you know, we're kind of used to that whole idea. So here's the let me give you the science, right? I already told you the science on caffeine now, I'm gonna tell you the science on the the cheapest way to wake up. It's called sunlight right? And so here's
Deal is when the Sun hits your eye. There's a special cell in your eye called the melanopsin cell when the blue light from the Sun hits your eye. It turns that shit off turns off melatonin you wake up. So what I'd rather see people do is grab that water because that's absolutely what you want to do. Most people don't know sleep is a dehydrate event. Mmm, you lose almost a full liter of water from the humidity in your breath while sleeping all night long. So you're dehydrated when you wake up, which is another reason you shouldn't have caffeine because caffeine is a diuretic, you know, so you already have
A dehydrated system, you're going to add a diuretic to that. That's not a smart idea. I'd rather see you hydrate get some sunlight breathe some fresh air. I promise you you do that, you know 7 to 15 Mornings in a row, you will feel significantly better and you won't you probably won't even want that caffeine. If you do if you just wait that 90 minutes you'll be surprised at how much more you'll enjoy it.
Wow, how why is it that some people I was talking about my little brother about this and he was he shared this anecdote that you know when he sleeps a good eight hours. He feels great.
He under sleeps, he feels like crap. If you have to if you have to wake up on naturally early, but counter-intuitively. He also feels like crap if he sleeps too much, right
so it's fascinating. So there's a lot of interesting things that have been done with sleep deprivation over the years and trying to understand that whole idea. So we used to think of it as a we called it the Sleep debt, right? So there you had a bank you pulled out an hour's and whatever you put back and what was that was left was your debt right will so now that idea doesn't work so great because we don't always pull out eight hours.
Nor should we write so during different stages of Our Lives during different medical situations. If we are on certain medications stress blah blah blah. We're going to have different amounts. So it's really hard to kind of metric it that way. But when we start to think about amounts of sleep are the consistency thing, I know I'm beating this horse to death, but I'm promised you guys this I've never seen anything work as well as consistent wake up time because what it does is it just channels everything into it and you can't / sleep right? So, you know you saying
Rather we saying to you. Well, I feel like crap if I sleep too much your body my body doesn't let me do it like it just I'm up like and it drives me a little crazy to be really to be really honest with you because I'm always like if I open my eyes, it's going to be somewhere between six, you know, oh nine and 623. It's always right on like 613 614. It's spooky. Right and it drives me crazy, but it's like that's my brains time and it's really helpful because
Cause guess what? I'm the only one up in the house I can do whatever I want it I can read I can meditate I can go outside and breathe I can catch up on like the football scores from the night before like, you know, I can read about whatever I want to read about like it's perfect for me. You'd be surprised that you capture these times that can be pretty valuable under sleeping when we all know a lot about under sleeping in terms of creating sleep deprivation. The big question is acute versus sustained, right? So acute is do I pull an all-nighter?
Sustained is I've been losing like 90 minutes of sleep every night for the last 12 years Michael. What do I do? Right so our bodies will absorb a decent amount of that again. If I can get you into your Chrono typical sleep schedule your body just knows what to do there and it's literally like it's like a superpower. It's like you can plug into this like energy and all of a sudden it just clicks in and makes everything work better. So, I mean that's that's really always the goal is and
Part of the reason it feels worse when you don't sleep enough. He's because you're not in your Chrono typical schedule. And then when you sleep too much again, you're not in your
schedule. Wow. It's so great to hear you talk about these Chrono types because I've always felt somewhat guilty about idea of it being a night owl and not loving waking up at five in the morning like some of my load more productive friends
dude you me and Dave asprey, right? So Dave says, it's me all the time. He's like thank God you started telling people about wolves Michael because I'm because he's one hears, you know, it's fascinating.
Of
my artists most of my real creators are night owls, right? So artists actors authors lots and lots of those people there where night creatures, you know, like that's just that's when my ideas come that's when I'm the most creative. That's when I'm the most thoughtful and that's okay as long as you know it. Yeah, but you can work with it super
interesting. So what about ways of boosting REM REM
sleep so boosting REM sleep has
number one sleep in your car. No typical bedtime because you little naturally allow that to occur number two is it actually has a lot to do with doing things to maintain a solid sleep schedule. So I'm trying to avoid things that could be waking you up throughout the night. So things like having to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night or things like having too much caffeine on board caffeine just pretty much destroys all of it. Well cannabis can definitely have an effect on REM sleep and so for folks out there who are daily users of cannabis or evening users of cannabis.
