On this episode of the Ben Greenfield Fitness
podcast at some point you are going to need to forgive your debt or who it was that really hurt you but this idea of you know, triggered triggered triggered by news by alert by Instagram and you can't live in that space all that's really actually very brutal on our humanity and we can be driven by it. We can be compelled to try and overcome the uncertainty with even
the way that we're trying to work
out medal performance nutrition longevity ancestral living biohacking and much more. My name is Ben Greenfield. Welcome to the show.
Well, today's podcast is a little different little little more spiritual than some of the previous podcast that I have done of late. But it's with a guy who who's an author whose books and whose meditation platform of actually really been digging lately. So I would be remiss of course not to introduce him to you. So good episode with my friend John Eldridge. Now this podcast is brought to you by something brand new.
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Rule of rewards points in your key on account and plenty more go to get key on.com get ki o and.com and check out the new daily life bundle. This podcast is also brought to you by Juve. I was actually juvenile earlier this morning. I love to do in the winter just because it's so great for those dark gray days when you don't have access to the sunshine, but you want to harness the sunshine in your own home. These are these are red light devices, but they're the best ones these Juve devices produced near infrared and red light therapy.
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Say that I hope will make this podcast even more awesome or for you. You got to bend Greenville fitness.com survey. It's like a three minute survey bang it out super quick. I tried it myself. I think I didn't record time think I finished the survey in like 90 seconds, but I expect you to be far more thorough and thoughtful than me, but you go to been grateful tennis.com survey. It's my sneaky way of just learning more about how I can make this podcast better for you because I want you to be able to give me your input so I can then make this podcast.
Ben Greenfield fitness.com survey don't forget please. It's a service. It's your way of karma. I'm going to shut up. Just go do this for conserve a all right, let's talk to John.
Well folks in a weekly round up a few months ago. I commented about this app that I had been using with my family to take these little brief one to ten minute pauses during the day to connect with our breath and ourselves. And even with God and this app was called the one minute pause app. I I discovered it. I thought it was really cool. My family. Actually the way we started using it was we did the the ten minute meditation every Sunday just together as a family because
During the the covid pandemic lockdown church was canceled for quite some time. And we do a lot of Home Church sessions and would sit and meditate with this app at some point during those sessions and it turns out that the guy who designed this app was kind of the voice of the app. He also has written a few books that I really enjoyed of late particularly books written for for men to become better fathers better leaders better men.
N1 called Wild at Heart and there's another one called fathered by God. That's quite good. He also has a great book for couples Called Love and War and as a matter of fact another fellow who I think is one of my guests understudies Morgan Snyder wrote a great book called becoming a king which was actually quite meaningful for me because as you know, if you've been following my website, I've been publishing quite a bit about about manhood and becoming a better father a better leader a better King. Should you be a
A mother or a wife or a woman listening in today's show don't turn it off because we are actually going to be talking about couples and relationships as well. This is not just going to be a dude's show. So anyways, my guest on today's show is John Eldridge. He's an author. He's a counselor. He's a teacher. He's the president of a company called Ransom Heart, which is a Ministry that helps people discover the heart of God and his books are absolutely fantastic as is his app.
I'll link to everything that we talked about in the show notes. If you go to Ben Greenfield fitness.com Wild at Heart that's Ben. Greenfield tennis dot-coms Wild at Heart John. Welcome to the
show. Thank you been great to be with you really honored to be on your show and really looking forward to this conversation.
Yeah. I'm stoked to have you on I actually got to ask you because you know, I think especially for many people the idea.
Of a meditation app that's more of like a like a christian-based meditation app seems kind of weird. It seems as though meditation is often associated with Buddhism or more Eastern mysticism or Eastern religions, and I'm curious, you know for you how you came to discover meditation and what your unique flavor of meditation is in this app because I think it's really interesting. Well the
simple story is I got fried. I mean I hi live in a digital space like most
People have to and in the modern world and while I love nature and I love outdoors and I love getting out to get renewed. It was the combination of Crazy Life way too much media way too much news. I got fried and I sort of looking for ways to get out of the madness like literally taking my attention back really felt like the war was for my attention, you know, click on this look at this watch.
Is and so the idea of meditation is really just what has captured your attention. And so for me it just began with some practices of letting things go like releasing the crazy letting the world go letting all the heartache go and then for me because I'm a man of faith God I give you my attention again. I just want to settle down get quiet and just give you my attention and
This is actually for for followers of Christ. This is all through the scriptures Isaiah says that you will keep in perfect. Peace. The person whose mind is set on you. So things like that like letting the peace come back and getting centered again was was a huge rescue for me.
Yeah and what I love about it is it's so quick, you know, and obviously you don't have to have an app to do something like this, but for
Some reason being able to pull out the app and just press the pause. And then also if you have a little bit more time being able to choose a slightly longer meditation, I think it's useful, you know, you car even talks about in that book how neuroscientists and cycle or or psychologist there. They're finding out that you know, the plasticity of the brain dictates that we're so malleable at the cellular level that if we're spending a lot of our time surfing or skimming or scanning. We actually become more Adept at that mode of thinking and that this
Idea of Simply being able to step away and take a breath, you know, one minute seems silly but even something that short seems to make a profound
difference. It was shocking for me actually what a difference it did make and it began for me actually at the end of the day I pull in my driveway and you know just cooked from the day your spun up your thinking about emails. You still need to answer your thinking about stuff you heard on the news. You need just conversations. You need to have or you
Fix and I pull in the driveway the end of the day and I would just lay my head down on my steering wheel turn the engine off. Don't get out of my car. Just sit there and I would practice something we'll probably get into which is benevolent Detachment. Just let it go let it go and one minute and that the experience was so incredibly refreshing for me that I had to build the app and put
It in the book and tell other people about
it. Yeah, I mean that that that's that's a whole like ancestral mechanism that people get into how our brains are hard-wired just I just read a whole book about this called driven specifically about how you know, folks like Navy Seals for example specialized especially in this concept of being able to identify danger and be able to stay in a hyper alert sympathetically driven mode in response to danger, but the fact is that our bodies often or a brains more specifically often don't
Now whether the danger is some impending lion coming to eat us or simply a disturbing email that popped out from our computer inbox, but respond similarly,
right? And when you live in a world like that, we keep the World Keeps Us in hyper-vigilance. This is part of the problem and super destructive on our health course, but but this idea of you know, triggered triggered triggered triggered by news by alert by Instagram, but you know,
And you can't live in that space that is grew total on the human soul. And as a therapist for years, you know, I'm very concerned about the Body Soul connection and we've got to bring all that back down. We we got it. We got to have some point in our day where we let it all
go. Now you you have a new book that book get your life back and admittedly. I haven't read get your life back yet. But from what I understand that book is kind of centered around this concept of
Lint Detachment or being able to practice during the day having these little pauses where we truly let it all go with a breath with something like turning over our worries to God. Is that the general thesis of the
book? Yeah. Exactly. The subtitle is everyday practices for a world gone mad. So we're assuming the crazy that most people are living in and I'm looking for I'm looking for very simple things we can do during the day.
