I have a special announcement. So many of you ask me all the time. Louis. How do I grow a powerful personal brand? And how can I start a profitable side hustle, or how do I take my business to the next level? And I felt so called to create greatness Academy. It's the Learning Community for growth minded, entrepreneurs, where we have over, forty five trainings with new ones, being added each month, get it crated, helping you. Learn how to grow your brand and business. There's also Q and A sessions with me.
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This is episode number eight, nine. Nine. With number one, New York Times bestselling author
brene Brown.
Welcome to the school of greatness. My name is Lewis Howes former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week. We bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now, let the class begin.
Martin Luther King. Jr. Said, I decided to stick with love-hate, is too great. A burden to bear and me. Lebron said, in order to heal, we must forgive. And sometimes the person we needed to forgive is ourselves. Welcome to this special episode with brene brown. I had brene Brown on a couple of years ago, and I wanted to bring this interview back.
Because it's so powerful. And she had a recent book that came out that I feel like everyone should be checking out and this interview really got vulnerable. Got intimate for both of us. So, I hope you enjoy this, make sure to share with your friends Lewis, house.com 899, and if you don't know who burn a is, she is a research professor at the University of Houston, but once her Ted Talk, blew up on the Internet. A few years ago, she has appeared on much bigger platforms around the world, including Oprah the New York.
He's and many others and not only have her books changed millions of people's perspectives on what it actually means to be brave. Authentic and loved, she has started a conversation that has created a ripple effect among other thought leaders as well. Even the rock is talking about how inspired he is by brene Brown, and in this interview, we talked about what belonging truly means what every parent needs to know about when their kids grow up. How
Support men in being willing to discuss vulnerable topics. This is powerful, especially around the work that I've done with my book, The Mask of masculinity, why people hold on to hate for so long, why are avoidance of pain is causing so many huge issues in the world and how to deal with shame? Because we can't get rid of it. I'm so excited about this one. Again. If you have a friend that you care about, make sure to share this with them and
ask them what they enjoy about this episode. We're trying to spread the message of brene brown as much as possible, because the work she does is truly healing and transforming the world. Before we dive in one of let you guys know that we are launching our documentary. We've been working on a documentary for over a year and a half. It's coming out right now very shortly and we're giving it away for free. All you need to do is go to Greatness.com and check out the page sign up for when we release it, here, come.
In a few weeks and I loved to hear your thoughts on it. So go to Greatness.com., We're doing a movie premiere also in Los Angeles soon. So sign up to be notified about that and watch the documentary. We love to hear your thoughts. It's all about chasing greatness and discovering what greatness means to you. So go to Greatness.com, sign up to be notified of when we launched that.
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Two episodes just like this one. It's mapped out on Monday, a.com work OS. It's why our small But Mighty team can be. So productive, Monday.com is how effective teams meet their goals. If you manage a team, visit Monday.com for your free two week trial today, and without further Ado. Let's dive into this episode with the one and only brene
Brown.
Welcome back. Everyone to the school of greatness podcast. I'm very
Today we have the incredible brene Brown on. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Yes. I'm very excited to be here. We have an event called the summit of greatness every year an annual event and the people on my team in our program right down the person that they want to have on the school of greatness. And most of our team is women and most of them put your name down as the people that person we want to have on. So we're finally making it happen in my team can stop asking for Bernie. It's happening and I'm very excited about this.
As you have a new book out called braving the Wilderness, the Quest for True belonging in the courage to stand alone. Make sure you guys get this book right now. It's going to change the game and I got a chance to go through it. Love everything that you write about in here and I feel very connected to you. Yeah, because I felt very alone for almost my entire life. I felt like I didn't belong anywhere. I was the youngest of four. I was always picked on bullied. I was sexually abused when I was a kid by a man that I didn't know.
I was always picked last on sports teams. And I know you weren't even picked for thing. Was the step team or some type of?
Yeah, the drill team,
the drill team. I remember how that made that kind of transformed your life. It was defining defining, right. These moments that we go through, as kids can really Define and shape us. And so I'm just I feel connected to you in that sense that I felt very alone and didn't know who I was for a very long time. And still, I'm trying to learn who I am. Yeah. Thank you. You are you seem like you have it all figured out.
Oh God. No, I don't know. I don't have it. I mean, first of all.
I think the one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging? There's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up that suffering. Yeah, that's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was an eighth grade by itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it was like when things changed for me. I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So I think
think that I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know. I don't know that I've in, I don't know that I've interviewed anyone even spiritual leaders who have the belonging thing completely nailed because I don't think it is what we think it is, you know, I don't think that it's having a big Posse of friends or having a crew or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out because
I still feel lonely and alone, and on the outside of things on a really regular basis. Really.
I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people, 15 City Tour. Yeah, millions of fans around the world and you still feel alone.
Yeah, I can feel really lonely wind. It's really hard because you know, you talk about that book tour. I'm a severely introverted. Yes, super private. And so I love that connection between me and audience, but it can also be hard on me.
And also, I'm talking about things that no one.
It's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topic sometimes and we laugh, and we have fun and we'll sing. But I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone and to belong to yourself, Above All Else. And so, I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself.
And sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable. And so, I think that's hard and I think I do feel, I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the road map. Like, I want to find the
researcher Storyteller. Christian lover of all, people fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me, believing what I believe in and doing it really well.
But there's not really a blueprint. Sometimes
you got to figure it out. Yeah, we're all trying to figure it
out. I don't get to copy anybody and so it's hard. Yeah, it's still hard. But here's the thing that has changed everything for me. I belong to me.
So, even when I feel alone and I wonder like, who's my crew and who are my people?
I belong to me for sure, for the first time in my life, maybe.
