This is the Jocko underground podcasts in here with Echo Charles.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, sitting here with that goat Ross, we were gonna I propose your back from Hawaii every year but ready to get back in the game, on the mats of Justice. I sent you a text. Hey, train at this time. We'll record done when we're done you denied. Yeah, you did not want to do it. You might not want to partake at literally 0% interested in your product. Well, I okay, well,
okay. I don't want to make this too long of a story.
We do run that risk. So if a bunch of people just like a chat first, first off you're correct, I am back
from Hawaii and I am back in the game, 100%. So in Hawaii was let's say it was a slacker trip. Okay. Little bit, I worked out a little bit but I drink a lot of beer. I'm not gutting party or nothing like this but like you know I don't really drink that much beer, good that. So, anyway, diet kind of fell off. Anyway, so when I get back,
And you know we all feel like that we get back from vacation. I'm getting I'm going hard. In fact setting straight up goals with numbers with
numbers. Check this brother out. So anyway, the past week has
been strong strong like on the path. Good numbers way, hit I'm ahead of
schedule raining, what you just do is
training Jiu-Jitsu schedule is on schedule and has been up in training all week, lifting everything,
okay? When you texted me today,
right, a Jiu-Jitsu training was not part of the
Do you have a schedule? Like, I haven't planned, like, I'm training this way to see this
day. Did you two should always be on the scared every single day? Yes, see. Yeah, I'm not there.
Yeah, okay that's not that's not where I'm at. On the in the program seems thing. Okay. So anyway, and I'm like in the middle or in the middle of my work out, literally, in the middle of my work at
10:00 in the morning and you're over here. Okay, in here, over here, let's go in the morning of a job sir. Anyway, I'm currently training like a lunchtime work.
Starts at 11:30 a morning, workout goes until 7:30 8:00, and then we'll call you doing it. Then we'll call it a brunch. We're
gonna guess, we have some people in town. We hung out in the morning a little bit, you know, I got to the workout, he did heart all good. But in the middle of it, they in Here Comes Your to kind of lift towards it. Like what I do. Okay.
So I chose a bad question. Yeah. You're about to get detailed little more detailed than anybody. Didn't put it this way. I did a shoulder
circuit. Okay. I didn't arm circuit. Jen. I did it
Macon.
Yeah. Like a
Airdyne thing anyway. The air assault bike
so you were tired.
I was in the middle of a workout so you can't just roll in. Spontaneously changing the whole program can't do that. It's not how it's going, you know, that's not how the workout program works. So you seem, let's train which is going to be like, less than however, many
hours. I said, let's train after we get done recording correct. And you said no to that too.
Nope. Well the part of the program.
So I like how that's in your mind?
Justification. Yeah, like that's do legitimate. You might as well just said, that's against the law or against the Constitution of United States of America. That's how you're talking about because did you do wasn't predetermined
correct? So here's the weird thing, freaking ridiculous, what you just said right there? You're, you're like, you're on, you're on Tucson. Is because I thought to myself like why wouldn't I cause I felt a pressure, you know, when you're like you know when someone asks you to train and you know what you do
morally? Do you know what the right thing to do is I wouldn't go that far sorry
but a little bit of that what you just said is true
Ooh because it's kind of like hey it's not like I don't want to train. It's not like I don't want to do just like I feel like me saying no to training is me saying no to IT training opportunity. It's what it felt like. Specially did you Jocko have a way and I think other people can vouch for this. You have a way of like saying stuff without saying stuff,
it's a taxi bro. It sucks. I said do you want to train it then we record after watch. So you can imagine how powerful that is.
I feel it and I felt that there was no exception. You're like oh yeah
let's train. I was sending brain - braid waves towards you. Oh yeah. Loud and clear
but every once in a while so now I'm in a conundrum. Like doing
do I give in to docos 3s? Sure it's positive. Peer pressure. Exactly. Right. So now you can imagine my would you feel better if we train right now? No, you got to be kidding me.
