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Now it seems I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton. Well, hello boys and girls ladies and germs tease that out. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show and this episode. I'm very excited to announce is an experimental format as per usual. I will be
constructing in some fashion world-class performers to tease out the habits routines Frameworks Etc that you can use in your own lives. And my guest today is a guest who's very relevant for me personally right now Greg McEwen and he is relevant because he is easily one of my favorite thinkers on all things related to Effectiveness efficiency and at the end of the day quality of life and keeping your priority or
Ortiz top of mind so that you are laser-focused to do what really matters the high leverage things which are sometimes the small things done with Relentless Focus that deliver incredibly incredibly important outcomes. So let's get to it. This is a walk and talk with Greg McEwen and overall. It is about how to find your purpose and master essentialism in 2024 or in the New Year. If you're listening to this later and the walk and talk format is something I
I need to experiment with because let's face it most of us sit too much and if we consider sitting the new smoking on some level with its Health implications, and I want to give credit to Kelly Starrett who is also a multiple Time Podcast guest for I believe coining that expression. We should get out and walk more part of what makes us human part of what enabled our brains to become these incredible machines. They have become true power done less electricity than a light bulb by the way is walking the fact that we
Ambulate the fact that we walk historically much of the day and I wanted to also contend with some back issues that I have that are exacerbated by extended sitting and many different health issues are correlated to extend it sitting so this is a direct oppositional approach to perhaps the YouTube build TV show approach, which is this is Audio Only and when I'm recording this I am out.
Out walking. I have a high fidelity headset on and Greg is doing the same. We are doing something good for our bodies while we were having a fun and productive conversation and my suggestion to everyone listening is if you can do a walk and listen, there is no reason for you to be parked in front of a laptop watching a video contributing to your own physical demise hour by hour if you can be out walking around listening
Into this also doing something good for your body and therefore for your entire life. So get out try a walk and listen while we walk and talk you can be part of the conversation and that's enough Preamble on the format. But I really feel strongly that this is something I'm going to do more of I love to doing it and my hope is that you will join us in walking more. It is the cure-all for so many things Greg McEwen. Who is he you can find them on Twitter at
Gregory McEwan spelled MC ke o WN Greg is the author of two New York Times bestsellers Mega bestsellers essentialism the disciplined pursuit of less, which is a book. I've read many times and then I've reread my Kindle highlights probably 15 20 times and his second book effortless subtitle make it easier to do what matters most together. They've sold more than 2 million copies and 37 languages. He's also a speaker.
Host of the Greg McHugh and podcast and founder of the essentialism Academy with students from 96 countries more than 175,000 people have also signed up to his one minute Wednesday newsletter. He is currently doing a doctorate at the University of Cambridge and he is as I mentioned easily one of my favorite thinkers on many many many many many different areas and he is intensely practical originally from London England Greg and his wife Anna our parents to four children. You can find everything Greg at
Greg McEwen.com and without further Ado, please enjoy, hopefully while you were in motion this wide-ranging conversation with Gregg McEwen.
Happy New Year. Happy New Year to you. You feeling good about the New Year. How are you feeling about this year? I'm feeling great about the New Year. I'm feeling really outstanding about the New Year actually in my realization on New Year's Eve has I was doing an inventory was that despite my predilection to self flagellate and always look for the black lining on the beautiful Cloud that
20:23 was a great year. I did a lot of things right. I did a lot of things that were uncomfortable and overall feel really good about it. So my overall feeling is do more of that keep going which is unusual as a realization or maybe just a framing for New Year's Eve. So I feel really good about 2024 and of course the these texts that kicked this whole experimental walk and Talk podcast off people have no
just in case we use this yet. I am walking around with multiple corms of audio recording attached to my head and my hips and I am really appreciating the combination of locomotions and conversation and you had sent me a text which was very simple at least it face value, which is what is her top goal of 2024, and I thought to myself that's a damn good question and I would like to hear your answer at least explore it with
And here we are. So how are you feeling about 2024 the way I'd been thinking about it myself is just what is the number one highest priority for the year. So normally I'm not even thinking about it necessarily like a goal because that itself can be constraining could you say that we're adding one more time? So I make sure it sticks in. What is the number one highest priority for the year. That's not very different than
Where I worded it when I texted you, but it just means a little different than just. Okay. Well, you've got all these existing goals. What's the next book? How do you get the podcast to the next level? Like it's saying look bigger picture than that it back look at your whole life from the broadest possible perspective and get connected to that like something like, okay. What do you understand the purpose of like to be and therefore what is
In right now, you know, if you got to the end of your life and you didn't do something differently this year what might you regret just a couple of months ago. I dropped off my daughter Eve who you and I have talked about before she was the one that got really sick and we dropped her off. So she is healthy again. She is well again, she's really done well and I was dropping her off for a mission. So she's gone to Brazil for a year and a half and I thought dropping off will just be like this really happy thing because I thought
not happy about it. And she did in the whole family did is just as great thing and she's going to manaus which is in the middle of the Brazilian Rainforest, which she also loves a I know where that is. Yeah. It's all good. It was she's learning Portuguese, but she just like everything was working good about it, but about 10 minutes before I drop her off.
I just have this awful feeling just not not like oh this is bad. This is wrong. But I suddenly just feel grief and and strong emotions and I can see I can sort of see her whole life to this moment flashing before my eyes and I have I don't know something the language. I've given to the experience with something like a micro essentialist Judgement Day or something like that. Well, I guess what does that mean?
Well, it means like did you miss it? Did you miss her life? Will you therefore it Like a Ghost of Christmas Past type? Yeah. Yeah just socialist review. Yes, just like a Christmas carol type experience in micro version of it because it's done, you know, like there's course. Of course, there's a role to be played in her life, you know forever, but that phase is done and so like whatever I feel in this moment, that's it. I the moment has gone and I'm just now
Acting on it. And in that moment, I did sort of come to this Awakening of like no, I I was I was there for it more than I wasn't we travel together. We did things together. We've made all these memories I relationship and that can safe safely attached. But I also learned in that moment like goodness. This life is so pathetic sure. What and I learned also in that moment. It's not divided between 1X 2x 3x activities, you know on an important scale. It's like 1 x 10 x 1000 x and this was an
1000x relationship and did I live it? Like that was reality that is reality. But it I understand that in the moment. I mean that's fairly dramatic way to answer your question, but it's like that's the perspective that I was reflecting on as I was thinking about. Okay. Therefore is all of those perspectives are the true perspective that approximates reality. How do I think about where to put my time and energy between
24 when there's so many good things you could be doing and so many things that will act upon me good things that will act upon me that would consume the whole year easily. You know, what what's missing? What do I need to do differently and an answer did come to me but to that's some of how I've been thinking about it.
So it sounds like from hearing you correctly and please subscribe me if I'm wrong that the way you're thinking about 20 24 hour was informed by this realization / reinforcement that as we think about different priorities different relationships. They're not incrementally different right they are in many cases of exponentially different where you have like a 1x as you put it I think got a 1x or 2x versus like hundred X thousand X right in terms of importance. So you have that fair.
Well with your daughter sending her off to manaus right? I've always wanted to visit but that's a separate story. So where do you go from there? Right because people have these realizations. Maybe they go I have no idea. They go on a rafting trip with friends. They think themselves. Oh my God, this is so nourishing. I deep in my relationships with three of my most cherished friends and I need to do more of this but then it like sand through the fingers slips away as they re-enter their daily lives and that's kind of it.
It things get busy things get crowded out. So what do you do or where did you do or what are you doing after you have that realization? Let me answer this in the conceptual wait for all right, like why have all sorts of limitations that make Focus challenging that make prioritization challenging that make relationships challenging and all of us have our own mix of literally I DNA can predispose us to various weaknesses. And so
The key for me. He seems to have been.
I have to build I mean the word gets overused I build a system that's equal to that challenge. And so I have like a paper out of I built and designed myself and keep adapting all the time. As soon as I learn. Oh, that's kind of a weakness for me. I build something in at all that that's a tendency to where I make trade-offs that not pleased with later I build something in so that it acts on me. And this really is the whole idea of effortless right like effortless execution is I don't want to trust
my weaknesses
I want to build a system. That means my weaknesses become something like a relevant. That's what I'm trying to build. So one of those things like I mean literally physically my take it with me everywhere. My personalized plan. I take everywhere literally everywhere I go I will have it and so in it I have the key relationships of my life, right? And that for me is very simple. That's my wife Anna Hazard for children. They are the Thousand exes.