This one of the things we know is continuous use of high levels of THC will definitely start to bring REM sleep down. Now, here's the interesting argument because people are always saying things to me like, well, you know, how can you support the idea of cannabis for sleep doctor Bruce if it lowers REM sleep and so here's my review no response to that every single SSRI Prozac Zoloft Effexor Abilify every single one of them almost completely knocks out REM sleep almost
completely people have been on those drugs for 30 years right without any appreciable REM sleep a little bit of cannabis. It doesn't knock it out. All it does is it lowers it down and I would argue that when you start to look at it and they're different isomers of THC. There's definitely a way to figure out how to get th see that doesn't, you know have a tremendous effect on REM sleep and to be fair. The thing you're really looking for is CBN. CBN is the constituent Within
This that actually has the most data surrounding positive tivity for sleep.
That's super interesting So within the cannabis plant you've got THC which is the psychoactive. That's what Matthew High then you've got CBD which is you know, P, it's been used clinically for a number of decades to treat certain seizure disorders things like that. It's now and you know, I mean you can find it anywhere. Unfortunately.
It's on an any on anything and in
everything. Yeah. I've seen it in Sparkling
Waters. Oh, dude, somebody tried to ask. They asked me if I would promote a pillow that was soaked in CBD
Edie it's got a
drive you a little crazy. It does drive me a lot
crazy. So just to be clear if you're looking to use CBD for sleep. It's not going to be your friend. Huh? You're talking about almost two hundred milligrams before we see any real what we call soporific or an insomniac
effects are saying is that the dose tends to be low and CBD products too low to you'd have to use almost a full bottle. Wow
in most cases. Now if you had CBN completely different story and a lot of people are discussing the idea of you know, CBN with a little with a small amount of THC.
The THC kind of lowers that anxiety CBN helps the natural sleep process. So I mean there's ways to think about this that I think are interesting right and look at the end of the day. We're not that far off from this.
Yeah super I've never heard of
CBN. Oh I've written about it quite a bit and if people are interested in you know, cannabis and sleep go to my blog to The Sleep dr.com forward slash blogs and just type in cannabis. I've written extensively probably eight or nine, you know, 2000 word
blogs any other any other supplements that you
You're a fan of in terms of sleep. You
know, here's what I tell you that I'm a big fan of is making sure that our bodies have what it's supposed to have. So I don't start with supplements. I start with vitamins and minerals. So I'm a big fan of vitamin D. I'm a big fan of magnesium. I'm a big fan of iron and a big fan of melatonin. So my goal is to make sure that all of these things are at the right levels for my individual. So when I again have like one of these people who had come in and do the coaching with the very first thing we do is I work with their MD doctors
And I say Let's do let's run blood work. And these are the things I want to look at. So I look for deficiencies. Guess what most people are deficient in magnesium and vitamin D. So I'm almost always starting those out first and we start to see almost immediate gains in the Sleep Department from having those on board. Wow, very very quickly. If and especially in my female clients if we discovered that their iron deficient iron has a lot to do with the sleep cycle as well. So that can be very helpful. And then some people who complain of restlessness and sleep we've now discovered
I've heard that a d deficiency in something called ferritin, which is a type of iron causes almost feels like restless leg syndrome. And so we can knock that out with just iron sulfate like it's super easy. So I check all those types of things. Like I want the body to be working the way the body is supposed to First. Yeah what we start introducing new ideas and herbs and things like that. As far as melatonin is concerned 90% of people have got enough melatonin in them and there and it's going just fine. So member melatonin is a hormone even though you can buy it at the local.
Food store which you probably shouldn't be able to do it's by prescription only in Europe many people don't even know that that's very interesting. Yeah. So what's interesting about melatonin is it's a hormone right? People are giving it to their kids. I don't like that idea.
Yeah, I've heard that that's not
smart. I've got a 16 year old daughter. She's never had melatonin. Guess why she doesn't need it. Yeah, ninety-nine percent of children don't need melatonin. They create a tremendous amount of it. It's actually one of the biggest hormones that's produced during those adolescent years.
So I don't think it's necessary. I will tell you this there is one subset of children that melatonin works very well in and is necessary and that's kids on the Spectrum on the autism spectrum. So I'll cross that Spectrum we've seen really good results with three and five milligrams sometimes six or eight milligram dosage is for those kids at night, but that's the only group that's my big caveat is that the only group of kids that I've actually seen data that I trust that if that melatonin is a good idea for children. Also, we see melatonin
Can be helpful for people like age 50 55 and up. So I'm 52. So I'm kind of starting to get into that range, but we know that melatonin production begins to decline then and so sometimes that can change your chronotype, right? And so I might go from being a night owl to being a bear, you know in the middle. I might go from being a wolf to a bear because my melatonin is now moving at a different, you know time period because of my age so on occasion, we do have some patients who would prefer their old chronotype so they can stay on a melatonin
supplement interesting. I had a
Doctor of naturopathic doctor on the podcast and he said something about melatonin that I thought was really interesting for shift workers. You know. Yeah. So
shift work is a whole different ball game and like there's shift work medicine is like a hold unique subspecialty and I've worked in those Arenas before I'm a fan of melatonin for those people because you're basically forcing your circadian rhythm out of whack. Yeah now to be fair what they really should do is they should screen people and say hey all you night owls come.
