Couple weeks ago. You tweeted something out where that yeah I'm bring it up okay? Got a crazy amount of attention which
did it boards Illustrated. Swimsuit Edition. I believe you're referring
to. Yes hmm I tweeted out
sorry.
Not beautiful.
Hello and welcome to episode 150 of my podcast. I'm Michaela Peterson. Like I said, this is my 150th episode and I had the pleasure of having my dad on to discuss all sorts of fun things. The first time in over a year, he's been on my podcast, we discussed the Twitter drama over his comments on the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit cover connections between personality types and gender and
Romantic relationships, we covered a lot that would make some people angry. I really hope you enjoy this episode. I certainly did. Thank you to all who supported me on the way to recording 150 of these. It's just insane. Wouldn't have been possible without you guys. This episode was brought to you by rabbit. Are I am relocating from Nashville? I'm moving to Miami. I'm doing it. The tree allergies are 2 awful here. I tried moving from Franklin to Nashville. That didn't help enough. So I just have to escape
Tennessee. It might sound like I'm being crazy but I'm not the tree allergies. Here are insane and Scarlett has them too and she's not sleeping. Well, so that brings me to Rabbit air. I think I would have just died here. If I didn't have my rabbit air filter, if you have trouble getting quality sleep or even if you sleep fine, it's worth getting an air filter to see if it improves your life. Particularly if you have environmental allergies or pets or live in an old house, I have one of these in the office as you can see.
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Turns plus a 90 day money back guarantee on all their products. That's our a b bi t AR.com for some of the best air purifiers you'll find no matter where you look. Thank you so much for watching. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Welcome to my podcast. Add hi Nick. I haven't done a podcast with you in a very long time.
How long do you
know?
Year. Yeah, I over a year over a year, still in Toronto. Yeah, in my podcast studio. Now I just have a studio in a different Hotel all the time. Right. Yeah. Hopefully one day that will be more organized. I'm nearing my Hundred fiftieth episode. Oh,
are we going to do this for your 150th
episode? I guess we have to now, I
guess you put your foot in it
there before we get started. How have you been
Much better. Yeah,
yeah. I'm doing better than I have been for.
Five years, probably five years. That's good. At least
I think the last time we did a podcast, we was yeah. It was pretty rough. It was pretty rough, but we're out of it seemed to be out of it. We'll see it looking pretty sharp the moment. Good, thank you. Yeah. I don't think I've seen this suit before. Not on your podcast. Never on my podcast. Looks good. Definitely being a tour
suit. Yeah. Very. Non wrinkly. So it's a good travel
suit. You can stuff it anywhere and work.
That's this is exactly it stuffable.
Yes, I was on the beach with it this morning for a photo shoot for The observed things with it. Hiked up to my knees in the water. My 3-piece suit.
That's my mes. That's hilarious. Yeah. Jewel model. Okay. You say that. But we went to we were at a black-tie event I think. And I was just standing there. You're like no. You got to put your foot forward. So don't act like you don't know how to pose because you are very good at posing. Oh
thank you. Yeah. My whole life is the pose or so my enemies
say.
What's he doing? What's his game? What role is he playing? Like saying what? I think
that's a roll. Yeah, it's like that's what you think saying? What you thinking? Hmm modeling three-piece suits in the
ocean? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That was the destiny. I always presumed would would make itself
manifest, that's great. Okay. So I thought what people might find useful for this episode
Going to ask you for advice on a number of topics. I think people will find helpful. Yeah and maybe delve a little bit into gender differences just to keep things spicy keeps people out there angry.
Yeah. Because I don't think I've irritated like a million people for at least a week.
Exactly. So it's definitely time to say
something you know outrageous or /. True
outrageous. / true? Yeah. How did you feel us start with this actually?
A couple weeks ago. You tweeted something out where that yeah I'm bring it up okay? Got a crazy amount of attention which
did it boards Illustrated. Swimsuit Edition. I believe you're referring
to. Yes hmm I tweeted out
sorry.
Not beautiful. Yeah, people were very
happy with that and then everyone got
upset. Yes, they did. And then I left Twitter again more or less right after that. And everyone assumed that that was why and it actually it wasn't now, it was, it was I suppose in some sense it was because what happened was an indication of the problem with Twitter, but I had been not reading Twitter comments for about three weeks. Although, I had been
Through an intermediary, one of my staff members. So I've email him a tweet but not reading comments because I found that quite extensive.
Yeah, you're associating with the devil sure. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Was like,
sort of like standing in a public park where anybody, no matter who they were, could come up and yell at you to any size audience about anything they wanted day or night. And so, I've been thinking that through, I'm going to write an article about what's
wrong with Twitter and social media in general. But no, I looked at this Sports Illustrated cover and they had a rather overweight, young woman quite symmetrical. So nice, facial features and so forth with a very revealing swimsuit on the cover and I thought, no light and not not in a personal way, but
It's unbelievably manipulative for about three different reasons. The first is, it's a very tawdry attempt to capitalize on cheap sales that's and I mean cheap in a specific way. Sports Illustrated hit the gold mine with their swimsuit cover. I suppose, 20 years ago, whenever they established that because it was an obviously, it's a Sports magazine. So it's about Athletics, it's about athletic people. It's about that athletic bodies and they had a swimsuit issue. And it really
Was a big hit and then it became kind of a cultural icon and it's a very specific kind of cultural icon because it focuses on a very exceptional, kind of high-end Beauty. And so that beauty would involve Symmetry and signals of Youth because that's part of beauty, sexual Beauty, physical Beauty, waist-to-hip ratio for women, but with Sports Illustrated, it's also highlighting a kind of athleticism in body type.
Right? And that's a very specific form of beauty. You have to be young, you have to be female. Generally, you have to be extremely athletic. You have to be shapely in a very particular way and that would be with the waist to hip ratio of .68 because that's what's been established cross-culturally as ideal from the perspective of male sexual interest. Let's say but that's also associated with fertility. Yeah and so it's a marker that has a biological basis and so even if you're a very
Beautiful woman. You're, you're hard-pressed to be beautiful enough to be on the cover of Sports Illustrated for the swimsuit issue. And so it's a very it's a pinnacle achievement of sorts and it's focused on a very idealized and specific form of beauty and that's obviously exclusionary. It's obviously exclusionary it excludes everyone, right? And, and it does that to highlight a kind of Ideal and that's a particular idea.