In my life, and then there is a select group of friends. And then there's a much broader group of people that I also in building relationships and making sure I'm checking in on the really matter to me if I fail in those relationships, then probably everything's probably okay. But but if I fail in my relationship with the Thousand X's, it's like no nothing's okay you like when my wife Anna like let me use that as an example if Missin an old saying but it's like if things are bad in your marriage.
Ridge it doesn't matter how good anything else is nothing's good. And if everything's good in your marriage like it doesn't matter how bad everything else is. Everything is everything is good. It's like this is so disproportionately important. And so I don't think I can separate my answer to your question without saying yeah, it's actually The Establishment building of this family. That means there is a permanent system in place to help me remember what matters and who matters. When do you
We'll revisit that in other words if you're carrying this with you everywhere and it seems like and again I'll just I'll add in my thoughts and then you can refine as we go but it seems like unlike a lot of folks and this would include me who probably start with what should I do? Right? What should my priorities be seems like you are starting with KU. And if you have this constant reminder which acts as a system, I'm wondering how you use that system right? Because I think about my phone. I have 1 million.
And three hundred and seventy nine thousand making that up notes on my phone. Oh my God, this is so important. I'm definitely gonna come back and read this and 99% of the time I never look at it again. So how do you use this list of people the way that my binder works? Like the first section is all about Direction sort of let's say essential intent for my whole life, like what really really matters it's extinct as possible. It's a few pages in total. That's always
Place to begin right because I want to come back and get centered in. What I have come to learn is closest approximation to the purpose of it all and I literally have to come back to it. Right like you've heard the metaphor before but you know, the idea of a flight is off track 90% of the time like an airplane literally only gets to where it's supposed to get two at the time. It's supposed to get there because it readjusts constantly along the way and and I feel like that myself so like for example I do
Don't think that I'm better at being an essentialist than anybody else. I think if there's any advantage I've had in that journey is that I just really admit. I'm a non-essential list easily. And so it's this idea like there's only two kinds of people in the world. There are people who are lost in there are people who know they are lost. It's like I know how easy it is bleeding. Never heard that that's good. I'm looking that definitely I will look properly at those few pages once a week right like every Sunday morning.
I will look through that. I will read through it all online datings that's in your calendars. Yeah, Sunday morning. That's right. And but but then at other times through the week if I feel that sensation, I know people feel this, you know, that just sort of feels a bit crazy. It's feeling just a bit frenetic in front like what I just texted him yesterday like Matt and in the morning, I'm like man, I just feel so lost and I don't mean for the last six months. I mean for the last half hour what is going on.
Feel so lost right now. Okay. That's right. That's the signal go back get centered. Take a moment. What really is the intent what matters in your life? Okay. Now from that, you know, then you start designing your day and I have some thought specifically about that. But you know, you're asking the year process. I guess we are asking my system. So that's once a week. Okay. So for per day, let's get to that so I've come to call this the 123 method.
I do not do it every day, man. I wish I was doing it every day, but I do it more often than I don't do it and it's simply this and it has to be written down for me and paper and Pen like not in technology free of technology and I try now more often than not to have this power half an hour right like where I don't go to text an email or apps or my phone for the first 30 minutes.
And I do that haven't been doing great at that recently, but I still do that more often than I don't and so in that then instead of doing that. I'm in my planner and I'm literally writing. Hey, what's the essential for today was the one most essential today most important person most important action for that person. Number two is a great two things that are essential but urgent that's like, you know could be all sorts of things any, you know, whatever's got a deadline on it finish this writing assignment.
By this deadline, it could be finished these Financial things for you know, retirement documentation stuff. Like I don't really want to get to but I know it's important and there's a deadline and then the third thing is three things that are maintenance items, right? So that's just an act that's anything that if I don't do it it's not important today, but if I don't do it, it will make life a lot harder later. It's like an effortless strategy. And so that's the one two three method right one Central to things that essentially urgent tree maintenance items.
Would you mind Greg giving me just some concrete examples so we can visualize what this looks like. They don't have to be real. I mean, they could be hypothetical. But just to give an example of what a 1-2-3 might look like. I'm just sort of talk through as I talked to her yesterday. So yesterday I was in California in LA or an event as doing a keynote. I had my eldest daughter Grace with me. So the when I was tested
I know like oh man. I'm just kind of feeling a bit lost after I express that I was like, okay get focused. What is the essential for today? The number one thing? Oh, it's Grace's. Here's my relationship with Grace and need to make sure that we connect today that we're not just with each other all day. Like I tried to travel with one of my children that 80% of the time for Keynotes and and so that's built into the system, but you still have to be present and connected. And so that was the priority the two things that are essential and
Urgent right like one of them the keynote right that's coming up and I don't really know how to phone it in on a keynote and I certainly fear phoning it in because it's like such an opportunity missed the thing is coming like that that moment will arrive in you going to be on stage and it was for those 500 people. It's non-trivial event and all the senior leaders of the organization and that was one of the key urgent tasks and then the next urgent task was to do with some family.
To a I won't get into the precise details of it but there's some health challenges involved. So I've sort of taken it upon myself to say. Okay, how could I maybe kind of be a little bit of a coach which is not really the natural relationship I have with them, but I'm risking it because I think it really matters and they seem to have responded really positively and so I wanted to keep that going that would be the next thing and then of course maintenance items from their maintenance items literally included was in Florida the couple of
days before California. So like literally I have to unpack everything put everything back in its place make sure that that's just in order so that you don't get behind on those things. I needed to respond to a tea email about a contract that we've been in ago she ation with over the last couple of months that would be an item of Maintenance. So whether you're talking about the few pages that you would review on Sunday mornings, yeah, what would be an example of something from those few pages? Because I feel like this would be very helpful for me in this.
That I feel like I am pretty good at staying on task. I'm pretty good at keeping the important things in mind and majoring in the major things. However, there are certainly times when and weeks when I get a little lost and end up doing a lot of minor things and at the end of the week couldn't really point to what I've achieved what might be some examples from those few pages. If you don't mind sharing I have two pages the beginning that
I don't share any web. It's very carefully worded the highest expression of what I think the fullest manifestation of my life can be. It's not goals. It's beyond that it's like who you can be what your most important relationships can look like and and it's sacred right? Like that's how I feel about that. And so that's what the most important Centre in part of it because
Literally, if you don't get clear on that nothing else matters in the system, right? If you execute superbly on things that end up not being what your life needed to be about and it doesn't matter efficiently doing what should not be done at all the courses like it's a form of Madness right? Like it's you speedily going the wrong direction. So from that I've identified. Let's say five or six roles in a gold that goes with each of those roles.
And so my worldview includes the idea that that I'm a Child of God that you're a child of God. So one of the most unbelievable things to me are one of the benefits of my church membership is that every person who wants one is a member of the Church of Jesus. Christ of Latter-day Saints can have a specific blessing that somebody gives you personally to you that nobody else ever gets to read and it's like we literally think about it, not me.
Berkeley like it's like literal scripture for you and no two are the same. I've only ever read mine Anna's the children's and my grandfather who died and grandmother who died because you can read your ancestors once they've passed away and my grandfather gave it to me. He was a patriot every thousand people is makes up what's called a steak and every steak has a stake patriarch. And the only thing they do is give these patriarchal blessings that the only blessings through recorded and this is like whenever I think
Think about what it is. I'm just like oh my goodness. How would you go about thinking about life without this document? Because this is like eyes and specific revelatory insight into who you are who you were before you came the you are here watching possible what it relationships are going to matter what weaknesses to think about and it's like this is the centering Dot and so a version of this when Stephen covey's talking about. Hey, we need to create a mission statement for your life and Company in short he is
Scribing let's say something like a watered down version of what he's actually using everyday. I see I see I see so this was adapted sort of a secular version of The Blessing effectively. Yeah, and if you want the kind of language he used for this so we think of life after this is as having not heaven and hell but like a series of Heavens, let's say something like it so different kingdoms are Celestial Kingdom of terrestrial and Celestial like
tribe sun moon and stars. And so he said to me once he said look I think about my work professionally as a terrestrial Mission. It's like I'm trying to bring a certain amount of light like the light of the moon but there's this whole other light as way brighter. How long is your blessing is it two pages long or is like two to three pages? Wow, guess who really gets really covers a lot? Yes, and it's a different range. I mean, some people could be as short as half a page. But I remember meeting somebody had one that was eight and nine pages and it really does.
