Hey guys, I've got something coming up that I'm really excited to share with you, especially right now when there's so much uncertainty with this economy. And with the world if 2020 has been a rough ride for you mentally emotionally and financially I can relate because I've been there the last big economic crash in 2008 was one of the lowest points in my life. I got no job. I had no money, but I was able to turn it around by creating a sign hustle and growing it into a seven-figure income. And I know that if I could do it others can do it as well.
And I want to share with you how I did that so I've got a free online master class coming up and you're invited this training will show you the process to take building a successful side hustle. Even if you don't have an idea yet just go to Louis house.com now and sign up for my free masterclass the seven steps to build a side hustle. Now,
he had a different viewpoint on a lot of things than I did. I mean, I always talk about the Koch brothers know we were to largely different people, but we supported each other.
There we helped each other and I think that that shows that people who are entirely different can still work together.
Welcome to the school of greatness. My name is Louis Howe is a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur and each week. We bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today now let the class begin.
Peter Drucker once said the best way to predict your future is to create it and author Michael Gelb wrote you can change your life by changing the way you think about yourself and your potential today's guest is one of the wealthiest people in the world according to the Forbes richest people list and CEO and chairman of one of the largest privately held American companies Koch Industries with over 130 thousand employees worldwide.
Wide and Charles Koch is an influential philanthropist and has been for more than 50 years. He supports education and he helps organize groups that research solutions to poverty and other big social issues and he has founded in numerous nonprofits including stand together and I had such an incredible time consuming the wealth of knowledge that he has had to share over his incredible years of experience and I can't wait for you to hear it all. We have a lot of similar ideas around mindset and how to be your
most successful self and we discussed a lot of topics that he wrote about in this new book believe in people bottom-up solutions for a top-down world and we went all over the place here, which I'm excited for you to dive into and we talked about the main tools he wishes he would have known sooner in its life to support its growth at the highest level how to encourage people to go through the self-actualization process and why it's so important how it's possible to stay humble after accumulating so much wealth that he has the one skill that Charles was
He could have learned but hasn't yet the moment Charles began his self actualization Journey as a third grader how to deal with criticism and not allow it to consume your self-worth the difference between a wealthy mindset and poor mindset advice for wealthy parents who want to instill the right values in their children Charles talks about his biggest fear around contribution the lessons he's learned from his wife and wide Charles feels the most loved in his life right now.
At 85 I'm telling you. This will be inspiring lesson for so many people to hear make sure to share this with someone in your life that you care about someone that you want to inspire some of that you want to have these lessons as well. You've got an incredible Mentor in Charles to give wisdom right now. So just copy and paste this link Louis house.com / 1034 and copy and paste the link wherever you're listening to this on Apple or Spotify or any podcast platform and Texas to a few friends right now post it on social media and
Sure to subscribe to us over on Apple podcast Spotify or in YouTube and leave us a rating on review as you're listening to this episode over on Apple podcast because I believe you're going to get a lot of value out of this interview. Okay in just a moment the one and only Charles Koch.
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Welcome everyone to the school of greatness. I'm very excited. We have an iconic human being on today. His name is Charles Koch and he is the chairman and CEO of Koch Industries. One of the largest privately held American companies employing over a hundred thirty thousand people worldwide and you have done so much for philanthropy in the last 50 years in terms of supporting education different organizations addressing poverty public policy research so many different things.
And social problems. You've got many nonprofit organizations including Stand Together. You've got many master's degrees from MIT and you're also just a down-to-earth good old country boy from Kansas. So I'm very grateful that you're here. And you also have a new book called believe in people bottom-up solutions for a top-down world that is very inspiring. I was able to go through a lot of this and very inspired by the principles and the stories and the people that you're lifting up throughout this book.
Book and you say Charles each of us can make a big difference when we believe in people. You said this
once Central to our philosophy is that everyone has a gift everyone can contribute if they're empowered. And so that's the secret have a society have institutions have people that Empower others that enable them to find their gift turn it into valued skills and then apply it in a
That enables them to succeed by contributing to others and see how simple this is. And I mean the problem is you need a society that is Roans fully based on the principles of equal rights and mutual benefit were people succeed by assisting each other and everyone has the opportunity to realize their potential now, that's utopian. There is no Society that's been perfect at that.
But even once through history that have had a small degree of that then what these people can do that no one suspected could do anything have done extraordinary things and change society's and so that's what we try to do is go find those people to solve a problem to eliminate it Injustice and then back them and combine our capabilities with there's to enable them to do even more to help even more people what I call.
Is is applying the principles of human progress this involves three different things it because it requires believing in yourself believing in other people empowering them from a bottom-up having them realized that no one's good at everything. We're all just good at a few things. So we need to partner with people who have complementary capabilities. So this gets to Frederick douglass's philosophy that made him such
such a great social entrepreneur to unite with anybody to do right and no one to do wrong. So those are some of our guidelines but as I say the other than the starting point in all this is to recognize that everybody can participate in this everybody can contribute and succeed. So I was disappointing my father and he
stay with me you are working hard enough at six.
I mean this lasted 20 years from the time I found
Gift and and just it might be an interesting story how I found it. I was in the third grade and the teacher was putting math problems on the board and it's amazing what you remember that that is an aha moment and I say to myself why she putting those problems on the board the answers are obvious and I look around the room and they aren't obvious to anybody else. And so that was the starting point in discovering my gift and then I learn okay.
I have an aptitude for Math and other abstract Concepts and that includes principles of Science and the principles of human progress as it turns out. So anyway, it took me 20 years from discovering that to really apply it to enable me to develop that that capability and use it to contribute so I could believe in myself and then I had another ha ha moment.