The Late Shift right that would make intuitive sense trips to genetically the problem is the reason that that doesn't work. That way is because you get time and a half or double time working the night shift. So a lot of people like to work the night shift because the dollars are better it is more right, you know, and so they don't realize what a toll it takes on your health. If you're not one of those people who's like me a night owl or it sounds like you and night owl and you're working the night shift. I mean the increase in suicide the increase in mental health problems the increase in high blood pressure.
It's astounding right. I mean it just it's there but I mean melatonin use in those populations make sense also light therapy makes sense for them to write because light therapy helps suppress the melatonin and then you add the Melatonin when you need it back.
Yeah, super interesting the light therapy thing I think is well light in general is so important. Yeah, are you a fan of like red light? I am photobiomodulation and you know their stuff I am
so, you know from from an inflammation standpoint. I think there's some really interesting data on it as far as
Sleep is concerned. We have not seen a tremendous amount of data in the Sleep Universe with red light and sleep as of yet. What we have seen is that red light is good because there's no blue light and so by you know, pushing all the blue light out with having such a red universe that that works right so that you could say that it's helpful. Is it is it in addition? I don't know. Yeah, right but I think science is going to bear that out. I mean, there are a lot of companies out there. They're starting to look at that. I can tell you that, you know blue light in the morning is high.
Highly effective for things like seasonal affective disorder for being able to you know, move shift workers around a jet lag in particular. So we do a lot of work with jet lag and so some of my clients come to see me only for jet lag as a matter of fact, so it's pretty it's pretty
interesting. Wow. Yeah, there's just their men sleep as it's so it's so crucially important and it's just one of those things that like Yeah by trying to cut Corners with sleep. You really are like under my
meaning everything everything
literally everything dude it's like everything you do you do better with a good night's sleep I mean every organ system every disease state is affected by sleep I mean the good ones and the bad ones right so cancer is a perfect example we now know that we can deliver chemotherapy at particular times in a person's circadian cycle we can use less chemo and it's more effective dude last poison more progress only by just administering this at a different time in your circadian cycle
I mean it's called Chrono Therapeutics like I'm working with a company and we're developing apps for Physicians to be able to know and understand when to do this like Sloan-Kettering is already starting to adopt some of these some of these protocols it's fascinating
wow like literally giving people came out in accordance with their either there grunting sighs wow yeah
it's amazing I mean saving people's lives that's what we that's the goal right
yeah Cheese's what can people do I like how militants are you about the light that enters your eyes in the evening
like you know I'll tell you pros and cons in either direction right so I full disclosure I've got my own line of blue light blocking glasses I did that because my kids are Gamers and I couldn't find any glasses that they liked enough to be willing to wear them right and so there's a lot of different glasses that are on the marketplace and some of them are amazing and I mean they can knock out a hundred percent of the blue light but the problem is you almost can't see anything right and so my kids were like we're not going to wear those dad because we can't see the screen so you need to figure this and so we
found ones that really block a preponderance of the light and the reason they do is because they're of that Amber shade so what you're seeing now in the marketplace is there's been a commoditization right so everybody's going to the lowest price and everybody wants clear blue light blocking glasses so the thing that nobody's telling anybody is it's not just about blocking the wavelength but it's also about blocking the brightness and that's what the Amber coding does is it blocks the brightness so if you want to work you gotta have Amber glasses
yeah like the clear blue blocking glasses to me never made any sense don't you shit yeah because blue you're still seeing
blue you are yeah Subaru I definitely enjoy wearing them I feel great when I wear them I put
them on like 90 minutes before bed depending upon what I'm doing yeah right you know if I'm if I'm gonna have a light source in front of me where I'm you know looking at you know Facebook or whatever then yeah I probably should have them on but if I'm watching TV from across the room I might I might not it just depends
you know it would it would be amazing if TV manufacturers built in night shift into TVs right so
here's the problem with that is night shift doesn't really work
huh yeah so there was a study out of Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute where they took night shift and they actually measured melatonin production for using it and not using it it had
zero of no effect no so night shift is like if you shift is bullshit for like the Samsung users I guess night shift is like the it's a feature on your on your iPhone that basically the scrubs the screen becomes increasingly orange as the as it becomes you know
dark outside so the reason that it doesn't work very well as because you what you're talking about is something called color temperature so color temperature is a
