#608: How Caffeine Hooks, Hurts, and Helps Us

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Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness podcast more than 80 percent of the world's population consumes the same psychostimulant every single day yet few of us know very much about our favorite Daily drug caffeine. My guest a will shed some light on.

Love affair with his pick-me-up substances name is Marie Carpenter. He's the author of caffeinated Howard daily habit helps hurts and hooks us. We began our discussion explain what caffeine does to our mind and body before delving into how caffeine consumption developed in different places all around the world and how the way we get our caffeine fix has evolved over the Millennia very high then discuss the popularity of coffee in America and how our grandparents actually drink way more coffee than we do today. We're explains how caffeinated sodas became a stimulating competitor to Coffee in the 19th century and how energy drinks became a huge business in the late.

80th Century Marine, I then discuss how you're probably ingesting more caffeine than you realize and what the generally recommended maximum amount to consume per day has we then get into whether caffeine can enhance athletic performance how much need to take for it to make a difference. We then discussed the overlooked benefits of caffeine as well as its downsides and we enter conversation with the question of whether caffeine is an addictive substance this episode. We'll get you thinking about your morning Joe differently after the show's over check out our show notes at a whim is / caffeinated.

All right, Murray Carpenter, welcome to the show. Thanks. Thanks for your interest and caffeine. So yeah, a couple of couple years ago, you published a book called caffeinated how our daily habit helps hurts and hooks us. So what's the story behind this book? You were just you had a caffeine habit. You want to explore? Why do I drink coffee every morning? Yeah. I mean, that's the not of it. I've been at caffeine drink her for decades and and I've been intrigued by it, you know the idea that

Most of us do consume caffeine daily and yet we don't think of it as a drug and it said that was sort of my point of entry is you know, what is it about this substance that makes us makes us want to consume it to drink coffee every day. So let's talk about okay, what is caffeine? So it is it a drug. It is a drug by any standard. Yeah. It's a drug. It's a simple drug. It's an alkaloid. It's a compound that emerged independently in many different plants all over the world. And so we

wherever caffeine seems to have evolved human seem to have figured out how to put it to use for their own purposes. So let's broadly speaking because we'll get in the details of what caffeine does to our minds and bodies but broadly speaking what what do we know that that caffeine does to our physiology and even our minds? Well, its primary mechanism is very very simple. There's a neurotransmitter called adenosine and in broadest terms what this does is

Lets us know that we're tired and caffeine looks remarkably like adenosine and is able to sit in the receptors for adenosine basically nudge them aside and not you know, not let adenosine sit there and you know, it's like it's sitting at the bar stool and adenosine has to walk away. And so, you know, it's this simple trick of sorts of pushing adenosine aside that that allows caffeine to work the magic we know so well, which is

Going to make us feel, you know, a little bit more stimulated a little bit more energetic. So that's energy. So like the caffeine itself isn't giving us energy. It's just blocking a neurotransmitter that makes us feel tired and we don't feel tired. Yeah. Yeah, that would be the simplest way to look at it. Yeah, okay and besides blocking that neurotransmitter any other effects that it has on our brain chemistry or physiology, you know, there are some more subtle things. It may enhance a calcium pump in that's in muscles. They might

subtly enhance your muscle strength, but you know by and large that that's the principal mechanism for which it's known and loved is its effect its relationship with adenosine. Okay. So you talked about how this is the substance. That's all its natural. It's found all around the world. Do we know when human beings figured out that if they ate a leaf or drink eight a nut that they would have this boost of energy from caffeine. We have a pretty good.