Yeah, and I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in. Yeah, you know, I remember being in, you know, the youngest on the sports teams growing up. I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever. So I was the youngest and I remember just wanted to fit in just like you did in the that team I wanted to fit in. I wanted to feel like they liked me like I mattered. Like I was the cool kid or whatever and when they would do things that I didn't really agree with or they would be
The other kids were make fun of people. Like, I didn't want to not say anything, you know, I didn't want to stand against them because I want to belong. Yeah, so if I did stand up against them, then I means I was alone and that was my biggest fear was being
alone. No, yeah. Because that's what, that's what teams and groups deliver. Hmm. They deliver this thing that you're not alone. Yeah. The problem is, there's just, I was so shocked to learn and the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in.
Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say? What do I need to wear? How do I need to act and changing who you are and true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are. Because if we we believe if we fit in
Because how we've changed ourselves? That's not belonging.
That's not belonging because you betrayed yourself.
For other people. And that's not sustainable.
Yeah, you start to Lose Yourself.
You start to Lose Yourself exactly what you said? And so I think it's hard. You have to show up as who you are.
How do we find out who we are?
That's the life's work, right? That's freaking hard. You know who you are. Yeah, I do. Who are you in what
way?
If someone just said, who are you burn? A what would you say
brene? Brown? Mom partner researcher Storyteller, Texan. I don't know. I asked them how much time they have because, you know, the thing is that we want to, we asked people who they are and we want to know we like those really easy files to put them in but I'm a complicated person, are you? Yeah, and so I think I know who I am.
What makes you complicate it.
Have them complicated, but I'm clocks.
Your interesting.
I hope so. Very interesting. Some days. Now. I think what makes me complexes. I think what makes everyone complex is the paradoxical nature of people. Mmm. So, you know, like I speak in public. I love doing that, but I was incredibly introverted. I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. My kids say, yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. But I also raise them to challenge authority. Every time they get the opportunity to do that. But to be really polite when they're doing
Yeah, so I think I'm I'm unapologetically Earnest, like, I believe in the goodness of people, but I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good. Yeah, and so,
I think I understand people. I think have a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort. Yes. I think there's just a lot of push and pull. Sure. And I think that's true of all of us do not like to be defined.
Mmm. I think they have to you. I was going to say, I feel like my entire life. I didn't want to be defined as well. They were like, you're going to be this jock and college. You're going to be like this alcoholic. You're going to be in the frats. Yeah. All my siblings said this to me and I was like, no. I'm not. I made a bet with each one of my siblings. $100 each that I want to have one sip.
Alcohol and college because I was like, I'm going to go against everything. You think I'm going to be. Yeah, I joined the School Musical because they were like you just going to do Sports. I sang, I play guitar. I salsa dance. I was like, I'm gonna do everything different than what people expect of a tall white man, right? That sauce is like I want to be different. And I think that process, I was like, trying to discover who I really was what I liked my dreams. What, you know, what was fun for me? Yeah, as opposed to just trying to fit the box in the mold of everybody else because you can lose yourself in that fitting and I think
You can lose yourself in the fitting in and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting.
Then it's true trying to go against it after yeah.
Yeah, it's really hard and it's the thing that
It's a quote, that is braving. The Wilderness is all about this starts with this quote, from Maya Angelou that you're never free until we belong nowhere, which we belong everywhere, which is nowhere, which is no place at all, which I thought was a terrible quote for many years and I was like, why are you saying that dr. Angelo you're pissing me off, but then I realized really the and she says the cost is high, but the reward is great. And I think
I think that's the thing that I feel like I belong Everywhere. I Go.
No, no matter where it is or who I'm with. As long as I never betray myself.
And the minute I become who you want me to be in order to fit in and make sure people like me is the moment. I no longer belong anywhere. Mmm. That is hard. Yeah. I mean, that's a hard practice. That's an everyday practice. Well, yeah. Because I can, I can be whoever you want me to be like that. Like a chameleon, you said? Oh, I can be totally like a camellia. Like sometimes it's really funny because like, I always because I travel so much, I have all these miles. I always sit in business class and I'm normally the only woman in business class.
Every now and then there's one other maybe which is a conversation. We should be having to sure. But it doesn't matter what dude, sits next to me. Like I can talk about whatever that person like and it's so funny because we'll talk about sports. Usually, first our football or will talk about politics and they'll say what do you do? MSI study, vulnerability and shame. Oh, well, huh. Well, I'm going to play some Angry Birds, you know, and write that.
Moment, like I could just and it's not that I know everything about everything. It's
just
So you're saying most men don't want to chime in and learn more
about. That's usually, if I want to go to sleep and like, imma show you researcher. What do you do? Like? Okay, but I think I can be anything
like yeah, you're doubtful.
I'm adaptable and adaptable is great because because anyone that comes to my home or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable course, but then if I get so adaptable that my goal, my intention of adapting is to make sure you like me then that's when I betrayed
myself. Yeah.
What would you say is the time in your life? You've been the most alone
High School,
the whole journey, yeah. Just sucked.
It does suck it and you know my daughter just graduate from high school and she had this amazing experience, you know, just just incredible experience and it was so healing to watch. That's nice. Yeah, and I think it happened because
She, I think she's a confidence to put herself out there and, you know, student council president and the, you know, that kind. I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what you belong here. No matter how goofy awkward afraid.
Wrong doesn't matter, you belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that, at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Is that make sense?
They feel safe coming back. No matter what happens. There's a little place to come home
to and I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four and fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team, but in my
In my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a cheerleader or you on the drill team and preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French Club. You know, I would have been in debate. Are those kind of things paper. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, photographer. The yearbook. Yeah, but those things did not have a lot of value. Really? No, not
stand. Still that had something credible or
worthwhile. It's just, I cool was the number
One value at home. Cool, lots of friends popular. And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. Hmm, you know, I was yeah, I was. And so what I did is I just started drinking smoking weed, hanging out with, you know, I found I found a place to be, you know, cool. And yeah, that just goes, bad
fast. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this? Oh, yeah, we've talked about all of it. Yeah. You've let it go. You process at all.
