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You're listening to the ordinary vegan podcast, where we teach you, everything. You
need to know about adopting, a plant-based diet,
full or
part-time. Our goal is to empower you to live a long and healthy
life. You can find Today's Show at ordinary vegan dotnet or on iTunes. If you have any questions, please send an email to questions at ordinary vegan dotnet. Hello friends and welcome to the ordinary vegan podcast. Number 9.
E2 featuring a very special guest, he is the star of the documentary that has altered people in kitchens all over the world. He is a man who studies books and tireless advocacy, but eating plants has transformed. Countless lives across the globe as you can tell. I'm very excited because it was dr. T. Colin Campbell on me.
May 1st, 2011, that convinced me that animal protein was the cause of chronic disease and it was dr. Campbell who paved the path for my own personal transformation for over 65 years. Dr. T. Colin Campbell has been a courageous truth, seeker and truth-teller in the scientific research and study of nutrition in chronic disease.
If we haven't met, my name is Nancy montori and I am the founder of this podcast in the website, ordinary vegan dotnet.
I am here to serve you and hopefully provide you with all the information. You need to choose a healthy lifestyle that will protect you from chronic disease, and viruses and help you live a long. Happy healthy life. So, when I was exchanging emails with dr. Campbell about, coming on this show, he was signing his emails with his first name. Colin.
I was like, oh my God. Should I call him cone? And then I was like, Nancy. Knock it off. You're getting carried away. Of course. You can't call him calling. I lost my mind there for a second. I was also going to make this interview with dr. Campbell into two podcasts because this podcast is longer than most of my podcasts. But then I decided that this conversation shouldn't be broken up because everything dr. Campbell says is so important.
Ortant, and he tackles a lot of subjects here, including his opinion, about how to protect yourself from covid-19. So here is the dr. T. Colin Campbell interview in its entirety. Hi, dr. Campbell, and thank you so much for being here today. We are so honored. You are here
to pleasure to be here. Yes.
Thank you. I just wanted to ask you some general questions before we talk about everything. You
Done in your career. So we got a lot to talk about. First off. Dr. Campbell you grew up on a dairy farm, milking cows, and eating meat. Then you became a biochemist who was eventually convinced that all animal products are likely to harm our health. Was it in Epiphany moment, or did your studies take a while to convince? Even you? And when did you stop eating meat and Dairy?
Lots of questions. You're correct. I grew up on a Dairy Farmer, then went away to school at Cornell University. Did my doctoral dissertation actually on a project that was designed to increase the production and consumption of protein, which meant high-quality animal-based protein. So I was very much into that. Then I had my first academic position. I had additional responsibilities. That time coordinating.
Project in the Philippines, a national project in Philippines being malnourished children and the thought was for us and for others in the field at that time that the that malnourished children in the world, which was quite a problem was primarily a problem of not having enough protein so our object. Yes, I shared objective. If you will in the Philippines was to figure out a way for
Oh, these children to get the good protein and enough of it, but then I saw something there that was at odds with that.
I was told one day on the golf course, if all things with my couple of friends and medical colleagues who told me they were operating on children for years of Aging, younger for liver cancer. And that was another hat. I was wearing Charter trying to understand what causes liver cancer and that was also a very young age, unbelievable. Actually. I didn't quite believe that but then I saw something in our own database.
Suggested that.
The children coming from the family's getting the most protein were more than likely that wants to get into most liver cancer. Wow. So, Bells went off and I saw article from India sperm, or animal studies, sort of suggesting something similar that higher protein, meant more liver cancer. So I was faced with two pieces of evidence. Neither one of which were terribly convincing, but nonetheless, it was important. I had to pay to get an answer.
That. So I came back home to my laboratory and Virginia, Virginia Tech at the time and got an NIH grant. That was to last for the next 27 years. He kept getting renewed, and so, I probably said a lot from that and the object of it was to see if there's any truth to this idea. That high-protein met more cancer, especially, High animal protein.
And so, we did lots and lots of research. I had a lot of students and postdocs, and other colleagues, and we did a lot of research and published it and sure. Enough, increase in animal protein increases our cancer development, at least for the model we were using. And then I kind of got into more human-oriented studies. And saw what I thought was the same thing. So to answer your question, that one over a period of about, oh God.
From the time, I finished my graduate work, until that time. It must have been 15 years because, you know, I'm driven by science. Basically, I like science is a fantastic thing to hit it. Big involved in I guess and because you really stick with the facts, you create facts, you do that sort of thing. And so finally in the late 1970s. I finished my degree and in 1954 actually six.
T1, and then by 1970 late 70s. No. Actually before that late 60s, early 70s. I was getting an inclination that the high protein feed might actually relate to more cancer. Finally, late 70s. I think it was always telling my wife about this, of course.
And she was interested. We had children's time and she was very much interested in making sure we were fated that she was feeding our children. The right thing. So we started changing our diet. That was an, I'd say about 19. Yes. In the middle to late 70s. Wow, it's been a long time. And finally, became completely convinced, especially after I was also organized a huge base study in China.
It confirmed. What I thought I was saying and so by 1990 we were pretty much there. So that's 30 years ago. Wow,
do you ever slip up and eat a piece of cheese or have an egg?
No, no, not really. I did for a while. I mean, you know, it took by the time we started until we were recently. Complete. Yeah, we treated from time to time. I specially me and I
The last thing that I really gave up more than anything was Dairy, I guess partly because I jump in the dairy farm and I found that little bit hard to contemplate. Yeah, but yeah, so having a bit of cheese now it again, at that time was true.
It was another event. I don't know whether you want me to keep on going. Well,
not, I'm definitely going to ask you some questions about that subject, for sure. II was wondering if you would mind sharing what you eat in a typical day.
Well, whatever, my wife face
me. You're a lucky guy. You got a wife who feeds you? That's good.
She's I mean, she's she took this information and translate it into, you know, good food.
And she's really become excellent over the years and cooks very well. And so we just, I mean, you know, we obviously got used to this kind of food. I mean, it got to the point where, you know, we craved a salad.