You can chat. So to be clear. There is a free application called flux FL you Ox you can download FL ux you can download it to your laptop and it will it's for free at these guys are awesome. They're like True Light scientists. Like they're totally down there the lightest Geeks you could possibly imagine but they're awesome and you put this on your computer and it will slow down it will actually change What's called the color temperature as opposed to just the brightness. So it's for folks who might remember this it's the difference between turning the volume up and down and changing the
The the treble and the
bass, right? Wow, what are some things that people can do in you know aside from the glasses in the immediate, you know one to two to three hours before going to sleep sure that are going to help with Sleep Quality. So I mean, it depends
upon like who you are as a human and sort of what has to happen for you. So like if you've got young kids that that might take up a tremendous amount of your time energy and stuff. But if you're if you don't or you know, let's say because the three hours before bed that's a big line chunk of time. So let's say the
Our our bed, right? So what I did was I created a technique I call the power down our right? So here's the thing that people don't realize is sleeps. Not an on/off switch. You need you need some Runway right to kind of land that plane. And so what I've discovered is if I take the hour before bed and I chop it up into three twenty minute segments. So 20 minutes for just should I got to do right? So maybe it might be said that last e-mail it might be, you know find sports equipment for my kids. So, you know for the next day 20 minutes for Hygiene so, you know pressure.
Teeth wash your face take a hot shower bath. Whatever it is you do and then 20 minutes for some form of meditation relaxation prayer, like whatever gets you there, right? So remember the biggest metric that's important for falling asleep is heart rate. Your heart rate needs to be at 60 or below period that's how it works.
I was I had a girlfriend once and she only had one girlfriend. Well, no, I had one girlfriend particular.
And it was a very long-term on and off again relationship. One thing that she always brought up to me, which I thought was so funny when we were like in our 20s she
Sex raises your heart rate, right? So once I just remember it was like after event and I was like exhausted. I was like, I just could not wait to get to sleep. Right and we're in bed and she was in the mood right? And I remember, you know, first of all, you should never look a gift horse in the house in the mouth when somebody is trying to have sex with you you should have sex you should have sex but I you know, I can be selfish and if it's consensual if it's yeah, but I remember I said to her and she remembered it. She has always remembered it and I
Good reason I was like, I don't want to raise my heart rate right now.
That's hilarious. Yeah, so there's so there's a
whole. She never let me live it down by the way,
I'm sure so here's what's interesting about sex before sleep is it's different for male versus female. So it's not a big surprise that a lot of women complain. Oh my God, he falls
asleep after you know, we have sex all the time, you know, and I'm up and you
know around actually that's hormonal e accurate. So what we think is going on here is when testosterone mixes with orexin which is like that love cut.
A hormone which happens usually after orgasm that seems to cause a soporific or a sedative effect when it combines with estrogen. It does the opposite it makes them actually have more energy. So the truth of matter is is you'd have been better having sex and then just fallen asleep immediately, but she would have been up for you know an extended period of time.
Wow, so wait so for men sex before bed makes them sleepy makes them
sleepy for women. It makes them honestly want to just get up and go do something interesting. Yeah, so, but what's interesting?
Is when you look at what's the perfect time for sex, it's actually not even what you would might imagine right? And so it used to be not tonight. I have a headache now, honestly, it's like not tonight. I'm too freaking exhausted right people are so tired and they're trying to figure this whole thing out. So but when you look at it hormonal e it's very fascinating. So you need five hormones to have successful sex. You need estrogen testosterone progesterone adrenaline and cortisol. Now, I'll need to be high. They need melatonin to be low right make sense right energy hormone sleep hormones high low.
Whoa. All right. I'll give you one guess what your hormone profile looks like it 10:30 at night.
Probably not conducive not super conducive time. Literally.
It's literally the opposite right of what you would want to
happen. When is the best time of day to have sex?
So what's interesting is 74 percent of people have sex somewhere between 10:30 and 11:30 at night. We actually did a survey it's quite fascinating work. And so what we discovered is that their hormone profile is off at night. So that's clue. Number one has to win should people be having sex. Nah,
To what do most men wake up with direction direction, right? And so if that's not Mother Nature telling you when to use that thing, I'm really not sure. What is that's amazed. So guess what all your testosterone is high after REM sleep which is what you have at the back half of the night. So guess what if you get a good night's sleep you should be active in the morning morning sex is probably the best sex. You could have not only from a performance standpoint like not only from a physical but also from like an emotional connection standpoint as well. That's what the that's what the data would suggest.
