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Hello boys and girls. Ladies and germs, this is Kevin Rose. Welcome to the Kev Kev. Tim Tim show otherwise known as the random show, Kevin
Rose. I have him here. How are you, sir? Dude, you sound just like me. He said that you're sitting Governor us. I'm stoked, man. We're back back to in the random show. Again. This is going to be one that I hope I can make it
through. If you make it to the end without vomiting onto the screen. We will consider it at least a success. And we require, I think some context for people listening got it.
For me about 45 minutes ago asking if we might be able to reschedule. What are the reasons for that? Not to name any any people's names, but we can talk about we won't name
it. Yeah, okay. Compound. So you and I we tend to I mean, you're the one that got me into this stuff. It's really do. Fall dubious on
you. You
you got me into the whole scene of trying out these different compounds and and seeing what happens on the body. And actually, you know what? It's a really good thing. It's a good story because
I am going to hopefully live longer, not that I want to have my main. I don't want to live forever. I'm not one of those people. That is like, you know, waiting for the flipping to happen where AI takes over and we just live forever. Like I don't care about that, but I want to have a good long, healthy life for my little girls, right. So I pay close attention to all the different biomarkers. And one of the things that has always been an issue for me has been glucose disposal so you and I we sit next to each other. I don't actually I don't know how your let's just say healthy person on the hydrogen. Those levels are and they used to eat all those bear claws.
You do larger. And
so the issue I have is if I sit down next to a healthy person, we both eat the exact same carbohydrate. If we're wearing a continuous glucose monitor. I will Spike higher and the glucose will stay elevated. My blood longer than most people, that's not good. You don't want elevated. Glucose levels is what they would call like close to a pre-diabetic. So, you know, I just need to watch that stuff. Pretty carefully. Cardiovascular exercise is huge high, intensity, interval training Zone, to training, all that.
Duff is really helpful. But there are also some compounds that you can take that help here. So one of them is called Zen pick, which is this subcutaneous shot that you do. So you just shoot yourself. Any, we want to just do it my belly and it lowers your glucose levels. It's pretty amazing. It just works really well and actually the some of the other benefits. It's been shown in studies to be cardioprotective. So, physician that I work with actually prescribe it to me.
And they said hey, the one thing you may want to worry about like it can cause a little bit of nausea and some people I'm like, okay like, you know, and like you may want to ramp this up, right? So the little like syringe things that it comes with, you can twist the little knob and you can choose how much you want to inject and like I had a buddy that was doing it too. And he's like, okay, just do .25 for like four weeks and then you can work up 2.5. And then eventually one milligram and I'm like, well, all the benefits and I should say another benefit. Is that the number one side effect is that
People lose weight as well. So like you lose like your beer gut, you get Slimmer, you have better glucose control. I mean, it sounds like a win win win across the board until it
comes down to the bombings. Things, the misery, the last long and lean
misery. Yes, you know, I just kind of jumped a step like yesterday, you know, I had a couple beers on Mike, you know, I just said, just go in because like I just don't want this to go straight to my
guys combined, just I want to juxtapose here. This is worth highlighting after a few beers continue.
Well, I dude,
first of all, I live in Portland, Oregon, best breweries out here. It is very hard in the summer time. I've been it, there's been a major Heat Wave here. Tim Anderson hydrated, without alcohol,
stay
hydrated. All jokes aside. Thankfully we got through the Heat Wave and it is the the beers here are phenomenal. So it was Fourth of July, you know, there was a lot of fun stuff happening. So basically I just go into the where the fridge is and I pulled it out of the fridge and I inject myself on a Turn 2.5 right away. I'm like, I'm gonna skip that .25 stuff.
It's just like, jump into the benefits, right? So I did it and I felt fine. I was like, you know, no big deal, waited an hour or two hours or the was fine, went to bed, woke up at about 4 a.m. Just wanting to find just so bad. And just I haven't laid on the ground of my bathroom in a very long time. Maybe since what I was doing my old diggnation podcast like like 15 years ago or something. It was not good. So I
Just kind of stayed in bed this morning called off a couple of my meetings, and you made a good suggestion on something that decreases nausea. I did that. And here we are. Good to
go. Good also friend. It helps also really important side note. Generally when people use something like ketamine in a clinic, they'll give you Zofran beforehand. So it does work.
Can work really well. That's right. Because ketamine causes a little bit of nausea as well. The higher doses, right? It
can. Yeah. Very different purposes as far as I know. Ketamine won't.
Not give you a six-pack. Yeah, do you have glucose issues? I'm not really. Not really. I mean
you get so you're just like, you wake up in the morning. If you were to test yourself, you're like 75 80. 85, take a look.
I mean, you have to keep in mind. Also. I haven't worn a continuous glucose monitor, since check this out. 2008 or 2009. Oh man, your mouth nose, gen1 Dexcom. You could not get it unless you are type.
Diabetic. And the insertion procedure is terrible and the device itself. You had to track the readout on a proprietary device. There is no integration write anything like a smart phone or an iPhone. And it was really helpful. I will say that most of the takeaways were pretty straightforward. It's like, yeah, a huge meal. Even if it is, quote unquote, good food. You really have this gigantic.
Like bolus of carbohydrate intake even if it isn't carbohydrate really high protein, still spikes. So most of it was kind of self-evident and after a few weeks, I was like, I think I have a pretty good read on what my triggers are, including foods that I respond to strangely. So I didn't feel the need to wear it. Continuously passed a few weeks,
man. I remember when we went to the movies and you first had that thing on and you had this back, then it was massive. You had this massive like, third-party, like
Mini tablet with your love.
Those little device was looked like a page and I was like, oh my hip. Yeah, like a huge pit. I'm like, what are you doing? Like, no one had ever. I'd never heard of those devices before we go. And, and you're right the procedure back, then was this massive needle that they would even hide it. They didn't put it behind any like, thick plastic. So you wouldn't see it. Like, you would watch the needle go in and inject another little thing into you, and then you would have to mainly pull the needle out. It was so brutally invasive. And now, I'll, dude, you gotta
Try that new ones are happening. I actually know what's happening. I
haven't put it in yet. Okay, the old Dexcom, if someone can think of like a barbecue kind of to tined Pitchfork that you use like flip steaks or something. It kind of looks like a miniature version of that. It was too long prongs. So that were kind of like needles that you'd have to push into your abdomen laterally and they were right. And there was no
spring loaded. No. No, it was like like
As you push a button, it's one press button and you pull it off. He's done of that.
Yeah. So one of many things I did for the 4-Hour Body. So are you planning on continuing to take? What is the name of the drug again? I know that zampa. How do you spell it?
Google. Is that the oce mpic? I believe
something like that. Yeah, oze mpic. We are not recommending that you use. This people just to be
no. I mean, you'd have to get in with your flare doctor. But
yeah, yeah.
Yeah. So here's the deal. Like II feel that you what we can say it because a TIA has had a podcast on this compound and a couple other glucose controlling compounds. Are you taking metformin a TA? I'm not
Came out for mine. I think that. Well, I mean the thing is, like, you Tim. It's like, we just have to listen to the scientists and what they're saying and that for me, is all the scientists and people analysts that Atia trains are works with, and, and at is a company. So they look at that and say, yeah, there is a benefit for people with type 2 diabetes, but it's not necessarily clear if you don't have diabetes, if there's a health benefit there. Yeah, so I think it's too
early.
You know, you're talking about beer consumption just to talk about the E putting life in your years instead of years and your life side of the equation. It can I share with you an alcoholic beverage that I become quite fond of? Yes, this is new for me, new for me. So here's the problem. One problem that I have because I don't drink beer. It just does not really affect my system very well. So what ends up happening is I'll go out with someone like you and you begin. Let's have some beers a big not really.
Okay, what do you want? I'll have a gin and soda and then we're going kind of gin and soda for one beer gin and soda for one bear which ends in tears like just. Yes. And so that's the worst and is really really poorly and then I was approached by this company to sponsor the podcast and I'd never heard them June shine and June shine makes hard. Kombucha had not heard of them, but I was like, okay, I like kombucha. I do. In fact, enjoy alcohol, even though it's fallen out of fashion with people were like, I only used ketamine.
I'm so evolved. I'm like, well, we should talk about that. But seven people
say people say that
you at parties. Yeah, people are showing really people are starting to use
ketamine. I don't use alcohol.
Yeah, that's that's turned into this substitute for alcohol which, you know, may or may not have place. But suffice to say, I don't have ketamine in my house for a lot of reasons. We could get into those has a place, but I will have this right here. This June shine and comes in many different players. Yeah, it's great. And so I reached out to my team to ask them about the company and
One of them was like, oh, yeah, I don't you try life, three boxes of it right next to me and I thought to myself. Well, okay that tells me something, so, my team. I considered a very good taste not literally, although they might have that too, and it's great because it's carbonated. It has, I believe six percent alcohol by volume and you can get a nice buzz from one because it's highly carbonated. And certainly also has alcohol
And I just don't seem to have the hangover, nor the losing arms, race of doing like gin and sodas per each other person's beer. It's been really nice. So this is turned into more of a recreational light alcoholic, beverage for me. I'm a huge fan.
Yeah. I didn't. The one thing I was curious about as well. How much sugar were? I always see these types of beverages at the store like these hard. Kombuchas are the hard Seltzer's, all that stuff, you know, and I hadn't tried that white cloth before.
Tried it for the first time. We tried the white cloth,
the white cloth. I haven't tried the white cloth like the Facebook the way to claw. I haven't, but how did you feel after that?
It's not that good. It's not that good. It's I get why it's like I don't know. I feel like when we were growing up it was what was the hot thing? Like the wine coolers? It's essentially kind of like a wine cooler
time. So you'll drink isn't the z.
Now my gosh. That's the first of all I ever got drunk off that the same. That's a funny.
Back at Ya, 3.6 grams of sugar. That's not so bad. I'm looking at at their site right
now. Yeah. Yeah, it's allowed me to be socially to socially drink alcohol without just crucifying my brain cells and I've really enjoyed it. You want to see a bad decision you want to? I can share a bad decision with you. Yeah. Okay, bad decision. Is this mug? I'm going to show you. This is a mug that I bought some time ago as a gift for my girlfriend and as context. Just so
People don't lose their minds completely. My girlfriend will often text me, various things like calm down sugar tits. She calls me Sugar, Tits for reasons that are unclear to me. But sometimes she'll call me Sugar Tits. So, I thought it would be very funny when I was walking through this random store and I saw some people chuckling at a mug. And so I bought this mug, I'm going to show it to you first. Can you see what this
says? Yes is calm. Your tits
calm says, calm your tits.
And it has two little dots in the O and the you of your. So you can imagine that and then lo and behold we end up reuniting because you're traveling separately and in between the time that I bought this and had like put it aside for her in a place where I knew she would find it.
The day before we were to meet up, we got into this huge fight.
It's the, then the next day.
I somewhat forget about this gift. She thought you put that
out there,
all I did put it out there but it was two weeks earlier when everything was groovy. And so then she pulled it out. She's like, calm your tits. Hmm.
Thank you,
babe. And I was like, oh, I'm in trouble. I'm getting pulled into the deep
water. I did this to
Self.
I feel like she would find that funny under normal
circumstance or normal circumstances. She would have found it, hilarious. But the fact that we had a heightened. Let's call it a heated, a passionate discussion within 24 hours that had not yet been fully resolved, led to calm your tits not being as funny as I had hoped. Yeah, that's fair. So so good decision. Bad decision. What else do we have on the roster?
Oh, man. I've got some talk about. We got
a lot.