Yeah, because they, you know, they read my books, as I write them and they're, you know, they're like shit. This is exactly what every parent wants a child, grows up to be a shame researcher. But no, they just, that's the miracle of my parents, like my parents. They've taught me. The best thing about parenting that anyone I think could ever know which is it doesn't end when your kids leave. Hmm, like they keep growing and exploring and learning, you know, and however hard it was for me, not being able to be volume. We
Did not do vulnerability growing up. Really? No. No like yeah, like our family motto is literally Lock and Load like get ready, you know family trips. You're in the car for five hours. It's all six of us. You really have to go the bathroom, but the rest, I was on the other side of the highway, we're not pulling over like suck it up. Hold it up. Like we were tough. We were tough, like we'd fall down and get hurt. You know, my dad would say, like I got bigger scratches and that on my ball, you know, like really. Yeah, like we were tough and so,
Were and we were taught to outrun vulnerability?
We were taught to suck it up, Soldier on get, er, done. Yeah, and so, however hard that was for me, growing up. Imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s. Mmm, you know, my dad, who is the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16, you know,
was able to process that or
no? No, we just did the next thing you do played football, played college ball.
My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after was an alcoholic and she was drunk every other day of my mom's life, but she was the most amazing person in the world, but everyone knew she was an alcoholic. So my mom wasn't allowed to have friends that are at her house growing up because it was the 50s and she was divorced, you know, and so my mom became the head of the drill team and that the, you know, the valedictorian and and so, however hard it was for me growing up having to try to outrun vulnerability. It was a
Times harder on my parents and they didn't, they did what they knew how to do and they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so I don't have
I think the hard part comes from people that I've interviewed my whole life where the parents don't grow and change, and they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did as opposed to my parents who leaned in and say, tell me more about that till I'm a funny story. We hear a funny story, but my dad. Yeah, it's great. So we do a lot of choice Theory with my daughter and my son and so choice at my husband's a pediatrician. So like we, you know, a lot about Child Development from are just from school, right? And so when I went
One was little I used to do this thing where we would say, you have two choices like Louis. You have two choices. You can either hand me the water. I'm gonna have to take it from you. What is your choice? So that if you decide not to hand it to me and I have to take it. It's not my first choice, right? And so what, one night I was talking to Elena. We were my dad's house and Santana, and I was like, how Ellie you need to turn off. Dora the Explorer. It's time to go to bed. And she's like I said, Ellen, you have two choices, you can get up and turn off the TV, or I'm going to get up and turned off for you.
You and if I have to get up and, you know, turn off the TV, You're Gonna Lose privileges to watch it
tomorrow. That's your
choice. Yeah, that's your choice. So, do you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice and my dad was sitting in the recliner. Next to me, like, Damn sis. What are you raising a hostage negotiator? I was like, Dad and he's like, seriously burn a, we had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that. Yeah. So the next day I come home. I'm visiting friends in San Antonio and he's watching Ellen, and he's in the driveway. It's like a hundred ten degrees in San Antonio, and he's sweating.
He's like, Alan, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up or I'm gonna have to put it up for you. And the second one. Is it - Choice, like wow, you're so close to getting there, getting there. My parents are amazing in that way that like they're learning and changing. So I think it's harder when parents say I'm done. What you got was what you got. No, apologies. No change. Your name is take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids.
You're a sucker and I think we see that a
lot. Yeah, we do.
I mean, what should parents be learning about how they can grow. I mean, how can they start to be aware as I think it starts with being aware for sure of what they know and what they don't know. And being receptive to learning something different, which is really hard to do. I think, once you've had these habits for so long, so that's the first thing. And I want to dive into the lack of vulnerability with what's happening in Charlottesville right now as well. As I know you did something on that this morning, so I guess how can parents listen to this and be aware.
And be willing to move forward in a different way of learning, something new, when they're so stuck, in their ways, potentially that it's worked for them to this point to get to, where they're at.
You know, I think,
I believe this with my whole heart, I believe that 99.9 percent of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have. Yeah. I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up and maliciously. Try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. I think we're doing the best we can with what we have and so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from that, I have to just come.
People defend their parenting like they're defending their lives because it's such a shame Minefield. Yeah, you know, I mean a great example is the work you're doing around men and vulnerability.
I cannot tell you the number of fathers and the hundreds, if not thousands of fathers. I've interviewed that said, I shamed my son. Every time he was vulnerable. Yeah.
I put him down, I made fun of them. I hit him every time he was vulnerable. And now I look back and I know it's because that's the way I was raised. I was afraid he'd be soft and get hurt at school or you know, whatever the thing is. And so I think for parents it's about understanding giving yourself permission to not have I'm not perfect like, you know, like I've never not been a researcher in a parent. My husband's a pediatrician, I kids will be in therapy. You're right. And the reason why I think that'll be so successful.
Is there's only two kind of kids, you raise kids who will ask for help when they need it. Our kids, who won't. And that's as good as it gets is to raise a kid. He'll ask for help.
Yeah, I never asked for help. Yeah, I was always suffering inside. Yeah, right. And I was felt shameful guilty. And I just my way of asking was being angry resentful, mad hitting people in sports or outside of sports because that's all I knew.
I'll tell you a story about a guy that entered that I interviewed very one of the first men I interviewed when I went from interviewing all.
Women to men was a guy who said, I said, what a shame for you and he used the PSP, you ssy word, which is like just synonymous with shame and male culture, right? And he said, I'll never forget the day that changed my life. He said I was at football practice. I was a freshman in high school and he said, the coach, I'd get on the line and I didn't want to get on the line, the line of scrimmage. Yeah, in case people don't know, I know, you know, but he
To make sure I walked right through all the sports metaphors with them. Exactly. And he said, I was afraid to get on the line because I know, you know, it's where people crash into each other and so I must have had fear on my face because my coach looked at me and said, don't be Apu ssy get on the line and he said, that's the day that I learned that the way you deal with that is you changed that fear into rage and he said and I just plowed.
