The war in Ukraine could change everything | Yuval Noah Harari

It's TED Talks daily. I'm your host, Elise. You the world is watching as Russia invades neighboring Ukraine, it feels overwhelming and devastating to witness what is happening?

So to help us understand this

conflict and the global Stakes, historian and author. You've all know a Harari puts it into context. His insights are from a tad membership conversation with Ted's Global curator Bruno, giussani with

Students also coming in from the digital

At the end of day, 6 of the war in Ukraine or more correctly of the Russian invasion of Ukraine launched from the 24th of February by President Vladimir Putin. We are all shocked and saddened by the events, and by the human suffering they are causing. And as we speak, really a Russian military Convoy is headed towards. Kiev other Ukrainian cities are being bombarded, half a million ukrainians have already fled.

Only bordering countries and much more. It's still early days and it's difficult to predict how the situation will will evolve even just in the next few hours, but this is a war that should concern everyone everywhere. And so today this Tad membership conversation. We want to try to give it a broader context with our guests historian and author, you Val, Noah Harari URL.

Welcome.

Hello. Thank you for inviting me.

I want to start from Ukraine itself and its particular place between the East and the West. What do we need to know about Ukraine to understand this war? And what's at stake?

The most crucial thing to know is that ukrainians are not Russians and that Ukraine is an ancient independent nation. Ukraine has a history of more than 1,000 years. Kiev was a major metropolis and Cultural Center when Moscow was

Even the village for most of these Thousand Years Kiev was not ruled by Moscow. They were not part of the same political entity for centuries. Kiev was looking West words and was a part of a union with Lithuania and Poland until it was eventually conquered and absorbed by the Russian Empire, by the tsarist Empire, but even after that ukrainians, remained separate people,

Oil to a large extent and it's important to know that because this is really what is at stake in this war, the key issue of the war at least for President Putin, is whether Ukraine is an independent nation whether it is a nation at all. He has this fantasy. That Ukraine isn't a nation that Ukraine is just a part of Russia that ukrainians are Russians in his fantasy. Ukrainians are Russian.

That wants to be back in the fold of Mother Russia and that the only ones preventing it is a very small gang at the top which he portrays as Nazis, even if the president is Jewish. But okay, a Nazi Jew and his belief was at least that he just needs to invade. The Lansky, will flee. The, the government will collapse.

Oops, the Army would lay down its arms and the Ukrainian people would welcome the Russian liberators throwing flowers on them.

And this fantasy has been shuttered already. The Lansky hasn't fled. The Ukrainian. Army is fighting and Ukrainian people is not throwing flowers on the Russian tanks. It's throwing Molotov

Cocktails. So let's let's let's unpack that and maybe take the different pieces one by one. So Ukraine has a long history of being dominating occupied you mention that far but also the Soviet Union Hitler's armies. It also had a as a long history of me.

Trust of authority and of resistance, which go some way to explain the, the current strong resistance that the Russians are encountering, Anne Applebaum, the journalist, even suggest that this mistrust this resistance to Authority is the very essence of Ukraine. - do you

agree. We did see in the last 30 years, ukrainians twice rising in Revolt. When there was a danger of an authoritarian regime being established once in 2004 1,

With Once in 2013. And when I was in Kiev, a few years ago, what really struck me was this very strong feeling of the desire for Independence and for democracy and I remember walking around this Museum of the, of the revolution of 2013, 2014, and seeing these images like these two elderly women who were bringing sandwiches.

To the to the demonstrators to the fighters. They that they did, they couldn't throw stones and they couldn't do anything else. So they prepared sandwiches and brought this huge tray full of sandwiches to the demonstrators. And this yes, this is the kind of spirit that inspires not just the ukrainians, but everybody who is now watching what is happening there,

help me, help me understand the actual nature of the of the threat here in terms of Russia moving into Ukraine. So in your last book,

Look when you write about Russia, if described the Russian model as I quote, not a coherent way. Tickle, political ideology, but rather a sort of practice of monopolizing power and wealth by a small group at the top. But then, in his actions against Ukraine, Putin. In the last few weeks, seems to move very much by an ideology and LG of Empire of denial of Ukraine's, right to exist. As you as you mentioned, what does change in the four years? Since you wrote that book,

Real dream was always there. But you know, Empires are often the creation of a very small gang of people at the top. I don't think the Russian people is interested in this War. I don't think that the Russian people wants to conquer Ukraine of to slaughter. The citizens of Kiev. It's all coming from the top, so that there is no change there. I mean, when you look at the Soviet Union, you can say that they're the was this Mass ideology which was

Is shared by a large proportion, of some proportion of the population. You don't see this now, you know, Russia is a very, it's a very rich country rich in resources, but most people are very poor. Their standard of living is very, very low because all the world and power is kind of sucked by the people of the top and very little is left for everybody else. So it's not, I don't think it is.

