Dr. T. Colin Campbell: Keeping Plant-Based Nutrition Whole for Optimal Health

Hello fellow nerds and welcome to another episode of The Modern Health nerd podcast where we bring you fascinating conversations with the movers shakers and innovators in food Health, Agriculture and everywhere in between. I'm your host, Teresa Sam, Houston, Chief nerd, at the Modern Health nerd and today I

I am honored to bring you my interview with dr. T, Colin, Campbell. Dr. Campbell has been researching the effects of nutrition on health and disease for decades, and is actually the one who's credited with coining. The term, Whole Food plant-based diet. I thought it was only fitting to wrap up with dr. Campbell's episode, as I come to the end of what I'm going to call season, one of the Modern Health nerd podcast. This is episode.

45. And if you've been listening from the beginning, you'll remember that. I've had several different people who follow, and teach Whole Food, plant-based nutrition. I talked with Sid knotter, who is the author of the plan, a diet? I like to tell people that Sid, literally wrote the book on being Christian and plant-based, Iowa, whole lot to sins writing and support. I also had dead check who is a Physicians committee for responsible medicine, food for life.

Actor. And I had Jeff rossen Blum. Who is a whole food plant-based, trainer. Dr. Campbell takes nutrition from the science. Side. Everything that he does is evidence-based. He's the author of several books, including The China Study whole and the future of nutrition. If you haven't read these books, I highly encourage you to go to the show notes and check them out. They are all amazing. Dives into not.

Only how food and nutrition and plant-based eating affect human health, but also why plant-based diets. Haven't really made it to the mainstream policy-wise and why we don't hear a lot about plant-based diets as preventative measures in the field of medicine. We do touch on a few of these things. During the podcast interview and dr. Campbell goes into a lot more detail about his research on animal protein, plant-based diets, and the different

Acts that they have on health including effects on diseases like cancer. We also discuss how the common reductionist approach in nutrition and nutrition. Reporting has left the public completely confused about the concept and about the subject in general and why we need to take a more holistic view, both of nutrition and health. Before we dive into these amazing insights. I want to just say thank you for listening to these episodes of The Modern Health Therapy.

Cast. Thanks for your support. If you haven't already, please subscribe to the podcast. Leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. And if you liked this episode, please share it with a friend. It would mean a lot to, I think dr. Campbell to help get this message out there a little bit more about why we need to be eating more whole plant foods. And now, without further Ado or housekeeping my interview with dr. T Colin? Campbell. Well, dr.

Well, welcome to the podcast. I am very honored to have you as a guest on the very last episode of the first season of The Modern Health

nerd. Well, thank you. It's a real pleasure and privilege for

me, and just in case. Anyone listening is not familiar with it. Could you give us a little rundown of what you've been spending your career doing and a little bit of what got you into it in the first

place. Well, many years ago. Of course. First of all, this is germane to my conversation, but I was raised on a dairy farm.

Nothing towels. And then I was educated in graduate school at Cornell University on the idea that we should consume more animal-based protein. That's what my research was and then my subsequent academic appointment. I was the person responsible for project in the Philippines with malnourished children who were supposed to be getting more protein? That was destroyed the day. So my career started out was all about

Teen animal-based protein, but that is subsequently found out, that's not really true. So, I spent the rest of my career and a lot of research and policy development sort of thing. Actually, first off questioning my own beliefs for much of the early time, and that's where science came in to be headed. As far as I'm concerned. I then came back to Cornell shortly thereafter and I was been on the faculty Cornell, most of my career, but it was really about sort of either accepting this something I saw in.

Getting that animal protein is not quite what we think it is either accepting or less a rejecting it. What's the problem? So my whole career really has been concerned. Been focused pretty much on the biochemistry and the scientific basis for our beliefs about animal protein, being so important. And that's why my form background was germane to this because I'm not cows. We slaughtered own animals. We do all the usual things on the farm and

And so I came from that background. I didn't come into this business. Now being a vegan dish, must must tell you a vegetarian. I came into it entirely because of design specific basis and also because I got involved in that project and of doping speeding, malnourished children, that was a big motivation for me to realize that you know, the number of people in the world children especially were in a. It adequately fed. Don't get enough food, you know, run certainly not the right.