Well then again, I don't know. So the answer honestly,
if we were to change right now, had a good role did
Six seven rounds, pretty chill. And you would not feel better right now. I don't know and I honestly say, I don't know in this is why. Because I
think I went, you know, how like you get on the program like for a week or however many weeks you might not know this. But this is part of the game, sometimes where you kind of go too hard. If you go too hard to with a workout in too hard with a diet, then you can like, go into overtraining. Okay. Is that where you're at right now? I don't know, but me, but maybe
that one event. You should see. What if with you there.
What is it
that I'm on the program and then the in and I'm doing like if I double my workout will say or whatever is that part of the program?
Yeah, this is what I'm going through my head, by the way to justify me. Say no and not feel like guilty or whatever. So but then but then I thought back to my whole like my whole life. No.
It's just a tax fraud, coming. Great,
I don't like that. My whole life when I started, like, working out and doing stuff, and when I first learned about like working out in programs and stuff, I've always done that. I always like, even if it's like good for me, it's not part of the program. I'm not doing it
because it's almost it started off
with, like, okay, if I do something different than the program. How do I know if this program actually works? If I didn't follow it correctly, right? So but then I got so like so strict to that idea that it kind of
It into this lecture, how to drink and beard Hawaii. Not working out for three weeks at how about fit on the programme was that was not on the program. Okay?
But nonetheless, you would have yet, that's what I was like contemplating in my head but here's the thing. Look after workout, I go into recovery
period with you. By the way, is not a recovery period that is the
opposite of recovery period. So anyway, so we did not train. No, we did not change today. Maybe we'll change tomorrow actually tomorrow, I've
off.
If so, don't even bother me tomorrow, okay? All right. Well, here we are. We can, can you do this? Can you make it through this tide? You get K dog in here. Get carrying your because you're recovering. Right now, you gotta go use a fair gun on your on your shoulder that whatever, whatever. But it's true. It's true. All right. Well, let's talk a little bit. I got to ask a question.
The topic, the topic is, is a common topic that you hear a lot of people say, it's, you know, with social media out there, no one, there's no consequences, right? And someone asked me, you know, hey, isn't it seem like social media has no consequences and it's just it just makes anybody able to say anything. Yeah. And and that seemed like a really good launch point.
For me to like, launch into like hell, yeah, social media, no one no one would say that to my face, they would have to pay for that kind of thing. And and I was my actual response was well actually I don't really like I'm not going to let some random unknown person on Twitter, bother me. So that's my recommendation. My recommendation is you don't let social media.
Bother you because it's a lot. And I guess we have to give some credit to Joe Rogan on that because he tells people all the time. What does he say? He posts and ghosts to go but he did not read in the comments. He tells everyone don't don't read the comments and I think I can, I can't actually read the comments and sometimes they're funny and whatever. But I don't let him get me mad. Yeah, how's it going to get you mad? It's a random person and they got to be bothered.
You know what's going on in their world that they came onto your area and started for your comments down like they got they got issues pan. Yeah you ain't gotta worry about these people that are doing this stuff that's that's that's where I'm coming from. That being said there is there is a phenomenon that occurs on social media and it's sort of like a mob right there people. And it not just social media, but like the whole news, everyone can kind of get caught up in in groupthink.
And I was just going through some of the, some of the psychological causes of mob mentality. And I was, I was looking at Psychology today.com and and I realized there's just when you see the, the psychology of a mob and you compare it to this. What you have on social media. It's the same thing. So in a mob, there's d individuation,
Right? Meaning, you're part of a group. So you don't feel like you're your yourself anymore, that you're part of this group and that happens on social media like you see a bunch of people chiming in. Well, you're going to chime in too, you lose your own individual thought.
So, that's number one. Number two, it's the same type of thing. But your identity, your personal identity, when you're part of a group, you lose your personal identity and you take on the identity of the group. So, this happens on social media. That's why social media is so divisive or I guess it's one of the reasons why social media is so divisive. One of the other reasons is because if you can't smack someone in the face, nothing, but but it is one of the reasons cause people kind of lose their Identity or they want to be part of that.
