On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness podcast.
And that's what happens when you try to fit these profound. Incredible substances into the typical medical monocles. The typical medical model is you're here for an hour. You pay for the hour and then you leave, whereas what psychedelics are introducing is it's a model of care, it's a model of supports, a model of love. So all of these substances when they're used, need to be done in a set and setting in a container that supports a nourishes. The individual as they're moving through this, this idea of the third wave is this is the time where we can perfect how we utilize these substances.
Has
helped performance nutrition. Longevity ancestral, living biohacking, and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.
Hey, what's up its Ben Greenfield, I can't wait for you to get a hold of and listen to today's episode with Paul Austin, Paul us and his kind of a Pioneer in the Psychedelic space and account to my home to do a big podcast on micro dosing and psychedelics and plant medicine. And that's what we're going to delve into today. So Paul's been around the scene for a while, start at 21 years old and in Michigan. He traveled all over the world, like, 60 plus different countries, or a
That's like half a dozen years kind of studying everything from plant medicine. Again the psychedelics the micro dosing. He has a very comprehensive website called third wave where he logs, really good information about all of this and we're going to dive into all of that on today's show. So I hope you enjoy this podcast, is brought to you by Kion and our most popular product, their Bar. None is our essential amino acids formula. It's like the Swiss army knife for everything.
I'm from sleep to gut stability, to building, muscle to satiating the appetite in a fasted state to dumping a bunch of neurotransmitter and protein and muscle precursors into your body. Everybody who takes this stuff. Tells me, I get texts from people all over, including like, big Health influencers. That like, what the heck, do? I feel like I'm on steroids. I'm sleeping less more energy. Building muscle satiated with far, fewer calories. That's that's what key on aminos does for you and a whole lot more. We have researched the best ratio, we put it in both a tab and a powdered form at
You get 20% off of this stuff or any of the fine fine products from key on go to get key, on.com slash Ben Greenfield, get ki o. N.com been greenfeld, I was just telling you about the aminos but you can bundle that with any of our products 20% discount to check out get key on.com slash Ben Greenfield also, this company that does red light therapy. They just came out with new red light devices. So this is the light company that I use, they're called Juve, but they're new.
New generation of devices. They're sleeker, they're like, 25% lighter in case you like to carry your red lights around the house. For some weird reason, I don't know why the wait would matter, I guess they do have like portable ones that are super light. They've got pulsing technology now where the lights do this extra boost to allow you to recover with near-infrared light, they have ambient mode so you can switch it to lower intensity light. And as usual, they're all just like super low. EMF, higher power. So you don't have to stand in front. Your frickin red light for like two hours, you
Full dose in about 10 minutes and I dig these for like collagen elastin skin, Health, testosterone, thyroid circadian, rhythmicity. You name it, I'm kind of addicted to my red light panels and they're going to give you a discount on your order. If you go to juvie, calm / been Jo o v.com been and the code that uses been on your order. So jube.com been use code been and let's go talk to Paul Austin.
Dude, Paul, how'd you like that? Carrot cake smoothie? Yeah, delicious. Yeah, that that that's actually Shameless plug. That's actually a recipe in my cookbook that losses. I have to give it all that Launches on Monday. Actually, the time that we're recording this so that carrot cake smoothie, I use. So I kind of cheated like I used to like actually use actual carrots, but I had some of that farmers juice carrot juice in the fridge. So I use they're like fresh carrot juice.
And then I use nutmeg and cinnamon and sea salt, and vanilla Stevia. Like, all the things you'd normally use to kind of like spice up a carrot cake, a little bit and all that goes in the blender. The carrot juice goes in the blender shit ton of ice, because as you taste, I like it like super, super thick, you know? Like like like like the Smoothie is that? Yeah, with the spatula time, sometimes you get to the bottom. So melty liquidy, and then they need to get. And then, what else was in a little bit of collagen
Little bit of creatine, which I actually I like creatine to because there's some recent research that came out. You know, we always know creatine is good for strength, power muscle building and yada yada, yada and and mental function. But then this recent study came out that also showed it really helps you when you are in a sleep-deprived state or when you just want to operate as though you've had a full eight hours of sleep and and sometimes you like this morning, I got up super early. And and so the two things that help you when you're sleep deprived state,
Our creatine and NAD. I took some NAD this morning, put some creatine, this smoothie, and then put a little bit of almond butter in there about 2, 2, heaping teaspoons of almond butter. So it was enough for two people kind of careful with the omega-6 fatty acids, but you got to get a little bit of almond butter, smoothness in there. And then trying to think what else was in there. A little bit powder, just just, just to give a little bit, extra kick basal
diet 8, I tasted that people make a
super super smart sounding.
Or Today Show and then blend it blend. Blend it blend it for like two or three minutes because I like to just get it. So my biceps get to work out because he's a little stir stick. Like, you saw me with that blender. I go, I go through buddy, like every four months, just smoke them out and then and then the toppings are the key get the right topic. So for the carrot cake smoothie, what do you do? Is you put it in the bowls, right? Then you go unsweetened, coconut flakes that I keep in the freezer because I like them kind of cold and crunchy. We did a few little chunks like a
Chocolate. That was the the lilies Stevia, dark chocolate. I also keep that cold. Some people freak out because they say cacao loses its flavor when you keep it cold, call like wine. But actually, like, not only do I like my red wine, a little chilled. I like my chocolate chip and then, and then my friend and your new friend. Dr. Patrick love from the wellness Tree in Spokane was over our house. Last night for little party that we through, and he made us like a keto chocolate pie, but the bottom of the keto chocolate pie was all of his life.
Gluten-free graham cracker crust. So we broke a little chunks of that graham, cracker crust off. And you know, if we hadn't had that I would use like, like a paleo granola, or something like that because because basically, you're taking what the crust would normally be on the carrot cake or the not really the crust but like, the filler of the carrot cake and you're sprinkling that on top of the smoothie. And then, and then we launched a Mangia Mangia. Mangia, you were good. You did some
email, I wrote a
book and now we're here at the podcast. Yeah. Yeah. And so by the way, all
As an advanced filters you listening in because Paul, and I might rocket ship to the Moon in terms of our intellectualization of today's show because Paul's rocking the Apollo. Right? So, the Apollo is on you, what mode did we
put that in Social? And open just over
sent social and open 50%? I always Jack it up to a hundred percent. Yeah, so social social and open date. David robinho. I interviewed on this show about the Apollo. He said that he thinks that most closely mimics MDMA. So stoked,
And of, like, social and open. As the name implies, I would say maybe a little bit of like a cocktail, ask effect like it like an alcohol affect but, you know, it makes you more open and then what I am sitting on underneath my butt right now, because I'll bring it up to the mic and you guys will hear it because I can't wear on my head will hear like a little like staticky sound and so I'm using the happy which is the one that uses more of a magnetic signal. The Apollo is more of a sound signal, happy is a magnetic signal and I have that one set on
Focus, which is a nicotine. So, the simulating the effects of nicotine, like, the wakefulness effects of
nicotine, and we also have nicotine
gum, and we also were chewing, nicotine gum, and resistors going to be. And we punished a really good workout today on rounds. We did the cold plunge. Yeah, we did 411 persons on the are dying for 4 minutes, all nasal breathing at maximum sustainable Pace. While the other person for those four minutes, does 15 burpees 10, kettlebell swings and five kettlebell goblet squats.
It's for as many rounds as they can do. All the other person jamming for 4 minutes on the bike. Then you switch. And so we did 32 minutes of that has like four rounds. Each of that, hit the cold pool have the carrot cake smoothie. Now we're here now we're ready, you're
ready. So for those, You've Won
RuPaul, is I'm going to put all the show notes at Ben Greenfield, fitness.com Paul, Austin in a nutshell, there's probably one website that I think is probably the best website out there in terms of just a massive collection.
