A conversation with Scott Santens, the original UBI advocate

I can't tell you just walking around really anywhere people, recognize me and are excited to see me and the rest of it. And one of the things they'll always say to me is they'll say, love you be. I don't be like that. And it happens to me frequently enough where I guarantee that these people are not hanging out on forums or you know that like they're not, they don't strike me as activists. And so it seems like there's a ton of energy and one of my

X now is to try and figure out how to both grow that energy and also translated into action and policy.

There's so much that can happen at the, at the local level that that I don't think enough people like appreciate where, you know, if it may sound like you can't, you know, get your member of Congress or, you know, something to do anything. But there's certainly things. Like, even another thing that happened in this, this the pandemic was the mayor's for guaranteed income launched and then suddenly, that open the

And if people to contact their mayor's and encourage them to join this and launch a bunch

of other thing you can do, right? And it is the March, you can yell at your mayor behind KY, aren't you? Part of Mayors were guaranteed income

and the way that works is, you know, you get mayor's on board and then suddenly that lends this idea more Creedence

Welcome back to Yang speaks everybody. It is Monday July 19th. Happy Monday. This is your co-host Zack grauman before we get today's episode just a quick reminder we've got basically some really exciting stuff coming down the pike this fall and he's got exciting stuff. I've got exciting stuff Carly and Yang Yang friends have exciting stuff.

Going to be a really exciting fall this summer. We're going to be trying a number of new formats but we're going to keep coming at you. Yang on Mondays and Carly Riley and myself on Thursdays with variety of different formats. Do not miss it. It's going to be great. I think you're gonna like we're coming out with and you're going to love what we're coming out with this fall. Anyway, today's episodes on universal basic income and cash relief with a oh, gee, he's not only OG yangyang. This guy was basically the foremost thought leader on

Basic income in the country. Scott's Anton's joins the podcast is a long time overdue. We wanted to do. We want to do it right in this was done right right now. Scott Stevens joins Andrew Yang on Yang speaks right now.

And we are back and it is my pleasure to welcome to Yang. Speaks the OG, the original Ubi Godfather, my inspiration and educator for many things. Scott's Anton's Scott.

Welcome. Hey, Andrew. Good to see you. It's great to

see you as well. So the most important thing is, did you just try the knob? Did you just get married? You just get back from some some very ground, bound honeymoon, like tell us more.

Plus more, I did. I did I got married on June 16th and I got married on a beach in Florida. We did like a big like over two week long road trip driving to a bunch of different places.

That's fantastic. Congratulations man. Were you with your now wife when you and I were hanging out in New Orleans, those years

ago? Yeah. We've been together since 2012. So before I was even in to Ubi

before you were into Ubi,

Can you all imagine all the ladies, listen to this, your boyfriend coming back and being like, hey is this thing? Universal? Basic income. We should totally make it happen. I'm going to get myself. One case, you actually got yourself one by the time you and I met in 2017, you already had a universal basic income and it kind of appointed yourself. The Prototype which I have to say is the greatest thing. It was the greatest thing of all time. So I want you to reflect

Act on that time. In New Orleans, when I got a drink with you and I was like, Hey I'm going to run for president on universal basic income. Do you remember that?

Oh absolutely yeah out always remember that as a as a big day

and then so what did you think? When

I said it I was extremely excited about that Prospect and I was already like my mind was already. Worrying was already like buzzing about the idea of you like on the debate stage.

Age on a national, you know, platform talking about basic income was just thinking, like, how, like, how much that would push the movement forward it for suddenly, like everyone watching to be like, hearing this debate happened and the other candidates would have to like, have a stance on basic income and everything, so it was really exciting.

And I remember you having that reaction I have to say, Scott, your reaction was so pure and unusual because there was no

Or anything at all. You're just like sure. Like and your mind was going towards the practicalities. So how did you first get into Ubi and then make it happen for yourself because it really is kind of a dream.

Yeah, yeah. I got back I got into it back in 2013 and it was really through kind of the same route that so many have been introduced to through you.