E, love beauty. And there are some cultural boundaries around that. So you could say, well, it's a westernized form of beauty. It's like yeah. And you can point to Ruben's, paintings of more plump women and say. Well, there's an exception is like great. You think you're a genius for finding that exception good for you? You know, the Rubens painting like more power to you but that doesn't mean anything at all about the universality of images of beauty. And so the cult the cover, very bothered me a lot because it was a cheap manipulation of some
Thing that had been working very well for Sports Illustrated. It was also an insistence that all of a sudden, this non-athletic body type is as beautiful as the standard swimsuit model for Sports Illustrated and it's not it's not as if LeDuc and it's not as healthy and that's that and it's also not arbitrary. And so the whole thing is a lie and then it's a lie. That's a manipulation of that young woman.
Now she partakes in not because she participates in it but it's still there. Not on her side. They're exploiting her. As far as I'm concerned and she may be participating in that exploitation, but they're still exploiting her. So don't pull any moral stance on me because you're irritated about my opinion about the Sports Illustrated cover. When it's bloody cleared, anybody with eyes that that was manipulative in 20 different ways. And so, and I'm also not willing to sacrifice these ideals.
For inclusiveness, it's like know, not everyone's a genius know. Not everyone's Picasso know, not everyone's young and healthy and know. Not everyone is a Sports Illustrated, swimsuit model period and fuck you, if you don't like it. So that's basically what I thought about that. I certainly didn't think it would cause as much trouble as it did. You know, when people wrong my case for being mean it's like, yeah, I know, I'm always mean because, you know,
Oh,
that's well. Also like life is hard and like life is mean right? And it's hard for people first. First of all, I have great sympathy for anybody overweight, because of the health struggles, they went through and you lost a whole bunch of weight. It's not like being overweight, it's fun, right? No, that's a whole other problem to get into with, and I think people have such an issue losing weight. Yeah, that Society has said, you know what, it's fine because you've had so much trouble. It's that is probably your genetics. So,
Nice truth in that. When I look at someone who's obese on the street I think, oh, that's too bad. Like that's about, I don't think you know, obese pig eats too much has no self-control. I don't think that, I think bad mismatch between genetic proclivity and appalling diet. And the appalling diet is basically, we're not going to get into this but basically carbohydrate heavy in Sugar, loaded and fair enough, you know, we try too hard the whole world to make Cal cheap.
And we did that we did that no one starving and great but now we have an obesity problem and it's a major problem and I'm not going to pretend that. It's okay. It's not okay, that doesn't mean I don't have sympathy for it and I'm not willing to sacrifice any ideals for this idiot. Inclusiveness. I'm done with that and so should everyone else be and most, I think most people are, and they look at that cover and they know it's manipulative and
And Ally in a deep sense. But then, if you point that out, and this is where we're at in the culture, there's all sorts of things. Now if you point to and you say, you know, that's a lie, people get upset. It's like an old that's a lie. You're just that's not lie. You're just being mean
words. A nice 1984? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a
lot. Yeah, it's like here's another lie. Every ten year old knows what gender they are. And that's so fixed that surgical intervention May well be necessary and it's illegal.
For you to suggest otherwise. However, your gender identity is so fluid that you can change it every hour, if you want, and it's not fixed at all, and it's, and it's infinitely variable at your whim, okay? I'm supposed to accept all of that. A my every single bit of that set of propositions even though they're entirely internally contradictory, which means it's actually impossible for me to accept all of those propositions and
And to stay sane? Well yeah, but if you don't you're mean it's like you're a predator. Well that brings something else. I want to talk to you about. I've been thinking about this a fair bit. I talked to friends to wall primatologist, genius primatologist in my estimation, and I don't know if there's a Nobel Prize that would be specifically appropriate for friends to wall, but he if there was a Nobel prize for the sort of science he's doing, he would deserve it because he's discovered things that are really. They're unbelievably fundamental for example he's discovered
That sometimes, in chimp troops, the smallest male is the alpha. Really? Yeah. That it's not dependent on power as small smaller chimp can be Alpha for example if he has the support of one of the older females who has strong connections within the troop, but also is a sophisticated social actor and I don't mean manipulator. And I don't mean Dominator because the wall has established very very
Clearly. And this is signaling important work that status and Authority in a chimp troop. And that is associated with reproductive success, is much more dependent on the ability to reconcile and the ability to maintain reciprocal positive relationships with multiple individuals far more dependent on that than on the expression of physical power. So, this is crucially important and do all just wrote a new book. I think it's called Differences where
Outlined sex differences in toy preference, behavioral preference differences between male and female chimps, especially juveniles. So the females for example, if you give a female chimp a block of wood, you know what reason of the appropriate size, she will carry it around like infant. So she makes a block of wood into a doll. If you give her a doll, a teddy bear, or something like that, that's definitely instantly an infant. And she will take care of it and she'll share it with the other chimps.
Is that she trusts and she'll get hyper upset. If they do anything to it that you wouldn't do to an infant. Whereas if you give a doll to a male juvenile or a group of males, he how you make a face, they tear it apart. See what's inside of it. Yeah. And that's and that's funny because that's that you know that that's kind of The Stereotype for what a young boy might.
Yeah, let's take it apart and see what's inside of it. Yeah. Well there's
a hunting devouring element of that but there's also a
gadget like curiosity
and there's good work on
Chimps, showing that oddly enough, the male juveniles, if you give them cars or like toy cars or dolls, they'll take the cars, which is pretty damn weird because it's not like chimps have cars they have infants but
they don't have the cars. I guess they roll well more fun. Well, it probably
has something to do with tool use preference is that they're more Gadget oriented, even chips because they do use tools to some degree or maybe it's just that they're not
maternal. Yeah. Right. So it's just the other
it's yeah, it might be that and I don't
think the work aren't on that preference is developed enough to be sure but we do know that
Likewise in human beings. The biggest difference that we know of between men and women is their interest in people versus things and so but I was really struck by the carrying around of the would block the infantilization of the wood block. And it made me think because I had been reading putting two weird ideas together. I'd been reading this guide to a faculty Retreat that Mount Royal University in Calgary had published and I'd read. And it was just, it was such an
Hauling document. So there's very few things in life that are less dangerous than going to a faculty retreat at a college. Like the The Faculty don't bring axes and pitchforks and they're not Vikings and they're not cannibals and they don't devour each other. In the probability of getting in a fist fight is like zero or lower and they're just not dangerous in any there. No. There. As safe as any social event could possibly be made with like 250,000 years of civilized effort.