Sharon of audio podcasts articles, every light and all the way down to. We'll talk about this later like books and coaching certifications all related to psychedelics plant medicine micro dosing. But almost like, you know, you've liked the full guide to micro dosing with LSD. The full guide to journeying with psilocybin did just like any molecule that you'd ever want as opposed to a to, you know, any of these forums that a lot of people go to like
I read it or are oh, it is. Is it gonna be our blue light where people are just like you know so-called Psychonauts are sharing what they experienced? What kind of stacks they found to be useful. Like your website is more more written from like a professional content standpoint where it's at? I mean I would say the best way I can describe it is, it's a little bit more trustworthy. In terms of, not just, you know, it'd be like going to the library and getting a book on periodization from
Will gain versus going to a bodybuilding Forum, right? Your website is kind of like the book that's actually got the, the vetted information in there. So I appreciate that. I think that was how I originally found. You was just finding some good articles on third wave, and then I started following your feed. I forget how you and I actually wound up. Connecting in
person. Podcast, was interviewed you for the pain, you interview 2017 or something? Yeah, that's called third waves. Yeah, the third wave
podcast and I want to
Hear more about your stories rather than laying out some extensive by. I actually want want to want to hear your bio in your words, but I would be remiss not to ask you before we jump in, What does third wave stand for like white third wave?
Yeah, so first wave was the indigenous use for thousands of years, right? Like Amazon Ayahuasca in the Amazon, The elusive Nyan Mysteries and in ancient Greece Soma in Ancient India, right? So there's this long historical context of humans and plant medicines so that was really the first wave of
Del X and then the second wave of psychedelics was the the 50s and 60s, you know, when LSD was invented in 1938 and then psilocybin came on the scene soon after that, when Gordon Wasson published on the front page of Life magazine. And then, of course, we had Leary and Richard Alpert and can policy. And you know that whole second wave that really burst onto the scene in the 50s and 60s and we as a culture like LSD psychedelics, what is this? Isn't there was the backlash and you know the War on Drugs that came after that and the next Administration. And so
the third wave is really the integration of those two. Okay. How do we combine the wisdom? Knowledge of thousands of years of use throughout Humanity with cutting-edge science about specific use cases in 2021 for how this can be
applied and what is the integration of those two to ensure that these become
responsibly integrated? So we don't have a similar backlash as the second layer. Well why was there a backlash?
Like and I ask that because I you know I guess I asked it because I've heard that
Like the, the like the whole let's say, like 60s flower child. What was the big not the conference because like, the Burning Man type of thing that they had back in the 60s,
asking tested the ground, the big Festival, what was the name of the festive? Woodstock? Yeah. Woodstock like that, that whole crowd
was potentially posing a problematic issue for the u.s. government because it was a bunch of people who were
Almost like sticking it to the Man or defying authoritarianism or, or could potentially not be sheeple because they were woke due to the use of plant medicine. Is there something to that? Or were there other reasons of the second wave kind of got shut down or that plant medicine in general, is vilified during the time.
Well, there's a few intersecting threads that, right? The first thing is, it was the counterculture. It was the other, right? So they prayed they sort of position themselves as we are opposite to the mainstream. And so when you're ever you position yourself as the other as opposite and there is naturally going to be
Be like a fight in that. So I think that's sort of the, the, the foundation of is we are the counterculture and then the counterculture was associated with the Vietnam War, right? So all the protests that are going out against the Vietnam War, the left, you know, being like, we don't, we don't, we shouldn't be in Vietnam, we shouldn't be doing this, right? That was also associated with it too. And then, of course, all the stuff that was happening in the 60s around race riots and, you know, all that, all that sort of stuff, just made it like, you know, the John ehrlichman.
It was in the next Administration basically said in the mid-90s. Hey, we couldn't make being a hippie illegal, we couldn't make being black legal, but we can make the drugs that people were using illegal. So we can make LSD illegal. And we can write heroin illegal, which is what the black people were using and so this sort of kicked off The War on Drugs. So I think that that was like core to it and then I mean, if I get a little bit more meta, you know for hundreds of years, the core drugs that were used in western civilization in our industrial culture were nicotine.
Backhoe and alcohol. So anything that wasn't within that Paradigm that could nicotine tobacco and alcohol, cannabis psychedelics, whatever else it is, it posed a threat to the sort of dominant culture in the dominant kind of mainstream way of being. And so since that was it was the other, you know, the Nixon Administration was like we can't we can't have this anymore, we can't have people waking up and realizing that they they are God, or they are part of this Universal Consciousness. We want to kind of keep it right, could it? Because that's kind of, that's kind.
The collective experience that a lot of people have not necessarily when they, when they microdose, although many micro dosing protocols, like I've used, for example, like like, watch Uma, or San Pedro, or something like that, one microdose, it actually does make you more social and open and communicative is great for a date night or a party or a time when you just want to be more open with other people. Almost like, well, in a way of loving others, more, right? And same thing with a micro dose of psilocybin. For example, I've found myself
Off to be more open, more honest, more transparent during discussions, but when you, when you do these deeper Dives these deeper Journeys, you, you wind up having this, you know, it's almost in the same way that we were talking about in the sauna last night. Help people who will use DMT often tend to see, you know, whatever purple, farrier, praying mantis and it. And it's not as though it's something that is unique to that individual like a whole bunch of other people experience. The same thing seems like almost
Everybody will do like Ayahuasca or psilocybin or something like that. Come back out of it, thinking more of humans as like this Collective race, that's here to care for the planet and care for each other and love each other. And it's totally antithetical to like an authoritarian regime or a country that might be trying to dominate other countries. It's more, you know, almost similar again to that book were talking about Charles eisenstein last night, the sacred economy and how money needs to be.
Invented to be based on, you know, gifts and mediums of exchanges based around gratitude and caring for the planet etcetera. But it is, if you think about it, back to the second wave, like a very hippie esque type of psyche that you tend to create through these types of experiences that you could see, you know, a government that wanted to dominate or someone who wanted people to just line up in a row and do what they were told, might actually be a little bit fearful of, in terms of that becoming like a popularly used.
Drug. And this, I mean, we track this back. There's just this book published the immortality Key by Brian. Yeah, Brian Orosco. Yeah. And so he talked about how, you know, when the ancient Roman Empire needed to basically create a political system that could be widespread. They also cut out, plant medicine, and made Christianity. The official religion of the Roman
Empire in like, 8307
or something. So, for hundreds of years before that the Greeks and the Romans were doing these private ceremonies with plant medicine, especially as part of
Early Christianity is this called, right? And then once it was like, okay, we really want this to be sort of mainstream. We can't have everyone thinking that they're, they have this Gnostic connection to God. We need to keep it within the Priestly class. If you will, they cut down in it. So it's also it also has
something to do with a meaning that plant medicines would be limited to to the priests to like the inner circle of a religion and not to the masses, right? A type of thing. Precise like things like the Eucharist for example, The Taking of bread and wine as part of communion I believe that Brian's argument was that
That want the wine wasn't just wine. It was in th than infused with the type of things that would allow, force, a deeper connection to God, or opening of the third eye, or the ability to be able to maybe not in a fully Gnostic sense in terms of total disconnection from from the physical body, but definitely being able to use those type of substances to to get into an altered state of consciousness that would allow for for more meaningful, you know, prayer or meditation or
Our connection to God. Like that, that was all eliminated basically to just be something that the, the the authorities had access to
or even and then at some point and that no one had
noticed so that it was marked as is like a sin or forgotten that nobody had access to. Exactly.
Yeah. And the ancient Greeks what they said with these elusive, Nia Mysteries. Is that life would not be worth living without Kiki on? Which was the ancient beverage that they drank? Then the thing that was infused with ergot which is the same thing that LSD is made from. So they knew how Central
all this was to feeling like life was worth living to feel like there was purpose and meaning to feel like there was a connection to something greater. And so for 1,700 years, you know, since 300 ad, we've been kind of like it's always been in the underground and has it been fully accessible and that's why what's happening now in 2021, with the medicalization of psychedelics with Oregon legalizing, silithus psilocybin therapy with d creme happening. This is like a massive experiment about what would it look like to have psychedelics once again?