Sense that that is what we know it's been going on for thousands of years at least and I visited the place that we have the earliest known that word earliest evidence of human use of caffeine. And that's in a part of what is now Mexico and in Chiapas and basically there were there were people there who were consuming cacao who are consuming chocolatey drinks 3,000 years ago and so archaeologists have been able to

You know extract or find the caffeine in the residue of these chocolatey ranks 3,000 years ago. So we know that you know back then people were cultivating cacao a caffeinated product and they were consuming it. And so we know that that was going on 3000 years ago around the same time. It looks like tea culture probably emerged in China, you know by folklore the Chinese tea culture with might be as old as 5,000 years, but it seems to have been

You know around 3,000 years ago that that started happening. So, you know, those are some of the earliest indications that people were using caffeine. So this interesting is like these are independent discoveries, like multiple discoveries, like human beings just disparate groups figured this out on their own without any connection to each other and that to me is one of the most fascinating things. Yeah because we haven't even talked about coffee which all was another independent Discovery, but you know much later maybe only as recent as a thousand years ago the people and

Africa and Northern Africa were starting to then chew the Coffee Bean and eventually started to roast it and develop it into the beverage. We know now, but yeah there and additionally and in North America there were Native Americans who were consuming in t form Johann Holly, which is also caffeinated so it is odd because yeah, I think it's hard for us to imagine people sort of wandering around doing amateur.

Knee right like hey, I wonder if I chew on this what it'll do to me. But yeah people did it and they figured it out people been looking for like I mean, I guess being a human is tiring. It's exhausting. So we've been looking for something to help us out with that for thousands of years. Yeah. I think I think that's part of it and and and I think and we can talk about this more but it's I think one of the underestimated aspects of caffeine is it's not just a stimulant write it we know it for its stimulant effects.

Particularly at higher doses, but at lower doses it has a much more subtle and yet I think a very significant effect. It just makes you feel good. And so, you know, I think that's part of the appeal all over the world. So let's talk about different ways we get caffeine. So we talked about three ways already. So in Mexico, they were cacao. So it's chocolate and China. It was tea and then Africa, I mean, I think most people don't

realize is that there's anything I think what I love about this book,

is it really explores? Like what?

Where

caffeine comes from is the most people just take it for granted the Coffee Bean. It's originally from Africa, but I think most people think when they think coffee they think oh Juan Valdez South America. That was a transplant. It was a transplant. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah originally from Africa and then, you know spread through the Islamic world and you know didn't even probably get into Europe until maybe the 1600s. I mean, you know, it was it was kind of a slow migration and then eventually of course came over to the

US but yeah, the, you know, it's not native to many of what we consider the coffee growing regions. Yes. It's the plant is native to the African continent and has been transplanted worldwide. And of course, yeah, some of the coffee's that we are most fond of are now grown in South and Central America and let's talk about coffee consumption is that's a that's for most of American History that's been the primary caffeine delivery substance. So why why did coffee take root in America compared to other?

Really even in Europe. I mean, I was like T wasn't sort of the place where they got their caffeine from and how is coughing consumption changed throughout American history. Well, yeah in terms of how it took root. I don't know there have been there are some good historians who have gotten into this but it's certainly been an American Beverage, you know perceived as an American Beverage for quite some time, you know, there's some people who even think that at the time of the Boston Tea Party it was perceived as patriotic.

To not consume tea, but instead to consume coffee. So it's it's been at least for a long time throughout the history of America. It's been it's been a popular beverage increasing in popularity through the 1800s and through the early 1900s and then really peaking around the world war two years. And that's one of the things that really fascinated me to learn is that people, you know?

Our I guess our great grandparents generation that era they were consuming about twice as much coffee as we do now and that's you know, that was a real surprise to me. Well, that's what's going on there because I mean there's like a Starbucks and every corner now you can go to any convenience store get coffee powder that we're consuming less coffee than our great-grandparents. I know it's really counterintuitive and you're right. Yeah there it seems it seems like you can't, you know, you can't throw a rock without hitting a coffee shop or

I guess one way of looking at is we're sort of consuming coffee more conspicuously. Now, we're making a bigger deal out of it. We're paying more for it. But in the era that I'm talking about when people were drinking something like 53 gallons of coffee a year per capita. There was probably like just a coffee machine going in the break room. You know, there were there was a coffee pot or a percolator probably at the time just cranking in your house all the time people were just sort of habitually routinely

I mean cups of coffee and eventually what happened is coffee got displaced by other beverages that are more popular and one of those Beverages and you talk about this the rise of soda pop and caffeinated soda drinks. Yeah. That's that's that's a huge. You know, I think that would be the one that that you would say really if you look at the the graph of where of how coffee has declined and how sodas Coke Etc have grown they pretty much

No, you can you can see that one is replacing the other and the lines crossed probably around the early 70s and that you know, that that's a big part of it is we're consuming a lot more Coca-Cola or a lot more soda and general than we did and you know the late 40s early 50s and that in part displaced coffee drinking and you know to be clear there's been a something of a rebound like over the last 15-20 years during this discussion.

