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Hello boys and girls. Lemurs and squirrels. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. My guest today is Andrew Weil. MD. He is a Pioneer in the field of Integrative Medicine. He is also been named one of the 100 most influential people in the world by Time Magazine. So let's cover some backstory doctor while received a degree in biology. In this case botany that was the focus from Harvard College in 1964 and an MD from Harvard Medical School in 1968 I'll skip some of his
Should we cover a lot in the first ever conversation? We had on this podcast but from 1971 to 75 as a fellow of The Institute of current world affairs. Dr. Wilde traveled, all over the place in North and South America, and Africa collecting information on drug use and other cultures, medicinal plants, and alternative methods of treating disease from 71 to 80 for. He was on the research staff of the Harvard botanical museum and conducted investigations of medicinal and psychoactive plants. He really knows what he's talking about. Dr. Weil is the founder and director.
Sure, of the Andrew Wiles Center for integrative medicine. At the University of Arizona where he also holds the level Jones and Dowd chair and Integrative Medicine. He is a clinical professor of medicine and professor of Public Health. He is a fantastic Communicator through its Fellowship in Integrative Medicine. In residency, curricula the center is now training, doctors and nurse practitioners all over the world and York Times bestselling author. Doctor while is the other 15 books on health and well-being. I don't know how you have the longevity and endurance to write 15 books.
Petered out after five, but he has written many. And I'll just mention a few Mind Over meds fast, food, good food, true food, that name will come up again. Spontaneous happiness, healthy aging, and eight weeks to Optimum Health. He is also co-founder of the restaurant train, True, Food Kitchen. I go there often and Austin, Texas. And co-founder of matcha.com that is ma tcha.com, which offers extremely high quality matcha, that is difficult to find outside of Japan. You can find him on all the socials. Dr.
While and it's Dr. W E IL. There's also the website doctor all.com. You can find the matcha.com company at said URL and also on Instagram at matcha car e Ka RI and without further Ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with none other than Andrew Weil MD.
Andy, welcome back to the show. It's nice to see you again.
Yeah, thanks Tim. Good to see
you. And I thought I would start with a little revisitation to one takeaway from our last conversation, and for people who didn't hear the first conversation I want to recommend, they do go back and listen because we cover a lot of biographical information, and many different nooks and crannies that we won't cover this conversation.
But there's one,
which was the 478 breath that. I believe you learned from dr. Robert fulford, who was if I remember correctly,
Osteopath. Am I getting that wreck?
Correct. Do you still use the 478 breath?
Well I do it myself regularly. I do it a number of times a day I teach it to almost everyone. I meet I teach it to all the doctors I train. I teach it to patients whenever I get the chance I do it. When I give talks often and by doing it I don't remember whether I told you. Last time I was invited by the NSA to come in now and uh this was a few years ago out of the blue. The NSA asked me if I would come and talk to
Them about stress and how to manage it. So there's an audience of about 1,000 and then it was telecast to remote sites around the world and I had them all doing the 478 breath, which is very
satisfying. Could you recap just for folks, what the 478 breath is? Just the format of it and then what is? Yeah, accomplishes, because I did it earlier today and found it to be such a rapid State change mechanism. I had felt neglectful for not doing it more often since our last conversation, but if you could just do a recapture
First of all, if people just will Google my name and 478 on YouTube, You'll Find videos of me doing it, which gives details. And the last I looked there were millions of hits on that YouTube thing. Anyway, the basic technique is to breathe quietly in through the nose to a count of four. Hold the breath for a count of seven and then forcibly blow air Earth out through the mouth, for a count of eight and repeat that for for breath Cycles. When you're first learning it, eventually go up to eight breath Cycles. But no more than that,
And to do this religiously at least twice a day and the real effects come after doing this regularly, for four to six weeks and they're really remarkable. This is the most powerful method I found to access the relaxation response and it's the most powerful anti-anxiety measure I've ever come across.
Let's talk about perhaps, another tool that people might associate with stress, alleviation, or at least some people use it for that, but you were one of the earliest public advocate's of
Cannabis. Advised Congress on early cannabis policy and also conducted and published human trials with cannabis your personal relationship to cannabis has changed over the decades and I've be curious to know what your current use if any looks like and for what purpose, you use cannabis.
I don't use it at all Tim and I have not used it for probably 20, 25 years and my relationship has changed so dramatically.
Ali over the years. In my 20s late 20s early 30s. It was a source of great, fun and pleasure and really stimulated. My creativity, help me right then, I think gradually it turned into more of an introspective experience. And then somewhere in my late 30s, early 40s, I really stopped, getting useful effects from it. And I found that just made me groggy and sedated. And I kept using it even though I wasn't getting any valuable effects and finally stopped. And now, you know, I just haven't
In long time and has no interest for
me. Are there any particular tools that you use plants or otherwise for writing? I imagine you still do a fair amount of writing. Is there anything that has filled that gap for you? One
is matcha green tea and the other is coca leaf. As you know I'm a great fan of coca leaf and I've worked for many years to try to rehabilitate coca to teach people the differences between Coke and cocaine and I'm delighted to see finally.