Day anybody's life. This can still work. You don't have to be a monk. You don't have to you know, move to the south sea Islands like you can do this in a real-life learning to take the one minute pause learning benevolent attachment learning release and then a number of other practices in the book about the power of the healing power of Beauty for example, and simple ways to minimize your technology that that all together build for a really restorative.
Does that makes me feel really good considering right now? I'm staring off into the forest. I had we built our house. I purposefully had the architect put a giant window right where I knew I'd have my computer so I could I could be looking out the window at the trees while I'm working and it's it's an absolute Game
Changer. This is so wonderful because it's free. It's beauty is free and it's all around us and and here's a fascinating thing been that research that shows that people in hospital recover.
Were faster need less pain medication and they're released sooner if they simply have a window that looks on nature that the healing power of beauty to the human heart the human mind the human soul and the human body is so wonderful and it's all around us. I'm just trying to help people pause and let it in, you know the rain on the city streets at night sound of the birds in the morning the way the sunlight.
It's coming through your kitchen window. You just pause let Beauty heal your soul in the midst of a pretty wired
world. Yeah, do you remember Tate for a longer period of time than say like a minute or 10
minutes? Oh, yes, of course. Yeah. In fact when we built the app, my colleagues were urging us to hey do a three-minute do a five-minute do a 10-minute version and I'm like nobody's going to use the 10. I'm trying to convince people to stop for 60 seconds, and it's
Sounds like a really big ask so but during the pandemic here is the fascinating thing is the use of the 10 minute pause was the second. Most popular was the second most popular feature in the app that people really found that 10 minutes was rescuing them. So I was super encouraged by that but yes, like my morning thing is is a morning walk. Hi with the dogs and when I get in nature and I get in the woods, I've got time there to slow down.
Let It Go and just begin to tune back into Beauty presence of God with my own soul needs and so that yeah, sometimes those are much longer than 10
minutes. Oh, yeah, I totally hear I've been walking so much what you because I kind of hung up my racing hat last year because I was competing heavily in Triathlon and Spartan Racing all the way up until last year and as soon as I quit that and replace most of my runtime with walk time, it's just a game.
Game Changer because you're able to meditate and enjoy nature and Beauty your own breath dwell with your thoughts a little bit more intensively when you're walking versus running and I'm nearly I'm nearly addicted to walking. I'll probably walk like five to seven miles a day and right now, you know a week from now, I'm headed off to New Mexico for an elk hunt So lately I've still been walking with the pretty heavy pack on which is slightly distracting yet. I have found walking to be probably one of the more kind of
Rounding activities in addition to meditation breathwork and sauna, that's just integral to my daily routine.
I really love to hear that especially from you of all people because I was a runner too. Yep, and I actually gave it up because it was just more of my driven asst and that's not true for everybody. You know, I've got friends who run and for them. It's absolutely life-giving and and they find everything we're describing in it. They find the beauty they find the sole care they find God.
But I stopped because I just needed to slow everything down. My life's too fast. The world's too fast and it's a fascinating thing to point out. By the way that the average pace of human life for thousands of years was three miles an hour. Okay, like just to compare it to our modern moment. We miles an hour was how everybody moved because everybody walk somewhere and I love it that you found that the joy in that as well.
And a lot of people they run simply because of of what Forward Motion can do to you, you know, dr. Andrew huberman who's a neuroscientist at Stanford really cool guy. He's a friend of mine and he's actually studied and found that forward movement or forward progress, whether it's riding a bike or whether it's running or whether it's walking or anything that's convincing your brain that you're progressing forward. It's actually a pretty cool remedy for fear or stress or anxiety or depression because you literally suppress
the the section of the amygdala responsible for those hardwired responses and you secrete dopamine when you're stepping forward and a lot of people think you have to run to do that but something as simple as walking achieves that same forward action that literally suppresses the amygdalas activation of fear and stress and anxiety and a lot of these built-in things that when we're not making forward progress, we feel more intensively. So I think there's something going on there from a neuroscientific standpoint as well. Just the forward motion of
walking and the other thing that
Dress has
been we are addicted to officiants D, you know and you hear people use the phrase, for example, I got to fit a workout in I got to get it in in other words. It's something to be jammed into an already full day and walking is so countercultural because we're not striving to accomplish one more thing. It's really it's really quite beautiful in the way that it just slows you down.
Down out of The Madness of the world and out of that need to be efficient the need to be performing the need for everything, you know to be over the top which I think is also driven by the massive amount of uncertainty in the world right now. We you know, we're being kept in a constant state of uncertainty, you know, the economy is uncertain politics are uncertain, you know school is uncertain all that's really actually very brutal on our
Manatee and we can be driven by we can be compelled to try and overcome the uncertainty with even the way that we're trying to work
out. Yeah. It kind of makes me think that perhaps walking backwards my produce the opposite response though. So be careful people which direction that you walk it needs to be forward progress that that that's that's actually interesting what you say about fear of the unknown John because I went down and did this kokoro training camp in Encinitas where they it's kind of like Navy SEAL.