Yeah, I mean, you know,
one of the things we can we did put out a little tweet asking for people's questions. Lots of questions around blockchain and peas all that crazy stuff. We can save that. For later. We can go to stay on the health front. You want to do that or do you want to go into some of the blockchain stuff up to you? You know, since I will be mostly
just staring at you with a blank expression. Once we get to all of the technical details of crypto blockchain, I'd say, let's stick with health for a little bit longer.
Yeah. Yeah.
I'm curious actually, you know, looking at the video. Now, we're going to put this video out or know, we videos. Well, don't wanna. I'm, yeah, so you got a little like device up above your door frame behind you. Yeah, that little guy right there. So, one of the questions that I had for you actually is like, you know, we're not as young as we used to be. And for me, flexibility has been such an important thing to focus on and flexibility with supporting muscles to. So that when you do
Give flexibility to start just like a blob and I'm curious. You know, I saw that machine hanging out behind you. Is that for flexibility? What do you do? Like, what's your focus these days on the training side. Are you in court as you're getting older? Are you incorporating more around? Like, the not longevity, but more round, just less mass and more just, you know, practical, like old people
stretching, like, what are you doing? Watching? A lot of Richard Simmons videos? Yeah, exactly. I am.
For people who can't see this. There is a pull-up bar within the door jambs behind me. And so the design is such that as you pulled down on it, the physics of the engineering cause it to sort of buckle out words without damaging the inside of the door frame. So it's a cool design. It's a really elegant design. You can find them on Amazon and I use that for hanging and really just decompress.
Pressing or compressing depending on how you look at it my back scapula and also just relieving my lower back and hip flexors from sitting for too long period of time, my priorities from a training perspective right now, I would say I can just lay it out. Pretty simply would be conventional weight training once or twice a week. Probably? No, more than that. It's really to maintain muscle mass. Perhaps build a
Muscle mass and also to make it a little easier to maintain healthy glucose levels, right? So if you are increasing your muscular Mass, particularly, if you're doing these workouts prior to a meal, your glucose disposal is just going to be improved like glute for Transporters and so on will be more effective at doing their job.
So, let's say once or twice a week on top of that right now. My activities are kind of seasonal these days and they're seasonal and part, because I really want to identify types of exercise that, not only, I enjoy, but that I can do with my girlfriend and that's actually a byproduct of a conversation, at one point, with an incredible trainer performance coach, and all around hilarious, guy named Kelly Starrett, who's a beast, like when he turned, I think, when he turned 40, he
Braided by running the quad Dipsy, which is an ultra marathon, by the way, he weighs like, 220, or 230 pounds. He's extremely muscular crazy doing a standing back flip and like cleaning and jerking 350 pounds or something like that. That's how he celebrated, his 40th birthday. Just to give you an idea for this guy's, it's a party yet to party and great guy. The ready State, you can look him up Kelly Starrett and he was telling me about how he is, prioritized activities.
He's with his wife, over everything else. He's like once you have kids, you got a family, you've got business demands, anything that you choose outside of that is pulling you away from time with your wife or your family. And so he's really trying to prioritize that and before I have kids. I'm hoping to develop some of those habits. So for instance rock climbing is something that I'm doing more and more and absolutely love for basically everything that involves pulling, you're going to check the box. And I really, really
Joy. It's very cognitively challenging to I mean, it's like putting together like an upside-down Tetris. Yeah.
I mean, will they call them? They literally call them problems, right? It's a bouldering. They're called problems because it sit there and spend 15 minutes thinking about what you can do before you even attempt
it. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I really enjoy that. And if so will will go to the climbing gym two or three times a week. Usually the lifting will happen after the climbing in the same gem kettlebells.
Swings once or twice a week. I'm going to get around to answering your macro question. These are all mostly strength and muscle mass focused. Yeah, but the climbing does help with Mobility. So I would say that my focus more than focusing on flexibility which invokes this image of passive stretching. Now laying on the ground with your legs split and, like Reaching Forward and just kind of hanging out there for 60 seconds. 90 seconds there. Van Dam moment, Van Dam fan.
Everybody wants to do the Van Damme though.
Everybody wants to do the Van Damme. This is true. However, where I have had with people would consider the greatest flexibility gains and also just the most practical transfer of seeming, more limber. It's been through waited Mobility. So acroyoga for instance, involves a lot of pressing handstand work, inversion a lot of pressing and in the process of doing something like a curio, go for the legs and the hips or rock climbing for
Or less of the upper body but more the hips. No. Way that you rotate to improve your reach and so on has been really, really helpful. There's something called Jefferson curls that you can do and you must do very safely. I describe how to do it. Via someone named coach summer, who is the former men's team men's national team coach? How to do something called a Jefferson curl, which is effectively a slow rounded back, stiff leg deadlift.
Using very light weights, be kind of roll down. Almost, as you would do in a yoga class, vertebra by vertebra, and when you get more comfortable underweight in these and ranges of movement, then your body effectively says, oh, okay. Now that we've developed some strength. In this end range. We can extend the end range
and so saying so it opens up naturally a little bit.
Once you've yeah supporting structure there. Exactly. And it relates to the Golgi tendon, reflex and all sorts of things. But when I am trying to develop,
Leti. My question is, usually how do I actually develop strength at my current limitation? And that's also part of the reason why something called PNF is very effective for stretching, which is a more active, sort of contract and release based form of stretching.
What does pmf? What does that stand for
proprioceptive neuromuscular facilitation? I believe it's been a few decades since I've thought of it, but pmf usually I shouldn't say usually but
Very often involves partner stretching where someone would take, for instance, your leg extended you be laying on your back, one leg is extended above you, they would push it forward until you reach the end range of your hamstring. You would then push against them for say, 7 seconds, and then relax and then they would increase the stretch and you would go a bit further. And then you repeat that.
Is this? What you see, like NBA players like before, they're about to go into a game. You see them kind of laying on their back, and they have a trainer come in and the little pushing the leg and
There's always a trainer kind of supporting leg and pushing it in there. Pushing against it. Is that the same type of stretching or is that
different? Good question, I would suspect it's different just because P and F can be taxing and you would spread it out much like you would spread out weight training. So you wouldn't you wouldn't? As far as I know, you wouldn't do pmf every day. For instance, you would, you do pmf few times a week. So my focus right now is
Is gonna sound kind of funny because it's so simplistic, but just feeling good because there are times when I've been huge, right. I mean, I weigh a hundred seventy pounds right now. I've been 220 pounds and not fat me huge, but did I feel comfortable walking around? No, I couldn't turn my head. I was like a turtle, you know, I don't like yeah rotate at the feet. I mean it is ridiculous. So being comfortable. I'm doing a lot of weighted hiking also so it's a Mobility meaning strengthen the end, ranges strength training and
Then Ruck sacking which I love doing when you have access to hiking trails, which you do in in Oregon
certainly it is that what that one backpack? We talked about a long time ago. Use this weighted backpack you take with you,
it is yeah. Goruck. So goruck is the brand. I use their many other brands. You can get vests personally. Don't love the vest if you're going to run with these things, which I'm never going to do then, I think the best probably make more sense, but I prefer to use the weighted backpacks and I
Twenty pound of 35, pound of 45 pound. And then you can add different links to that. Depending it is a lot harder than people might think. And what you don't want to do, is what I did in San Francisco. The very first time I got a weighted vest and I was like, well at the time I was really big so I can squat X number of pounds for y number of reps. No problem. I'm just going to put on a 60 pound weight vest and then I very, very stupidly just started walking with no plan, right? I was like, well, I'll just walk and then I start getting tired of turn around.
And I kept walking and I got to the point where it hurts so much that I had to take it off. And I was like, well, how do I get this home? I was like two miles away. So I had to leave the weight vest on a sidewalk and then again, as like if anybody steals as they deserve it, like they can if somebody's going to if somebody's gonna steal, 60 pound weight, vest like good for them because clearly they have more endurance than I do. So then I had to walk back. Sort of do the Walk of Shame back to my house without this vest, and then get a car and go pick it up.
But very big on on the rocking very, very big. And honestly these days, also this might sound like a cop out, but for a long time, my Maxim was as far as resistance training goes, trying to failure. Right? Right. One set, train to failure there. Many, many, many ways to build strength. I'm not saying that is the one and only way. Some people get very dogmatic about these things. It's just for bang for the buck, like per minute of workout time. That's a great approach. How
However, as I have got a little bit older and I've been looking at things like time outside. Time in nature, sun exposure. I'm not trying to optimize to get it under 20 minutes for under 30 minutes. I actually enjoy the process of doing it. So those are a few of the ways that I don't think. Let me ask you a couple
questions there. I'm curious about. So it granted, this information is a bit dated, but I was, I was climbing a lot in my youth and did quite a bit of it.
Or an outdoor. Yep, and one of the things, one of the people that I trained with it was like a, you know, Semi-Pro climber that would tell me a couple things, one every ounce of muscle. He considered to be a potential negative and that it's some its weight that can
pull you off the wall
because in his mind, he's like it's dense weight and you want to be as lean as possible. And then the second piece was that he was a big fan of low weight High.
Yep, so just, you know, I mean the guy could do a hundred Pope's in a row was just like insane. Right? I'm curious as at the pup. Yeah, it's
Molly, gonna crazy. She doesn't like the idea of hundred pull-ups. Apparently. I'm curious though. What
is your style? Like if you're not going for mass and you're going for lean strength, it's not about gaining. You're not eating really high protein then or what are you? What are you doing
there?
Well, there are also many, many, many, many different ways to train, and I don't think I have particular Insight when it comes to climbing. Although I have asked around, I've taken lessons and have thought about it. So, my short answer is I'm doing
Some high rep work. Like the kettlebell swings are generally going to be higher repetition and I'm using a 53 pound. And then maybe a 72 pound kettlebell doing two in one hand, its wings.
You get a lot out of that exercise. Then when I'm doing other types of exercises like inversion training. We're doing handstand work, where I'm really developing actually a lot of finger, strength, and shoulder extension, kind of bringing your shoulders to your ears. If your hands were extended over your head for instance, as well as some of the training for bouldering specifically, it's super short duration. So you could view that almost as you would view powerlifting. I'm trying.
Avoid a burn generally speaking and those types of scenarios and I'm looking to build kind of Neroli based strength better recruitment of motor units and things like that. So, I'm combining the two but certainly, I agree with your friend, a hundred percent like the more weight. You got to haul up that wall. The more the harder you're going to have to work. It's like cycling like cyclists. Do not want to have larger bodies. It's just right, drag. That's all it is. And for me right now.
I am perfectly happy to be smaller and strong and working on things like climbing. There's no need for me to be large and a lot of people don't want to be muscularly large, but it's hard to find anyone who wants to be weak. I think everybody would like to be strong and you can develop incredible relative strength.
And really develop yourself as a strength athlete, while adding minimal body mass, even as a male you can add that.
I got to say man. The biggest change for me going into my 40s. That is been absolutely fantastic. Well, let me stop for a second jump back, you know, I've got three year old a two-year-old when Zelda started getting a decent size and when you have a little toddler running at you at full speed and they want you to like catch them and you like
Especially when it's not straight on its kind of that angle in your do, one of his one arm like like like touchdown like like football catches with the one hand like you're doing that with like a, you know, 25 tunnel dollar, whatever. I literally like have throw my back out like five times like to where I am on the ground in cannot move and I had to crawl to my bed and lay there for like a day and a half sestero and it dude, it is like when you I never knew that back pain because you know, when you're a kid, you're jumping off, walls are doing all kinds of crazy.