And yet the guide that the college published indicated, quite clearly that trained counselors would be on hand just in case,
just in case, the
discussion got too intense. And I thought this is written by eatable mothers for kindergartners and I was thinking about that in relation to do all the walls work and and into the broader culture war that were knee-deep in neck, deep in forehead, deep in maybe. So here's a hypothesis.
Imagine that there's a default a ethos that governs.
What constitutes the basis for an appropriate social relationship, whether it's an intimate relationship, a friendship, a relationship with your family members or relationship with people in the broader Community. Imagine that there's an ethos of way of interacting that would characterize optimality across all those domains simultaneously.
One female default is you're either an infant.
Or you're a caregiver.
Or you're a predator.
And I think a lot of that's playing out in the world now,
but what Crypt where does that come from?
Well, I think comes from the fundamental ethos that governs mother-infant bonding. I mean, look,
One of the one of the issues that women and female chimps for that matter. Struggle with terribly is the lengthy period of dependency that highly intelligent primate. Infants are characterized by and so female chimp will carry her infant 500 miles in the first three years, she has to carry the infant. They can claim to but she has to carry the infant everywhere. It's an
Lievable burden, it's an unbelievable burden and so and it's partly because it's worse, even in human and humans because human infants are born even less able than chimpanzee infants and there's a reason for that. Sakai noodle. Yeah
well you're like a
fetus they're actually they're actually fetal in in a very real sense. So the human cortex is so large that there's an arms race between
The size of the infant's head and the width of the pelvic opening through which birth must take place. And it's a, it's a very difficult balance. To optimize if women's hips were any wider, which would make the pelvic whole larger, they couldn't run. Well. So it interfere with the running, which obviously isn't so good if you're running away from a predator. If it was smaller than the baby would have to be born with a smaller rain or more immature, the
The gestation period for a mammal of our size should be if you compared us to other animals be two years. Yeah. So our infants are born a year and three months premature and so they're just absolutely 100% helpless. And so then there's an ethos that has to govern your interaction with the infant. Let's say up till about 9 months when they start to become somewhat ambulatory. So, pre ambulatory infant is a different creature than an infant who
The capacity to move around in the world, by the way, the fear circuitry in an infant doesn't really kick in until they're ambulatory. So they're quite different from a motivational perspective to before there before they can move. Well, why be afraid of can't move, Fierce freezes. You can't move. You don't need fear cuz he can't move. So okay, yeah, so that's what that. Yeah, that's also when they first show the signs of stranger version and some beginning fear of the dark,
although they do freak out if they're little and you put
At them in somebody else's
arms. Yeah. But but it doesn't look like it's fear often. That's pain. A pain like response or anger. It's
commonly anger does look like anger. Well, it's if they turn red and
it's like when you watch someone who cries in an argument is like I'm a hurts like, no, you're red, you're mad, you're using, you just say you're hurt because that's a guilt weapon. That angry people use.
It doesn't happen all the time. No, it does. I think that women also get blamed for that sometimes when it doesn't happen, like, especially by men,
They don't understand it. Which is, why are you crying? And are you trying to manipulate me? Yeah, and what I learned about was woman's tears, actually, the smell of women's tears. Give off a pain response in men who know that. No, yeah, there's a chemical in women's tears that give off a pain because that's just how manipulative his not. It's very sometimes I think show you here's some pain I think sometimes when I saw I know this I don't cry very easily but if I'm stressed, all right.
Eddie and then I get into an argument.
Sometimes it'll happen. I have to be pretty stressed and I know some people who will cry a lot easier. It'll just crying like me,
a lot of that had to do with
Pia Mia. Yeah, a lot of that did have to do and I cry easier when I'm Ill to, so that's understandable but I think women get blamed a lot of time. I don't think it's always manipulative. No idea, that's true. I
don't think it's always manipulative either. Not like
it might be an evolutionary response to to when things get to a certain point.
And you're getting some danger Vibes as a woman danger Vibes as well. I'm going to call you danger Vibes that you're more likely to. Yeah, we'll try so it's like don't hurt me. Kind of thing.
Yes, it's an appeal to that's right. It's an appeal to the latent, maternal Instinct within whoever you might be interacting with, but also that crying is also, it's a signal that something situation has gone beyond your control. Yeah. Well, that's what children do they cry. Well, why? Because the cry attracts
attention and
child's cry. We had a cat at one point.
Point when I was a college student and my roommate used to bring his little niece over now and then, and if she cried the cat, who was a female cat, would immediately come running over and investigating so that that cry is a mammalian constant, and it means something. Well, it means something like
there may be a predator in the environments like an alarm especially when they're really little. Yeah, definitely, yeah,
definitely. So okay, so back to the female ethos well.
I think that women, I think women's temperaments are optimized.
At least in part for the mother dependent infant dyad. And the reason I think that is because boys and girls don't seem to be different in trait neuroticism, and their little boys and girls right before puberty the difference kicks in at puberty and so and so then women are more sensitive to negative emotion and they stay that way permanently and it's quite a difference. Half a standard deviation, which is quite a large difference. It's it's enough so that if you drew two,
People from the population, one man, man, and one woman. And you had to guess who experienced more negative emotion on average. If you guessed the woman, you'd be right, 60 percent of the time. So it's not a huge difference, but it's not nothing and it does kick in at puberty. And so, then the question would be why puberty and some answers are well, males and females become dimorphic at at puberty the boys, get bigger and stronger, especially in terms of upper body strength so they can start to win physical combats.
Physical combat. Not wish 22 though well. But but generally it doesn't take much of a size advantage to Prevail in a physical fight. And so, so that means physical fighting starts to become more dangerous for women when they hit puberty. Especially in relationship to men. But then they also become sexually vulnerable which is a huge risk. And so why wouldn't you be more threat sensitive? Because of that? And then also, well, who says it's about you, why isn't it about you and
Infant.
And so your imagine your nervous system is tuned for the average level of danger, you face, if you have a dependent infant and that kind of sucks for you because you're more nervous and sensitive to pain and grief, and all of that, and frustration then would be optimal for you as an adult. But, you know, it's not all about you
that changed for me too. And I had Scarlet. I mean, I was also quite ill at the time, so that's but there were all the hormones.