Massive because what it is is a portal what I just described what a portal all reading every book is potentially a portal, right? It takes you to a different time and place and that's what make you know fiction especially so powerful you suddenly experience this whole other world, but I really think that that's a way of thinking about scripture that isn't obvious to most people even people that sometimes I like reading scripture all the time. It's not a words. It just opens up the
You so like I've read let's say I've read my page reimbursing. Like I don't know like say let's say it's five hundred times or something is probably more but two weeks ago when I read it suddenly a phrase away that it's phrase suddenly opened up to me and I was like, oh my goodness. I bet that means that and it's like it doesn't matter the words are just the vehicle and it's as soon as I'm ready to like understand something more that suddenly the particular word is Oak. However, that sounds I don't know how it goes. Cause nobody else has to believe or
You're see it the way I do but like it's a fact that is an experiential fact that that is what happens over these years. I got it when I was 13. So whatever I've had it for you no more than 30 years. And even now I'm like that's it means in this is what I need to do differently in my life are that's where my weakness lies and how I need to improve and and so this is a very entry tool to guide all of life and I ain't think I think yeah, that's difference. We
That and trying to read 200 self-help books or all in some sense regurgitating the same set of potentially terrestrial ideas. It's like this document to me helps. It's like Esther than me. It's better than my what I'm trying to figure out a higher set of thinking one me and Trent, you know, it's self-transcendent rather than about self-actualization and it's not me setting a ball for me and I'm going to achieve it. It's oh man. I'm going the wrong direction.
This is what I'm supposed to do and the whole idea for example, the Biblical term repent. It was translated from a Greek word. That doesn't really mean what people think of when they hear the word repent what it means it comes from that's an Ayah. It means be like yourself why God everything through new eyes. And is that your new eyes and new breath and seeing that isn't that newness of site that is what the goal is right? And so the repentance
It isn't about shame. It's about let go of the old thinking so that there's something new and better and is higher we've talked about before the idea of light and it's lighter and lighter and lighter tool, you know, eventually you some perfect and the future but it's like more like producers more like and it's long as we're following that light it gives us more and more and bring this net bag that you re s like. I see you doing this in your life. I see it, you know when it's happening because
You feel more light and you know when it's not happening just like I do because I'm like, yeah, I feel myself. I'm being pulled into the not way from the good into I wanta I have a goal now when I'm doing Keynotes, it's probably not the most ignored but I like I really wanted to work out how yet standing ovations. It hadn't been my journey hasn't been my story. I get great feedback. It really well, but not standing ovations and I'm like man, what are you doing it? And so like I feel like I should know how to do that now and in so that just happens and then they
Yes, it was really just a different because they had everyone read the books ahead of time. And so for the first time it never happened before I walk out on the stage and that they gave us the Innovation at the beginning and I've never I've seen it happen to others but it never happened to me before ever and I thought you know, like in that moment. I give you the really just the whole conversation was enriching and good and it like I was doing the right thing and it made a difference to people and all of that, but imagine if you just a living in that breathing that in.
Day, you can only track of your way so easily and there's a risk of that right as we were to that for me. There's a risk of that for you. There's a risk of that for anyone in a certain consumed weird log into it got I could put bro culture. That's what I would call it where we're just consumed with a certain set of ideas and a certain set of what winning looks like was just consumed by groupthink, right or sort of group Trend right or whatever the success du jour happens to be maybe that's going viral on Tick-Tock. Whatever the hell
The shifting Sands of supposed favor and adulation appear to be right well and you just named it right like the shifting Sands like in my lifetime in the last I don't know. If is it as short as five years in the last 10 years. I feel like what success means has changed in some ways and not in a good way like in a shallow away and in are you mean in general in the world? So I look at and I go I go. Yeah, I
I don't even want these things that are being being talked about the answers, you know influence. I've never even heard of they didn't it won't influence busy years ago. And now they're saying this is what to do in life. And this is how to be and I'm like, it's just feels like a bad 1980s motivational speaker or something like that. Right? And I'm like, I think I could get really lost if I pursued all of this shifting Sands as you describe it.
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Let me come back to you the blessing in the two pages if you don't mind because I'm really grateful that you brought this up and it resonates very deeply for me because I actually use different types of poetry for this but the pages change which has some upside I would imagine but also some downsides some downsides, but if you are.
Looking at say is I've is I might the Poetry of hafez or other the generally Mystics. I don't need to be from the Islamic Traditions. They could be from any tradition, but they resonate a lot with my lived and felt experience for a multitude of reasons. So I will flip to a random page and that is the page right that is the page that I use as the mirror. So to speak or the lens through which I look at my life or whatever. I'm contemplating the goals the troubles whatever it might be and
It's incredibly helpful as a way to grease the skids to get unstuck. Right because if you're in a pattern of thinking that has not solved whatever puzzle you're trying to solve then oftentimes more thinking of the same kind as not going to do a hell of a lot. So having this type of jolt of novelty / unexpected in my case words is very helpful, but I do see the benefit of something more.
Comprehensive and more consistent. So maybe the life mission is one approach. I will say and this isn't something I've talked about that. I've been single as you may or may not know for the last year plus maybe a year and three months or something like that and I wrote down what I was looking for. I also asked my ex who I'm still very close with if she could write down what she thinks I need so that I could provide it to say potential Matchmaker or people who might want to
And what I found was that description of what I need certainly applies to a partner but applies to a lot more than a partner. So I found myself reading that said quite consistently and it applies to much more than I mean just isn't appropriate word. But just the partner piece it applies to so many other aspects so indirectly by accident on some level.
I've ended up also with some document that I read on a regular basis one of the not just popular now, but popular forever questions is okay, you know, like how do I meet the right person? You know, what would I want in that person and some questions you lose just by trying to answer them. So, okay the yeah, please say more because it's the wrong question, right? All right, and so you can get you know, people can spend years and years on a question like that.
So let's say a basic question is maybe not surprising. It's like, how can I be the right person? Who do I need to be and then that means that some point you attract people like to you and so the your probability of meeting somebody that actually is right person for you increases but that seems like what's happened to you like you say almost without design but it's like, oh actually that list looks a lot like what I need to be and how I need to
to orient myself in the world. So what the patriarchal blessing is to me is the highest possible ideal that I can have and so I think that that's the question for everybody's like given all the tools. We have all the insights we've ever heard all the best and highest wisdom that we have come across this bar. What's that highest ideal and to focus on it and two
Have mechanisms where you come back to that more often than not more days than you don't do that that becomes the guiding force if you life and and so I think that it probably is some process right now where you stay let's take s The Poetry of the best this list and I'm going to try and write down like a these are the things that it's not what I want its what is the highest truth I've ever come across.
Even if it's really inconvenient for me, what's the closest thing? I can articulate as to the purpose of my life and I do think that really without doing that when we don't do that. I don't know man. I don't even know what I'm doing when I don't do that. It's like I can respond to a lot of emails I can travel a lot I can I mean when I look back at 2023 I think and I did a lot of things and I just need to be really grateful for all those things but sometimes I'm like head
Do what really rats at the most in the whole year did you and I don't want that to be true for 2024 what comes to mind for me? Also. Actually, I haven't thought about this in a while but it was from a conversation. I had on the podcast with General Stanley McChrystal and I'm going to paraphrase here but said something along the lines and I've heard this elsewhere since but the purpose of life is to find the purpose of life something along those lines. And the reason that that came to mind is I would imagine just visualizing myself here.
That if you have something like the patriarchal blessing or four or five pieces of poetry so wild geese by Mary Oliver would probably be in in my short list as an example. If you have a handful of sayings. This is that you have decided even for a year even for just say the next year are going to be effectively your personal mission statement something like that directional documents. Yeah, your directional documents. Just having that directional.
I meant I would imagine gives you a certain peace of mind or ability to Exhale that makes it less likely that you're going to chase as many shiny objects is and get as easily distracted as you would. Otherwise. Does that make sense? Like just the act of gathering that and having that I see having an impact on your state and also your behavior above and beyond what it does when you check it each week. Does that make any sense? Does that tell you?
