In an extreme example, people go and die for their natural fun. Unless extreme examples, people go tailgate every week and football game in other less extreme examples. People will pay 10,000 dollars for watch. From fifty dollar, watch will do the same thing and I'm not here to tell you this is bad. This is fundamental to human nature is how we are identity. Matters, Community matters, emotional matters. And if these are the moments for we can take all of those feelings from and off chain World launching. Welcome to
Banquets where
We explore the Frontier internet money and internet Finance, this is how to get started, how to get better and how to front run the opportunity. This is Ryan, Sean Adams, and I'm here with David Hoffman and we're here to help you become more Bank Less guys, the most well-known pseudo, Anonymous brand in crypto is on the podcast today. Punk 6529. That is this person's Punk number not, his nation state, name is the idea of a crypto Punk. He says, on today's episode that nftl
Represent every single digital non fungible token that exists, and there's going to be a lot of those, a few benefits and takeaways from listening to this. Episode number one, he talks about the benefits of using an NF T. Backed pseudonym, instead of his state name. Number two, we talk about why the freedom to transact is an essential human Liberty, one that will lose without crypto. Number three, we talked about how the metaverse is just a visualization layer for n FTS. Number four, we talk about why
Lefties are more important than defy. This is according to punk, 6529. Of course, he says, NF teas are probably the most important thing, Krypto has produced thus far David in this episode he calls himself probably the most bullish, single individual in the world on ft's. What's your take on that? And your take on this episode is folks get into it? Yeah what does it mean to be the world's most bullish person on nft? So I think if I put myself into the shoes of punk, 65
29. He just means that the reason to Mint and nft the reasons will be so broad. So infinite that almost an infinite. Number of entities will eventually become minted and he'll walk you through the thought process. I think in this episode, Punk 6529 really takes his time to fully unpack a thought. And so there's really only four or five questions throughout this whole entire podcast. But pay attention to each one because they do layer upon each one. As they go, we first start talking about what does it mean to have a
digital identity Punk 6529. As a digital identity in the metaverse is one of the foremost, people exploring the worlds of online-only identities. And then we get into one of his first principles, tweet threads, that he put together the freedom to transact and how the ability to transact financially in the world is a statement of self-expression which leads into how n FTS can also help people Express themselves. So, pay attention as we walk through some of these subject matters because if you lose each one, you'll start to lose some of the benefits.
Of Larry each one on top of each other is what I have to say the listener. Yeah, I really like the way this guest thinks. You know, one of those first principles thinkers as well. And David I think we've got a lot to discuss during the debrief like particularly this idea of nft is being more bullish than maybe the rest of crypto. I mean he went as far as to say it's the reason crypto exists almost in a way and of course, premium subscribers. You can access that debrief show right now on the bank less premium feed. If you're listening to that, if you're not a premium subscriber,
Click the link in the show notes and up great and you can get access to that David. This episode is also coming out as an mft collectible. So on the day that this is release the Monday that it's released you've an opportunity to Mint this episode and collect it. So if Punk 6529 is bullish on ft's, maybe this episode as an NF T is also bullish question mark. I'm not sure if it's definitely fitting his thesis. I definitely proving it out. Yeah. We're minting it and seeing what happens. So far the community has been really excited by these and you can
That up. If you're interested later guys we're going to get right to the episode with Punk 6529. But before we do, we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible including our recommended exchange for 2023. Kraken, Kraken has been a leader in the crypto industry for the last 12 years dedicated to accelerating the global adoption of crypto. Kraken puts an emphasis on security transparency and client support, which is why over nine million clients have come to love Krakens products, whether you're a beginner or
Or a pro. The cracking ux is simple intuitive and frictionless making the kraken app. A great place for all to get involved and learn about crypto for those with experience. The redesign Kraken Pro app and web experience is completely customizable to your trading. Needs integrating key, trading features into one seamless. Interface Kraken has a 24/7 365 client support team that is globally. Recognized Kraken, support is available Wherever Whenever you need them by phone chat or email and for all of UNF tears out there the brand-new Kraken.
Of T. Beta platform gives you the best nft trading experience possible. Rarity rankings. No gasps fees and the ability to buy an mft straight with cash. Does your crypto exchange prioritize? Its customers the way that Kraken does. And if not sign up with cracking at cracking.com thankless, hey, bank has Nation. If you're listening to this, it's because you're on the free Bank. This RSS feed. Did you know that there is an ad-free version of Bank list that comes with the bank? This premium subscription, no ads, just straight to the content, but that's just one of many things that a premium
subscription gets you. There's also the token report, a monthly bullish, bearish neutral report on the hottest tokens of the month and the regular updates from the token report, go into the token Bible. Your first stop shop for every token worth investigating in crypto. Banquets premium also gets you a 30% discount to the permissionless conference, which means it basically just pays for itself. There's also the airdrop guide to make sure you don't miss A Drop in 2023, but really the best part about Banquets premium is hanging out with me Ryan and the rest of the bank was team in the
Inner Circle Discord only for premium members, want the alpha check out been the analyst Degen pit where you can ask him questions about the token report. Got a question, I've got my own Q&A room for any questions that you might have at bank Lis. We have huge things, planned for 2023, including a new website, with login with your theory Madras capabilities and were super excited to ship what we are calling thankless 2.0 soon TM. So if you want extra help exploring the frontier, subscribe to bank this premium. It's under 50 cents a day and provides a wealth of knowledge and support.
Port on your journey West. I'll see you in the Discord. The Phantom wallet is coming to etherium the number one, wallet on Solana is bringing its millions of users, and beloved ux2 etherium and polygons. If you haven't used Phantom before, you've been missing out, Phantom was one of the first wallets to Pioneer Solana's, taking inside the wallet. And we'll be offering similar staking features for theorem and polygons, but that's just taking Phantom, is also the best home for your n FTS. Phantom has a complete set of features to optimize your nft experience. Pin. Your favorites, hide your ugly.
Is burned, the spam and also manage your nft sale listings. From inside the wallet. Phantom is of course a multi chain wallet but it makes chain management easy. Displaying your transactions in a human readable format with automatic warnings for malicious transactions or phishing websites. Phantom has already saved over 20,000 users from getting scammed or hacked. So, get on the Phantom, waitlist and be one of the first to access the multi chain beta. There's a link in the show notes, or you can go to Phantom app. / wait, list to get access in late, February thankless Nation it.
Excited to introduce you to our next guest. This is a pseudo Anonymous guest goes by the Alias, Punk. 6529 on Twitter, he's a leader in the crypto space and he's heavily focused on the world. Of n of t. S the metaverse. He's also known for putting out some extremely Punchy and thoughtful Twitter threads. I think some of these threads reveal how he thinks about the crypto space. Particularly from a first principles perspective, honk 6529. It is a pleasure to have you on, Banquets, how you doing today.
All, I'm doing great and it's a pleasure to be here and I'm glad we were able to get the schedule them looking forward to
it. Yeah, I know we've been wanting to schedule this for a while ever since I started kind of reading more and more of your just Banger tweet threads about the space and we'll talk about a few of those as we get in. But I think the first question on my mind and maybe some listeners mind is a little bit about you. So, your pseudo Anonymous, of course, you have a voice distorter. In this interview, this conversation, that maybe listeners have noticed. What can you tell us about yourself about?
Who you are Punk and what you care about.
Well, sure, the following, I think professionally, I was historically and the finance industry and Consulting industry, but I took a shift quite some time ago into crypto and certain others.