Involved. I think I was pretty stressed and taller, and especially in regards to Scarlett, until she started to be less needy, right? Right. For the first year, it was any sound. She may. Well, that's it like a listed in a pain response to me was horrible. She feel like you're like, oh yeah, you just have. Your mom
was like that when you were an infant we had built a I built a bunk bed out of wood in this small room. I had in Montreal we had and we built a crib for you.
All right, under the bed. And so the room was only about I don't know eight by ten, it was a very small room, so we built this bunk bed. We only had about three feet between the top of it in the ceiling and then we built a crib for you underneath in a change. Table was quite nice and it was very solid earthquake. Wouldn't have taken it down. Was all built out of two by fours and we built a wall. It was in what was the dining room? We built a half wall and then built this underneath
and I think was that apartment.
They called it afford a half in in Montreal and it had a, okay? So a living
bedrooms,
Really one bedroom it, it was a small two-bedroom, is maybe if you pushed it, that's what it would be. It had a tiny living room, maybe ten by ten, another room adjoining the living room, that was maybe 10 by 10. Then this dining room that was maybe eight by ten and then a kitchen that was somewhat bigger L-shaped and that was the apartment and it was a long kind of train car like apartment in a poor area in Montreal and
Ways, that's where you were. You were, that's where we lived when you were born, and I'd be sleeping up on top and you would just go. You just make us tiny Peep and Tammy, would be up instantly down the ladder instantly. And then she would feed you a rock you to sleep. And she was unbelievably good at that, unbelievably responsive. And as a consequence of her, instantaneous responses you almost never got upset enough that night when you woke up to actually wake up. And so she was
Really responsive to to those tiny signs of distress and so okay. So and to flesh this out. So imagine that that's that's a pretty Cardinal set of wiring. Yeah, because everyone survival depends on it because P infants are so dependent in the first six months. And so, then you think, well, what is the world look like if the safety of a dependent infant? Is your primary concern? And the answer that is while your nervous system is attuned to.
As that relationship because survival itself depends on it. And so, then well, is everything an infant? So, I think the world is divided for women, whose maternal instinct is hyper dominant. The world is divided into three categories.
Infants caretakers of infants and predators. And that's it and God help you if you're a predator, because there is, if you are a mother of an infant, there is nothing about a predator that doesn't deserve to be destroyed and you forget about presumption of innocence because the the, the hypothesis going to be prove to me, you're not a predator.
And, you know, fair enough but it isn't obvious at all. That that ethos scales. It's not a good rule of thumb. It's not a good heuristic for picking a husband. Although no Predators fair enough, you know, but it's not a good heuristic for picking a husband. It is not a good heuristic for establishing social communities because everyone isn't an infant. Everyone isn't a caregiver and those that are neither of those
Aren't all predators. And so when I looked at this Mount Royal College thing and I was talking to the wall, I thought oh well we can just see. This is like all these faculty members are infants except for those of them who are predators and they all need to be nurtured. It's like, well, that's Freud. That's Freud's. Eatable mother. That's the devouring mother. It's like you infants should be treated like infants.
But people who aren't infants are not infants and that doesn't mean they're predators and they shouldn't all be treated. Like they're infants, it's not helpful, and it is. And the thing about it that bothers me in particular, I would say or the danger in it in particular, is that there is an intense moralizing that goes with it because while there's nothing more important than taking care of an infant fair enough, there is no job more admirable than being a caretaker.
Infant. Well, that's a bit trickier claim because there's lots of ways of taking care of people and even if you're taking care of an infant, well, that requires the provision of food. For example, the provision of shelter and all sorts of other activities that aren't so hyper-focused on the Infant, but that are equally necessary, especially in complex, social environments. And then, well, everyone, who isn't one of those two things is a
Editor. That's a just blood, that's just a bloody disaster. And so how
do we know that this isn't? Okay. So this is my experience being being female and I think we've had discussions about this before because I've got I've got a lot of masculine personality traits that just skewed towards and there are 10 other women like me right now Lauren's. But we're talking about the average female here. So I've had a hard time understanding. Some we're actually talking about the feminine temperament. Is that okay? Feminine temperament. That makes sense
even
More than the average female. It's more like, it's like the typical feminine
temperament. Okay, okay, okay. I can come in kind of this man can have.
Yes, this is tilt to their thinking as well. It's less common because the combination of personality traits that would produce that ethos which is likely high in neuroticism and high agreeableness is less common in
men. Okay? So, do you think it's absent? Do you think it's just those really high agreeableness and high neuroticism?
I think low intelligence helps
Soooo when, and I think the lower reasons as well, or no, don't specifically my graduate student, Christine, Brophy, and I studied political correctness, and political correctness, I think is an outgrowth in part of this hyper-feminine ethos. And I think that while we first of all, we tried to find out if there was a set of beliefs that cohered as politically correct, or woke? Yeah, because that's the first question.
Can is this just something that you know right wing conservatives are hypothesizing? It's like well you can test that statistically you can see if you have one belief if you're more likely to have another and then you can see which sets of beliefs are likely to associate with one another, we found clear evidence for the existence of what was obviously identifiable as a politically correct set of beliefs. And what we did was take a very broad set of beliefs and ask people about that and then use statistics to group
Those beliefs, we found a group that I believe anyone in our current culture would regard as politically correct. Then we looked at what predicted it well being female predicted it over and above agreeableness and neuroticism, which was very interesting because we found very few phenomena in our studies that where you couldn't eradicate the sex Difference by controlling for personality, that's weird. Yeah, so agreeableness being female but that
Is predict it was low verbal IQ.
And so you imagine that
same bloke people are
stupid. No I'm saying that people who are less verbally sophisticated are more likely to gravitate towards all-encompassing simple theories because of course they are. So like kind of like, whoa,
people may be well
as bright. Well, I think you might be able to say the same thing about people who hold a very low resolution schematically conservative Viewpoint you know, where they don't deviate from Tradition at all. Yeah. And where they're not
Particularly sophisticated in defending their
beliefs that's not associated with openness. That's awfully
low, we didn't we that's a complicated question because openness is associated with verbal IQ. Yeah. If you have a low verbal IQ, you're likely to be lower and openness but it's it was complicated because generally speaking, openness predicts, liberal Viewpoint. Yeah. Political correctness is is not exactly. It's not exactly merely an extension of liberal belief but the core
Relation between politically correct, belief and verbal IQ was - .45 which is a walloping correlation. It's was one of the biggest correlations we ever saw in any study. It's, it's higher than the correlation between IQ and grades, which is really something because those measures are kind of the same thing. Yeah, it was yeah. So, wow. So, and you know, there is evidence in the University, setting to that the most politically correct disciplines are those who are
Simultaneously most dominated by females and that have the least bright students
are those. Also the ones that don't actually lead to jobs? They just well they lead to jobs now. Oh yeah. They've created this entire ecosystem. So that your Humanities degree
matters. Yeah. Well your your your women's studies degree. Let's say
or yeah, sorry, yeah. Well, I've been on the humanities together. No.