I never thought I'd say that but we did. Yeah, I know the feeling just the way it is. I mean, you get used to it and and then you just go over. Well, this is just a pretty good. So, in in the morning, I will have almost every day either some hot oatmeal with fruits on it fruit on it or perhaps it's so cold. Cereal again with fruit. We live in an area in Upstate New York. Where
We take a lot of fruit in this, you pick them kind of places. And so she freezes a lot of fruit to in the winter time for the winter time in the summertime. We fresh fruit, obviously, but so that's breakfast. And lunch is the salad. Pretty much. That's it. I love salads me too. And then in the evening, a number of different issues that she has
All plant based all Whole Food plant-based, and her daughter had published a book or cooking book and also our daughter-in-law. I came Campbell. She has a book out to in fact, both of them had additional, you know, updated versions of it expanded. I guess, you could say. And our daughter-in-law Kim. Campbell. She, she's got a nice job of organizing some cooking classes.
So though there's there's a lot of variety of food here that we can talk about. Obviously.
Well, can I ask you as a founding father of the plant-based movement? Can you share what you think of faux Burgers like beyond meat in the impossible
Burger? Well, my traditional answer is
In some ways, it's a step in the right direction because it cuts down on the consumption of animals, which we don't need to do for sure. So we have that benefit but on one hand, but on the other hand as far as health human health issues, concerned. I'm really concerned. I don't believe that they're going to do much to be honest about it. And that's what a lot of people are interested. In. The reason I say that is because
There are made from products that are extracted from the whole food, like taking a protein out. But there's the that and then they had backstop to like editorial native that. So you don't have to taste maybe and of course, and that sort of thing. So, it's a, it's a bit of a stretch from what nature produces. So I'm not not too excited about those products. But as I say, it become quite popular,
As we all know and and I think it's a it's a crutch beautiful. What we really should do. It's a crutch.
Yes. I agree. Well for someone who's trying to eat plant-based and say they eat it. 80% of the time is 80% good enough for they still opening themselves up to chronic disease.
Well, that's a very good question. I had to
So to give a little precious so that all of us as individuals have heard have different degrees of risk of getting some particular disease. Let's say so we're all individuals that way and so and so all those two especially in Middle to older Ages were usually on a track to getting close to maybe getting one of these so called degenerative diseases like diabetes or heart disease or cancer.
And so forth. So we're vulnerable, some of us more vulnerable than others. And then in that case, 100%, I really think that's it. Stay there because who wants to fool around with taking any chances, on the other hand. Some people are so healthy, you know, all of their lives were in but they're in the minority. I think. I mean something, I'd like to say that make there's pie percent of the people apparently just smoke.
Their lives and
and not get lung cancer. Ports has yeah, but
who's going to Advocate smoking? So I can answer your question. No more specifically, I think 100% is the way to go. But at the same time II don't I don't like to preach or you know, I kind of think pontificate on this subject where you know to make people feel that if they don't go 100% there.
Not really doing it right way. I'd like to say okay, here's the information. And once they get to know the information, it's their choice in a way to go. As far as and I suggest going to hallway because going to whole way. We allow our taste preferences to change, it would become a commentator to it.
Of course, then there's the additional argument for a lot of folks that you see ethical argument.
You know, just simply not participating in killing of animals, of course.
Yes,
so everybody has sort of there.
You know, their arguments and their beliefs, but I think from a scientific point of view. I can't say that every single person has 100% all the time and and they'll be guaranteed. No, no problems or conversely, if people only do 80 and 90 percent, they told that they that's about all they need to do. I can't say that either.
It's just that I know what the science says in size basically says, you know, get let's get close to a hundred percent.
And stay there because we get used to it. Food tastes good Chua. Just about, you know, what we're doing for our environment, for our Society, for animals, for all the rest of
it in your opinion. How soon can someone reap the benefits of a plant-based diet?
Oh, you know what? That's a really good question of where this is not necessarily published in scientific literature, which I'd like to rely on sponsors possible, but we have evidence. Now, there's some sort of unpublished.
That changes occur within 24 hours. Wow, amazing. And it will be specific. If people, you know, let's say with heart disease, my friend dr. Esselstyn, dr. Ornish so that until they they have used paper. And one of the things that I know that they do in our older son, Nelson. He did number these trials and our younger son who calls his book with me. He's a position himself.
They all say this, they say that once you know, which started this business cholesterol would drop like a rock and I was you know, 24 30 hours.
36 hours. And that's that's suggests that things have changed its last obviously and for type 2 diabetes, diabetes who are taking insulin just to give another example. If they switch this whole food plant-based diet, the changes kick in so fast that were they not to be careful and they're still taking their drugs. They can go into hypoglycemic shock. In other words, the blood sugar very dry.
Ops 2 like a rock.
And so, from those experiences and some others, I also, in the laboratory. We did this year. Gosh, 30 years ago. I could see in that case, more than that, for forty years ago, forty, thirty years ago. I saw, when you change the diet, in this case of experimental animals. What happens is they respond within, as I say, 12 hours?
So at least this idea that I'm rather rather fond of and that is that the body reacts quickly to good food.
We don't have to wait around to get all the benefits. Of course. The other point is though. It may take time, obviously, you know, to recover all the scars and wounds and you know, push back disease all the way it may take, you know, weeks possibly.
So but the but the important thing to keep in mind a more positive approach I think is to expect to see benefits quickly.
If it doesn't, if it doesn't happen, don't fret, you know, your little skirt steak with it may take a little longer.
so,
but the idea that it occurs so fast, that's pretty consistent, you know, watching cholesterol drop in cholesterol, is not the be-all and end-all. That everything not even holding anything, but it's a good indicator. It's good health indicator. Yes. He's that kind of dropped and say, wow, something's happening here.
My doctor was shocked that mind drop so much in just three months. I mean, you know, he took me off about cholesterol medication after only three months, it was
Sten defining moment for me, for sure. A question that people ask me all the time and I want to get the answer from the expert. How much plant protein does the average person need? And how about seniors? Is it different for seniors?
You said, plant
protein. Plant protein does the average person need,
right? Actually. I've over over my years and
Then nutrition. I don't get very excited about talking about specific amounts. I don't like to do that because it gives added some degree of certainty. I think, and rather, I'd like to say it this way, that plants, whatever we do, you know, if we have a big surprise, we get all the protein. We need number one. Number two. We don't need to worry about consuming excess protein with plants. It doesn't happen. So it's not even, it's not even worth thinking about great.