After all this time, there is some momentum building around legalizing coca making it
available. What is that momentum? If you could speak to it? Because I've had very limited exposure to Coca, but it was given to me when I suffered from altitude sickness in South America and Lively, literally within 45 minutes, my symptoms had all, but vanished, it was incredible to experience the effects firsthand. But what momentum, what it changes are you seeing in the United
States? Well, first of all, there's a lot of changes in
B and in other countries and in this country to there are groups forming really working to legalize coca to make it medically available to make it available to people to teach people the differences between Coke and cocaine. One group that I've been doing some work with that you may know of as the River Styx Foundation I do. Yeah. And how do you Swift Esther? OD Swift and they're very interested in trying to fund Coker research to document some of the medical benefits, but it's the first time in 40, some years that
I've seen any change in attitudes up here and I think would be great thing for people to have access to Coke. It's not cocaine, it has distinct effects. It has unique medical effects, we should have access to it. Not to mention the fact that this is the sacred plant of a great, many indigenous people in South America, and it has been so demonized by our society. And I think given all the momentum around looking at indigenous cultures and writes that
It's also plays into this of rehabilitating the Sacred Leaf. I agree with that 100%. And I want to
give River Styx, Foundation, Cody, Swift and his team. Also a nod for their work, with respect to an organization called the indigenous peyote conservation initiative. I PCI. Yeah, which purchased a tract of land in Texas. So not too far from where I live. All the Texas has effectively country it's gigantic. So don't
history drive time and it is become such a symbol of Hope for so many Native American groups throughout the United States including groups who historically would not necessarily automatically get along. It's been this unifying such catalyzing project so I want to give them a nod for that. Could you speak to an explain the, beneficial plants, research Association?
This is a well, it's a Research Foundation.
That I started in 1979. Way ahead of its time, we had a stellar Advisory Board, including dick, schulte's Albert, Hofmann, Alexander shulgin. I mean, there was an amazing Advisory Group and the purpose of this was to look at plants that had been neglected or unrecognized that could be of great benefit up here. Starting with Coca was one of the main ones, but we looked at other kinds of stimulants Cava, which at that time was relatively unknown.
Known. So the idea was to get research going on these the teach people about them. And as I say, it was just way ahead of its time. So eventually we folded, but I'm really interested in resurrecting this and a common interest of Cody Swift. And mine is looking at demonized plants and my feeling has always been, you know, a theme of my writing has been that there are no good or bad drugs, they were just good and bad relationships with drugs and I think you can broaden that the plants as well.
And Coca being a prime example. We've said that is a bad plant in the source of all sorts of trouble. But the problem is how we've related to that. Plan taking cocaine out of it and making that available and I think if you look at it, there's a whole bunch of other plants that we consider problematic. And it's really how we've related to them. That's the problem and I think it would be interesting to try to rehabilitate. Some just as an example, things like Ephedra and cot, opium poppies tobacco, even that
It's our misuses of these that I've caused trouble. It's not the plan
itself. I was going to mention the last tobacco which I never thought in a million years. I would develop an interest in because I grew up hating smoking and everything related to cigarette smoking but after spending more time in South America and reading books, I'm going to get the title wrong. But it's something like tobacco and Shamanism in South America thinks yo.hannes Wilbert Johannes. Excellent book. Very dense. It's not Light reading for people who are looking.
King for something to snack on before bed is probably not the book but let me come back to one that you mentioned and that is Cava. So, a friend of mine reached out to me recently to get my two cents on a new supplement that he is taking in place of his evening cocktail. So he's decided he's in his 70s and has decided to cut back on alcohol intake, because he sees how alcohol affects his sleep using an aura ring, another devices, and he switched to this supplement.
Which contains two things Kratom and Cava. And I know very little about Cava Kratom I have some thoughts on, to be curious to hear your thoughts on contains. Mr. Gene, seems to hit opiate receptors. So I believe there are people who abuse Kratom who have now developed dependencies that are in rehab. At least, I've heard some stories related to that but I know far less about Cava. Would you mind elaborating on kava?
Cava is the major psychoactive plant that's used in Oceania, in many islands throughout the Pacific, it's the very large root of a large Plant, in the black pepper family, and it is has unique chemistry. In many of these islands, people make a beverage from it. Originally by chewing the root and spitting it into a bowl and mixing it with water coconut juice or now more often drawing it and powdering,
It and mixing it into a liquid. And it is functions as a social, stimulant and lubricant, but it is a natural sedative, and calmative, and probably the most important anti-anxiety natural product out there, extremely useful, and essentially no toxicity. And so it does not interact with alcohol does not interact with other sedatives. It's quite safe and I recommend it very frequently to
people. Do you know what, effect if any it has on
Equality. My friend has the subjective experience of it, helping him to wind down, and go to sleep, but I wonder what effect it has on Sleep Quality because you look at some say sleep aids like Ambien and so on which help you to fall asleep, but they affect the cycles of sleep and depth. That's
putting it mildly. You know, if he's right all of these understatement. Yeah. Whether over-the-counter or prescribed I think are dangerous drugs. First of all, they don't reproduce natural sleep. All of them suppressed, dream.