See. Shit, like you're, you know, I was jumping off my house and of the trampoline tiger, and then you get older and you realize like things just start breaking and back pain is a real thing. I mean, I know you've had some back issues in the past, like it is no joke and I needed to fix it. So, I started doing Pilates twice a week and I stuck with it and it's been about six months now, maybe five months, and I haven't had a single issue. I have not had a single issue since developing that core. It is crazy and I can
I can toss the little kids around as much or more than I could back. Then it's just insane to me because I guess I was always like you well, I would always go to the gym be like, okay biceps triceps chest back out, right? And like same, you know our shoulders to you know, and like the same workout every single time and like you look in the mirror, you're like, yeah. I look pretty good. But then didn't like, you know, your toddler take that
perhaps. Yeah exactly. Do you do in person or do?
You do virtual over Zoom, man. I also she's amazing. Yeah, don't mention her name because then she'll get the hug of death. But I want a referral after we finish because I have been. And this is where a lot of our listeners are probably, like, oh my God, they've totally lost it. But Pilates, really technical Pilates. It is not easy, and that's right. I have never felt better than when I am doing a combination. If I look back.
Act like when I have felt the strongest, the fastest, the most limber. It's when I was doing a combination of Olympic weightlifting Pilates and acroyoga. I have felt so limber and simultaneously strong at all of these, crazy and ranges and the plot. He's with a really technical trainer is incredibly incredibly beneficial. And there's a lot of carryover in the same way, the gymnastic strength training.
Allah - summer Som mer has a lot of carryover. So despite the connotations that people might have associated with that word Pilates and there's a lot of ridiculous, ridiculous stuff also done. Technically. It is really hard. I'll give you an example from our last summer. I was doing Pilates over zoom and a friend of mine was visiting. Who is a former International level competitor in kickboxing.
Went to the World Championships multiple times was also high level athlete a number of other sports and he's at fit guy had Decades of competition and we got halfway through this plot, his class and he was thinking, sort of some type of kind of side, plank Bridge doing stuff with his obliques, and he
just, he just collapsed and he's
like, Jesus Christ. This is embarrassing,
honey. This is great. It is not easy
know. So I
I'm definitely a proponent strong proponent. Yeah, it
really appreciate all those little small muscles that you never really pay attention to. And it just like, yeah. The and it is such a
little, a good teacher, will get in there
and really help you work. All those little tiny stabilizing muscles. Yeah, and yeah, it's just fantastic. Anyway that if anyone out there is having back issues. I highly
recommend. Check it out. And, you know, I think it's easy for people who
Lift weight in some fashion, to be heavily biased against.
Body weight or calisthenic type exercises and it's very easy for people who do bodyweight calisthenic type exercises, including something like rock climbing to glance askance at people who are lifting weights. And I think they are very very complementary. But man, I have seen some gigantic body builders and powerlifters do a yoga class and just end up on the floor because it is a different exercise.
Sighs. So I do think they complement each other very, very well.
Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show.
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All right. I say with a sigh blockchain.
Yeah, I fucked him ever make his own in Ft. I
would like your advice here because I'm fascinated by enough T's. I have tracked them very closely. Although I stopped following it quite as closely maybe a month or two ago.
I do find the
Technology, very interesting. Conceptually. I think there are many, many, many, many, many applications of entities, while outside of say artwork. And I've also made some Investments and open say, for instance, which I think there was a question on Twitter also about picks and shovels and so on. I think that open see not too narrowly, put it into that category, but I do think that they're in a very good position to establish themselves as a dominant player. Regardless of what types of
Standards might be developed for instance. All of that said, great interest. So why the hell have I not done it? I've not done it in part because there has been this Mad Dash and money grab related to n of T is and I don't want to be perceived nor do I. Maybe subconsciously even want to be driven by trying to capitalize on a hugely speculative bubble, right? Where the goal is not to enjoy the artwork, the goal is to resell the artwork for more and
That's fine. I mean it's fine that a market exists. That's true. In a lot of traditional art as well. Or I would say less digital and ft type of art, so I would love to create an NF T just to learn more about the process, right to meant my own ft and to go through, with all of it may be more than one nft. I would be curious to know how you would
Think about that. If you were in my shoes or in your own shoes for that matter button in my shoes because I'm giving you my confessional
here. I mean, I think that within ft's there, you're right. It is a Mad Dash by a lot of people, a lot of celebrities entering the space and they are quick to attach their name to a project often times. They're not even the ones doing the artwork, which is also just kind of like crazy to me. Like, so you'll have a list celebrity come in. Say, I'm releasing it of
Yeah, and it's like, my, I did a partnership with this person and it's like this beautifully rendered 3D animated thing. And you're like, yeah, they actually never touch the computer, did they? Yes, Uncle, you know, it's like they're just associating their name with it, which
also happens in more traditional art. If anyone hasn't seen, the price of everything, I think might be the price of anything price of everything though. I believe or the price of anything is documentary that goes into some of this but yeah,
it's oh I have to watch that you'll love it. You'll also Yeah, so basically yes, there is some of that
Also, but at the same time, though, you have some really legitimate kind of emerging artists that are using in ft's as this new medium and I have collector friends that are not treating it like let's just grab in a flip, but they're going to be holding on it too for many, many decades. So there's a combination of both that are happening for someone in your position. You're right. There's the risk that you run is that you launch the tim-tim in ft. And it's like, oh great Tim's.
You know, a half a million dollars off selling this nft or whatever. It ends up going for. He just did it for the money. Grab, right? So I think if anything man, you don't need the money like just do it for charity. Yeah, I don't know.
But let's take that as an example. Okay. So 500k, what the hell would I sell for 500k? Well, you're a good artist. The understanding that a lot of things have sold for. I mean, there was a, there was, you know, people salt one piece, this collage 469 million dollars, right? So there's certainly, he's an incredible artist. First. I should I should say like, the guy is a machine.
And also virtuous. And what he does and also it gets sanely
funny. Yeah, if you had people on the show yet, or no, I have it. The guy is just a variety. He's
amazing. Yeah. And good for him, you know, because he well people can look up a story but I mean, created every day for what? Five thousand a straight, something like that
was not clearly. Not doing it for the money when he's got start. I
could not be, I could not be happier. That people like him are doing well, in this environment. I have some graphic art ability I could
Do something that was graphically inclined.
You basically have a few different Avenues to explore one. I love the, putting it underneath the charity, hundred proceeds. Go to charity. Fantastic. Boom. You check that box. No one's going to complain. The second thing is, what do you do? Do you take existing media that you have? So maybe it's a portion of one of your episodes. Maybe it's a something that you said, one time that has resonated with a lot of people that is you want to memorialize in a audio clip with a
Cover art of your podcast or I
think you can do anything you want to look at pisode love. Yeah, exactly.
I better get these on that bitch. I interviewed you. So yeah, definitely split the royalties with whoever else on the show. No, but the other thing is, like, you are an artist like I've seen some of your stuff you can you can do some amazing things or you could get super artsy. You can like mash a body part on a piece of
paper and skinny of Hardcore fan.
You get all Art Basel. Yeah, type of banana on a wall. Smash a body part against it itself or female. There you go, man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean a lot of people don't know this probably but I want to be a comic book penciler for probably ten years. So spend a lot of time looking at graphic art was an illustrator for period of time. So I suppose I could do that. Listen.
I love Gary Vee. I love him. He's a good friend of ours. You've seen his art out there, you know, he's proud.
The lefties like did I've seen your art to? I would say that you have the skills to put out your own entities. Like the Gary can do it. You can do it brother. Like
seriously. Yeah, and I'm so grateful to people who are experimenting and pioneering and trying all these various things in the space because not everything is going to work, certain things will work. And I feel like also, it's really, really hard to perhaps. Look at it through this lens, but with nft, he's like, yes, there's there are
going to be some amazing things. There's also going to be a lot of noise, but it's kind of like tech companies in 99 or 2000. So yes, someone could say, all of those companies were garbage, but, you know, amidst all the noise. You had the Googles and the Amazons, right? That's right. And I don't know if it was in 90,000 or shortly thereafter, but it was it was in the same window and those are like world-changers, right? Those are history changers in a lot of
ways.
The thing is it's just a new canvas type. I don't see it as like there's a shit ton of like how many craft fairs have you been to where you go down. It's like, oh, the Sunday craft fair. And you got to be like, oh my God, there's like people are paying like yeah. Mister like I would never buy that, right? So it's just that's happening in the world of in of teas, right anymore Photoshop and the export and save is Ping file can create a Nifty know. So anyone and everyone can participate. I think that's a good thing and there will be some
Amazing kind of cream that rises to the top and that is, you know, we're already starting to see it. There's a handful of names out there that are in Ft, kind of native that are starting to gain a lot of momentum and serious collectors and followings and ex-cop. He's a great example of an artist that puts out. These just crazy, almost seizure-inducing flashing and ftes know they're insane, but it's been doing it since day one and now some of his work,
Of ones are selling for over a million dollars Christie's and they're going on some of the major auction houses in there just for him. A handful of those folks that are that are doing some really unique things in this space. So it's not all crap. I guess is what I'm trying to think, art blocks to is another one to, to check out on the generative side. They are kind of like to answer your question about. How do you sift through all the crap? I don't know if you have that
question, but I will answer it. I'll let you create my questions for
me exactly. Essentially our blocks. They have this editorial kind of bored of other artists.
It's that then kind of vote in who gets accepted and and put on the platform. And so, the curated side is, are the only people that meet that bar. And I think we're going to see more
of that. There's a lot of that in the curated marketplaces rise. A lot. Exactly.
What is the story with the
artwork on your
Your Twitter, your Twitter. Oh, my, my Twitter and that June shines. Gonna my head. Are you
drinking right now? Are you really drinking? Or were you just I think
I just, I just scold one. Yeah, I'm good. That's amazing. What is this artwork on your Twist of what? You're
seeing? Right there. Looks like a bunch of pills. Yeah. That's it. That's a squiggly. So this is crazy. Essentially, if I were talking about our block so that
Piece of art right? There is the very first project launched on our blocks and it is this little squiggly and it looks very simple, like a little, tiny snake, a multicolored snake. And essentially what our blocks is. It's a generative art
platform. So find what tentative? No is for folk. Yeah,
let's let's define that. So basically, if you think about traditional art, it's always an artist. They sit down, they do something, they meant it, they painted on canvas, whatever it may be, and the artwork is, you know,
Quote done, and then that is in sold. Generative art is essentially a artist that comes in and says, I'm going to write an algorithm. That is a piece of math that will Define the basic parameters of a piece of art, but I'm going to introduce some Randomness to it. And that Randomness is going to be created by the end user. So when you click to Mint, a piece of generative art, you are then putting that time code that kind of time stamp of Randomness into the algorithm and then
The algorithm spits out your unique piece of art, so you have no idea what you're going to get until it actually arrives in your wallet. And so what you're seeing there, that little squiggly is something that I mented. I didn't know what it was going to be, and some of them have more rare attributes than others. Different colors, different thicknesses and people collect them because they love the kind of luck of the draw and what you're going to get. And they loved the output because sometimes the output is even more interesting than what the original artist could have ever contemplated when writing.
Initial
algorithm. I think it is a really interesting new form of art that can be captured and held by the blockchain because generative art has been around for a long time, you know, people have been doing computer generative art and they would always, like, you could go to showrooms and they would have like, you know, computer screens are monitors up showing off this stuff and it was always a computer science. He kind of thing over the last 20 years, but there was never a way to capture that and save it. I mean you could save it as a file but then you know blockchain actually provided a way to say, okay.
A the output is now captured and saved in the blockchain. It is a unique asset that can then be transferred and traded, so it's actually essentially a new form of our new art
form. We can give you title to this unique digital asset. Exactly.