Kind of hurts and then later it became apparent that we, who think we're so smart. We get all the food. We what we tend to eat the wrong Foods. So we get lots of cancer, lots of heart disease, diabetes. We get all the rest. So, most of my career in the last, let's say two-thirds of least has been focused on that. What does food have to do with our health? And, you know, that's one thing in a second thing is, you know, when I start telling a story to the public had given lots of public

Usher's, of course, over the years, one of the first questions I get, why haven't we heard it before? So that brings me answer questions concerning the history of this field back in the late 1970s. I was on a government panel at that time, one cancer, cancer research, and most of all my colleagues were oncologists people like that. I was the only one had any experience in nutrition. So they wanted me to take some time off from one of our meetings and sort of give them a little lecture on nutrition. And I knew that

Some of what some are what I was thinking was leaning towards vegetarianism, but I didn't want you to use that word. So I came up with a different word. That was for the plant-based word came up from is not the best choice, but there it was and it kind of stuck and then little later on I learned, especially working with the Federal Trade Commission on health claims. I learned that nutrition is not coming from Individual nutrients, like defined as supplements nutrition comes from Whole Food. So I got basically two posts pillars away.

However, you want to call him that really support. What? I think and comprehend the science one is let's say eight plants. Number one. Number two. Let's try to keep use whole plants. We can cut them up and dice them up, cooking all that. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about when we eat that food, eat the whole, you know, all the contents of the progeny either altogether. Yes, the nature at work. And so, just that simple, simple little idea, each whole food as much as possible.

A plants. And we get most of the, I'd say, at least 90 to 95 percent of the benefit that we can get out of that system. So this year, I wrote the book to China Study. That's never been translated into 50. That's 50 foreign languages. So it's really going around the world. I must say most of my other books in that's all since my retirement. So I'm just now becoming aware that there's a message, is really in some ways, very old, we could trace it back to the ancient Greeks, we can trace it back to the origin of some of the

Religions and that sort of thing, people knew this, you know, long time ago, but Through the Ages, especially the last couple hundred years in the west. We've got more fascinated with making money on food rather than using food to make health. So that's that's the bottom line. And I think the public is to, of course, terribly misinformed. As I was, I'm one of the public, but I just happen to be fortunate enough to be in research and had some opportunities through question, my own beliefs and so we

Lot of research at a big research program and I learned a lot of things especially about the relationship of nutrition with Chancellor but also with heart disease and diabetes and that sort of thing. I've been on the bandwagon for a while, you know, trying to talk about this story because it makes people. Well, it really acts very fast. People have been diagnosed with heart disease, diabetes, so forth. They got health problems, all kinds. If they switch this diet. It's amazing how soon the benefit.

Start showing up. That's it. In a nutshell. Big Notch Trail.

Well, it's a big topic. There's so much in nutrition. There's so much in food in general. I mean, I've read your books. They were at whole. I read your newer one and China study. And I keep coming back often to the point. You make in hole that we don't know everything about how nutrients interact and I wonder do you feel that sometimes nutrition science is part of the issue because it can be as you often point out a reductionist approach and

The media tends to hijack and make headlines out of

it. Absolutely. That that is the key question. You just asked right there nutrition, you know, I consider to be a scientist, a very elegant science to be honest about it because it's very, very complex in many ways. It's about chemical level. So what we have to do is kind of sort out. How do we understand? How do we study are very complex biochemical? So bleep like this? That's the essence of it. And of course I say all these things work together in the food.

Okay, the whole medical system in contrast is focused on a very reductionist approach. Individual nurses, do whatever they do whatever they do, there's individual diseases and there's individual mechanism responsible for the disease and we can use individual chemicals to treat the disease, like drugs.

So, our whole medical system, for example, is a, as an Enterprise in reductionism. Look at one thing at a time, that makes money, that's where the money is. And so, we lose sight of what these things can do for personal Health Nutrition, and kind of press is the opposite, many ways, everything working together and we can make ourselves. Well all by ourselves without necessarily having professionals. Look over our shoulders all the time. We just eat the right food and Gain.