Wing, which is an essential component of good sleep. They distort sleep architecture their addictive, and they interfere with cognitive function. So I think there's really no justification for using them unless for very short-term use because of situational insomnia, but Cava has none of these ill effects. It can be used long-term regularly. I don't know that we have good studies on how it affects Sleep Quality, but I don't know of any indications that it has any of those adverse effects that the
Usual sleep, aids
do and I suppose I should actually just go back to my friend who is granted tracking imperfectly but he's tracking his sleep with the aura ring. That does capture some biometric data that is interpolated to
land on percentage of sleep as different phases including REM and so on. So I should actually just go back to him.
But the problem to him is that he's using Kratom also, which is a significant agent and we really would like to see this with Cava long, what it
does. So could you expand on that? Please
II. Don't know that much about Kratom. It's been used in Indonesia where its native to help people. Break, opioid, dependence. Hmm. And it has
Sedative effects and opioid, like effects. I think there is a downside to it. And some concern about people using it in, not good ways, but I'm not an expert on crack.
Tom I'll mention to folks who are interested in perhaps learning a bit more about it. There's a good episode of Hamilton's. Pharmacopoeia, pharmacopoeia, I never know how to pronounce that. Second word that covers Kratom and mr. Gene, and goes into the chemistry and the history which
Each and also environmental costs, depending on how these things are harvested, which I can recommend to folks, that can be found wherever you find your finest videos, Amazon Prime and other places for sure, since I invoke the name of Hamilton Morris. I want to actually jump into a separate episode of his, where he attempts to identify the first known use of bufo alvarius, so the Sonoran Desert. Yes, I remember that. Now, his conclusion was that there is no compelling.
Evidence to suggest indigenous use. And in fact, the first documented use of at least smoking the crystallized Venom from the Sonoran Desert toad was documented in 1989, by this amateur, chemist named Ken Nelson. I think it was, are you aware of other use of that species or other species? I know you've looked at this.
Well, I think I'm one of the first people to have smoke toad Venom. I did that with Wade, Davis. And we wrote the first scientific paper about
Bufo alvarius, you know, we we have not been given much credit for that, but we really were the first people to report on it scientifically, and we speculated that it was possible that there was indigenous use of toad, venom for all sorts of suggestive reasons. I don't think there is any definitive evidence of that, you know, I think this graduate student published a paper in which they identified, five methoxy DMT in the Venom, making this unique among toads. And some people read that
Got the idea of using toad Venom and it's spread among hippies in the southwest and that's where I learned it. From a hippie friend named white dog. I think he's mentioned yet horse, he was a great character and I lived out and I had a property in the desert that bordered on Saguaro National Park and I had was surrounded by toads in the summer, you know, they're eating machines, they just eat insects all the time. And I had a outdoor lights and they'd hop in the house and these are huge animals, their football.
Sized and you know, I would pick them up they pee on you as soon as you pick them up and there's so strange looking and I milk the Venom and Wade, Davis. And I smoked it and amazing because this is the first known occurrence of a psychedelic drug from an animal source so that was really, you know, that scientifically very
interesting. Now, Wade Davis, would you mind just providing a snapshot of who Wade Davis has and why?
You're firing the beneficial plants, research Association backup at this point in time.
Wade, was a graduate student of Richard Evans. Schulte's, she'll tease was my mentor as an undergraduate at Harvard, and then I had a very close association with him at the Harvard botanical museum for many years. So I got to know Wade when he was a graduate student, you know, he's now a very well-known Anthropologist ethnobotanist prolific writer and traveler you know, a good friend very
A bright guy and he liked me as also very interested in the Coca project and works with River Styx and my feeling is that, as I said, the beneficial plant research Association was way ahead of its time but now I think there is traction out there there's so many plants yet to be discovered that have beneficial effects not just psychoactive ones, but things with medicinal effects stimulants sedatives, do all sorts of things that are potentially useful and I'm a great believer in natural products.
And think that in many ways, many of them are superior to synthetic chemical drugs. And I like to help people know about them and I want to see research on them and discovery of more of these. So I think it's time to try this
again. Also for folks who may want to double click on Wade, Davis, couple of of notes, believe it was one river that he wrote which Chronicles, much of Richard Evans. Schulte's Adventures was also considered in some respects, The Godfather.
Of modern ethnobotany, I suppose would be fair to say and his name is come up with dr. Mark Plotkin on this podcast before us. We've spent some time chatting about Richard Evans, schulte's. Also, if anyone who's watching, if you're of my vintage or older because the movie is a little older has seen The Serpent and the rainbow, yeah, it's not a purely factual account, but still touches on the investigation of zombification and zombie potions in
Haiti and is one of the trippier historical investigations that you can imagine. I mean it's
and that was made from a book. That was ways. First book was the serpent in the rain.