Society, where the masses are part of this kind of ideological project, they're being ruled from the top and you have this classic Imperial situation, when the emperor, which controls the largest country in the world feels that a, this is not enough. I need more.

And sends his army to capture it, to extent the empire.

I said at the beginning that is difficult, of course, to make Provisions. But yesterday you published an article in the guardian titled, why Putin has already lost this war, please explain.

Well, one thing should be very clear. I don't mean to say that is going to suffer an immediate military defeat. He definitely has the military power to conquer keeve and perhaps the whole of Ukraine. Unfortunately, we might see this, but his long-term goal that horosho.

Now, of the war is to deny the existence of the Ukrainian nation and to absorb it into Russia. And to do that. It's not enough to conquer Ukraine. You also need to hold it. And it's all based on this Fantasy on this gamble that most of the population in Ukraine would agree to this, would even welcome this. And we already know that this is not true that the

The ukrainians are a very real Nation. They are fiercely independent. They don't want to be part of Russia. They will fight like hell, and in the long run. Again, you can conquer a country, but as the Russians learned in Afghanistan, is the Americans learned also in Afghanistan. Also in Iraq, it's much harder to hold the country. And again, you know, the big question mark before the war was always this.

Before the war started, many things were already known. Everybody knew that the Russian army is much stronger than the Ukrainian Army. Everybody knew that NATO will not send Armed Forces into Ukraine troops into Ukraine. Everybody knew that the West. The Europeans would be hesitant about imposing, too strict a sanction regime for fear of being hurt by themselves. And this was the basis for proteins War plan, but there was one

Big unknown. Nobody could say for sure how the Ukrainian people would react. And there was always the option that may be put in his fantasy would come true. Maybe the Russians will mulching. The Lansky will Flow Wolf. Would flee? Maybe the Ukrainian Army would just copy too late. And the population would not do much. This was always an option.

And now we know this was just fantasy. Now, we know that the ukrainians are fighting, they will fight, and this derails, the whole rationale of putting this war because you can conquer the country, maybe, but you won't be able to absorb Ukraine back into Russia. The only thing is accomplishing his planting seeds of hatred.

In the hearts of every Ukraine, every Ukrainian being killed every day. This war continues is more seeds of hatred. That me right last for Generations, the ukrainians and Russians didn't hate each other before putting there are siblings. Now, he's making them enemies and if he continues, this will be his legacy.

We're going to talk about that again, later better, you know, at the same time, putting it's a victory, right? The cost, the human economic political cost of this war, even not even a week in is already astronomical. So, to justify it and also to remind, by the way, a viable leader at the head of Russia, Putin needs to win and even win convincingly. So, how, how do we Square these things?

I don't know. I mean, the fact that you need to win doesn't mean that you can do.

A lot of political leaders need to win and sometimes they lose, he could stop the wall declare that he won and say that the I don't know that, that recognizing luhansk and Donetsk, by by the Russians. It is what he really wanted all along in the achieve this. Maybe they Kabul disagreement or that. I don't know. This is the job of politicians. I'm not, and I'm not a politician, but I can, I can tell you that. I hope for the sake of everybody ukrainians.

Russians and the whole of humanity that this war stops immediately. Because if it doesn't, it's not only the ukrainians and the Russians that will suffer terribly. Everybody will suffer

terribly if this war continues.

Explain

Because of the shock waves, destabilizing the whole world. Let's start with the bottom line budgets. We have been living in an amazing era of Peace in the last few decades and it wasn't some kind of hippie fantasy. You saw it in the bottom line, you solve it in the budgets, in Europe in the European Union, the average defense budget of EU members was around three percent of government budget, what we saw.