Loud over the guy across from me. And then he said, then I spent a lot next. 20 years plowing over my wife, my children, my colleagues, the people who worked for me. Yeah. He said, that's what I did with my
fear. Yeah. I mean, I can definitely relate. Yeah. I mean, I remember being picked last on a team once when it was a co-ed sport. We're playing dodgeball on the playground. I think the third or fourth grade and there's two captains, two guys and they were picking one at a time. Right? And they put they do they pick all the
I see ya and I'm like, okay, I'm going to be the last guy chosen. Yeah, but then they go and pick all the girls and then that, I'm gonna pick my name. I'm just by default the last Pickers team. So as a as a, you know, a boy trying to fit in third, fourth grade was devastating. And I told myself in that moment. I was like, never again. Will I be picked last at any sport? I'll do whatever it takes. I'm going to be a machine. I'm going to train for six hours a night. I'm going to, you know, take no prisoners.
Leti. Yeah, just I mean, I dominated on that dodgeball game that day. I was just, like, throwing the ball. I just dive the everywhere. I was like, never again, you
know, you ever get packed fixed last again?
Never got picked last again, right? But, and it helped me achieve, you know, was Allstate in multiple Sports was All-American into sports or broke World Records. I've played professional football. I play on the USA, handball team now and it guided me towards achieving these things, but it left me feeling very unfulfilled. Every time I achieve them or any time we lose. It was like an attack.
My life. Every loss we ever had in a sport. It was like my life was at stake and I felt like I was worthless because if I didn't win, yeah, that meant no one was going to accept me. I wasn't good enough where I was going to be picked last or something. So I would take it. So personally, when I went to win, and then I would take it out of my family. My girlfriend's, my friends, everything and I didn't know how to communicate and I'm still learning and I'm still in perfect every day, but it's like,
I was even aware. There was never any information about how to connect your, how to communicate and feel like it was okay or you allowed to because anytime you try to talk about any vulnerabilities, as a guy growing up for me. It was like you're a pu s Sy, yeah, don't be a little girl, can't be a bi TCH, you know, all these things. And so it's a very I think it's very hard for me and especially for a lot of men who grew up to stand alone and feel like they belong in an isolated world. If they're not going to join a group that's going to make fun of them or put other people down. So, how do we stand alone?
Own when we're not introverted or we want to be around other people. How do we how can men communicate better or feel like it's okay to be vulnerable? Yeah, we were talking before about how most men that I know played sports with, would never watch the Power of vulnerability, Ted talk or they would never read, you know, books from you or Oprah that I'm aware of, because they would talk bad about, you know, female leaders trying to talk about vulnerability. Yeah, you know, they would say that's soft that's week. You want to watch that stuff. I don't read that.
It's tough when really that's the stuff we need the most and my opinion.
And I think it's changing. I think I told you earlier. I think 50% of the readers are daring greatly or men and the and the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations friend, and I'll tell you, I'll tell you why. Why is man, I can, I can flip it for you on a dime. Yeah. So used to take me when men with men would say, this is how the call would go. Hey, we'd love for you to come in and work with our leadership team. We saw your Ted.
Hot. We thought it was great. Are you available? And I say, sure what you want me to talk about and they say anything, but vulnerability and shame and I would
say why,
so what do you want me to talk about? If I don't talk about water, but they take courage and then I would say, okay, then I would try to spend like a half an hour. Explain the relationship between vulnerability and courage, because all men want to be
brave isn't vulnerability, courage.
Going to Billy's courage. So, he's very power. Yes. I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing. It's this
owner ability is defined as uncertainty risk, and emotional exposure. Can you name one act of Courage that you've ever been involved in or that you've ever even witnessed? That did not involve uncertainty risk and emotional exposure and it's a loaded question because I know the answer is, no, because I've asked it thousands and thousands. I've stood in front of Navy, Seals and Special Forces.
Military personnel and said, give me an exam. I want you to try hard to give me an example of Courage that didn't require vulnerability and in 10 years. I've never had a single person be able to come up. I've even had two guys come up to me, who were in the military? That said, we're going to think about it and get with
you. Never got back. My
God, is it do it? I would love it. Give me an example of Courage, even on the field.
It doesn't involve vulnerability. Like if you if it if you think you're being brave and it doesn't involve risk or uncertainty. You're not being that brave. If, you know, if you know, it's going to turn out, it's not courage and so in that moment people go shut.
But I want to be brave and I don't want to be vulnerable, and I'm like, Darren lies the great dilemma of our time, right? Yeah, no one wants to be uncomfortable. Hmm. No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave and it just doesn't work like that,
right? In any time. We try something new. We've got a, we've got to be uncomfortable. Yeah, it's vulnerable.
I mean, when I ask people, what is vulnerability, people would say, initiating sex with my wife, sending my child out the door who thinks he's going to make the
An orchestra and knowing he's probably not going to make the orchestra at all getting fired. Starting my own business saying I love you first in a relationship trying to get pregnant after my first miscarriage. I mean like vulnerability is its uncertainty it's not knowing but doing it anyway because it's the brave thing to do.
And so the problem is I think that the greatest shame trigger for men.
Is do not be perceived as weak.
And in our culture, we believe that vulnerability is weakness. So you don't have to skip too many steps before you go. Hey, it shaming to be vulnerable. And so men, do two things in the face of Shame, pissed off, or shut
down. Hmm. Put on a mask, but on a mask.
And so what we're learning and what people are starting to see very quickly is, you cannot be a courageous leader if you're not vulnerable, if you're not willing to have hard.
Comfortable conversations. Give hard feedback receive hard feedback, excavate issues like Charlottesville that no one wants to talk about like discomfort is the great enemy of courage.
Like, my motto, is we say it here all the time. Choose courage over Comfort because you can't have both, mmm. And if you're think you're being brave and you're super comfortable, you're not being that
brave.