Yeah. Yeah. He's a very good writer. Very good. Speaker has quite a few TED Talks. I think, let
me, can I tell you if she'll tease story? Yes, please, so in my first year at Harvard, I had to choose a major. I had no idea what I wanted to study because I was interested in too many things. I was flipping through the Harvard course, catalog and I
I came across this course called plants and human Affairs and that was a strange name. So, to register for this, you have to go to the Harvard botanical museum. It was this old Victorian brick building and when I went in coming out of it was the first long-haired, man. I'd ever seen a Proto hippie, this was in 1960 who was probably up in the library, which had the greatest collection of books on psychoactive plants. So the Schulte says,
Was decorated with blow guns from South America and all sorts of artifacts from his travels. And plants in human Affairs, was about economic botany plants that are of economic importance, other than ornamentals and it included sections on food, plants, medicinal, plants, drug plans. And each week, we had a laboratory in which we tried things and the for instance, there was a fruit of the week that people would go from all over the world sent and fruits which are in a freezer and we get to try these
exotic things. But then there was a lab on making soap and one on making ink and one on drug plants in which we tried this really obscure stimulant plant from South America L called Yoko that has the highest percentage of caffeine of any known plant. I think it's the only academic course I ever took in which I learned things of practical value. It was it was fabulous and, you know, and so I really formed a close connection with schulte's and state associated.
Him for many years, after let's
stay on Harvard for a minute. So you and your history, we've into science, botany, psychedelic history and so many different ways. But before we get to that in the course of trying to find novel questions or topics to explore in this conversation, so it's not to duplicate the first. So, I came across a note, I think this is actually a doctor world.com.
What's funny about turning 72, was this blog post. I'll just read a paragraph and I'd love for you to expand on this. I also had a brief career at Harvard as a letter-writing prankster. I would procure letterhead stationery from powerful people in organizations by various means and send prank letters to self-important people who I thought needed. Deflating fun but also die xia times. I had to give it up. Okay, good. Can you please elaborate a bit on
this? We probably shouldn't go into that but I gotta I got very good at this and
And as a result, people would actually commissioned me to write prank letters and give me station, or I had, I had White House stationary point. I had, I had the mayor of New York stationary. I did terrible things that I had this gold embossed stationery from the mayor of New York's office. I had the president of Princeton University's this year and I gave an honorary degree to the mayor of New York from Princeton invited him to come
Come speak at commencement. Wow, so often I had no idea what the results of these were, you know, that I am. They just sent them out there and I didn't know what would
happen. So this is in the days before. Photoshop, how did you have Frank Abagnale of Catch Me? If You Can just forging this stationary, did you know how real cure you got? You got the real
deal? I got some myself and I'd agents, who would procure it for me?
Okay. Now agent, this makes me think of something. I
Also dug up, which was your time as a, let's call it, a double agent at the Harvard Lampoon. And at the Harvard Crimson is that am I getting that
right? You are that's that was never done. These were rival organizations and nobody had ever been on both at the same time. So that was a little uncomfortable what it was made for some interesting times.
All right? For people wondering, I mean the Harvard Lampoon is a satire magazine that is produced. I've been Conan
O'Brien, you go down the list. I mean, it long list of famous comedians and writers producers and so on, including a few people who have been on this show, and then the Crimson is the, the school paper. I was doing some searching, just to see what has happened the last few years in terms of news coverage, including your name. And I one came up that is related to, let's just call it the Psychedelic Renaissance, is some people have called it that we are witnessing now.
And the headline is at Harvard, psychedelic drugs tentative Renaissance and I'll just read the intro and then I have a question. So in the early 1960s, the Harvard psilocybin project made national headlines for. It's unethical research methods and controversial leader psychologist Timothy afluria. A lot of people recognize that name. Someone Nixon called the most dangerous man in America. Now 60 years after lyrics departure Harvard is Again part of the conversation around the future of psychedelics from research, in the lab to conversations among the student body psychedelics are making a tentative yet undeniable Renaissance on campus Renaissance.
Ashes of Harvard's checkered history with the substances yet, working to move Beyond it. I found your name in here because at the Crimson you wrote about as I understand it. Leary. And who is then? Richard Albert later. Ramdas could you just describe the coverage? How that came about how you relate to it? Now, what effect that had because that a huge effect mean seem to have a huge impact on mainstream culture. I was
the only thing member of the Crimson who had a science background noise, majoring in biology
Elegy. So it felt I was assigned to be the writer about this controversy as it developed. I met Larry and Albert in the early days, by the way. I think the early research they did was really terrific. You know they were the first people to really emphasize set and setting as really important determinants of drug experiences. They documented very positive effects of psychedelic experiences on prisoners in Concord Reformatory. I mean, really interesting stuff.
And that was before they started a kind of cult grew up around them. The Faculty got very upset, I was the one who wrote stories about that, I have mixed feelings about that, but I've come to peace with it. I you know, made peace with Leary sometime few years. After I graduated then Ram Dass you know, I knew over the years, I did fundraisers for him when he had his stroke and a few years before you died, I had a really good meeting with him in Maui and which he said that I had
Him a Blessing by forcing him out of Harvard because otherwise he wouldn't have been Ram.
Dass, you know, certainly true. And it's worth folks who are familiar with. Rhonda is going back and looking at the early photos of Richard Alpert, quite different, very different, very different. Look
at em. Can I also say, you know, that you talking about this psychedelic Renaissance? It astonishes me, the momentum and the mainstreaming of this, a few months ago, Town & Country magazine of all places Padme.
Major article titled. Why is everyone smoking toad Venom in
Town and Country mag?
That's wild. Yeah, really
it seems like something out of a South Park episode from a few years ago.