Ready. Within a few days, Germany doubles, its military budget in a day and I'm not against it given what they are facing. It's reasonable for the Germans for the poor, for the all of Europe to double their budgets and you see other countries around the world doing the same thing. But this is you know, this is a race to the bottom when they double their budgets, other countries look and feel unsecured and double their budgets, so they have to double them again and triple them.

M, and the money that should go to healthcare. That should go to education. That should go to fight climate change. This money will now go to tanks two missiles to fighting Wars. So there is less health care for everybody and there is maybe no solution to climate change because the money goes to tanks. And in this way, even if you live in Australia, even if you live in Brazil, you will feel the repercussions.

Ends of this war, unless Healthcare in deteriorating. Ecological crisis, in many other things, again, another very central question is technology. We are on the verge. We're already in the middle actually of new technological arms races in fields, like artificial intelligence, and we need Global agreement about how to regulate Ai and prevent the worst scenario.

Rose, how can we get a global agreement on a? I when you have a new Cold War and you hot War. So in this field to all hopes of stopping, the AI arms race will go up in smoke if this war continues. So again, everybody around the world would feel the consequences in in many ways. This is much much bigger than just another regional conflict.

If one of Putin's goals here is to divide Europe to weaken the transatlantic Alliance and the global liberal order. It seems to kind of accidentally have revitalized all of them in a, in a funk lately, USU relations and never been so close in many years. And, and so, how do you, how do you read that?

Well, again, in this sense, he already also lost the war if his aim was to divide Europe to divide, NATO. He's achieved exactly the opposite. I mean, I was amazed by

How quick, how strong, and how unanimous the European reaction was? I think the European surprised themselves you even see countries like Finland and Sweden sending arms to Ukraine and closing their airspace. They didn't even put in the Cold War. It's really amazing to see it. I think another very important thing is what has been dividing the West over the several years now.

It's what people termed, the culture War, the culture war between left and right between conservatives and liberals. And I think this war can be an opportunity to end the culture war with in the west to make peace in the culture wall. First of all, because you suddenly realize we are all in this together. There are much bigger things in the world than these arguments between left and right.

In the western democracies. And it's a it's a reminder that we need to stand United. To protect Western liberal democracies, but it's deeper than that. Much of the argument between left and right seemed to be in terms of a contradiction between liberalism and nationalism like you need to choose and the right goes with nationalism and the left goal is more liberalism and Ukraine is a reminder that no the

To actually go together, historically, nationalism, and liberalism are not opposites. They are not enemies. They are friends. They go together. They meet around the central value of freedom of Liberty and to see a nation fighting for its survival, fighting from its freed for its freedom. You see it on Fox news, or you see it in CNN. And yes, they tell us a story a little differently, but they suddenly

only tell the seasons, same reality and they find common ground. And the common ground is to understand that nationalism is not about hating minorities or hating foreigners. It's about loving your compatriots.

And reaching peaceful agreement about how we want to run our country together. And I hope that seeing what is happening would help to end the culture war in the west. And if this happens, we don't need to worry about anything, you know, when you look at the real Power Balance, if the Europeans stick together, if the Americans within the European stick together and

Stop this culture wall and stop tearing themselves apart. They have absolutely nothing to fear the Russians or anybody else.

Let me zoom out for a second and get a larger perspective. You wrote another say last week in The Economist and you argue that what's a stake in Ukraine is and I quote you the direction of human history because that puts at risk the what you call the greatest political and moral achievement of modern civilization, which is

Is the decline of War. So now, we are back in a war and potentially afterwards into a new form of cold war or hot warm, but hopefully not elaborate about that essay, you wrote.

Yeah. I mean some people think that all this talk about the decline of war was always just a fantasy but

When you look at the statistics since 1945 there, has not been a single clash between superpowers was previously in history. This was, you know, the basic stuff of history. Since 1945, not a single internationally-recognized country was wiped off the map by external Invasion. This was the common thing in history until then and then it stopped. This is an amazing achievement, which is the basis for everything.

I think we have for our medical services for education system. And this is all now in Jeopardy because this era of Peace, it wasn't the result of some miracle. It wasn't the result of a change in the laws of nature. It was humans, making better decisions, and building better institutions, which means also that it's there is no guarantee for the future. If humans, Some Humans start making bad decisions.