You don't want to do that. You don't want to do that. But and so, you know, this is part of a broader discussion.
in that we can't have in our culture, which is
What's the evidence that the feminine ethos scales to regulate families or broader communities? Because we've introduced women into the broad political discussion and we've introduced women to every level of social organization but we have no evidence that women can produce those sorts of organizations. Now maybe they can and maybe it's also a great positive that they are and I think there's lots of evidence for that. I mean, so for example, it's clearly the case that countries
Where women are more educated and when where women are, granted more rights seem to do far better economically. Now whether that's because the women are free which might be the reason or because the cultures that tend to be more open to female participation are also more open to innovative ideas of All Sorts, right? Because it's very difficult to distinguish between those two, we don't know, but we also know that if you educate women, their children are more motivated to pursue higher.
Those of Education which isn't doesn't seem to be the case. So if you try to predict how far a child will go in terms of their education, you can use mother IQ, father IQ child IQ and then you can use mother education and farther education and the IQ measures are relevant and mothers. Education is relevant, but father's, education isn't so and it isn't obvious. Why that is,
maybe women are pushy on behalf of their children, right? We do know, I got an education. You need an education.
Yeah, well maybe dad
it may be that women who are educated are better at acting out the implicit valuation of Education in it. Like at very early ages, maybe they read more to their children, we don't know. But but what so but what I'm saying is that I'm not making a blanket case that the introduction of women into more sophisticated forms of social, no larger-scale forms of social organization was like a non-starter and hopefully it is.
Isn't because half the brain power in the world is in the hands of women. We don't want to just leave that lying on the table, that would be a mistake for everyone. But we also don't we have no evidence whatsoever that the maternal ethos scales and I think I don't think it does. I think that large-scale organizations have to run on on conscientiousness. Yeah, not on agreeableness like and there's evidence for that too.
So it might actually be negatively correlated with agreeableness
Well right. We've looked at what predicts success in complex. Functional organizations and the two biggest predictors are IQ because IQ is General cognitive ability. And that's just how fast. And well, you can solve any problem that requires abstraction and solving. It faster is obviously better if it's an important problem because it's more efficient, the other predictor is conscientiousness. Not agreeableness in fact in the managerial domain there's some evidence
Audience, that agreeableness is negatively correlated with success, and I think that's because agreeable managers get taken advantage of, they can't discipline their employees properly and they get
resentful. They feel bad, right? Like, what happens if you see who is having a really hard time, right? And then it's like, oh well, let them stay in the company and then like, worse
than that. And I think they're prone and I think this is the fundamental problem with agreeableness in some regard, as an ethos, is your completely susceptible to
Manipulation by narcissists and Psychopaths and we know this technically we know this biologically. So imagine that you set up a game, a simulation where everyone is cooperating you could cheat but everyone cooperates. Well you can set up a pretty stable game that's composed of nothing but Co-operators, but if you introduce one cheater, one shark, the cheater takes everything. And so the and this is this is a chronic problem for society's is like, as soon as you set up,
Cooperation, as the norm, the desirable Norm, the iterable norm is sustainable, Norm, the productive Norm, that means those who mimic cooperation. So narcissists Machiavelli ins Psychopaths who pretend to be cooperative and competent can steal. And then you're faced with the problem of, okay? What do you do with the Free Riders and the crooks? And the answer is well you change society so that they're not victims.
Is this
like, you are naive the own belief, you know, it's like the I think it was the mayor of Seattle when antifa established, its, you know, zone of Utopia
downtown. It's like, well, it'll be just like the Summer of
Love, which by the way, ended very badly and that was fine, till the lights went off at night and the criminals came to play. And you think, well, they're just victims
of an oppressive social organization. It's
like that would be a real good thing to tell them.
When they break into your house. And so that sort of naivety which isn't an outgrowth of a kind of immature. Agreeableness is seriously not helpful when it comes to solving complex social problems. Well, and one of I suppose is the regulation of the relationship between men and women because women actually don't like agreeable men that much. Now it's tough for women a because if you have a disagreeable man
He's blunt, he's not very compassionate, he's not very polite. He's competitive and so and that can degenerate into a kind of selfish meanness. And so the best personality predictor of criminal behavior is low agreeableness
so and and low context. Well
business, if you add those two together you get something approximating psychopathy so that someone he doesn't care about you at all. Plus he follows zero rules. So like stay away from that guy.
Guy and it isn't just that he's misunderstood, he's a guy to stay away from and you could add extra version to that, then you'd get a narcissistic psychopath and then maybe you could add emotional stability to that. And then you get a Fearless narcissistic, self-centered psychopath. And then then you have, that's a movie
psychopath, right? Yeah, but if you up the conscientiousness, then you get a CEO. Well well
well yeah well that's that's the okay. So what a woman needs
Is someone who's disagreeable enough to keep the Psychopaths away and the criminals, but agreeable enough to share and be reasonable, and that's an unbelievable. That's a knife edge, right?
Or do they have to be agreeable enough do? Or could they just be conscientious? Well, like, okay, this is fair, like, I can't think there are a lot of, you
know, I've seen disagreeable conscientious men, try to have relationships with
Oil women. Yeah, and it's very difficult for them to bridge the gap because the guy is so masculine and the woman is so feminine that they don't really exist in the same world.
and so it's you want that, you know, you don't, you want a man who
it's tough. It also depends to some degree on the dangerousness of the environment, right? So the more dangerous, the environment. Yeah. Maybe the more disagreeable a man, you need. So it's a really thin needle for women to threat. And that's basically the beauty Beauty and the Beast mythology, right? Because the woman Beauty in that story wants a beast. But why to keep the real beasts at Bay and who are the real Beast guests on? Well, what is he? He's a narcissist.