So it's been a long time since I've
done those first two things. And I have spent a lot of time on
Initially Bitcoin, and then more broadly cryptocurrency since 2013 back. Then was when I first summer, 2013 is when I first really dug into Bitcoin. I had come across it in 2011 and didn't really pay any attention to. But in summer of 2013, I dug into it some more and I was convinced from then that the big idea here, wasn't
That we can now do wire transfers faster or cheaper or that you had Global money. Good settlement. All of these things are amazing things right there great. But that it was a very much better idea than that, that you had now for the first time, a second way you can store data, now we've had a database and now we had public auction and that this was not only a major breakthrough.
Two systems, a major breakthrough in computer science that would have all types of technical offshoots.
But ultimately, you know, it's an underappreciated fact that technology platforms, which their operators might be operating them mutually, you know, a database administrator a software, developer the head of a firm that has databases and software developers is almost certainly, just trying to run their business and just trying to, you know, compete in the marketplace and that keeps everyone very busy and it
It's hard, running any type of business but a world that digitizes has the internet and is structured on databases actually ends up centralizing and very oddly. You know what people would think of as backend technology choices that you know, nobody in the social political sociological field has fought about for one second actually end up reshaping The Contours of see
And this was clearly like them. I thought it was going to be a 30 40 year pathway before we actually saw the full potential of what we can do with decentralized logical distributor blockchains of public cryptocurrencies this whatever you call them. It's basically all the same thing and a horizontal technology like this takes time to get integrated. I think it was going to be a long haul but it was very important
current. And so August of 2013 is where there was a meaningful shift and things. I spent time on
I suppose for some time and some other things, but I have spent the non-trivial of my time since 2013 brought me on this topic.
65 290. You say a lot of words that always gets me really excited. Especially, when you say, re-architecting, the fabric of society and things like this. And I think this is definitely topic. I'd love to explore with you, but I first want to get into that conversation through you as an identity because the world of crypto is no stranger to pseudo Anonymous. People we have pseudo Anonymous people on crypto Twitter all the time.
But I think you've really taken your digital identity further than most people have. And you see this in the Tweet threads that you right, where you refer to yourself as 6529 and you have a whole brand around 6529, you have this voice modifier. So you still are a very public identity. The identity is there, and it's very digital because of the nature of How It's manifested on the internet and it's also extremely Anonymous. As in like you do it.
Very good job kind of covering up your tracks. You use a voice modifier, you don't slip up and so I kind of want to explore just the why behind the digital identity aspects? Like why lean so heavily into this world of digital identities and perhaps unpack, why crypto has their tools behind crypto that has enabled you to actually have a digital identity, huh?
I'm gonna go forward I'm going to go backwards on this so the reason I started doing this turned out to be only
One of the reasons that I actually ended up continuing doing it and then I actually think it's not that crazy in historical context, but let's start with the basics. I started getting very intrigued by nft, he's the second time around and kind of late 2020. I had, of course, look then of to use in 2017 and I think like, most people with my profile was like, okay, that's cool. Someone made like a cute game for kids or whatever it stripped. Oh, kitties fine. I mean this
Isn't the important stuff in great, I'm glad people are experimenting on a blockchain and that's great. Who cares? And in like 20, 20 I started thinking well, you know, I've missed something here. This is a much bigger idea. And I started getting involved and I bought a Nifty and then I want another n of T. And then I bought a lot of entities. And I had seen folks, like gee money and punt for 156 at said home user. My pfp is a
I'll picture. That's now that that kind of makes sense, I mean, if we're going to go to some type of hybrid digital space, it makes sense of people are going to have profile pictures or avatars later when were in 3D and it also makes sense that they're not. All of these are going to be your LinkedIn photo with your nice shoot on her. Something right thing. Why would they have to be that
And it makes sense for they could be something you own. I like the fundamental idea behind that coin is you can own something that you actually own a probably owned it and versus just uploading a JPEG to put her hands. You can do that, right? You can be sued Anonymous on Twitter and not own a Nifty. Right missed. Upload any random, picture, the wall. There's something to the show. Yeah, this is my picture, but I actually own this picture and provably on.
In this picture. Let's call this is this seems like an emerging thing that people are doing. Let's try and I have this General approach to technology that when you're not sure. You should just try it most errors on the technology side. Like most people, that start missing changes in technology, is because they try and read about it and figure out by reading about it, if it makes sense. And my experience,
That just doesn't work. Like you can't read about in summer, 2013 about the coins, Ivo was the coin, Mech sensor have to download a note and send someone a Bitcoin may be another side of the world and then you doing his head. Oh wow, that was amazing. I can't believe that just happened and you can't read about. Oh look people you know, crypto Bros. Have lost their minds again and they're spending a lot of money on cartoon.
Teams and it's probably some type of scam. I mean, all the stuff, right? That's you. Read about it. That's what your takeaways about. Okay. People use pfp avatars. Let's use a PF gravatar and see what it feels like. All right, so it started like that. Now, pretty shortly thereafter. I realized another thing which I sort of knew but I didn't really know it until I started treating a 65 tonight.
That like you I think like anyone have a variety of interests of more or less differentiated here is where I like to have dinner and here's my favorite pizza or whatever. Right. And at a first approximation, nobody cares, one. Who's threatening my family cares. My friends care. I don't think you would have invited me on Banquets, to tell you where, my favorite pizza is because I don't think my views.
Or particularly differentiated on that topic. All right? And
the flip side, right? Is it Dominoes Punk? Is that what
drug? And I have an account and a Twitter account on whether I play existing identity and the flip side is also true. If all of a sudden I started spamming everyone there. 47 times a day with NF t-posts, you know,
Questions might be raised about my mental stability or what happened to her, I'd like. And so I need to talk up. I'm gonna come here and talk about nfc's
And I'm going to continue the rest of my life, I'll go on Facebook and like like my friends post because they got married or something right. Great. And that sounds very simple and it sounds very obvious but it turns out that it's a very big deal. I feel I check in and check out of two different ecosystems. The ecosystem, one is my ecosystem before July 20 21 when I started putting a 65.
It includes my prince to professional life. My friends, my family, you know, where I Pizza, Etc, Tucker Tucker. The trouble hasn't changed, and it's fine, and it's real, and I'll variety of relationships. And they're all real important and in nft Twitter and Discord. There's now a completely other ecosystem and community of people, some of whom are eponymous, some of whom ours, shh,
It on us, some of whom are synonymous, and I happen to know who they are now because we've agreed to meet or what have you, some of whom I work with formerly, some of whom I work with informally, some of the, like I kind of feel sometimes, are you I get on Twitter and supplying to Cheers, but on the, a massive scale. There's a, the same 1000 characters and I know he's gonna agree with me and I was going to yell at me and even though it's all of you were yelling at me, it's comforting. I like it's a
Coherent world. And one of the world's is even in a world of Zoom is still a little bit more physically based and the nft Twitter world is not at all physically based on him. The one thing that is for sure the case I never have any idea or anyone lives or were they might be from time to time, right?
The one turns out it doesn't matter at all like the big breakthrough but the first of all, I got. That was fun. Let's try. But the big breakthrough is I have noticed no difference. If anything a positive difference in how? Well I can formally or informally collaborate with a bunch of people around the world where in most cases are in half the cases.
All I know about them is their cartoon character, right there have jpeg. I don't know where the overtone uh, and it doesn't matter because there were three players, they are a coherent personality.
And I can model them just like I model people in a physical work environment and I can't Rattle and that was all surprising to us that. I then I wouldn't say expect that at first, then I think there is, and this is a bit of a crypto bug. Not a feature. If, you know, I spent quite a bit of time to give out how this can be fixed by things actually, fixable it was probably an aspect. Now that security-related
I don't have a lot of entities, both directly or through the fun someone could nft is are different because they're on shame, right? Maybe I do. Remember, I don't have a lot of fear, you'd never know, it could be quite beige or Finance or somewhere on change. You'd never know when I'm running around saying, oh look, I want this really expensive credenza, isn't it? Beautiful?