It was taking the math final there were 10 questions on it. And I answer them on got a hundred and so my friends say why did you answer 10? You only needed to answer 7 to pass I said, oh now I see the problem. If you're not going to use your ability to do your best you you are headed for a dead hand and a lot of these kids ended up in dead ends. So I said I've got to
start applying myself. So my grades got better. So I got into MIT thinking that my aptitude was a good fit for engineering. Well, I got three as you said three degrees in engineering there to learn. I was a lousy engineer. I was good at the underlying Concepts but on using him to make things and in operate things, I've always screwed that up. So I said, well, what do I do? Okay. I've got to find a place I
Work where I can experiment they do trial and error and find something that fits me that I have to find something. I'm good at that. I can apply this aptitude that would enable me to contribute. So I said, well, I want to be an entrepreneur and I had friends and professors who at MIT who were starting businesses and I said, okay, I'll I'll find one of these that will take me on I can invest with them and go to work there and that would be my start is
As an entrepreneur so I was talking to friends and professors about that. And by the way, we did invest with them later, but I didn't go to work for him because my father called and we had a small company then the main business was a crude oil Gathering system and Southern Oklahoma, and he said sounded like to come back and join the company. I mean you got all this experience. Now I said, wow, as tough as he'd been on me. I didn't want any more of that. Right? I want to be independent. And so so he
Lay back a little while later and he said he said sign as you know, my health is poor. I'm not able to really run the company and so it's not doing well and I don't have long to live and either you come back and work to run the company or I'll have to sell it and he said and I'll let you run part of it without any interference from me from day one. The only thing I need one improve is if you do.
Decide to sell that that part of it so I said I'm not going to get a better entrepreneurial offer than that. And he was absolutely true to his word. I mean it was in bad enough shape that even as little as I knew I was able to make substantial Improvement, but I still felt empty something was missing. I mean, it's Maslow said what you can be you must be if you're not fully using your capabilities and realizing your potential you will be miserable.
Even
if you're externally successful and boy that fit me, so I said well, what do I do? I got to do something. So I dedicated myself to learning the the principles of human progress. So I read everything that had any relation whether that was the philosophy of science philosophy economics anthropology sociology. You name it and I read it from all different perspectives.
John Stuart Mill said if you only know your side of the case, you know little of that and I found boy. Is that true. If you don't know the arguments against what you think is right. You don't really know you're really you're just accepted it. So you gotta challenge
yourself. What would you say? You said you started to obsess over learning and reading about these finding tools principles Concepts to support you in becoming the greatest version of yourself, what would you say are the three?
Most important tools that you've learned whether at 27:40 85. What were those two lists three tools you wish you would have known sooner that's supported your growth at the highest level
for me to feel good about myself and that's true today at age 85 is how do I contribute? Hmm. And the way I contribute is to use my gifts focus in areas that for which my capabilities
Can make the biggest contribution. Okay, so then how do I develop them? So if I wish I mean I wasted 20 years there if I had if I developed a passion at age 10 or something or aged 18 rather than age 27 to find these conceptual tools that I could use because soon as I'd learn one of these principles the principles I saw through history, really
Empowered people and move Society toward one of equal rights and mutual benefit. I found that worked. Wow, these these these these ideas work. So the first thing is that and then you then you need to realize that okay, you're good at this that doesn't mean you're good at a bunch of other stuff. So don't start thinking you're just smarter than other people or anything and I mean, this is another thing.
Thing I studied multiple intelligence theory that we have these discrete their these discrete intelligence there, which I mean I don't agree quite the Way It Was Written but but there was an element of Truth in it. And so if you realize that then you say okay, I'm good at certain things and I'm not good at others and if I want to contribute, I can't be doing it all or I'll make a mess of it. So I've got to go partner.
With people and whenever I found the right Partners who were good at all the other things that needed to be done than I won then I've succeeded and when I haven't had good partners, I've tried to do myself. I fail I mean for me but I mean a lot of people have much broader capabilities than I do, but mine are pretty darn good in this one area if I just if I just stick to it to really contribute you focus on creating value for others you focus on
on bottom-up empowerment. And so that's what we've done with our employees. For example in our company the first job of every supervisor at every level including me is to help your people self-actualize as a matter of fact in our guiding principles number eight is is
self-actualization. Yeah. I love that you have that so we're not going great. Yeah,
so we're not kidding around about
Stuff and we find when we do that and with technology now, it's much easier to do it because it's easier to give them tools so they can be entrepreneurs so they can be self-starters. And now we're fine. I mean every meeting now, I'm the first thing I warmed up. Okay, what are the Innovations where they coming from? And they're coming from Frontline people doing the work. I mean not
from you not from the
leader. No.
Well in a matter of fact what I do if I get an idea what we ought to do, okay want to make this acquisition or we need this strategy or something. The first thing I do is say okay. I got the concept and this is a poppers theory of the scientific methods true science is coming up with a testable proposition and then not going around trying to find things that will support it. But go around and find things that will undermine show the flaws and
And so that's what I we get a group of people who together for on all the different drivers of success with this Venture. I have in mind to point out the flaws from their perspective and we always come up with a better answer than I started with and so this empowers everybody and then every supervisor supposed to help each employee find their gift. Hmm, and then when they find their gift then work with them to design a
All around that rather than okay. We got these roles. We're going to stick you in it. And so typically somebody in a role they're good at half of it and then they struggle with the other you give them feedback and so on. That's like if I if I work for an opera company and I was a business manager. I might do pretty well, but then the tenor got sick and they made me sing tenor they could train me give me feedback till the end of time. I would fail and the Opera Company would fail so
That's what we've learned and then give them the tools and the authorities to practice this and get turned on and make
Innovations. Were you a baritone? I'm a note tone. You're no singer. Leave that to your wife, huh?
Yeah, my yeah and my daughter
I'm curious why emphasize self-actualization so much with your culture in your in your businesses and how
Else do we learn to self-actualize if we're not looking for it? How do we how do we encourage it for someone if they're not looking to grow looking to discover their gifts if they just kind of want to keep doing the thing they've done how do we encourage and cultivate
that and know that's that's a great question and that goes right to the heart of it. What we all do if we if we learned the way to do things and it didn't work in. Well we tend to double dot what we're going to do more of this thing. That doesn't work.