Yeah, of course. Yeah, because there's the Bell like you're lost in the woods. Do you have a compass or not? Like even if you haven't figured out how to get to where you're going like, do you have a compass or not? And if you have a compass is going to feel a hell of a lot better, even if you don't use this will show like literally I guess this is actually true that that if you is like a piece of research about this that people were given the task to walk in a straight line and they found that if they were in a Wilderness where there was no point that they could look too.
They literally walked in circles. I didn't know they were doing that. And so the only way to actually go forward is to pick something on the horizon. There's the mountain there's a thing I'm going to that and then you could walk in a straight line. And so that's those strange because that means that there's nothing inside of us that knows exactly where to go physically mean as true for me when I'm driving a day. That's absolutely sure. So I think that is beyond a goal. It's
It's what's the direction? What's it all about? I'm going to fix on that for a while. And then I'm going to drive to live that we can see how that goes. And whether that reveals another higher in sight, you know, so if while uses your poem of today, maybe in five years, there's a new poem that you go hon. That's a higher Truth for me. I'm going to hold onto that and walk towards that and see how it goes. So so yeah, I mean this could all sound after all two people right when they say, oh, yeah, but I just got to get on with the actions of today.
But men the risk of skipping this part of the process is you just go in circles for years and years as a big difference. I read this in a while ago is a big difference between 20 years of experience and the same year live 20 times that you don't learn the lessons because you just going in circles and you're just rushing rushing in and actually not getting closer to what the purpose of life really is. I have a question for you Greg, which is self-serving.
As a lot of my questions are as but it's keeps the personal that's my that's my that's my that's my pitch. So I imagine you've been exposed to thousands upon thousands of people not just through essentialism and your other books, but also through the church and your various communities and what I'm very curious to know is when you think about the people who come to my
And as secular, but who are good at in some fashion doing what you're describing. They could be what do they have in common as the question or it could just be the you think of one or two of these people? How do they approach this the wood that comes to mind? I'm worried. It might sound I don't know almost trivial because it's like oh, yeah, we will we know that word but it's like it's truth. It's like willingness to speak the truth.
Meaning not that they or any of us have some Monopoly on the truth. Obviously, we don't obviously truth is beyond us and our expression needs to be as close to what we understand that you to be as possible. Otherwise, it can't be corrected. We can't engage in proper communication with other people. I have a few thoughts about this one. I think that telling the truth it's like whatever the consequence is for telling the truth in the immediate moment.
It is the path to your best possible future that speaking the truth and listening to other people like as soon as you start speaking the truth, you start having truthful conversations with people and if you can do that in what I would describe as the spirit of Truth, which is different than just saying what you think is true. I think this and then it's like you you're trying to say the truth but in a spirit of truth, it's like am I doing this in the right Spirit of my just doing this to win the conversation? It's like there's a
swing it. Could you I understand winning the conversation as a description. But yeah, what would the antonym of that be in other words saying it in the spirit of Truth? What does that look like or feel like it means that the intent of the conversation is to discover together. What is really true not to make your point to win and so on right like so the intent of the conversation changes and so let's describe the absolute.
Of this the ideal of this is I am trying to speak the truth by the spirit of truth. That is that is soon as I've spoken at I'm open to being wrong and I'm open to not just being wrong, but I'm open to learning because like they you say something back to me and you go. Well, this is well. This is how I see this and hopefully me being true makes it easier for the person I'm talking to to be truthful. And so then they share something and I got wicked as I have not thought about that whale that makes me think of this and and so it's you are trying to say what you think is true.
But now let's see if we can expand the parameters of truth that we together can have previously like there's more truth is going to come out in this conversation. I think that's what the spirit of Truth looks like then the ideal. Of course is that when the other person's Speaks now, I want to make that safe so they can speak the truth to me. Whatever that is. Even if I don't really you don't want to hear it. So I now have to listen with the spirit of Truth. And so that comes the symbiotic communication.
I would say that most people have experienced it occasionally rarely, but they have experienced it because when you get into this kind of communication time should have evaporates and we're not worried so much about ourselves anymore how we're coming across who were not judging them. And so when it's just, you know, it's back to portal communicate. It's like and I think what I'm describing now has taken me a long time to understand this what articulate this but I think this is the one true way of communication was Anna Karenina, you know opened the brilliant line all unhappy family is unhappy
Happy in their own way and happy families are happy and one way there's like a single way of doing it, right and a thousand ways of doing it wrong. And I think that's communication to and I didn't know that until fairly recently, but I think that's right that every other form when we're trying to speak to impress or when we're trying to weasel out and responsibility. Right? Like I've done that in my own family, although yeah. Well, no, I meant to do it this way or I tried that way, you know defensive this isn't communication. I
What it is, I don't have a word for it. But it's it's anti communication. I think speaking with true the spirit of Truth listening in the spirit of truth that magic happens that in that you make each other better. Yeah, edify each other you you understand each other you can sort of rejoice in it. I mean I have to assume that you have had moments like on many moments of in podcast conversations when they're at their best is like it's beyond any agenda and so the people that I'm thinking of in my mind have the
Courage to speak the truth and that's non tribute and in my own life. I have to get better at it and Having the courage to do it whatever the consequence seems to be in the moment and then immediately opened myself up to what they're going to say because you'll surely bring a response from somebody else and have the risk it the real vulnerability. Hmm. Is there anything else that comes to mind? If you had to add something else to the answer of the question of what you see
In some of the secular examples to seem to really be able to travel The Road Less travelled in the way that we have been discussing it. Anything else come to mind. It doesn't have to be specific to any type of patriarchal blessing like document or Compass per se but just someone who is in general good at operating kind of top-down if that makes sense as opposed to like hear the thousand things that I could do in a reactive sense.
And then let me try to pick a handful of those as my priorities people who are very good at operating kind of top-down is husband wait to get out of the tread that I'm on about this because because what I'm learning is that I mean we've talked already about this idea of sort of the highest aspiration. You're looking towards something bigger than you self-transcending Maslow's hierarchy of needs right is wrong. It's wrong like Maslow said it was wrong and nobody updated the
Nation oh, I can't wait. This is this is new to me. Alright, so he said before he died before Maslow died hiro-chan final book in which he updated his model and just no one. I don't know why I don't know what was going on precisely but it just got ignored and some reason that model just as B is every single psychology book that's ever been written and it's everywhere everywhere the highest need of self-actualization and he changed that before he died to self Transcendence, but that's the highest ideal.
And my goodness that's a big difference. She was like, yeah, they don't even know that even similar species know that really not they really are different in kind self-actualization is like was I was briefly describing for his bro culture and maybe that's not a precise terminology, but it named something for me of of I guess just about you Greg McEwen looking like he wants to look really like he wants to feel getting what he likes to get. You know it.
More for me. Yeah, I mean it's individual achievement. Yes related to Chatman ethic and data shows that achievement ethic as a value has increased in society over the last few decades significantly more than any of the other let's say the other virtues and of course I think achievement is a virtue that the desire to achieve but it's a course just one of many and so tell Transcendence is kind of what we're talking about and it certainly leads me down this path of
Yes, it is about the relationships. It really really is about that because if you have a model of self-actualization and then you try to be in a relationship. Well, it's not going to work. That's a summary point. It is not going and it's not going to work because that's not what a relationship is. And by the way like this is big in my mind and when could I get the biggest Insight? That's that's come about in.
Ecology and in Psychotherapy over the last 50 years is this growing understanding of what a relationship is what love is and particularly the idea of safe attachment and the attachment Theory and so at risk of riffing too long on this subject. Let me just I got nowhere to go man. Okay, and actually Greg just just we don't lose track of one thing for people who may not be familiar with the term.
Self-transcendence, if you could just Define that at some point could be brief just two people have an idea and self-actualization. I think people probably can infer but self-transcendence. Okay. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to give me a go for the attachment stuff and I'll bring it back to so Transcendence. Okay one could ask a question. Like what is a relationship? What is love what makes a healthy strong resilient successful relationship over decades, right? Like what does what does that look like and to really non-trivial question, especially when one considers
For something like 50 years. We have been actually taught and the data now is increasingly showing that that is wrong so that really matters. But like what we've been taught first of all I go back with me who how people thought about raising children in like, you know, let's say 1910 1920 like this in England, right the center of the world probably still in terms of economic power and political power and so on and like what would the
perspective of that relationship and this is John baubie. He's in an inner upper class home. The gentleman's home. He's allowed to come and eat at the family dinner when he turns 11 or 12.