A week for civilians where they put you through everything you do during hell week, except like, you know the guns and the boats and one thing that they do there is they make sure that you don't know what's coming at any given point. You don't know what the next say evolution is going to be whether it's a 26-mile night hike or a beat down with burpees or going to you know, just freeze your butt off in the Pacific Ocean for four hours at a time and it's very interesting because if you know everything that's coming ahead if you know, let's say the next exercise in your
Gout or the how long you need to be in a cold tub or anything like that. It's very simple to do like you can wrap your head around and get through just fine. As soon as you introduce the unknown. I don't know what aspect of this workout is coming next or I don't know what part of this this this Beatdown is going to involve how many burpees I have to do. I'm just going to go until they tell me I stopped and I'm going to be an hour or three hours, you know down there they call it mind effing where they're just like playing with your brain. They do the same thing in the seals. It does create mental resilience, but at the same time that
fear of the unknown that fear of uncertainty that unsettling sense that you don't know what's coming next is extremely extremely stressful and it's interesting because one of the things that they taught us at that camp was when you're in that time return to your breath return to your breath returning a whether it's box breathing or that deep nasal breath in and the exhale out it really centers, you know, bring us full circle this concept of meditation and forward progress being very well-suited, especially
The times that we're in right now and right now your website is called Wild at Heart Wild at Heart. It's a wild at heart.org for anybody who wants to go to explore John's podcast and his books. It's an excellent website really great blog as well. But the the the question I want to ask you is it was Wild at Heart? Why what's that title mean exactly.
There is something very deep in the heart of little boys if you watch what they love if you
You invite them into it bencher little boys are not wired to sit still for 8 hours a day. And there's something wild in a goodness in them. Now. Obviously, there's things that need to be parented and you know shepherded and guided into healthy expressions of wildness. But while the car came out of what I think is deep in the heart of the masculine soul and and has been stolen
And in the world, you know the world sets out to kind of strip men of wildness and wire little boys drugged in, you know school systems recommend, you know medication for boys three times the rate of girls. Why is that, you know, it's because there is a wildness their inherent to our design. It's actually meant to be really good its risk-taking. It's daring its courage, you know, it's all the stuff you've been doing.
Doing and living for and then that became the book and that became kind of the centerpiece of what we do
and you actually you tie that into a question. You say all men carry this this question inside of them. I thought that was really interesting section of the but what can you can you unpack that with that question is that you think all guys have that's like this uniquely masculine question.
Yeah again, I if you if you look at the need of little boys, you know, he gets the bike he learns to ride and then he wants to he wants to ride with no hands and he gets the trampoline and then
Two pounds, but then he wants to do flips. Like we there's this question this pushing this need for validation the coordinator the masculine soul. And the question is do I have what it takes do I have what it takes and it's a question that is actually so formational and voice like that. If it doesn't get answered. Well, it shapes him into the man that he's become today. So if he's over the top and driven and you
No, super controlling he doesn't know he has what it takes but he's domineering he's trying to prove that he has what it takes, you know way too much time at work etc. Or it may go the other direction. He may go passive. He may go silent. He might not take the promotion. He might not you know, take the invitation to go with the guys on a road trip because he doesn't know that he has what it takes. So, you know, you may retrieve he may go passive you can see that shaping the lives.
It's of men today and it's such a core need in a boy's life and it was primarily meant to come from his father the boy. He looks to his father for love and validation. Dad. Do I have what it takes? Did you see the way I did that are you proud of me? And the design was that over the course of his life the father would take his son through a number of experiences where he discovers? Hey, I do have what it takes and it builds.
A resiliency, it builds a courage. It builds a settled mess so that when he does enter, you know, the great challenges of his adult life. He knows who he is as a man.
Do you think that part of that idea of do I have what it takes is related to the right of passage that we see woven into a lot of cultures that is uniquely absent a lot of times in in Western culture, but this idea
That at some point during adolescence or the passage into adulthood a boy is given the chance to kind of prove. So to speak that they actually do have what it takes to become a man. Like what's your take on the whole Rites of Passage thing?
There's two ways to think about this our initiation Journeys that most cultures embraced for thousands of years prior to the Industrial Revolution. And then there was kind of what we might call like blessing ceremonies, you know the bar.
By the the ritual of becoming a young man one is a process. The other is a moment a celebration and both are needed. You know, it's not enough to just say to a young man. You're amazing. We're proud of you. You have what it takes. He has to discover for himself in this begins somewhere in early adolescence right around 12 13 years old you are going to see this come screaming to the Forefront of the boys need he wants.
Our adventures he wants bigger challenges. And again this expresses itself in a lot of different ways, you know for one boy who needs to climb a mountain for another boy. He needs to learn how to navigate the Subways in New York, you know, so if he's raised in the country and he's good with Machinery that's not his Frontier. He needs a different Frontier if he's raised in the city and he has never driven a tractor or an ATV, you know, then that is his Frontier and he needs to go do that but yes the loss of the initiation rituals that take
Take a boy through a series. I call this the cowboy stage when we get to talk about father by God. Hey, I call this the cowboy stage because in the teenage years the young man needs hard work and he needs Adventures because both things call him out that their challenges. They strengthen him and it is building a Bedrock conviction in him that I can handle my
I can handle life. Hmm.
And it does that have anything to do with the poser that you talk about in the book because you discuss like this false self and I'm curious if you explain what the poser is and where that kind of comes into the
picture. Yep. Yep. Yep, because again most men as boys do not get their core question answered very well either their dad was just gone. He just worked or or maybe he divorced and and left the family so
He was absent or he was emotionally absent he might been physically present but he was emotionally checked out or worse. They were physically abused sexually abused by their dad's or by the men in their life. So the core question does not get a healthy robust answer they end up with a very deep wounded soul and a very deep doubt that they are a man. And so then the way they handle it is one of two directions, they either go over the top or they go
Asset so they become the guy, you know at the truck with the huge tires, or he's got the you know, the six-figure income and he's on his third wife and he's trying to prove something to the world but you get around those guys and it feels over the top. You know, it's like a little too much a little too many tattoos a little too much leather, you know, or you get the guy who's full-on checked out and he's just he's silent. He's not present. He's passing he won't take the promotion he
Won't he won't take the risk of starting his own business. He he he just won't risk it. So those two kind of those are extremes, but you can see men fall into those two things and they're posing the poser is basically built to do this. It's to protect you from any form of exposure or people would find out he's not the real deal, but it's also designed the poser is also designed to get you a
Bit of the validation that you were meant to have and so, you know, like if you're a phenomenal athlete, you know, you're killing it there, but it but that guy may not know how to talk to his 16 year old daughter. And so it's not it's not a strength that extends through his whole life and what we're after is wholehearted masculinity for a man can be both tender and strong there are moments where he can taking normos risk, but he also has the
Wisdom to know there are moments that you don't do that.