Lynch Mob. That's throwing the hate hate hate. Like let me jump in. You know, the other thing that's funny about Twitter is you think you're going to say something and everyone's going to care about you know, like no one actually does, you know? Yeah. Hey actually, it's going to be interesting with with Elon Musk trying to buy it and he's been saying I want, I need to know how many of these are real people.
And they won't tell them. They won't tell him. She's like I'm out, bro. He's like I'm out you know that's like you're going to buy a house and you say well how many bedrooms on the house? They say we're not doing they say 10-bedroom right? And you say well that's a big house. Damn that this is going to be a good deal and then you kind of get word that some of those bedrooms aren't even there. Yeah. And you say might be a five-bedroom so not now, maybe I should be paying half for it so that's Elon Musk. So, a lot of these, these Twitter,
Sponsors and stuff. They're not even real people apparently
Yeah so that's going on. Then here's what's going on. Another thing from psychology emotions, it's as being part of a group can lead to heightened emotional states. Be that excitement anger or hostility how factually true is that with social media, right? You're sitting there, you know, you just got done with dinner, you're feeling chill, you pick up your phone and you see that bar and you just decide to get all mad. That's what happens man.
That's what happens to people. It's crazy. Yeah. And then you then you chime in and here's the thing, if you're mad and you post something and I see that you posted and it's going to make me mad that I posted League grows what a crazy thing.
Yeah, it's real, it feels
I think this was Joe Rogan actually said this mean really good point, right? So the so Twitter, wherever wherever, when you post something, you write something, you post it. When you post it it to there. It's not like someone said it turn on the street and then they're gone and then you kind of would forget about it. You posted there as for you to see whenever forever and for everyone else to see. So it's almost like someone makes it a point to go on record to say XYZ. That's what it feels like it's there. There's an additional something to it, I think.
Definitely, it's definitely in some ways more than just saying. Yeah, if you if I walk by you and Isaiah, you bald bastard or whatever. Cool. But if I put it and post it, well, then it's out there. It's actually
like comparing it to like, I don't know, maybe you're a UFC fighter or caught or musician or something. And someone in the crowd is yelling, you suck, you know, kind of thing. It's like, that's lame, but they don't really care because of the show goes on other stuff happens and whatever you forget about AIDS. Yeah.
But this is like, like I said, I'm going on record forever saying, this one thing you suck and it's like right there for you. And I when just so it kind of feels like it's more official or something. Yeah, you know, but even though it is literally the same
thing. Well also I thing is just like in the team's if you ever let anybody know that something's bothering you, they're gonna ride that thing row. They're gonna ride it to the moon. Yeah so you can't let that happen and then think it's the same thing here. Yeah. If you're getting all
frustrated. Hey wait a second.
What who are you
to say that to me? Like you see, if you read Twitter, people say that kind of stuff. Hey who are you to say that? To me? What have you done? They say that kind of stuff I've seen it right? Yeah. That's that's like a legitimate conversation with a unknown entity. Yeah that has no place. It's funny because like you know when
you talk about it like this what is something you might call
detached? Yeah, it's a detached perhaps a, my career
seems really obvious you know.
Like if you were to ask someone true or false, it's okay to get into arguments on Facebook with people, true or false. I was a false. People would say false and pretty easy to. Yeah, unless you get some Nuance thing and someone's like talking about exceptions and all this other stuff. But generally speaking from a detached perspective, it's pretty obvious. You know. Like should you let people you don't know or care about bother you. Yeah, by posting stuff on Twitter. Should that bother you? It's
like, no - and then check this
Shout, let's say you and I knew each other.