Which was the technology route which is this idea of automation the impacts of automation potential future the effects of it and how to you know, essentially make technology work for us and it was this actually through the front page of Reddit. There was a conversation about like how no one was talking about how quickly things were going, what? That was leading to. And so through that I started, I was introduced to the idea of basic income through, actually, the reading the book called,

Man up by Marshall brain which was about like the automation of middle management. Really and what that would do like starting their and going on and yeah just read more about it and learned about like, the history of it. I had no idea about what happened like under Nixon and stuff. I had no idea about the pilots that it happened in the US and Canada just fascinated to look into all the evidence and you know looked into like the philosophy behind it and looked into just really learned more about the way the existing safety Networks.

And after all that was just like, well this is an extremely important idea, not just for the future but something that we should have done actually decades ago that we need to do immediately. And reaching that conclusion, I was like I can't spend any time on anything else because this is a too important of an issue.

I love it. So you read this book mana and then you said this has to happen immediately and then you said I'm going to devote my life to making it happen made of the that's pretty extraordinary. So I want people to get a sense as to

Who and what you are now, but Scott is the most prolific Universal basic income, Advocate on the internet and has essentially this compendium of materials for everything. Under the sun Ubi related has addressed any question like ten times over? It's like built like it is this this awesome library and so back to

C13. What were your next steps? And when did you actually start getting a universal basic income for

yourself? Yes. One of the first things I did was they got involved as a moderator on the basic income subreddit and I tried to, you know, engage in those conversations, find like materials to post there. And also, you know, consumers money, much materials they could to learn more. Then eventually, I got to the point where I felt, I was comfortable enough to start, like, writing about basic income and trying

You basically serve as like a popularizer and like translator of academic materials to try to explain things simpler in a more shareable consumable way. And then around late 2014 was discovered like patreon and I thought well this is like actually a really interesting kind of twist on Kickstarter where instead of like trying to to crowdfund like one stack of something for something.

This was like a, an ongoing monthly crowdfunding and I thought, well, this is potentially a brilliant way of crowdfunding a monthly basic income for perpetuity. So I decided to go for that and it's funny to like that was actually that conversation I had with, with my wife, Katie, you know, at that time was just like, I have this idea. I think that I can, I can they think I can achieve this, and I could focus on those full-time if I can do it.

And you know, I'm like, well, she thought, well, you know, maybe just she was hesitant and, you know, doubtful but, you know, I did it. And we look back at that conversation to it's like, well, yeah. Like we sure enough. You put your mind to it. You did

it. So when you say you did it, you went out to the Reddit community and said, hey guys, I want to popularize Universal basic income. So chip in 25 bucks a month and then I know people do it. Then I can just do this all the time. Was that the picture?

Or what

was the pitch. Yeah, essentially. So I the the, when I set up my patreon it was like, so this is the goal of this is to crowdfund a basic income so that I can focus full-time on basic income, and sorry, launched that in late 2014. And it took all of 2015 to, you know, build it over time. And then I achieved my goal of $1,000 per month starting in January of 2016. So it was also interesting that process where, you know, I would write

And then you put at the end, you can support me on patreon and you know, doing podcasts and stuff. You get the word out and then just slowly over time. More people would join in and start donating say, $1 a month, five dollars a month or something and that process was as the educational in itself because you know when I was at say four hundred dollars per month like just that's not a thousand dollars per month but because I knew that a four hundred dollars per month would be there on the first of next month. Then that in

Itself was like this reduction of insecurity like this kind of feeling like that that's going to be there and it's gonna make a difference. And so, that's even why I feel as I feel about like smaller base getting comes where, you know, people say, oh, thousand dollars a month, that's nothing. It's like, well, no. Like even 500 is really something 402, something. 300 something it's all something to actually know that it's going to be there to have that stable source of security.

I just want to say just a total aside, I was just notified that I

I was going to get a hundred sixty-four dollar check for the Korean royalties of the war on normal people and I was like a hundred sixty four dollars. Great. So I'm with you like you know, it like everything is something, you know like that it felt meaningful and if that was coming in every month it would be tremendously impactful for just about anyone, I think.

Yeah, absolutely.

So it takes you a year to get this thousand bucks a month. We might as well. Do this segue right now? If someone wants to support you, they go to Scotts Anton's.com.

Yeah, it's a patreon.com slash Scott's, Anton's. Or you can find me yet through my website at Scott's Anton's.com,

I'm a contributor.

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So Scott was the Prototype and had been making this case, since before, I arrived on the scene. And when I was educating myself in 2017, Scott was the first place on the internet I stopped. And I remember this vividly Scott. I looked at your social media and I said, wow, Scott said it says a hundred thousand followers that means a hundred thousand people must love Universal basic income.