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Now when it comes to kind of getting over that syndrome of being a poser, you know, because I think a lot of men walk around feeling like they need to feign strength and courage hide cowardice and fear and have almost as faults else or false self or false identity. I mean, I tend to think a big part of that is related to being able to go through rite of passage and you're a boy so you don't spend the rest of your life trying to prove to the world that you're a man, but what
Or take on the best way to kind of overcome this this poser syndrome so to
speak.
Well, let's start. Let's start with the man because you know, you get all these guys are going. Yep. I hear you and I can't go back to h13 and do a rite of passage. The thing is first to get honest with the ways that you're faking it weighs you're faking involvement or faking a strength or your your either over the top or your checked out like just get honest about the poser and begin to choose.
Otherwise begin to cheat like I just I was a guy because I grew up in an alcoholic home and my father wounded me terribly. I was dad was a driven driven driven guy, you know 4.0 student and put all of that was will you like me? Will you like me? Will you like me and I always had to be like the guy who was like hmm, and and I just began to back away when I saw the poster as a grown man. I didn't discover any of this.
My own life until I was in my 30s has a grown man. I just began to choose against that go. You know, I'm really faking it. Why am I faking it? I don't want to fake it anymore. So you begin to choose away from the poser you lay down the pieces of the false self that you can but then you've also got to deal still with the core question. And the core question. Do I have what it takes? You still need an answer to that and in healthy ways and
And by the way, this is a fascinating thing. But this is actually the key to pornography pornography has nothing to do with sex that it has to do with the search for validation. The man really? Yeah, the man feels like a man for a long he feels alive that wild heart gets to feel alive for a moment.
Really you don't you don't think it's due to like the dopaminergic response to to just being able to have unfettered access to a wide variety of potential.
Mates and that that whole I think it's the website your brain on porn.com that kind of lays things out that way that's like this this ancestral or evolutionary neurotransmitter hardwired response that we're simply not kind of equipped to be able to deal with mentally without just going into neurotransmitter overdrive in you don't think it's related to like a dopaminergic
response. Well, of course, of course, but gang we're not just bodies.
Poor souls. Hmm. We are human beings. You also eat of a personality. You have a mind you have a heart that goes beyond your neurochemistry. We do not want to reduce human beings to hormonal impulses. You never want to do that. You never want to take away what Pascal called the Dignity of causation human beings are phenomenal phenomenal creatures.
With creativity and capacities and courage and suffering and we don't want to reduce that to neurochemistry. So yes, of course, you know, it was William Blake who said the naked woman's body is too much of Eternity for the eye of man to be old. Yes, Beauty causes chemical reactions, of course, it's like whoa, but you've got to go back to the search for validation and some of the core things that drive men for one thing to
The Dignity of causation to have guy. So what I would say is you have to deal with your father. Would you have you know, 30 years of being a therapist? I guarantee it you how your parents father and mother handled your wild heart as a boy because we're kind of focused on boys right now and in the wounds that you receive in your childhood have shaped you into the person that you are today what you were shamed for what we were rewarded.
And for you know, all that not only do you have to lay the poser down, but you also have to begin to deal with that stuff so that you can become more full-hearted.
How do you actually get over the father wound piece?
Have we can we can we do a three-part series on
this? There's always that one of those how much time you got
questions. Okay. Well, of course it is, of course it is because we're talking about people's stories. Your life is a story and you're everyone's story is very complex and beautiful but also filled with suffering so it's just I can't I can't just give you a quick answer but I will give you I'll give you a listeners a little bit of direction at some point.
Are going to need to forgive your debt or your mom or who it was that that really broke her heart that really hurt. You can't you know first girlfriends and all that stuff forgiveness is a enormous lie. He'll it's incredibly powerful and it enables you to move beyond the womb and it was only when I began to realize that my alcoholic father also had an alcoholic father.
That I began to see his life with compassion instead of Anger of just angry at it and I was able to see him as a broken human being as well in forgiving him was an enormous part of the healing
process. Now, what about this concept of having another father and plays? Like I think it was in your book that I discovered this that that no matter how bad or how disconnected or how distant or even how poor relationship you had with your father that we always have the
This father at hand in the form of God a great father great creator that we can we can turn to and depend upon Our Father even when a father is
absent. Not only that I can see I you know, I always thought yeah, right some people get great dads some some daughters have wonderful relationships with their dads and then the rest of us. Well, you know, you drew the be card so you get gone. That's not a
actually how the universe is designed. God was always Meant To Be Our Father mean he's always to be the source of love and security and I would add validation and delight and so yes that the good news of the Christian faith is that you have a loving father who cares very much about the wounds that you've taken who knows the struggle of your body and can bring the validation.
And back to the The Rite of Passage and can bring still be initiation that you need. So I'm a suburbs guy. And and I love I love the mountains. I do all the things for Joy take me to the mountains, you know flight. Where do you live by the way? I live in Colorado, Colorado Springs,
Colorado. Yeah. Well you got access to mountains.
Yep. Yeah. So you were talking about elkon I drew and I drew a great help archery tag, and I'm going out.
For archery out next week. However, I don't live in that world. I live in the normal. I cannot have an office. I work on a computer most of the day. I do, you know Skype and zoom and slack and all that stuff and there's a lot of me because of my alcoholic dad and all of that. There's a lot in me as a man that didn't get some of the initiation I needed. So this weekend we've got some a little bit of acreage and I had one of our if you've got one of those small farm tractors that just let you move dirt around.