Will everyone knows I only wear it when Spencer right and many other expensive and of teas are somehow related with other, please was enough to use and there's probably something around is that super great from a security perspective? If also people can like, you know, walk up to my front door, probably not. Now it's interesting because if they walk out my front doors, I got the keys here but how do you provably prove that to someone? So they don't hit you over the head? All right, that's
It's an interesting security for and I think it's
solvable, but
the way to solve it isn't you somehow they're not hide that you own. A Nifty zoning. And if teams have a huge identity combo, they're fun. But you have to be able to credibly say like look, you can beat me over the head but it does not gonna matter like there's somewhere else, right? And and this is something that's an infrastructure topic. It will be solved by multi cigs, you know, aren't he's right about since we didn't win but like then sure.
Maltese eggs with known signers. So you can say, look, it's this guy or it's this even bank doesn't matter if they're only one, signatory, doesn't matter, right? So you can actually sort of help. I'm sure there's a lot of stuff. There's protected by cryptography and you can't get it out of my bedroom, right? Like so. And then this is the going forward. The interesting thing is, you look back
I remember being on bulletin boards, 20 years ago, 15 years ago and discussing different things and I realized I didn't know the state ID of any of those people, right. I just had handles sure. They didn't also have a cartoon picture but their handles warrant John Smith, social security. Number 93, five to seven four, three, four, three. It was like, you know, Doom breaker 11.
And that works fine, right? And this works fine. And I'm often asked by sometimes, if I'm speaking to a conventional audience, the starting what is like? Oh my God, this is so weird. This person's coming here and when I tell them is you know what, it's not weird at all, you're all going to do it. It's all going to happen in the next three or five, or 10 or 15 years, your will also do this because there is
People are multifaceted and people present differently online or ready, right? Like what you say on LinkedIn and how you present on LinkedIn and I presented Twitter and high percent on Instagram and I was in a Facebook probably different and this is a natural Next Step there and in a more, genuine authentic and provable renter without the nft. You don't know if 6529 is this account, right? Like the nft
There's only one Punk 65 tonight. The jpeg there could be a limited, right? You can still happen JPEG but you can't someone hacked. The end of T so far, pretty long answer from what you expected. But I think I was
you, that's good. I mean, this is very helpful. I am think you gave sort of the case for why people should experiment with digital identity handles. And particularly out of T, is this one part separation of brand is another part kind of a an experiment. It's another part you opsec protecting
Security. And it's another part. Just like if you actually want to understand this crypto space, you actually have to use it. You know. I haven't said this in a while but we used to say David at a bank list like don't trust anybody's opinion on crypto who hasn't used Yuna swap, right. It's just because like I mean if you're not actually using the stuff and immersed in technology, how the hell do you know anything about it? You don't know what you're investing and you don't know what you're talking about and so I also see what you're doing with see.
8:55 as kind of a testing of NF t. S identity online we want to get back to kind of go to the nft topic and but before we do you said something which I found interesting that the purpose of spitting up this Twitter account 6529. And going Anonymous was really so that you could talk to nfc's and you don't have to like I don't know, annoy your friends social network or family on Instagram or Facebook with these sorts of tweets as you're talking about. And if T is though you're also unlocking. I think something deeper
Remember a thread from earlier last year, that really impacted me, something that you put out there and the topic was about freedom to transact and you start the Tweet thread. This way, I don't know if you recall this from February 17th of 2022. There are no other constitutional rights in substance without freedom to transact. No other constitutional rights and substance without freedom to transact. And you go on. You describe the other constitutional
Items that we have such as rights to speech. Assembly religion. That people are innocent until proven guilty that the state cannot punish people without due process. Most western Liberal. Liberal democracies have this embedded in some form of a constitution. You say, all of that is meaningless unless we have the freedom to transact. You go on further in your thread and sort of emphasize, how crypto helps give individuals the freedom to transact and how important
That this Freedom actually is you can't even have freedom of speech without freedom to transact. I want to get back to kind of the why you're in crypto Punk. Like why are you spending so much time on ft's? Because I think somebody might look at your account some days and just be like well you know Punk likes getting wealthy, you know, and there's massive investment opportunities in crypto and if T's are super fast growing and you know, that's why he's in the space, I'm sure there's an element of Truth there. But I also get the sense that you care deeply.
About some of the values. Enshrined in crypto and being here, in the early days that must have been why you started to enter in, at least in no small part. Sure it was a database that was new but also it was a freedom giving database. Can you talk about the values underlying crypto and in particular, this idea that unless individuals on the internet, have the freedom to transact, they actually don't have any other rights.
Okay, that was about 17 questions. So let's
It was treatin to transact because that's a general crypto point. Then we'll talk about in the fifties, why we're here, but freedom to transact point is the same point. That I said at the beginning, it's the 2013 point and what is happening is a progressive erosion of Freedom. That is happening, very quietly, very much in the background without anyone particularly
Thinking about it and it is being driven, it's the technological equivalent of the medium is the message. And the medium, in this case is large-scale Big Data companies that have Network effects, right? And then secondarily in some countries governments and I'd like to illustrate this with a trivial example example, that I don't think I've heard anyone other than me ever use.
So that you don't get into very high mind, the top of just, electrical example, I used to live in New York.
And New York has your caps and you held them off the street and you held them off the street and the yellow taxi stops and you jump. And they take your wherever they're taking you give them 20 bucks and you get out. All right and the only way someone can stop you from doing that is by arresting you. I like you can be prevented. There's no particular way that any actor including State can say, hey Ryan, you're not allowed to use a taxi
Anymore, I'll just not a thing. I've been have to come. You have to be deprived of your free motion to be deprived of that. You have to be because we have strong constitutional protections, you have to be charging. A specific crime has to be probable cause and you get a lawyer in a jury of your peers. And all of this thing's right now, I think the market share now boober and lift in New York and now the taxi cabs have their own app. I think it's like 50% and it's growing and someday it's going to
All of them right back.
Someday, everything is going to be app intermediate. Now, what is needed for Uber to say? I don't want Ryan using my service anymore. Absolutely nothing. It's a private service. You have zero rights whatsoever to be on Ubers servers to hail taxis using Uber system. I mean, arguably copyright, that's private property, so property but your property. And so if you violate their terms of
Of service. But honestly, if the CEO of liberal wakes up and says, I don't like the look of that guy's face, you're off the platform. No due process. Know what have you? Because something that was decentralized in the physical world, hailing a taxi, and the physical world is a decentralized exercise. There's taxes walking around and people walking around and cash at that's how New York worked in all periods. Until maybe, I don't know 5,
Eight years ago, and it's falling to centralize. It is now becoming centralized or decentralized trouble and you might be blocked for purely. Private reasons or as we have seen with Toyota, which is not the least, surprising thing I've ever heard, you know, the government might lean on private choke point and maybe within their Constitutional Powers, but we know the man, I don't know. We have some interesting information about Ryan. We don't let him get into all these
Taxis. Right into these rumors
he does work at bank less after all kind of sketchy.
That's what who works a bank with her forehead sketch. And what's happening is that is happening everywhere.
Google has centralized, meteorite, Facebook has centralized interpersonal, communication, Twitter has centralized another version of that eBay as centralized under the yard sale plus, and YouTube is a huge percentage Now video communication. And so, you take all these things that were decentralized and they become centralized. That's one bucket.