Work the only way people are willing to take the risk and and put in the effort to learn a new way is if you can convince them. This is a better way. This will make your life better. Give more meaning to your life. You'll be more successful. It's worth the effort. And so we recruit on basically two Dimensions. The first is are you contribution motivated or can we get you to be?
If you're negatively motivated and you want to get ahead by maneuvering and and showing the other employees are bad or you're better than they are all of that and are fudging the figures or stuff. We've had of boy boy. That is
Poison the cancer, right?
It's a it's an absolute boy. That's a good way to put it. It's an absolute cancer.
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So the first thing is are they contribution motivated and then the second do they have a talent non credentials not where they went to college or if they went to college we couldn't care less. Do you have a talent that's going to enable us to do a better job of creating value for all our constituency starting with our customers our employees our suppliers our communities and societies a
And then to help is continually transform ourselves to do better and better at that. Hmm. That's a beautiful way of recruiting. Oh, yeah. No, I we get people here and they get into this and you know, we we talk about self actualization a lot with our employees and they say when they really get the bug and they start innovating and and getting the the authority to do more and experiment more try new things.
Wow, now my job is fun. Right? I'm loving it rather than drudgery right Technologies really helping with that now you can automate and so then they can figure out how to use the automation better and how to do new things and we can stop doing that because we can do it we can cut out two steps now, it's fabulous. Well, you can tell I get pumped up about this and then this is the same approach we use in our philanthropic.
Community stand together. Once again, we don't say okay. We had Stand Together got all the answers we go find Social entrepreneurs who have lived through a problem or been close to a problem. Whether that's Addiction in prison in poverty and a bad education system and a bad school and they found a better way a way to really empower the students rather than turn out turn them off against this
this this one-size-fits-all schooling teach to test stuff to help Empower them and the same things in across the board all the key institutions where we're working to find these social entrepreneurs and then Empower them to do even more and then descale because as I said, I think earlier that that what strange Societies in the past is whether there are enough of these people who
Transform themselves become social entrepreneurs and when you get enough of them showing There's A Better Way showing that the person who was just a worker can have ideas and start a business and do amazing things. I mean look at the Wright brothers. Yeah government was supporting a big project to build airplanes and the Wright brothers bicycle mechanics figured it out way before and way cheaper than this will
Credentialed effort this is the problem with this top-down stuff you okay think okay. We know who's smart and who's not and we're going to give them the authority to do it in the rest of you just shut up and go do your work and we'll feed you some stuff and we find you don't know in advance. Mmm. Look at Einstein. He wouldn't accept it at University became a patent clerk you could go through example through example through history and that's what's so fabulous. And this is why I'm so excited as I see this
Every time I see somebody you coming in power and transforming their lives. Okay. This is validation of my whole
life. Yeah,
and I can't tell you the number of former employees who have either written me or coming to see me and say that what I learned here and what not more than just learning it academic but actually practicing and seeing that focusing on creating value for others rather than always what's in it for me.
Me because of you help others. They're going to help you. Absolutely if you don't help others, everybody wants you to fail when you're helping them. They want you to win. So you develop this culture of mutual benefit and mutual assistance.
I love it. You're speaking my language. You're talking about the Wright brothers. I'm from I'm from a small town in Ohio. So you're speaking close to home to me. They're talking about personal growth personal development within a workplace. What are the what are the main keys to
self-actualization is starting with
Van yourself
and but how does someone believe in themselves when all they do is doubt all the time, they find
anyone and that's the way I was. Yeah, so it took me 20 years and that's why we wrote this book to help it not take 20 years for people. So we need schools to or be oriented. We need businesses to be oriented. And the way they do it is they have some success. Wow, if I and they see other people well who were doing well?
Well, and they got in the right role and with the right supervisor who's helping Empower them and so it's bottom-up empowerment. Yeah, that's what social entrepreneurship is all about. Like Scott Strode who was an addict and for 10 years and he found by going to the gym and others there who had the problem and they helped each other. Hmm, and he says, well, I'm going to set up an organization.
To do this and it's called The Phoenix I mean which is rising or its tremendous success rate. I think it's doubled to the success rate of any other method that we're aware of wow for for healing addiction and it's this combination of community and mutual support and they go on Hikes. They do rock climbing together.
They'll do boxing together new gymnastics together so that people can see they can do it and then there are people there to help them not just talk about it, but do it that's that's the key and do it within a community and then you have a support Community who's really supporting you to go out and live. Yeah, not just exist.
Yeah. So so believing in yourself is the first thing and really finding
Gift and then finding success within your gift will help you believe in yourself more. What's another main key to
self-actualization? Well, it's having its having mentors having having people these social entrepreneurs who are dedicated to empowering you. It's like Chad Hauser. I don't know whether you've read about him and they all these are in the book. Yeah. He was very successful chef and restaurateur.
Owner and he came in touch with some of these kids in the juvie who were called throwaway kids. Mmm, and he said that's offensive to me. Nobody is throw away. He said so I'm going to create a restaurant totally staff by these kids. Wow after they get out of juvie, and I'm going to show them that they can succeed and then what will happen when people come there and they get great.
Service great food and a great atmosphere from these throwaway kids then it changes their mind set. And so you open people's minds and that's that's how societies change we got to show a better way. And so we have that in area after area going on and we just need to scale it and celebrate it more. So more and more people see this because we find as you can see people who are
endorse this book. It isn't just one group. It's people across from all walks of life all different Persuasions. Yeah.
I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I think I read online that Forbes list you as a 11th richest person in the world. I'm sure that goes up and down. How does somebody I don't believe it. How does someone stay humble of being having that much money and being on a list of whether it's 11:00 or a hundred or whatever. How does
How do you stay humble when you've accumulated so much wealth and built a company with hundred and thirty thousand employees around the world? How do you do that?