Round and it had a flat tire. I don't know fix a flat tire on a tractor, but I took two hours to just settle down and do it and figure it out. It's very frustrating at first. It was very rewarding at the end. And the reason I'm telling this story is most men are misinterpreting the hassles in their life. We look at hassles as abandonment like come on God. Where are you? Good grief, when what he's doing is the initiation process.
Cells that would miss is initiating us through hardship. How do you shape boys into men largely through hardship.
Now this idea of hardship is kind of related to what you get into in the rest of the book where you talk about how men have three core desires battle adventure and Beauty which you alluded to earlier and what would you would you say that that kind of immersing oneself or making sure that that we as men or you know as
As a woman who's with a man or raising a boy. One of the best things that we could do is to actually ensure that we are engaged in those three aspects like like battle or fighting and whether it's let's say Jiu-Jitsu or noon ball at the gym with basketball or Tennis League or something like that Adventure in terms of maybe taking up hunting or occasionally going in like some kind of a, you know, a quarterly challenge that might be kind of scary like, you know, maybe a you know, whatever Triathlon or
Adventure racer and obstacle course race and maybe the beauty peace is just you know, walking in nature or something else like you've just described or music or art or story or any of these things. Would you say that those three things woven into a man's life is what would actually help when it comes to to growing as a man to surround yourself with battle an adventure and Beauty.
Yeah. You just did a beautiful summer I can just go. Yeah now that was really good.
Okay, good. I'm hired, but you
You actually you know, what I find fascinating is because you know, I've read a book like what is it king warrior magician lover which is an interesting way to layout the phases of a man's life. But I almost liked your approach better in your book that was kind of related to what we're talking about right now called learning what your dad could never teach you fathered by God, you actually have six different stages of manhood that you get into there. And I think it would be super interesting for folks. If you could just kind of kind of briefly walk us through each of those phases.
Is and what they are because I feel like I'm you know, maybe somewhere in between Like a Warrior and a king stage right now this phase of my life, but can you can you detail what those are for people?
Yeah. And again, I'd love to do that. The goal is wholeheartedness. So when you hear these stages and you go, oh my God, like I never got any of that. I'm hosed know all of this can still come to you if you are 30 60 or 90 like that wholeheartedly.
This is still available. So as you listen to these stages you go. Yeah, did I get that? I mean, I think I need some more of that. So you begin with what I call the beloved Son the stage of Boyhood is a stage where you need to know that you are the apple of your father's eye it before the question of do I have what it takes? The core need of the boy is actually love is the core need of every human being but but there's a sense of I am the
It's Sun. So there's story time there's wrestling there's Nerf gun wars. There's Legos there. You know, I have my father's Delight my father loves to spend time with me and that builds a foundation of security because if you are rooted and grounded in love, then when the hardship comes and when the training comes and the difficulty comes it doesn't feel like abandonment. Okay, so beloved Son the first
stage, okay, and just just said to jump in.
Real quick. Would you say then that that if if a father's listening in you know for me as a father one of the best things that I could do, then is ensure that my my son is seen that there noticed that their love like boys want to be seen essentially is the way that would that would that would
look yes well for who they are and this is very important because we were talking when you were summarizing badly Adventure Beauty I want to add but tailor it to the uniqueness of the boy because one boys Venture would terrify another Ploy, you know some
Is a wire to you know, get on dirt bikes and go race around and put it for another boy. What he needs to do is travel and and go see London or experience, you know, so all of this is tailored to the boy, but you have my delight you have my time you have my affection that is Boyhood and it allows for a time of curiosity and a Time of Wonder. I'll move for the stages pretty quickly. And then if we want to unpack then we can around the time of adolescents exactly when
You were describing the need for initiation is what I call the cowboy stage and I don't mean by that got to go get a horse what I mean is that the need for higher levels of Adventure and for hard work really began to kick in now. I think the little boy needs to clean his room. I don't think you re spoiled brats, you know, I think he does part of the family chores, but it's fascinating to see around the age of 12 or 13 the boy the
Do I have what it takes starts screaming and he knows he needs an answer. And so, you know, he tries out for the team or this is when he goes on it on his first trip and maybe he travels by himself to go, you know see an aunt or an uncle or he goes on a you know, a semester abroad which you know, which is fabulous types of ways of initiating boys. It's out of your comfort zone. It's risk-taking and it's discovering. Well, I can handle that.
I can handle life. I have what it takes. And so the cowboy stage goes from about 13 to about 18 and I do think it's very physical boys are physically wired now, even if they're they're not you know, what we have now is the whole video age, right and he's going to say no. No, I don't want to go right mountain bike. So I want to play video games. Don't take the video games away. You don't want to make that your War but
you do need to insist that they are involved in what I would call reality real things dig a hole fix a fence paint the house, you know, learn how to change the oil in your car like doing real things is so essential for boys becoming men and not just giving digital things. So that's the steam to the Cowboy and it is it is I think we're Vision quests and Rites of Passage in those things take place in the
Mascara makes sense
around the age of eighteen nineteen two phases begin to come in and these next two stages are overlapped Warrior and the lover but I would put the warrior first and there's a reason why the man needs a mission a man. This is the this is the whole thing on strength and validation. The guys got to have purpose, you know, the reason men die after they retire as they feel like they've lost the purpose of their
Life, but it's not true. But you can feel like it because men are so wired to come through men are made to come through the made to do stuff make a difference in the world start a company teach English right fight for you know human rights, you know, dig Wells whatever. It is men are made to come through and so the stage of the warrior is the stage where he really begins to take on much more serious.
Battles my youngest son right now is in grad school. It takes a lot of warrior to get through grad school or med school, you know for some guys to just finish High School takes a lot of lawyer, you know takes perseverance and strength and grits and and overcoming fear the facing dangers and facing the battles of your life. So the Warrior Stage kicks in now and it's very interesting that all through cultures. This is pretty much the stage even here in the US.
Is that men go off to war that's not a mistake. It's just down through history kind of recognize he's ready for that. But it's also the stage of the lover in you know, this is when in his 20s the young guys probably going to fall he's going to fall in love pretty hard now. Yes, there's you know, the junior high romances and that sort of thing, but I'm talking, you know, he wants to marry will start a family wants to find that the partner of his life and it's important that the warrior transition.