So this is kind of a new form that is only possible or enabled by the blockchain which I think is really fun, you know, and so that's why it's getting a lot of traction. I'll give you a sense of how quickly this Market is growing. So our blocks two months ago did around,
Two million and secondary sales of all their works of art last month because we're just getting into July now. Last month, they did over 9 million in secondary sale. It's really taking off. So I think it's like third it's like NBA top shots crypto punks. And then I think our blocks is the third platform. Say that one more time in be a top shots like the MBA Collective. That's number one. It depends on the month because sometimes crypto Punk's or some other project will appear, that is, you know, massive and blows up. But you know, crypto Punk's is the
a original not generative art, but it was the original kind of randomly created. I guess you could consider it kind of jumped up in some way, but they were random output was, was captured with all these damn attribute. People can check
it out at larvae. Labs.com. Larvae Labs, is amazing. I mean, they, they do all sorts of fascinating
stuff, really cool stuff. And, and, you know, that Jay-Z set his Twitter bio to a crypto Punk, a
couple weeks ago. Did not know that. Wow. Let me take a
yes, take a look at that. That's a big deal. That's a big deal.
Huh? Wow, go Jersey. It's one way to add some value to the market. You're participating. And
I feel that it's silly for people to say this is just all hype, you know, and there is a lot of that out there. They're like, oh this is just going to go away. It's funny. If you look at like historically when these new mediums come out like what happens and what people say, I actually did a bit of research on all this and I don't know if you knew this but back in the wind canvas was first.
Oost before that was largely like Cathedral wall and like wooden mostly on wooden planks that you still there. Tim. I lost you.
Well, that was fucking crazy. My house. Got hit by lightning in the whole whole show. Came to a grinding halt.
Did your house actually get? It was at your house. I got it done. Clear. Its I
know it's unclear where there was a massive thunderstorm and lightning and thunder all around. This remote house at an undisclosed location and I'm in the middle of fucking nowhere for context and everything just went out and I was like,
Oh, yeah, this is why you have a generator. This is why of generators in places like Austin where I was the only house on my street with power during the snowpocalypse. It's incredible. We'll come back to Jay Z and the Crypt of function a second, but it's just incredible. How fragile
The infrastructure around us actually is it's yeah. I
mean I have the same thing. I lost power for seven days in Portland during this last winter storm. We had a nice chat, it took
everything that's wild. It's wild and you know, I do worry about or think a good amount about attacks on the power grid cyber attacks on the power grid and there's actually a book that I highly suggest people check out called.
It's out subtitle a Cyber attack and Nation unprepared, surviving the aftermath by Ted Koppel and it will scare the shit out of you
say dude. I feel like these these types of things just make one more paranoid, you know,
you've heard the expression just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you which isn't right. It isn't intended to be a justification for like building spider holes in the back of your house.
And going really above and beyond the Call of Duty, to ridiculous lengths to prep in any sense, but having some basic provisions and basic backup plans in case of disaster, I think it's pretty smart. I mean, we most of us have fire extinguishers. We hope never to use them, but we recognize that having one for a hundred bucks or less. 20 bucks is worth the downside protection. Similarly, wearing seat belts. Like when's the last time you had a head-on collision? Not recently.
Only but we all receive thoughts because it's relatively easy to do that and mitigate high levels of downside. I think generators fall in that category. I think back up water falls in that category. It's just a very present reminder, for me of just how, if we saw it during or personally. I saw during Hurricane Sandy. When I was working on a chapter related to disaster preparedness in the 4-Hour Chef. There's an extensive section on that which seems to not match at all with anything related to cooking.
Cooking or chefs, but in fact does relate, it was kind of too long-winded to explain, but I was going back and forth of my editor at the time. And they're like, look, Tim. I'm into prepping and even for me, this seems ridiculous. And then what happened? Hurricane, Sandy hit and everything was totaled, and people in New York were going without power. And
I just think it's a good pop quiz from the universe lightweight way when your power goes out in this way. It's all right. How much water do you have? How much ability do you have to charge your devices without access to the power grid? It's a super basic stuff, right? Because I was thinking, okay, weird. We were going to record this, because we were texting back and forth. But as soon as the power went out, what happened? All the cell towers were overwhelmed. So my bars went from like three to one immediately and as well.
You suggested, we could record via phone like, have the conversation and just record locally and QuickTime, which is what we're going to do. But that also you have to think out to like the tertiary effects of something like that
and sure up until a certain point where you're just like, this is a butyl. That's the problem I have is like, where do you, where do you draw? The line will get back up water at home. I mean, I have like, you have like a week of water for your
family.
No, it's like a few hundred bucks, man. You should definitely do that. Well, here's the deal. Do I need a week
of water bike? Well, give an example. So in Austin, Texas, Urban multiple boil warnings where there are high levels of rain, some type of flooding, the Municipal Water treatment facilities, become overwhelmed and they issue a boil warning. So you can drink the water as long as you boil it,
but I have a HEPA, not have that, but I have the equivalent of that, on the water side that does 99.99% of viruses.
And bacteria, so I have like the crazy over-the-top like Water Sanitation. Like coming
into the house. You can just like, take your kids diapers and recycle it and Iran. Did you drinking? It? Doesn't matter. Yeah,
just check exactly. I can just pee in the thing. It just works. So yeah, you know, it's I just do these
things. I'm like, why not have a few hundred bucks of distilled
water, but I get it. I have. I have basically I would say probably about four or five days worth of
water. That's good. Just for you. You're probably like that for themselves.
I can get in a car and drive someplace, where there's water. No, but that's the thing though, is, I can in Austin. It was like, within 24 hours, all water at every grocery store was gone. So it just raises interesting questions for me, right? Because then you're like, okay. Well, if that happens what our people can do, they're going to think about driving outside the limits of Austin. Okay, so then what and then what and then what? But I don't think I'm that crazy about it. I don't think that's crazy. No, I'm not like what he's normal walking around downtown in a Ghillie suit or something.
Do you have a gas mask? I
do not have a gas mask. I had one in San Francisco and I don't have one. Do you have a gas mask? I do
not. Do you have any type of full body virus protection suit like a
hazmat suit? Oh, yeah, do you
I'll see you. Not that bad. Yeah. I've got a
couple of kids where I'm from 9:00 to 5:00 and it's pretty standard and there was no salt. No, I don't have those in part because right now I'm in a very rural environment. I'm in the middle of nowhere, but
You realize quickly also, without the amenities of a city. Centre how dependent you are on things that are easy to take for granted like power or telecommunications. And if tree goes down and lands on the lines like you're just out of luck until it gets fixed. Yeah.
Yeah. I'm on the wait list from those Tesla powerwall. Yeah. Those are cool. I think you're cool. They're all backordered. Exactly. Right,
but then, the point one percent of poop in your water.
Kill you. Let's kick some ass to get your man. Drink it all, take it all his life, extension drugs. And then the poopy water is going to get you. Yeah, exactly. All right, so Jay-Z, you know, I looked it up while I was fucking around and messing around and for those who haven't seen it. Mr. Carter at SC. It's actually surprisingly hard to find on Twitter despite that as 3 million followers and 0 following but Jay-Z does, in fact have a Cryptid Punk.
Okay as his profile pic, is that the right term to use? Yeah, that's wild to me. When did that happen? A couple weeks back to 3 weeks
ago cause it's a bit. Yeah, big big validation, big validation acid.
I'm sure if he owns one or Twenty of those that he just 3x to his investment probably or does that not translate? Like what types of things affect?
The pricing Dynamics for the crypto punks and people can look at this if they go to larva labs.com and then go to projects and click on crypto punks. You can look at the top sales. These things have been covered everywhere and like you said, there are the there, the OG is the kind of first edition there, like the model, T's of n FTS. So you can look at largest sales.
So right now to give people an idea and when you look at, these people are going to just end up gaping, Jaws falling to the floor. Looking at these things and wondering why on Earth an alien with a pipe, in his mouth would be worth seven point five seven million.
That's at data dollars outdated. Oh, yeah. There's been a lien sale now at Sotheby's for 13 million.
Wow, that's crazy. I see. So off
platform and these are 20 by 20 pixels. Little things to these are not
Massive images. They're just so
they just happen to be the first. Yeah, just imagine like playing spy hunter or one of these loadrunner one of these really old games and the graphics associate with that. That's basically what you're looking at because that's outdated. So I see. So the this
is an I know these. These
transactions have taken place off of the platform of, that's right over Labs. I got it. So this is not an accurate reflection at all of the top
sales, right? Because the top sales are now going off to Sotheby's and Christie's.
Christie's and the traditional auction houses are stepping in and saying actually we consider and ft's to be real art. We're going to offer them to our collectors which surprise surprise as you can imagine the exactly surprise surprise turns out, they also charge a 20% commission. Yeah, very
secure. Reasonable 20% commission.
Suddenly, they aren't, you know, but no there it's cool. It's cool that they Embrace this and they put their stamp of approval. They've also done that with a handful of other projects. Now, some other really top artists in the end.
Space. So
yeah, it sucks. It is just to be really on top of it. I mean, they were kind of ahead of the curve with the nft s for sure. I mean, they're really able to capture a lot of that market very quickly at the high end. So I have to give them credit for that. So it looks like now and maybe you can explain to people because I know you I know you have the explanation but we're looking at the largest sales at larvae labs.com, crypto punks and you've got to aliens.
So, seven point five, seven million, and some point five eight million respectively, then you've got for gorillas then an alien. Then a something I can't even identify. I don't even know why they're Apes by the
way.
Thank you. Alright, we got it for apes and alien. Number eight, just looks like like a pediatric cancer patient. I don't know what this, I've no idea what that is. Then a bunch of aliens, not aliens. This is what I get for having too many hard kombuchas on my random show.
For. I'm down at the, you're looking at the top. 10 top 12. I'm gonna top. Yeah. All right. So, what is number eight?
What is number, eight? Yeah,
number eight. Number number six. Four eight seven. So it just
looks like a plain person right in the reason why that one is so valuable, is it is because it has zero attributes. So there was nothing applied to it.
So
if you sort by attributes, there's only I think like seven or eight that actually have zero like that. Got it. Okay, that looks like just like a bald
person. Yeah, it'll it'll blow people's minds to look at this in some of the transactions that are going on. So
Have all of the highest price transactions left. This platform and moved more to the auction houses
and so on. Yeah, that's right. Any time someone has one of these aliens. Now, they know it's going to fetch double-digit millions of dollars. And so they want to obviously get as many collectors bidding as possible. And what better way to bring in the old money into the game than to go with a Christie's or Sotheby's and pull from that collector base. Yeah. So that's that's been the
approach wild. So wild that's really
Ali. It strikes me as significant. Maybe I'm over waiting it. That Jay-Z has as his profile pic a crypto Punk. Am I over stating that it's just that mean that, that is really pretty, on the nose. Right? I mean, it's not subtle.
I think it. It also speaks to kind of what's going on behind the scenes. I mean, Jay Z has a music company called title. Yep, which is a big streaming provider on the music side, and they recently,
Sold that to square, which Jack Dorsey is CEO and founder of. And also obviously CEO of Twitter square is now I believe the number two largest purchaser of Bitcoin because people use square cash app to buy Bitcoin. As you can imagine. There's been a lot of talk around how artists can potentially monetize songs using an ftes or other works of art using an ftes and Jackson the middle of all that. So it would not surprise.
Sighs me that the square cash app eventually turns into a way to Showcase and kind of purchase and trade. In of T's, there's been some rumors. Now that Twitter is going to jump into the nft game in some way. Jack famously, auctioned off his first tweet for millions of dollars and turned it into an N of T. That's cool. So, let's go, you know, Jay Z's in the mix of all of this. So yeah, I'm sure he's kind of learning what's going on. And obviously you have to come back to the original project which Define the nft standard which is crypto punks.