That's what I thought I got together with you and other people. There's a universal basic income community that has grown. And one of the things that we're going to talk about in a little bit, is the State of Affairs right now because you're a senior adviser to humanity forward which has been lobbying for cash relief on Capitol Hill. So we can hear about the absolute latest but we'll continue on this timeline. So 27

Teen you and I sit down in New Orleans on my camera run for president on this and and you were enthusiastic which was not the case for for everyone. I mean, and I'm sure you remember when emails from me started popping up into the universal basic income manly was being like, hey guys running for president like here's what we need is a review and you were always like yeah, let's do it. It's great and other people were like

I'm a non-profit like, you know, so like there was a small clutch of people on that list serve like you and I were like, yeah.

And like, you know, the subreddit was there too, but like the subreddit it's just like the way that all this stuff works is, you know, let's say, 50,000 songs, 50,000 subscribers to a subreddit. It doesn't mean like everyone's, they're reading it all the time. Doesn't mean that everyone is like engaging. It, it doesn't mean everyone's like, clicking on the stuff so, you know, you have like a feels like there's a lot.

Out of support but then it comes down to like donating, then that's something different. And also it's like, you know, this is a, an idea that's that is most useful to the people who lack the money to help make it happen. So, it's like, that's another barrier to cross as well. There's just a smaller percentage of people that can actually, you know,

donate. Yeah. That is a problem for sure, in America, money talks. And so the people that need Universal basic income, the most aren't as

Visible or audible, you know, like you wouldn't believe some of the things that people said to me on the trail or even what. You just said, hey thousand bucks a month. Like, you know, that's not meaningful. Be like, well, if you talk to that person over there feeling that they really not that they'd be super amped about it. So 2018-2019 happens. And you were real champion on the trail. That was good fun. I would see you in Iowa. I would see you.

In different places, you'd pop up. So so what was the campaign like from your point of view? Because you, and I haven't really compared notes on it except for the, you know, times I'd actually see you.

Yeah. I mean, it was a real experience, you know, being able to go to Iowa to be a part of that they're on like the right before, the very first state, you know voted. And the thing that I remember most out of that experience

And this is just, you know, getting to meet so many members of the Yang Yang and all these different cities in Iowa and as I like drove across the state going on different places. And that's really what stuck with me is this like feeling of this, you know, family this community of people who really wanted to make a difference and they were there to, you know, try to try to change the world for the better doing this. This thing that was considered to be impossible for so many

And yeah that just really stuck with its incredible group of people and I'm very passionate about this idea and it just felt like more it felt like more like family instead of like you know just a

Well, there's a unifying Spirit to people who love Universal basic income and one of the things that I've grown to understand more fully is that I think people that love Universal basic income have a belief in humanity and a sense of possibility and those things are wonderful. And it's one reason why when I encounter people who supported me

On the campaign. I love them like, 95 times out of a hundred like really really positive optimistic. Wonderful people and there's a sense of what of abundance really that like we can do this. If you do. Well that's good for me. Like there's no like go. If you do well like it somehow hurts me, which unfortunately, I think is

Pervasive in American Life today where the scarcity mindset is so strong. So I'm so glad that you had that experience. I've talked to many people have had the same experience. I had the same experience. So aside from the times, I saw you in New Orleans because I came back and campaign and that was fun. I saw you in Iowa, where else did you and I hang out? Or what else did you campaign during during that time?

Well, I mean, I even

Thing to about our times. You know, it wasn't the first time that we met. When we met here in New Orleans, we met previously through to, you know, essentially like the origins of the economic security project. And you know I remember too that when we were sitting at like the it was called the cash conference and, you know, spend some time to spend some time together there, you know, sit and watch and stuff, and talking about, you know, making it making it happen, whereas like, you know, some other people were there talking.

Thing about these smaller steps and things. It's like, no. We just gotta do this.

I remember that, too. I remember sitting there with you and there were a couple of other people with us. That know, I'm still good friends with it was a fantastic launching pad and one of the things that happen for me. So, deciding to run for president, first exploring running for president because I thought, well, if someone else is going to do this and make this case better than me than, you know, I'm happy.