And start destroying the institutions that kept the peace. Then we'll be we'll be back in the ear of war with budgets military budgets going to twenty Thirty forty percent. It can happen. It's in our hands and I'll just say one more thing when not just me, but other Scholars, like, Steven Pinker and others talked about the era of Peace. Some people understood as kind of encouraging complacency that are we don't need to worry about.

No, I mean the message was really the opposite. It was a message of responsibility. If you think that there is no error of Peace in history. It's always warm. It's always the jungle, there is a constant level of violence in, in in nature. Then this basically means that there is no point struggling for peace, and there is no responsibility on leaders like Putin because you can't blame put in for the war.

It's just a law of nature that there are Wars when you realize. No humans are able to decrease the level of violence. Then it should make us much more responsible. And it should also make us understand that the war in Ukraine. Now, it's not a natural disaster. It's a man-made disaster and a single man. It's not the Russian people who want this war. There is really just a single person.

Who by his decisions created this quantity?

So one of the things that us us comeback in the last weeks and months is the nuclear threat is more back into the center of political and strategic considerations. Putting us talked about it several times. The other day. You're the Russia's nuclear force is on a higher alert status present the landscape self at the Munich security conference, essentially said that Ukraine and made a mistake abandoning the nuclear weapons. It had inherited from the Soviet Union and that's a statement to that. I suspect.

Two countries are pondering. Once you're thinking about the return of the nuclear threat.

It's extremely frightening. You know, it's like it's almost Freudian, It's the Return of the repressed. We thought that all nuclear weapons. Yes, there was something about that in the 1960s with the Cuban Missile Crisis, and dr. Strangelove, but no, it's here and, you know, it took just a few days of difficulties on the battlefield 4. Suddenly. I mean, I'm watching,

Television in like the news and you have this expert explaining to people what different nuclear weapons will do to this city. Oh to this country. It's it rushed back in so, you know nuclear weapons are in a way. They also until now preserve the Peace of the world. I belong to the school of thought that if it was not for nuclear weapons, we would have had the Third World War.

Between the Soviet Union and the United States and NATO sometime in the 1940s of in the 1950s or 60s. That nuclear weapons actually until today, served a good function. It's because of nuclear weapons. That if we did not have any more direct clashes between superpowers because it was obvious that this would be Collective suicide. But the danger is still there is always there. If there is a miscalculation

Then the the results could, of course, be existential catastrophic.

And at the same time, you know, in the 70s after Cuba in Berlin. And so, in the sixties when you're 70, we started building a sort of international institutional architecture that help reduce the risk of military, confrontation of nuclear weapons. They used, you know, anything from arm controls agreements to measures designed to build trust or to communicate the directory and so on.

And then in the last decade or so that has been progressively kind of scrap. So we are even in a more dangerous situation than we. Where let's say at the end of the last century

for completely. I mean, we are now reaping the the bed bed fruits of neglect of that could be gone for several years, not just about nuclear weapons, but in general about International institutions and and Global cooperation, we've built in the late 20th century.

House for Humanity based on cooperation, based on collaboration, based on the understanding that our future depends on being able to cooperate. Otherwise, we will become extinct as a specie, and we all live in this house. But in the last few years, we stopped we neglected it. We stopped repairing it.

We allow it to deteriorate more and more and you know, eventually it will collect is collapsing now. So I hope that people will realize before it's too late that we need. Not just to stop this. Terrible War. We need to rebuild the institutions. We need to repair the global house in which we all live together. If it falls down, we all do.

So they have a among the audience listening roller from. I don't know where she's from. She grew up in Lebanon and she said, I leave the war as left on the ground. I breath it. Fear what the reasons were explained to me that the only remaining learning came. The war is observed. We talk about strategy, power budgets opportunities Technologies. What about human suffering and psychological trauma, especially as assume what she's asking it. What about what's going to remain? In terms of dealing?

Suffering and the psychological trauma going forward.

Yeah. I mean these are these are the seeds that seeds of hatred and fear and misery that are being planted right now in the minds and the bodies of tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people really because it's not just the people in Ukraine. It's also in the countries around all over the world and these seeds will give a terrible Harvest terrible fruits in

Years in decades to come. This is why it's so crucial to stop the war immediately every day. This continues plants more and more of these seeds and you know, like this wall now it's seeds were to a large extent, planted decades and even centuries ago that part of the Russian fears that are motivating Putin and motivating. People around him is

Memories of past invasions of Russia, especially, of course in the second world war. And of course it is a terrible mistake, what we are doing with it. They are recreating again, the same things that they should learn to avoid. But yes, these are still the the terrible fruits of the seeds being planted in the 1940s.