One one thing is is important to say though. We do not need these animals in order to get the Protein. That's very clear.
Very clear. No, we
don't, we can get all the protein we need and we don't need that much. Just from eating plants and we just can put that question back on the Shelf again. I didn't worried about
anyway. Okay, good. Now, I have an answer. You once used intermittent fasting to cure a problem you had
Dad, what is your opinion on intermittent fasting, and which type would you recommend?
Well, that's good too. I didn't know too much about that. Until I did have a problem and back in the late 80s. I started, um, what was the 25 years before that when I was at MIT? And I also isolated a compound called dioxin very poisonous.
That's for the agent orange story of Vietnam days, and I was working in a laboratory without adequate protection. I didn't know that stuff was so chaotic when I was working with so poisonous, but I kind of got the got exposed to a lot of that, and that caused me some problems. Eventually separate accruing and getting a little worse over 25 years. And finally got to a point where
I couldn't hardly speak and move my mouth for well. I had to quit. Lecturing went to a lot of doctors. Couldn't figure out. They always had names for things, and I was told that one doctor said that when one year's time, I would not be talking. I mean, this is a leading one of the leading experts in the country. The head of Neurology at Cornell med school and told by another physician to that. I was likely to choke to death.
He showed me how to use a pen knife to put it into my throat. Oh, so those are the diagnosis are getting and I could tell you that's not very exciting.
No, no sounds very scary.
So I kept on added, I had to give up election for a little bit and and it was kind of a difficult time. But finally, I was invited to this is one more step, 19.
91. I think it was 1990 late 1991. What? I was getting particularly bad, I was invited to. This is also right? Just after the New York Times had come out with a lead article on our work in China. It was the featured article and in the times also, with front page of USA Today, and all these newspapers took the my work a challenge yet. It can be known and
So I got invitation to be the keynote. Speaker at a meeting of the so-called National hygiene Society.
And that, that's a good Society, but old Society, but I wasn't a can't. I wasn't acquainted with them that much and they wanted me to come and speak because I saw the article headline news. So, I told him and stumbled in a holding my mouth. And so far, as I said, you know, I can't really speak very well, but they wanted to. Well, come down on you. We got a lot of people down here is an audience of 500 or so, and a lot of them are not necessary. They're sort of a little bit outside of the box when it comes to Medicine.
So I said, okay. I came down kind of stumbled through it and then tell them and got together from different parts of the world. How to look at me, just see the problem and decided and I'm giving you this detail because I'm very pressured what they did. They basically made arrangements for me to go to a fasting Clinic.
At their expense or someone's? They spent. So I didn't very kind of them. So I went there with some suspicion by this time, our adventure about 80 doctors and I didn't know it was, you know, do what only fasting. So I did that first time 14 days
water only for 14 days.
Yeah. For water only. Yeah. Wow, there were some they were doing longer than that. And so I kind of got introduced to the
Love for all the fashion. I heard reports of others as well. You know, some people are real recovering things here and made a friendship with the guy who was organized at the time. Dr. Alan goldhamer. It weren't for guy. He he was young at the time and just getting it started. It was in California. And so I interact with Alan quite a bit. Like I was sort of saying the beginning. I don't think he's going to do anything for me.
But I did it once and then I came home and thought it had game. Something. My voice wasn't sure. She thought I gained something, but I wasn't, I was kind of discouraged to at the same time. So what? Back a second time, maybe a year later with her just to have company and I did it then and wow and about six months after that. I started a thing started to come together for me.
And she had had a pretty pretty serious bout with asthma off and on that, went away for her forever. And so I became a fan.
I became a fan of what goldhammer and his medical staff. Do
did it pure you?
Yes. Actually you're not I'm gonna say 95% I'm still left with a little bit of struggle at times, you know when public speaking but it works out. Okay, most people hardly know that I really ever had a problem and I'm more comfortable. Now with the speaking of work, just way out.
I had to quit lecture to students on the campus, which was difficult.
Do you ever? So I could say yeah, it was actually it came around after what was that that total period. Maybe a couple years 23 or something like that. What back a second time and everything worked out much better as I say, and then even a third time. So a became, I mean, that's all met. A lot of people there got to know the people at this organization is called True. North Santa Rosa.
Yes. I've heard of that.
They're very good. I think quite an operation now and I so I can give him high recommendations and I think of the fasting idea actually goldhammer gave me some data. They had, they were curious to know if I'm a help them get a professionally published which we did. We took the data. We analyzed it and sure enough. We got some really impressive date. It was published in peer-reviewed journals.
So he subsequently is done really well at lots of different people there, cheering all kinds of things. And I think had in my mind was that experience?
If someone has a, you know, pretty serious problem, that less, they've been diagnosed with cancer things, don't look too good. Maybe certainly other kinds of diseases. Cancers have little bit of a stretch, but nonetheless, they've got problems and they don't quit. They want to get something pretty quick. I really think the first step for a lot of people not to go to Hamburg. Of course, he makes the final decisions on this sort of thing, but I think doing a fast
is a great way to go. And one of the things about 2:30 is that when you come off the fast, that's the way his program is designed, when one comes off at fast, they go off easily. Usually using something really like like watermelon or letters or something like that. And so then they take maybe two depending how long did the pastor comes on and within two or three days are back on to eating whole food again, but this time
Read a whole plant-based food. That's that's that's the
deal. That's so interesting.
So I think the combination is good and I actually have always been intended to what the literature says about. That kind of thing. It's an old old practice. I'm sure. You know, I mean thousands of years old.
And different religions, in fact, you know kind of proud of having some of their Originators talk about that. I think so, it's not a in the modern day my seen what was strange but just been around a long time and it does have benefits. No question about
it. And there's so many types in 2010. You starred in Forks Over Knives the documentary, which
Google handedly changed my life and I wanted to ask you, but looking back on it. Do you have some insight into why this film had such an impact? And we, you surprised.
I was a bit surprised. Yes. Number one, but number two, there, what? That was the time when there wasn't much said about this diet thing. I think, I think they was a very Timely.