Not do it. But then going around being like, hey, you know what's going to do this? I don't like everyone was like, no looking around, I guess it's me and so you were pumped about it. And Andy stern was pumped about it. We should challenge was pumped about it, sir, campy, and Tina was probably about like their daring people were just like yeah, and a bunch of us were sitting together at that cash conference, remember.

And I remember,

To like, along the way, like there was a big moment it was just like such a long process. Like you said it was like 2017, we started running and, you know, the elections 2020, it's like this such a long ramp up and I remember watching your Joe Rogan appearance, you know, as it happened and you know, and I like a texted you afterwards the like right after I watched it be like the old this is this is going to be like a big, big thing. Like that was like an incredible appearance and some people

Watching it. Like this is new like that was going to be a moment and I sure enough like that was a really big shift in your entire campaign and, and I would say the uvi movement as a whole.

Yeah, it was, that had a historic feel as February, 20, 19, and the campaign did take off after that, we're after that, I'd get recognized on the street regularly, my wife Evelyn started, joking that we can't take you anywhere because it would

It would end up descending into, you know, selfies and one eye, which is cool. I mean, I enjoy that stuff but it was dragged for Evelyn because we just take us forever to get anywhere. So that was February. 2019 and then the debates or through the summer. Really did that summer to is enormous and then we wind up campaigning in Iowa in the winter of 2020 and then the campaign ends and then covid hits. And so at that point we started Humanity

You're now an advisor to and we converted to cash relief and advocacy and lobbying.

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The cares act got passed and then some time past there have been three checks that have gone out and child tax credit, that just kicked in. So 36 million families are getting three hundred bucks a month now and that's something that really should be extended in. Perpetuity mean, that that, yeah, that's an enormous part of the future in my mind, where do you see the current lobbying efforts on Capitol Hill and

How would we project forward the movement?

So yeah. First of all, a like your role in this is your campaign for president was just like perfectly timed for what ended up being this disastrous pandemic that happened just like right afterwards. I mean it was already starting to happen and wherever you know II remember reading news about Stone stuff coming to China and everything and it had no idea at the time that it was going.

Going to blow up into a pandemic and also like I remember thinking and in writing about this to thinking that, okay? When the next recession hits, then there's going to be a lot of automation that happens as a result. People are going to lose all our other jobs. Those jobs are going to come back. That's what happens during recessions. And so that will be this like Catalyst to really push basic income forward. But even thinking that I had no idea that thinking it would be a pandemic that would actually be this catalyst. So that

As it did like, just so many people becoming unemployed and also even employed, but losing so much income and you know this this massive Federal response. It happened like fortunately, I think that there's a connection there between this Rising popularity of basic income and this immediately going towards these twelve hundred dollar checks in the cares act. And you know it's like one of those things where I don't know if that would have happened.

In the same way, had you not one for president and had the basic income movement not been building up over the years, but it did happen that way. The $12 went out and I think that was a game-changer because then that set this new president and sure enough it was followed the next by $600. And again that wasn't going to happen immediately. Either like Humanity forward was was directly involved in in the happening. And I know that that was a

A moment of great pride for you to have been bought been involved.

Oh yeah, I had calls with, with dozens of members of Congress on both sides of the aisle. And one of the things that always impress them was the popularity of cash relief where pandemic casually have had something like eighty two percent

approval. Yeah. Well the most popular things that the government has ever done.

Yeah. I got a question that was 18%. They're like, no,

right? Well, not everyone got.

it,

so that those conversations,

Leading to actual relief for tens of millions of Americans was one of the high points of my life where, you know, imagine feeling like you might have played a role in billions of dollars, going out to people. I mean it's a really good feeling great feeling and then I was in Georgia and it ended up being one of the central issues in the entire. Freaking said, it raised over there where where the Democratic candidates were very openly campaigning on. Mm.

Relief checks and then Mitch McConnell ended up getting on board with part because he was trying to help the Republicans win.

Yeah, I mean that was I think that was such a like that the politics around. That moment was just so big where you had, like, Mitch did not want that to pass. You know, the the, the build that did pass in the house Mitchell's like, no, we're not going to pass two thousand dollars. That's ridiculous.