It's what is what? In the same article you will call the fact that nations are automatically built on stories. So this seeds are the stories. We are starting to create. Now. The war in Ukraine is starting to create the stories that are going to have an impact in. Yeah, if that's what you're saying.

Some of the seeds of this war were planted in the siege of Leningrad.

And now it gives fruit in the siege of Kiev, which may give fruit in 40 or 50 is in in motorable. We need to cut this. We need to stop this, you know, as a historian. I feel sometimes, ashamed or responsible. I don't know. What about what history that the knowledge of history is doing to people. I in recent years weeks. I've been here and watching all this world leaders talking with Putin and

Often he gave them lectures on history. I think that macron had the discussion with him for five hours. And after it said, most of the time he was lecturing me about history. And as a historian, I feel that I feel I feel ashamed that this is what my profession is in. In some way is doing, I know it from my own country. We stuff in Israel. We also we suffer from too much history. I think people should be liberated from the past, not

Not constantly repeating it again. And again, you know, everybody should should kind of freed themselves from the memories of the second world war. It's true of the Russians. It's also true of the Germans.

Lots of things that were unconceivable just 10 days ago, happened in the last few weeks. And one of the most striking to me in any cases, Germany's the actual transformation. I mean, the new Chancellor of shots the other day announce that Germany will send arms to Ukraine and we spend an extra $1 billion building.

It's Army that reverse is completely the principle that has guided of guided Germany's foreign policy and security parties, for four decades. So so that that shift is happening, exactly this moment and very, very

fast. Yeah, and I think it's a good thing that we need the Germans to let me know. They are now the leaders of Europe. Certainly after Britain left in brexit and we

Need them to in a way. Let go of the past and be in the present. If there is really one country in the world that as a Jew as an Israeli as a story and that I trust it not to repeat the horrors of Nazism. That's-that's-that's,

Germany, you want to touch quickly over on three things that have to do with the fact that this sound feels like the first truly interconnected war in many ways.

The first, of course, is the basics, which is on one side. You're a very ancient war. We have tanks and we have trenches, and we have bombed buildings, and on the other we have real-time visibility of everything through cell phones, and Twitter and Tick-Tock and so on. And you have written a lot about this tension between old ways and new tech, that was the impact here.

That's all. We don't know. Everything is happening. I mean, surprisingly with all these Tick-Tock and phones and everything so much is, is not known so that the focus of war is still there. And yes, there is much more information, but information isn't truth. Lots of information is disinformation and fake news and so forth. And yes, it's always like this. The new and the old they come together and it is a new kind of War. People are sitting at home in.

California or Australia and they actively participate in the war not just by writing tweets, but by attacking websites of Defending websites, you know, in Spain in the Civil War, if you wanted to help fight fascism, then you had to go to Spain and join the international Brigade. Now, the international Brigade is sitting at home in San Francisco and is still in some way part of the war.

So this is, this is definitely new

no indeed. Just just two days about Ukraine's. Deputy Prime Minister. I think feather of announced via telegram that he wanted to create a sort of volunteer cyber Army, invited software, developers and hackers. And other people who've it skills to somehow, help Ukraine, fight the sound on the Cyber front and according to Wired Magazine in less than two days. 175,000 people signed up. So here is here is a defending nation that can kind of recruit almost overnight. One of the 70.

Thousand volunteers to go to battle and his behalf. It's a very different kind of War.

Yeah, you know, every war brings it surprises. Sometimes, it's how everything is new. But sometimes it's also how everything is

So, a few people in the, in the, in the chat and in the Q&A, I've mentioned China, which of course, is an important actor here, although, for now is mostly an observer. But China has a stated policy of opposing, any act that violates territory Integrity. So, moving into Ukraine, of course, violence territory integrity at the same time and it also has a huge interest in a stable global global economy global system, but then is to square this with the recent closeness with Russia.

You're being an protein met in Beijing before the Olympics for example, and kind of, then this message of friendship that went out to the world. How do you read China's position in this conflict?