Second bucket that has gone along with this and it's one of these things that there's nothing wrong with it per se, it's just when you put it all together, you end up with a weird outcome. His post 9/11, the US has pulled an incredible amount of effort into a ml K YC. And this is one of those things that I am actually not like some weird energy storing. I do not believe that AML and kyc in principle is inappropriate,
Right? But we have over 20 year period. That's very visible to me because I have I take interest in the inner Zone Financial systems. We have gone from a point where cash was viewed neutrally to cash is now viewed with suspicion. There is no chance cash could have gotten launched today if it didn't already exist, right? Let's Akash to not exist. And then someone said, yeah, I'm not everyone's going to come up with this really cool thing. It's a piece of
Paper. There's no kyc. There's no am how you can take it with you. There's no record of what you're doing. If you don't have to, like, kyc your counterparty, you don't have to send report you because user would never get launched. All right? And it is progressively being pulled out of the system or some European countries that now you know cash transactions over to three thousand dollars are illegal. Now they have a reporting requirement, there's two legal to get to the money and so the net effect is Ben
a shaped by the technology stack. The reason this is happening now, and not in 1975, it was impossible in 1975 to have a global cell phone intermediated, smart app, intermediate attacks church and so taxes because you couldn't do the global part because the global part needed, first of all the internet and then, you know, high performance, Computing of some type right? Without that you couldn't
Do it and so taxes would be centralized. Now, taxes aren't just centralized New York are centralized around the world like you get banned from Uber. You're banned from Ataxia, many, many cities and even sex was no I'm not coming at pan flute, rival 4.7 writing whatever, why, why does this matter has only 4 weirdos of annoying people? That's not the point. All right, the point is this trend is showing no signs of stopping.
it is not dramatically changing from day to day, but every day, the last 20 years is going in One Direction only
and what happens at the end, the end state of us has, you will have X firms. Where X is not a number, like 13,000 522, but a number 20, or 50, or maybe 200 and why government services, which is a number less than 10 which might include CBD seas. And all of those very large databases will intermediate everything.
And once that choke point exists, once that Honeypot exists, there is a danger, it will be exploited.
I spent quite a bit of time. I'm in Europe right now. The fundament of time talking to the merger of the mental institutions in Europe,
And the logic is a column. Once we have cdc's is gonna be great, we're gonna end my laundry and we're going to end crime and tax evasion. And in fact, we're going to end all types of social ills cuz will encourage, you know, eating vegetarian food and eating less meat all the stuff, right? And as well, intention for most people.
It's just no thinking about the second order effects and the second order effects is that. Well, before we end all crime and enter a golden age of Happiness, someone some very ambitious politician,
Will gain control of the Central Banking known for their country. And when it's election time, their opponents won't be able to buy a tomato because you're going to have this unreviewable system that can instantly programmatically statistically shut down, large numbers of people. And if you can shut down, transactions, you shut down everything else. All right, I had been saying this before the episodes in cat,
In fact, not saying this example, it is hard, say hungry. You like oh yeah, I could maybe sort of Imagine hungry. I might happen, hungrier, turkey, Russia or one of those places. You know, what happened in the United States? Of course, whatever. And you know, for the purposes of this example, the Canadian example is perfect because Canada is very obviously, not a dictatorship. Like I don't think Justin Trudeau's some evil leader, eiling's, do I think the trucker's, I suspect my political views, ER,
Probably borderline the opposite of the trucker's, right? I suspect I would dislike almost all the trucker's will find them extremely annoying right now. That's the important part. All right? The important part is like, you know, a leader who is a fairly liberal and the Canadians are all expertise, right? Get some tropical thinks about it for a little bit. You are not the first, and you know what, I'm just gonna like, cut off their Banking and the banking of everyone around them.
Don't have to go home and that's what happened. Madam, and the problem isn't. Any have a lot of liberal friends are out of the cooker? I understand that that's not you've got to think I'm fresh principle because like tomorrow this could be, I don't know. Black lives matters protesting and Donald Trump's back in, office is always a great idea. Just intro bank account.
I mean you're not going to like it as much, right? Like this is who won't seem as good as idea of them. And the thing is all of the stuff is running outside of due process, right. The whole AML complex is the AML complex. Did it start with good intentions? Yeah I think so. I think they're kind of prevent terrorist - I think so but then it grows and grows and grows are getting prophecy and you know it runs outside and if some banks as you know you can
Of a bank of culture. I've restored you you're too sketchy. Oh, during a podcast called Bangles The Sounds further problematic. You can no longer bank at, you know, first, Third Bank of Idaho, whatever. Right. Well you can't go to court and get romantic out back.
All right, this is gone. And in this infrastructure that is getting set up. Bit by bit, man, it's getting set up, not because Business Leaders of America are evil, that's always happening. It is an artifact of the technology that is available to us and that technology the internet leads to network effects. Everyone knows is right. All these like oh I want to buy the business of that investment has that were contractions are all going in very rich.
Right? Because the distribution, the fact that you have zero cost Distribution on the internet means that, if you're slightly better, you win all the business, right? Amazon wins everyone's business. And so, you'll end up instead of having two thousand bookstores, you have one, right? I'm simplifying. But it's at, right? And so you have these Network effects and those Network effects of a digital economy become checkpoints. And so exactly in the opposite way,
If crypto survives all Crypt hazardous, what?
The crypto survives its own network effects. Its own technology architecture its own way. It shapes its social environment will be a huge Capital items because the way you know, there is no CEO of Bitcoin right there is no CEO of ethereum. I've counseled close right? But he's not really the CEO, right? Nobody can prevent you. He cannot decide. Oh,
Oh, 6529 can't use a serum for this purpose. It's not within Mark corporate strategy, right? Is not like the CEO of Google. And so the fundamental permission wasn't of architecture will lead over time to significant different. And in fact, the opposite of what I'm worried about social structures around them and that's very very and doesn't believed before and if she's all right the freedom to transact stuff was a pre nft Theory
It does not involve in universities and I think it's more important to gums
as to way. That's why this show is called thankless, right? No. Intermediaries snowing between you and kind of the money system. Anybody can open a Bitcoin address and eat the dress anywhere in the world. All they need is an internet connection. I mean, that's powerful social technology and I think, I guess the point you're making is that all of this is happening in the background and it's not necessarily a kind of nefarious.
Reyes Conspiracy set of actors causing it. It's just the network effect of the internet and digitization and if we're not careful if we don't establish decentralized protocols and embed that in our internet protocols and kind of our internet Constitution. Then we may inadvertently lead to a world that is incredibly centralized and Incredibly fragile. In fact that's the world that we are moving towards and I am surprised like you 6529 that more people.
Don't think in first principles, don't think as the, you know, founding fathers the framers of the Constitution originally thought about balance of powers and what we should include in the Bill of Rights and these sorts of things, and they just seemed to be thinking about the first order consequences and nothing else. Downstream I feel like we've lost that but I feel like cryptos preserved it and indeed, it may be the case that I think it probably is going to be the case that there will only be two types of money in the world free money in crypto and then controlled.
Money. Everything that comes out of the nation state but let's switch gears a little bit towards an ftes because you're right. I think I embedded about 17 questions. My earlier question we talked about the freedom to transact and how that underscores all of the values that interest you in crypto. But there's more to the story here. What about NF T's? Do you see? Is there a link here, continue the story. If you
will know, I actually think an excuse and this is probably the most controversial thing I believe and it's sure
The most controversial thing I believe among long time crypto people I think kind of tease are our best shot or if not our best shot, an equally good shot as everything else combined at achieving this to centralization. That's why I started 65 tonight and find out what the thesis of North. I like why 65 friends doing, what Stripes man's do. Can I ask you first though? I just want to push back
because people are hearing that at the beginning of 2023 and I think 2022 and FTS have
left that year with kind of a stain at least in the mind space of what I would call Mainstream. So if you go to your friends, 6529 that aren't on crypto Twitter, the don't even know. 6529 is they just know you as you whoever you are in the real world, you ask them about NF to use. My guess is they're going to have a negative response to just even the term and FTS scams frauds, pump and dumps all these sorts of things. Now, here you are the beginning of 2023 and you're saying that this is
Mental that this is extraordinary technology that this is good for Humanity. Your viewpoint on. This hasn't changed or been shaped it all by 2022. No
person. But let's start with, I have been broadly speaking and in Fairly public ways promoting these principles since summer, 2013, do you know how many times I've been told Krypto is a scam? Do you know how many times have been told? Crypto is all washed training, its money, laundering. It's a pump and dump.