Well, I'm like Martin Luther here. I stand I can do no other to me the first person you've got to please is yourself. Hmm and all this external stuff. Oh you had all this money you've accomplished all this will big deal what I'm interested in what I'm going to accomplish tomorrow. Am I going to
Help somebody tomorrow. It's what Maslow said is that to self-actualize there has to be Synergy a merger of the selfish and unselfish. That is you. Okay. I'm going to dedicate my life to helping others improve theirs, but I'm going to focus people on where there's a spirit of mutual benefit and it may just be my own self-worth. It's
Fitting but that's I mean, that's all I need now. I don't I don't need more money or anything I need but I need money to better help people become empowered. So that's how I use it. Look all the criticism. I get you think I'm doing all this stuff so I can get praised. Well, I found it doesn't get your praise people are threatened by it or they're envious or whatever. All you get is more attacks.
But we're also finding as people learn this works and if they do it, they feel better about themselves and they have a better life. It's what Victor Frankel said ever more people have the means to live but no meaning to live for mmm or Bob Dylan said those not busy being born or busy dying. So if you're just sitting around counting your money, I mean, what's that about? That's not a lie.
How do you handle all the criticism and attacks? And
Men's about decisions you make or are going to make how do you personally internalized and not allow a consume your self-worth
internalize Karl poppers scientific method and that is you you want criticism. Now you you would hope it would all be constructive to help it but I realized a lot of it is just try to shut me down. Shut me up and go hide in the corner somewhere that doesn't seem to work for him. But
But but even then even then when they're attacking, okay, why are they attacking? And so I like it? Maybe we can find Common Ground like with Van Jones. He led the demonstration against our first event in Palm Springs. I mean, he was out there physically leading and he hated us and so when we started working on Criminal Justice Reform, we were looking for people across the spectrum that would work with and he was interested in it. So we approached him and he said yeah.
Wow, I mean like like Frederick doll you and I with anybody to do right all even work with you and so he became good partners with our general counsel who is leading our effort in there and they were on TV together. Tell him what a great partnership we had and he said on that. He said I used to thank all the people on the other side of these issues were evil of issues that I was passionate about and everybody on my side was good. He said I find good and evil people
All on both sides, there are good people on the other side. They just have a different perspective on how to help people. So that doesn't make them evil. That means we should work together put our heads together because different ideas I as I say, I find there all the time complementary capabilities you share ideas and you come up with a better solution. That's how Innovations are made. I mean, that's what Newton said if I see furthers because I'm standing on the shoulders.
There's of giants. He said I didn't invent all this stuff. I found new ways to put it
together. I love this. You're in the flow. What would you say is a difference between a wealthy or Rich mindset versus a poor mindset. Is it a way of thinking is it a way of acting and being and doing what's the difference between Rich mindset and poor mindset? I mean in an ideal
world, it would be those that are wealthy got wealthy because they did their tremendous job of helping.
Helping others you invented a cure for cancer. I mean you say well we don't want anybody to be wealthy. Well don't you want people to invent things and come up with ideas don't you want Thomas Edison to be successful who invented all these things that make our lives better. What we don't want is people to get Wealthy by rigging the system by trying to limit Innovation limit competition all those things that we see going on in our city.
Stem which is what what we call cronyism and protection is that's what we're against all of it. Even if it makes us money we want a system as I said a system of equal rights in mutual benefit where people succeed by assisting each other. Yeah, and and so ideally that's the difference but that potential is in everybody. So for many people today, it's because
As they were throwaway people hmm. No one believed in him with this top down. Okay, we're going to tell you we're going to come in and tell you how to live your life and will give you money and you'll be all right. So your poverty will be less painful. Where's our job if you Empower people everybody can get out of poverty because everybody can contribute. So how do we find a way to help people contribute and we've done this by
- I started an organization here in Wichita called youth entrepeneurs 30 years ago. It was in one one school here in Wichita that was in a poor area. I mean and these kids. Well, I'll tell you story of one named April. This is after we had been doing just a few years and it will let me tell you this the program here is what we call three-dimensional education that is its hands on it.
Isn't just classroom it's doing and it starts with helping them find their gift turning it into value skills and then use it to succeed by contributing and and they started we help them start their own small business. And then the ones that have the best business plan then we give them some seed Capital not a lot maybe a thousand dollars or even a few hundred so they can start and they start doing it and and so the the
The top performers speak at graduation in this this girl April. I'll never forget her talk. She said I grew up in a terrible area. My mother was an addict. My my brother was had been shot. My sister was in prison and I thought it was hopeless. So I was failing everything in in high school and she said and then I heard about this class where I could get some money.
She's well, I'd like to get some money.
And she said I got in there and I found wow, I've got to have a winning business plan and a successful business. Wow. So I've got to to learn to read and write and present so I better start doing that and then if I have a business I got to do math to know what's working and what's not and then if I got up if I want customers and employees I've got
Learn to treat them with respect. So she said it changed my whole life and I went from failing everything to getting straight A's mom and then she got a scholarship to college and and I've kind of lost track of her but she had a successful business of her own. So that's wheat that we see that story. I could tell you dozens of stories like that. So that's the difference these people who grow up in these in these areas where they have bad education.
Anal system a bad criminal justice system all other problems people in the community hurting each other drive-by shootings and stuff. So they're Everybody's scared so they can join gangs out of self-defense. I mean, we've got to help them we have to have and we do we have social entrepreneurs working this that are transforming
lives as a former athlete. I'm a big fan of visualization of seeing the results. I want to create on the football field.
Basketball court in the future, but I'm always been a big fan of visualization every morning thinking about what what do I want to create for the day? How do I want to show up when something happens? How do I want to respond and react and for me I find that visualization has been really powerful for my life. Is this something that you do in business relationship or deal-making when you're about to negotiate a deal, do you visualize the outcome? How is that in your life if it's
a by I don't not with
If not, I mean in football and be the image or like a chess player visualize. Okay, the moves 10 down. What if it does - yeah, does this so that's a different. I don't have that but I have one for okay, what are the principles involved here? What are the concepts? And okay, what do we need to do to apply those Concepts apply these principles and we've because we find when we violate these.