Me a little bit of warrior training comes first because when you get into a relationship, it takes enormous courage to love. Are you kidding me? The number of guys military guys that I counsel. I've you know full on Navy Seals who are scared of their wives and this guy he will do anything, you know, he'll walk into a terrorist help building but to talk to his wife is terrifying.
Me and the reason is that love gives so extraordinary vulnerable, you know, yeah and to break a man's leg because anything like breaking his heart right line from Seabiscuit. And so it'd be good if there's a little bit of warrior in him and encouragement and we're trained before he gets into it, you know bus serious relationship with his life, but the lover comes along and the lover is not just about the woman and that's that's that's why I really like the
You summarize the beauty. It's the Awakening of the heart. The man's going to discover that there is a world of beauty. He suddenly discovers classical music or he begins to write poetry starts journaling. He loves being a horse. He discovers, you know, it's a love of sailing or he gets on his road bike in the morning. He just rides for an hour because he just loves the cornfields and its beauty comes into his life love comes in high from it.
Okay, the that's a good that's a good clear.
Application to because you know, a lot of people riding their bikes for the cornfields. It is an escape. It is trying to prove to the world so they can be ready for their next, you know race to prove to the world that their man. It's go go go and it's never actually stopping to smell the roses during that ride. So I think that's that's one thing that I should be aware of as they can weave Beauty into your daily practice. That's certainly something. I wish I'd have learned to do earlier in my life. And then you know, what else is interesting is you talked about how it's important that a man may be be out of
Definitely had a cowboy phase and hopefully a warrior phase by the time that they are learning to be a lover perhaps entering into a partnership with a wife for example, and I think that's one thing that I certainly did differently like I married my wife and they went into Warrior Stage like after we got married. I started competing and all these races and traveling all over the globe and trying to prove to the world that I was a man while also trying to love my family and love my wife and I spent probably like
gosh, I mean like this is embarrassing to admit but it was probably like the first 12 years of our marriage just kind of spinning my wheels because I was still out there being a warrior and was not laying the foundation for my family also being a lover and you know for my own boys, I'm really committed to not only a really solid rite of passage for them and being present as a father and seeing them in their own unique way as we discussed but also training them
And allowing them to really get the Cowboy and the Warrior face is kind of out of their system. So to speak before they begin to build a family because I think that the the the the order of these phases is actually pretty
important. Yeah. It really is been you and me both. I really hurt my wife in the early years of our marriage because I didn't have an answer to my question and so I went out into the world to find one and
For me it was work, you know and I wound up in DC and was trying to prove myself and and working late hours and weekends and chasing an answer to a question and and leaving a lot of her time had just left her alone and mint remember woman's worst fear is being left out Left Behind rejected betrayed. So Warrior, you know Cowboy Warrior, please hopefully before lover now. It doesn't all get done it like I was saying you could be
You know 70 and you go. Oh man, I need to go back and get some more Cowboy stage in me. And that's a good thing to do for a wholeheartedness. So Cowboy Warrior lover and then around the 40s. You are ready to become a king and the king is entrusted with a kingdom. And so he might speak on the coach of a team. You might become the head of a small business. He's a professor and he has a class or multiple classes every year.
Are he has influence and power over others? And this is the key question. So to go back to the initiation rituals the whole question of human cultures all through history. Is this when can you trust a man with power?
Because if what you have is a boy in a man's body and you give him leadership or you know loads of money or influence. He's going to blow it up. He's going he's going to wound the people under him because he's a boy and not a man what he's going to do and you can just look at this. You can go if he wasn't a beloved Son he starts buying all the toys and he's got the jet boat and all that, you know, well or if he wasn't the Lover now, it's the trophy wife.
Wife and he abandons, you know the girls youth and he goes and chases, you know, somebody 20 years younger and you can see this if he wasn't the warrior and now he's got power and influence now, he dominates you know, because he's looking for a sense of strength and you go you don't get it pal. You become a king to serve and and you are entrusted with power and influence on behalf of others. And so the king stage requires when can you interpret?
Us to mount with power is the question of the world and the answer is only when he's been initiated.
Yeah. So so what you're saying is a good King has been through the Boyhood Cowboy Warrior and lover stages has hopefully also based on the advice that you've given in Wild at Heart Express forgiveness towards any father wounds that might be present in his path and is then fully equipped to be to be a leader which is
I would consider to be synonymous with with a king and at that at that point, you know, I like to think of it as not just being a good lover but being a father being a leader of the household being a rock being a foundation and being ultimately someone who is who's not out, you know, chasing dragon slaying dragons fighting battle so much anymore, but who is actually doing things like being at home building a legacy building a foundation keeping the family put together training that you know,
Prince has to go out and conquer the world of the princesses, you know, whatever the case may be. But that's kind of the phase that I feel like I'm in right now is is this King phase which has been weird for me because it's a less than graceful transition from the Warrior face. I can tell you that it's super hard for me to wake up in the morning and not feel like I'm preparing myself to go to battle and some kind of erase and instead accept that I can just you know, teach my boys to meditate and to sit on the front porch and study God's word or to take them on my workout with
Me, you know despite how annoying that sometimes is or how much of a sacrifice it feels like because I'm not trained to be a warrior anymore. I'm instead preparing them for that phase. Well, I'm shifting into the king phase.
Yep. It takes a lot of Grace which is why you don't see a lot of good kings that the heartache of the earth is there are a lot of bad kings. Yeah, you're in the face. I would say through your 40s and 50s somewhere around 60.
You are invited to climb. It's a enter the final stage, which is the sage and this is just as awkward as the transition from Warrior to King because at some point the king is got to turn the wheel over to a younger King. And so, you know, it's time it's time to let the Young Bucks and the company have more say more decision-making power its you know, you move into a
The stage where you are the counselor, you are the advisor. You are the mentor and you are spending most of your time your free time. Now, you know, you may still have a career you may still be doing all kinds of Adventures, but you spend your time investing in younger men and women in this is the tragedy of our world right now is where's the gray hair?