In kind of the mainstream available and accessible to a lot of people. And this is why in my own sort of thread. When I started third wave in 2015, almost six years ago now, I focus predominantly on Mike reducing as that public entry point because frankly, these high-dose experiences are very disorienting and so not everyone can actually hold that space to have that connection and yet the substances are really profoundly useful. Well, isn't that isn't that
true?
Additionally, the way that a heftier use of a substance like this was viewed is that certain people who
were called or
qualified or in or able to I guess, almost like handle that type of dose responsibly where the people that would use it. And then come back to the rest of humankind or their Community with what it is. They did they'd experienced what they learn shared that with everyone else, but that it wasn't necessarily something.
Everyone used as much as what select individuals who had the responsibility and the proper care and training to be able to use would use and then come back and share with that experience with others. Almost like a like an oracle
rights in the loose Indian Mysteries, right? The ancient Greek Mysteries, they would do it once in their lifetime, right? Plato and Aristotle and all these major thinkers of Greek civilization would go, they would experience this and they would have that experience, but they could actually never talked about it. Mmm, if you talked about the actual experience,
Audience. When you came back from it you would be excommunicated but great. Could you could you talk about what you learned? You don't think you could talk about what you learned, what you kind of like so. So there's a flaw sir. Peter said Hughes who talked about how Plato's core philosophy about now non-duality was informed by psychedelic use, right? So he that was that was like the Bedrock of all of Western philosophy, right? We say everything is a footnote to Plato and he was informed through that by this psychedelic experience. So he could talk about right people.
Back and go. These are the insights that I have but they could never talk about. This is what actually happened at the loose, any investor,
okay. So in terms of like this is what I use, this is what the dosage was it so that
was what the ceremony was like, just be held
secret. It was all
secret. Yeah. It was all a mystery and that was a huge part of it. And that's I think when we come back in today's day and age, this is the value that psychedelics bring to people as they help them get back in touch with the mystery right or Source or God or whatever.
Ever it is and so much of us. We kind of have this deep Soul longing for Faith. And for, what is the unknown, because of, you know, the scientific method and because of you noatak and because of, you know, we feel like we have all the answers and when we think we have all the answers, that's what often creates suffering, because we don't have that ability to expand and really trust in this greater power that's Watching Over Us
and right, right. And that, and that, that is basically scientific logical rationalism would be, or scientism is this.
That everything must be stripped down to its explainable parts and at the end of the day we find the the ultimate source of where everything came from the, you know, the Quark or what smaller than the Quark or what smaller than that. And it anybody who is for example, or at least in my own experience. And people, I've talked to have, for example, journeyed with something like like DMT, you kind of experience that like you can see like individual particles and sound noise and you're digging and you're digging in, you're digging. And for me personally,
Only, I got to the point where I could almost like strip a part of a tree down its individual constituents and see every last component of it. And then two very, very, very end when I was like, oh wow, this is, this is like, I'm about to see the source where everything came from. Then it was just like, boom, blinding light nothing and you realize it coming out of that experience, you know, for me, personally, I already based on my faith, my Christian upbringing, have a strong belief in God, have no doubt that God exists and have no doubt that God,
Is
the source of the universe. And so for me it was more verification or almost like a more beautiful understanding of that. But for many people, you know, that and even my own, you know, facilitator who have worked with her plant medicine, you know, says that when he works people, he's like, I've had many many atheists come to my facility and non Leaf. He's like bit just because you realize oh like there is at the end of the day this unexplainable Source. This unexplainable beginning that everything was founded from.
And that's where this clashes with science because it can't be explained. And when somebody goes down that road and has that realization, you know, it stands in stark contrast to a lot of what you were just alluding to that idea that everything must be explainable. When in fact it's not and so Jamie wheal is another author in addition to Paul he brought up, he just wrote a book called recapture the Rapture and talks about how human beings basically have these these elements.
Sacred elements woven into into culture, you know, for eons of time. And it really is the things that are nowadays, vilified in a sense, right? It's sex, drugs and rock and roll, right? Which is in a way, the sacred sexuality of two human beings being intertwined in a way, that's nearly unexplainable. In terms of the, the connectivity that occurs there on a deep spiritual level, right. Which has now been just like bastardized with porn and polyamory and
And cheapening of sex and prostitution, all the things that destroy that drugs which are in fact, these amazing molecules that you and I are talking about right now that can be used for great good and for personal insights and even productivity and creativity. Also vilified because of misuse or because of misinterpretation, and then rock and roll, right? What music when combined with, with sex and drugs, used, responsibly me like, sex, drugs and rock, and roll, and people joining together and engaging around that for good. Not
For evil. Not not in a vise sense of those terms. I mean it's a magical combination and it's just something that I think scientific rationalism has driven us away from and you know I don't know what you think about this Paul but Jamie talks about this a little bit in his book in that human beings crave that type of spiritual connection so much that like agrarian economies were were built around the concept of like the agriculture being there for the firm.
Imitation capability of grains so that people could enter into Altered States Of Consciousness. And basically engage in things like the connection with God, like, seeking that deep abyss, and our whole, that that Eternal Soul or that, that Eternal, whole that wants to be filled by God and the use of these substances to allow one to get closer to that state. Like if you if you step back and look at it humans actually are really really hard wired once we fulfilled Maslow's hierarchy of needs to enter into that
Using things like sex, drugs and rock and
roll, and then it can get
too out of control, right? That's what happened in the
sixties, right? We had the acid test of the Grateful Dead and Ken Kesey and the merry pranksters who were just do seen everyone on acid. I'll tell ya the west and then we had Woodstock and so when you bring all those things together it's almost like we that's why the Greeks had this secret container for it because that way, it kept contained right in this thing. And it and it did sort of interrupt the normal everyday glow. But once that comes up and interrupt,
It's the normal everyday flow, that's where we go. Okay, we need to we need to lock down on this because it's just, it's bringing up too much. It's exposing too much. There's too much chaos, right? So, even if we talk about like, Jordan Pederson talks about this, right that balance between Chaos and Order and in the 60s, it just got way too chaotic and so that we had to bring the order back down. And so that's why now in today's day and age maps in particular has focused so much on the medicalization of psychedelic, the
multidisciplinary was
Association for second. Yes.
They're bringing MDMA through phase 3 trials for PTSD, they've raised tens of millions of dollars as a non-profit to make that happen and the reason that's so critical is because through that clinical trial kind of methodology that is the order through which we're holding the natural chaos that comes from these
substances, right? It's like the MK Ultra experiments, you know, done on the CIA operatives where they, you know, I think in a nutshell they would put them on a
LSD and
where they basically trying
to, to get information that normally, you wouldn't be able to get out of a human being, by shifting them into an altered state of consciousness, using high doses of
LSD. Well, they were trying to see like, mind control. I can, I can we use Elysee for mind control, right? And so, this is the Dark Side of psychedelic substances is, they are nonspecific amplifiers and they dramatically increase suggestibility. So, if you use psychedelics within sort of a shadowy dark container, then you can easily.
Like people, which is where we see the shadow elements of psychedelics and that's why the container that we do these in need to be so clean and pure and sacred, right? Because when you're in that state, your suggestible to whatever is coming in, you want to make sure that you are connecting to something. That is divine and not some sort of Guru that's trying to manipulate manipulate you into doing X. Y &
Z. Right? Well, a, that's one reason. Why something, like MDMA couples therapy can be so effective because you're essentially with your partner on truth serum.
Right. Looking deep into each other's eyes and sharing all your hopes and dreams and wishes and desires and fears and subtle annoyances that you might have with them. But in this very open space and then the information just flowing in full truth, you know. And I think that can be effective for many couples to be in that space together, be in that altered state of consciousness together and then and then, you know, when I was thinking about the MK Ultra experiments and how this ties into this idea of the Oracle, right? So if you watch as I like the movie 300 right work,
Leonidas is climbing up the Rock and he gets to those those oracle's at the top and then they have, you know, they're on some kind of a substance and they are getting information about whether or not he should go to battle, you know, from an oracle that they've consulted, you know? If if you look at some of these medicines because I've certainly been been given the privilege of partaking in some different combinations of plant. Medicines that almost turn your brain into 20x.