Basic principles of human progress we fail mmm. We don't think we're doing it because we're going through the motions and we're using the right words and all stuff, but we're not really doing it. And so that's we need constantly have these checks and and why we need this challenge continue to challenge culture from everybody and so it like if your supervisor here and your people aren't challenging you would go help you now.
You're not getting their knowledge. So you cannot succeed. If you're only using your knowledge those people out there doing the work see waste and see better ways that that I will never see and even you as their immediate supervisor won't see I mean the thing to visualize is how do we better Empower our people? Mmm, so they come up with answers rather than me. And so those are the things I think
about when you are in your, you know late 20s,
30s did you ever dream or imagine that this is where your life would be now and this is where your business and visions and and nonprofits would be at is that something was that ever a dream or we just make some money and have a good family
and that's why I say this philosophy. These Concepts have enabled me to achieve more than I ever dreamed and totally transform my life and it's and we raised our children with this.
Philosophy, which I talk about in the book. I mean this is so powerful and then that to have the luxury of seeing what it's done for so many other people's lives is just I mean, you can tell I'm pumped up
about yeah, how do you you talked about your kids? I know you have a great relationship with them. How do you not for all the parents listening and watching who have generated since some success or some Financial abundance in their life?
How do you not screw up your kids when you have wealth? How do you keep them humble and grounded and hardworking and committed to growth and self actualization when they essentially have everything at their fingertips if they wanted it
well and I mean I learned that lesson for my father. He exemplified Integrity humility treating others respect hard work life long learner, like he would say things like son learn everything you can you never know when it'll come in handy.
Andy and on every one of these issues he would he would talk about and he would do it. I mean he worked all the time just like I do and he boy when we didn't treat somebody with respect or like we were waiting in line for a movie together and we'd say okay there it's kind of crooked here. Maybe we can move up. Well, he would come and grab us you go back to the back end of the line. Wow. He was a bear and you if you bragged about anything.
Or you would get smacked down and if you talk bad about any person. Oh man, I got the belt a few
so he was pretty
disciplined. So we I mean we weren't we were in a stuff on our kids but we talked about this every day. For example, the school had had the kind of the five valleys love courage Faith honor and loyalty so every night at dinner I would have each one to they could you
Could pick any one of these five and and then you would you need to tell me you how you exemplified that with a specific example. And at first they were frustrated cry this is starting in the first grade. And so that was a little intimidating but after they got into it, it's just like with our employees. Okay you go help others succeed you go create value for others and and obviously our best
Customers are those who reciprocate and who roared as for so that changed men every Sunday evening. I would take them in my library and play a tape for like 10 minutes. Whether it's Maslow Aristotle. I act all across all these disciplines that I had learned. I had tapes on him and played for about 10 minutes and I knew that was their attention span Max and so then we'd just have a discussion.
Ian and my daughter picked up on it, I mean she was eager she was doing my son was that he was more like me he
was let me go play Dad. Yeah. Yeah. I got
ya important things to do, but then he's gotten it and he and now because of this and this business of finding your gift and then developing and using it to help a boy. They are both doing it like my son has started a business here.
called Coke disruptive Technologies and he's now has investments in 10 companies and we do that through the philosophy of mutual benefit because there's all this money rushing in for hot Technologies, but we're preferred partner because we say we have all these businesses and some of them be a good pilot area where you can apply it and then our people will work with you to show you how make it work better because they'll be the ones applying
It and that's what we call Coke Labs. So our whole all our businesses. We look at laboratories Coke labs. And then in Stand Together, he's he's built these relationships with all these technology entrepreneurs. And so now they're working with us on stand together because they've made money and they want to have meaning in their lives so we can help them find what they're passionate about and
They can make the biggest contribution. So he's done that way beyond what I could and his age and then our daughter. Well, she she was frustrated for a long time. Like I was couldn't find her way. Now. She she started an organization called unlikely collaborators and they get together and she finds people who who are frustrated about something have a hang-up. Maybe they're better. So they go through these sessions will she
Starts it with telling about all her problems and her failures. And of course then that opens them up and they talk about it and she's totally dedicated to helping people and she's working with us. She's helping show us how what she's learned on on helping people in ways that we haven't used.
I'm curious about your non-negotiables on a daily basis. Do you have a list or things that are non-negotiable that you do?
Maybe it's you get up at a certain time or you always take a walk or you eat a certain way. Is there anything like that you do or you always give your wife a hug and a kiss? Is there something you always do
non-negotiable? Yeah, I work my mind and body every day. Hmm every day. I'm gonna learn something that I will help me contribute. I'm going to find a way to contribute and I'm going to work out.
Because I've got to stay in shape to do all the things I'm
doing. Yeah that so
those are those are my primaries and that's what keeps me alive.
What do you what do you feel is missing in your
life the ability to move our society better in a direction of equal rights and mutual benefit were people assist each other because
It's gotten so divided and these ad hominem attacks and no one talking about as we said about. Okay, let's find ways to work together to empower people help people rise particularly those who are starting to nothing rather than like an occupational license. Sure. Okay, we'll all the business people in the community get together. We're going to make these rules so tough that these people starting out can't compete with us.
I mean that's monstrous. Yeah, so that's one of our key issues. We got to get rid of these regulations like that that these protectionist crony is regulations that keep people back and slow down to Innovation undermine competition. Undermine
opportunity. Yeah. That's yeah, it's hard to hard to overcome all that and hard to make it all happen in a powerful way.