Yeah, right. He's a narcissistic he'd borders of psychopathy. Very dangerous. Very dangerous. Arrogant egotistical self-centered and he's a he's a parody of masculinity in some sense. And so Beauty wants the Beast because he's a beast and he can keep guests on a bay but he's tamable and her job. And this is, I think part of the central female myth of adaptation like the hero myth is for
When the hero myth is also relevant for women. But it's a it's an admitster for women because they have the Beauty and the Beast thing that has to be done, which I think is primary. But the hero myth, which is go confront that which frightens you and stands in your way and thereby Prevail that sort of like, Mary with her foot on the serpent, right? That's, that's very much like, Saint George and the Dragon. So there's that element of Predator defense, that's definitely part of women's makeup and the desire to explore.
And intellectually and and the desire and to and the ethos of courage and voluntary exposure, that's all relevant. That's partly why Christ? And Christianity, is regarded as a universal. Savior. He's an archetypal hero. So he sort of like, Saint George and the Dragon magnified up into a whole nother dimension of significance, but he's regarded as a figure, that's Redemptive both for men and women, but then you have the figure of Mary it's like, well is Christ's Redemptive or is Mary
And the answer for women is well, for the answer for both sexes is both. But Christ is regarded still as primary for both sexes, which is quite interesting. But the female situation is more complex. And so, it's Beauty and the Beast. You want to find a guy that's tough and brave. And there's problems associated with that. He's going to, he's going to be somewhat uncivilized and wild and then you bring them into a relationship and Taemin, like this is
The Google Engineers who make great social scientists when they're sort of let loose on the data, did a wonderful analysis. In a book called a billion, Wicked thoughts where they looked at female pornographic fantasies. And so, men, look at, look at pornography and women read pornography, and so which is quite interesting.
Yeah, that meant. That is
interesting. Yeah, well, it also ties back to the swimsuit or the Sports Illustrated issue idea. Yeah, manner of men are very visual in their, in their sexual preference extraordinarily. So
but I mean, you'd have to be
Visual, but you'd be getting it through a different medium, right side for a book. It's not like they just read it, they read it and visualize, right? And they do visualizing
different things. Men are visualizing physical features Associated fundamentally with fecundity, and health. Yeah. Youth, fecundity and health and that would be clear skin, plump lips. Reddish, huge skin because that's also youth. Lee, toland lack of wrinkles .68, waist-to-hip ratio clear eyes. There's a variety of other cardinal,
All attributes symmetries and interesting. One, I read that butterflies can detect departures from symmetry of one part in a million in potential mates butterflies while. But you look at a butterfly, anything man.
That's pretty beautiful. It's like yeah. That's sexual selection boys and girls. Pretty good for the butterflies they have that level of aesthetic capabilities and their insect, right? One part in a million symmetry really matters. So on the pornographic front, women was very comical to read this because and I had read a fair number of, harlequin romances. When I was a kid, my mom used to take them camping. So I really like 200 of them because they were always lying around. I just pick one up, read it.
And then I had a client whose sister read the more pornographic versions of harlequin romances because they
have a more spicy. So I read
like 10 of those because I was curious, then I at least that was my excuse and then because I was dreaming about Pirates and surgeons and
vampires. Yes. Anyways,
the Google guys showed quite clearly, the pattern of female pornographic fantasy preference and it was basically Beauty and the Beast, it was like tough surgeon
Pirate vampire billionaire. There was one other category. I can't remember maybe it was corporate and
Cecilia wasn't see no billionaires. Yeah.
Like hyper successful, male
tromping around, ya know, arrogant kind of guy but also someone ideally who will take care of you even when you're feeling sorry for something. You shouldn't feel. Sorry for. Yeah. Well,
the fantasy mounts, they have a couple of interactions. There's a fair bit of rejection, there's some underlying sexual tension, he realizes how beautiful.
Is she kind of entices him into establishing a relationship with him and tames her and then, you know, there's some fiery sex that goes along with that. And, yeah, and then, so she's got herself, she's got herself, her own monster, and then he serves her purpose is in some sense defense and then generosity and, and competence and production. And so and that's all unbelievably deeply embedded and it's rude to talk about it. But like how about Fifty Shades of Grey folks? You know, that was, I think,
You read that I read some of it. I
didn't think much of it because once I was painful, yeah, well and everybody read it. Yeah. Like I had like see everyone. I knew read it secretly. Yeah or not. So
secretly. Yeah. Well it was a funny thing to see happen because it was happening if I remember correctly, right? At the same time as the me to movement. It's like and that's very that makes perfect sense psychologically because if you get a reaction that's too far in One Direction, then it calls for a fantasy in the other direction. It's like, well, sex only
Take place between people of equal power, whatever the hell that means? Well, that's, that's that
sounds hard to find sexual experience.
Well, that's part of the reason why, you know, relationships between say undergraduates and graduate students or undergraduates and professors in universities are hypothetically verboten, which I think by the way, is a mistake, because are you an adult or not? Now, that doesn't mean, it can't be manipulated, and it doesn't mean that there are reasons to step forward with propriety and I'm not a fan of problem.
Ask you to your one-night, stands are any casual sexual relationships for that matter, but it isn't obvious to me at all. Who has the upper hand in those sorts of relationships because feminine Youth, and beauty and charm, especially allied with
Personality. And intelligence is a vicious and deadly combination. There's not, no, that's not nothing by any stretch of the imagination. It might be the highest status.
what would you say set of manifestations that there is because I would say, generally speaking, cultures, value young women,
Like ideal young women more than they value. Anyone else? They certainly value the more than they value. Well, certainly the typical young men but maybe even the a typical young men.
What exactly is the problem with casual relationships and how are you supposed to find the person you need to be with without having
them?
well, I think how about abortion
That's a problem.
And so,
It's a Minefield, obviously any discussion of abortion, but one thing I can say about abortion that I think, would generate no objection is you wouldn't give one to your sister for a present, right? So whatever it is, it's not desirable and how not desirable it is, is at minimum open to question. So I don't think there's any such thing as a casual
Relationship. I don't believe that I've never seen any evidence that that's the case. I think that there are
people rationalize that constantly because they want to believe while they want to believe that short-term hedonistic gratification is ethically acceptable, and I don't think it is. I think that it trains you to treat yourself and other people as
instrumental objects of short-term pleasure obviously. Well, is that, is that how you want? Train yourself? How's that going to work in your, you going to have a long-term relationship at some point? How are you going to train yourself for that? Okay, so having said that, and then, you know, I'll carefully. How carefully should we conduct ourselves in sexual matters? I would say, well, as carefully as you conduct yourself in any matter of importance, and that might be,
That stretches all the way up to the top, whatever the top is.