Yeah, so wild, what do you foresee as developments in the crypto or Block Chain space or what? Are you watching closely? Well, I think it's
it's funny because people get so caught up in these kind of Bull and Bear markets and watching these coins and say like, oh, it's crazy. It's down 20%, It's up 20% and I try not to get caught up in the weeds there and just zoom out even further because I think once you do that, the line start to smooth out a bit and you understand that.
We're in the very early kind of first Innings of this entire rewriting of the financial stack. And so, you know, that's part of the reason why I agreed the podcast to cover these things is because there's just so much going on right now. Yeah, we need to bring the average consumer up to speed, so they know how to get into this stuff early before. It's a, you know, on paypal.com, which is what Bitcoin in the theorem are now, you
know that modern underscore fi,
You mean? Oh, that's my Twitter. Yeah, just modern. Modern
Finance. Modern dot Finance. Modern Finance podcast. Check it out folks on the web on the tweets on the Twitter's. It's at modern underscore fi. All right, so you're tracking that is you're saying, people get caught up in the micro-cycles, right? That's right. And they think it's over. Fairweather, speculators are going to get their faces ripped off and panic, and then end up in a bad position.
It's because they're always buying at the highs and selling at the
Lowe's, you know, I mean, that's a very common thing here. And I mean Tim, you know this man, you bought in right, when everything crashed, or just before it crashed, I did. But you got decimated for about four
years? I did. Yes. I did. Yes. I did. I came in in probably, what was it? Mid-2017, something like that? And promptly got my face ripped
off, right? But you were smart. You didn't do anything. I was just like, there
isn't a compelling based on the thesis that I had to me, which is a fancy way of saying what I hoped would happen in the future.
Are based on a couple of assumptions. There was no real reason to sell, right? It was there are these really Jagged acute short-term moves, but if I actually had high conviction in the assumptions that let me to buy in the first place, it would be hypocritical and self-defeating to cell death point so I didn't sell. Yeah.
Yeah, and that was great because that ended up it's probably what up, at least five x or more since
since all that happened bits up a bit. Yeah. I mean, it's not up as much.
As it was, I guess end of April beginning may, but that's okay. That's okay. I mean, I think they're just these sort of hype and deflation cycles that you see in everything. And my biggest regrets in all of investing are, actually the times that I sold prematurely. It's not having invested in things. In other words. It's not, it's not having missed opportunities to invest its having not held the things I invested in for a
Pretty of time. Shopify shop spot is Shopify. Was a huge one. I mean that was my biggest misfire of all time was, but at the time that represented in absolute dollars really significant win for me to try to get to a point where I didn't have to be preoccupied with money. So it made sense. Write the logic of selling that actually made sense. Do I regret it? Yes, the, a better example would be in 2000.
Eight. When I had one stock that I put a bunch of my very double-digit percentage of my net worth into, can you guess what? It was and I put it in maybe in 2005.
WordPress, no, no, although I am an adviser to Wordpress diamond or rather to automatic, and I'm a big fan, but trying to think
of what you would have bought back then, maybe
Amazon. Yeah, I bought Amazon and like 2005, or something like that. Maybe a little bit later, taking a look right now. But
so wait, you regret that now, you know, regret, that was arrested
selling. It, I owe you sold it. I see years later. Did it when the
Subprime crisis landed and everything was just going through the floor and oil boy. That was a mistake. Should have held on to it and I didn't have clear rules for myself. Then it was right. I had rules for buying but not rules for holding or selling and I think people at least I get my, I have gotten myself into a lot of trouble by having rules for buying, which I sort of intuitively have a pretty good feeling for.
You haven't even better feeling for it. Honestly, you're just that's absolutely one of your mutant Powers, but then how long to hold when to sell having rules for that, in advance, is something that I have historically, not been as good at and that has been a big problem. Certainly with Amazon is sort of the textbook example of that, you know, selling 2008 on a panic and now it's who knows 5 or 10 x. I have no idea. Yeah.
Oops, but yes, alright, so coming back to blockchain.
Or crypto. I mean, they're sort of like, one. The ladders have contained within the former. What else you paying close attention to? Of course, you're observing the sort of mass behavior, right? And misbehavior, right? What else you
watching?
Yeah, I mean we do a lot of crypto investing at true Ventures. Wrong with partner over there. Yeah, so we probably deployed its a 50 million or so so far this year it just in crypto related deals. So that's a pretty decent chunk of our fund. So it's something that we track very closely and I would say the problem for the average consumer is that there's this a lot of garbage in there. This is a lot of crap. So, you know, I would say that unless you're educated and
Are really deep in the space and you're listening to all the podcasts and you're, you know, reading all the different coin desk every morning. And if you're at that level, then you can probably go out there and say, if you feel like it, you can go out and say I believe I see where the momentum is taking things. And so that's kind of what I do as a profession. Now, I don't recommend that people do that with their everyday, just random pic of a doggy coin because like all the, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of hype around these different.
Meme coins that are appearing and those come down crashing as fast as they go up. So we have a problem similar to NF T's where anyone can spin up a new coin which is a few modifications to some of the open source software, that's out there. Make a meme around it, pump it and then dump it and people get burned. So Kev Kev coin. Yeah, the case him Tim. Yeah. We attempt against Tim. Tim to against him Kev Kev killing. I mean we could like, literally I
Within an hour, we could launch a new Tim, Tim token and and it would be live. And then we could put some liquidity on unit swap. We could get a trading, we get people. I mean, that happens every single day. Yeah, it's really frustrating. But it is what it is. Is that unregulated market. There's a lot of stuff going on. It's super exciting. There's a lot of innovation happening, a lot of really high quality projects, but a lot of of crap to, you know, buyer beware, so you just have to be careful and on how you evaluate these different opportunities and definitely do not buy.
Into the memes that are out there. Like it's just that those are
Those are silly and I'm not saying that one of them isn't going to eventually, cuz there's this like fine line between community support and that turns into something real and a meme, right? And that's something that's being used to kind of pump and dump.
So would you would you consider Dogecoin a meme
coin?
It started off as a meme coin and I think that there are at record of it, but I really started
tweeting about the
do exactly Elan. Elan started pumping up the Doge. Well, here's the deal with those like I knew the founder really well had him on my podcast seven years ago or whatever it was and we talked about Dogecoin and it was a joke to initially. It was just like a fun like he set the supply super high. Everybody was using it to tip using these little bots on Reddit and
You know, I had literally millions and millions and millions of Dogecoin because they're worthless and I was tripping out, you know, ten thousand at a time here 5,000 over here, like it was just like we all did it. It was just fun, right? And it was just kind of like a way like a tip of the hat to someone like, has Monopoly money. Yeah, exactly. Monopoly money. So that has now evolved into had a really strong Community back. Then it died down for a few years and then the community came back and then Elon jumped on top of it.
But it's still lacking a few things, like the underlying developers that are working on it. Now. This could be changing and I've heard that they're seriously, considering refactoring the code base, but it was just a dead project that had minor bug fixes applied to it. So there was no real outside of it, being a quote-unquote meme coin and being hilarious and watching it. Go up in price, the technology stack that it was written on wasn't being. Well, it was being maintained just so that it didn't break. There was no
Innovation happening there. So that is not the future of currents at the future like currency, that is going to really be a real true utility has to have an active development Community behind it, supporting it and evolving it over time. And so that is happening on a handful of other projects. Not so much on Doge, but there is so much interest in Doge now and it is being listed on a bunch of other major exchanges. Again, I could see it wouldn't be crazy. If you said, Hey, Kevin guess what? Five years from now.
Now, they now have 5,000 active developers doing all these really funky, weird things on Doge. I'd be like, well, that makes sense because it had had the Community Drive, a lot of that, you know, but outside of Doge, they call me like the doggy coins. There are a bunch of other doggystyle coins, that are just buying these basically. Well, I'm sorry. Kim like there's similar similar, doggy client. I'm sorry that your mind went there.
Oh, do put that on me. Don't put that on me.
They're doggy themed coins that are just like literally just out there for to get people excited prices, go up the whales cell and, you know, it's it ends in tears in
tears.
So, all right. So,
Dogecoin that's not a primary position in the true Ventures portfolio. I'm guessing how it is. Yeah. Okay. How do you, well, actually, a number of questions? So, since we invoked the name of
Of the great Elan. You spend some time with you on, I have ever really not, but there are those who tribute the recent correction / crash to various tweets associated with the along, including one related to the environmental costs of Bitcoin. Some think that is overstated something that is just something it's understated. A lot of controversy around it. Then there are those who would say, you know, Ilan.
Is a small perhaps contributing factor but really it's just a overall macro run from risk assets. So even though people attribute the correction or some people do to that type of comms from Elan. It's not really accurate. And that it's really a macro Trend that happened to coincide at the same time. What are your thoughts? Do you have any thoughts on any of that?
Well, you'll on certainly carries a lot of weight or I think people
More recently, even though he's tweeted a few times about cryptocurrencies, since all this went down. And it didn't seem to really impact prices as much as it did back when he first started doing it. So I would say he probably has a little bit less way and people really got pissed off. Yeah, when when he did this, I think that, you know, listen, we had a massive run up over the last, you know, six months. So to see a sell-off or correction like that just totally makes sense to me. I don't know that I pin it all on Ilan. I think that's certainly his comments and pulling it out of, you know, Tess.
From accepting Bitcoin. And it's certainly sparked something that everyone was already thinking behind the scenes and that's true. You know, Bitcoin is a very dirty currency. I would say that I have read reports and I have talked to folks that are in the camp of, you know, they will point out that the mining operations have really led to a lot of renewable energy. So a lot of these Bitcoins around the world are placed in places where we
Renewable energy. Is there an In-Place and operated? Because it is the cheapest form of energy. Now, granted there are other places where it's running purely off of coal. So I don't know that I fully by that. So I think that I'd have to set that aside. I don't think that the underpinnings of Bitcoin are going to be re-written anytime soon. It is such a, you know, the fact that Satoshi disappeared. It's kind of like this. I know they have folks that are in charge but it's it's almost like don't touch it unless it's really broken. There's like just
You know, it's such a massive market cap, and it does one thing really well, which is just store of value. So while there is a lot of little additional add-ons that are helping its scale. No one is thinking about completely rewriting it from the ground up in the way that say they're doing one etherium like a theorem is being Rewritten right now to switch to proof of stake, from proof of work. So out of the dirty CPU GPU mining world into something. That is he's insanely clean and
More efficient. And that upgrade will take place sometime in the next year or so. So there are other cryptocurrencies that certainly realize that this is an issue and they want to get away from the useless. Well, I mean, it's a very you're also in some sense when you do this proof-of-work operations, that require a lot of CPU and GPU and are very power intensive. That is a how the security of the network is maintained. So they are useful in that sense. But we have, I just think we have better cleaner Tech now that we can apply.
The same problem. What are your hopes for Chia? If any and could you describe what G is? Yeah,
Scioscia is a cryptocurrency that was created by Bram Cohen, who is the inventor of BitTorrent? We all you know, remember BitTorrent from when we were pirating movies or whatever. Maybe it was. The kind of first peer-to-peer, elegant way to swap large files, Bram went on to create chia-chia is definitely, you know, it's one of ours.
Vestments a true self disclosure there too. I'm an investment. Yeah. The reason why we back Bram is because I mean there's a handful of Engineers that you if they raise their hand. They say I'm going to do something new. Yeah, he's you just realized that the calibers, an animal. Yeah, it's just, yeah. It just just one of the top tier engineers in the world. So you say, always say yes to something like that. So he's come up with a way to do proof of space, and proof of time. A blockchain that uses hard drives for farming. So he calls it. Farming and it
Julie part of the reason why I was attracted to it initially is because everyone has additional hard drive capacity. And you can turn a normal computer into a farming rig that goes out, and we'll actually plot and farm and do the same functions of a cryptocurrency meaning providing space as a way to protect the network rather than just GPU and CPU. And it is just so much more green uses like one one.