I don't know. I mean, I'm not an expert on China and I certainly can't just, you know, just reading the news, want to get you into the mindset into the real opinions and positions of the Chinese leadership. I hope

that they take a responsible position.

And act in because they are close to Russia because they also close to Ukraine. But because especially, because they are close to Russia. They have a lot of influence on Russia. I hope that they will be the responsible adults.

That will put down the Flames of this war. They have a lot to lose from a breakdown of the global order. And I think they have a lot to win from the return of Peace including in terms of the Gratitude of the International Community. Now whether they do it or not, this is with them. I can't predict but I hope so.

You have mentioned before the several years.

PN. And and Western leaders that have gone to Moscow in the weeks before the invasion Varun in the in the chat asks is the Ukraine war a failure of diplomacy.

How are you can understand it in 2 questions did diplomacy fail to stop the war? Absolutely everybody know that but is it a failure in the sense that a different diplomatic approach? Some kind of other proposition would have stopped the War? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like it.

It, I mean, looking at the events of the last few weeks. It doesn't seem that Putin was really interested in a diplomatic solution. It seemed that he was really interested in the war. And I think again, it goes back to this basic fantasy that if, if really was concerned about the security situation of Russia.

Then there was no need to immediately invade Ukraine. There was no immediate threat to Russia. There was no discussion of right now Ukraine, joining NATO. There was no Invasion. Army assembling in the Baltic states or in Poland. Nothing. It was the put in chose the moment to start this crisis. So this is why it doesn't seem that. It's really about the, the security concerns. It seems more about this.

Very deep fantasy of re-establishing, the Russian Empire and of denying the very existence of the Ukrainian Nation.

So you live in the Middle East, someone else in the chat asks, what makes the situation so unique compared to many other words that are going on right now in the world.

I would say aside from the nuclear threat from Russia. But what else

several things? First of all, we have here again, something we haven't seen since 1945, which is a dominant power trying to basically obliterate from the map and independent country, you know, when the u.s. Invaded Afghanistan or when the u.s. Invaded Iraq, you can say a lot of things about it and criticizes in many ways. There was no question.

Of the US and acts in Iraq. All turning Iraq into the 51st state of the United States. This is what is happening in Ukraine. Under this pretext, all of this disguise. This is what at stake. The real aim is to enact Ukraine. If this succeeds it again, it brings us back to the era of War. I was struck by what the canyon representative to the UN Security Council said, when

This erupted, the Kenyan representative spoke in the name of Kenya and other African countries and he told the Russians look, we also have the product of a post-imperial older the same way. The Soviet Empire collapsed into different independent nations. Also African nations came out of the collapse of European Empires and the basic principle of African politics ever since then was that

No matter what your objections to the boulders. You have inherited, keep the borders. The borders are sacred. Because if we start invading neighboring countries because hey, this is part of our country's, these people of part of our nation. There will not be an end to it.

And if this, now happens in Ukraine, it will be a blueprint for copycats all over the world. The other thing which is different is that we are talking about superpowers. This is not a war between Israel and Hezbollah.

This is potentially a war between Russia and NATO.

And even leaving aside nuclear weapons. This completely destabilise has the that piece of the entire world. And again, I go back again and again to the budgets.

That if Germany doubles its defense budget, this will spread to every country in the world and this is terrible news.

So you while I'm jumping from topic to topic because I want to use the last few minutes to ask a few questions from from the audience, a few people are asking about the link to the climate crisis. Particularly, when it relates to the energy flows, like, Europe is very dependent. Part of Europe is very dependent on Russian oil and gas, which is for as far as we know still flowing until today, but could this crisis in a sort of, paradoxical way, a bit, like, the pandemic, accelerate, climate action, accelerate Renewables, and, and so on.

This is the hope that Europe now, realizes the danger and starts a green Manhattan project that kind of accelerates. What is already has been happening. But accelerates it, the development of of better energy sources, better energy infrastructure, which would release it from its dependence on oil and gas and which will actually

undercut the dependence of the whole world on oil and gas and this would be the best way to undermine the Putin regime in the put in war machine. Because this is what Russia has War oil and gas. That's it. When was the last time you bought anything made in Russia? They have oil and gas and this is we know that the you know, the curse of oil.

That's all is a source of riches. But it's also, you know, very often as support for dictatorships because to enjoy the benefits of oil. You don't need to share it with your citizens. You don't need an open Society. You don't need it ucation. You just need to drill. So we see in many places that all and gas are actually the basis for dictatorships.