Should I should you and I get in an argument on to, on Facebook in front of all of our group of friends. Yeah, this just because you could say, well, we don't know each other but no, no, I actually no Echo. Why would he say that? Yeah. Would it be appropriate if you're gonna? If you and I are going to argue, there's a party and you and I argue the best way to do it, is you and I start yelling in the middle of the party. Is that likely publicly? And then just multiply, that times 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000, because it's on social media. So, none of this stuff
Makes sense. Yeah, none of it makes sense. And yet people are getting all ate up with it. This is kind of a similar thing except ability behaviors that are usually seen as unacceptable become acceptable. When others in a group or seen carrying them out. It's just the whole, the whole rules change. Yeah, I can say whatever I want. Echo Dyke Show Echo called him. That cool. I can say something. Even even I can Edge it up a little bit. Yeah, you know I'm saying and Anatomy. This is a
Obvious one people feel Anonymous when they're within a large group, which reduces their sense of responsibility and accountability, that's why people in riots go break windows and stuff. They don't think they're going to get caught.
Diffusion of responsibility, being part of a group creates, the perception that violent or unacceptable behavior, is not a personal responsibility, but a group one, so you're getting out of it. Basically, everyone else is hating on Echo. I'm going to throw a couple Jabs in there too. Yeah, you know never mind his feelings. Yeah. And if and if he gets
mad and somebody got to pay the price. It's kind of like I know in the group, it does feel like that though, where let's say, there's a hundred people in the group were all doing something bad. I kind of feel like
One one-hundredth of the, like, responsibility of it. What? It feels like.
Definitely, that's the psychology of it as well, 100%. Yeah.
So yeah. Just go wild,
right? Yeah. He was like, yeah, that's exactly what happens, dude. The last one is the larger. The group or crowd? The more likely there will be a deindividuation of and diffusion of responsibility. So what you just said, if there's a hundred people, it's you feel,
Whatever there's 1,000 then you feel 1/1000 which is no guilt whatsoever. So that's what we're seeing. The mob mentality on the Internet is the same thing that happens in a big giant Riot and how to control protest, whatever. It's going to be it's literally the same thing which is why you as a person should be careful not to get caught up in the mob doing dumb stuff.
Because even though you might get away with it it's still is not good. Yeah right. It just doesn't make sense and and and also you shouldn't let the mob affect you if they're common as you and getting all crazy. It's they're not hurting you. They're they're saying words to you they're putting little digital letters together so don't take it. So seriously.
Imagine if imagine if social media was just 100% like fun. Well you can we just all just for whatever reason? No one took it.
Seriously. Yeah. Like they took it as serious as they should kind of a thing like like basically we weren't Elite. Yeah. Illusion of all. This wasn't there like is to
does like oh yeah it's just. Yes funny. Yeah that's kind of how I feel like I know I feel sometimes. Yeah, it's okay. Let me ask you this
because you're kind of getting in a unique position or
Right? Where you have like a ton of followers, so, you know, when you're in that kind of public figure position. All right, you know, it's it's obvious from the outside to be like, hey, you need to expect this kind of stuff like strangers. Yeah. Saying bad things about you potentially, like, you got to expect that kind of stuff versus someone who's not a public figure, who just as sort of cruising on there and just doing normal everyday stuff on there and then they take some Hate by somebody, they don't know if feels like, hey man, I feel like they would get affected by it just naturally.
More than a public figure type person. Yeah. Or should I say the public figure person should be affected by less, just because it almost is super obvious that it comes with the territory, almost kind of a
thing. Yeah, you're going to people are going to just going to come at you. I mean just like you know those little bird scooters, you know, I'm talking about they're like little electric scooters. Yeah. And you could drive around with there's like one called bird. Just want to call the lime they hit. I think Uber has them now. Well, they put them out in.
Like the neighborhood where I live and people just destroy people. Just destroy them problem. They hugged him off the cliff. They threw him through Windows. It was like Mayhem. Wait, you
can like rent them or something. Yeah. You you have an
app on your phone you see these little people on scooters, right? So you have an app on your phone and it cost you a dollar a minute or what. I don't even know how much it costs but you get on him. You scooter around right? Well people need to just leave it there
right way, you guys leave it there we where it is and this is the same.