As cerium is a scammer. It's a pre-, a blah, blah blah blah blah. I mean my view of my average friends capability to think sensibly about ethereum is zero.
I value my average non crypto views views on ft's about as much as I value it on, if they re mm, I just literally absolutely nothing there completely closed. So the fact that they read that, we're money, laundering monkeys were whatever they think we're doing is no different than in 2013 when they thought. But for some strange reason, 2013 6 529 had lost his mind and was super excited about buying a tulip.
Old bubble that only heroin dealers care about and since I'm not, you know, like a heroin user anything like that, they basically thought I had lost my mind or had been like caught up in some multi-level marketing scheme or some Ponzi. So, the idea that that has any impact on me in 2023 is 0, this is the classic argument against crypto. The thing that I find funnier is a lot of people who
believed in Bitcoin, couldn't get there to believe in a serum and a lot of people believe in a serum, can't get there to believe in and of teas. I am not surprised that my area friend who has used, none of these Technologies things that have teaser scam. What cracks me up is that people who use etherium, or maybe defy, and don't use enough tease sometimes. Try to convince me. That entities are a scam. I'm like, you look yourself in the mirror. Have you actually like are you
Do you have any slightest self awareness of what industry you're in? Do you have the slightest self-awareness that? Like literally every single person says, I said the exact same thing about every stage of crypto development from the time. They've heard of the coin, it's all a scam, a bubble of pump and dump, it's over, it's done, it's dead. Why would anyone touch that stuff if they cared about their reputation over again?
I am a hardened veteran of being held up by live. Like, people might have read something in. I don't know the new Republic and don't like any of T's now and who cares, this means nothing. So let's talk about the
wireless, see that? Let's see that it does interest me that people in cryptos tend to get off the train in different station, right? Some people get off on bitcoin, some people on defy summer, still riding the train. You know, I think for me and many Bank, Less listeners, we sort of embraced.
All of it so far, Yuna swab is the largest on chain Marketplace for self custody digital assets. You know swap is of course a decentralized exchange but you know this because you've been listening to bank lists. But did you know that the unit swap web app has a shiny new Fiat on-ramp. Now you can go directly from Fiat in your bank to tokens in defy inside of Eunice. Wha not only that, but polygons are Bertram and optimism layer. Tubes are supported right out of the gate, but that's just defy you to swap his also.
And nft aggregator, letting you find more listings for the best prices across the nft world. With Yuna swap, you can sweep floors on multiple and ftes and, you know, stops Universal router will optimize your gas fees for you. You know, swap is making it as easy as possible to go from bank account to Bank Less assets across a theory and we couldn't be more thankful for having them as a sponsor. So go to app dot unit, swap dot-org today to buy sell or swap tokens. And N FTS arbitrament one is Pioneer.
In the world of secure, etherium scalability and is continuing to accelerate the web three landscape, hundreds of projects, have already deployed on Arbitron one producing flourishing defy and nft ecosystems with a recent addition of arbitrary, Nova gaming and social daps like Reddit are also now calling Arbitron home. Both are Bertram one and Nova, leverage, the security and decentralization of ethereum and provide a builder experience. That's intuitive familiar and fully evm. Compatible on Arbitron both Builders and users.
Appearance faster transaction speeds with significantly, lower gas fees, with our becomes recent migration to Arbonne Nitro. It's also now 10 times faster than before visit our Bertram dot IO, where you can join the community dive into the developer Doc's, Bridge your assets and start building your first app with Arbitron experienced web three development. The way it was meant to be secure fast cheap and friction-free. How many total airdrops have you gotten this last bull market had a ton of them? Did you get them all? Maybe you missed one. So, here's what you should do. Go to earn a thigh and plug in your theory.
Um, wallet and earn. If I will tell you if you have any unclaimed airdrops that you can get and also does po apps and minta, Belen FTS any kind of money that your wallet can claim earn if I will tell you about it and you should probably do it now because some airdrops expire and if you sign up for on the Fly they'll email you anytime. One of your wallets has a new airdrop for it to make sure that you never lose an airdrop ever. Again you can also upgrade to earn by premium to unlock access to air drops that are beyond the basics and are able to set reminders for more wallets and for just under twenty, one dollars a month, it probably pays for itself.
Just one airdrop. So plug in your wallet, Saturn a Phi and see what you get. That's EA R, ni .f I, and make sure you never lose another airdrop. But there might be a future stop on the train that we get off and are not able to proceed, but give us the case. So
fond of T's was a huge blocking point for a lot of people. I know who were very sophisticated about crypto. I mean, people who were mining Bitcoin 2012 and like have a portfolio of
50 fungible tokens and know like obscure side, chains of whatever like super deep. Technically hope delivers Shannon of teaser, like, and I understand it sounds like going to have something like, okay, whatever, that's cute but like, who cares? Like why? Why, and it's just a JPEG. I'm not into art. Oh, why would I want this kid stuff, right? Like know, this is an important. What's important is automated market makers, actually important. That's the important stuff. All right.
And I actually think in practice it's going to be the opposite. Explain it explain why. So many instances, a multi-part theory and you kind of have to like take the parts together for it to make sense. The first part I have spent an awful lot of time on boring people to tripped over the last second and awful and the whole period. I knew the following I was in the pre product Market fit era of a technology. Why? Because you're just talking about the technology.
After a proof of stake and Bitcoin is proof of work. Solana doesn't want transactions per second but it's more centralized. You know who cares about this? Nobody this is literally like saying imagining people are going to say, look at this amazing your application it's called Instagram. Did you know that they're using python on the backend? Literally not a single person was adopted Instagram because it uses python Instagram doesn't
spy van. I've checked cares. You don't get to a consumer Scale app by telling people about your technology stack, right? And all of crypto pre and if T's is literally just harassing regular human beings with your technology stack now, I like learning about proof of stake and proof of work and how mining works whatever but I'm a computer nerd, right? Like that's different. No normal, human being cares about the stuff. They
Super second start talking about. It's like those ads you see on the airport's of like should use an Oracle database or IBM, database, Solutions faster, and those are really just targeted to the ctOS, right? And see if no one else cares. So when you buy a crypto book to stick with the exam, right? Everyone knows it's settled on the ethereum blockchain, right? Everyone knows that aetherium, but I bought my pain. A proof of work and now use proof of steak, but it's not why you're buying it. I didn't buy the
The one with the cool hoodie because of some technical. Hello, but he's real cool, right? Like what Jackal? Oh, not these cool, blue glasses. I like that color and everyone else that I got into this with
Is actually talking for the first time, one layer up, the Technologies, in the background doing something, you know, terms of all the things are Gods to give you confidence that you actually own that token. But the whole discussion amenity space is at the quote-unquote application layer and I have had people who I've known for a long time.
So no interest in learning. How pancakes won't works? And why should they be like, oh yeah, by that one. For me. It's cool. I'd like to them. I like that one, right? And I've had very sophisticated friends with lots of money and not enough time. Nonetheless like discuss with me which the dens or Punk or whatever to my rights application layer. And this is a truism in technology when
When you start talking about the application of the technology you are at the beginning of the consumerization. So that's 1A 1B. Unlike every previous form of crypto acids, large organizations, have an incentive to get involved in that empty space Again, by example, Alton and of tml, I see something undercover. I was invited to the doctrine of an aquarium fall of 21. The only thing that matters in that sentences. That don't you?