If all and gas, if the price drops, if they become irrelevant, it will not only undercut, the finance that the the power of the Russian military machine. It will also false Russia to force putting or the Russians to change the

regime. Okay. Let me bring up a character that everybody here in the chat. Seems to find quite heroic and that's the Ukrainian president. So Ukraine kind of fine.

Itself with up comedian, who turned almost accidental? President tutor. Now War President, but has shown an impassable impressive conduct in the last in the last few weeks, especially last few days, which can be summarized in that response to give to the US when they offer to kind of exfiltrating. So he could lead a government in Exile. He said I need ammunition. I don't need a ride. How do you look at president the Lansky?

He's concerned. He has indeed been admirable and he gives courage and inspiration, not just to the Ukrainian people, but I think to everybody around the world, I think to a large extent, the Swift and and United reaction of Europe with the sanctions and sending arms and so forth to a large extent. This is also true. The court of the Lansky that you know, when politicians are also human beings.

And he's direct appeal to them and you know, they met him many times in person and to see where he is now. And the threat that not not only him but his family is also in. And, you know, they talked with him and he says, and they know that this may be the last time they speak. He may be dead murdered or bombed, in an hour in a day. It really changes something.

So in this sense, I think it made a huge personal contribution.

To not just the reaction in Ukraine, but around the

world. So Sam who's listening as this question? Can you provide some historical context for the the force in the meaning of Economic and trade sanctions at the level where they have kind of correctly? Imposed. However, previous would be in Pires would be aggressors or aggressors being constrained by such isolations and such sanctions.

You know what? We need again to realize about putting

Russia. It's that it's not the Soviet Union. It's a much smaller and weaker country. It's not like in the 1960s that in addition to the Soviet Union, you had the entire Soviet block around it. So it's it's easier in this sense to isolate it. It's much more vulnerable again. Does it mean that the functions would work like a miracle and stop the tanks? Know it takes time.

But I think that the West is in a position to impact Russia with this kinds of sanctions and isolation much more than let's say with the Soviet Union and also the Russian people of different. The Russian people don't really want this war even the people in the immediate circle around Putin, you know, again, I don't know the personally from what it seems It's that these people they

Like life, they have their yachts and they have their private airplanes and they have their house in London and they have their Chateau in France and they like the good life and they want to keep enjoying it. So I think that the sanctions can be really effective.

Whether what's the timetable? That's ultimately in the hands of

So, Gabriella asks, I remember the war in former Yugoslavia and the atrocities there is then an equal. Is there any possibility that this war would escalate it to such a situation? I think an extension to that he is, is this were kind of stirring, dormant conflict, so I can the Balkans, for example, or in the former Central Asian Republic.

Unfortunately, it can get to that level and even worse. If you want an analogy, go to Syria, you look at what?

What's happened in Homes at what happened in Aleppo? And this was done by Putin and his airplanes and his minions in Syria. It's the same person behind it. And to think that, no. No, this happened in the Middle East. It can't happen in Europe. No, we could see Kiev in the same situation as homes as the same situation as Aleppo, which would be catastrophic. And again, would plant

Terrible seeds of hatred for years and decades so far. We've seen hundreds of people being killed Ukrainian citizens being killed. It could reach tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands.

So in this sense, it's extremely painful to contemplate. And this way we need again to again and again to urge.

At the leaders to stop this war and especially again. And again, tell Putin you will not be able to absorb Ukraine into Russia. They don't want it. They don't want you. If you continue. The only thing you will achieve is to create terrible hatred.

Between ukrainians and Russians for Generations. It doesn't have to be like that.

Well, let me finish with one question about your county. You are in Israel. Israel has close ties with both Russia and Ukraine. It's actually home of many Russian born and Men. Ukrainian-born Jews. How is the country reacting to this confident talking about the government. But also about to the population,

actually, I'm not the best person to ask. I've been so kind of following what's happening around the world. I didn't pay so much attention to what is happening right here. And even though I live him, I'm not an expert on Israeli Society or Israeli politics. Definitely the sentiment in the street in the social media is because Ukraine you see Ukrainian Flags, you see Ukrainian on social media, people putting Ukrainian flags on their, on their account. And another thing, you know, so many