Just for dessert prior to that. He's not even allowed to eat dessert in his own family. And the reason is because there's this idea that children should be seen and not heard that if you were to show emotional connection with your child and an overly loving you're going to raise namby-pamby kids and they're not going to be stronger the world and so in that perspective the reason it's so non-trivial is that that defined policy and behavior in the broadest possible sense. So for example, if
If your child need to go to hospital like I mean like a two-year-old three-year-old you are going to drop your child off at the door. You will see them if you see them. You'll see them once a week for one hour and all of the nursing staff in the hospital will treat them also in this same regimented way non-emotional non-connected way. In fact, Bal be who is shipped off to boarding school. And so again, he's separated from his family of origin and connection and
Not safely attached to them. He didn't have that language yet. But that was it. I mean eventually he goes on this journey. He creates this documentary something like I don't remember any precise, but it's like a two-year-old goes to hospital maybe a three-year-old goes off. It's something like this and he videos the experience of this child and the separation anxiety that they experience and how terrifying it is for them to suddenly be in this Hospital unwell, you know don't know anybody and so on and they the creators video that video was almost band.
He was almost kicked out of the whatever the agency was that was managing psychological institutions in the UK only fuck kick out of it for having this theory that eventually caused the theory of attachment. But over time. I don't call that a thousand Studies have been done since on is working overtime. His insights have been really strongly hoarded and it's grown in and so now we have attachment Theory what that means is that especially in years 1 2 3 whenever level of attachment we have with
Mother with a father it finds us in really significant ways for the rest of our lives and if we were in securely attached then it also makes it extremely hard for us to have deep improper relationships with people all through our lives. It's like massively influenced by those early years now Dad's face one, but Phase 2, he died before he ever got to see this but another set of researchers picked up the Baton and started looking into whether the attachment theory that that everyone thought applied only
to sort of these infants could also be true with adult relationships in the answer to that question is a resounding. Yes, and that every argument every fight that adults have with each other An Intimate Relationships, especially let's say every fight is about the same blasted thing and what it's about is described by a different professor as like a crime or cry or you know primal.
Scream or something over remove the term now, but what that Primal desire is, you really see me. Do you really know me do you really are you really going to be there for me if I'm desperate enough and that's what it's always about. That's the hot that's every other argument about the same thing. We do you really see me crew and I be securely attached to you a used securely attached to me. And so okay now contrast that will self actualization the whole argument itself Act
Realization if you think self-actualization the has needed in life and then you get into a relationship you start creating this kind of language in the psychological industry. You start saying if you need the other person too much, you're codependent. You create language read it you say. Oh, well, that's just enmeshment you're struggling with what you need is to be independently happy independently secure independently invulnerable independently strong and then together then you're going to create this great Dynamic relationship. I can think of people I don't really want to say it even though everybody knows.
These people Global icons two are in a relationship that looks about as toxic as a relationship can possibly look in which they describe that they're in they say we're in this bad marriage within this terrible, but the we're gonna stick it out because that's what love is it's like you go make yourself happy and you go make yourself happy and then we'll be happy together. It's a global manifestation. I feel so bad for the couple of all the people involved by it, but it's like this manifestation of a bad Paradigm that we have.
Been taught what you want is exactly the opposite of that. It's like no we need effective dependence where we actually feel deeply connected deeply seen emotionally safe attached. That's what we're really going for. And so bringing this now back to the question of self-transcendence all transcend. This means multiple things. So I don't want to oversimplify it is certainly means giving yourself to something bigger than yourself. It's
Means that transcending yourself trying to live bought something Beyond us and it includes definitely includes in his definition being able to be unified with other people in deep relationships. And so that's not the whole sense that he meant by that term but it's certainly included in and that is to say you can't have self-transcendence if you haven't learned how to
Like they go together you you have to be quite developed in order to be able to deeply connect with others. You have to be very vulnerable because my goodness you have to cry out as it is. It were to say I feel so in safe right now in this conversation. I have to speak truth about this and I'd rather just I'd rather say all you just don't like me or you just to like this. Are you instead of the vulnerability the truth of this is how I feel this is what's going on. Now. Let me listen to you. Let's fight this out, but let's have it.
intent we're going to actually
deeply connect with the other person. I see an overlap between these two terms. Let me heartburn with a couple of thoughts that are popping to mind and then a couple of questions. So the first is that if we end up publishing this for people who are listening the I would imagine what you're describing on some level as its core has truth, right so you can be truthful and communicate your needs and so on without trauma
warming or using performative vulnerability right which I think has become very fashionable, especially in places like Austin where you meet somebody you're two minutes into meeting them at a party and they've already told you about their worst childhood trauma and are just offloading these horrible things as a means of theater almost it's just become like a Portlandia of here are the bad things that have happened to me and let me be vulnerable but I feel like what you're describing is is very different in the sense that
That there's a core of truth to it and you can still be independently strong in a million different ways and effective in a million different ways while still doing that right? I just I'm just trying to say that to myself as much to anyone else like it doesn't have to be this.
Overly sort of bemoaned drawn-out protracted confession of weakness or something like that. It can have a component of vulnerability certainly, but there's also a core of strength in my mind because it requires a certain core strength to be consistently truthful and to solicit truth. That's that is not easy is truth not performance. Yeah, exactly. And then the the question that I want to ask is thinking about say
And self-transcendence and relationships and so on what order do we put these in for people who are listening or for myself, right? Although I think I've actually made tremendous progress on most of these fronts in the last handful of years. But how would you suggest someone approached this in other words if they're saying alright. Well self-transcendence is the top of the ladder by dr. Maslow and is in his final writings. I'm up for that that makes sense to me and they want healthy interdependent relationships.
And they recognize that the sort of Gordon gekkos / go go go achiever culture in the US while it produces a lot of GDP and others things doesn't always but actually very rarely produces stable well-being and most people and the question then comes up which is in what order do I tackle this thing? Should I read a book on attachment Theory and do that first and then maybe look at Maslow stuff and then look at something else from a brass tax perspective if somebody's like, yeah, you know what you're right if I look
at myself truthfully, you know, honestly, I have deficits in these areas and I want to try to make the leap like I want to I want to work on these things. How would you suggest someone do that? Maybe you can give me your two cents. There is a book. Let me look at the cover really quickly. I think it's just called attached. We have the new science of adult attachment, etc. Etc. Which has I guess two magnets in the form of a heart on the cover pretty good cover. I'll give it credit.
The new science of adult attachment how it can help you find and keep Love by Amir Levine MD and Rachel SF color. Ma. 19400 37 reviews 4.7 star average. I have not read it so I can't speak to this but I know a number of friends have read this and found it helpful, but I'm speculating here. So what would you say? Well I can start with myself in just being a spaz truthful about how I'm seeing it but the answer to the question. What's my 1?
priority
For 2024 it is to help my wife Anna and I too feel safely attached deeply connected.
And I would say there's a lot more right with with our relationship and marriage than there is wrong with it. And actually I you know, like I think there's a lot of goodness in it, right? You know, we married 23 years. We were children. We work together. We're communicating it in all sorts of ways and I think successfully but I now understand this this additional gear and I think yeah, that's the difference. And so one of the books that was recommended to me as book called Hold Me Tight by dr. Seuss.
Johnson and I think I would say that she's done maybe more than anyone else to bring this adult attachment Theory think she calls it EMT to the therapeutic process. And so I think that's a pretty great place to start is to is for is to read what she's written. She has a process a series of conversations. I want to also suggest sujatha and she's actually been on the podcast and was beyond impressive exceeded every possible expectation. I could have had
So I'm glad that you're mentioning her. I think that's that's the place but I think that is an answer to that question. The only thing I'm concerned about is I try and answer that is to what degree in my reading my autobiography into other people's lives, you know, like I mean, I'm sort of coming at this with that there are 1000 x relationships. That is if there's a purpose to life. It's that I'm using a quote and I want to tell you where that's from in a second but you know, it's a dare for my most important relationship is Anna and therefore as I'm understanding.