Yeah, so that's my biggest frustration. I
Like to wave a wand and bring it on. I'm not a utopian. I mean will never be perfect if move 10% in that direction like it reading history this this would make a massive change just 10% Improvement in those principles of human
progress. Yeah, and I'm curious. What do you think is the biggest fear you've had to overcome in the last 40 years. And what is the greatest fear? You still face
today? Well,
My my fear is always that tomorrow I won't be able to contribute. Mmm. I lose my what which I mean as you get older you lose some of your capacities and that I'll lose it and I won't be able to contribute because then I might as well you might as well just throw me in the ditch and and cover me
up. How do you manage that fear? Well who I
imagine is everyday contribute and if I
Contribute and I'm I can still offer something to help and I'm still making a difference then. Okay. I'm good to go. Yeah, I got it. Now. I got to work on how I do that tomorrow and maybe next year God willing. Yeah,
how do you how do you respond to people that might have a different perspective on life of than you where they say, you know Charles you just you work so hard for so long shouldn't
you relax and take a vacation more and retire more and just kind of enjoy life. What do you say to that type of mentality of you know, seeing things in a different way as opposed to wanting to show up daily learn grow workout develop support your community. What do you say to that perspective?
We try to help them find what they're passionate about and because everybody has some path they see Injustice or they see problems or they
Had people with bad health or people who've fallen on Hard Times. Okay, help them see how to help him and it isn't just okay. I'm going to give you money and you'll be alright. No, you've got to get put help them get meaning in their lives. And so so what we what we do, we have these thousands of social entrepreneurs, we work with and partner with will say, okay, here are all the things that
we're doing and and then have come to meetings where people who are doing it some who are dying who have terrible Health disease and only thing that's keeping them alive is feeling good about what they're doing. I mean I call them on the phone see how they're doing boy. There. Here's I'm working on this boy in this great. Let me tell you what we're doing. I mean, that's it. Do you want to exist or live? Mmm? That's what it's about. I'm
with you.
I agree with you and your brother and business partner passed away recently last year. I'm curious. What was the biggest lesson that he taught you about life.
That's a good that's a good question. I think what what he taught me is in his integrity and his loyalty. He had he had a different viewpoint on a lot of things than I did. I mean, I always talk about the Koch brothers. No we were too.
To largely different people but we supported each other we helped each other and and I think that that shows that people who are entirely different can still work together in a way where the OnePlus One is more than two. And that's what we did because he supported us throughout no matter what the challenges.
I know that you've been you fall in love with your wife.
One more every day since you met her I think over 51 years ago now, I'm not sure if that's
accurate. Well, no, we became an item 53 years ago, but we 53. I was slow playing it. So we've been married 48 years.
Okay, 53 years of knowing each other and I read in the book that you you're Smitten by her more and more every day. You're drawn to her energetically more and more every day and she's like a magnet. You said she draws you in she draws people.
In with her her
charms, he's a natural leader. Yeah. Yes. I mean in talk about multiple intelligence her ability to read herself and read others is phenomenal. She can meet somebody and have them analyzed up to take me six months to figure out I mean, so she helped me so much. That's what I say. I'm good at this narrow thing and she's good at almost everything. I'm not so we're so we really helped each other and then I've taught her.
Kind of against your will to start with all these ideas and Concepts and now boy she can use. Wow and Sheet everybody. She's with whether it's she loves to play tennis the Tennis Pros in the other players. She's they're teaching them every
day. What's the what's the greatest lesson? She's taught you and when did she teach you that lesson
gee? She taught me when I was dating because I was I was really into these eyes.
Is you know I had sophomore itís and so I'd go to a cocktail party and in like to get into a debate with somebody about all this stuff. I could slaughter them because they haven't really thought about it or steady and boy then I'd feel good. She said you dummy you're not going to convince anybody all they're gonna are you gonna do is make them hate you is that your goal? Okay. Hmm. I mean she did I learned stuff like that from her all the time.
And she said in you okay, you have these friends and stuff. You need a way to find out when they're trouble when they're having a problem and then offer your support. I'll show you care about them then and and I'm you know, I'm in my own world of Concepts and principles and going away. And so I don't even know they're they're having that and but she picks it up. And so then she gets me to open up. Yeah, so I mean it's just there.
So many things like that of everyday living that makes you human I mean because if you get too much into the concepts, you're not fully human. So she makes me human in our family. My father was a Dutchman his favorite saying was you can tell the Dutch but you can't tell him much and and and so we didn't have expression. There wasn't a lot of I love you and stuff. I mean we knew they loved care about us because they did everything.
To help us amount to something, but there wasn't a lot of that. So when our kids were born I couldn't say I love you. I'd say Papa loves you. Mmm. And now I can say I love you to anybody anybody I care
about
so she's I mean she's retrained me. Hmm. I mean, well, it's hard to break our old habits very hard. Yeah, it's work overtime and she's my mentor in that and she makes me work at it over time. So he
Change your habits. What's the thing you love about her the
most I think that she is a force of nature. She is fearless she will take on anybody. Like we were seated next to Schwarzenegger before he was governor and sheets meets him and says you Republicans and cover the dumbest people I've ever met.
Startled yell an Arnold. What do you say? How do you reply is afraid of him? She
won she was going right
after him. How did he respond? He was great. He told me the next day. It
was at Mike milken's cancer conference again, and he told me he said boy, your wife is something he said I've learned a lot from her.
Wow. Thanks. That's the
way she is. No she is a leader and fearless and she's got great judgment. Great.
Persistence and you don't need to worry about she's covering up. She's hiding her feelings or hiding way. She feels it's all out there because she's she's half Italian to so she has that Italian spirit. So we got the Dutch and Italian Heritage.
What do you for your for young entrepreneurs who are building their businesses who have started to accumulate some some extra income.
They have some savings now. They've got some more abundance. They've met their needs they've started to build a business. Maybe it's a small business growing now, but they've got some extra Financial Resources. What would you say is some of the best investments they should be making should it be thinking of investments in terms of diversification? Should it be back into your business? Should it be into personal growth? Should it be and what should people be investing in
general? What? I don't know whether you've seen my previous book I did.