Computer so not hallucinogens but but what would be called, chlorogenic substances, right? Where you you are experiencing hyper, creativity, hyper productivity, and literally seeing things that years down the line that you should or could be doing from a business standpoint or a personal standpoint or relationship standpoint and mapping out in a very productive way like years forward of your life. Like it. You know, that that's actually been a big game changer for me in terms of my own personal and business success is the use of those type of component. Cuz youll
We'll see things like, oh, on by this day, at this time. These are the six chapters of the book that you need to have mapped out and this is everything that needs to be included in them,
like just crazy stuff.
But you could also see that being manipulated right? What if the government or let's say, you know, the CIA were to hook, like, 20 people up turn their brains into supercomputers and literally trapped them in a room, Matrix style and try to harness a bunch of information that they could use, you know, for planning world domination or something like that. Like, there's all sorts of ways that this could go wrong,
right?
And so that's why I like the these are tools, right? Tools can be bad or tools, can be good. And so the orientation of everything that we're using them for is to help people connect to Divinity, connect to themselves and then integrate that experience. So they can show up as better Partners. So they control put more vision and inspiration for their teams. So they can you know just I mean a lot of it's healing. Healing depression, healing addiction healing alcoholism. There's so many you know it's a broad broad use case and we want to ensure that it goes well this time, right? So that's
The idea of this third wave of psychedelics, right? We've, we had the first way for thousands of years, we tried it with the second wave and the number of three, right? And the number of 3 is perfection. This is where the Trinity comes from, right? This idea of the third wave is this is the time where we can sort of perfect how we utilize these substances, or what I call the skill of psychedelics to ensure that we use these responsibly to ensure that they're used for purposes, that help with morality to help us to develop values and principles that help us to come together and create community.
Charles eisenstein talks about and sacred economics, right? Using these substances to actually reconsider our core values around the meaning of being interconnected, right? Stepping out of the story of separation and reinvesting or time and energy into rebuilding the communes, right to rebuilding Community, because that's so much of what our Despair and suffering. And disconnection is about in today's day and age. It's feeling disconnected. It's really like, we just, we're just in this sort of Matrix e world and we can't step out of it and
It looks help us to get above that parapet. So to say and see, oh there's there's this beautiful future that we can create in the midst of a lot of existential despair at this
point. Hey, I want to interrupt Today's Show, just in case you're sore. There is this concept that you don't necessarily have to spend noodles and Oodles of money on a massage therapist. I love my massage therapist, Donna. She's amazing. But I have to keep myself put together in between my massages from her and there's all sorts of these
Massage guns that you may have seen out there but there's one that really stands out these days. It's called daraa body. I found this guy way back in the day, I think he was basically like a screwdriver with an attachment on when he was first working on it. But dr. Jason Westland is the guy's name, who developed this thing. He had a traumatic motorcycle accident. He developed the Thera gun. It's a physician created. Percussive therapy device. So it uses this cool combination of depth and speed and power. It's way different than a lot of the massage guns out there. If you've tried some of them.
This one, you you feel big time and it's it's a pretty sexy little tool. It takes all the guesswork away with this app that it comes with that shows you where to customize your intensity and your placement. If you want to use their electrical muscle stimulation feature, which is called a power dot, you get that separate from the Thera gun, but it works really well. Also, they have this thing called a recovery are, which is compression therapy for your legs to flush out leg soreness. So, I mean, if you go to their website, you don't just have to get
Eragon you can get like the full meal deal like home therapy, sweet. And just set up. Your little Den in the basement. Like I do and make love to this stuff, you know, a couple times a week. Oh my gosh. It's so useful to keep your body put together about the hassle, having to schedule, a therapist to come work on you or get in the car and drive somewhere. So anyways, tons of professional athletes, you know, Cristiano Ronaldo. International Soccer Star bunch of people. The NBA, the NFL Maria, Sharapova Tennis champion world-class Surfers. They're all using these, their organs.
Us now is our the LA Dodgers. The LA Clippers Red Bull Racing, Real Madrid. Soccer, and the list goes on and on. So the stuff is obviously working. You get a 30 day money-back guarantee on your therapy body purchase you go to therapy. Gun.com been that'll work for anything. I just told you about their a gun.com been 30 day, money-back guarantee and this stuff just works. So check it out there a gun.com been this podcast.
Also brought to you by something else is actually really good for body repair organifi gold organifi gold. So organifi does all these crazy cool vegetables and superfood powders. But their gold literally tastes like a golden milk latte. Especially if you blend it up with a latte frother, and some coconut milk, or some nice almond milk or goat, milk, and me getting put in just hot water if you want of those calorie counting people who doesn't want to drink. A can of coconut milk before bed. But anyways, got turmeric. Ginger Rishi turkey tail. Lemon balm, coconut cinnamon.
Black pepper, Acacia fiber and it's like the perfect done for you. Recovery drink that actually tastes like those overpriced golden milk latte as you get from the coffee shop but with none of the crap in them, you get 20% off of organifi gold to get organifi.com / been. That's organifi with an eye.com, been get you 20% off of this. You get the red. You get the green but definitely is your vegetable powder concierge. I do recommend that you look into the gold. Probably one of my favorites. So anyways, check
Out. And let's head back to the show.
You are correct. Also that it is difficult to be selfish or to at least develop selfish Tendencies as readily when you are in a state in which you are seeing human beings, as part of a collective race there, for each other is good, you know, it's like, you know, in in the Bible it says the two greatest Commandments are to love God and love others and certainly for the second component of that and I guess, arguably the first component as well. It seems that many of these compounds help to help to shift you.
To that state, more readily. And, and honestly, I think that's one of the reasons that God put them on this planet. In the first place is for that type of use, you know, and just like anything I mean even the Book of Proverbs in the Bible you know it lodz the values in the virtues of Honey, right? And how great honey Isn't how sweet it is, and how wonderful it is. And then later on, it tells you yeah, honey makes you vomit too much. Honey is going to make you sick, or fat or lazy, you know? And so there's this
The idea of temperance, e of Mastery of desires, of Mastery of passions yet. It's almost and this is the way I describe myself as as a hedonistic Christian, right? Meaning that I enjoy well, a temperate hedonistic Christian. I enjoy all God has to offer on this planet and all that he has created in in a hedonistic sense. You know, in that like last night, right? Like we're partying were in the sauna, we had a little cannabis, we hit the cold pool, we had
You do chocolate pie and slow, smoked pork, ribs, and wine. And we played music and we did some meditation and, you know, then you know, it's a bags. And
then well yeah, we 11/0 and doing we we played some corn hole,
you know, and and those are very like hedonistic experience and it was not an amoral hedonistic case. But we were, we weren't having an orgy and sacrificing babies to some, you know, unknown God. Like we were just enjoying God's creation and
Then, you know, this morning, we were out there sweating out in the driveway and shivering in the cold pool. You know, and I was doing my meditation, prayer, and journaling, and all those things that you might consider to be Temperance, e and master desires. You know, I was fasting for at least 12 hours after that, Feast last night. And, and I think that both can be had to a certain extent, you know, using the same type of, I guess, almost like the hedonistic calendaring approach that Jamie will talks about, In A Book, Like, recapture the Rapture. But, you know, I
Personally, get off. Flak for that, dude. That like like for me being a Christian who also Embraces with responsibility, the fact that God created all for good and that you can responsibly engage with just about any of these things. And and I would at the same time say that like heftier doses of some of these substances, it's not for some people. Like I do agree with the idea that some are called and some are not some are chosen and some are not not to sound hottie or narcissistic, but some people from either a
Standpoint, or serotonin, standpoint, or where they're at in life, in terms of responsibility and addictive potential. I think this stuff can be dangerous for a lot of people and then I think there are others who can engage with these substances and then come back and share some really good shit with the rest of the world that they've discovered through their use of such compounds.