You know, introduction something that was, you know, in the movie inform, people like to look at things that way and so actually, they had come to me first and wanted to know if I would entertain the idea of doing that, I'd been doing some, you know, documentaries for people. And so I wasn't just couldn't be sure, you know, doing one more, but it turned out, they were really quite serious and doing a good job. And then, of course, they learned about dr.
As well, so he and I were still very good friends. We try to
played a significant role in that film. I I think and now to ask whether or not
You know, what was it? Like that's not quite true question to ask, but, you know, I get stopped and stopped a lot in airports and stuff like that because that film has really gotten around and so it's been very successful, no question about it. And there was a might take this opportunity though also to say there's a sequel to that in a way. I mean for sometimes a great great film gotten around but one of the questions that
I was being asked because I was kind of featured in it. You know, why haven't we heard this
before? That's exactly how I felt when I saw it. I'm like, how come? I don't know this. I'm like one of the healthiest people that I know
exactly. And so I was being asked that question. Of course, I rambled on and gave some my exclamations, I guess. But that in turn LED that question led to a second film
That was produced by my older son Nelson called. Plant pure Nation.
Yes. I started in a fantastic. Right answer the
question. And, you know, it's question very much relating to
Big systems especially the political economic Arena.
And it's hard to and that's one of my passions. Actually, the whole question concerning the role of the government and Industry and all the rest, you know, and create an environment. We live in. So that did you say you saw plan a nation.
Yes. I saw it on. Not, the holistic holiday at Sea. It debuted
their sure that's been out there. I think it's on Amazon. Now doing is available Netflix and Amazon.
So, that was what the origin of that was. It was the same producer for both John, Corey, who did worked with Brian. Brian 1 Del with, with a force of nice and then he came to work with Nelson, to imply a nation. So now there's been a number of films like that. He
has about their house.
At that, but that's the grandfather of them all. Now. Can we talk a little bit about your books first, The China Study because it is phenomenal and it is still the most comprehensive study of nutrition ever done. And I think you've sold over 3 million copies. My question is
Something you talk about in the book is the stages of cancer. Why do cancer cells grow more rapidly because of animal protein?
Well, that was the central question that I was asking myself and the very beginning when we started over search way back at that time in January of 1969 to be specific or so. That was my NIH Grant. One of the things I was.
Interested in doing it that time. Its first offers. I wanted to duplicate what I thought I was believing and duplicate possibly what they didn't workers have done. So that was, we're busy doing that a bit but then because I became convinced, this is real. And so the next question, we ask any place in research. Actually, we own something like this typically something. So provocative is this, you know, question. I was asking us, you know, how does that work?
Of about chemical sets. And so we got busy and my life was very active in that had a number of doctoral students and postdoctoral students and we look for the so-called explanation mechanism. And what really turned out was that from the very beginning. I mean, in one study and one of these mechanisms is a very complex process. A lot of research usually involved a whole PhD thesis.
And so it never doctoral students who did the research on this essentially, but it turned out that after what was it, maybe 10, 12 years. I got to a point where I was looking for that that mechanism that could account for this because it, it's all there is whether spoken or not, when we see something like this. I'd like to know what the mechanism is. If you can identify, then maybe we can make a drug.
All right. All right. I said sure the general thinking and I guess I was caught in that Paradigm to to a great extent, but after looking for everything, when we finally got to a point where we had something like 10 or 12 so-called mechanism that could account for this effect in about chemical sense. I can mention just a couple high protein feeding leads to the carcinogen that causes.
He has at least a carcinogen to enter the cells faster.
It is about chemical process. It also increases an enzyme that activates the car Senator to On and On like that including a couple of other things. It does that compromises, our normal way of protecting ourselves. So I finally got probably saved we had about 10 or 12.
Of these so-called mechanisms. And I had to was looking for, is yet another mechanism. Why am I doing this? This is crazy. And this, all this stuff is being published by the way, in peer-reviewed journals. That was no legitimate, good research, and I thought I realized, you know, there's no such thing as the mechanism.
And that probably is one of the biggest most.
Most exciting observations. I think I made my career because what that said is wait a minute. If I you know, if there's no such thing as the mechanism, I'm really undercutting the whole precepts for the drug industry. I mean, we rely on drugs primarily because we think usually that there is a specific mechanism that accounts for various and Sundry illnesses and sicknesses and diseases. We
We think of it, you know, as I mechanism, maybe two, maybe through whatever and then we try to find some chemical or block it. That doesn't make a lot of sense and to tell you. So when my net thought occurred to me, I knew I was treading on some territory, was a very popular and to be more specific. I was looking for the reason why the animal protein itself was
it's in cancer. Like it did was so dramatic. We had all these mechanisms and now, I've gotten two very excited about the idea that this in fact, is the way Nutrition Works. Not just for protein, but for other nutrients as well, a whole host of so-called mechanisms measured. I don't know. Any number you can pick, you know, thousands millions of different mechanisms all working together.
We had to create response and so it presents a whole different perspective on what nutrition can do.
Did you actually turn on and turn off cancer in your study within your protein?
Yeah, we did net was another sort of dramatic moment. And since we could come to that realization that we could turn it on and turn it off of All Things by basically increase.
Seeing the consumption of animal protein. Well, here's here's the what I'd like to say. Here's the motion, in many ways, the most revered of all nutrients, actually, controlling the most feared of all diseases talking about, you know, so on guessing on coals hot, coals to getting shorter, even think about the things that way we could turn cancer our knowledge. Yes, and and cancer it starts in.
Avoid most of us think this way, it starts with a mutation.
Chemical for example, hold a carcinogen and these things we get exposed to one way or another and the food and water so forth. And some of these chemicals have the capability of causing mutations, some of which may lead to a predisposition from cancer. And then that usually is at that point in time. Everybody gets busy spending a few hundred million dollars, trying to find a drug to block it.
But in reality because they figure, that's the only way we can handle this disease, got to kill those cancer cells. Once their product of invitation. They're not going to go backwards mutations. Don't go backwards. Very, very well. They're seldom. So what we, what we did and you to go to your point. We could control the rate of the cancer development could be, we could reverse it by hand. That's a whole new world, A Whole New World.