Is there an area of your life right now? Where you don't feel? You're courageous enough?
Or something, you've been wanting to say to people that you haven't said fully or
holding back on the Charlottesville. Facebook live today was hard, was it? Yeah. Oh, yes. I wish my voice was shaking. I was shaking. In fact, we got here today and we knew we were going to film us together, but we were going to film some other stuff. First. I said just need to do the Facebook live because I don't want to lose my courage and I think that's hard because when you're when you talk about race and privilege and Power,
first of all, your I'm going to get like, you know, death threats, and people are going to say, you know, all that
stuff, you're wrong, either way you want,
but the, the ability that I have to opt out of speaking out about it, because it doesn't supposedly affect me, is the definition of privilege. Hmm. So I don't believe we can opt out of it. Yeah, and I know that I'm white upper-middle-class really educated judeo, Christian straight. I know that I've got blinders.
On that, no matter how hard I work. I will see something that is not right, and it will, people will come back and they will fire off against me around it, and it will hurt. But I'd rather take the chance and it hurting and learning. But it's always scary. It's scary to talk about the stuff today. It's like, do you think
it's really hard and I try to come from a place of like super authentic and loving of all Humanity all the time. Yeah. I was raised by, you know, I had two great parents, but my
my mom and told her sisters were really the ones who came back to me after they would go on a date with a guy to be like Louis never do this on a date. You're always treat women this way. So I've always tried my best. Yeah, you know, I'm imperfect in so many ways and constantly make mistakes with people and he too but most my team I was telling you before most of my team is women. I think 80% of my team is women and they get they get accessible. Well that and they get paid more than the men of my team. Not because they're women but because they produce better results and I
My business is based on results. Yeah, I've got people of different ethnicities. I've got people of different sexual orientations and I had someone tell me last week they said
You know, white male privilege is a thing and I think you need to incorporate more values in the organization so that you're not living from this white male privilege place. And I was thinking about I was hurt by this because I get it. I'm white. I can't there's nothing I can do. And based on the way. I was born. Nothing. I can do, right? Can't change the way I was born, but I can choose to determine how I want to live. I want to show up on the right. So I'm constantly trying to be mindful of speaking out more. Yeah, of course, I think that's what a lot of mine.
Interesting about Charlottesville with if white men aren't opening up and talking about this more. It's not going to come across to the people that are I guess marching with torches, which is just blows my mind that this is happening. Still it blows me away that this is happening. I don't understand it. I'm like, I'm Blown Away.
I know and I'm just like, how can I be a better more impactful in this place? And how can we get rid of this? How can we end it? I'm
yeah, I answer. It just blows my mind. No, and I think we need to do a lot more listening than, you know, and hear what? Hear from the people who've been affected by this, the longest. I think we do need to speak out. I think white silence around these issues is death. I mean, I just think it's, it's terrible. I don't think we can come.
And and save the day. I think we need to come in and with humility and curiosity and say, this is what I think and I want to learn. I want if I make mistakes, let me know and I'll try to make them better and I think we need to take responsibility and I think
It's easier sometimes for me and my life.
Two.
Just keep asking questions. Just keep reading. Just keep, just keep talking about it. And when I am so uncomfortable that I don't want to do it anymore just to keep doing it because to remember that my discomfort is, you know, that's my privilege. Yeah, and so I don't know that there's an answer other than discussions, and I'm not, I wasn't surprised.
About Charlottesville really
know. I just really it just blows my mind. Maybe, I'm just ignorant to
that. I don't think it's about being ignorant to it. It doesn't have studied shame for 15 years in fear. Like, that's what it looks like.
What do you think? They're these individuals margin? Like this are most shameful of in their own life. Why do so I would
never mention to guess. I don't know but I do think it's about powerlessness. They feel powerless. Yeah, and I think that people go. Oh my God.
Okay, so the white, you know, the white guy and the khakis and the you know, fancy polo shirt feels powerless and you know Cry Me a River. I think we don't we don't give a shit about that at our own Peril, not caring about it.
And not trying to understand it. I'm not taking it on my load for sure. I'm not going to add it to my back. I got other stuff to do, but I am going to try to understand it because I can't imagine a way through what needs to happen over the next decade.
That does not involve.
Understanding pain.
There's just incredible James Baldwin quote. That says, now I understand why people hold on to their hate so stubbornly. Because once they let it go, there's nothing but pain.
And I think we we dismiss and don't care about that pain at our own Peril because pain will make itself known.
It will not be dismissed. It's not an effector an emotion that dissipates when it's ignored.
Yeah, I think this is this is fascinating. You're saying this because I never wanted to feel the emotional pain. It was so hard to go through. I got a breakup with a girlfriend. Like I didn't know how to deal with the emotional loss. Yeah. Of any type of pain, or suffering as a man. And I remember being in the fetal position, my freshman year in college for days, sobbing in my dorm room, just
Problem ball because I, you know, a relationship ended and I was so sad to be alone and I didn't have this person in my life anymore and I would take it out on the football field. I was like, I don't want to feel this type of emotional pain. So how can I inflict as much physical pain on myself and other people to get it out? And it's hard to switch that off. And just be like this, loving vulnerable, man. After you're on the football field, like inflicting pain on other people because you're supposed to
know. And I think whether we play football,
Ball or not? We're much better at causing pain than we are feeling pain. Don't want to feel it. Now, you don't. And so we caused it and we heard other people and so and if you look at leadership, whether you're an organization, leading a country, leading a family as a parent.
One of the cheapest. Easiest ways to lead is to give people someone to hate and blame for your own your misery. Hmm. And so, we have to really watch that in our country right now. So if we all you have to do when people are in uncertainty and fear is give them someone to blame and
Give them a reason to blame them and then step back and watch everything just fall apart. And so I think that's happening right now in our country. And so we have to push away.