Thousandth of the amount of energy of Saved by using a Bitcoin CPU or GPU and potentially democratizes in a much more broader way. And so, what I mean by that is that, you know, if you were to compete in your to mine Bitcoin today, you would have to go out and buy a very custom kind of Asics, custom processor rig or really fast cheap you if you're mining on aetherium and spend thousands and thousands of dollars to go out and participate in the network. So you just can't use an off the shelf.
Of computer anymore. The way you could when it first launched, you know, in its first year or so. So now with something like GM and you know theorems moving this way as well with proof of steak. You don't really need the hardware requirements so you can go out and just use some extra hard drive space, join a pool and then you can be farming kind of instantly. So the number of active participants in the network goes up, which means it's more decentralized, which means it's better for overall security. So, rather than just,
It being controlled by several thousand, you know, the hope is with something like hea. You get hundreds of thousands of people participating in doing this farming and so far. It's it's been working quite well. I mean, they've got a lot of people. They had, you know, warning went out. Several big Publications wrote kind of warnings that hard drives were being sold out everywhere. So you couldn't go to like an electronic store like Best Buy was selling out of their top and two hard drives because people were using them for for mining on shh, and so there was going to be this massive hard drive shortage. So what western
Little stock like one up because of it and it was just, it's just crazy but it's wild, it's wild as well but it's I would say, you know, just playing both sides of the coin. Obviously I said I was a fan because we're investors but also, you know, it's early days for this. So I wouldn't go out and say, hey, buy a bunch of chia. If anything I would say just fire up an extra hard drive, they have sitting around and play with it and see what you think.
None of this is the best advice is to be clear. We are not registered investment advisors or are there. Professionals is for informational purposes. Only.
Only continue please.
Yes. Yeah. So I mean with all this stuff though, Tim like, you know, like when I walked you through some of that metamath stuff one time. It's like the only way to learn this stuff and to get into it and understand what you're buying rather just blindly buying is to play, put $100 in, go lose $100 or something crazy that you didn't understand, but by the end of it, you you do. And so that's where you learn. And I think it's most valuable piece of all
this. So in an ocean of options,
And again, this is you and the other partners at true have significant informational advantage and many other advantages. Compared to anyone almost anyone listening to this. So this is not intended to be advice. But just so I have a better understanding. How do you vet, how do you choose blockchain? / crypto Investments? Because there is so much out there.
There's this Paradox of choice. How do you choose things?
At this point, are there any particular checkboxes or criteria?
Yeah, a hundred percent. So, the way that I think about it is that first you have to say, where we've been and where we going. And so, when you start off the kind of where we been when these chains first launched, they had one utility. They were like a store of value in a way to send digital currency to, and from one wall to another right? That was Bitcoin for the first few years. And now when
You think about where we're going? There are just a whole slew of different Arenas that this blockchain technology has been applied to. So, you know, you have decentralized exchanges, you have, you know, the in FTS that we talked about in Market places around that all of the web, three kind of censorship resistant communication. Protocols. You have insanely high performance, Protocols are blockchains like Solana and some of the others that are out there and they could do
Mm transactions per second. And so what gets unlocked when you have that type of speed operating on a blockchain, then you have existing big Behemoth blockchains like aetherium and like how we're going to scale a theorem in the short term. So we talked about what they're called layer to scaling Solutions. The entire Financial stack is being Rewritten from the ground up. So thinking about, what is the future of checking and savings accounts? What does it mean to stream money to people in real time? And how does that work? And so, you know, there's a world where a star
two pitches not just recently where they figured out a way to stream money to people in real time. And so what that means is rather than going into work in like clocking in and you know, waiting two weeks to get paid, you clock in and money hits your account every 25 to 30 seconds in real time, as it's being earned. And so there's just like this complete rethinking of the distribution of financial assets. So what once was
Is let me pull up like Wells, Fargo right now, but if you pull up, like a big bank and you say Wells, Fargo Wikipedia and you take a look at the headcount that they have to employ to pull off a traditional so they have 7,200 branches in 2021. 13,000. ATMs and 268,000 employees. Yeah for Wells Fargo. So think about what that
payroll.
I must look like, yeah, so how much
mouths to feed a lot of mouths to feed and that that bloat, that is in the financial system. And so what do you get in return? You have a checking and savings account? You get some FDIC insurance was, we're just nice and you get absolutely nothing. You get no interest, I get that. It's nice that they handle fraud on the check side. And, you know, there's there's an up phone number to call in all of that. But all of that money that they're taking your money and letting it out on your behalf behind the scenes and they're
New for 2020 was seventy two point three four billion dollars for 2020. So that money now in a decentralized fashion on the blockchain where now you have some of these people writing things like Ave some of these lending platforms or you have like a block Phi, that is partially centralized and partially decentralized. You have these new Banks and new financial institutions in the new protocols that are emerging that
Take just a handful of people to write code manage and operate and then all that wealth creation is being distributed back to the individual. So I'm excited for the future of Finance because I think that, for example, you know, I've talked about block five before it is a company that is providing you and I have talked quite a bit about it. Yes. And block 5. For example, Zach. I had the CEO on my show, we talk about what they're really good at is these.
Counts, that give people real insane interest at right now. I think it's like 7.5% right now in stable coins, which just nuts. Like what are you gonna get from bang, if you keep $100 in your block fi account and then I don't mean this to be an app for Block by, I'm not going to put any affiliate code anywhere and anything and Tim's shown us or anything, but it's like it's essentially it's just out there giving you seven percent on your money on these on this table coins, which are u.s. Dollar coins, which don't change you want to worry about them going up.
Going down because they're able to go out and pass that savings. They don't have that massive overhead that a Traditional Bank would have and they just pass it right back to the end consumer, and so, a lot of these platforms. Will there be compound or Ave or some of these platforms, you can go and bring your cryptocurrency and you can lend it back to the platform and you'll get paid interest back to your wallet, which is just awesome. It's nice to see that. Finally, going back to the consumers versus just being kept by the big Banks.
Yeah, it's super fascinating to me and you introduced me to block Phi and have since become an investor and don't place a lot of bets in this space but the idea and who knows net-net like at the end of the day what the pie chart is going to look like. But the idea of a blockchain first.
Banking or finance companies, very interesting and it allows you to do certain things like offer this seven or seven point two, five percent or whatever. The the apy is on accounts that otherwise don't really exist because as you said, they're all of these intermediate.
Cost centers, including headcount associated with traditional banking that are just simply removed when you shift to this type of Technology. The ability to say, borrow based on your crypto currency assets or anything that's related. These are New Frontiers in a lot of respects. And that's part of what makes it super exciting. Obviously. Both of us are fans block Phi and many other things.
What are the risks that you foresee on the horizon? And this is a common question. I'm going to ask it because I think people will be interested in your answer. How much do you worry about sort of regulatory overstep or shut down? And so we've seen what's happened in China, of course, China is not the United States, but how concerning for someone who invests a lot or for a firm that invest a lot in crypto and blotching.
Is the regulatory side of
things. Honestly, I'm very much looking forward to regulation. I think it's going to be a great thing. The lack of clarity around how to treat certain types of Assets in this world is what's holding it back. I believe the big question to ask here is the one like you hinted at. What? China where is it? Does the US? Wake up one day and say actually cryptocurrencies illegal? Shut it all down and I just can't see that being the case here. It's too far.
Entrenched in into everything that we're doing every major Bank, whether they like it or not, is now embracing blockchain in some capacity. It's a fantastic. Underlying technology. So it would just be odd to say, we're Banning a certain type of Technology. Like I just can't see that happening the United States. I hope that there's more clarity because a lot of it is very confusing right now and to be fair, a lot of its being defined in real time. We don't know.
Know how to handle certain types of assets. There's just weird things coming out of this, like I'll give an example. There's a protocol called, Alchemy mix that are these self repaying loans. It sounds nuts. But in the world of defy, I mean, it's crazy, so I can easily was self repaying loans. Well, basically what it does is, it goes out and you come in and you take a certain amount of cryptocurrency, let's just say it's $10,000.
Right. And they take that entire principal and they go invest it into yield generating. Protocols that are out there in this world of decentralized finance and they instantly give you half of it back into straight. Let's just call the stable coin like a u.s. Dollar stable coin. So you take 10,000 they give you 5000 to go, do whatever you want with and because of the yield of they're able to generate on the entire principal. They take all of the interest payments and pay.
It back into the loan so that the pays itself off automatically and your, if the current rates, it's a little over two years and the loan just automatically pays itself back. So you're receiving your interest payments up front if that makes sense, but this is only something that would be possible in the world of defy where you're having smart contract. Work with smart contract, and not in traditional lending. It just wouldn't make sense because you're taking all of the benefit and giving back to the customer and
Additional lending, when you have mouths to feed as a mission, with the Wells, Fargo example, they would never give you that full. You know, they can tonight, they can write exactly. So this is like, they've only had, they're really making that mirror
seventy two billion,
right? Exactly. And the odd thing, though, is like these repayments are happening in near real time paying down the loan in near real-time. And so talk about like, all these little micro transactions that are occurring over that too.
Two years and change. Now, how do you treat those repayments? Who's paying them? And where they coming from? And what's your cost basis? And you can imagine like it just makes you go cross-eyed like that. No one in the IRS is going to tell you how to do this. Like this. This is never been defined before. How do you even file something like that with the IRS to explain to them what you're doing to? I
mean, even even handling basic crypto stuff right now with filings is very challenging, right? You can do it, but it's very
involved. So there's a very sophisticated.
Financial these new tools, these new types of code that is being deployed in these smart contracts and we don't really have a clean way to even report them. You know, let alone understand how to what tax rate we should be charged. So I don't know. I'm excited for some of the more regulation to come into place. I think that just
to remove the uncertainty. So even if the rules are stringent and punitive and some respect at least, the rules will be clarified and Define. Yeah.
I've I want to pay my
My taxes, I don't want to go to jail. I just don't
know how quite to do it. All right, I wasn't implying, otherwise,
no. No, I'm just saying. I'm just saying that. If I
test you
watching it in the world of defied. This is what people are running into is they don't know how to handle this dear. So it's a very exciting space, but it's a very kind of bleeding edge. Enter at your own risk. Kind of world to answer your question. That like, what am I scared of? What are the risks that are out there? I think there's a few one is you
You mentioned the regulation side that that's certainly one that kind of is off their lingering in the background, which I'm not so much worried about what's going to happen on the US, but I'm worried about what if another country bands it? Because that causes some instability in the markets, when other countries
ban, which would be the most impactful countries where they to ban crypto outside of China. Are there any countries that stand out that one might not expect? So outside of the US like who are the
The players who would really move the
markets. Yeah, that's a good question. I think China was the big one to be honest. And now that that's kind of over. Obviously the European Union would be huge anything and with the UK would be huge but I just don't see those markets cracking down. So there's nothing out there. That is like the big scary whale that we're just waiting for that to happen. Like I don't know of any other big countries if anything we're seeing country is now embracing cryptocurrency and
It an accepted form of tender. Like it's so that's happening, which is just fantastic. Hmm. Okay. So let's put that regulation side apart aside. There's two other pieces that I always think about one is the, the meme coins. The the shitty coins that rise to the top and people think because it's a top-25 trade coin. They should buy it. That's a huge risk. The second thing is that people don't dollar cost average their way into the markets. So that means that they just buy a big chunk too often times too much and then they Panic cell. Yeah. So, you know dollar cost averaging is a
Very simple concept, you have a thousand dollars. Let's say $1,200 that you want to invest total in a cryptocurrency in your, like, listen, my chunk. What I can afford for me. It's $1,200, you take $100. And you do one by the 1st of every month for a year and you dollar cost average your way in that way. You're never buying at high, never buying at the low. You kind of getting that nice blend over 12 months. 12 months may seem like a long time. I personally would do something like that over like three to four months and just figure out what is that. Don't look at the markets in terms of like trying to tie.