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Let's actually talk about the newest chapters and I guess this is kind of a two-part question. So if you're open to it you said you've sort of had mixed feelings and come to peace with the early writing. I'd love for you to expand on that if you're willing to and then from your perspective and observation of what's Happening. Now what you think people are paying too much attention to or too little attention to
everywhere that I have gone to speak in the past few years? No matter.
Topic. I'm talking about whether it's nutrition. Healthy aging, Integrative Medicine. I get questions about psychedelics know, people want to know where they can access them, how they can have these experiences. I mean, there is just a hunger out there and I find that amazing. And I think it's a very good thing happening in our society. May be the one of the only good things I see happening in our society and I think the more people who have positive psychedelic experiences that may lead to the change in,
Consciousness, which I think is the only thing that can turn things around for
us. Do you see people getting anything wrong or making mistakes over emphasizing things, anything that you'd like to draw attention to? When You observe this given your Decades of observation and space?
Well I'm sure there are still plenty of people who are using psychedelics just as party drugs and recreational drugs. And I guess that's fine, but I think they miss out on the you know the real potentials of these things.
I think the medical profession is really slow to look at how they can make use of these drugs. We're still waiting to see them moved out of schedule 1 and made legally available. There's a great need for people trained and how to guide psychedelic experiences, there's an awful lot of circling around of commercial interest. Looking at how they can capitalize on all this. So you know, a lot going on. I don't know how it will all
play out.
Just a sidebar. This is not intended to be a major branch in this conversation. But another little known fact to me at least is something I found this is on psychedelic review in 1977 he that's you authored scientific article on the use of hallucinogenic mushrooms in the Pacific Northwest, the United States his study of mushrooms inspired the name of a psilocybin species or I guess it's selasa be species discovered in 1995. I don't know how to pronounce this. A lot lately. I Wiley I. There we go. Selasa be wildly. I
How did this come about?
Well, my good friend Paul stamets hmm, who I've known for 40-some years named that species for me, you know. It. You cannot name a species for yourself and botany science but you can name it for someone else so he did that to honor me. I'm very honored. There have been attempts to knock the species off saying it's not a legitimate name, but it has most recently been confirmed as a separate
species.
Yes.
This baby a boring question for almost everybody listening, but I'm curious. Where does the naming convention come from? So I think of like this, it lavra, William Ci or William Street. Yeah where they have the double eye after the name of the person who discovered it, at the end, as the second component of the species name? Do you know where that naming convention comes from?
It goes back to Linnaeus. Who was the the really founder of modern taxonomy and there are international rules of
Nomenclature the names are often put in latinate forms so Williams who described that species becomes Williams EI and you know, in the botanical name. Okay, this is just to
satisfy my own Curiosity on that. I also found a mention of your experience of dysthymia, which I believe is mild to moderate depression. Correct. Yep. For much of your life emerging from
Only in my early 50s. This is you, how did you emerge from it in your early 50s?
You know, I wrote a book called spontaneous happiness, which is about emotional mental health. And it really goes into great detail about how to manage depression anxiety with non-medication means, knowing that, the medication is there, if you need it. But for depression, we have tremendous evidence of the value of physical activity, both as a preventive, and as a treatment for men, Des evidence for the use of
Of supplemental, omega-3 fatty acids, fish, oil or fish. There's an enormous variety of psychological methods. Things like cognitive therapy, which I think are extremely useful. There's a whole range of spiritual techniques. That should be looked at whether it's meditation, mindfulness, or even gratitude. Now, there's very interesting research showing that just the simple Act of keeping a little Journal of things to be grateful for and making a note of that.
As you go to bed, can improve mood for the lasting effects for a month. Another area of research that I find fascinating is that moods are contagious and you can track them through a population. Just like you can track movements of an infectious disease if you live within a half-mile of a happy person that, you know, your chances of being happy or increased by a certain percentage and the effect falls off with distance. I mean fastening. So you want to think about who you associate with, you know, if your
Prone to depression and you hang out with people who are depressed and you watch sad movies and read sad books and listen to sad music. Probably that's going to worsen your depression. I mean, simple stuff like that.
When did you go to Japan for the first
time in 1959? In the fall of 1959? When I was 17 years old?
How did you end up going to Japan when you were 17?
I was a student in an experimental school called The International School of America. This is the first year of its operation. It took a group of 22, students, and six faculty people around the world for eight and a half months. Living with a man living, with Native families to incredible various countries. And our first stop out of the US was Japan. And I can remember this distinctly flying on a propeller plane from Hawaii.
To Tokyo is an endless flight, but I must have taken a long out and arriving in Tokyo on a cold rainy. Morning on November first taken to meet our host families, they all had Sons, majoring in English at keio University, but it turned out, they couldn't speak any English. So, I was then driven a great distance to, or rawa city, which is outside of Tokyo lived with this middle-class family with almost no verbal.
Casein possible. But oddly I felt at home in that home and I love the food. I loved everything. I really felt. I had past lives in Japan. I had some deep connection with it.
How many times have you been
back since probably? 50. I mean many comes
now you've been to Okinawa quite a number of times and I've spent a little bit of time there. Okay. Now is considered a Blue Zone. They have a certain certain
portions of Okinawa population that contains I guess the let's just call the per capita highest percentage of centenarians. Yeah. Something along those lines. What are some of the lessons? You've taken away from that or observations that you've made? Well, it's such a different
world there, you know, they live in a Pacific Paradise with clean water and are they have unbelievably varied fascinating diet, very different from the Japanese diet.