The rhetoric we have to own our pain. And let me tell you, it's not like you tell that story about the football field and it's so prophetic because
every crisis we're up against right now. Almost without exception is about our inability or unwillingness to deal with pain. If you look at the opioid addiction right now across, you know, somewhere beginning with Physicians.
Sent a message. There's no reason for you to hurt at
all. Mmm. Here's a pain reliever.
Here's a pain reliever, you know, and things are not going well in your life. Well, here's a way to discharge hate and pain. That'll make you feel better. Like, like we drinking or that's right. We're the best. Yeah. Medicated, addicted, in debt, and obese, Americans in history, like, our tolerance for discomfort.
Zero soft.
Yeah, yeah. So here's the irony soft
starter in football. Don't be soft. Don't be
soft. So it's actually an ability to be vulnerable. Yeah, that makes us weak.
Yeah, I agree. I one of the things I talked about and try to express as many people as possible is to actually put yourself through pain and discomfort every single day. I try to do this physically through working out to try to push myself farther than I want to where I'm like emotionally want to cry. Yeah. Because I just know biconditional myself to feel pain every single day. That went. A lot of stuff comes my way. I'm capable of taking it on and processing. The emotions as opposed to being like I just need a drink. I need this. I need that. I've never been drunk.
Life, so let me know what that feels like, but it's hard, especially as for myself. I'll speak for myself as a man. It's hard growing up. Learning how to deal with those type of emotions. It's really challenging. There's no class in school. It says, okay. When you're feeling this way, Louis, here's how you're supposed to act on her ability. Yeah, here's how you're supposed to act. Here's the step by step process. Like there's no process that were taught, unless it's our parents or we seek it
out and it's not model because I think
Parents fear kind of soft boys training to soft men who, you know, I remember interviewing this guy who was in a 70s and I said, what a shame to you. And he's like, shame is being the kid, you can shove up against the
lockers. Yeah. Yeah. Shame is being the kid that you shovel.
Yeah. Being the kid that you can shove up against the lockers, you know, and it's like
But really, we've got a shift it and we've got to shift. I think it starts parenting. School, athletics is huge. Mean. It's a really. I mean, let me, let me, let me do this. You're okay. This is to use a sports thing, do it. Ok. Ready? Ok.
Two football teams, you're going to place a bet. Okay, both of them have hurt quarterbacks. Hmm. Both of them are playing. Well, both of them have hurt. Quarterbacks. This team over here recognizes its vulnerability is going to put in a second stream. Quarterback. This team ignores, its vulnerability and pretend like it doesn't exist. Who are you betting on?
Depends on the injury
now, Jesus
my whole life, you know, so
say that most of us would say you are more you are less likely to win. If you do not acknowledge your vulnerabilities as so even if you play your quarterback, you got to make sure your line is ready.
Exactly. You got to switch to play as upright and your eyes hurt. You're going to pass it on. So
given more time in the whole, whenever
you going to do it knowledge is their vulnerabilities. It's gonna be more successful as adaptable, right change, right?
Got to be
more success, right? Yes, right. So why do we think as men to pretend like, you're not vulnerable, makes you the most vulnerable? Yeah. Makes you the most acceptable.
I mean, we just have data data me just like I can fill this whole room with data about
You don't get to opt-out. Let me ask you this. Do you know a guy in the world? You know, a lot of guys, right? Who can say I've existed this point in my life without being uncertain at risk or emotionally exposed, right? You can't not do vulnerability, but you can pretend like, you don't. Then you're not making choices over the behaviors, you engage in When You're vulnerable. Yeah, then you don't know.
When You're vulnerable and then you're acting naughty
and I think you pay major prices, oh, yeah, well, you don't when you aren't aware when you're not acting like you're aware, yeah. Just act like everything's fine. You don't need help. You don't need support. You don't need to address the situation or yeah, grieve or whatever it is. That's when you get hurt the most, it's when you get hurt the man who suffer the most, and I think that's when the most anger, frustration range rage. And I guess the Virgin happens.
Watching this video last night where they were documenting the whole process of the Charlottesville thing, Vice was doing this.
The person interviewing like the leader, one of the guys was like the leader of the marches or whatever was saying about how, you know, this is our land and our forefathers were whites and it belongs to us. It's like this whole thing that it belongs to a certain race or something. It's I can just blows my mind. It's
like forgetting clearly about the Native Americans who were very who are here. We check it,
right? Exactly. But I mean, just blows my mind that all this comes back to like feel like we need to belong I guess to and protect. What was
So what's our right?
Something it all comes back to Identity and belonging belonging. Yeah, but at, but underneath identity and belonging, there's something that we don't talk about and it comes, it comes down to power.
It comes down to power and I think what we're witnessing is power over his last
stand and that's what I love to do. You write about how I think most men who come from this place feel like powers only one person or one group can have the power supposed to. We can spread the power. Yeah. Throughout the
world. Like it's a pepperoni pizza, right? Like if I give Louis a little power I'm going to have less. So make sure I'm comfortable giving it to you when it's not. Don't give any slices away. Don't give slices away. Hold all the. And so what we see around the world,
Not just with this Administration, but globally is we see the concept of power over making a Last Stand.
And it is not going to work. What is going to work? Moving forward with the completely devastatingly difficult problems. We have at hand is power with and power to power with each other Collective power. The things that are killing us, right now. We're not going to solve by ourselves as a nation, their Global issues. We need Global Solutions. We need everyone at the table for them. But that is a really I mean, we are at a huge.
Turning point in history. That should not be minimized or misunderstood me for the first time. Ever, the problems that challenge. Us us challenge us. The the most are problems that will not be solved with national solutions. They are Global problems that require Global Solutions and collaboration. And for a lot of people that's really scary. Hard, hard hard. What about us? What about me, you know?