And, you know, so then Trump was like, $2,000, it needs to be $2,000. So, suddenly, that shifted the conversation and the Democrats are like Trump says, two thousand dollars. Let's do this, you know? And so that became this huge part of the conversation and sure, enough like you said in Georgia, they're pushing for this and saying, you know, vote for us. And we're going to be able to actually do this because Mitch is going to lose power. We're going to gain power. This is the the difference in Senate power and we can get that

Dollars to you and you can see like, the polling, we're like that really move the needle where they started saying vote for us. And we'll get you the $2,000 and then boom, that pushes it up enough that I think that they were able to pull off the victory. And so yeah, it's incredible. That that not only, you know, you were down there to be a part of that and the basic income conversation the cash was part of it. And so then we got that third check afterwards this

$14, $14 check and now that that's such a big deal that they're just three checks now and you know the question Still Remains is there going to be a fourth check and you know, possibly not probably not but the possibility is out there depending on what happens depending on what happens with the economy in a way that it just wasn't part of the conversation before. And then sure enough these monthly checks now for parents is effectively like base camp for kids and that too is going to stimulate the economy. That's going to function as a monthly statement.

Ever so many people and so many people are going to get used to feeling the security from this monthly check, that's entirely independent of work. And feel that that you know you can't take that away. That's going to be an extremely popular program and I think it'll get people thinking. Well, why don't we do more of this? Why don't we make sure that adults without kids get this to let's just make sure everyone has this Economic Security.

The child poverty tax credit is enormously impactful and anything we can do to help make it.

Permanent we should do. One of the interesting things is that Republicans are for it because it felt pro-family and I agree with that. No, I mean it's mean heck, anything against catch? An American families hands. I'm all for, it's been incredibly invigorating to see Humanity forward develop into this non-partisan / bipartisan lobbying shop where it's become.

A real player and the team is very talented and they've hired experienced lobbyists. It reminds me of this onion article that really helped shape something for me forever, which was like the American people hire their own lobbyists to fight for their interests on Capitol Hill. It was like this way the American people will have. So I feel like Humanity forward has become the people's lobbyists that way and Universal basic income is something that there was no natural interest.

Group for except for the people it's like to is universal. Basic income would help. It's like well all of us it's like well, who cares about that, you know? So so that this people's Lobby on Capitol Hill, is so fascinating to me and the fact that that's now a permanent fixture. I mean, you know, it's getting support from different players and diverse support and

Only one, I want to support that this Mission, you can go to humanity forward.com and, you know, make individual contributions to. But I have to say talking to the team at Humanity forward after I got off the mayoral because I and talk to them in a little while was so uplifting, you know, it makes me feel like we're set to do an enormous amount of good for years and years to

Yeah, absolutely. There was a, you know, again one of the, the, the best things to come out of your campaign and to be able to launch like, right during the pandemic to get cash to people. I mean, I know that that made a huge difference in people's lives to just getting those like the micro grants out to people. And it was just, you know, immediate and it was before the government was even getting checks out, too.

Now, we distributed 12 million dollars or so directly to people in very

Using amounts. And you know, this is a deep question for

for us all is that if you had a choice between taking 12 million dollars and giving it to struggling Americans, which we did do and taking four million dollars in, spending it on lobbyists to try and get for ads or you know mailers or whatever the heck to try and get a hundred billion dollars from the government for Americans like which do you choose and

So what we did in real life was we said twelve million dollars directly to people and then, you know, maybe three or four million on lobbying, you know, is that the Right Mix. But but that's a real thinker for the people at home. And when I tried to figure out the return on investment for the 600 dollar checks, it was something like, you know, over a million percent and

And one of the business truisms is that lobbying is a very high efficiency activity or high impact activity where like for every lobbying dollar you get like 12 dollars in economic returns. It's crazy.

Yeah. If you're a multimillion-dollar like, you know, giant corporation like, why would you not spend at least some percentage of your money doing that if it can mean, you know, a huge return on that investment? So yeah, that's just how it works. So yeah, we need to have a people's lobbyist. We need to have this.

Is making sure that, you know, instead of relying on Charities, to get money, to people that the government actually does its job and gets money to people, and that we should even be having to go through this process in the first place. Like, you know, we should have had a basic income in place before this pandemic even hit. We should have had, you know, automatic stabilizers in place that automatically started getting, you know, kicking out unemployment boosts to people and, you know, monthly swimming as checks to people above their basic income like, you know, we should automate more

Or of those to make sure the government actually gets money to people when the people need it. And it's a matter of setting that up.