It's a hospice John. It's hidden away. We don't really honor our elders in our society much at all anymore G is even the
Of I think this is even fascinating even even our mothers, you know, it's perhaps a little bit of a disconnect from from looking at the fathers and the men as sages as they grow old but we know that in societies where postmenopausal women would normally die slightly earlier because of the kind of the built in genetics of well, you're not useful for making babies anymore. So nature is now going to slowly allow you to die. But yet in in this whole Realm of the so-called grandmother hypothesis where
women are given an honored position of being a matriarchal Storyteller passing on wisdom to Future Generations. We see that all of the the Steep decline in mortality in the postmenopausal state seems to disappear because those women are suddenly given a place of position and honor and meaning and purpose and in there matriarchal roll and you know, it seems that the patriarchal role would be this this Sage that you described this ability to be a mentor to pass on stories to the youth to not be you know,
The dad he go visit in the nursing home, but instead perhaps the you know, the father who living with you and your household or someone you see frequently who's turned to as the ultimate source of wisdom besides God because they actually have amassed all of these Amazing Stories and lessons that they can share that it seems like older men are just not given the ability to do much more these days
exactly exactly Bingo. Yeah. I love what you said about women to because it's true.
It's you've paid the price you've lived through all of your foods and now you have the wisdom and the kindness and the mercy that younger parents don't have to mentor and love and Shepherd your kids your grandkids and everyone else that that you can bring your bring your grace to it's actually a very beautiful stage of life and a very rewarding stage because the law
Is this you know for the king who's been really driven with his success moving into the sage stage? You feel like all my influence is waning, you know, I'm not that guy anymore I go. No. No, it's just the opposite. Your influence is greatest in the stage of the
sage. Yeah, and I think it's powerful to especially for men like, you know, many of my listeners for example who might be physically fit but someday are going to be old and wrinkled with low bone density and maybe stronger than
The average old man, but still the physical body the flesh will fade away and yet when it comes to the to the mind and the soul and the ability to be able to pass on these stories. I mean, you know, if you look at it as being a sage or being, you know, perhaps a wizard if you're going to use some other stages of life, I think that's a very powerful phase of life to be and and I certainly find myself even now at 38 years old just thinking ahead with excitedness to the days when I can mentor others and and you know live not
Sir live vicariously through all these amazing young men who I know I'll be surrounded by but at least be able to influence them in to Mentor them and hopefully pass on some of my wisdom. I'm actually very much relishing and looking forward to the ability to be able to be that sage. And for those of you listening in by the way, if you go to Ben Greenfield fitness.com Wild at Heart I'm going to link to all of John's books including this this book father by God in which he really unpacks these the six phases quite nicely and
And you know we touched on the matriarchal role there for just a moment John but as I briefly mentioned in the introduction, you wrote a book on on relationships Called Love and War which he co-authored with your wife. And first of all, I'm just curious what that was like writing a book with your wife because I Can Only Imagine
Well, I would I would not recommend it until you've both done some counseling huh? Because you don't want the writing process to be the first time that you're encountering that stuff. But we had it we can we both had and we've both been through personal counseling we both been through marriage counseling before we took on a book on marriage, but just to show you that the guy thing we you know, we would write together on relationships and in love and person.
Appearance and all that, you know good communication and then I kill and I go get on my son's go-kart and I'd ride around the street just because I need a gasoline for a while.
No. No this this this book, you know, I actually haven't read the entire book love and more interestingly. My wife has she got that book and read it as part of a women's group that she was going through. I haven't delved into that one in the same way having a dubbed into your book on the what's the new one?
In which you describe pausing and get your life back. Yeah get your life back. So I haven't yet read the entirety of Love and War but I know a big part of it is teaching how men and women can really grow together spiritually how a husband and wife team for example can grow together and what I actually wanted to ask you was just from a real real practical boots in the street standpoint what your advice would be for couples to grow together because one thing that I've found is that
that especially as a man, I get all these interests like, you know, I'm whatever I might be interested in a new sport like really working on my tennis game and you know joining a tennis club and playing men's league more often or really interested in hunting and going off on multiple hunts per year or even interested in things like, you know, like like plant medicine and going and trying like an Ayahuasca Retreat and things of this nature and yet it seems like many of these things seem to take me away from my wife or seem to be something that
She might not be interested in so it almost feels as though we're growing apart in when I'm engaged in some of these personal Pursuits and while I don't think that it's wrong for a guy to have his own kind of personal hobbies and personal interests. You know, I also really want to highlight the importance of growing together and I'm curious if you give the audience some advice, you know, if they're with their partner how they can actually grow together with their partner as they as they journey through
life. Yeah. I'm going to start with play together.
You got to you got to play and so I don't know what it is for you, but you got to find it and and guys, you know, if you're really single-minded in, you know, your dirt bikes or whatever. You're going to have to find something else. Maybe it's travel and you enjoy that too or you start Road biking together. You know, you take up tennis. You got to play you've got to play together because there's joy and laughter in it. That is just absolute.
The for a marriage you also need to pray together and it's awkward and it's clunky and it but you are stronger together and in especially over the important things of your life big decision selling the house, you know, helping your kids get through college. How much do we do? What do we help? You know, all that stuff kids with learning disabilities or special needs. Hi.
Goodness, pray together. Even if it's two minutes in the morning Lord help us with our day help us with our daughter show us what to do just to do that together.
Yeah, my my wife and I started doing that by the way about three months ago, and it's absolutely amazing and sometimes I'm really tired and she praised her she's really tired and I pray even as our partner is just like literally falling asleep and their eyes are rolling back in their head, but that idea
Praying and we simply the two of us. We keep a shared Google doc on our computer that whenever we ask someone because with increasing frequency when I'm fishing up a dinner party or something like that. I'll just simply turn to the people around me and say hey what-what. Can I pray for you for it's really cool to go around the table and have people share and then I'll go back and I'll transfer those into that Google doc. So I kind of keep them top of mind. So my wife and I always have this list that we can pray for and we don't necessarily pray for everything at the end of the day because you know, if we did we probably up till midnight, but we just
Go through a few of the things that our nearest and dearest to our heart or that we really feel burden to pray together about in the evening and it's actually turned into a really special time together and you know, sometimes will literally fall asleep in each others arms praying which is just absolutely amazing
super romantic. The last thing I'd suggest is read together. We we literally read out loud to one another or such as we will simply read the same book at the same time so we can
Talk about it. So you have an intellectual life and you have an adventure life and you have romance kind of need all of that.