Yeah. And some people are in the archetype where they, they're really in that sort of orderly phase that orderly sense and so to throw something, and then like a huge dose of a psychedelic, we'll just totally interrupt that and
Not, that's not necessarily for them. And yet those people can benefit from for example, microdose and you and I have both done like reducing extensively. So even doing something like microdose and if you're not going into the super high doses can still be beneficial right for that. And so, I think this is all about, you know, this gets back to how we as individuals develop an intuition for what is best for us. Because so much of our conditioning is around, you know, whether it's diet exercise, sleep, relationships. Were supposed to be doing X, Y & Z. And what psychedelics help us to recognize is
How much can we honor? The inner intuition about what is best for us and slowly start to open that more and more and more so that we can really live in a way that's free. In a way that we feel aligned with this sort of inner truth that we have. All of these things is what the
psychedelics Hopeless? Yeah. We had a very esoteric discussion thus far, but I wanted to hell I do. I'm gonna do some brass tacks to are you did you, did you microdose with
anything before our podcast? I did not know. I just do not smoothie because we're we talked about doing it. Maybe later, we're gonna go play Frisbee golf and
do a little bit of
I think this afternoon, for example, will take a little bit of psilocybin, maybe a little bit of lion's mane, something to open up blood flow, like, beetroot or something along those lines. And then our plan is to go play Frisbee golf or to hike, or to paddleboard in nature and, you know, the reason that we might use something like that, prior is increased sensory perception, colors become more vibrant, you know, sounds become more audible smells become better or sometimes your visual Acuity is better when you throwing the Frisbee or the
The the joy and the dopaminergic response to seeing that paddle into the water and Feel the Rush of water past the board as you as it sweeps through. You know, it's it's not to over quote this, this, this this fellow, but, you know, as, as I think Jamie it is who says, any anything you can do. I can do better. Yeah, and I am no way am saying that to enjoy life. You must have substances in you, but that's an example of how you and I would response.
Use microdose to enjoy our afternoon. Or for example, this Monday, I told you my cook book, launches this Monday. So I'll probably have like a 14 hour work day on Monday, just, you know, jamming away replying to emails, you know, fostering the T. Make sure everything goes, right? So that's a case in which I would take something to
really enhance
productivity and focus. You know, I might do a microdose like 10 to 20 micrograms of LSA, or LSD on Monday morning and, you know, those are just a couple of examples, but
For you personally, I'm curious to hear as a guy who's kind of steeped in this, what a micro dosing protocol would look like for you, if you would, if you would care to walk me through, like, let's say like a week in the life of Paul when it comes to the use of such
substances. So the way that I started micro dosing was in 2015, I heard about it on the, the Tim Ferriss podcast, Jim fadiman who's been? Oh, yeah, I guess on the show and talked about it. And I had previous experience with psychedelics, like when I was 19 and 20 had high doses of LSD and psilocybin, and notice that after those experiences
I always had that sort of afterglow affect things, just felt easier. I was more inflow is more connected. It was even more disciplined about meditation or die dot. Not during budget days after in the week or two week after right? After having those high dose experiences. And so when I heard about Mike reducing and some of the benefits that people were experiencing from it, I thought back to that Afterglow period, I thought, hey, Mike reducing seems like a really interesting tool to elongate that Afterglow of feeling. So that instead of it just being a week or two weeks, it could be a month or two months.
Or three months, right? So, the way that I first started microdose in was twice a week on LSD, anywhere from 15 to 20 micrograms, just as a way to get a feel for it to see how I helped with an eye to core intentions for that time. One was to help with flow and productivity so to wake up in the morning and get into the zone and things that I was working on. And the business that I was building at the time, just to cut out distractions and be really in. It be more articulate, be more refined about what it is that I wanted to create. And the second core sort of intention was around social
And just instead of using something like alcohol when I was going out and spending time with friends, I would instead microdose with LSD in particular LSU to help with that sense of feeling connected and feeling own and feeling like I could be vulnerable with people. And so those seven months went phenomenally
well and and and quite quite notably with far less toxicity. Far less toxic far less. Liver damage.
No hangover far,
less. Yeah. Hey, like that way cleaner than say
alcohol and it's not even like it's not far less damage. It's also a ton of benefits.
It's right, right? Like in microdose, it has anti-inflammatory, it helps neurogenesis, it helps increase, bdnf, growth helps with General, sort of mindfulness and being able to direct attention in certain ways and places. And so now that I've been microdose in almost six years on and off right with LSD with psilocybin would San Pedro with cannabis. I've tried iboga a couple times typically my microdose seen way is now two or three times a week. If I'm with LSD to usually twice a week as LSD is more dopaminergic. So LSD.
He has a bit more of a sort of manic effect, right? It can be really intense and so only twice a week, if I microdose and and
also tolerance sense to build for that as well as potentially, like a dopamine desensitization, which is honestly, why this is this quite trendy these days people do dopamine fast right where I'm just going to put potatoes for three days you know and then food all of a sudden is way better or I'm not going to use any substances for a couple of weeks or watch funny movies, or do, do anything that really induces.
Is pleasure and very stoic sense of the word not in a form of masochistic self-denial for life. But in a way that allows you to kind of reset some of those dopamine receptors, the same way. You might quit drinking coffee for week out of every month to keep your dentist in receptor sensitized. So yeah, so something like micro dosing with LSD. You wouldn't do it like every
day. No twice a week at the most with micro dicing psilocybin. I'll usually do it three times a week every other day and then the intention is simply do it in the morning. First thing, when I wake up on an empty stomach with a
Biotic or with rhodiola or with, you know, some other supplements. I usually don't, I usually fast in the morning, so I don't eat anything. So it's almost always on an empty stomach. And then sometimes that's on a day off. I'm going hiking, I'm spending time with friends, I'm going for a bike ride. I'm doing what we're going to do later today, which was just sort of a tuning, my sensitivity through sensuality in the world around me. Right? And then there are other days where it's like, this is a brainstorming day. This is the day to get to sort of you know, how have that sense of stepping back and seeing what the bigger picture?
Might be. And this is where we get into micro dosing versus many dosing versus Museum dosing. There's different ways that we can calibrate these different ways that we can calibrate our dose level based on our attention for the day. Because if we're wanting to have more of a flow state, right, a microdose is going to be better for that because it allows us to maintain focus and attention and stay grounded. But as you know, like the difference between let's say 200 milligrams of psilocybin and 500 milligrams of psilocybin is significant. When you're on 200 milligrams of psilocybin, a true microdose.
It's easier to stay grounded and focus, but if you have more than that, let's say 500 milligrams of psilocybin. You tend to feel a little bit more like the 50,000 foot view, right? And so, I love those dose levels for, like, going for a long hike, having a journaling session, and being able to zoom out and go, what is the next month, look, like? What is the next 3 months look like? What is the next six months look like maybe the next three years. Five years, depending on the dose level, getting that sense of touching, getting back in touch with a higher level vision, and just sort of aligning that North,
Earth star about where is it? That I'm heading personally professionally as the to intermingle and intertwine and then the micro dosing helps with just the day-to-day of doing the tasks that need to get done to sort of accomplish or reach that larger vision of what I've set out for myself. That's a really good
description. I don't think I've heard such a good description before of the subtle nuances between a small microdose and a larger microdose because in my own experimentation, I've certainly found that to be the case but
I wasn't really able to explain it the way that you just had. It's as though the larger microdose. Let's say, 500 milligrams of psilocybin. It's not as though you're tripping, but you, you do, turn into wanting to engage in very big Visionary tasks and and sometimes it can be disappointing. If you realize you take, you've taken too much and you're supposed to be, lets say work on the nuts and bolts of an article. But instead, you're more in a mindset where you're able to map out the
The idea for the next 10 articles but not work on the One. You're supposed to be working on whereas like a microdose you're churning out amazingly creative sentences in that one article useful. And I'm obviously explain this from the perspective of someone who's a writer, right? And so that's what I've certainly experienced. But yeah, the way that you've just explained it is perfect. Like if you take a little bit too much, it's not as though it's destroyed your day but you may have to reinvent the way that you approach that day as far as what you choose to be productive in based on big Vision versus smaller smaller.