The spring called transforming Koch Institute virtuous cycles of mutual benefit and that's a long-winded way of saying the way we've succeeded is applying these principles of human progress to figure out what capabilities we have that will create value for others. And what are the best opportunities the opportunities that will enable us to creep the most value with our capabilities and then
really improve and add to our capabilities to create value for others. And then as we do that that opens up new opportunities because we got capabilities do more and then when we get a new opportunity, it shows us we need to develop still another capability. So this is a never what I call that's why I called virtuous cycles of mutual benefit. And in in this this is just a hundred page book. I wrote really
As an employee manual because of the rate of change. I needed our people to think about we got to change faster. We got to drive creative destruction more intensely. We got Empower our people even better help them self-actualize. So we going to do everything we've been doing but at warp speed now, so I wrote this book to shoot to lay that out and what's made us successful and now we got to do this on steroids.
AIDS and that's what I'd recommend for every like we have interns they ask what?
Where should I focus I forget about the shiny object. Think what what do I have the kit? Where do I have the capabilities to create value in that? I'm going to be passionate about because you're not passionate about you're not going to put in the work and intensity to be successful and then develop that and then find the best opportunities and if you're not thrilled with them, if you're not turned on then you've got the wrong opportunity, so it's a trial.
An error process and then don't worry about making mistakes. If you never make a mistake, it shows you're not trying anything new you're never going to innovate because if you never fail at anything, you've never tried anything new. I mean, that's you've heard the Thomas Edison story. Yeah, and he said no, I haven't had any failures. I've learned 9,000 things that don't work right right here and to you I've had way more than 9,000 fail.
So you will put to
shame on that.
So you really appreciate and encourage failure is there well,
but only only if you have a well-designed experiment so you learn from your failure. It'll keep eating willy-nilly try and stuff. But first you first you start do I have the capability to succeed in this new Endeavor and and does it have the potential so
I can make a difference and then if you do that and design the experiment, so you're going to learn if it doesn't work why it didn't just like Edison did okay. I'm not going to do that anymore. I see what's wrong with that. So I'm going to try new
things. I'm curious. What's the skills you wish you would have learned whether that's I don't know a new language a sport a philosophy style. Is there anything you wish you would have learned in your life that you
haven't learned for me. I'm learning Spanish right now because for the last 20 years at the end of the year, I think what do I want to keep doing that? I haven't done because I'm scared of it. And so I'm finally going all-in on practicing. I've got a teacher this teaching me three times a week and I'm doing the best I can but I'm going to commit to it for as long as it takes and for me, I feel proud of just a little progress of making even though I know it's going to take a long time. But are there any skills like that? You wish you would have
learned? Oh, yeah. No, this is
When I desperately need and we all do is people who are negatively motivated who are better in are destructive to themselves or others. How do we reach them? How do we know only way we reach them is find out what's driving that and and and they don't made may not even know themselves. So to help them to find a better way to help.
Help them find that and that's what my daughter's working on help them find that so they can become contribution motivated and believe in themselves and succeed. That's what we're we're woefully short in and society as a whole because we think we got answers and it's not getting any better. So
you wish you would have learned that skill sooner that of
how I don't I don't I know I wish I'd learn it now.
Yeah, I hear you.
I mean where we have some success but boy took to make a difference in our society. We need much much more success in empowering people and the only way you do it. We you cannot Empower somebody you can help them Empower themselves. And unless they're willing they see the benefit of it and they're willing to go through the hard work. This is what Maslow said this. This is an
Putting this takes sweat over time and so for somebody to do something requires three things because dissatisfaction with your current including getting out of bed in the morning dissatisfaction with the current state vision of a better State and a path to get there. And so that's what we need. We need those three things. We've got to convince people of those three things. You'd be got to be dissatisfied because there's a better way for you and here's
a path to get there for it in a way that they can internalize and believe in so they're willing to make the
effort I hundred percent agree. And unfortunately, I've learned that it's very hard when people are in a okay situation or even a bad situation or a good situation for them to want to create drastic change. It's almost like we need a shake a wake-up call on near-death experience an injury a sickness a death in the family for us today.
Say this is not what I want anymore for my life. I need to create a new path moving forward which which for me is unfortunate because I wish we had the tools to accelerate this when things are not great, but we can manage it when they're good. But we're not seeing the ability to really grow. So that's why I've got a few final questions for you. But I this is why your book is so important for people right now believe in people bottom-up solutions for a top-down world.
Cuz you're really teaching the principles on how to do this for yourself and how to empower and Inspire other people in your life. Whether it's your immediate family your business your employees your team, whatever may be so I know that this book has incredible principles. I bookmarked a lot of the pages in here and the principles you have taught from your life very powerful from all the people that you who are the leaders in the world that you mentioned in here and featuring here and the lessons their teaching as well.
So I want people to get this book very inspiring. I have a few final questions for you. This question is called the three truths question. I asked everyone a hypothetical question at the end of every interview I do and it's called the three truths. So I hope Charles you're around for many many years, but I like you too. I like you to imagine you're a hundred years old as you want to be your a hundred fifty and you're still contributing to the world in a massive.
Hue and you've written ten more books whatever you want to do you continue to achieve your dreams but for whatever reason it's the last day for you and for whatever reason hypothetically everything you've created this interview your books all your content has to go with you to the next place wherever you go and you get to leave behind three things, you know to be true from all the lessons you've learned that you could only share these three.
Essence with the world. That's all we'd have to remember you by again hypothetical question. I'm curious. What would be those three truths for you? Well, it
starts with with Spinoza's philosophy that God reveals himself through the orderly Harmony of what exists and whether you believe in God or not you if you want to say nature, that's fine. Call it whatever you will but it is an ordered Universe all these truths are
Are interrelated and the reason they are true is because some other things are true. So these truths are the same. I mean, I mean we come up with these disciplines economics philosophy science all okay, they're all independent things. No, they're just because our minds are too feeble to grasp how they all interrelated. I mean take this.