What really creates these disproportionately great relationships is this attachment you like? There's a there's a logic that gets me here. But because somebody else is coming at their lives are so different to mine and different instead of starting point. They have different ending points. I want to be careful about that but I don't think what we've talked about today is the kind of thing that people regret, you know, like if you pursued this you're not going to use the deathbed test. You're not going to be like, oh my goodness. I can't believe it. I can't believe that I really
Ali figured out the most important relationships and I really invested in them seriously and I got attached to them and you know struggled with him and but improved on it like you're not gonna regret that Journey it seems to me no, no definitely not. What was the quote was that? Yeah. This is something man. So, okay, so I'm writing a new book doing any research doing a doctorate at the University of Cambridge inadvertently. And so
But I've learned to something like like this. It's we live in the loneliest era on record more surface interactions is not going to help at all. So we have to learn to connect deeply with vital few people and that that is for the work of life. Okay. So that's part of what I've come to his. I've been doing all this research in this thinking so I posted something about that in these subjects on social media and one of the people were my friends that
Was this said you know what? This is something I just read this right on that theme. So that's how I got connected to it. I think it's Eric Newton. I think is his name and Eric you can took to Twitter are in took two x and he wrote up a story of what's happened in his life recently, which is heartbreaking but also life-changing and he says he starts off basically saying look, this is I've wrestled with whether I should share publicly.
Something that so private it's a bit tacky to do that but still really glad that he did it. Okay, so I just pulled it up. I'm just gonna read a few little bits from it. He said I lost my wife to cancer last month her daughter lost her mother. I'm hesitated sharing any of this but there is something I want to record fair warning. This is mostly about love. I'm devastated a hole has opened where I thought my identity lived a daughter is doing the same in her toddler way asking questions.
Slowly understanding what's happened reeving and stages. We had a delightful life together full of intense highs and lows but two elements that were vastly more important to us than any of this our extraordinary little daughter and the quality of the time we all spent together Aubrey and I fell in love the early and fast, but we fell more in love during the time. She was convalescing than I thought was possible basing death everyday allowed us to set aside the silly things and focus on what matters the privilege of knowing and
Loving her so deeply outpaces every other experience I've had is the one thing that matches. Okay. I've considered whether to share any of this. Obviously. It's tacky to make personal tragedy into a public spectacle, but I wanted to capture something that I've learned. Okay, I'm skipping here. She says that he says this we had an epic love affair and yet we reached a depth of intimacy while Aubrey was on her deathbed that we'd never had access to before that depth of Love wasn't available to us any earlier for whatever reason, but it
Is available. I want to make it available to everyone by reminding you it exists or Bri shifted into a deeper love about six weeks before she died during her time in the hospital a one regret was that she hadn't spent more time deepening relationships with the people she cared about
She said the only thing that matters at all is the quality of the relationships with the people. We love focus on that. I know it sounds trite in a tweet, but I can guarantee you with absolute certainty that when you're dying and you will die. These are the only things you will care about or be realize this deeply in the most fundamental way because she was running out of time. So she put it into action. It was mostly Instinct at first but by the end her deeper way of loving had become very conscious and intentional a change was palpable.
She softened and opened she began to be with those around her in a kind of total surrender. We all felt that she was experiencing as without a filter somehow. We were seen and loved it was beautiful. It was overpowering it was humbling beyond measure as she did all this those around her began to learn how to do it as well. I learned being loved that completely is overwhelming in the best way. It's probably all any of us ever crave. I've tried to carry that love forward ever since loving that deeply
A practice it's like anything. Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes it's very hard but it's always worthwhile the key to this kind of love is necessarily different for everyone. I only know one way complete surrender to the inevitable death of yourself. And those you love I'm not writing this to proselytize any given path. I simply want to say out loud that it is possible to love with a depth Brett. They used to think was fiction progressively deepening love is the goal and end in and of itself if there is a point
And it's that that's incredible. I'm just sitting with that for a minute. What a gift to write that down for people also to absorb well to read. Yeah, so I reached out to him and so he's already responded. We just going to schedule a time and get a try and get you know, more of that story in the details of it because I think we're at deserves to be told, you know, like when I read that that sort of is reinforcing and crystalizing of all these other themes have been
Bribing it's like yeah, he just met he said it and he said it out of his suffering produced that level of clarity and it's like look if I don't understand that and then I make my goal list if I don't understand that and then I just go to email if I don't understand that and I just react and just do what I think of the people think is cool or good do they think I'm a shouldn't use this exam. I don't know what you think's example. I love skiing and so do you but like
Oh, I if I'm just going skiing because other people think is cool to go skiing if I'm traveling because other people I think other people think it's cool to travel. I could spend my whole life doing that and really just miss it all miss. This Miss what Eric's dated quick. I thought maybe mundane recommendation get off social media for a while folks or ask yourself before you post or actually let's rewind before you do something if you could never tell anyone about it outside of maybe
Your family our closest friends via phone call. If you could not post it, if you could not put this on social media or in a newsletter or on a blog or pick your channel YouTube. Would you still do this? And if the answer is no don't do it as an exercise. You can always go back to the heroin seed of fake Social reinforcement on social media that's always available but least as an exercise ask yourself that question. I've done that and poor.
The reason I have no social apps on my phone and that's been largely true for two or three years. Now, if you don't have as you mentioned, like if you don't have these sort of foundational directional documents or tools given the tools at hand given the information Deluge that is only going to accelerate exponentially with AI and disinformation and so on.
That is going to this year 2024 is going to at least 10 x probably 100 x Min it is going to multiply so unbelievable. If you do not have these guardrails and these sort of operating principles in place you are going to lose and what you'll lose is personal but like you are going to lose whatever when the good applied in a lot of different domains, but the technology has you completely
diagrammed and defeated before you ever step into these domains is like billions upon billions of dollars of data science and research and so on that has gone into ensuring that your willpower will not be sufficient particularly. If it doesn't have a trained fixed point in the distance to come back to the being lost in the wilderness analogy as my job interview some of the mountain top performers in the world hundreds of
And the change that I have seen for those people in that subset who are already I think most people would agree in the top 1% of 1% in terms of worldly achievement the dramatic candy cap that I've seen the dramatic reduction in productivity that I've seen among those people who have succumbed to the siren song of social media specifically is jaw-dropping is truly unbelievable just in the last 12 months.
It's what I've observed. It really seems to be going parabolic. So in any case, I'm going to stop giving my sensible woman speech. I listen. I liked that speech and I think first of all, that's right. And you know, it's assisting right like I mean, I don't even love the term like it Matrix various reasons, but it's still helpful to but like the Matrix is so consuming and it's so much.
Bigger than me and it's so much in that sense more powerful. Now, it's not if I am conscious of it and can step out of it and can you know make it you know, like all of this Ai and all of it. Perhaps makes a good servant but it certainly makes a poor master and if I'm not conscious that it is either already my master or is trying to be the night. So it's already over you know, like if I had my odds find it's easy. It's like, okay. Well, then you already lost the game the battle if
You don't realize you're in a game. You've already lost the game. But let me ask you when you're talking about the priority your priority top priority the one priority and I'm going to make mistakes with the wording, but it was along the lines of fostering and cultivating secure attachment with your wife. If I remember correctly for a lot of people who may be listening certainly for me. Also, when I think about that, I'm like yes. Yes, and yes, and also typically if I had a primary goal.
Let's just say I'll pull out something that's less lower to the ground in a sense that makes it easier to use as an example. Write a screenplay. Let's say I want to write a screenplay this year. That's one of my top goals. Okay, great. Then I can work backwards from that and say, okay. Well, what are the sort of antecedents? How long do those take? Who do I need to interact with? How should I block this out in the calendar? And then I can execute something resembling a blueprint right or a Gantt chart or something like that.
With your top priority. How do you ensure that you are taking meaningful action related to that top priority. I know exactly what you're saying. This is the advantage of a concrete goal is that concrete goal almost immediately presents the plan or elements of a plan almost immediately start to arrive. Okay. Well if we're doing this we would have to do a b and c and so on and that's one of the reasons girls are so powerful and and so scary too.