Smaller more focused task. So, you know, another another thing I wanted to ask you was, you know, you said that you've, you know, you've used a lot of different such substances for micro dosing. You mentioned that iboga, for example, which I've also used as almost like a pre-workout. You know, if the South African bush extract that is large. Doses is probably one of the more intense. If not the most intense strips of the one can engage in.
What? What other substances
have you microdose that perhaps
fly?
Under the radar or that people may not be as aware of.
Or DMT is an embassy
or stacked
together? Yeah. DMT is an interesting one. So in 2017, I was giving a talk in Bushwick and Brooklyn after a conference with Hamilton Morris and a few other Duncan Trussell and a few other folks and talked about micro dosing DMT in that session. And then someone came up to me afterwards and was like, thanks for mentioning DMT. Vape pens. Here's a free vape pen. And so then for the next three or four months, every now, and then, I would start my morning meditation with a microdose of end.
DMT not 5 m. Yo, time, yo, is the unity Consciousness, the toe that's much more intense but and DMT is where we see aliens and praying mantises and yeah, and those sorts of things. So, I would start with that, was just a 10 to 15-minute thing, but it would wash instantly a line sort of all my chakras, and send me a really deep deep meditation. And then I would come out of that like really refreshed and rejuvenated. How long would you meditate with something like
that? I'm actually asking because I have an end, EMT pain downstairs and I have I just sitting down there somewhere with all my
Freaking Pantry, full stuff downstairs but I haven't really even mess around with his hot. How did you use
it? Like 20, 25, 30 minutes, you know, depending how long you want to stay in that state would be one or two hits that you would take with that. And then you can instantly drop into a deep meditation. Combine it with the Apollo neuro on the meditation and mindfulness. Yeah, setting. And then just get into that state like really, really
quick. Okay, I'm gonna have to show you the bio charger later on because I often will meditate with the bio charger which is light radio frequencies right frequencies, and
And pmf is giant. You'll, you probably saw it downstairs, and you were in the sauna room that thing. When you meditate in front of it, I mean, you literally feel just sweeping up and down your body and now that, you know, you feel me on the Apollo knew, or what I'll do, is I'll try a little bit of that in DMT pain at some point next week, I'll do the Apollo noro, but I'll probably do it in front of the bio charger and I'll, I'll see how you're gonna fill you in on how that goes. That's interesting. I actually really like to combine technology, you know, like like the new calm, the hyperbaric chamber breathwork the sauna
As the cold pool, you know, the Apollo the happy with some of these substances and and even for example like the massage that I get once a week, you know, I'll use typically a little bit of ketamine often with a little bit of THC prior to relax the body. But it's on a full sound acoustic table with pulsed electromagnetic fields under the table, and typically, an oil diffuser at some point around the table. So you're getting the aromatherapy. And then I've also got what's called a key underneath the table in the key eqi.
Is designed to emit, emit a signal, you know, very, very similar to the type of signal that you might get with, if you were Barefoot on the planet Earth or absorb much a negative ion. So, I'll stack all that stuff together. But I honestly, I don't know about you. I kind of like the the combined use of the so-called, you know, ancient Technologies with the modern Technologies and I think that's something that has yet to be really heavily tapped into or systematize and in the use of these medicines or
introducing
protocols 1, 2018 as it as one of the projects that I did. So I started third wave in 2015 which is the the platform in the podcast and the guides and everything that you mentioned before. But I also in 2018, started a legal psilocybin Retreat Center in the Netherlands called synthesis. Oh, really? And we did experiences for 750 people, with psilocybin truffles, because it's legal in the Netherlands, we rented out this beautiful church that was built about a hundred years ago. That have been renovated into a modern Wellness Center, with attached departments, and a sauna, and a beautiful ceremonial space.
We would host 15 people. There at a time for these high dose experiences. And the way that I came up with that name synthesis was precisely what you mentioned. How can we create an experience a container for people where they can combine cutting-edge Technologies? Like, let's say float tanks or let's say, you know, being in a church and write that sort of thing with these these age-old practices of psilocybin and breathwork and meditation and what are the synthesis of those two coming together?
Either to sort of inform this new way of being. Right? And now, even what synthesis is doing is they've rolled out a medical program so it's still there that this retreat in the Netherlands. Well, we put it on pause because of covid, but we pivoted and rolled out a clinical training program where we're training a hundred clinicians to be approved to have licenses in the state of Oregon to be able to do psilocybin therapy when that becomes legally feasible. So we're looking at, you know, closing on a certain place there in Oregon to host.
Appearances of Retreats and essentially looking at how synthesis can combine those to create even new models of clinical care. Right? Where clinical cares so far has been like in a psychiatric office or a hospital or something. That is not even what your brother was talking about last night. It's just not that conducive for real healing. So
my brother Zack he's like yeah I did ketamine and I didn't really get much out of these frames. So so I told my first kind of experience was with dr. Matthew Cooke? Yeah, you know, Wonderful physician has been this.
Cast multiple times on in San Jose and it was like a two-hour dinner with him the night before, talking about what to expect, and how the entire experience went. And then going to his office in the morning and doing breath work, and getting in a div and cleaning out the whole body. And then your shifted into this room with like, you know, like special Chinese lanterns and a rug and meditation, cushions and a wonderful bed to lie down in a face mask. And then, you know, to, you know, like noise blocking
That you put on and then a slow ketamine infusion overseen, by a nurse and there's like a voice recorder in the room and and then after the ketamine, you're still there for another like two hours, just laying back and little Journal, besides you to write things down in and my brothers? Like, yeah, I just like, sat down. And they just like, inject me with a bunch of stuff and just like, left me in this, like, medical room, and then, I couldn't stand up that well, but then they sent me out to the parking lot, cause they're about to close. And I had to senator in the parking lot for how to drive away.
My car. I'm like, no, that wasn't her. That was not Academy. That was basically medical malpractice, not Academy
experience. And that's what happens when you try to fit these profound. Incredible substances into the typical medical monocles. The typical medical model is you're here for an hour. You pay for the hour and then you leave, whereas what psychedelics are introducing is it's a model of care. It's a model of supports model of love, so all of these substances when they're used, need to be done in a sentence setting in a container that supports a nourishes, the individual as they're moving through this. So it's a total reframing of how were viewing.
Health care. How were viewing? Psychiatry where it's not so much of a focus on the substance itself if you will. But it's about the preparation, it's about the container in which you're doing the substance. It's about the integration afterwards with the support of a therapist or a community that we really have to look at the holistic integrative picture when we're working with these substances because so much of what they're bringing up is stuff from the subconscious in the unconscious that we just. Right. It's not the typical biomedical model anymore that we're
looking at yeah II invested in field trip Health which
Which was they rolled out a bunch of ketamine clinics in Canada and are also opening in New York and in Allah and they have a podcast, you can go learn more about triple what they do. You have field trip around that we run on Levi. Yeah. And, you know, I really like that approaching during covid edit pivot, a little bit. I think they created an app that you know, where you can actually with your own ketamine. You know, you'll follow all the instructions in the app with the special musical sequences and you have like a coach who kind of walks you through the whole process and your home. And so I think
There are ways that you can kind of combine, enabling someone using technology and apps almost like a telemedicine approach, along with these type of clinics. But then you were telling me last night in the sauna about another critic, but I think you said it was empty on and then and they're doing like a DMT in Germania. Yeah, to talk about that. As you're explaining just opening the kimono for folks, I'm going to walk over to the fridge and grab a zvf. My voice gets fat. You want anything?
I would like anything
quite so Phyllis on. Empty on we're listening. Go
ahead.