Health Omega throw in a, this is totally anecdotal. Just small one example, but I have my own personal issues. Everybody knows you can think of family and friends and so forth. My wife wants was diagnosed. I did with Advanced melanoma. That's a very serious cancer and she was told to take this drug and had already metastasized to her lymph glands. And so they want to take out a little Implement all that stuff. The routine. She said, I ain't want to do it and the oncology got

Upset with it, and she said, ma'am, if you don't do that, no, six months. I can't help you. Well, that was now 17 years ago. She's 80. I'm 87, you know, we really got with it and I've seen so many people, especially through my colleagues and their clinical setting. I'm not a clinician. I'm a researcher, a medical researcher, but I've got a lot of wonderful colleagues in the field of medicine, dr. Esselstyn and, or Niche, and mcdougald. And

Goldhammer and on, and on, and on, they work with people. And there's some are just focused on this idea of using plants and they say amazing results. It's incredible. Now, so, shouldn't it nutrition is not understood is not taught in a single medical school in the United States. Can you believe that? And there's 130 medical specialty by which positions get reimbursed for their services, by the way, but Nick has 130 Medical Specialties War Less in the Medicare program. Now, one is called the trulie.

Shannon. So it means positions aren't it's difficult for them to get adequate compensation for their services. So here we have a whole medical system all focused on the wrong idea, you know, there we can identify which disease one has what's the mechanism which drawing and so forth. And so on that that is a lot of confusion and it's a result. The public is terribly confused. When we start up to talk about each nutrient, one at a time which mechanism reach disease. That is so confusing and that's why there's no progress now.

Ey nutrition is not not really taken very seriously about a lot of people because they don't know what to believe. And I've seen that at the policy level, the national policy level. The whole system was in Food and Health policy development in the United States. For example, and elsewhere to the whole system is pretty much focused on the idea is that actually make money were driven by more than anything by the need to make money and we get pretty excessive about it. And so, you know, as long as we can have a

Nutrient or specific drug lord. This is that way. And most, we can refine a message down to something really simple and then we get an intellectual property protection for that as a legal device to give us ownership of the idea at that point in time. We can begin to sell it, that's this system or living in. It makes a lot of money does not make a lot of Health. The two are just almost to some extent at odds with each other. I don't think it has to be that way but that's the system were caught in and so

So I'm just for eating plants growing a garden. If you can, you know, getting good food. I'm also really impassioned. I guess you could say I'm a very keenly interested and a lot of people in the world who don't have the means to do this, like the inner city is so called food deserts where we call them that, a lot of people in the inner city and elsewhere. They don't have the funding for the means to get access to good food, or eat, or even to grow their own food, their victims to our system.

And so they have an excessive amount of obesity and diabetes, and things like that. So there's that element to this story that needs to be taken. Seriously, one final thing, the environment environment problems. We have global warming and climate change all your same things here. Number one, cause of that problem. Lots of them in the environment that I want, cause you're eating the wrong food, producer the wrong food, that just tears up the environment. When producing a lot of livestock around the world. That was my background is as a kid.

But nonetheless were growing, a lot of Catalan killing billions of animals for what to get their protein. No, we don't need that protein. There's no basis for that role as a myth. So if we can stop that, we can turn around these erosion of our planet, if you will. And so that could be corrected surprisingly fast by simply eating the right food running helter joy and Lord, actually seeing the results.

There's nothing more to it. It's really

simple. It's a lot to unpack there. But I think I'll start with the last thing you said about the climate. One of the things that is really prevalent in the current plant based movement is exactly what you said. We need a fast change in order to recover the climate, what I'm seeing. And we were talking about before we started recording as somebody who's been in watching the plant-based base for a while. And I know there's people who've been watching it longer than I have. I see a lot of these products that are

Coming out that have plant-based labels, but are not really anywhere near the plant that they actually came from. And I don't see a lot of them delivering on the health promise of what was originally supposed to be a plant-based diet. But a lot of them are clinging to that climate thing. I'd like to just hear your thoughts on where the plant based movement has gone as it's begun to explode, especially as somebody who really pioneered this whole idea.

A lot of hijacking has gone on. We've seen massive like IPOs going on. Going back to your point about the system that makes money. I just like to hear your thoughts on where it's going and what you think we should be doing

as you're good. Good question. I'm disappointed in some ways and other ways. I'm somewhat encouraged because they conversation about plant-based diets because certainly in large become much more sensitive. So at least we're getting the words in our head as to how we, you know, choose.