They get physical activity, but one of the things that most struck me was the different attitude toward Aging in that society that old people are valued. As National Treasures efforts are made to include them in all aspects of social life. Very different from what you see here, you know, where we like to isolate old people with other old people and not have to deal with them. One of the stories, I collected over there, is that a common cause of
They fighting in traditional Okinawan Society is over, who is going to get to take care of the Aging parents that's a little little different from
what we see.
So I think that's extremely important. I took my mother there when she was, I think, 90 89, or 90 I was invited to give a talk at a conference in Okinawa. They like to trot out there centenarians at all events, are there was a bunch of them at the at an opening party and they would all come to my mother and say I'm 100%.
In one. How old are you? And she was very embarrassed about her, or her age and I think it was, it was interesting to watch her be in a culture where people were proud of being old.
So that's one of the lessons I learned.
I spent a bit of time I want to say four or five days in this Village called Oogie me and yes, I know cannot well. Yeah, so give me his sort of the creme de La Creme of that of the centenarian Olympics and every person I met who seemed to be saying they're 90s or 80s 90s or Beyond, I would ask what's the secret, and I got bagged a different answer from just better already but there were
You things that closely line up with what you're saying. One was old, people were active, I made up. People were out in the gardens. People were members of Choral societies we had a driver at the time for a couple of days and he would say, well I'm still young. I'm still a young whippersnapper basically and he was in his mid 80s and we drove by a number of places where he would point out and you'd say that's where the old people just sit inside watching television.
Asian. That's the end he's like that's when it's over and it really seemed to be as you mentioned, the inclusive nature of Senior Living in that area, and also the fact that they're very engaged with community and very, very active. I remember going to Market where they have the purple tarot which I'm sure. Yeah, you've seen. Yeah. And as you mentioned, the diet is very, I mean, it's becoming more Japan, a sized, but it's very different from what we typically think of
As Japanese food.
But I have to tell you Tim that in the over the period of time that I was going to Okinawa Okinawan, longevity has plummeted, especially young men and that's been attributed entirely to the increasing consumption of American fast food and I remember there was an article in New York Times about that and they quoted a middle-aged Okinawan man. Who said the first time he tasted a McDonald's hamburger. He thought he had died and gone to heaven. I mean, how could that be? I mean these people
have the most wonderful food available but there you go and just such a short space of time, you can see the effects of
that even opinion on fermented turmeric tea because I remember that was a ubiquitous I don't know if that's a tourist schtick or if it is something actually
to it. No, it's a very good thing. It was drunk, cold unsweetened and it was very pleasant in hot humid weather, which is common there. And I was so taken with this, that I developed a relationship with the company. That's making the fermented turmeric and began to
Awarded first, as I'm had a ready to drink product. This was again, probably way ahead of its time. But now through my matcha company macek, re at matcha.com, we sell, fermented turmeric the powder. It makes an instant drink. I think this is a first of all, delicious and refreshing. I like it, cold and unsweetened and turmeric. As you know, is the most powerful natural anti-inflammatory agent and many health benefits
documented, lots of health benefits including as I
And it there's some literature to suggest. I don't know if protection is warranted but some mitigating effect on neurodegenerative disease like Alzheimer's disease
and cancer prevention of cancer protection of liver function. It's got wide-ranging effects. It's good to include in the diet and fermented. Turmeric tea is an easy way to do
that. So why matcha? I've had much, I love matcha. Why decide to dedicate your energy too much? At least in
Heart. Let me say on the second day that I was in Japan. Back in, in November of nineteen fifty-nine my host mother took me next door to meet her neighbor, who was a tea ceremony practitioner, so the three of us sat around and this woman did a tea ceremony and presented me with a bowl of matcha. And I was completely taken by it first by the color. Also, by the chassis and the Whisk which I just thought, was marvelous and the taste of it, I fell in love with it. So
when I began going to Japan more regularly in the 1970s, every time I was there, I bring matcha back to the States and turn people on to it. Nobody's ever heard of it here and I just thought this was a great thing to make available before I knew anything about its health benefits. And I partnered with a matcha company in Japan and began, selling it through my website, again, like the beneficial plant. Association way ahead of its time, this is in the 1980s and hey, I just always thought this would be a great thing here. So when I
The chance when I saw matcha becoming popular here, it bothered me that so few people had access to good matcha because if if matcha is not prepared correctly and if it's not stored correctly, it oxidizes very quickly because it has such a huge surface area and it turns it loses that bright green color it loses the good flavor has a bitter taste and many people here. Have never tasted really good matcha. So I was determined to make that available and that's why I started this company and we got the Great
Caillou was getting the URL matcha.com people in Japan. Can't believe that we got that, but there it
is. Let's discuss the health benefits and let me also just ask a question for myself. I would imagine most people who listen to this and have had tea before they imagined tea, leaves or tea bag, put into water, you steep and then you remove the tea leaves and you're left with this colored water, and that is what you drink. But Masha is, if I'm understanding correctly, whole leaf,
So if it would there would also be an incredible importance or you could place incredible importance on quality or sourcing in so much as if you're consuming whole leaf tea that has been exposed to pesticides, you're going to be getting a much higher toxin load as well as that my thinking about that correctly. You
are and there is organic Macho available but not nearly as in great Supply as conventional matcha, but we've monitored matcha for pesticide levels and are assured that
This is not, not a problem, but the way much is grown, how its prepared. It's a long labor-intensive process and much as the only form of tea in, which the whole Leaf is consumed. As you say, I think we have the most research on the health benefits of green tea in general, and there are many forms of green tea that I like, but matcha has the highest level of antioxidants and of l-theanine, the calming amino acid that modifies, the effects of caffeine.