Well, I've what I heard was they have this in your
Bright in Holland or something and in the in Holland or France or wherever people drive them, they Park them in and let him for the next person where I lived a sock him off the cliff, they run them over with cars, they smashed him through windows. So there's just going to be people like it seems like a good idea, right? And you get this little thing, it's real cheap. You can G because sometimes sometimes too far to drive, right? Or sorry to look too far to walk. Too. Close to drive you nuts. A nice little happy medium. I'll jump on this.
All scooter cost me 50 cents, but somebody just goes, oh, I'm just gonna hock that yeah window. Yeah, so you got people out there that are just gonna break shit and they're gonna, they're gonna do, they're gonna do mean stuff. They're going to be problem, right? So yes, if you're on social media, somebody's going to Huck obscure through your virtual window if they get the chance and you gotta be ready for that. Now look that's the way kind of America is.
America is a little bit more wild than some other countries. You know, we have a little bit more wildness to us. People go out Wilding like just getting after it and then you throw some booze in the mix. You don't know what's gonna happen. So the same things going to happen in life, right? And so in social media and you got you can't take it. You can't get you can't get upset about it. Yeah there's no the thing is in for a virtual scooter thrown through your window isn't real. Yeah. Didn't even
You can just don't ignore it, move on no
Factor. But what percentage of that, or should I say in your brain? Where if you see a bad or negative comment? Like what percent of that is like you being insecure about something that's actually true. Oh yes. Real to you know. Yeah. So it's almost like it doesn't matter who said that someone, you know, don't know a bot. It doesn't matter because if it affects you like I'm insecure about that. It's like, it's kind of true,
you know. Yeah. And then, you know, yeah man. Maybe I should you know.
Lift more. I know. But rather that's you know, that's
the the challenge,
right? You got it, you know? I guess what? Here's what here's. What's the reality you got to face your, not superhuman Superman, right? Yeah, and people can look at me and be like, oh, look at jogger. He's got gray
hair, brutal,
like I do, what, what my house that supposed to, you know, what am I supposed to do with that, you know? Yeah, yeah. He's alt, yeah, I kind of am.
I don't think I'm that old. I don't feel
old. What's the worst thing that you can remember someone saying about you? Oh man,
I don't know. I'd have to go review comments, I guess because there's like it into it.
There's different types and levels of insult, right? Because some insults are just like complete throw away. Like one of mine that they insulted me. They said that I should die.
Obviously you like, okay. Like that's going hard but it's comment after my own heart.
It's
comical how hard they went and I can. So obviously it's like that kind but then if someone said something about like I don't know just something that's a little bit more down to
earth like Michael reality will stay some people say stuff about your a cure your appearances on the Jackal podcast a little bit. Yeah. So so
there's no. So that's what I'm saying like what's the worst because like some people like if they're against the war or something they're going to say some negative stuff about you like you know, like
Like,
yeah, you know, and it's like, well, if you supported the military industrial complex, really? Yeah, you're right, I can't have that. Make me mad? I mean, that's a real thing. Yeah. By my participation in the military and in fighting Wars, I definitely the military-industrial complex definitely benefited from me. Yeah,
so really that's like the two battles, right? That you're fighting on social media is want to understand it.
Social media, it's not real life and to is the battle kind of with your own like it's like you guys. Did you guys talk about having an honest self-assessment kind of thing? It's like it's the battle with
that kind of a thing, you know. I wrote leadership strategy and tactics. I was like how do you receive criticism from someone that you don't like, you don't respect. And that really, you don't think even deserve to give you any criticism? Yeah. And I wrote, I was like, oh, what you do in a situation like that
As you listen to what they have to say. Yeah, and you try and figure out how you can apply it to make yourself better. And it'll it really,
that's like that can prove as one of the hardest things to do ever ever in like that is if it's from someone who a has no, like let's say their status or position in the company there, whatever their expertise whatever, they have no business criticizing you. Yeah. Or giving you like - or critical feedback or whatever, that's a and b if they do
In like a condescending or a tone that's off. In some way, the put those things together from its rights and
possible. Red ball, is borderline impossible. Check this out, I've been in situations where I have been
fully
approved and and should be fully, authorized to tell someone something. And they've been like, it couldn't take, it couldn't take it. And I'm talking, you know, you get like a young seal officer that has dead never been on.