Bottle wasn't a crypto conference. Haven't won a trip to conferences. I've never seen bullshit about it. A triple conference, despite what they come to, another important quality daughter through, what would they do in a Bitcoin conference? What would they tell Adam that weld it all? Don't, you know, man, I assume talking about our also doesn't go to host parties at Cisco network administrator conferences, even though they probably use rather somewhere in the reasons, but because n FTS are generic carriers for intangible assets and Ultra.
Amanda owns an extremely viable intangible asset, their brand reputation customer base sense of style, they can transport some of that latent, intangible value into a more tangible token and earn money from it and so they did and they will and it is why you see artifact and Nike and Adidas and over the next two or three years, you'll see a lot of people in the lifestyle fashion areas. Start on board.
Enough to use. And from there, we'll go to every other area that has large groups of customers sports teams and it's already happened, right? But will happen, more religious groups University, alumni association's, right? Donate to the Ohio State University. You don't just get an email receipt, you get this Buckeye, super Buckeye, gold-tipped thing to put in your wallet to show that you're the ultra Buckeye fan right here. Gonna say like these
nations aren't very serious. I am here to worship Lord Satoshi in vitalik on him, very complicated things, but like, consumers, do not adopt. Very complicated things. If you want. Widespread adoption widespread adoption of crypto. Looks like this, it does not look like something that requires a PhD in computer science for work, right? And so bucket one, I think there's a pathway contingent on, we don't end up with an equation that makes crypto in general unusual.
Well this place is going to come into play, some January 1st 2024, arguably makes crypto unusual, United States, right? If you do a transaction more than 10,000, it is a felony. If you don't report if you do not report your counterparties kyc information within 10 days, it's
absurd. What specific legislation while we're on this? Just pointed
detailed. Pass them for trouble last
year. Oh, I know what you're talking about.
It's the transposition of the cash requirement transaction to crypto.
But it is written extraordinarily aggressively, right? And I don't see how you could use actually a defy exchange of that comes into all right but you don't know what the counterparties.
Yes, ma'am. I understand from kind of our crypto lobbyists and the people fighting DC is that there's still hope that this gets stripped out of kind of like finalized versions of this,
but no, but okay, but this is like we've lost and we're hoping it gets for delegates, in a little of action, it becomes law on 11 2024 and it's a little bit more.
More survivable in. And if T is because what will happen is, I don't know opencl kyc or something. So you can sell enough to use that are more than 10 eith, right? It's short and do the reporting for you because like, they don't get important for you ever gonna go to jail for having this report. The counterparty intent dangerous. A felony is a very very strict
rule, right? The can't send everyone to jail, can they
just know that they don't need to survive. I just need people to pull back, right?
People don't like committing felonies right saying like oh, you're committing felonies is bad for adoption. If you buy your, you know whatever, nice generative Art Online, you have committed. A felony is heard about from option for, right, but it also means like when you're on the other side of an exchange where you don't know at all, what kind of party is and you have more sense of the counterparty has a 10 ft. Then you doing it in. There are decentralized exchange rate to sometimes change if this continues are finished.
And they will have to become completely see defy KY C double bond to be compliant. Anyone. So contingent on Krypton is not become unusual. I believe, there are gigantic consumer apps for and if T is that do not exist for fungible coach, it is not a surprise, and it is not some type of, you know, and then after 10 years,
Tell me Pro crypto gentlemen which large organizations are using Bitcoin and ethereum in their day-to-day operations with large numbers of people. I will tell you which none and if T's are going to get used a from the reasons engine, but also because they're more expressive, you could, I'll give you an example. You can represent many of you told me, stupid example. I'm not saying that's a good idea. I'm just saying it's an idea, you can do then if to use
But you cannot do with a theory, you could have an NF T. That is your employer ID that it says, David has these access rights into the right there in the metadata and Ryan's other access rights and it links fear access card. If you have an empty door, opens the door and the salt, you can go to your office, your office. You can swipe at the cafeteria. I'm not saying this is a good idea. This afternoon a dumb idea, but this very simple but my idea you can't do this here. You can't do with Bitcoin, right? You have to go back.
To all of these like colored coin early 2324 stuff that's clunky and doesn't really work and you know the community why you do it on bitcoin anymore. Anyway, right there kind of like holy were just in transactions. Okay fine. So nft is are like infinitely expressive and so you can do you know there's this open discussion of what I have enough to gaming. There is no open discussion. If we're going to have fungible coin gaming because obviously
We're not going to have functional coin game, it's impossible to have fungible coin game, right? You need non functional objects to do game. And so the next part is now all this talk about metaverse, all right? And metal versus another one of those that you talked to 50 people and everyone's imagine something different and mostly people are imagining. Oh, I don't know where VR goggles all day. And anyway, I put the VR goggles and I want some news about oversights and they all suck like I do.
Want to do this, this this sucks, right? And I have a much more abstract, definition of the matter worse, the better versus just the internet and talking to be one website. But with better visualization. Visualization has been getting better, the whole history of the inner it all. I'm watching you live and Global video streaming and we could have done this 20 years ago.
But it's still the fact that you're like, 2 inches in size on my laptop screen is a bug. Not a feature that I'm pretty sure you're more than two inches like the Picasso thing. Like, you know, I'm pretty sure you're more than two inches in size, right? In a decade will have the glasses of Rhymes wearing to be mixed reality glasses. And we'll have this meeting. And let's say I wasn't sure do or maybe it seems you don't even K. We've seen full socks in 3D.
Either in your recording studio or the top of Mount Everest or in the 6529 Museum or what-have-you, right? Socialization is going to get better with visualization getting better, there will be more need and use for persistent digital objects water passes through digital options. PSP converter a piece of art, a three-dimensional space, anything, right? And because n of T is 0.
One of those things that are deceptively simple, they don't look like very much. I'll just a token on some edited but that very simple structure allows you to represent anything with them and we start with something as simple as. Let's, I built my own three-dimensional space, right? It's my office. It reflects my personality. Should I be able to own that the same way that I can run a web server and own my web server, or do I have to only do?
What has a page on Facebook, right? And it's a 3D page and it would be like if the Internet only allowed you to make Facebook page rank, you couldn't have your own website that wasn't allowed, right? And so, if we think the issues we have now, when centralization social media right rich, I mean, her amazing issues are very complete. Failure of Internet architecture. Notice how we have had
zero Republican versus Democrat debates about who gets to have an email account. And the reason is, of course, nothing emails less important than treating, it's more important as a more important technology than to at you can survive without Twitter. You cannot really survive in the modern world that email, but no one has come and said, my favorite political opponent should be banned from having an email account.
And the reason is not because they don't want to say that. It's unfeasible because emails SMTP and true, Google might ban you and out look like than you, but some email provider will take you. And even if knowing what provider takes you, you clean your own email server at the architecture of 11 came out of Academia and because it came out of Academia, it was all Open interoperable Standards. And that's why when one is basically, okay on the centralization, ask
Would you counsel gone Valley for lunch of people who think carefully about Network effects and value capture? And the second generation of Internet protocols ended up. Being a Facebook is medium-sized. I see Twitter is short for Messenger. LinkedIn is your paragraph. All of these things could have been protocols should have been protocols, Twitter came, the closest friend also talks about all the time he was
Isn't the board them Jack and they knew it should be a protocol. They couldn't see how to do it. This was a 2009 2010. 25, we had understood between better. We would have made it from home and if Twitter was a protocol, none of these French would be happening, right? The whole idea that who is allowed to use the dominant short, form text messaging protocol in the west should be determined by who, the CEO of Twitter is from time to time is ridiculous.