It you just say every this is the day second week of every month, every Monday, or whatever. It may be, whatever your day is and then you go off and you make that by and the third piece is that people run into and this is something that comes up a lot, is that people take on too much risk, so it has to be something. Where if it goes, it drops by 75%. You will not sell. So it can't be so meaningful that you're freaking out and you do a panic sale because this is where the risk is. But also, you know, with risk comes the reward.
Obviously, so when you're playing in these crazy Waters, these shark-infested Waters, like there's going to be some really bloody days. And if that's the case you have to just be able to sit there and take it and not panic, sell because, you know, and you believe in your heart of hearts that the future is digital currencies. And if that's the case, the market is going to be bigger 5 years from now 10 years from now and 20 years now. And that remains true back to that. Like, what is my original thesis around this market? Then you're going to be good in the long term, but you have to be able to sit there.
And close your eyes on those really horrific days, and they will come, they'll be multiple,
lots, and lots. And lots of for me, I've realized if I am not comfortable, making an investment for, at least three years. I just shouldn't do it because I probably haven't done sufficient homework to have strong conviction.
On my base assumptions that should underlie that type of decision. And if I'm not willing to hold for, at least three years, like, you're going to get
Punched in the face at least a few times over. Yes, three years. And if I've committed to that, and I've only allocated so much that I can afford to easily have sidelined, right? For that period of time and a liquid, you're going to end up panic selling and just, as I did with Amazon 2008, which was a huge mistake, right? I taken too much. I put it into an excellent company that I didn't have rules for.
When I would sell, or why I would sell right, I only had my reasons for buying my reasons for buying or based on kind of present tense evaluation. Not looking at long-term trends, so I didn't have
Myself set up for success for that investment, which is a bummer and I ended up selling and then buying back in in early. April of, I guess, last year earlier, Bowl 2020, but man, oh man, would have been a lot better to actually, hold on to it for the entire period of time.
Here's the crazy thing. Tim. I'm curious to get how you think about it these days, but the one thing that is a little bit different than what you said. They're around stocks versus crypto. Is that the people that are the true believers?
We'll say there is if you really believe that the future of currency is digital. Then there is nothing to sell. Like why would you tell me? What would you say? What would you sell into? Because you're already holding the best form of that thing that you're holding currency? Yeah, right. You don't sell into the u.s. Dollar, why? When they're just printing more US dollars, because that would just be
silly. Totally totally it, right. So I don't want to come out with like super strong opinions, but I'm generally not selling the primary.
Right, like the primer is being Bitcoin. Aetherium. Like I have not sold any big, corn or aetherium in years and I don't have any plan to and then in the near future. There are other things. I'm not, I don't think we should name them, but more speculative things that might
On paper, offer a market cap that just does not make sense compared to the utility and ubiquity of other things. In which case. Okay. Maybe you take some of that off of the table. But because there's not a equally High degree of confidence in the durability over time of those things, right? Yeah, or you just can't find a compelling logic to be like, why is this worth X percent of the total market cap Bitcoin?
When yeah, then I consider that. But I hear you. I mean, they're definitely in the True Believer Camp. It's like, look, if you actually believe a b and c, what you're saying, you should never sell. Never is a bit, never as a strong word though. I would say, right? Given current information given what we know currently given current information. I don't have any plans to sell BTC or
theorem, right? So in my mind, what I think is, okay, if I think about Amazon, of course, Amazon's going to continue to scale and be the
The leader in that space if I believe the same the digital cryptocurrency space, but I'm in a coin where I think to myself gosh. I really see this emerging player that's coming up that I really believe in as well. Then I might do a lateral move where I say. Okay. Well, I have a lot of gains in this one particular cryptocurrency, but I also want to get a little exposure to this other one. I'm going to sell part of this and then move into another coin and and they just kind of diversifies my crypto currency basket a little bit more. Now, one other.
Is, is we
talked about kind of right-sizing the position that you're holding, so that you don't freak out. If there's a big dip at some point, because I believe this Market will expand and continue to grow over the next couple decades that position. Let's just say you put in 10,000, you know, over the next three months and that turns into a half a million dollars. At some point. You're going to look at that whole thing and be like, wow, this is now meaningful. I am going to freak if it drops by 75% ugly. And so what do you do then? So my playbook is one and I'm just
Looking for myself, but what it is is if cryptocurrency grows to the point where it is no longer, whatever your number is ten percent of your overall Holdings, 20%, whatever, you're comfortable with. And all of a sudden it's 40 percent of your overall net worth. Then my way of trimming is not to say cell and grab some US dollars. What I do is I say, let's sell but then diversify into a stocks and bonds and more traditional assets. So more of the wealthfront style, kind of fully Diversified.
That to me is more the boring old
school hoping for 7% a year,
you know, type of style investing but I'm definitely not one of these people. You talk to pomp or something and they'll be like, Oh, I'm a hundred percent Bitcoin to like what stocks do you hold? No, no, justjust Bitcoin, like wait, what? Like that's a little aggressive, you know, so I'm definitely a fan of having, you know, other assets as well. So it's not just all about
crypto. Yeah, totally and I should say also I mean 7%
Terrible, but I gave if it's decent number to begin with and you don't sell and rebuy and rack up all of these transaction fees and management fees and so on you could do worse. Yeah. Oh toys people. A lot of people go to zero trying to chase like 40 percent annual returns. Actually. I have a lot of sympathy for people who had the experience. Their first experience investing in this last run up with crypto because there are just ruined forever.
You know, in a way, I'm just like, oh my God, like this is, I don't want to say a non recurring phenomenon, but it's just like the if your Baseline is set at hundreds of percentage per year. It will be very hard to convince you that it makes sense to invest in something with a reasonably predictable seven to ten percent per year. Let's just say that's a tough position psychologically for people to get, you know,
Absolutely. Yeah,
the one hack I did want to share with the audience that I think is a really worthwhile one is well, I don't want to I'll say it. Like I think that the mistake a lot of cryptocurrency holders are doing today, is that they are holding their cryptocurrency. Were they're not earning anything for their cryptocurrency. So a lot of people will have a Robin Hood account. I'm an investor Robin Hood. So I'm like, I'm slamming them right now, and I'm sorry. I'm not an investor. We investigate.
Ventures and I hold some their fun. So I don't mean to talk bad about Robin Hood, but they don't give you any interest when you're holding your crafter. They're the same thing, goes for coinbase. Coinbase, just now said, if you have our stable coin, u.s. DC will give you four percent, but actually, they do etherium to staking, which is nice, but outside of that. They're not really giving you any interest. If you hold Bitcoin there. There are some places that you can go, that you can transfer your cryptocurrency to, you know, Pay Pal, doesn't give you an interest that you can earn interest on your crypto paid.
In crypto, so you paid in kind so you're getting more crypto as you're sitting there holding it. So my strategy is that there's two sites that I like block Phi, which we already mentioned, they give you interest on ethereum bitcoin, a whole slew of other coins, and then Gemini's another. Really world-class exchange that gives you interest on just holding your crypto there. So every time I launch my wallet, I see that I have more crypto because I every month, I'm earning interest on it. And I just would hate for people to be letting their crypto sit there and
Learn any type of Interest now there are risks because they're linear come to out on your behalf. But that's why I actually I to plug my Shogun. I did an episode all around with risk with the head of risk of both of those organizations to talk about how they're doing it behind the scenes. And after listening to that episode. I'm confident and comfortable and what they're doing. So I've been using black guy for years now and getting outrageous interest rates. It's a great thing to do when you're sitting on some crypto. Why not? Learn more here here. What else should we talk about? Kev Kev? Yeah.
Ah, so we covered crypto pretty well. Thank you for the Wii.
I'll take it.
It's a fun world, man. You're doing fine. Thank you. That you hold your Bitcoin in the tank.
You I'm just breathing while I listen. Yes. Thank you. I'm doing great. It was a
great.
You know, one thing I want to cover is a question came in from Twitter asking and I guess then we can wrap it up. Lets you have more. But one of the ones that we have on the last on our list here is the most recent thing you've added to your daily architecture. Any new rituals question. Mark, I was really curious when that came in because we haven't talked about this in a while. Like, what have you picked up both in covid and then kind of like a coming out of slowly coming out of covid, anything new for you.
So, the first thing that comes
Comes to mind is anything at all things related to sleep. This is a perennial topic. But, you know, in the last I would say month. I've had probably 10 days at least of the best sleep I've ever had. And a lot of that stemmed from a conversation. I had with a neurobiologist from Stanford named Andrew huberman. Really interesting guy and we talked quite a lot about sleep. He studies the visual system variant.
Was he on your podcast? Yeah. Yeah. It was awesome. Yeah, he was under his podcast to. Yeah, he's a smart guy. He's
a smart guy, and we spoke a lot about sleep. We spoke about tossed, her own and increasing, testosterone, talk about performance, the risks of increasing testosterone different, methods, Etc. And in the Sleep camp, we rush to say, he rather told me about increasing fish oil, specifically EPA, to at least 1 gram per day.
Day, and I've been taking fish oil, but I had not been taking that quantity and I began taking fish oil and a number of other supplements including magnesium Beyond just magnesium 3 and 8, which is very good for sleep. And on top of that paying more attention to circadian and cyclical cues that he and I talked about. So I've been trying to ensure as soon as I wake up that I go outside.
Spend at least five minutes in the Sun and I'll do that by jumping rope and walking around with Molly, my dog, but to really ensure that to the extent possible. I don't wake up and then brush my teeth and then check my phone and then check my calendar and sit inside dilly-dallying, or even doing important work for an hour or two before getting outside exposure. I've really been trying to
Very consistently get son. Even if it's cloudy outside just like solar / Sky exposure as soon as I get up and I've been having some of the best sleep of my life. It's really, really, really remarkable. So I'd say what are you using to track your
sleep
right now because I shifted locations recently. I mean not full time, but I'm just I'm I'm outside of my usual home base. So I have an or ring that is charging. I haven't been wearing it, I do.
Is eight sleep. Also on the bed, which is incredibly helpful for. Yeah, we love ours. Yeah, creating two zones and my girlfriend, if she could sleep inside a sauna at and 90 plus degrees, you would probably do it. I really need to sleep at could have surrounding temperature of like 67 degrees or I have an incredibly hard time getting to sleep. So the eight sleep does provide some tracking and I found that that 8 sleeps suppose inference.
Since or extrapolation from what they can sense in the bed is pretty good, even when they're paying attention to HRV. Certainly the number of times you're tossing and turning getting up etcetera, surprisingly, accurate, from what I can tell, I was very skeptical. I do use the ordering that's going to be the primary for looking at Sleep Quality and HRV. So, those would be the two tools predominantly, but, you know, at the end of the day, even though I find these
Will is very useful, you know, by 1 p.m. If you had a good night's sleep or not, and you probably know as soon as you get up. And so, it's a subjective feel as much as anything else and I am a different person. If I get three or four nights of Excellence sleep, I am a different human being that qualitatively and probably quantitatively in a bunch of ways. I am just a different human being. So those are, those are a few of the things that hippo questions. Yeah,
so when you are, when you have
A bad night's sleep and you look at your aura data. What does that mean for you? Does that mean lack of REM sleep, lack of deep sleep or is there anything that jumps
out? Yeah, for me. It's lack of deep sleep. It's like the same its lack of restorative sleep and I don't know how deeply pun intended. I should read into that. But my deep sleep is very easily compromised. It is very easily, compromised. Also if I have more than two alcoholic, drinks, of course not all alcoholic, drinks are created equal.