You know you're going to treat the other person as if there are Divine locus of Consciousness or a disposable pornographic entity. Well you know those are the those are the
Borders. Okay, but then you say, well, you have to practice and there's truth in that. And how do you practice? And the answer is, well, that's one of the central complications of life, right to get the balance between individual action and the whole domain of sexuality and reproduction. Right is perhaps there's no more difficult question. Especially
Couldn't you sold the question of? Do you have enough to eat tomorrow? That would be the next one that pops up, but I don't think there's cat. I don't think there is such a thing as casual sex. I think that's indistinguishable from masturbation, which I also don't regard as a particularly heroic act and so well,
t-shirts masturbation, not a particular, right? Right. Like
right. And and I think people have that sense and I don't think that that's culturally instantiated, because in some sense, we
We've done everything. We can to eradicate every Last Vestige of sexual shame which I think in the final analysis is impossible because there are all sorts of reasons for the Persistence of sexual shame that have nothing to do with cultural context and still, you know, it's a furtive and underground activity. And the reason for that is because it's suboptimal for all sorts of reasons. Well, how much motivation does a young man need
To overcome his fear of rejection, and establish a relationship with a woman. And the answer to that is, we don't know, but sexual depravation could easily easily be part of it. Because to do something difficult, you need a lot of motivation, you need frustration working for you. You need fear working for you. You need lust working for you. You need loneliness working for you to bind a man and woman together especially if they're going to produce children. This is very very
Difficult thing to do successfully and so anything that interferes with that is to be viewed with extreme skepticism. And that's undoubtedly part of the reason that shame around hedonistic sexual activities remains a constant, despite our best attempt to eradicate
it. I think I would also say just from my experience growing up especially in University.
It's not like it's seen on the outside. Having casual sexual relationships as this fun thing. It's not fun. No, and nobody thinks it's fun especially women. So if you're around other girls and they're like oh yeah I hooked up with this guy. None of you guys are actually enjoying that. Yeah right and I think that's a lie that women tell each other, why?
I think, because they think other people don't care and because if you do it, it makes you feel bad enough that you're like, well, I don't want to look at that. Whatever is going on there. Like, maybe me feeling bad is not healthy, right? I'm not. And is it something bad if you? Yeah, or there's something wrong with you, right? And so it's like, and it's unpleasant enough that you're like, well, I'll just, you know, keep going, it's already happened. There's nothing I can do about it, so it might as well be okay. Because what am I going to do about? What am I going to do about it? If it's not. Okay, yeah. So and then
You know, and I think this is pretty common for women and University to hook up with people. Right? Is called hookup culture. There's Tinder like it happens, but I like for anybody out there who's, who's thinking? Maybe I don't want to do that. It's not fun. It doesn't make you feel good. It's really makes you really lonely, right? It's not a good idea to makes you lonely. I think because what you're looking for, what you're looking for is connection with somebody and you're what a game is, what is called connection and you're not getting any emotional connection.
Ian and it's right. And then there's a contradiction next to both terrible
contradiction. Yeah. And it's well, here's here's an interesting thing. I used to tell my clients is don't do anything with anyone sexually that you wouldn't talk to them about.
I wouldn't talk to anybody about that. It's like,
why are you lying it out? And yeah. So
that's worth thinking about is you know what? Intimate enough with them to have a conscious discussion but you're perfectly willing to blunder stupidly into it. And then, and then risk the aftermath a lot of that's fueled by alcohol to.
Yeah, a lot of it is just like all of it. You're not going to do. If we ever
had, I wanted to have a serious conversation about sexual impropriety on campus
For example, the first thing we'd focus on is alcohol but we don't want to have a serious conversation about that because, you know, we don't want to have well we don't want to have chaperoned parties, like there were in the 1950s, you know, it's like well, you know, having some older people around to keep the or the drunken orgy under control actually turns out, not to be such a bad
idea. Especially people who are non biased, right are unbiased. We're just
They're saying, well, this doesn't look like it's going. Well, maybe I'll help this person yeah.well, instead of a group of friends or like, no, do it like yeah, right. Well, which is exactly what doorknobs running into each other. Well, that's
what you get with alcohol to is. Yeah, alcohol is really
Alcohol is a drug that really radically decreases. People's medium to long-term orientation, right? It really focuses you on the present, which makes it if it's a good drug for you. It makes it unbelievably fun, because it decreases anxiety, and it increases likely opiate bonding and dopamine mediated extraversion. And so, like it's cocaine heroin, and a benzodiazepine rolled into one.
So it makes you not care and for, for Pure Hedonism, there's nothing better than not caring. What alcohol is a catastrophe on many fronts because of that and a huge proportion of violent crimes, exploitive, crimes, rapes, a huge portion of those are conducted between drunk people and so, but I don't, I don't believe that. I don't believe that there is moral casual sex.
Because I don't think sex is casual. I don't think anything about it is casual. I don't think well that that's what I think.
Yeah they're okay so kind of on that note given that people just graduated. Do you have advice for recent High School grads?
I think.
it's very
It's hard to overstate the importance when you're at a point of transition like that. So you've you've you're done, being someone that you were a school kid, you're done with that. And so that's an achievement. But it's also the end of something. It's the end of an identity and it's a new beginning. So, now you have a new beginning, you have a new beginning, you don't get that many of those in your life, if you move if you switch jobs, if you make a radical life transformation, you
Have
that sometimes that's accidental its thrust upon you. That's that's different that's harder. Sometimes it's because of opportunity but maybe you get four or five opportunities like that in your life. So they're rare you get to be someone new who who have a vision. So when I started to puzzle this out, it was often because of talking to clients or students who didn't know what to do. What should I do with my life? I don't know what to do with my
life, fair enough. And that's not a very good question. What do I do with my life? It's like, what's the answer to everything? It's not a good question rights to vague, so
I suppose, I answered this to some degree at least initially like a conservative person. I say, well, what other people do
Well, they have an intimate relationship, they have a family, so that could be your birth family. So you can fix that up or it could be, you know, your new family, your kids, your wife, they have friends, they have a social community that might involve civic responsibility, which is something we're direly lacking at the moment. You need a job. You need to take care of yourself, mentally and physically. You need to
Educate yourself, you need to regulate your reaction to Temptation. There's eight things. Okay, so now you get to be whoever you want but you have to want it and you have to aim at it. And so to do that, you have to have Vision part of the utility of literature, is the provision of such Visions -, you know, in the case of anti-heroes positive, in the case of protagonists. Who could you be part of the advantage of being educated in the humanities? Is that you can draw your model?