You got a lot of you were
Criticized a lot about that and got a lot of pushback and you put up with a lot. Why do people get so angry and hostile about food as medicine? It wasn't like, you were selling snake oil to prevent disease. The expression. You are what you eat is nailing, you know, two centuries old. So why all the hostility?
That's the subject of my new book? Oh, yeah. Again, I night I ran into that full board in.
In 1980, the 82. I was on the National Academy of Sciences committee, rather distinguished Committee of 13, people to time. It was kind of exciting. We were being invited to write a report, a scientific report on the relationship between night nutrition cancer. The US Senate has put up the funding for that and so we worked on it and I was fairly, I became quite visible in that activity because I was also holding
other positions in Washington in the policy Arena. And so, I started saying things that even my committee colleagues, the other 12 didn't necessarily agree with that much, but I was getting work at that time, that, that animal protein was a problem for short saying these things. And then I, then I learned, that's not the same to say that protein. You're so revered, so precious. So
We're almost worshipped in many ways. And yeah, I started getting pushed back and the pushback was really, really serious at times. Like, you know, trying to petition being put up your official to have me thrown out of my professional Society. Wow, after I had just been nominated by the executive, committee's to be the president to be a little
president, and then they threw you out, pardon. And then they threw you out after that.
Well, there was a hearing held and all
Like that? No, they did not. I mean there was fraudulent. As far as I was concerned and I knew what was coming from. It was the industry had their subtle ways, not so subtle, you know, settle on the sets of the probably doesn't tend to see this very much but it's anything but subtle when they do, their thing is pretty nasty. And so they start doing things like that. Quite a number of things trying to get me thrown out of my faculty position at Cornell, but I had ten years, so they
That either and I could it goes on and on and that's been going on for 40 years, 50 years. And so it's taught me a lot about, you know, our system. I think we have some information here. I find very exciting and I really had come to believe and what we were learning and not only that but it actually others has started using it very Society. Way, is
And seeing results that were pretty spectacular. So, basically back to my experiences with national policy development. I have these had taken a great deal of interest in asking that question. Why? Why does the public get to hear this? And so in nineteen, that was 80 82 on continued on then, in from 82, until about 85. And I then took a position at University of Oxford in England.
We're going to work with my colleagues. There. We are going to work in China and I spent a year in Oxford and it would, you know, that attacks. A hump on made professionally was pretty serious personally to. So I decided to go to the libraries of our car, to try to answer that question. I said, what in the world is make his people so angry. And so hostile about this thing.
You know, so much frightening. I mean, scientists cannot operate in that kind of environment if you will, so, I got into the library, so, to in London and to an Oxford, but the whole year really, really getting into the history of that. Is this question? Your word is this hostility coming from? What was this misbehavior? And I think I found the answer
and that's in your upcoming book.
Yes, and then upcoming book and I think it goes to some really fundamental questions concerning not only our history, but it goes to question, concerning the way in which medical institutions have evolved.
And scientific is the truth, the way they have evolved over the last 150 years.
And for me, it's already all quite clear. Now.
I can't wait to read it.
And then on top of it, the science of self, you know, realizing what nutrition can do which is a very different perspective than generally known. Put those two together. First decides the second to politics and third and fourth and fifth, a few other things.
But it's I think it's a fantastic story. I get I'm I mean my wife and I really got into this to along the way she was fantastic and just changed her diet. We had five children and they go up and reach the. They got into it too because they were only growing up when I was learning this to some extent. But anyhow, we we changed our diets. As you already know what's already said, and we've been pretty strict ever since this.
So, I don't, I should be knocking on wood, but it tends to work. I'm just going on 87 and I don't use drugs.
And I still get around, pretty good.
That's fantastic. Just so that everybody knows that name of the book is called the future of nutrition. Is that correct? An Insider's look at the science, why we keep getting it wrong and how to start getting it, right? Which is being released on December 20th. So, who should read this book? Dr. Campbell
my scientific colleagues first and foremost, but you know, I'm just
a little bit of smoke here. I think the first one said nature breeder are the policy makers, but I know I haven't been quite involved in policy. Making deeply involved for quite some years. I say that problem too. Namely that people make policy like, you know, let's say the doctor guidelines. For example, or the group, that determines, how much nutrients we need. That's the food nutrition Board of the National Academy Sciences. There's different.
She's in our country that actually play important roles in determining what the public has to know if you will.
Basically, most of that even if scientists make a contribution to that and they are asked to participate at the at the last at the last stroke of the pen, the people control that are politicians.
And the politicians are the ones who are elected, you know, that they're basically, in my view, I'm being very dark now, I guess you can say but this way, I feel politicians are bought and sold and it depends on who who bought their elections and at least me to one, one of my really pet peeves, it has to do with the 2010 Supreme Court decision on citizens.
United is called where corporate money was given a free ride, free on giving an Open Door, almost to participate more and political elections. And so now we all know what you can see here. This played out every single day. Those who have a better chance of winning the ones, who get the most money.
And money is required all made really entirely available. But that decision was only a 5 to 4 decision to. And so it's a touchy subject and I feel strongly just as a citizen, that should be overturned, right? Harm is done
Tory. It's unbelievable. Well, since we're talking talking about that, can we talk about covid-19? Because I want, I got a question for you.
Why in the world are so many people suspicious of science? Is it a right brain versus left? Brain thing. Are there a lot of not a lot of critical thinkers. Are there just certain kinds of Minds that can't Embrace scientific evidence more easily.
That's an excellent question. That's an excellent question. Ico to see this. I've described it is from the my experiences.
As with science as reductionist scientific philosophy versus holistic philosophy, if we take the reductionist approach and that is the basis. That's the core of the entire Health, and Medical Care Systems. That's where we take. Make the assumption that individual entities improved, like nutrients individual researchers act by one mechanism to produce or an effect. For one disease. If you will, it's always all those kind of details are very
Specific track Pathways that's reductionism. When we do that. Then there's a zillion different ways. We can think about that. There's no limit and everybody can have their favorite top storage. Talk about, maybe make a drug out of it. That's the system. We know, have in contrast, if we start recognizing that, this is not the wage nature, did it.
Nature has had a longer time. I mean, nature is our mother, you know, long before we became and came to the equation. That nature has a way of taking an accomplice accepting complex things and organize them in a way to produce an exceptionally complex product.