And last stands, you know about last dance, last answer, violent. Yeah. Last dance are fueled by desperation, whatever it takes beer and whatever it takes
and looking at all, risking
it all. And so what you're seeing right now are people risking it all showing up at these marches with freaking tiki torches. I mean, like signing this dog around the Polynesia. Our Polynesian people feel about their tiki torches, but I mean like with tiki torches, basically.
Basically mimicking. The Klu Klux Klan. It's okay, but without cheats, this is like, this is power over his last stand, and these folks are nostalgic for a time that never
existed, but they thought they had the
power with a, yeah, they're what they're interested in is it was so much better back then and what they're not saying is when people knew their place and so it's going to get harder.
Mmm, if you had a mess.
Courage to give to our nation's leader. What would you say
Rusev out said that the president's the presidency above all else? Is a place for moral leadership, and I believe there are lines that we do not cross their morality lines etched in dignity about people's inherent worth, and we should never cross those lines, and they have been crossed so many times.
Around immigration around women, around building walls and that. At the very least, we can, we can argue about policy. We can argue about whether, you know, social security lock boxes, or what should we do around? Taxation Health Care. Those are important things, but at the very least, a person in that office should be a moral leader.
And that line should never be crossed. Because when you cross it, it says so much more about your integrity than it does about the people. You're attacking.
Yeah. Yeah.
If you had a microphone and everyone had headphones on was listening to the end of this microphone and you got a message to share to all the men in the world within 60 seconds or less and all the men were to put on headphones and hear a message from
you Jerry or Welling and I like it.
And you got one chance to say something to these men from all over the world, and they could all understand English and I understood you,
you taking care of all the logistics
Logistics. They got it on.
It's not fuzzy. There's no Wi-Fi signal and it's all everyone's got access to hearing your voice for 60 seconds. All the men and all the women are actually standing by listening as well.
What would you say to all the men of the world in general?
Golly, you know, wouldn't want to screw that up. Let me think. Yeah, I think I would say that vulnerability is not weakness. It's about the willingness to show up and be seen when you can't control the outcome, and it is actually our greatest measure of courage.
So, show up in an authentic way.
And let us see your hearts.
Because we know how lonely you actually
are. Wow.
Yeah, then are lonely. I mean, it's it's really mineral only. It's really hard. Yeah, but I would not I think that's I don't think I would say anything differently to women as either, you know, because I think
there is certainly, you know, for women the greatest shame trigger is
Do it all, do it perfectly, and never let them see. You sweat. Look, perfect, work. Perfect. Perfect. In all areas. Yeah. Yeah. Be smoking. Hot and Brilliant and this, but don't ever look like you're putting any effort toward it and so easy, right? Is it is I don't understand why my sister's have not nailed that but I think so. It's hard for women to be vulnerable because it's less than perfect, you know, so I don't know, women are wearing masks.
Yeah, and it's terrible because then the two Collide and you see in a lot of Partnerships. I mean, I've seen it so much of my research, this contract we have, where I'll stay smokin hot and awesome and you know, money and earn and provider. Shame is such a real thing for men and, you know, you do this and this is our contract and we're both in straightjackets till we die.
Yeah, and so, like, we remove those Jacks. We do start getting real with each other. We start being really honest and we see each other.
You know, we really see each other. Yeah. Wow.
I've got a few minutes left. So I'm gonna be mindful of these questions. I know I could actually do now I could ask you. I could talk to you for hours. Is there anything you feel ashamed of still?
I have moments for sure. Like I will have moments of but now I know. I mean it's we can't ever get rid of Shame. What we can do is develop resilience to shame. So when it happens and it washes over that warm wash, that makes you feel small and not enough. When that washes over me, rather than yelling at my kids are just decimating myself with hateful language, you know, and like you're stupid or you're not you. Now, when it washes over me, I'm like, okay. I'm and shame. Don't talk text or type.
What happened? So there are still, I mean, I still have triggers around it. I still have triggers around it. I still think it's probably the same motherhood trying to, you know, do everything and balance everything and be where I'm supposed to be and that's still hard. Sometimes. You know, what is
the process that someone should take on when they feel shame, anger? Rage?
Well, shame, it's a shame. I can't really help you with is first and foremost. Talk to someone. Talk to yourself like, you talk to someone you love. So if
Really, if you if something happens and you're overwhelmed with shame. The first thing you need to do is get back on your emotional feet. Don't talk text or type to anyone because the first one of the things we want to do is push that shit out on other
people. I'm good at that. Yeah, I'm guilty of
that. Yeah, so just get into a dark quiet place. And then talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love just be like, dude. It's okay. Like you screwed this up. You what you said was super hurtful. You're going to have to Circle back and clean that stuff up.
But give yourself a break here. Just like I would talk to Eleanor Charlie if they made a mistake, then reach out and talk to someone about what you're feeling. Shame, cannot survive being spoken. So if you, if I call you and I'm like, oh my God, Lois. I'm in a shame shitstorm. You're not going to believe what happened and you listen to me and you respond empathically or empathetically with something like, oh my god. I've been there or oh God, I get it. I'm sorry. That sucks. Mmm. Shame can't hold on. Cuz shame, can't survive, empathy.
Hundred percent agree with that quick example. For 25 years. I held onto this shame of being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. And I was like if anyone knew this about me, you know, my life was over. That's how shameful I felt embarrassed and yeah, you know, abused I felt from the experience and when I finally had the courage to share it, it took me, you know, a couple of years have shared over and over many, many times. I don't feel shameful. I like I can talk about it openly.
Openly and freely without feeling embarrassed without feeling weak soft vulnerable because, you know, I own the experience and it's not something I have to hold in and like rate react through rage because I can just share it. And I can communicate as opposed to so brave, hold into this. Yeah, and I think whenever I face anything, I'm scared talk about now. I just say, well, how can I talk about it is? How can I Journal? I like to journal first? Oh, that's huge. Oh, no, one can shame me. Write an awesome deal. Huge. Yeah.
And then start having conversations. And when we have ownership over that shame, I feel like it doesn't own us anymore.