Golden age of coffee that we were talking about, you know, but the Starbucks and every corner certainly I think per capita our coffee consumption has increased somewhat but still we're you know, we're pie Cruz compared to what people were doing in the forties and fifties and imagine the coffee the 40s and 50s wasn't that great. They weren't doing like these exotic roast. It was just like, all right. You got Folgers instant coffee. There you go. Yeah, and I think to our palates today it probably wouldn't have been good at all and you know, the coffee beans were probably enough talk to a few people about this Earth.

There you could probably get some really good coffees back then but part of it has to do with how it was processed. I mean, yeah, like if you if you were getting the big can of Maxwell House or folders that you know, just a commercial blend it would be roasted far away from you long before you consumed it ground putting a can and then you know, it may be weeks months before you even crack the can and so yeah, the coffee wouldn't have even even even if it was a great Bean that was being rolled.

Said it's not going to taste the same as a good being that you're there was freshly roasted and you'd that you ground just before you consumed it and additionally, you know, people were percolating coffee and you know, some people like percolating percolator copy. I've given given it a hard time before and people rush to its defense but it over extract it tends to over extract the flavors. And so this would be like if you're if you're using a comb filter, you know, and and after you

you've put the right amount of coffee through you think oh, I'm not going to put any more coffee and I'm just going to like try to get that last bit out of there and it kind of has this like funky stale flavor. I think that that's part of what percolators did right so coffee was the primary source of caffeine for Americans for a long time, but then starting in the late 19th century coffee began having competitor in the form of caffeinated sodas like Coca-Cola. What I think is interesting is when Soda of caffeinated soda first came out on the sea.

In the temperance movement for example touted it as a healthier alternative to alcohol and really sing its Praises but eventually drinks like Coke and other caffeinated sodas they came in for some criticism for their caffeine content. And what's interesting. Is that coffee, even though I had caffeine didn't get the same amount as criticism as caffeinated soda, what was going on there? Yeah. Well so coke went through an interesting Evolution, you know, it was first launched is like a patent medicine with wine.

And you know a little bit of cocaine, you know, I think it would have been a pretty powerful beverage for most of us, but then eventually it became a Temperance beverage. I'm it was actually marketed that way and it was mostly then, you know sugar or you know, sweetness and caffeine and what happened was in the early 1900s people were beginning to be concerned about the caffeine in the product and just about the product in general and about the fact that it might be addictive and the might be

Could it be kids and there was a hard-charging regulator in the Bureau of chemistry, which was basically the precursor to the FDA and he basically took challenged Coca-Cola in a court case over their use of caffeine and said it was an adulterated substance that it was marketed to children that it was addictive. And so that was like one of the early regulatory challenges to cocaine to sorry not to cocaine to Coca-Cola and to so the soda industry.

And as you hardly the book, I didn't know this book The Early Coca-Cola's they had the same amount of caffeine is like a modern-day Red Bull that surprised me too. Yeah, and I was glad there were some good statistics that I could mind to find that that all came out of this court case because they were able to you know, detail the constituents of the early Coca-Cola. Yeah, so it had more caffeine and and the way I look at it is Coca-Cola invented the energy drink, you know, something like 80 years before Red Bull did as a result of the court case and and I

I've scoured Coca-Cola's archives and every every other historical account I can find so I don't know. I've never heard Coca-Cola say that this is what we did, but sometime during that court case, it appears that they reduced the caffeine content and that it was probably further further reduced through the 1930s. So that original sort of energy drink Coke that was that would have been very much akin to a modern Red Bull was pretty much gone by