Second law of Thermodynamics, which I'm sure you're studying probably reading about every day. I'm just kidding only a nerd like me with confidence. I realized it but the second law of Thermodynamics is it's called probably the most important law of nature. It's been called The Arrow of time and and it is in a closed system entropy increase that's uselessness and
Chaos, for example, you have a glass here and you've dropped it and you had those molecules in a form that you could use you drop it and break it and now it's going to take energy and knowledge to recreate that. And so you're going to consume those so entropy is increased because you've had to waste those.
To create that new glass. What does that have to do with the other disciplines? Well, you find that that's true not just in nature that's true for you as an individual. If you are closed system you close yourself off from the rest of the world. You try to do everything yourself and you're going to fall behind and probably die right quickly and that's true for an organization and that's true for
Society so what does that tell us tells us things about immigration tells us things about free speech and open inquiry. It tells us about trade. It relates to Ricardo's law of comparative advantage division of labor comparative advantage when that started to be allowed practice rather than everybody having to do everything themselves. That's when Prosperity started to take off in poverty started to decline in the 18th century. Hmm.
So I can't give you three truths because truth is of a whole and so that's my truth. And so I've spent my life trying to understand how it's ordered and how I can I can take advantage of these laws and apply them to make my life better and everyone else's life better. Hmm.
That's beautiful. When would you say you feel the most
loved right now? And you know why because we're doing
Order to help other people. Yeah, we're more effective at it. We're concentrating more and because with my state of mind and my mentality and my gift in most of those decades I was working on this before we got Stand Together We Built This philanthropic Community. I was focused on okay. I'm going to teach the theory where I'm going to you know, and support people are teaching the theory and showing the examples.
Through history. Well that that appeals to certain percentage of people but for most people they want to see how it helped Joe Trent transform their lives or house help Sally transform her life and when they see that wow, this works. I've seen it work you do you should have Met Sally before she's a different person. And so that's why we're having this success and the appeal to so
Many people across the whole ideological spectrum and getting people to work together and getting more and more people focused on Battle bottom-up
empowerment. I love this. I've got one final question for your child's. And before I ask the question, I want to again remind people they can get the book believe in people book.com. Go check it out. Timeless principles great stories some other great stories you have about how you have have really trained your
Aaron in some interesting ways to become better human beings when they were growing up which I found were her fascinating that you how to be a parent with your type of status and your type of wealth and really how to raise great kids just Timeless principles and wisdom in here on how to become a better human being and empower the people around you make sure you check this book out believe in people book.com. Charles don't acknowledge you for a moment before I ask the final question for your continual desire to help other.
All especially at your age your continual desire to be a lifelong learner as your dad trained you to be and taught you and inspire you to be your living that principle that he gave you so many years ago 80 years ago when he taught you that your consistency and humility your consistency. Enjoy the fact that you are joyful and contributing to people for me is really a great example. You remind me a lot of my father. So it's been it's been a pleasure to sit across from you virtually and hopefully I can come too.
Kansas someday and we can
connect. Yeah. Well, it's a it's a treat for me. I mean you and I seem to be on the same page
that's all weekend
discussion that you do say, I'm
were sparring. No. No, I'm I believe in people as well. I'm here to serve that's my mission to reach a hundred million people. We
thank you for doing what you're doing. Of
course. Yeah. I'm out. My final question is what is your definition of greatness?
As you know from the book might to number one Heroes.
Our Frederick Douglass and Viktor Frankl and that's because they in the most horrifying conditions one a slave in one and ended up in a Nazi death camp dedicated themselves to helping others. That's what when from Frederick Douglass was allowed to teach Sunday school. He had taught himself to read at age 8
Eight and and he started he started teaching others the other enslave people to read he says at last I found a way to contribute. Wow, and then he dead once he escaped and he became a social entrepreneur to well, he found his gift went to get all these elements are these for these people who are great people all the elements we've been talking about
he not only dedicated myself to others who had been enslaved but then in reconstruction to get rid of the Injustice there but then to eliminate Injustice for all others against women who had virtually no rights and against certain immigrants who were being persecuted in discriminated against he fought for justice for everybody and without Vengeance and this
Was the case so my to me the greatest people who are those who are of overcome the greatest obstacles and then fighting against these kind of injustices not to punish those who had commanded them but to have a world where these injustices cease to exist. Yeah. Those are those are the greatest
people. I love that trials. You're an inspiration and very grateful for your wisdom your time.
I know your time is very precious and so grateful for you and your definitions and and all your stories and lessons. Thank you
Charlie. Thank you. You were great bringing them out. You are a master at the art here my friend.
I hope it's shitty.
I hope you get hundreds of millions of
viewers are bitching.
Let's go for the
let's do it. Let's do it. I'll bid.
Thank you so much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it and you want to dive into another similar School of greatness episode check out the links in the podcast description. I've done more than 950 episodes of the past seven years and I want to bring you more inspiration just like this.
Thank you so much for listening to this episode my friend. I'm so grateful that you were here and spend some time. Give someone sent you this link to listen to this text them right now give them a call and let them know what you learned from this episode on the school of greatness. It's all about being a lifelong learner. It's something Charles talked about it's constantly being a learner because Learners are earners Learners continue to grow and develop themselves. And when you learn you're constantly becoming a greater version of yourself, and that's what this is all about. So text the friend who sent
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By subscribing and leaving a five star review and rating so go to Apple podcast right now and click that subscribe button. So you can stay up to date from the greatest lessons of the greatest minds of our time for free here on the school of greatness. And if you want weekly inspiration text it to you from me personally, then text me the word podcast right now 2614 350 3960 and want to leave you with this quote from the CEO of Facebook Sheryl Sandberg, who said
I cannot change what we are not aware of and once we are aware, we cannot help but change I'm so grateful for you for taking the time to learn today to grow your mind and to be aware of the things that you can do to change your life to change your patterns to change your habits to change your thoughts to support you in feeling loved in this moment. And if no one has told you lately you are loved you are worthy and you matter and I'm so grateful for you. You know what time it is. It's
down to go out there and do something great.