Because if you get your mind set on the wrong goal you then then you'll be consumed with it and maybe going in the wrong direction. Okay. So how do you do it if the goal is relationship? It's really different isn't it? Because it's not about achieving checkpoints and the Very nature of the relationship is that it's symbiotic, but I think that the way I've been thinking about this is like this. It's I like this intent the language that are chosen cause it's something that
It's a metric in and of itself and so it's an immediately testable metric do I feel that right now as an affiliate right now and then of course you could go from that to each of my children. Do we feel it right now? And if we don't let's talk about that because now we're having the real conversation. Is that feeling one of calmness lack of fear that you are not withholding. What are the characteristics of stealing the yes hate we attached. Yes, right.
Yeah, i-i'll give you the words and mind and it may be I will be by the end of the year. I'll have better more precise ways of describing these things. But yes, I think it's really safe. Not just sort of safe really safe. I'm safe to say what I really think it's safe enough to do what you really think and not take my so that there's just space somewhere in the world to be able to express all of that that we don't express.
In any other situation, it's a little bit like this idea that you want your like remember somebody a psychologist describing this. They said if your children are acting out at home, but not at school like they're doing well at school but not at home, you know, the teachers are got hotter so great here and and you go jeez, they're not so great with us. It's actually just exactly what you want because they're safe to be able to act out at home. So that have to be everywhere else didn't see that coming. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense and inside to civil away, I think.
To safely attached relationship is that you can act out so a bit because you need somewhere to be able to do that. You can say or your fears you can say all the nonsense. So I think that's sort of a test of it if you want to build Beyond there. Like I think it's in this is this is I would say the biggest test for me is can I create enough time every day for that so that it's not just a bit here and a bit there, you know, like normally happens in fact because just in the same way as
if you leave exercise and you leave your relationships is just like well, we'll just let that happen. However, it does then you end up with bad relationships and ill health. That's what normally happens. I mean, that's like when I ask people what's essential that they're under investing in those are like basically the two most frequent answers is not exercising not eating well in my relationship. So, you know, my most important relationships are struggling in some way. So it's how do I create like that?
One to two hours per day not watching TV. Not together not doing things not even just talking about hey that what happened today and what's going on and updates and there's loads of that but enough time uninterrupted. I'm so you actually get to get to the other subject because whenever I do that whenever we do that, it works. I mean the difference is conversation. It's you know conversation starts at a hit right? It's trivial. It's
It's present is like okay, this is happened in the news on injection going to work right now and he just got back and I just it's updates and then as you go down, it becomes more vulnerable, but it also becomes more essential and so you have to have enough time to have those conversations. So that's that's what I'm like and I have to really be willing to make the trade-off for distinction and there's a question because I've developed this as I'm sure some listeners have this acute allergic reaction to the word.
I think you've heard this word. I'm sure used when it's let's talk about all of the difficult emotional things. I would imagine what you're referring to is some version of what people might call quality time where you're getting past just the triage of updates right for instance a friend of mine. He's been on the podcast quite a few times Seth Godin has found that preparing meals he had cooked for his family as his kids were growing up a lot and his kids would help with some of the prep work.
They just stand around the kitchen island. And that's when the kids would fall in tear a lot Ryan. It was in that type of setting so they were doing something or he was doing something but it kind of provided a safe container for all that to happen, but it wasn't like sitting down into chairs opposite each other.
Plumbing the depths of flike
Deep Emotions as a conversation if that makes sense. So I'm wondering when you say making the time like what forms that time takes its quantity and quality. It really is actually making a sacrifice making the trade off so examples. Yes. Yes, the way you're saying said third example, I think is included. Okay. So so with my children and with Anna when I travel I will take somebody with me and so that just provides a lot of potential for, you know ripping at this larger surface area.
Actually and then and then suddenly kind of spontaneous to be conversations. I like that there's a random and then but there's method in the madness to that suddenly something more sensitive comes up and now you're talking about that real subject. And so I think it is there is a structural piece to leave him for me when I said, okay, there's the date night actually structurally insisting. It happened once or even maybe you get to twice a week and you you sort of forcing the space to exist possible conversation and it
Could be all sorts of things but it's a structural piece. And I think that that's non-trivial space never happens in my life. No never you know, if I go back into like 1820 kind of time frame like so pre-industrial Revolution, and I'm not trying to romanticize it. I think that must have been so hard to live then I cannot even imagine surviving was so so so hard you mean you don't want your five-year-old being a chimney sweep. Yes. I mean, I mean honestly though
In fact fudge what a did have an advantage over us is that the sun went down and the wasn't electricity and so you could not escape the people in your life in the way we can it wasn't default. It was defaulted in favor of yo-yos facing each other. There's not a phone to face. You got a few books maybe probably have the Bible if you have a book and then you have a few other books and you're going to read from those books and you're going to talk about them because once
The sun is down. That's what you have. That was a forcing function that we just completely lost. I talked to somebody one time. Here's what he was doing. I was working on a TV show based on essentialism. And so we're doing like the trying to kind of create a pitch deck bread and and we'd selected these people and was talking to her. She's very professional together woman and like maybe even non-emotional even ending the interaction in the conversation coaching session. We were having this coaching session and then quite unexpectedly.
Completely unexpectedly for her. She burst into tears just right in the middle of conversation. It's priced to but it shotput like does not do emotion like and it was closed. She was reflecting on her relationship with her husband, I think and how basically that their relationship had become both of them in the bed on their phones and that that had become so consuming not an exception, but the rule of the
Ship and it was like goodness. There's no connection. It's just it's so different than what you had until 1820, you know, like there's no phone. There's no technology. There's no it is not there that that whole system was was gone. So anyway, do you think you're a rate that never exist now, you have to create eysan and so it at the structural element I would say means that I battle with my children and arrived and started saying okay once a quarter we go away ourselves, and it's not
Hey, we're going on a little vacation. It's like we are trying to go deliberately like or really we're here to talk. Let's talk beyond the things we get to normally and and let me got miles to go but we just got back from the last one and it was something that was amazing. It was amazing trip and it was so helpful. And so we scheduled the next one and it wasn't three hours later. It's probably about six months later that will go to that specific location again, is it worked so well, and so it's you know, I think it's
It's it's the daily. They are drilling. It's the we can structure the monthly strikes portly structure. Right and all of these things. I think once you start exploring the me like, okay. Well then what you would do with other goals as well, but but it's not getting it done. You're not trying to get done as you are with other goals, right checking it off. The list project is complete. This relationship is not an is not a means to an end relationship is the end it is the
And in and of itself and that's how I think the first thing you mentioned to you know, the 1820 and I just wanted to say that I have spent a lot of time in South America and Africa and some very rural locations and I then gone back and visited these places after cell phones and very slight Broadband penetration. And then post Broadband. I've been able to see
What has happened? So those places have resembled to in probably more ways than not the 1820s. You describe right tight social bonds in part because that is the entertainment they have and very little electricity. So also life tends to slow down people are communal at night. They wake up. They go to the farm very often and then as things are introduced for instance. I went to two different villages in Northern.
You up yet and chatting with one of the interpreters who is helping this group? And he was mentioning that one town is really unhappy and the other town was very happy because I was commenting how I found Ethiopian people in general to be very upbeat and to smile easily and so on and I asked him why that one Village was unhappy and he said well, they got satellite television introduced and now they see the Kardashians in reality TV, and they know how much they're missing.
Ali that's what he said. I'm not in those exact words but more or less that and and then if I look at for instance some of these places in South America as as another example that I've visited which now have say starlink and other means of readily accessible easily accessible 24/7 Broadband, they are suffering from all of the same distractions and issues. Now the fracturing of social bonds the isolation not too
Extent that you see in a city like New York City, of course, but you're seeing the same phenomena and so much like sometimes people have heard the expression. It's the economy stupid on some level. Like it's the tools stupid like it you you don't assume you are fundamentally flawed.