At least the 20s or 30s, it's something I like to is that even then like Coca-Cola and some of the other soda manufacturers they understood. I mean, it sounded kind of like some of like the tobacco stuff that we saw in the 80s and 90s where the pop makers like, they'd say the caffeine was there just for flavor. But like they knew that it actually was a stimulant and kind of addicted people but they didn't want to say that because then it would you know, they have to like sort of marketed as a drug basically and I think that's the case and I and I think

No to their credit. I mean one one of the arguments at that time is what would you do next regulate coffee and the argument of course and it's a valid argument coffee has more caffeine than this beverage. So why would it be fair to regulate Coca-Cola and not coffee? But I think that's been a question, you know through the years and every time the regulatory battles heat up again, and this happened in the 1980s and happened to you. No more recently with energy drinks. The question is this is to what degree does

as caffeine the drug Drive the consumption, you know, the purchase pattern of these products of sodas and of energy drinks and it's a question that I don't think has been adequately resolved, you know, even today but you do highlight research where they've done studies on that where they'll give people like a soda that has caffeine and not caffeine and they don't tell what was but like people seem to be drawn to the beverage with caffeine in it. Yeah, and it increases you know, the term is liking it is

Creases that you know the liking of the product there's another term of reinforcement. So, you know the caffeine reinforces the purchase of the product. So in other words, if you if you reach for a soda that's caffeinated you're going to tend to like it and you're be more inclined to reach for it next time then for a non-caffeinated product. And I think you know the social science again or the science of the the metabolic science. We need more of that and it would be good to see more of that.

At but I think something that we overlooked is the market has spoken on this. I mean eight of the top 10 selling sodas are caffeinated if you want to sell a beverage in America and you want it to be or you know all over the world you want to be successful. I think you know adding caffeine is a pretty sure bet that's hard to find post them these days you can't really find that stuff anymore. Yeah, or even you know caffeine free Coke and so, you know, some people do like Sprite and and some people like

But you know aside from that, you know, the the call is the Diet Cokes Mountain Dew Diet Mountain Dew all of the top sellers, you know, dr. Pepper. They're all caffeinated. We're gonna take a quick break for a word from our sponsors as an insurance Marketplace policy. Genius talks a lot about how unpredictable the future is and right now life is unpredictable in scary, but they're enough Brands out there telling you how we're all in this together instead here are three unpredictably positive things from April number one thousands of dogs and cats Across America found new homes. Number two. Everyone is a baker now, maybe

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And now back to the show. So soda pop caffeinated soda beverages they over to a coffee consumption for the sort of the source of caffeine in like the 70s but caffeinated soda has been overcome by energy drinks. This is like something that started like in the 90s. Let's talk about the history. This is really interesting. When did energy drink start taking off like this idea that there's a drink that's just designed for energy like coffee and Coke. They might have been marketed as it sort of a pick me up at the never said this will give you energy one of this idea that you have it.

Drink just for energy. Yeah, I would say the late 90s for sure early 2000s this this is starting to become a trend and you know 2005 from there on I would say Red Bull was really really starting to take off and and you're right. It's a different thing. It's not just saying. Oh, you know, this is a refreshing beverage or this is a stimulating beverages like, you know here have this it will give you energy. It was it was a Brazen very direct marketing, you know.

Oh of the caffeine of the stimulating effect of the drink and it was something new at the time. No, I know from my own personal experience like 2,000 that year 2000. I was a senior in high school. And I remember that's kind of when Red Bull came out. I think Red Bull came out in the late 90s, but I started before my football games. I would get to Red Bulls one was to drink before the the game and the other was a drink at halftime. That was like the first time ever like I consumed a beverage just for performance before I would drink Coke and Mountain Dew because it just tasted.

Good, but here I was 17 years old buying a drink soda and could enhance my performance. Wow, that's it. You're an early adopter really because it had a lot of people had if we're not yet consuming energy drinks at the time and was there some of these energy drinks is that in the beginning they often downplayed the caffeine in their products and instead they promoted like the other ingredients like the guarin are what are the other weird supplements they have in their why did they downplay the caffeine? Yeah, that's that's a really important point. I think they downplayed the caffeine because

as the regulatory framework had been fraud it had never been resolved very much. I mean FDA basically had considered caffeine generally recognized as safe. That's one of their their terms when it was used in Cola type beverages so is for very specific uses and I think what Red Bull did was they kind of nudge the door open? They're like, hey, what if we, you know marketed this highly or more caffeinated beverage and just see what happens.