And it does it in such a way, that will never ever even invested computers in the world will never fully sort that out. We can learn a lot about parts. Now, sort of thing. That's what we base, our industry on make money on it because we can sell those ideas of based on Parts. But when you think of things in a holistic way, the story emerges then that we are talking about a role for food and other things.
We do to put a role for food that affects the whole variety of illnesses. We may have in the same sort of way.
Then obviously, uh, one has her own sort of mix of mechanisms and all that sort of stuff, obviously, but what's fascinating about this idea? Is that it's almost seems like up again. Speaking at Eli logical sense. She knew what she was doing. They sure did. Yes. She did. So I guess that's right side. Left side brains kind of thinking. I don't know. I think it ties into some way.
But unfortunately, I think a lot of it obviously very good people very audible people, very honest, people who somehow don't quite get it. He say that because they've not been exposed to this kind of thinking, I think. Yeah, and so, we're our entire dialogue, our public dialogue and narrative on these things. Usually cultured over decades. If not centuries that
Dialogue what we tend to say. And we assumed it was right and so forth and so on, that's been really crafted in a way to as far as science is starting to be very specific and and we do that in part because of the economic system we have we like to have ideas that we can sell makes money on.
And that is that's supported by a legal system. We have to protect property, protect ideas. Yes, your trademark patents so forth. And so as long as we can protect intellectual property for some period of time to give everybody with a new idea to give me a chance to you know, Market it everything's fine. I'm not, you know, I really am a free market person and they almost sound like I'm not I am
Because I really believe in obviously individuals have lots of freedom to do what they want. As long as there were behavin honorably, the tall order, but I really think that the society at large has been gosh, how to say it's the tightest, don't we don't know what, we don't know, one of my favorite Expressions. We don't know. It's not mine that somebody said that many times before, but
We don't know what we don't know. So you can sort of say well, what do you mean by that? And that is that we obviously don't know everything. We just were having a very each of us have a very limited view of the world based on a lot of her own personal experiences. And we adopt language that we think is just normal language and say things and then never stop to think. Maybe some of these words were using, you know, are not quite right.
And that's where size is supposed to come in. Always be in the Enterprise. That is skeptical of me. Science is supposed to be skeptical. Also, ask questions and I just find it that s asking questions, you know, over and over. Never expected to find the ultimate solution.
But always asking questions that will try to refine our sacred. I just think that kind of thing and always being challenged as part of the
game, bottom line. There's just some people are going to believe science and there's some people who aren't is that. Correct?
Absolutely, I think science has unfortunately,
Gotten a bad name. For I certainly have weakened name then what should have I think? Science. Ideally is unlike the other word, I think for Science and I thought just for years, if there's a synonym for science, at least for my way of thinking is called Integrity. Those two words mean the same thing to me and everybody can be a scientist, you know, today their lives as just having the interest, I guess you could say.
And the dedication to, you know, the know the facts. And when we do that, then those leaders some really interesting places. We ended up Challenger, only taken, certainly challenging, be systemic problems, too. So sighs, unfortunately science has become known.
This is my opinion, but science has become known for is becoming. It's becoming quite advice a that way his size of become acquainted with just merely doing technical things, may be creating technical products of one sort or another. I don't consider that real science that's technology because if we store it in our Enterprise early on with the show,
Something definite in mind. I want to make this. I want to make that or proves that someone prove that that's just fine and dandy. We're going to be doing that. We always have done it will continue to do it. That's fine. It's not quite what I'm talking about. It's a kind of an Enterprise we end up making products, really many cases outstanding products, you know, so the good, but it still is technology. Science on the other hand is something different.
We simply make some observations. We see things around us and we have questions.
So we say, we start saying why, why this? Why that, and we hardly ever get to the bottom of it, but we sure do learn a lot, you know, and that Journey, sure, try to get to the bottom of things and we discover things to that, hit our odds with what we always thought.
And I certainly said, I certainly saw a lot of
that.
It's, you know, get you in trouble.
Sure. Can we stick on covid-19 to because I asked you you conducted a big study of the severity of viruses and the effect of diet on viruses with all your experience. If you were heading up the covid-19 task force, what would you do differently than what is currently being done?
Or by its own. That's a lot about it goes back to the beginning. I mean, I just learn to about this new virus at the beginning about a year ago or so or at least early 2020. When I first heard about it, you know, I heard it was could be bad. It could be middle of worse than some of the others. And but I also unfortunately I was thinking at that time and some initiative based on what I know from other situations.
Has the pharmaceutical companies like us to think about the seriousness of problems like that. So they have an opportunity to make some money on it. You get people, afraid and scared and as such as a little bit of that element in there, but I wasn't entirely correct what I did. Learn early on like it other people we could develop tests.
For who's been infected who has not, we can develop that reasonably easily even with new viruses. Science is pretty good at that. So I would have for example, really put all you know, all the efforts into getting good testing testing as much as possible to see who's infected, who's not it's just going to be a serious problem. That it's a good idea just for us as individuals is for the society as a whole to identify, you know,
Who's the ones? The carrier, who's the ones being affected? The won't be affected or impacted the moment who can pass it on? Those kind of things. So testing is, is uppermost. In my mind. That's the first thing I've ever done, and I think it still should be pursued number one. And then when at that stage, if we're in a position of being able to know who's get infected not. Now, we take actions, those individuals can take action. So in that particular,
Chase stay home. Just don't work in the public quarantine or just the words, you use. Yes. And just to get out of out of the prophets way for a time, take a little time off until you can see whether or not you've gone through that period of in fact, tivity. So that's it. Testing of quarantined. I think are important. And then also in the absence of further information, I guess a social distancing and masking is okay to. I don't like it.
It, you know, as a person, you know to sure a lot of people do but that's also a reasonable thing to do force. And you know, what, one of the things that fortunately happen in this discussion during the past year. It's been politicized, then you got one side as I say, claiming that it's all a hoax and don't worry about it and do what you want. And you know, that that's really kind of silly stupid. And then at the same time, not being prepared. If the deal with the problem, we've got the other side though.