Is to use those words and live our lives. It's a little bit different story. The plant-based idea is becoming somewhat of Tractive, interesting, I guess. And unfortunately, the way that some folks want to advance that causes to do it in a way, which it makes money. So they make these fake meats and they do this and that and some a lot of people get in this movement have been for a long time. As, you know, simply because they don't want to kill animals, you know, to be respectful of other life and I share that view.

For sure, that's a good. That's a good opinion. But that's not the only thing obviously. So one of the movements in the in this thing is to make these plant-based food products, taste like me. And so they have this one area that work, they take the storage genetic template of animal products, animal flesh, and that grow protein. So, there's tastes just like to meet. You don't have to kill animals to do it for the most part. They think they're gaining something. No.

Oh, they're not because the protein is being produced. In that case is exactly the same with what was in the original animal. So it's kind of a slippery slope the main thing. I think they're driving force for a lot of this change. That's occurring. That's kind of disappointing. Is that the first thing that people have in mind, let's make money on this thing. That's the problem. And so we make a lot of food, probably, for example, and advertise that as being very kind of special, but what they do to get people to buy these

Probably sometimes there's three three nutrients that they use, that are addictive, salt sugar and fat. And so, you know, we all get addicted to those three tastes. If you will, we consume them early in life when there's past as we go through life. We tended want more and more because I like it, you know, become addicted to it. And so some of the products of their foot grocery shelves, aside for them fake meat and things like that, the rotors with my say, one or two, or even three of these things.

And they're attractive, they they satisfy people's taste. The ones in the commercial sector are basically playing to their strengths. I guess trying to figure out a way to sell products that people want that. That's that that's our system. And its the system is born in part on two. Notions one is there's a belief that we have to have good quality protein, that's wrong. We are all the protein we need from Whole plants. That's one problem. The other problem is that people think that okay. You don't want

Animal food. So it is manufactured products, but what they end up doing, is eating a lot of kind of junk food in the middle aisles or grocery store that are, as I say, they're loaded up with salt sugar and fat because that's what people like. And so there's a lot of distortion. Your question is a good one. Is it a lot of distortion in this business, you know, about this? And if I could summarize, it somehow simply, if I can, we tend to focus on one thing at a time and we make special story.

He's about it. You know, this product is good because of this new trend of whatever we tend to think of one thing at a time that's called from reductionism is science or focus focus, focus. That's not their system. We want the system to makes human health. You just eating food, you know, as I say plants, you know, 8 and all the contents same time, which I call whole. I'm not sure, that's the best word I can. So I end up with this concept Whole Food plant-based. I think there's a little bit better. I would argue then let's say vegetarian with big Innocent, but still

The message is fairly simple and moment as the same message for different people. In the world. We can keep the ethnic Cuisines. That's another tractor idea thing, ethnic Cuisines, whether we're talking about Chinese voters, Japanese food or Mexican food, whatever they all have their own flavors, that word right. There flavors is what distinguishes them every ethnic group or society and World tend to have their own herbs and spices and flavors, and make the food that way. Sometimes our own special foods and

And as long as our plants everything's Dandy so we can keep all those ethnic Cuisines. Have a lot of variety. What you're all. Like there's still, you know, get the same Health, whichever path where we would take. So the idea is really quite simple if in the science that's a little different story. I mean to really understand the science and its fullest form, you kind of have to get into the topic of study. It is throwing some depth and participate in that kind of thing. The science is really sound. I had to completely do 180.

Return my family. But yes, we were raising. I was raised on a farm, meat milk and eggs as milking cows. And so when I started seeing the first evidence that kind of questioning that I was faced with the proposition. Do I accept my biases and just go with it like everybody to do, we just go along that track or start doing some research, the more research we did this about was wrong and we got something out of it that nobody knows pretty terrific. It was in live longer, you know, without all them. And the medications is stuff like

That we can solve a lot of problems in the world at the same time. It's a grand message. Maybe I can say that all-encompassing grand

message. And can you give a little bit of detail? You've mentioned several times that you discovered these things about animal protein, particularly in relating to disease. I'm familiar with it. And a lot of people who are in the plant-based base or familiar with it, but I like to have a rundown of the things that stood out the most to you that made you really change your

mind once the protein first off. I'm

And when I was responsible for that program in the Philippines feeding malnourished children, we were supposed to be making sure that you know, protein and we'll base Apostle because that's so-called high quality. You know, I'm sorry can wonder about the time but then we found out that it needs our experimental animal data. Supported by human observation is I must tell you. But nonetheless, it was just brutal. Animal data. These animals getting cancer. For example, if we increase the consumption of animal protein, that cancer.