And it became wildly successful and that's the you know, then other energy drink manufacturers came in behind it and they're like, well, you know, nobody has stopped Red Bull the FDA hasn't done anything. I guess this must be okay, and then gradually you have seen this Evolution where you know caffeine was not really talked about. Yeah, it was, you know, chlorine or whatever all these other products when you know caffeine is really the the so-called energy product in any of these the energy ingredient and any of these

These drinks but more recently you have seen bottlers more brazenly or more. Openly I'd say using the word caffeine on their products and this is sort of in this the energy drinks allows you a lot of people see the weird murky World of Food and Drug regulation because in a lot of in the early days a lot of these energy drinks, they wouldn't put the caffeine content like on the thing itself. And so they say there's like there's a proprietary energy blend.

I had

no clue like how much caffeine you're getting in your energy shot and it's because they were marketing themselves as a supplement and because they Market themselves as a supplement there is less stringent standards if if they had marketed themselves as a beverage a drink. Yeah, you're absolutely right and FDA did Issue some guidance on that basically, you know saying if something is consumed like a beverage, you know, then it should be marketed as a beverage. I mean if it's if it's a 12-ounce energy

ink and it's in the cooler, you know next to the sodas. Is that really a supplement or or is it essentially a more caffeinated soda, you know and I think FDA came down on the side of the ladder. So yeah, that was that was one big change and you are seeing increasingly I would say you're seeing improved caffeine labeling it it still leaves a lot to be desired. I mean, I you still need virtually need a magnifying glass in some cases to see how much caffeine is in a product. But at least you know if you're looking for it you

Usually find it. One of the things are very interesting is during the Super Bowl this year Coca-Cola launched a new in the u.s. They've launched elsewhere earlier a new drink called Coca-Cola energy. I mean, you know very distinctly it's an energy drink and it's got you know, the Coca-Cola brand on it. So this is something that they hadn't really done before they had purchased a share in Monster and they had a distribution deal. So, you know, Coca-Cola was still sort of keeping the energy drink thing at arm's length, but now they've got

This Coca-Cola energy and on the can it says guarana B vitamins caffeine. I mean right in the front. So it's an example of how you know, Coca-Cola has tiptoed around to to this to embracing energy. And and notably this has you know in the the pretty much the same caffeine concentration is there 1909 beverage although now, it's coming in, you know a 12-ounce cans. So it has I don't know 118 milligrams. It's almost the exact shape of a can.

And caffeine content of a Red Bull but it all went full circle. It all went full circle. Yeah, that's my point. And and and I think you know to your point about people, you know bottlers not using the term caffeine. I think they're coming around to it. I think Coca-Cola understands the value now of touting caffeine or so, let's talk about figuring out how much caffeine you consume on a daily base armor a couple years ago. I sat down to think about you know, how much caffeine I consume on a daily basis and I was like Godsmack. I was actually I was

Zooming more than I thought I was so why is it so hard for people to know how much caffeine they're consuming on a daily basis? And and this is something that I became endlessly fascinated with it's very difficult. It's very difficult for a couple of reasons one because we consume caffeine often in you know, many different products throughout the day so many of us drink coffee in the morning. What I came to realize a lot of people are very common pattern is to have coffee in the morning and then, you know an energy drink or soda either at me.

Morning, or mid-afternoon or with lunch? And so yeah, there's there's a number of different ways that you can get your caffeine. Another challenge is that you know, particularly with coffee the caffeine content can vary widely. I mean, so some people people like to say, you know, how much coffee do you drink and people say I drink a cup of day well that you know, that's an absolutely worth this metric. I mean a cup could be a 5-ounce week cup they could have, you know, 80 milligrams of coffee or it could be

You know like a 16-ounce cup from Starbucks that might have 325 milligrams of coffee. So there's just a tremendous variation and then you know on top of this I think we don't really think of caffeine in terms of milligrams. We don't really, you know, if someone says how much caffeine do you consume you say? Well, you know, I drink a soda or you know, I drink a cup of coffee, but you don't say well, you know, I drink 200 to 300 milligrams, but I think you really kind of do have to total up the milligrams.