Sometimes you were taking advantage of this time and, and scaring the crap out of everybody. You know, really? I mean, they're using total numbers of cases, talk about all the time. That's not the metric. That's that's a metric for, you know, hospitals. They need to know something about that because they need to know what kind of facilities you want to do. You want to be required to take care of the problem, fair enough, but in terms of analyzing basically you how do
We get it, who's getting it? How bad is it being so forth? Like that? That's there's an element there. There's not being addressed and the element I'm specifically thinking about is the role of nutrition. And so I am not totally new to this game. We actually did some work in or China Study many years ago as you mentioned. Over 30 years ago. We were doing this. We were looking at
For example, the effect of couple of viruses on causing certain diseases, one virus of which is probably the worst virus in the world. In terms of numbers of deaths, NASA one we worked with it's called a hepatitis B virus that virus called day at the time. Now is also say to but in any case that virus is deadly is said to cause something like 700 800 thousand deaths a year every year and it's
Just still out there mostly in Asia and Africa in certain parts of the world, but it's elsewhere to we in our study in China actually had access to and back-to-back studies, more or less in the same population, but I've about worst-case 6,500 adults next to which holds for 9,000 when he repeated it. We had access to measuring or assessing the nutritional status.
All these people in great detail, New York Times called it the most comprehensive study ever done in the history of medicine. I think we still may may say that we collected, enormous amount of information. So it gave us an opportunity to have a more in-depth, look at how things, work, how things work to create versus every diseases. And in the ones that we were, of course, primarily interested in that time was heart disease, cancer, diabetes, you know, the so-called
And degenerative diseases that are typically found a Russian countries. So we focused on that. That's where the China Study got, most of its reputation. But we also had, you know, access to this virus, on this particular case, is the viruses cause liver cancer primary cause of liver cancer. And that was interestingly. It's that was one of my other Hazard was wearing at the time and went to the Philippines in the 1960s.
Because I thought at that time, I was doing some research in that area and I thought it was a chemical that causes the problem. Only to learn that it was nutrition and origin to the old come back to the genres that we collected on nutrition information. Here's what we learned by can just say this correctly and this is such a sensitive topic. But what we learned was that people, net, we don't learn them. This is these are the data, these are real hard data.
What we learned was that people who consume the most plant material, they were the ones that formed antibodies to the virus. Okay? Yeah, so people got infected if they formed antibodies, then they tended not to get the cancer and true enough. That's what it is. People consume the most players don't get to liver cancer. And also they have the most antibodies, the two go together. In contrast, the people consume an animal-based food and it wasn't much.
Should measure. They just not much as like on average in the areas where we were something like, 10% of what we do in the west. But still that protein, that that kind of protein, animal food was high enough to actually, to actually be a social worthy increase and we find you in the formation of so-called not deformation, but increased in prevalence of antigens of the virus, that means active virus.
And also tended to repress the formation of antibodies. So, here you have sort of, you know, a differentiation between animal plant based food on one plant based foods. Are basically, when people get infected, I'm not sure what these Foods, whether the protections against infection, what we come. I'm not saying that at all, but I'm talking about, you know, the consequences of the infection when we get it. So people who have higher consumption, good plant, based food.
Well, they form antibodies much more readily their immune, and they had, there's no relationship with with liver cancer. In contrast. The people consume an animal protein, based diets animal food, the eggs, poultry pork, whatever those kind of people, even a small small level of consumption. It's amazing that sort of would never see anything, but it turns out that those who consumed and more animal based foods,
There are certain cholesterol level for one thing starts to increase from very low levels and almost no heart disease. It starts to increase. And then you guys start seeing the emergence of heart disease, and Cancers washing chronic diseases. That's what we tend to see. And so here, in this case. Here's a viral disease, not the one of the Gentry Junction of once. We see the same thing, those who consume animal based foods tend to keep around the active virus without
On the antibodies they have in. There's the people consume them or animal based foods have an affinity for liver cancer. So the virus is acting out of that's bad. Is bad behavior. What people would consuming animal based foods contrast with consuming plant-based Foods, as I said, they're more inclined to become immunized against the virus and I say, this is hard data, and I'm I'm saying something here a little bit.
I've met some of this had been published. It was published back in the 1990s when I was asking that that time or suggesting, we better pay attention to what we eat when it comes to this disease, like liver cancer. For example, we had that information, but no one's paying attention. Now we have this new virus and all they have is for my understandability. Sure. None of us really know. There's fully but viruses all have something in common.
Each virus has its own endpoints.
So a very serious like AIDS polio just to name a few colds and flu which are not too bad. You know that kind of thing. They range all of them. At the court may be related to cancer all viruses when they land on our body and start multiplying and using our genetic Machinery to Ashley. So they can replicate. But in any case, these viruses are immune system is called and deploy.
That's just an all nutritional as Norman Normal nature. Operating the immune system goes to work, and tries to immunize the body against the hazards of the viruses. That's that's a generalization that applies different mechanisms, different. Pathways different distance from there, but it's just one of the facts of nature.
And one of the best effectors of creating that really a healthy. Immune system is eating the right food. That's simple, any plans. Well, it is, it's just, it's very exciting. I just think that's something that we could do and they're not talking about
that. I was just going to say that, you know, the underlying health conditions like obesity hypertension, diabetes heart disease, and even dementia that are putting people at a higher risk for covid-19 in getting really ill.
And it's such a shame that mainstream media never talks about nutrition or how nutrition could impact in even reverse many chronic diseases, but I think people seem to be slowly finding out and maybe that's the Silver Lining. Do you think covid-19 could cause a health Revolution because people are getting so afraid of being sick.
Boy. I'd like to thank that. In fact, I have thought it you have this may be an opportunity.
He went you know somehow that's the way when things happen we go to sleep on a lot of things and until something drastic comes along and we wake up and I think it is particular case. We've been asleep at the wheel regarding the role of the attrition and health care and attention and treatment so forth. We haven't taken too. Seriously. We almost totally ignored this question. As far as viral diseases are concerned.
And it turns out that we have some answers here. I think thank you. We got a lot of data. Yeah, that is the way nature works and it uses it uses food in this really drum dramatic way. So maybe maybe it is the opportunity. What you're just doing right now, you know macon's figure out a way to get some of the publicizes very nice. And I think that's part of the journey.