ER got turned on very quickly and it's very strongly. If we took the animal protein and replace it with plant protein or we decrease the consumption of animal protein. We turned it off. Will you turn on and turn off cancer, just like that? That traumatic, you know, animal protein, causing cancer. I mean, that's, that's ridiculous. It's very sensitive topic, but that's what it was. And so then when I got into, I started realizing true that nutrition is not about one nutrient doing this out of scum.

Else is not about one mechanism to account for its effect. It's actually accounted for by our infinite collection of all kinds of nutrients all working together. It's marvelous, you know, and I get excited about this concept of Hope being the best way. I think I can explain that. You know it with the image for maybe four people are not the science. We got like a hundred trillion cells in our body. We can't even see him. Let's try myself yet. Each one of us like the universe.

And they all these nutrients come in, and the mother nature, decides, which one she wants two years, which was not, and they start working together to create a response. It's a good nutrients, you know that they make for health. That's the default position and these nutrients all shift in your direction together, even though they're all very different sometimes. One of them does this one because that was they all shift together in the best image. I have in mind is the flock of birds.

Or school of fish. You when you watch a flock of birds are flying along and and maybe a hundred thousand or something in a blog and they shift distress and instantaneously without have to sort of wonder. Who's the commander here. Well, somehow, that's the danger. That's the way things work. That's the way I see nutrients working inside of these cells. Same thing all the nutrients from plant Foods, even though they have different functions and things like that different chemical properties when they're there and over.

Like mind in a sense that is from Plants. They actually prevent and even reverse diseases, like heart disease, and diabetes, and many cases cancer. That's amazing. So, the philosophical basis for Understanding Nutrition is in my view very different than what it was. When I first started in the way. I actually did my own research. I lost sight of the question. I get going down this track here in a different directions. I didn't answer your question. I don't think today.

So yeah, I think it gives me an idea of how your thoughts tracked. I mean you've gone through so much and done so much research. I can only imagine just a little bit of it. I can just enough understand scientific study language to do some reading on my own and dig into it a little bit. And I can only imagine for me. It's just a tip of the iceberg. So you mentioned all the nutrients from Plants working together. Would you say also that as far as you've seen in your research and maybe seeing another things that have come out that there may be a similar thing going on as far as

animal products are concerned because when people talk about animal proteins, some people will counter and say, no, it's not the protein. It's the saturated fat. No, it's not, that it's something else. What would you say on that one?

Yes, that's absolutely right. I mean, the thing we do hear about more or less is a saturated fat, which is mostly in animal Foods. We see a relationship between in saturated fat consumption. For example were saying colon cancer at that. Pretty clear looking back. And I got really somewhat familiar with the history we blame.

Saturated fat for that effect. When in fact, it was nothing more than a surrogate marker of animal protein, consumption. Another study. I can say along those lines. It was shown for example, that skim milk. No fat, low fat milk is very tightly. Coupled with prostate cancer in men, you look at different countries, different prostate cancer, the higher, the consumption of less a low-fat milk, the higher, the consumption prostate cancer. So, oh, then they say, well, it's milk.

Noah case is saturated fat and all those cases, beautiful data. It turns out that the researchers who were involved in that kind of research were reluctant to ever even suggest that it might be animal protein is not that was the animal protein. All by itself, that causes the problem, but it's hard to love for that idea. It's our belief, almost our worship of that protein that portal as hot in some years cause us to eat animals to get the

Voting milk, meat and eggs. I mean, everybody's heard. I heard that from the time I was on a farm. You have to eat these Foods here, that really important because we have to have that protein. But my point is, no, that's not true. It's the protein is much better obtained. From plants. When we have that desire to have animal protein. We eat animal foods, of course, in the process. We eat less plant foods, that combination more and more food, less platforms. That really is a ticket for destruction or a really, really difficult.