So, it's Unique in that regard, and I think there are health benefits of matcha that are distinctive among all forms of
tea. How does l-theanine modify the effects of caffeine?
I think it takes the jittery edge off of caffeine to. I think the effects of caffeine in tea and coffee are very different coffee produces. I think a jangling effect in many people, there's often a crash after a period of stimulation. Many coffee drinkers are physically.
We addicted to it and have a withdrawal syndrome. When they stop, you don't see anything like that with t. And I think some of that is because the l-theanine has a calming effect that changes the effect of caffeine. And as I say, Macho has more l-theanine in it than any other form of
T and Y is that is it that it's contained in some of the fibrous components of the leaf that are discarded when it's
prepared. No I think it has to do with the way. The tea is grown because what's unique about matcha is that about
Three weeks before harvest, the plants are heavily shaded with shade cloth that cuts out about 7080 percent of the sunlight. And in response to that the leaves grow bigger and thinner and produce higher amounts of antioxidants and l-theanine. So I think that's very unique. The same shading process is used to make a very high quality. Brewed green tea called Kyoko. Do that. Yeah, you're familiar with it's quite delicious. So that also has these high
levels
So it's that that's fascinating to me. So it almost seems like an Adaptive stress response by the plaintiff or
defects. All right, let's try to get it. Makes more Leaf surface in an effort to get more, you know, light exposure, and it develops more chlorophyll, which accounts for the bright
color of matcha.
So, I don't know how the Japanese discovered this shading process, but it is
unique. And for people who have not seen, even if you never have Macho, I certainly would suggest that you consider it. But even if you're never going to drink much,
Go find photographs of exceptionally good. Much of the color is unlike anything else you have ever seen in your life. It is like a phosphorescent, almost a phosphorescent green. And I'm biased because green is my favorite color, but how good it really? Is, it really is something something
special. Can I say that March akari? I think has some of the finest matcha available. We're very particular about our sourcing and
Sinners to your podcast, can get a generous discount if they use the code Tim.
All right. That's a listener exclusive folks out. There you go. Tim and that's easy to remember matcha.com. MATC H, a.com. And we can come back to this. But you mentioned your mom. And if my research is accurate, she lived until 94. Is that right? And he's 93 93. So that is still, it may not be a world record. No gamey. But that's still
Quite a long lifespan. All Things Considered, is that true on both sides of your family? Oh,
no, my father died at 80 had cardiovascular disease. So, my mother was much healthier and until her last year, she was quite active and I think in pretty pretty good shape. I traveled with her a lot. It was fun to take her to Japan and other places. One of the things, I think her part of her philosophy that may have contributed to this. She said, it's very
Important never to lose your sense of humor. She said, you always have to be able to see the ridiculous side of life.
Now is that something that she cultivated in you as well? Or did she just encourage it? Was there a form of play that helped to weave that into your being your kind of coating?
So to speak, we love to laugh together. I mean, I have a lot of pleasant memories of that, and I think the main thing, what that she did and my dad did to was to encourage
My curiosity, you know, I've always been a very curious, inquisitive person and I think they worried about me a lot in some of my experimentation and wanderings, but they always said that I should follow my passion and they encouraged me to be
curious. What did they think of? I don't know how much of a window they had into this but your fascination with not just botany and plants but also psychoactive but
those plants those plants. Yeah. So just I'll tell you one thing, I
remember this must have been when I was in after I was out of medical school but I remember going to visit them in their apartment and they were living in New Jersey. At that time. My mother never said anything to me but she leave newspaper clippings by my bed about marijuana causing brain damage
and I this isn't our first conversation and please tell me if I'm screwing this up, but I believe the very first time that you took mescaline your mom called and
Ed. I hope you're not doing something stupid like taking mescaline and you're like oh God
she had mom intuition then telepathy for
sure. I could see that putting a bit of English on your experience of mescaline.
I did. Once they visited me in Arizona, this must have been in the 1970s and I had coca leaves that I brought back from South America and we all to coca leaves together, so they were acted as if they were very is a very daring thing. They got
Quite silly. It was fun to
do. So, how did they feel my experience of Coca chewing or t? Is that it's pleasantly mild, but it is far milder to me than a strong cup of coffee. Let's just say, what was their experience? Like I
think they probably had minimal effect. I think it was more their, their expectations and than anything
pharmacological. How old are you now, Andy,
I turned 80 on June
1st. Happy belated birthday.
Thank
But I have to tell you, I have a very good friend, cardiologist who says his same age as me. He said that his mother always told him Joe, don't get old, you won't like it.