He's picking out ways to get the information out there. I have actually heard that there is
some doctors who are treating covid-19 patients with a nutrition approach, which is pretty phenomenal and I'm hoping to find out more about that. Do you have any insights into that?
Yeah, I certainly have been interested in that. Yeah, and that's a really key thing. And what I say is that it could back to a point. I was making the beginning when one starts his diet and they go, you know.
Wholesale whole thing, things happen, really rapidly. A lot of people aren't aware of that. That's a very important point, and so things can happen pretty quickly. And so, I would say that anyone who's really vulnerable. Maybe just got the disease, even just got to learn it just got infected or there, you know, associated with some others who you know, with whom might get some disease. Make us wish to die. So I think we could see some results whether
Once the symptoms once their present and they start acting up. I don't know. All bets are off but and they're pretty serious, you know, at that point in time, obviously, but we also know to that people have been diagnosed with heart disease, fairly late in the stage. They switch, they see benefits, and it's just one of the remarkable things of nature that she knows how to somehow capture, you know, take advantage of those opportunities to not only prevent future opportunities, but actually to treat existing problems.
Yes.
So
it's never too late. That's always what I say. It's just never too late to you know, take back your health or turn your health around but never. Okay. The last thing I want to ask you about is your upcoming series because your son filmmaker Nelson, Campbell and founder of plant. Pure nation is about to launch a ten-part seminar series followed by an additional release every two days.
As in a week and you are the star of it. Can you tell me what the series will cover in? Will it be anything like the lectures you do for the plant-based course you offer online at Cornell because I took that course and was one of the best things I've ever done. Well, this lecture Series be similar, and what subjects will you cover?
Well, the two go together. I would say hand-in-glove kind of thing. I want to make that point. It's true Nelson has developed this.
Asked me to participate in. Put it together. What turned out to be 9 lecturers, I think will be a tad, some sort. But in any case, what I attempted to do their nests are very limited number of lectures for so-called course, but, you know, you kind of have to you have to get to a point on some of these difficult times. I so I what I the way I looked at it was to try to choose the main things. I learned during my career.
And put it into a form of a story in assets, your chronologically. Yeah, which is possible. And so, what I say in the beginning of the, hey, we got a problem here, we got a problem and I discussed that, for example, talk about the kind of problems. We really have what the same thing I'd say, right? In the beginning. I said, while we have this problem facing us. We see it all the time. We also have something that's a very likely, a potential solution.
The whole food plant-based I can do more than all the pills and procedures combined. Is that simple? So then in quite frankly than going on into the next lectures, I give various to study ways to consider that question. Well, how do people can say, well, how are you crazy? What are you saying? You're saying something a little bit far-fetched. Well, that's what I try to get into these fields of lectures to, to defend the proposition that gosh, darn. This thing really does work. It really works.
And it has implications for the entire medical and Health Care Systems. So that's what this these lectures are about. Now having said that and obviously in a form of nine elections. That's the summary that's kind of a summary of what I did. But at the same time, we're still improving. And on our or online course, no went to Cornell
University. No. Such a
fabulous course, for any new course, very exciting. New course, having to do with the barman. I should
say. Yes. I heard about that.
And there's it because food is the Big Ticket item. That's really affecting your environmental problems more than anything else. I was involved in that some years ago with the World Bank when that much that's order. And so it's a major contributor to that not the major contributor to the environmental problems. We could save a lot of the problem area, right? Have right. Now, if we just ate the right food and the right foot in this case is the same food that cuts health care costs by 60, 70 80 %.
You know, it's the same food that makes us feel good. Your voice is diseases. It's, the answer is basically the same across the board.
It's when she, oh, no, that's what I'm trying to do, or try to do in this, that message in the lectures. And so the lectures are sort of, let me let me argue that they are. I hope as nothing more than an introduction. I'm sorry alternative. Sure like some summary comments. Yes, but basically, it's injured introduction to a really important topic that needs to be considered more detail. And for that I really would suggest. The people would take seriously.
Going to take it a chance at taking a course you took. That's the center for nutrition studies program that we have. And we've got some other things going to our daughters involved in this and environmental projects and stuff like that. I don't know her or another son is position and he's a, he's now treating breast cancer. Patient. Believe it or not, the whole food plant-based diet, so many believe it. Wow, can believe it should never have been done before.
The Campbell family are cured.
In the
world.
I said, is this attacking a problem in very specific ways. I just, I just think this thing about deciding what we put in our mouths.
You know, enjoy and we want to enjoy it. And at the same time, you know, cure ourselves, make ourselves healthy, make our society and our planet. In fact healthy. It's pretty simple. I think she really simple. The science is these infinitely complex? That's true, but we can't be allow ourselves to get lost in the
weeds.
No, we can't. Dr. Campbell. Thank you so much for spending so much time with the ordinary vegan Community. The world is a healthier place because of you and you have a literally saved, so many people's lives. We so appreciate you in everything you do. And I look forward to hearing your upcoming seminar. Thank you. Dr. Campbell
was thank you for having me. I just really like what you
You do that, in that case, to get to adapt to the Bobby. That's the idea. I
promise, I will. Thank you. Okay, bye-bye. Thanks to dr. Campbell for being here today and to all of you who listened. I so appreciate you sharing your valuable time with me. I will put links to all dr. Campbell's books. In this week's show notes, including his new book, being released on December 20th, 2020 called
Future of nutrition. It is a deep dive into the history of nutrition and human health and it exposes the truth of corruption in the medical society. And why reductionism in medicine does not work.
I will also put links to his website nutrition studies dot org and his plant-based certification course, from ecornell. Also to his new lecture series officially called now, dr. Campbell's nutrition Paradigm. You can find me my organic vegan CBD oil from Hamp and my cookbook, the easy, five ingredient vegan cookbook on my website at ordinary vegan dotnet.
Please follow me on Instagram at ordinary vegan and join our large healthy community on Facebook, over, 300,000 strong, at facebook.com slash ordinary vegan. Please stay safe. Stay well and always have faith till next time. Thanks for joining our plant, based Community today. Together. We can accomplish great things, please subscribe, so you don't miss any of ordinary vegans recipes.
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