Propositions. And it was a lot of other things going on. So through the years and science. They didn't want to talk about animal protein, be responsible for heart disease or cancer. If you of whatever, they found something else to blame it on they blamed on skim milk or they blamed it on should actually fat. Or they blame going to cholesterol Crush was only present animal Foods. So you get all these other ideas of other factors are involved in a lot of those cases. Those other factors. Actually don't do that at all. So we

We have to ignore it, brought back to look at the bigger picture and we get a better impression of what's going on. It's really just a simply eating animal food. We need the protein that causes the problems of up in and of itself really serious problems. But in the process, we also, by doing that, we decrease the consumption of plant foods, which have all the good antioxidants and dietary fiber and stuff like that. That combination is not good.

So I'm hearing it's the dietary pattern that we really need to shift. Flip it on its head, and eat Farm.

More of what we're not eating enough of I was going to say in the western world, but I'd say now it's kind of going global.

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I've spent a lot of time on International work and we did this big project in China with their colleagues. There, that wasn't very large comprehensive project and I can see the Chinese. I saw that in motion. I was in China about 25 times over M times over the years. They had a long history of use and basically plants if you will for the most part, even hears it from

Decimals, that's what the goal hurts. And so that was a Chinese tradition. And but then they got fascinated about the time. I was there, my our project of China was the first project between the United States and China actually, so I was kind of on the ground level seeing a change and they've gotten now get much more interested in this. In fact, they've organized just this year is a third lifestyle conference, International lifestyle, Congress, and they've asked me to be the keynote speaker.

Before now again and I can sell, one of those. Are you suggesting to them? Hey, you, you know, you're older ideas weren't so bad after all. They tended to want to take everything Western. So they let McDonald's in and Kentucky Fried Chicken and you know, all this sort of stuff. So it was understandable, they want they want to have a, you know, a chance to have what we have is in a sense. It's fair enough, but the lecture that I gave him China to some of my colleges that why do you take

Works products and not take our better products. Have a look at your own style, your own enough food, and we in turn can learn from that. So I see the same thing in India to India is Shifting to get money. One of the first things we want to do is start eating animals. Eat me and you're quite right. There is a shift in the dietary. The dice of some of these countries have previously had been mostly plant-based. That's kind of sad because that what that means were we're having to raise a lot more livestock.

And the amount of livestock has to be raised going up. What does that mean up? Tear down? Forests deforestation pruning environment. The whole nine yards just to have access to that food. Yeah. I'd like to one time to. I could need it now, but you know, I do really fully understand the desire that people get. They think that they have to have it for the most part because they got to have that Protein. That's where they that's one of the Fatal faults in a thinking more protein makes more chance.

Makes my heart disease in that kind of diet, makes more diabetes, chronic kidney disease, all of it. So we go down that path. Keep on, going down, down, down that path, getting those diseases and then think we're going to fix them by getting some drugs, some place and then dying sooner, you know, life expectancy. United States is going down. You're all just 35 countries. What so-called Western countries in the world. They'll just 35 countries on the western diet more or less. We are number one.

In the use of pharmaceuticals. They number one per capita, use of pharmaceuticals. Number one. We are number one in the cost of health care. We're number three, in prevalence of obesity. And of course Pharmaceuticals, they have side effects. The number of deaths arising from our use of pharmaceuticals, is actually the fourth leading cause of death in this country. If you count wrong with position errors that come along with it. It's the third leading cause of death. Something's gone wrong.

We've really gone down this path of eating, whatever we feel like eating we get sick. And so we figure all. Well, can we expect this one to be pushed to fix us know? Those trucks? They are side effects. All of them do and we die sooner. That's the formula somehow. I think we're about to wake up.

I would agree. I would really agree. Definitely, on, waking up. I'd wanted to ask you this question, which I asked a lot of the guest on the podcast, in light of all the stuff you've been talking about. And as we mentioned,

A little earlier with the plant based movement going kind of away, from what plant they should be. Where do you think we really need to be focusing next? Particularly in our whole future of food landscape since food from everything you're saying and I firmly believe is the Crux of the solution to all these issues.

Yeah. Absolutely. You framed really quite well, I was involved in, as I said before, intensively involved in National policy development and one point I held the position of the principal

Is on what the US Congress for the medical community. That was about a hundred thousand scientists know Stace. So I was really, you know, they are where they try to decisions are made and I would suggest and to answer your question. We need to change the arrangement by which we make dietary guideline recommendations for one. That's why. But the main thing is, we've got to just simply include nutrition as a concept. Allow it to be told you right now. There's a lot of pushback come from the policy of

Activists don't talk about plant-based diets. They act like it's a strange thing. We're kind of nerdy to use the word euro per your program. Somehow. We're kind of strange. We say the kind of thing. You know, this is where the hell else. Is there. Such as where the money is, I'm talking about. Where the hell did we got to change that? That narrative that discussion? We got to tell the truth and that comes out in the form of dr. Guidelines, and other kinds of Health guidelines. Health doesn't come from the end of a needle for from until it comes in the food, we put in our mouth.