You probably did when you were trying to understand your own caffeine consumption in order to get a handle on how much you're consuming. Do we have any like a rough idea like the average amount of caffeine people are consuming on a daily basis. I'd have to say, you know average for coffee drinkers. They're probably in the range of 250 to 300 milligrams. That's that would be my guess and and most people in the US are consuming coffee regularly. So, you know coffee Remains the and this is a weird thing to understand coffee remains our primary.

Resource of capping we're consuming more caffeine from coffee than from any other beverage but by ounces, you know by by actually, you know drinks daily were consuming more soda pop but the soda it has less caffeine. So we're by volume. We're consuming more soft drinks, but by caffeine, we're still getting most of our caffeine from coffee. Gotcha. And like what's the recommended amount from Health experts on like what is okay caffeine consumption for an average person?

And here to this is an area that's kind of soft. But most people suggest not going above 400 milligrams and this is going to vary a lot from person to person because some people are just much more caffeine sensitive than others and but you know 400 milligrams seems to be sort of a level that most people are saying yeah, you know up to 400 milligrams your okay beyond that, you know, maybe back off. Well, that's interesting point some people as if there's a genetic component to caffeine some people process caffeine a lot faster.

Than other people so they could drink a cup of coffee and it like right before bed and then go right to sleep wouldn't affect them. Another person does the same thing they would be up all night. You're absolutely right. Yeah, it's highly variable and certainly seems to be genetic which is to say, you know, like I know a family of people there and they're all this way the day that they'll drink a pot of coffee with dinner, you know, and then just trundled off to bed. But yeah, some people metabolize caffeine quickly some people metabolize it slowly and some

People are really on the low end of you know are really quite sensitive to caffeine and this is something that I kind of didn't I don't know. I think I discounted it until I did the research for the book but even what might be like a very small amount of Trace amount that's left in a cup of decaf maybe 12 milligrams of caffeine that could be enough for someone who's very caffeine sensitive to really make them feel, you know, uncomfortable that that they would really get a boost out of that. So yeah we are

Goooal reactions to caffeine varies dramatically. So yo the part of the book I thought was really interesting you talked about different groups of people researching and exploring how caffeine can be used to enhance performance you talk about the military. The military is basically putting caffeine and everything surprising stuff like even food they're putting caffeine in but the thing that I'd like to focus on is sports because I think that's where most people if they're athletic. Anyway, they think that sort of natural now, it's like well, you know,

I need a boost. I have a little bit of caffeine before I do my work out to kind of give me that extra pep. What does the research say about caffeine and how it enhances athletic performance. Well, it backs up that that perception you're talking about the idea that yeah, you know if I want to if I want to do well or as you would have in high school with during football if I want to do well I might do a little better caffeinated and it looks like the optimal dose for most people would be like

three to six milligrams of caffeine per kilo of body weight and this could be a fair amount for you know, a bigger person, you know, maybe 300 milligrams of caffeine or you know, say a couple of strong 12 ounce cups of coffee if that's the way you wanted to take it before your athletic event that I think the more notable thing about this is that for most athletic events and most of the research has been on endurance events, but say if you were going to run an hour race

Thinking versus a placebo would probably improve your time between one to three percent in that race. And that's I mean that's obviously a winning margin in many athletic events. And that's why you're seeing so many athletic specific products, you know gels and Beverages and things for people to consume while they're doing, you know, triathlons or Etc. I was surprised the amount of like caffeine you need the dosage for caffeine. So I think the example the example you gave in your book was an 80 kilo athlete which is about a hundred Seventy-Six.