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So if someone watching this at home wants to help make the case for cash relief because I know there's so many people that want to see this happen and they're different things you can do. You can the traditional things like write your member of Congress know, they can certainly support Humanity forward. But like do when someone asks you this question like where do you send them?

Yeah. I mean it there's some there's certainly more options now and I guess one of the questions I ask is like, you know, what is it that you want to do and not only like what's available but even like what skill sets do you have that you could even create something new, like what would be even like an enjoyable thing like a fun thing for you to do. You know, maybe you'd like to write something. Maybe you'd like to you know as for like a submit it to your local paper or

They would like to write to your members of Congress or maybe you'd like to start up a podcast or maybe already have a podcast and like, let's do like a topic about basic income or something along those lines. Like, there's various things that people can do and certainly, you know, getting money to as funding for Humanity forward is, you know, a great way to go about that now but, you know also I really like

Wisconsin's.com, don't feel restricted

Scouts Anna's.com. But also, you know, income movement, which is that income.

A movement.com is doing a lot of great stuff, Grassroots organizing people can, you know, be involved there. That's that's great. And also, we've got the, you know, the basic income March is coming up here in September, and that's really exciting to see happen again. Hopefully, they're again, be even more people this time in the previous times, and that could show even more movement. So people can hey, if you've, if

If there's already something scheduled and a march on your place, then in your area then, you know, please attend it and if there isn't, then please be that person that you know, sets it up and helps organize that. So there's there's definitely things that that people can do that didn't really exist years ago.

So you've seen basic income grow from this marginal thing knowing that heard of back in 20,

14. Let's call it and 1516 and now and 2021 it feels to a lot of people like we're this close. I mean it feels like that to me, you know, we're sending out checks to tens of millions of people. It's like why would just keep on doing it, you know. Oh it has grown. Majority of Americans are for it. I can't tell you just walking around really anywhere people, recognize me and are excited to see me and the rest of it. And one of the things they'll always say to me is they'll say look.

Ubi. It'll be like, don't be like that. And it happens to me frequently enough, where I guarantee that these people are not hanging out on forums or you know that like they're not, they don't strike me as activists and so it seems like there's a ton of energy and one of my projects now is to try and figure out how to both grow that energy and also translate it into action and policy. So we have Humanity for in a lobbying side. We have people who can do things like participate in the basic income.

March and and organize locally. And so now my efforts are going to go towards trying to make it so that our governments actually more responsive to the will of the people because that connection has unfortunately been breaking down for quite some time.

There's so much that can happen at the at the local level that that I don't think enough people like appreciate where, you know, if it may sound like you can't you know get your member of Congress or something to do anything.

But there's certainly things, like, even another thing that happened in this, this the pandemic was the mayor's for guaranteed income launched and then suddenly that open the Avenue for people to contact their mayor's and encourage them to join this and launched a bunch

of other thing you can do, right? And it is the March, you can yell at your mayor behind. Hey, why aren't you part of Mayors were guaranteed income?

And the way that works is, you know, you get mayor's on board and then suddenly that lends, this idea more Credence. And then also you've got Lake City, council's that are that are looking at this.

You've got like, also yesterday was a big day too because California passed the first bill for a publicly-funded like ongoing guaranteed income program which is for foster Youth and that to came from a pilot that started in Santa Clara County that came from the, I'm aboard for the fund, for Humanity, the job board funded for Humanity and that was a pilot that was started. There was just a little pilot for a small group of

Youth aging out of the Foster Youth System and that did so well. And also it happened during the pandemic. California little looks at this Rising popularity that again came out of stocked in and they say, well, let's do this Statewide and like a permanent thing to make sure that that those aging out of the Foster Youth System have a basic income for three years and now that's a real thing. Like that is a thing now as of yesterday. So again it's amazing to watch these how it's something can be you know, small grow over time.

I'm One Pilot may seem like a small thing, but it can grow into much bigger things, and I think that over time, we're going to see this stuff, get bigger and bigger and all of that lends more momentum to the whole thing to get more people on board, more organizations on board. And then once you get those kind of organizations, then they're putting pressure on the members of Congress that would usually not listen to people. And now, they feel, they have to because the ones who hold influence over them are saying, look, you need to do this and that's really how stuff gets done.