All right. Imagine thinking from first principles, that's how you should architect internet, right? Like it's bad enough to think, we should have some type of political decision, on who gets to use the internet. But the idea that that political decision should be some random decent size but random company in California that decides is, is not are like why do you do it that way? And it was because these protocols got captures companies. Now, if this is bad and I think this is bad.
I think what happens in a decade, right. But metaverse in the decade is going to be your all-encompassing ambient digital environment, right? You'll be primarily in augmented reality, your field of vision will be infused with data images, conference calls, whatever even have a eyes, assisting you in there.
It's going to be great once in a while about VR what's wrong. Shut it all off and just see the world as it is but you mean mostly an augmented reality will do it because it's super convenient and helpful. Your productivity goes up for the same reason we're all now. That's a phones right there. The bills are. I'm not going to do that. We can just safely ignore that. They also they weren't going to get smart phones. And now everyone has a quote unquote smartphone, right? And if that is a centralized firm but controls that digital space
getting kicked out of the digital space is like being cast out into the darkness, right. Your whole work life will be there. Your personal life will be there. Your family life is going to be there and it's even worse, right? Because how does some of these Technologies work, they work by pointing a camera into your field of vision. That's what we have with the reality works and think of this is a thought exercise. Imagine if I sent him, I have no objection to Mark. Zuckerberg is just useful CEO of a social media company.
True. But lovely God but imagine if I sent him like four cameras and I said it really appreciate this. If he stuck it on your head and your wife said in your kid's head and just stream the video of everything you're seeing back to the 6529 servers. There's nothing to worry about as I have to worry about. I have a privacy policy as you can see, on the bottom of the website, there's a privacy policy. And so, of course, you'll be happens. Scream your daily life to us, right? And of course on, you know, good told go jump in a lake, but that's what,
The new awful score goals are and whether the Oculus cockles are clunky. They work, they don't work. It doesn't matter. Eventually the hardware is going to work, right? And eventually when the hardware works, if of these are backed by a centralized company, what you're going to have is not only everything we discussed so far, but biometric data field of vision data, all streaming to one place. Once you have that, Honeypot someone is going to abuse it, right? My view is not that I am nice.
About human behavior is that like the people who care about fighting crime are the cynical hard asses, and I'm naive quite the opposite. I'm more cynical. I'm more cynical. That really smart. Criminals will say, oh, wait, I need to become CEO of this company, or I need to become head of the central bank, or I need to become the political leader. And if I become a political leader, and then co-opted these large companies in the CBD, sees, what have you? I will have power.
Unknown to even the most powerful dictator of 80 years ago. Joseph Stalin couldn't press a button and make someone 3,000 miles away unable to buy a tomato. But when a CBC coming soon to a western democracy in your, you'll be able to do that, right? It's a lot of power and when there's a lot of power, eventually, some ill intention person is going to take advantage of when I was gonna happen. So you put this all together and say okay. Well
Which of our crypto Technologies and that's an Susie is actually going to do the trick.
Do you think the next decade we're going to have a super explosion of fungible, token applications that for some strange reason, the whole crypto industry has forgotten to invent for the last decade. I don't think so, they're not coming. I spent almost all the in the last 10 years. In crypto, where are they? I think to myself, how can I use crypto into my daily life and as an accepting fungible tokens repayments on, you know, occasionally swapping some currency for another currency. That's great. That's usual.
A, that's great. It's Travelex right? Better. Great then. We'll all right. And so, my view is, we have a moment in time. That moment in time is 23 years. It's right now, and it is while people think this is a joke.
When we go back to Twitter example, when Jack and Fred were having deep thoughts about this putter, should be a protocol or service. The average media view of Twitter was like this is from stupid service that like Tech Pros in California. Tweet out there going to go get a ham sandwich for lunch. Who cares? Who cares about the stupid service, right? And it turns out with that was Twitter in 2009 and it turns out from
Drop point, eleven years later, the president of States. Consider the most important tool you have, is his fault. It's weird. I was only a decade right now. People look at enough to use conventional people say, oh look. It's a bunch of overpriced Bubbles and random bad heart or whatever. Leave us at the numbers actually true. Even if it is true, it's irrelevant.
There is just as clear a path. That how you go from tweeting about your ham sandwich to Angela Merkel announcing her new economic policies on Twitter, there is just a clear path from nft as being for, you know, glitch artists, 2nf, tease representing every single digital non-functional object which is a lot of them. We're gonna have a lot of digital objects. Our economy is not going to get less digital is going to get more dish.
And right now because there is Twitter, it's over, you're not going to build a decentralised Twitter because I have the network effects, right? Not going to build a centralized face. Cool. Have the network effects. Try hard to break them. The network effects for metaverse. Attach stuff are not built yet. Nobody. Nobody has figured it out. And so we have a period where the underlying technology or platformer API that will be. The network effect is a
Perhaps so it could be just to simplify as I drop their effort to simplify it could be that everyone issues are digital opportunities or everyone issues them as digital collectibles on the Facebook Horizon API right now. Facebook has not one of this technology shift, right? These things happen. Technology shifts. You have a new scramble. Usually. Another firm went here. We have an opportunity.
T to actually win a technology. We have an opportunity that the default way to issue a digital object return. And if T we actually do not I believe as much as I'm an old-school, Bitcoin Maxie, I do not believe we have any practical opportunity over the next handful of years that Bitcoin is going to displace State money.
I actually don't think there is the demand for Justice by state money and on the off chance it started to the state has a tremendously powerful set of tools to fight back.
Do I believe etherium is about to become the global Computing platform? How Amazon web services a global forum is useful for many, very interesting, permissions applications but most computational nodes are going to run on AWS. Not amateur is an open question where you can
store the database of arbitrary. Non-financial digital objects. Yes, it's an open question. It is an opportunity in as an opportunity. We can win not to have like point one percent market share as we do it like payments and banking, but 70% market, share. And there's one last thing. I'm going to be quiet for a second. There are, of course, you can make an end of T into a security because you can basically make anything into security, right? You could literally make
a banana to security through said the right things, but
You can make an end of T into not a security. In fact, you can make an end of T into First Amendment protected speech if xcopy makes an N of T and says, hey, this is me saying, I don't like the government, it is going to be very hard in the United States of America. For the SEC nasarah. Are you cannot make a piece of art, you need to get pre-approved msqc. I think there is a nonzero chance of a know how things play out.
Some nft case actually goes to Supreme Court on First Amendment grounds people try to use with Bitcoin and then the coin speech and math speech, or have you within the coins like a money type thing. It's not speech, but art. It's going to be very hard to say. Like, here xcopy piece of art is not speech. That's not speech, water speech. And so there are places and it's my concern about D Phi, D, Phi.
If I looks like regulated entities option, right? We might not like that. We might want to think about that but you know, swap will look to the eyes of the system as the type of thing. But when it's off chain, they regulate
An in-game sword in Psalm on polygon in some blockchain game, is that something that today? There's a huge Federal apparatus to regulate the in-game objects. And right games, not is there some huge Federal apparatus to check what galleries in New York or selling and make sure the buyers don't buy overpriced, Andy Warhol, Prince know, right? Like these are things that are outside.
Outside of the ray there's some real stuff even with galleries, right? But that's about it and it's not because you don't have a very heavy regulatory infrastructure. So my view is to summarize and is possibly our first true consumer application s. It is possible. You can tip over the larger organizations to say it is in our business interest. We will make more money is showing this digital wearables and of tea than running it through Facebook and one and two will work
In tandem with each other and three, it is in a part of the world that is not as threatening as to the state, right? So you're not telling them, I'm going to replace the Federal Reserve and they every time bitcoiners say that I want to just like go get them over there as if that's your letter about apologize. I'm gonna replace the Central Bank. You know what anyone's gonna think this sounds like a very bad idea. Why would I help you do that with cheer? You get to say? Instead is look, do you really want?