Like I said at the end biomedical is a company that's out of out of Vancouver, Canada and they are looking at intravenous DMT for addiction in particular. So the CEO Timothy KO who we had on third was podcast. He started it may be about 18 months ago because he had his own DMT experiences and end EMT. Not 5 m, EO, @ n DMT and realize they could be a profoundly useful way to treat addiction because unlike a psilocybin or an Alice D which can last for anywhere from 6 to 12 hours with
You can bring someone into that deep state of hyung for addiction. And it might only last 20 or 30, or 40 minutes. And if you can titrate that through an intravenous sort of constant and then you can actually calibrate how deep someone goes into some large. What you do with ketamine, you cannot you
can open it up or back off a little bit more using intravenous. Instead of like oral administer. Cheers, by the way, there's a podcast brought to you by Z via cream soda, ginger root beer, which I established last night is wonderful with the Mezcal tequila and you've got ginger root beer, which is really
Be good with like a coconut. Vanilla ice cream for a root beer. Float. Oh my God. That is good.
Wowser. Calories zero calories. Brought to you
by Stevia, Jack decks are pretty good company. They use like really good form of stevia. They don't mix with a bunch of maltodextrin. I had the, the I had somebody analyze, the Kansas actually got like, low metals, and cleaning stuff, so, I don't know. I'm sure someday. They'll find something wrong with it and I'm calcifying my penny'll glanders. Yeah, but it's not for not bad. So this auntie on, basically, they're letting you on infused.
So rather than getting that blast off to the universe type of insulation that a lot of people experience often freak out during you're getting a lot of those those same type of benefits but with a slow infusion it's
like the the parallel or the the analogy is psycholytic therapy versus psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy. So these are the two core ways that psychedelic has have been used in a therapeutic modality psychedelic. Assisted Psychotherapy, is the typical, you know, the thing that Johns Hopkins and NYU have study which is high dose of psilocybin.
Seven mystical experience in the stronger, the mystical experiences, the more profound healing someone has for depression addiction. These other things, the psycholytic is more like a mini dose level where the ego is still present, but it's relax. It's not near as rigid and so you can do actually therapeutic sessions while you're on the DMT, you're not just totally in another right, right? And so I think the, the balance between those two, the psycholytic is much less intense and probably better for someone who is overly neurotic or it is that doesn't have a lot of Prior experience.
Get Alex. Where's the Psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy. It was great for people who have significant deep issues that need to be worked through. And it can often accelerate that path moving quickly because the experiences are so intense.
Yeah, I actually want to ask you something about this whole idea of the Psychedelic assisted Psychotherapy. Because I often wonder how much of it is the Psychedelic or the substance, or the medicine and how much of it is the integration? And what I mean by that is when
When someone goes through a process like this, especially if they're using, let's just say, let's call this, let's it. You're using a drug right to to fix a problem that you have the mirror nature of the fact that you're going to a clinic working with a professional, taking this huge leap into the unknown. To, perhaps use some substance that you've never used before to go after some problem or it were addiction that you're experiencing. And then if you're in the right type of program, engaging in often weeks of therapy,
And talk therapy and sometimes weeks going in beforehand.
Dictates that there's a
lot going on in addition to the drug or the Psychedelic, both psychologically, and logistically throughout this entire process. When I interviewed dr. Matthew Johnson about the the extremely successful, nicotine, addiction to nicotine withdrawal program that they did using their psilocybin. Assisted therapy. At Johns Hopkins. He sent me the entire package that every part,
Has been had to go through, I have it all printed off down in my office and its extensive is like aromatherapy and logging and journaling and multi our meetings with a therapist and yeah there's also psilocybin but I sometimes wondered and I wish there were more control trials where they say okay, we're going to do all this shit but without the Psychedelic without the drug and you know, I'm just curious. You know how much of it actually is the Psychedelic a question that sometimes
I mean it's a significant portion
Now that this is sort of a new substance a new way of looking at things and what MDMA can do, for example, with the amygdala in terms of helping to mitigate its fear response almost for those people who struggle with PTSD to be able to have this catharsis of the trauma that happened. So, there's definitely an element of the Psychedelic, plays a key in central row role, in accelerating that process, and there's no doubt that the support before and after particularly, after plays a really critical role to help. Ensure that people,
I can integrate those experiences so it's not just another drug experience that you're having but it's something that becomes solidified in part of your you know your new self or what. Yeah
that's the hardest part for me is explaining this to people who are kind of stuck in almost like that first wave or second wave phenomenon of I guess would be second wave of vilifying. A lot of these things because they do view it as just doing substances or doing drugs and not doing the work or using the drug as a crutch.
Yet another addiction to replace an addiction that you've had is it's almost like my gut response is always like don't get don't knock it till you tried it bro. I mean really until you've been in that altered state of consciousness and combined it in a responsible set and setting with the type of integration, that's necessary afterwards, until you've replaced that Association that you have of cannabis being like a high school parking lot. Taking a hit on a joint with like let's say,
Micro dose to enhance creativity for the day or a couple of hits on a vape pen, prior to Sacred sex, with your lover. I
mean, like, it's just this idea
that when I try to explain that to people, especially people who like grew up in the 60s or who have had bad experiences, these type of drugs use an improper set and setting. It's like it's so difficult to explain,
you know, it's almost like the people who
have done Ayahuasca and come
back with all these this wonderful ideas but they
Like vomit all over their whole family of no idea and just can't understand and almost like wines of driving them farther away from their family than closer because the other people just don't get the experience. You know,
it's it's been problematic for me personally just just trying to explain to people who don't get it
but also have no interest in even trying or using it because of the fear that they associate with it or that your responsibilities that they
associate with it. Want anything that speaks to like people are going to come into this and their own time, right? You don't want to like have to pull anyone or overly
Evangelize people to come into this, because these experiences are so profound and often so challenging and difficult, right? It takes a lot of courage to go into your deepest sense of self to face a lot of the things that you hadn't previously faced. In fact, they did research at Imperial College that showed exactly this that they compared typical antidepressants to psychedelics and what antidepressants dues? That activate the 5-ht one, a receptor in the brain, which essentially numbs you to things, which can be helpful in the short term, but clearly not in the
Long term, whereas what psychedelics do is because they activate the 5-ht to a receptor, it actually is the catharsis of forces you to go into your subconscious and unconscious to face that trauma or that difficult experience that you had. That's informing your behavior without your knowledge and in facing that and going into that and having that catharsis. That's how you actually heal it. All right, it's like to you gotta face the dragon to get the gold. Yeah, so you got a really, really sort of go into these deep parts of yourself. This Shadow the filth if you will. And and, and
That it's not for everyone back to what we said before, right? Like, this is certainly not for everyone. It requires courage, it requires a really strong reason and belief into how this can help. And then if you have that courage in the nobility, you go there and you have the support the prep and the integration, then it can be incredibly
healing incredibly
beneficial. So it's and this this again gets back into our conversation, right? Like not doing psychedelics at all. I don't think that's necessarily a great but also doing psychedelics too often can be
Associate of you, kind of have to find that middle way, right working with psychedelics and thread that needle to ensure that they become responsibly integrated. And you're not just dismissing them but you're also not overly reliant on them. You you're able to integrate those experiences and move forward with them as a tool in the toolkit but not being dependent on that tool. And you're like,
you're with third wave your training. Are you training facilitators? Like you have some kind of program where like training people or
training coaches to actually walk people through this kind of stuff.
So a lot of the programs that are now rolling out in the Psychedelic space are specifically for the clinical use of psychedelics, right? Because of all the research that's coming out. So let's have them for major depressive disorder. MDMA for PTSD Maps, has their own training program for clinicians synthesis. Roll out a training program, there are several others because we have to train thousands, tens of thousands of clinicians and how to work with these substances in the next three to five to seven years as this becomes approved, by the FDA. And so that's a very
Clinical model we're helping people with depression addiction things like that. With third wave in the program that we've rolled out. There's clearly a lot of use cases for clinical but there's a lot of non clinicians executive coaches, Wellness, coaches, life coaches, even medical, doctors counselors therapists, who are not necessarily focused on a healing perspective but are looking at sort of a mind expansion or human potential, right? How can people integrate these substances to become their best selves to reach self-actualization to
reach their greatest potential. And so what were bringing
folks through to run a marathon faster? Something that's actually return Fatima tour. He's like, here's your microprocessor that was D and I was some dude. Like increases Marathon performance by like 20%, which is great, right. These are tools
for everything. And so what we're training coaches and is the non clinical use of psychedelics and it's not necessarily A lot of these folks already facilitate but we're not necessarily Focus. Explicitly on facilitation. It's much more. The general context of psychedelic substances. How you prepare? How you
What's the usefulness for leadership for flow for Optimal Wellness? How do we set up ritual? How do we set up, you know, an experience and a container that we bring clients through? How do you even communicate to clients that? This is something that you're aware of that? This is something that you're skilled in that you're trained in and then and then in and we're rolling out the first cohort in like
July night. So it's very soon and these are called like third wave coaches. Yeah. And and then, and then
what we're building for third wave in the back. End of that is a directory.