What how do you relate to getting older? I mean, you look great 480, certainly I mean I hope I hope I look as good I already lost. I lost the hair early so I passed that Rubicon. By
the way, the the meaning of philosophy. It's a Greek word is bold head. So
I did not know that. That's incredible. Okay, so selasa be widely eyes, pretty good. Anyway, cognitively. I don't feel any different. I mean, I really don't feel any different from the way I felt when I was in my 20s. But I really feel changes in my body especially musculoskeletal changes you know annoyances that I didn't have before. I think my sleep has changed but you know I think watching the body change and it's inevitable deterioration. I think that's an important thing to look
at
And do you have any plans for how you'll spend say, the next five years? Do you have certainly you have this Macho project, which I'm glad you're bringing to the world because I just selfishly want high-quality Macho love. My love matcha. But in addition to that, do you think about projects you want to do kind of longitudinally over a period of time?
I don't feel compelled to do anything. I don't have the drive that I did when I was younger. Like I don't feel like I'm
I want to write anything else. I've written everything I have to say, I want to see Integrative Medicine really get on a solid footing and become, no really mainstream, which it's poised to do. I feel very deprived of travel during these pandemic years and I want to make up for some of them going to Japan next month. And that'll be, I'm really looking forward to that. So I'd like to get some travel in while I
can. Yeah. Well, you know, our mutual friend, Kevin Rose, also japanophile and I will be
On. It would be fun to actually meet up at some point in Japan. I mean, I've certainly been quite a few times. I'm still in touch very close, touch with my host, mother who I lived with. When I was 15 years old, we're still still closed and that would just be a
blast. Well, I'm creating this place for you to stay and no record of Cogan so I expect you both to
come. Oh yeah, I can give you the green light the thumbs up on that again with
without any problem.
Well, Andy
is there anything else that you would like to mention today in this conversation or Explorer? People can find much akari on Instagram at macek? Rema tcha Ka RI the website is matcha.com, they can find you on Twitter Dr. While and dr. Wilde.com and we'll put all these in the show notes but yeah, I'd
also urge people to look at the website of the center for integrative medicine. Now, the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine, which it's hard for me to say,
Hundreds of Integrative Medicine, dot Arizona, DOT edu. And look at the range of our activities and educational programs, some of which are available to the general public and are very good
hollandia. It's always nice to see you a link to all these things in the show notes, anything that you would like to see researchers in the realm of psychedelic Science, Focus more on or consider focusing
on.
I am somewhat discouraged to see all the emphasis on mental, emotional health, because I think there's such tremendous potential for psychedelic experience and Physical Medicine for really changing the course of chronic disease for really affecting how people experience their bodies. You know, I've just seen so many dramatic effects of psychedelic experiences on people who have had chronic illness and I want to see more exploration of that.
It's for a tasting of some of that people can listen to the first conversation where we talk about your experience with cat allergy. Yeah. Which is also just one of those head scratchers that is worth digging into.
Well, there's a lot of stuff like that out there and we want to take it seriously and look how we can make use of
it. There's a book called The Fellowship of the river. I think I'm getting that right about a western trained physician, who ends up engaging very heavily.
With Ayahuasca specifically. And in that account talks about how certain things respond or don't respond or I should say rather up here to respond or don't respond more often than other conditions. Let's just say. And some that seem to respond well and this is not medical advice. I'm not encouraging people to go to the Amazon and drink Ayahuasca speak to your GP first, but are many of the autoimmune diseases.
Crohn's disease Etc. That'd be top of my list of
things to explore the use of psychedelics in. So do you think
that is then not necessarily a physical response to Ayahuasca specifically with its Harmony in and everything else in the vine or the DMT necessarily was something that could be observed with say Souls
Ivan? Yeah, I do I think it's hard to disentangle all that but I think that it's I don't think it's specific to those
chemicals. Yeah. Well it's
Brave New World. There's a lot of certainly a lot of research being done even more companies being formed, and I suppose it will be ultimately survival of the fittest and survival of the most interesting from a scientific perspective. So I'm cautiously optimistic. But you've been in this space for many, many decades now. Is there anything left for you to experience personally within the realm of psychedelics or do you feel like you've scratched that
Sufficiently.
Yeah you know my first book The Natural mind Alan Watts wrote a blurb for it because again player and yeah. And the last line of it was, you know, when you get the message, hang up the telephone. Yeah, and I feel that way. I think I've gotten the message about psychedelics, I don't feel the need to do further
experimentation. Well, you get the message. Hang up the phone. And let me just mention a few places where people can find you, I already did, but we'll link to the Center for
A great of medicine which is Integrative Medicine dot Arizona DOT edu. Is that right? And then certainly, you can just search Andrew Weil or doctor while and then the platform of choice and it'll pop right up and it can find you a doctor while Wei l.com and certainly can find the amounts of car at matcha.com. So anything else Andy that you'd like to add?
No that was a wide-ranging conversation which I have enjoyed
greatly now. Thank you for taking the time and E3 and to everybody listening.
Until next time be a little Kinder than is necessary. To your fellow humans fellow animals. Suppose we could throw plants in there as well, that's not get too ambitious and as always till next time, thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off and that is five bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday? That provides a little fun before the weekend between one and a half and two million people. Subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short.
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