From the best history has to offer and that's really what an education and Humanity should present you with. It's like here are the great people of history and that's you in potential. And so that means you can establish a new peer group, you know, in some sense, my peer group has always been the people whose books, I most admired, you know, and that's a reach, right? Because who wants, who dares to compare himself herself to the truly great.
Eight people of the past Nietzsche, for me Dostoyevsky young woman, the classic philosophers, like, Plato and Aristotle, and Kant and Hume. All these stunning people that were brilliant Beyond conception, you know, mean that's a high reach and presumptuous in some sense. But the point of the humanities education is in large part to surround yourself with peers of the highest quality. And so you do that in the world of abstraction, which is in the
Is there to guide you through that if they only knew that and then you also want to do that with your peers. So one of the things you want to ask yourself, if you're graduating from high school is, well, now I'm off to do something else. Might be a job. Might be College, might be trade school. It's like,
I'm going to make new friends. What's a friend?
What do I want? I want someone to tell good news to who will celebrate with me.
I want someone to tell bad news, to who will be upset that something bad happened to me and not secretly. Happy. I want someone who's aiming up for me and for them or not, or do you not want that? It's like, what do you want if you're taking care of yourself? What would you want in a relationship? You need a vision for this. And we do an staggeringly appalling job of
Helping young people, even understand that that's necessary. And I know, partly why I was very curious about this because I spent a lot of time with this future authoring program. Self authoring part of the self authoring sweet because we built a program to help people make a plan. And once we built the program, one of the things we found, for example, was that if you gave it to young men who are entering College, the few months before, they went to college, they were 50%, less likely to draw.
In the first year, that's enough. It's crazy for a 90-minute exercises, like, that's just in the world. Had any sense. Every single college would have immediately used that upon publication of our paper, but none of them did. And that says
something, is that mainly just goal-setting like what do you want? Well, Envision, that and I think goal setting is the wrong way to
think about it. I think it's too narrow a conceptualization. I think that you need literally to imagine
It.
It's like you get to be who you want. Well, you need to run the story like in detail and if you're trying to predict whether someone is going to commit suicide you ask them. Well you know if you ever thought about harming yourself. Well you know sometimes have you ever thought about killing yourself? Well, you know, the thoughts crossed my mind
Do you have a plan? Yeah, I have a plan. Well, can you tell me about the plan? Well, you know, my dad has a
45 in the top shelf of his desk. I've seen it in there. Several times, the bullets are in the drawer, next door. I thought, you know, I could probably put that in my mouth in the bathroom. So I didn't make too much of a mess and probably probably do that in the morning. That's like you that's not good. Yeah. Right. That person is in danger and yeah, because they've
The dream has entered their mind, they visualized it and so I don't it's not goal-setting, it's more like it's much more like casting yourself in a fully fleshed-out literary representation. Like, what is your future? Who are you? And what you want to do is negotiate with yourself. It's like, just imagine. This is a gospel idea, right? That if you knock the door will open, if you ask, you will receive if you seek, you will find and no one.
Leaves that but I believe it's true. But it depends on what you mean by knock ask and seek because it means if you mean it,
if your life depends on it. Yeah, that's right. That's right. You're all in on
it. It's like you want this? What do you mean? How am I no want? No, that's
all I want for like, two minutes a day and then you get bored. Right? Right. And your right hand wants in your left hand doesn't
and no no it doesn't mean that at all. It means you're going to make the sacrifices necessary and you're all in on it, okay? So then the question becomes
Um's.
Well, what's worth going all in on? And the answer that is ask yourself, you know, because we know that life has an unbearable element to it.
And so facing that forthrightly say life suffering man and plenty of it. And so what might make that worthwhile? Well what if I had someone I really loved who I was really attracted to that, I was really in love with that, I was sexually entranced by or what if I was that person for someone else because that's actually a better plan. You know, what would I have to do to myself to hypothetically? Be someone like that for someone else.
a much better way of thinking about what if I had kids that I loved, what if I had
Friends like King Arthur had friends. You know what if I was part of uh
Enterprise that was fundamentally changing the world for the better. It's like would that justify it?
Well, you have to ask yourself and if it isn't everything you need it to be that it's not a good vision.
And you're in an impossible situation, anyways.
So why not try to do something impossible? It's not going to be in some sense. It's not going to be any more difficult in any real sense, although it's going to require more dedication. It's not going to be any more difficult than just slumping along to the
Grave.
Yeah, not any less
painful. Well yeah, you have to forgo stupid short-term hedonistic pleasure which is
God. Anyone with any sense? No Like Cocaine. It's like great for a
week. You know. Like, 15
minutes. Yeah, not so, good iterated. Over 20 years now. Alcohols the same way. Casual sex is the same way any of those. We all know this. There isn't anyone who doesn't know these things? People pretend, oh, sex can just be for fun, it's like, yeah, right. What is just for fun name? One thing,
Inge let alone. Something is complicated and is entangling as sex and you also see the jobs public culture. It's like because in the universities, we have two things. Going, same thing, violation of the principle of non-contradiction. Any sexual orientation of any
sort or any
practice whatsoever is to be encouraged in every possible way with No Holds Barred and no limitations whatsoever and every single sexual interaction,
Between a young man, and a young woman is so dangerous that you need a written contract before proceeding
May, because everyone's being encouraged to do anything. Well, you get one of those. Yeah.
But not both because both of them can't exist simultaneously and so and I'm much more prone to
Give Credence to the danger side of it. It's like this is no joke. This is your life. You're messing around with or someone else's life. The person you're with the baby that you produce, this is no joke. So you think that's that anything goes, it's like anything doesn't go in a relationship, anything doesn't go in a friendship. Anything doesn't go in a business. Anything doesn't go when you're alone in the woods, trying to survive.
There's nowhere that anything goes and that to desire, that is so narcissistic. And so infantile that it's almost unexpressible and that's our culture. And
okay, so what are you looking forward to in the future? This is the last question, then I'm letting you go. What are you looking forward to?
Now, help me being healthy. Yeah,
not being on fire. I'll settle for that.
Any day, I'm not on fire.
That's a pretty good day
Talladega. Pretty good
day.
Today's just
fine. Good, thank you very much for joining me.