So right now on third way, we have the guides coach dried grass. It's a coach directory, it's basically a provider directory. We have coaches, we have clinicians, we have Retreats and we have clinics and we're rolling out. That directory is sort of like the best of the best if you're going to have a psychedelic experience. Here's an individual, a coach or a clinician that you can work with. Here's a retreat that you can go to here's a
clinic that you should go to. So we're partnering with that have been vetted and trained by going through your guys's
some across, some of them like the coaches themselves. Yeah. So the
People who then go through our program, not only re providing the training for them, but we're also providing some of the marketing about okay. Now that you've gone through this, how can you communicate to the public? There are trained in working with really, really powerful. Yeah,
there's a that's actually it's kind of so much for I did with the been grateful coaching program, you know, different not not plant medicines but we're more like you know, hormones and endocrine system and and you know, got and brain function. But then also what we do is like a coach directory. We haven't coached liaison, who connects the
Different clients that come with due to coach that's going to be appropriate for them. And then that, you know, the coaches are typically are required to be a personal trainer or a nutritionist or registered dietitian or a physician but then we dress up their knowledge with a working knowledge of basically you know, everything I've gotten boundless and you know just like my whole flavor of training and coaching and Advising and it sounds like you're kind of doing something similar but in the plant medicine sector. So I could say, okay, well if I really want to work with a coach who I
No has been trained using a lot of Paul's ways and some of what you see when you go to the third wave website, I can just go to this third wave, coach directory, and find a bench. And then similarly let's let's say I've got like somebody was saying who's a personal trainer or physical therapist and they want to amp up their resume to be able to not only coach people were fat loss but also you know be able to get people working knowledge of how to microdose effectively for productivity. They could also go through a certain like that. Yeah,
and that's what we cover. We cover Mike reducing. We also cover higher Doses and then recovering like, non Psychedelic modalities breathwork Meditation.
Diet, sleep leadership, all these things, that support the experiences that we have. When we're microdose, IAM when we're on hired is is right. We're saying, hey, like you're a coach, you have all these tools that you're using is part of your tool kit, psychedelics can be the most impactful one that you use to optimize client outcomes. That because so much of coaching is getting a clear sense of where the client wants to go helping them to understand what objective they want to reach and then guiding them through that path to reach that objective. And so if you have a
Cool. Like psychedelics that are shown through clinical research to improve, you know, neurobiology and to help with adaptability to help with learning and to help with behavioral change. How can you then integrate them into your sort of protocol that you're using with the client? In addition to other things to optimize those outcomes? And of course, because they're accelerants, you need a container, you need to be trained in it and this gets back to what we talked about with. What is the third wave will? It's the responsible in intentional use of psychedelics. And if we
Want to avoid the same mistakes of the second wave. Then we essentially need to train an entire like Professional Network of folks who can work with these substances in a really profound and meaningful way. I'm looking at this other
thing you have on your micro dosing
course, is this, is this for
coaches, or is this one for? Just like, that's more of the general public. So we've
had that for about four years and we said, hey, you know, we were talking a lot about Mike, reducing and micro dosing is not just simply, you know, you take a little bit of LSD twice,
You can see what happens. There's so much more around
the micro do some reading. Reading that says the science behind micro dosing the shifting legal landscape, the wide world of micro dosing applications and benefits, how to dial in your optimal state of being preparing for liftoff, getting started with micro dosing, your micro dosing experience your first month of micro dosing integration daily life and then macro dosing bonus module like much like videos and tracking templates. So this would be for somebody who's not
Necessarily coach. But just like somebody who wants to just like learn everything, there is to know about micro dosing. We
have a lot of coaches and therapists and doctors and other professional psychiatrist who enroll in that because of having clients come to them who are interested in micro dosing. But it's also for, you know, like an Enthusiast who has heard about Mike reducing insert about the benefits of it. Maybe they've tried Mike reducing ones but they didn't see a lot of outcomes from it and they're like, okay I really want to dial this in. How can I make sure that I'm as dialed in as possible with this tool and so that's what that course is.
Perfectly. For again, teaching that skill of Mike, reducing how we calibrate the dose levels, what different substances we use, what intentions we going with that. What are other supporting modalities that can help to nourish us while we're going through a micro dosing protocol. All those sorts of things
are ten day, money back guarantee that you learn how to make a carrot cakes movie. Have I learned. No, do you learn during my course, we can. This module will do a video that will do a video tomorrow morning.
Dude, you got so much going on here. I mean, this website's really cool and I'm going to link to it in the show notes. And I'll link to this coaching cert to and also this micro dosing course. What are you guys? You give me a discount of those attempt. $10 different 10% discount code for the certification
program. There's a 10% discount for anyone is just cut
Ben Greenfield. Yep
okay and I think for the mic reducing course that they're like I'll double check on that but yeah I'm
percent if I know I know we got come out on our teams do all sorts of stuff figure that out the show we're supposed to sit around and
Gotta talk about getting cold pools and drink CVI and and play Frisbee golf. Will everybody else go behind the scenes? But what but what I will do for all you listening and if you go to Ben Greenfield, fitness.com, Paul Austin, that's Ben Greenfield, fitness.com sighs, Paul Austin, just like it sounds all linked to to Paul's third website. And also this synthesis Retreat that he's created over and over in Amsterdam. But then I'll link to all these coaching certs and also, some of the other podcast that we talked about like my pocket is Jamie wheal.
And with Jim fadiman and Paul's actually got a book called micro dosing psychedelics and all you're working on new book now. And dude I just I really love the stuff you're putting out and I think I think it's super helpful and I also the reason I want to interview was because of just a lot of crap out there and and because I you know, I eat my own dog food like we're talking about before like why we don't do a video podcast I'm like I don't really watch a video podcast. I listen to podcasts. That's mostly what I do. Same thing like like I'd love to open people up to the same type of advice.
That I Rely Upon for my own micro dosing protocols, and what I've learned in your websites, like way up there. As far as like one of the best resources. I think. So. Thank you. So good on you as they say down under and I guess I guess at this point we have to gear up for me to kick your ass in frisbee golf. I was that was yeah. Yeah I think frisbee golf is going to happen and for those of you listening in again, Ben Greenfield fitness.com /, Paul, Austin is where you can learn more about Paul and check out his course, check out
Micro dosing course for your coach. Check out the micro dosing. Third, wave coaching certification, I guess micro dosing and macro dosing, third wave, coach certification, a link to all that. And Paul dude give me a chairs with the Ziva. Cheers clink, clink. Thanks for coming on the show, man. Thanks for having, thanks for. Thanks for
visiting spoke Compton. Oh yeah, it's tons of fun.
Hi folks. I'm Ben Greenfield, long, pause and have an amazing week. Well, thanks for listening to Today's Show.
Can grab all the show notes, the resources pretty much everything that I mentioned over at Ben Greenfield fitness.com along with plenty of other goodies from me, including the highly helpful Ben recommends page, which is a list of pretty much everything that I've ever recommended for hormones, sleep digestion, fat loss, performance, and plenty more. Please also know that all the links, all the promo codes that I mentioned during this and every episode Help
to make this podcast happen and to generate income that enables me to keep bringing you this content every single week. So when you listen in, be sure to use the links in the show notes, use the promo codes that generate because that helps to float this thing and keep it coming to you each and every week.