I mean, so that's a perfect example. First of all, it's devastating than that happens. It happens to boys one in six. Yeah, and they think that's an under estimate. You think that that
one in six is what's
known. Yeah, and they think it's probably double that because of our culture and inability of boys to speak safely. Even to their own parents around it. I never told anyone right person. Oh, right, so,
So so here's the example. Exactly, you talk about it now. So when you sew two choices, you own your story, you get to write the ending. You don't own the story. The story owns you. Yeah, so then you talk about it now, so shame can't hold on, but then people see and hear you talking about it and it gives them permission to talk about it. That's why shame cannot hold onto being spoken. So your courage
To talk about that deflate shame. It takes it out of the air. It's like filtering poison out of water, because you've got the courage to speak up. I mean, and that's how it works. And that's how all of this works is that we own our story. Our it owns US.
Final two questions. I know. I've got to hurry up. Okay. This is called the three truths. I asked everyone at the end of the yet the interviews three truths, you've written many books, you know.
Number one, New York Times Best Sellers, let's imagine. It's your last day. Many, many years from. Yeah, you get to write the story when it's your last day on your own terms, right? You've written every book you've ever wanted to write. Okay, said everything. You've always wanted to say you've done every video interview, whatever it is. You've achieved anything you set out to do, okay, but for whatever reason, it's all erased and gone. So no one has access to any of this information. Okay, and you're there with all the people you care about, you have a piece of paper in a pan and you get to write down three things, you know to be true.
True about everything you've experienced in life. This is all people would have your message left behind. What would you say are the three truths for you?
Steve Allen and Charlie were my greatest. True love's. For sure. After that. Everything seems small.
Love takes courage be brave. Let yourself be seen.
And don't wait for the grown-ups to get there. It's that's that's the myth. We don't know what we're doing. We're just putting our best foot forward. So if you have an idea or an answer go for it, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Before I ask the final question. Yeah. I want to make sure you guys go
get here for the finals. Let's go.
But this is braving the Wilderness the Quest for True belonging and the courage to stand alone. Make sure you guys
Get this book. It's going to be a game-changer, highly recommend it. So I'll have it linked up everywhere on the site and below this video very powerful. You're an incredible writer and I just know this is going to serve. So many people who feel alone in the world of uncertainty. And I want to acknowledge you burn a for being an Incredible Gift To The World, with all of your imperfections and the beautifulness that you have within you. I think it takes so much, courage to share these things the way you
Been doing them for years decades. You've been opening up and talking about it and to bring it out to a public platform and continue to dive in deeper. I acknowledge you because the weight that it carries of listening to everyone else's.
Pain. As I've started to open up about mine. I just feel the weight of everyone. Now sharing with me. I can only imagine it's a lots of the weight that you get to carry and are you know, privilege to carry because of the work you're getting to do and the impact you have on. So many people who feel who are suffering, who feel like there is no hope there is no way out who are stuck in all areas of our life. You give people such inspiration and tools and education on.
I want to transform the life. So I acknowledge you for all the work that you do. Thank you. You're welcome. You're welcome. This is the final question. It's amazing. You're welcome. My pleasure. Yeah, the final question is simple. It's what's your definition of greatness?
To own your story and love yourself through that process, that's greatness to
me.
Appreciate you. Thank you very much. Thank you.
Thank you so
much for listening to this conversation. If you enjoyed it and you want to dive into another similar School of greatness episode, check out the links in the podcast description. I've done more than 950 episodes over the past seven years and I want to bring you more inspiration. Just like this.
One more thing, my team and I are still giving away Amazon gift cards to our listeners and we've been choosing for Lucky winners. Each week like Joseph asks from Perth, Australia and Natasha be from Lisbon Portugal. Ethan am from Texas and so many others, and that's right. Each one of them one Amazon gift card, but here's why I need your help to get to know you my listeners a lot better. So, I created a short and simple survey and all you have to do is fill out this quick questionnaire at Lewis house.com.
Tom survey and that's it. It only take a couple of minutes but it'll go a long way towards helping me and this podcast, serve you at the highest level possible. And as a thank you for completing it. I am choosing for new winners. Each week to get a $25 us Amazon gift card. So go to Louis house.com survey to fill it out right now.
Thank you.
There. You have it, my friend. I hope you enjoyed this episode again. So powerful for me to say
Down and connect with Brunei and truly hear her share about all the lessons. She's learned in the stories that she has. I think she's one of the greatest thought leaders of our time or books. I've had a huge impact on me and millions of other people. And if you haven't got her books, make sure to check them out. You can go to our website, follow her brene, Brown everywhere, online, and make sure to share this. With a friend, tag a friend on social media, to listen to this, and make sure to tag me on your Instagram stories.
When you're listening and share this out to your friends as well. If this is your first time here, please subscribe to the podcast over on Apple podcast and leave us a review. We'd love to hear how we can make this better and the content we can continue to bring to you to help you in achieving great things in your life. Again, we are launching our very first documentary. We did a full length documentary with Hollywood filmmakers, make sure to go to Greatness.com, sign up to be notified of when we launched it and also will be
Alive Premiere in person in Los Angeles soon. So sign up there to be notified and will get you information as the documentary and the launch comes out. Again. You can watch the documentary for free just sign up to be notified at greatness.com. Again, dr. Martin Luther, King said, I decided to stick with love-hate, is too great, a burden to bear and me. Lebron said, in order to heal, we must forgive, is sometimes the person we must
forgive is ourselves. I hope you are letting go of the shame that you've faced with your entire life because we can't get rid of it until we start to share it. That's the key. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Big. Thank you again to Brunei and the repost of this episode from a couple years ago. I felt like you had to hear it. So many people hadn't listened to this yet. I want you to make sure you get access to this big. Thank you to her her whole team. And as always, I love
Love you so much. You know what time it is. It's time to go out there and do something great.