I meant before literally knows nothing. I'm at the tail end of my career and I have a decent amount of knowledge, and I might say something. Like, and this wouldn't happen very often. And usually, when it did happen, it usually result in like a real problem because this means the person is just not going to be not gonna get it. But you know, I give him some hay. You might not want to whatever you might not want to push that many guys in the building right out of the gate. Well, what if the okay you think to yourself? It's crazy to and I'm not even I'm not
A
deck. You know hey dude if you're that initial entry you might want to push everyone. I think Michael would crowd in those first couple rooms. You got so many and instead of being like hey cool yeah that makes sense or even like cool I'll consider that even that would be, you know. Hey I might not right I'm not right about everything just offering a suggestion. But think of that,
So if you get someone that's that you did that you'd it doesn't have any business telling you this. I'd you don't think they have any business done but people are crazy man. People the ego, the ego
is so crazy.
The ego so crazy people don't even recognize what's happening. They don't even recognize what's happening. They can't even. They can't even understand that ego. Blinds people so much that they don't even, they can't detach from it. I've had people that I've
Like red extreme ownership, red dichotomy, listen to the podcast, and I'm talking to them, and they can't detach and see that, you know, like, well, the company's doing this wrong. Hey, I get it, you know what? It sounds like the company that you work with doesn't have great communication, did I? It definitely seems that way. What what you need to do is adjust the way you're interacting with your
Your boss? What? My boss will. Tell me what's going on. I get it. I get it but you need to change the way you interact with your boss. Well why is it my business to change? Like that's what they're saying to me. Yeah that's great. And that's pure ego. Yeah. So it's very very difficult to get that thing under control. That's why what you just said you're almost kind of beside yourself. You didn't almost didn't have the words to express how hard it is to have someone that you don't respect give you feedback and accept it.
You know, it's so good though is like let's say your team is getting debriefed and you're getting debriefed by some guy that you don't like and no one likes on the team and then the guy walks away and everyone's and you go, hey maybe made some good points. It's so disarming, you know, it was her why would that guy is such a piece of shit. He should not do you know, he did have a good point about her head count. We could have done that clicker. Yeah. And just you know like let's move on. Let's just listen to what somebody has to say. If this is not easy, man. Yeah.
Yeah, I get it. I get it. I'll tell you what though it is. It does seem like there's a repeated repeated gravitational pull that you kind of have to just overcome and then when you overcome it, you like, ah, yeah. You can you kind of get Break Free of it. But it doesn't, you don't break free of your ego one time. And now you're like cool you break free of your ego like 38 times a day. 38 times a day. Something happens where you're like
Like I can't believe echoes in your tummy that know it's like okay. You know what?
Hey Echo. Thanks for the feedback on that and then you get home and your wife's like you're late for dinner and meanwhile you just worked a 19-hour shift and your was you're late for dinner and you know it's you want to slap back or clap back, whatever the expression is. Don't slap your wife. You want to, you want to, you want to go hard, right? But what you gotta do is you gotta break that grab. That is a little excerpt of what we are doing on the Jocko underground podcast. So if you want to continue
You to listen, go to Jocko, underground.com And subscribe, and we're doing this to mitigate our Reliance on external platforms. So, we are not subject to their control and we're doing this so that we can support the Jocko podcast, which will remain as is free for all as long as we can keep it that way. But we are doing this so we don't have to be under the control of sponsors and we're doing it so we can give you more control, more interaction, more direct.
Connections better Communications with us.
And to do that, we are we're building a website right now where will be able to utilize to strengthen this Legion of Troopers that are in the game with us. So thank you. It's Jocko underground.com. It cost eight dollars and 18 cents a month and if you can't afford to support us, we can still support you just email assistants at Jocko underground.com and we'll get you taken care of until then we will see you mobilized.
Underground.