It has to be very simple. And then until we've got a really structured. It's not much that the way we produce the food. We subsidize the production of food. We don't need to eat. So, hope there's no question concerned. Food subsidies is misguided. We're putting taxpayer money into producing wrong food. So more of us get sick. So we have more patience and then we be the medical system. It says it's a circular nasty idea. So I think we got to go to the public and I'm glad

You have you're doing what you're doing because this really what it comes down to, we got it sent a message a the science is real. It's real reason that people are confusion because looking too much of the details and and the people work on the details, the one making money on them. Let's simplify it ate plants. Try to impose kicked out and keep the message. Simple. That's one thing and then secondly make sure doctors get trained in this area. That's a biggie. Doctors don't understand.

They're all trained to be using drugs and usually reductions approach for to make us. Well, that's their business. I think we can make our own business. You make their own health. We don't have to do that. I'm not anti drug, by the way. I know George should be useful. That's not the issue, but we don't need think of them as the crutch for entire lifestyle makes no sense. That's not a lifestyle and so glad to change the public narrative. That means people at the time.

Top have have to stop. There are sort of proactive stance against this idea. And that's what's going on. I've seen it, you know, at the policy level you can see leading. Politicians are. Oh, no, not yet. It wasn't here. He here at you. You're talking to me. Yes, the system that's going to change the publisher. Otherwise, I'm still no, I want the truth. I mean, the same thing is true right now. In the current pandemic, I would argue the most recent issue that we've had and right in front of us and last

Years is bittering, pretty horrific, you know, all the costs that we the jokes who had to jump through, just, you know, accommodate that problem and we end up having to rely. So the story goes on drugs. They don't want to mention the fact that, you know, these viruses, they do what they do. Because we don't have a very good immune system to counteract them, but we don't have a good immune system. For the same reason that we have a lot of heart disease. The same reason, we have a lot of diabetes, the same reason we are

A lot of obesity and cancer because nutrition when people eating that and getting the right Health, their immune system is far stronger. And I published a paper on this. Are just Pat just earlier this year and what it can do with the. Number one, virus disease in the world. It's amazing consuming. A more plant-based diet, actually builds. The immune system won't most better than anything. And that immune system is what handles pathogens like bacteria.

Fungi or viruses have do well or new cancer cells. This story is is critical. It's really critical for public knowledge. As always got to have the people at the top, sort of if they want to disagree with. Okay, disagree with, but come out and stand on the stage right in front of the public and they've been there proposition. Here was someone like myself are members of school. No, this year area. Let's hope, let's go toe-to-toe on this.

Let's display to the public. You know, what is the information that almost too? So much that will never happen there. They don't want that kind of information. It's against their economic interest. So why I tend to be a nerd

Glide on your program.

I always enjoy having people on that. I can nerd out with. It's always enjoyable. I think you started answering this question. But this is one, I usually ask towards the end of the interview. It's kind of a question where you get to dream a little bit and think about what really is possible in making some of these changes, if you had unlimited power and unlimited resources at your disposal and you could bring about one change in our modern food system. What would you do?

Stop subsidizing the food producing the wrong food. I think that's first number one. Number two. You said I got number two. We got to actually teach the children in schools. One of my former students who mid-career actually, she's your back into door doctorate. Now. She and her daughter are actually doing amazing jobs working in public schools, you know, little kids are very educated, but we know that we all knew that and she wouldn't hurt her work and sharing those words, they work with these kids and they kiss just get

Just about this. They because they talk about it in terms of, hey there, you have to kill this animal to eat that eat that make so far as he just turned ten and necessary to learn that and we should talk about it and they she does it in a sense of talking about coming from different countries, have all the different kinds of people, you know, diets and so, you know, they learn something about the world and they are teaching kids. That's the second thing. And then the third thing is we are subsidizing the pharmaceutical industry. That is the most powerful industry, I believe.