And women seem to be more receptive to sex in the morning than sex in the evenings. And here is the funniest part of all the research men were like whenever like whenever it was offered men were like, yes, but women were much more receptive to sex in the morning and then it turns out that it's based on your chronotype to right. So this is where it got really interesting. So the book I actually had to create a matrix. So I've got like chronotype on one side in partner chronotype on the other and then we had to create a a gay and a lesbian one because the hormones are different.
Right. So I have three different matrices. It's really cool to science is
awesome. Wow, that's so interesting with the morning sex thing is funny because it's like yeah, it's like, you know, it's a brush your teeth. You gotta brush. It just feels like your body has things that it needs to do before, you know, you may be saying but but that's really that's good information. That is like, wow. The number one question that I get asked by journalists best time to have sex. Yep. Well number one, how can we like
Any like performance hacks for like night sex. Um,
that's an interesting question. I don't I don't know if I've ever really thought through that as an idea. I mean the biggest, you know, I mean sex, I mean it depends on what aspect of sex you would want to hack right? So I mean if it was like, you know sustaining then you're looking at heart rate, right? That's because it's all about heart rate and blood pressure because that's where all the that's where all the learnings from Tantra come from. Right is this being able to keep a solid blood pressure? Give me a solid heart rate that's really where and keeping that energy kind of
Bay that's really where that that's really weird Tantra gets most of its energy from so I would argue that probably be the same thing, but I don't I don't know anything. Yeah, that's so not my area of expertise.
But so cool man, dude. Well, it's been so fun to have you here. I feel like we could keep talking for hours. But is this your last book The Power of when
this is yeah. This is the last book so our of went but I got another one that's going to be not for a while. So maybe I'll come back when that one's coming to be amazing. Yeah,
it's all going to be about energy, but it's cool because like we talked all about
Chrono types, and this is a great book to help you learn to figure out your chronotype.
Absolutely so you can go to Chrono quiz.com and you can figure out what your chronotype is. You don't even have to buy the book. But if you buy the book you can learn about the best time to have sex. You can learn about the best time to ask your boss for a raise to eat a cheeseburger to write a book to tell a joke. The data is really compelling and it's a lot of fun we've discovered. It's a great communication tool. There's a chapter in there about when's the best time to talk to your kids and it's been great.
Like people like I get a lot of letters from parents and they're like, oh wow, my teenagers a night owl right? Like if I talk to them at, you know nine o'clock at night. I get very different responses than if I try to talk to them at eight o'clock in the morning, like it's really cool stuff.
But and you but as you mentioned like Chrono Trigger and Chrono types change over
time, yeah, they do.
Yeah. It's so interesting. I mean, I remember like as a teen like my just my parents not being able to understand why I needed so much sleep and I was like, I'm not like laying in bed.
For fun. I like I'm laying it. You know
like do I'll give you the quintessential story. That'll that'll it's a great. It's a great way for the end of the interview to end is my dad would come in at age 16 and he at would be it would be two o'clock in the afternoon on Saturday afternoon, and I'd still be in bed and he'd be like, how are you ever going to make something of yourself by sleeping all day and now I'm the freaking sleep doctor, right? So it's like you can kiss my butt bad
and the same story with my parents. That's so funny. Well where can listeners find
You on social media? Yeah, I'm super easy to find the sleep doctor.com. I'm that's my handle is the sleep doctor. So Instagram Facebook LinkedIn Pinterest. I don't know if I did I miss one Twitter there. It's all the sleep doctor. So please follow me. We do put out a lot of tips and hacks and things like that that are really fun on Instagram. So you can hit me up on Instagram or Facebook. We do the same thing.
That's awesome. And when people find you it's like a cartoon Avatar of
you right? I do we have a cartoon Avatar. We have we have a lot of
Fun stuff we have school. Look at the end of the day. We're just want to educate people about better sleep and find really good products that really work for people and match them up.
Yeah, I love that. So important the last question that gets asked to everybody on the show. Dr. Bruce. What does it mean to you to live a genius
life? Oh, what does it mean? I think to live a genius life would be to always be open to new ideas and energy because I think that's really the only way
that you continue to progress. Mmm. I love that.
Short and sweet doodle. Thanks for being
here. Yeah, thanks for having me. This
is fun. Yeah, of course to all you guys thank you for your time and attention is always texts me to let me know what you thought about this episode of the show 310 2999 401 pick up. Dr. Bruce has book The Power of when and I'll catch you on the next episode,
please.