Pounds so if you want to take six milligrams per kilogram, that would be 480 milligrams of caffeine, which is like double with like the average that's like and at one time you can assume that once and then do your thing. I mean if you weigh 200 pounds that's going to be insane like how much caffeine you got to back to get, you know, get that effect that is and that's the high end but you're still going to get a good effect. I think in the 3 to 5 milligrams per kilo range, so but yeah, that is to say yeah that would that would be a huge amount and and here, you know, the researchers said

I spoke with talked about this you have to weigh the benefits and possibly the costs if you're actually getting you know, like stressed and anxious or having some like GI like stomach upset from the caffeine you're consuming obviously, you know, that's too much and that's going to it's going to eliminate any benefit you might have gotten from the caffeine but you know, the short answer is yes some caffeine and probably a moderate dose will improve for most people their athletic performance. So, what is the

The what's the regulations of caffeine? Oh, so it enhances your performance most drugs that enhance performance and Athletics talking about the Olympics tough football like those are banned or they're they're restricted somehow. Why isn't caffeine? Why isn't that been regulated in sports? And this too is to me quite fascinating. The reason is that the same dosage the same, you know, therapeutic dosage that would that would give you an athletic advantage is very much in the range.

Of the average Americans daily consumption. So, you know if you consider that it's basically saying okay most people are consuming caffeine daily, you know, maybe 300 milligrams but for an athletic event, you can't do that. And so I think unlike you know testosterone or any any other sort of whatever you might use as to to dope with I think caffeine is really quite in a category by itself that that makes its regulation fraud and as

I said earlier it's going to affect people differently. So someone might boost the performance a lot. Someone could take that same amount of caffeine and not have any performance enhancement. That's true. Yeah, and so it's going to vary and and I think most you know, most professional or high-end amateur athletes have figured out their caffeine strategy. And I think this has changed an awful lot over the last 30 years, you know, I used to race bikes in the 80s and and people had a sense that you know, if you had a strong like a short strong cup of coffee at some

Point, you know that that might help you in a race or people would say, oh I drink Coke or I drink Mountain Dew but I think people are much much more have a much more finely tuned sense of both what caffeine does when it does when it does help them and how best to consume it during a race than you know, even that recently. Yeah. I loved how you thought you talked to some of these high-performance athletes and how they would they were very systematic about their caffeine. They'd have something before and then along the race, they'd have a gel that they would you know throwback.

And get that so they had a tie in perfectly and when they're going to do this. Yeah, I think so and and and I think it makes sense. I mean because these are the same people who are very conscientious about everything that they're eating on race day and and in the days prior, so why not caffeine and and I think a lot of people find that unseemly because you know, there is at least I don't know sort of a moral distinction between yeah, maybe they're consuming the same amount of caffeine you and I would be if we're at a coffee shop, but they're

Wayne at specifically to enhance their performance and you know that does sort of it's an ethical challenge, but I think for most people their kind of okay with that. Alright, so for basic, you know, so we can boil your athletes if you're doing a 5k or 15K or you I've also seen research that caffeine connect and can help with weight lifting to strength training actually increases performance there. You're looking about 3 milligrams per kilogram of body weight and the high-end would

Be like 8 or 6 Kilograms. Yeah, I would say six. You probably wouldn't want to go beyond six. But yeah, something like that and and you would want to consume it in a way that it wasn't going to you know, that it wasn't going to interfere with your performance in any other way. I mean, obviously you're not going to stand there or you know, the beginning of a 10K and you know have a big cup of Starbucks probably but, you know, maybe an hour before to have a strong cup of coffee would probably be quite helpful. Alright, so we know that caffeine.

Pop's is not feel tired. It also just makes us feel good. Generally after you have some where there's some surprising benefits of caffeine. You came across as you research this book. There are there's some unusual ones and again, you know, I mentioned some of these with trepidation because you need I think in all cases we need more research. There are some associations with a reduced risk of suicide. There's a suggestion that they did people who consume more caffeine have a lower

incidence of basal cell skin cancers certainly caffeinated coffee is associated with lower risk of diabetes and may be associated with a decreased incidence of Parkinson's disease and I mean coffee itself it, you know, there's been more research recently, you know coffee drinking caffeinated coffee drinking is actually Associated now with with, you know, reduced risk of mortality people who consume caffeinated coffee have a decreased risk.