There's there's always a lot of self work to do and there's the project is never finished. But also, let's look at the Occam's razor contribution here to a lot of these issues and so much malaise and sense of discontent, which is the tools. So like turn off the tools or at least to ration the tools and see what happens and then I would say just to kind of bring this full circle that this conversations been super super helpful for me has given me a lot to think about and also I'm huh
So think about the patriarchal blessing and what my version of that could be something that I revisit on a regular basis. So I'm actually fortunate that I'm spending time right now with a friend of mine. My only male friend who is incredibly well versed with poetry at least younger male friend. So his I can I can visit his lot mental library to see what he matches for me something about that. And then also once again about systems and structure for not just busy CEOs, but for almost anyone who has
barraged with the sensory overload and uninvited inputs and stimuli that anyone listening to this is without structure without putting things in the calendar without a plan the most important things are not going to take care of themselves. You're not just automatically going to have time and a program for self care for the gym for your most important relationships. It's not going to happen accidentally or at least the
Against it so the better plan is to plan. That's it. Right there is how do you stack the deck in your favor? Because that currently stacked against you and I'm not making a plug of just expressing. The reason I did it, right. The reason I wrote effortless after essentialism Buzz. I'd like you have to build a system that makes it the default that you'll do the essentials and not do the non-essentials and I already said that and essentialism actually, but it was like get people didn't hear it. They just heard.
Earlier you need to do this enter this non-essentials and and then I hear the feedback over the years and years. Well, oh hard to do and it's like it's like yeah you are doing it because you figured out what's essentially figured out what's not essential but then you didn't maybe realized the system is slow built to make the non-essential easy immediately at your fingertip addictive and so on. So now you go, how do I it's not easy to build the system, but you build a system that makes the
Easier and it wouldn't quite be so on that strongly recommend that everybody read effortless. I'm going to reread it and I will also say that there's a
corollary to what you just said that I found helpful and that is one way to make the default easier is to make not doing the default harder / painful exactly. You want to make that you want to make the non-essential hard to do precisely my case per 2024 and I've done this for a few years now, but looking at my top relationships, right? I don't have my own nuclear family right now. I mean out I don't have progenies. Don't try to say so I'm looking largely at my at my ass.
Yes, yes, so I'm looking at my family my mom and my immediate family parents and so on siblings then I'm looking at my closest friends and I'm blocking out time in the calendar getting commitments for say trips or people coming to visit at cetera you making it happen and putting in in my case, right? Let's just say these are trips sunk costs so that it is actually painful for me to undo. The thing that I know is good for me. Does that make sense?
I might write a blog post on this because it's been on my mind for 6 months. Now. I've been talking to friends about it's just like choosing the right sunk costs like sunk cost and some fallacy can steer you in the wrong direction, but you can actually use it to steer you in the right direction. And that's that's something that I've thought a hell of a lot about know, I like that so much because you're right and you know, I generally talk about it in the in the worst sense, but if you were going to design humans for Success you probably
Wanting it to be true that the thing you've committed to you want to stay committed to right like you probably would want to design where people tend to continue to do the thing that they've been doing cause they have invested so much in it. Either way. It's like when they change divorce law in the UK originally, of course, it was intended in a certain way and I think it was maybe even well-intended I would say because you don't want people to be desperately stuck inside.
Certainly, you don't want anyone ever to be in an abusive relationship and then they just cannot get out because the laws are so strict. So there's obviously scenarios in which that helps but the disadvantage is that it incentivize this kind of like no fault divorce is like hey, I'm just I'm not going out now and because self-actualization is the priority it's always always easy to think that's going to lead to Greater happiness, even though the data suggests the people who are divorced like five years later the majority wish they weren't and that they hadn't and they could go back and change it but it's obviously too late now and and so it's just
Interesting to think about what you're saying about like yes committing doing things where you you go. I know it's the right thing. How can I commit in a way that I will be following through even when I feel like getting out you like I would would would rather not do this thing. Now, it's like no you do want to be locked in. Yeah for sure man. Well Greg, this has been so much fun. So nice to hear your voice and where can people find you if we end up publishing this will talk to her.
How did you know there is a single thing it took me it took his way longer than I thought I was going to take to build. This is totally free that it's like literally takes people ten seconds to sign up for it is where to start with essentialism and with effortless and it's a you go to Greg McKeown.com. It's right there on the homepage. It's a 30-day email program. You get a whole workbook that goes with it completely free easy ten seconds to sign up and it answers that question. Where do you stop? How do you how do you spell your name Dear Sir? Oh, yeah, that's
Enough Greg GRE G grab bag McEwen is MC K. EO w n so GRE GMC Keo wnd.com right there on the homepage people can sign up and they'll get an email every few days. They can also just get the workbook printer up work through ten lessons carefully curated and binding the best all of that published written work beautiful how I'm going to dig back into your writing as well. That's that's on my to-do list and successful experiment I enjoy doing
This I appreciate you being game ya to mess around with it. No, I love it. I think it's I think it's a really smart move for you to do it. You got so podcast right? I mean, I have my podcast to I know like it hits you it comes at you so fast to see content you're always in trying to create content, you know bowed and it's nice if you can if you can walk and just build it into your natural what is actually an example of trying to do the thing that is unlikely to happen by itself or on its own and that is I've realized a lot
My constraining physical issues, right my principle physical ailment that affected my last year was this pyramidal stenosis at L4 L5 just some lower back issues. I mean there is no just to it. It's been kind of cataclysmic and its implications for my sleep and for many other things. However, what what I've concluded I'm on the mend, but what I've concluded is it's directly the pain is directly correlated to sitting time. So the more I see it the more it hurts more.
Consistently hurts the longer it hurts and I looked at the driving forces or the different converging Trends related to say podcasting several of which lead to the creation of basically fixed Television Studios, right most podcasters if they're aiming to be highly competitive and to feed gross are building Studios legitimately building. What would be recognized as Television Studios and that is
A call to my reasons for starting the podcast number one, right? So the the characteristics including Mobility sort of ease and ease of lightweight production. Those are the opposite of what is what is happening and what I on some level feel driven to do because I am competitive so I have to be aware of that. It doesn't always serve me it can serve me but doesn't always serve me and so I asked myself this question I ask myself a lot. I should probably ask myself more often frankly, which is what if I did the opposite not just
What if I did 20 percent less not doing TV studio light, but what if I actually did the opposite so the opposite of the opposite looks like well instead of sitting in a fixed location. I would be moving and I would double down on lightweight so that my production would actually become more light. Yeah, not more heavyweight and let me test that for a month and sprinkle it in and see what happens right? Because I can always go back to the other but from the perspective of trying
You think for myself and not succumb to groupthink and also just external pressure but also trying to not just avoid pain but produce Wellness in my life. This is an experiment where it's running. So I've thoughts on this now, it's number one is and I'm not trying to be commercial in saying there's you are describing an effortless strategy. Right? Like it's inverting it thing is like literally it's like judged and
You'll do the opposite when you literally think there is seriously this idea that bats it is harder. So therefore okay we oh well, look at all these people look at what they're all doing. Hawaii have to have the studio my needs to be better than their studio in cool of this year. We have to have older it's like well, that's one strategy and maybe that is but that maybe that's the way but what if what is there an effortless way to do this that actually supports what I really want in my life. I love the children. I love you know going in the other direction and the other thing is do you have a walking desk yet? So I do have
Walking desk and I really want to be outside and or around people. Yeah. No, I'm messing with that. But yes, I do have a walking desk. I love my walking desk. I'm on it right now this whole conversation. I've been doing it. That way. We could have good audio on my side, but I'm still going I don't want to work at unless I'm walking now. I literally just think it's so much better for my mind. Of course. It's better for your body, but it's just I feel healthier mentally when I'm doing so cute.
Has yeah and pixie what fun man? It's really nice to hear your voice in. This has been also very personally helpful for me to think about the upcoming year. So I really do I really do appreciate it.
Tim it's been a genuine pleasure brother Manuel all thanks to your proactive Outreach. So final thought on that is like what I want you to feel forget like all the self day. They sound like attachment stuff. Like what I want you to feel about me really is like this. Like I just feel a sense of like I want to be that just Tim for Tim. This is spawned in this fun thing and having this conversation in a way that's helpful to your podcast and also,
Courses is is helpful to me. I'm sure in various subjects in various ways right reach the audience like I get that this is spawned into this. But like I want you to feel that amongst your group, right you've got you off group of people and your people that Greg is like one of these people in your world is not looking for something from you but is concerned about you and that's really for real for real for me. Like that's my intent and that's what I want you to think the day you feel the worst.
Any text me I want you to be able to feel safe on that day to go. Okay, I'm here. This is the worst. Yeah, thanks, man. Yeah, I appreciate that and I take that to heart. So thank you very much. And thank you. Yeah, we'll talk again soon, man. Take care. Bye bye.
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