Facebook, extracting, 50% of the digital economy for the next 50 years as a regulator, as a politician? Does that sound like nothing? Maybe Facebook shouldn't own everything for the next 50 years, right? It's an easier. So right. And possibly possibly question, mark, possibly, we can actually have some productive relationship with the regulatory State In this River. So I'm sorry, that was one and I grant you, I am probably the single most bullish person about entities on planet Earth. A grant.
That's right.
The first half of 2021 I concluded this and everything 6529 is to get this message out as I was working because a year and a half ago, I had no idea where I am. And here I am, I'm sure
6529 we have drowned an various different topics and I want to make sure that we haven't lost listeners around the way, because if they weren't paying close attention, they might think that we have touched on very different topics throughout the podcast. But actually, I think there's a very
Solid through line here. And I want you to help me kind of weave this together as we come to a close. Here, we started talking asking you about your digital identity, your pseudo, Anonymous, nft Punk, 6529 base, identity. Then we talked about the freedom to transact and how the freedom to transact is individual self expression. And you talked about the homogenisation of the decentralized network of taxicabs, into the centralized network of Ubers. And I think the idea was to really extrapolate that out to any sort of web to service. Like with the idea that our
To transact is being lost through the centralization of all these web to apps and now we have n f, TS NN F TS R this potential because the cost to Minton and ft is so low that it can really resemble the counter Force to the homogenisation of web to it presents. A Cambrian explosion of individual expression for web three and there's something that we haven't touched on yet in this podcast, which is just like humans. Just have this part of this brain that n FTS just light up and we just like them.
For some reason. And among other reasons that we've talked about so far on this pod, like, it just seems to be people just have this when they get into the world of n FTS that. Yeah, it's just going to take over inevitably and maybe they can't really articulate that. But it's something that a lot of nft people really feel. So as we take this home, let's dive into that last part of the subject-matter of NF T's. And this incoming revolution of like digital Commerce and free digital Commerce that I think we all see coming around on this metaverse, which I agree with.
Definition is just a visualization layer with a bunch of digital objects. But what about NF? T s seems so inevitable. You've given the case for why they should come and what we have to lose if they don't come. But what about just like they're human relationship with what our brains is and how we like to collect things. Like, what about the world of nft is you think is just so
inevitable, so it really good corn days. People would say, you know, when Bitcoin 2013 had are like a five billion dollar market capital and have to use today about 10 billion dollars.
And back then people would say, oh, look, what's the compass gold? Gold 10 trillion. So long as the No 1 song called and 70, loads 20 trillion is very big numbers. Revival Century, intangibles on corporate balance sheets. Are about 70 something trillion dollars bigger than gold bigger than money supply and there's an endless number of intangibles that are nowhere to be found on a bench.
If you are an American and you believe in Freedom and you see the Statue of Liberty, or you hear about the land of the free and the home of the brave, sing the national anthem, you feel good. They tried it myself. Just feels right? Is that valuable to you as individual first variable to the country? Does a country work better. If people are proud of it and happy? Well, of course, right. There are intangibles everywhere. It's why people buy a Nike sneakers and Autumn. I'm
But sneaker, it's why people go to the ball game of their University and Shear right there. Fundamental to human societies that are really interested objectiveness, right? That the way any society of more than a couple of hundred people works, is we believe a bunch of things in common, and we believe these things we feel emotion about them. And because we Fields whoosh. I mean, an extreme example people go and die for their national flag, right?
I think in less extreme examples. People go tailgate every week and football game, right in other less extreme examples, people will pay ten thousand dollars for a watch from a fifty dollar. Watch will do the same thing and I'm not here to tell you this is bad this is fundamental to human nature is how we are right, identity matters, Community matters, emotion matters and if T's are the moment where we can take all of those feelings from an off chain World launching,
The reason people's eyes light up is exactly the same reason people's eyes light up when they are engaged in some activity that is lighting up their emotions in the often work. We now just have a technology that can carry around any arbitrary intangible on the internet.
Well, if you think veterans a big deal, I think there's a pretty big deal and I think intangible assets are a big deal and they're pretty big deal fact. I think the most important thing in society, right? You start with an intangible, that's what drives human behavior. I use this example sometimes. Yes. Really can and make America great, they don't sound like much, right? But each of those two things gave the person who thought them up access to enough nuclear weapons to M fun. I know nuclear weapons are unimportant things. Know how important thing is who gets access
choose your weapons, right? And the way you that access to a nuclear weapon wasn't by writing some complicated policy paper on nuclear weapons that's by saying yes, we can and hope and change and make America great and red hats and all these things. Things that bind humans together emotionally. It's how actually all our signs. Were you
talking about the mean, layer of society
I called memes her calls an intersubjective realities from myths, right?
Called social construction. There's no question it's how anything other than a very small family groups of people organized. Its how nation-states are organized? Why do you do the Pledge of Allegiance every day in class moment for school, why? But there, any reason other than this, of course, not why do companies have Lobos, why do universities have emblems? Why is there a Statue of Liberty in New York City, right? Sometimes people particularly People Like Us.
I swear I couldn't spreadsheets and math and computers whatever you think. Like that's the important thing will know. The thing that's Upstream of all those things is are people interested in putting in the work for certain objective. All right, and those objectives are all socially constructed. The reason anything that we do, religion art nation-states, all those things are socially constructed and what comes down stream as you know, you do something in Excel cause you're an Excel guy. All right, so
The fact that everyone who goes down then, if T Rabbit Hole mites up like this, is because you're just tapping that part of the brain. That is the underlying fabric of society. And now, for the first time we can make it composable on the inner and it's a very big deal and it's my fragile, right? Like I don't think, like, oh cool, we can lay back and kind of teasing or tripped, or gonna win because that's my biggest point.
Point of I know almost all the old secret of people almost all the boats are like about potential abuses touch and my biggest point of disagreement of them involve the novel. I don't think it's no nothing like snow and decisions made by societies and Society goes back, 30 years, all right, and there is if the path dependence of the next few years goes in a certain direction I think.
And of cheese will change the art of distraction, believe any good way. Another one,
Punk 6529. I think we're going to end it there. This has been a fantastic conversation with you. And I think there has been as David said, a single through line to this entire episode and don't know who you are in real life, of course, but you Echo. Many of the I think mental models and great thinkers in crypto that we've had on the podcast in the past, you know, the Bellagio shrinivas ins and the Chris Dixon's. And that sort of
Of thing that have been exploring the space from the early beginnings. And really see the long-term future, I think some will hear this episode and they'll still think that we're out to lunch, honestly. All of us crypto people but I guess 10 years ago when you're talking this way about Bitcoin many the early believers, they said that about them too. And so I think ultimately history will be the judge of whether you are bullish position on nft smooth the single most bullish person the world on nft.
With that position is true or not. We're certainly excited for it on Bank lists and the one thing I would say to listeners is if this is not the way towards more decentralization, what other alternative do we have made me a better alternative that get Society to an outcome that we're all hopeful towards. So Punk 6529 we appreciate you being on Bank lists and thanks for your time today. Well
thank you for having me. I am putting up with my ranting and raving about anesthesia and I
appreciate your time. Thank us nation, hope you.
Enjoyed this episode. I'm going to link to a few of punk, 6529. S, most famous threads, the freedom to transact. We mentioned it here whilst a link to some of his metaverse threads as well. He also has some fascinating life advice that we didn't get to in this episode. But I think you should look through a couple of threads one called making it. What does it mean to actually make it in life and another thread on the shortness of Life? Give him a follow as well, guys, gotta end it here. Of course with the wrist and disclaimers crypto is risky.
You could lose what you put in and if these are risky as well. But we're headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone. But we're glad you're with us on the bank was Journey. Thanks
a lot.