I feel like even though I haven't read all of Love and War that that that my wife and I are doing some of these things we just got done reading together at excellent book. I have you heard Desiring God by John Piper
John. Yeah great. Great. Great. Yeah. Yeah
because both of us really wanted to find more joy
Joy and happiness just in our day-to-day existence and this book was amazing and we simply commit to each other. She's dyslexic dyslexic. And so she got the audio version she listened to it and I read it and what we did at the end of the day each evening because we had a commitment to each other to do one chapter a day is we would simply discuss right before we do that prayer above it. Was there anything interesting like what was your takeaway from Desiring God and now our hearts are more focused on being really good kind of missionary.
In terms of spreading the hope that is within us to others and so we're going through a book on on missions and helping others right now, but it's the same deal. She's listening to it. I'm reading it and it actually really is cool. Not only from an accountability standpoint, but it just feels as though we're more spiritually intertwined and then you know the last part about playing together for us. It's been tennis. I actually I quit the men's league a quit playing times with other guys and just decide you know what I got to make a decision.
Decision, there's only 24 hours in a day. So now my wife and I play tennis once a week together and then we take the kids out and play doubles tennis with the family twice a week. And you know, it seems it seems small it seems try it. But again just for us to be able to go out and hit the ball together and laugh and play it's you know, it makes the relationship at home feel like it's less of you know, just the two of us at work all day long trying to make the household work together and instead just introduces more.
Fun play into our lives. I would say that and then our family game nights. We have these extensive family dinners where we'll sit around playing quibbler and Scrabble and Boggle and Canasta and tens. We have like 10 different games that will pull out and play so we have those family play times together at night and my wife and I realize we like those so much when the boys are gone when their youth group or when they're over night at a friend's house my wife and I still pull out a bunch of board games and we'll have these hour and a half long dinners together. We'll just were just like playing Scrabble. It's amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think yeah tasting our big Scrabble players to it's it's it's good. It's good for the marriage.
Yeah. Yeah. Now I know that the women listening in perhaps didn't get quite as much as the men in terms of a few takeaways from our conversation thus far but I know that one concept that you've explored in another book that you wrote. I don't know if you co-wrote this one with your wife or not, but I think it was called captivating, right?
Yeah, we co-wrote that together.
What does it mean for a woman to be captivating?
Well, it goes back to the core desire. So if a little boys got two core needs I mentioned the need for love to know. He's the Beloved son. And I mentioned the need for validation. Do I have what it takes little girls needs are a little bit different. Yes love absolutely, but I think I would put it as Delight. She wants to be seen and she wants to be delighted in also by that.
Daddy, by the way gender identity is bestowed by the father and then her second coordinate is along the lines of that relational gifting and the fear of Abandonment. It it goes something like will I be chosen will anyone fight for me and and as you Shepherd and parent a resilient daughter's heart, I think they're Wild at Heart to I think they love Adventure. I think they're meant for Mission. I think you know
A day to obviously Love and Enjoy Beauty but there's something very very unique to a young girl's heart and and her development which we unpack in that book captivating.
What what did you mean by that when you said that woman's sexual identity is formed by her father
gender identity gender identity masculinity and femininity psychologically, the impact of the father on the formation of gender identity is absolutely
Massive interesting and so would you say then the the father in the same way that he should be present and see his son for who he is to help his son through that phase of Boyhood and the cowboy hood that you could say something similar for a little girl that it's just as important a little girl be with her with her with her father and seen by her father and recognized by her father as it would be for her to be mentored by her
mother. Yes, right. She learns the name.
Sure of femininity from her mom. She learned the value of it from her death. Hmm interesting,
you know, the last thing that I wanted to mention was I just finished a book like I had mentioned by Morgan Schneider called becoming a king. It was actually really really good and I think it just kind of unpack the entire King phase that fifth flight phase right before the sage that we talked about in a really good way. I just, you know, got a hunting and Wilderness exploration and just being a man and and kind of wove a lot of spiritual.
Concepts in there was he just like a young man who you you mentored how involved were you with with the writing of that
book? Well, his office is next to mine. Okay. Morgan is part of Wild at Heart. He's been with us for more than 20 years. So yeah, he grew up here and he is a phenomenal leader. Now. He's a very good King and in a really good writer. That's a killer book.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was actually
It was really good. I it was one of the few books that I actually listened to my wife tends to listen to books more frequently, but I began to listen a little here and there and I listened to becoming a king and I found it to be one of the few audio books that I could listen to while I was actually working out because it actually had a lot a lot of manhood and toughness kind of woven into it and actually enjoyed listening to a book while I was hitting the weights in the gym. So that that also was an excellent title and I'll recommend it to those of you listening in this book becoming a king along with
Wild at Heart and then fathered by God. Those are the three that I've read like I mentioned I've kind of touched Into Love and War haven't finished it yet. But it appears to be another really good book and then I've got this this other book The the newer title that you have John one more time. What's that one
called? It's your life back every day care practices for a world gone
mad. Yeah, and that one just came out this year. And so I'll link to all these books if you guys are listening in and you go to Ben Greenfield fitness.com Wild at Heart.
If you want to dig into John his podcast his website Wild at Heart and more of what he's done because I've actually found a lot of his wisdom to be especially useful for my own life. And I think you should you should grab that pause app and try it too and I'll link to that too. If you get a been green called fitness.com / Wild at Heart John. This has been really good man. I I truly appreciate your time the books that you've written the I would say you definitely seem to be in a little bit of a sage phase yourself and I appreciate you
being able to mentor and Lead all of my listeners and really good direction on today's
show. It's been an honor Ben. Thanks for having me on
awesome. All right, folks one Ben Greenfield along with John Eldridge signing out from been granted fitness.com have an amazing week. Well, thanks for listening to Today's show. You can grab all the show notes the resources pretty much everything that I mentioned over at Ben Greenfield fitness.com along with plenty of other goodies.
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