So, six percent is very different from tequila shots, but I've paid a lot of attention to that. And that is another reason why I was actually more than happy to have a drink or two, this early since we started recording at 3 p.m. My time because if I drink a little bit earlier, this is not, this is coming out really off terribly because I'm not suggesting that people become day drinkers, but if I
Rink at say happy hour like an early happy hour, which is not really my thing. But just for the sake of illustration, like I feel like a 4 or 5 p.m. My body is able in a waking state to seemingly metabolize a lot of that before I go to bed. Right? And I consequently do not wake up with the rapid heartbeat and like this, the word alcohol night sweats. It's the worst and it hate that
rapid heartbeat. We wake up. He has got that like you could just feel it going.
Like what do I do? You can't. I'm hot. I can't do anything on her. Yeah, you can't, you can't do anything. You just have a terrible night's sleep. So having even an additional three hours to metabolize before going to bed, makes a huge difference for me. So I've been paying attention to that as well. But almost all of my changes recently have been associated with improving Sleep Quality.
Can I ask you what type of what manufacturer of Omega-3s do you take?
Yeah, I can tell you, let me grab.
It. All right. Tim has left the room. See if this makes the edit or not. I'm betting. It's Carlson wild-caught
Omega-3s.
Okay, here. We are.
You have another one. These are delicious.
Don't judge me, Kevin.
This is not my usual. But in any case, the first I've to hear this is a Nordic Naturals Pro, Omega 650 EPA for
50 DHA that is right here, this guy which I've been using and then the second that I have is Thorn, that's th o RN e, super EPA. That's this guy right here. Those are what I end up choosing and the effect is really remarkable and it's difficult. I would say it's impossible. Let me be clear. It's impossible for me to say,
That my Sleep Quality improvements are entirely caused by this. I'm also spending more time outside. I'm doing Ruck sacking. I'm getting more exercise being a lot more sun exposure. I'm in nature. My body tends to just down regulates not the right word, but my nervous system down shifts a lot when I'm surrounded by Nature. So there are many factors. There are many environmental changes in my life that have taken place in the last few weeks, but
Off. I have spent a lot of time in nature, many other points in my sleep is not had this dramatic change. So that leads me to think that there are other causal factors. And this is the most obvious. This is the most obvious
thing. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. I've been taking a couple grams of Omega-3s for for a while now. And I defined for me. I actually see the benefits in the joint side. Like I guess. I just like kind of joint, joint
issues. Yeah. I've noticed I've noticed that actually my feet,
like, the old man episode is
the old man. I've said, but
My family has a history of gout. So, my family has gout on at least the maternal side and a sort of precursor indicator of that is often high uric acid levels. And I've been pretty loath to start another medication, which will be a maintenance medication forever. In this case would be
allopurinol. Yeah. I do have been taken out of here now for five years.
Yeah, even though it's very, very well tolerated, right? As far as drugs, go it.
Very well tolerated. I'm like, oh God, I'm gonna end up that old guy with the pillowcase with a hundred pills that I've seen every day. I don't take that many things right now. I've really tried to minimize it. Although compared to the normal people. I probably seem like a complete disaster. In any case, the EPA or perhaps, it's both including the DHA, the higher levels of
Fish oil, consumption unexpectedly. I was stretching and I noticed, oh, wow. I don't have that usual stiffness, which I thought might be some type of degeneration in the joint. All those X-rays and it didn't appear to be the case the stiffness and pain that. I feel in that big toe joint, which is very often where gout first presents, which I was very concerned about like, fucked. I've, gout really am. I like some fat Aristocrat from like the Seventeen hundreds and France. Like what is this like really, how can I
Out. Some people think that that's primarily caused by think it's purines in DNA, and that's associated with protein and therefore people take by extension that to mean that animal protein should be decreased. It's not quite as simple as that is actually a chapter that I published on my blog to blog. People can find it on gout and the understated culprit, which is fructose as found in high fructose corn syrup.
Up and in Fruit to a lesser degree, so it's not quite as simple as people might paint it to be. Nonetheless. What I notice is I call we shit like that pain in my toes is like 90% gone after a week of doing it and I cannot think because this has been consistent for years now that I've had this pain. I mean, it's been a, it's been a static level of pain and after a week or two again, maybe it's Placebo. Who knows, but I wasn't anticipating this.
As an effect. So it's hard for me to think that it's expectation. Like, you know, it's hard for me to come up with many reasons not to do this. So I'm going to give it a go. If you take too much more is not better. I think you could probably cause intestinal bleeding or all sorts of problems. If you were just to chew these like gummy bears or something. So, you know, word to the wise, talk to your doctor about things like this, but I've certainly found it beneficial. What about you your daily architecture?
Yeah. I mean, it's a very, I would say very
kind.
Of - hided highfalutin way to put it but, yeah, you're down your daily architecture. Kevin, tell
ya. The only thing I would say that I've really stuck with that. Well, a lot of people want to know about our sauna routines. And if we're still doing sauna, that was a Hot Topic in the,
the hot top and that doggy
style on the Twitter. I gotta tell you, man, a sauna sauna for me has been, it's just the best. It was, it's the best money I've ever spent outside of having a nanny, from time to time.
It's like a sauna, sauna is so key. I just feel so much better. I mean, there's all the health benefits in the studies. They just get, there's more and more coming out of the time. I will say one thing, one pro tip. Do not while your sauna. So I oiled my sauna.
Does that even mean you like, so they
have this sauna oil on Amazon and it's like, when the wood dries, out your supposed to put oil on it. Okay. It's like by the sauna oil on.
On oil. It and then it
literally off gases, like,
smoke mokey horrible. And I listen to this, dude. It's
like this Dylan on the oven on the stovetop. That's terrible. Yes. Okay. So I was like, okay, this is crazy. So I went in, I sanded it down like try to get it all out, you know, scrubbed it with like soap and shit. And then, dude, it's still off gassing. So then I started wearing my n95 mask in there.
It's this
is why, you know, ghastly mask use your own sauna. He had areas like it. What are you doing? She's like, I'm not going in that song again. I'm like listen. I'm like little Let Me Burn it out because it but I still need to get my sought on. So I used to let my gas mask and then do I go in there and my eyes, when I walk out, after after 20 minutes, my eyes are bloodshot because the, the like, the smoke is hitting my eyes. And my eyes were burning something. Gum is
no, it was have to come. He's
it's not your gummies that you hand me. Custom-made
gummies.
The E. Honestly, it's just like so I ripped out my entire sauna had all the wood removed and head of I a news us. Yeah. Wow, so that sucks. Anyway, so routine routine wise architecture wise, it's been one year almost coming up on one year of meditation and that my friend is the biggest game changer I've ever had is when I decided to take it seriously and not just do it like a nap. Just but like really sit and
And do it really like real practice.
So it was real mean. This is our day.
What are we talking? You know, what's funny Tim? And it's I never told you then
style. This is this is with your teacher. Yeah.
It's an according to his instructions. That's right. So what's funny? Tim is one time? I don't know. If you ever remember, we were talking about meditation. This is probably seventy six, seven years ago. And you said something to the effect of like, I think that most people will, they just close their eyes and think about things when they're meditating, or like you.
It's almost like you didn't believe it. Oh, I still think that's
true. I mean, I think there are benefits
to meditating but I think most people are just thinking about bullshit with their eyes
closed. Yeah. It's
I was going to ask you. Have you ever found yourself in deep on if you're meditated where you've been like, I mean because you did the, you did the offices, how you did the really famous you talk about
that, the pasta, if
pasta psychotic
breakdown. Yes, I yeah, that breakdown. Yeah, that was, that was pretty deep having that.
The folks I gotta break. I would say it's pretty deep. I have felt. Yes. I have had very, very deep experiences. Some of the best experiences. I had were actually planking on the style and the name currently. The Vol would have some hints of all would have the answer. I'll tell you the general approach and the general approach is having nothing to do.
You actually sit there. You do not repeat a mantra. You do not pay attention to the breath. You just sit there and this is going to sound paradoxical, but you actively try to do nothing. You just sit there and doing this in a group environment for period of time. Did it with a small group. This was one hour in the morning one hour. Let's just call it five PM like 8 a.m. And 5 p.m. And doing it in a Groove. I do think there is a dynamic.
That is gained.
Certainly a different Dynamic that presents itself in a group. I don't have an explanation for this. There are theories. Certainly pet theories. But doing it in a group 2 hours a day for period of even a week produce. Some very, very, very, very deep States and I would say in terms of kind of Roi in a short period of time. I found that very interesting when I came back to so-called normal life. I did not.
Stain that twice-daily Cadence for very long. And I think in part because it was doing it by myself or with my girlfriend and not in a group having that accountability was very, very helpful, but I have experienced some very deep states of
meditation.
Have you found those to be pleasant States? Or just kind of like when you walked away? Did you have a smile on your face? And you feel like you're really wasn't very, very peaceful. Yeah, very pleasant, very
pleasant and very at peace. For sure, often times what I've noticed this can be for me at least facilitated by doing a very intense, but shorts on accession for say 15 to 20 minutes and then sitting outside and sort of
Air Cooling.
And meditating for 20
minutes. Yeah, that's nice. That's just a great feeling. It's
incredible found that to be very consistent. So to answer someone's question that you brought up. I still do sauna very, very regularly and view it as a key and simple lever that I'm able to pull for mental health, whether it helps me physically or not. I don't know. I mean, it may be sure he shock proteins, all of that. Yeah. Okay. Maybe I'm not going to know if it did anything until I'm dead.
So jury's out, but from just a day-to-day psycho, emotional and mental perspective, doing a sauna, especially late afternoon. If I do it too close to bedtime, it interferes with my sleep. But if I do it mean for five o'clock, then it seems to help and also dramatically increase HIV the next day. So interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I've noticed that as have a couple of other people, so
But coming back
to architecture in your meditation. So, one year anniversary. Congratulations, that is the anniversary of what maybe you can describe for us. Yeah. So I mean, I've
been like most people that have ever played around with meditation apps, you know, I've been dabbling in even, you know, help build one, that is free meditation app, but it just was dabbling. I was always dabbling. I was doing the 10-15 minutes to maybe 20 minutes, you know, just a little sessions guided. And we were fantastic. Very, very
Be great. Prescriptive meditation. Oh, you have something wrong, you're feeling stressed, you know fear of flying whatever it is. Like there's all these courses for that. You can take them. There's not a lack of apps that offer this type of content. I think that the shift in the change was telling myself that this is a long road to practice, to really train the brain. Like, if you think about Tim, you know, this better than way. Better than I do, if you want to be really good at something, it can't just be an afterthought cash.
Will I'm going to make time for this when I feel like it
when I feel like it. Exactly. So I made that shift in my brain and said, okay, I believe there is something worth pursuing here that a dedicated longer practice longer duration and a more serious discipline. So for me, that was a form of Zen called sand bows in Sam's Turtle. Yes. And Bows like the the offshoot. It's more
kind of Ale. How do you spell it?
Sa NB o
Samba Zen. Just yeah, so check it out when I
heard about this and was introduced to my teacher, Henry got excited about it and really decided to dive in and say, okay. I'm going to read a few of the books are out there on this type of Zen and then create a real practice that is 55 minutes of sitting a day. And how
absolutely how much is it?
55 minutes? Why 55 minutes.
Well, you do like five.
- yeah, you do 25 minutes of your first sit and then you do a five-minute walking meditation. And then another 25 minutes said, okay cool.
And for those wondering. So as I just looked it up some bull killed on some bull killed on is a Lay's insect derived from both the Soto and the runes I Traditions. Some ball literally means three Treasures. I'm going over. The treasures are sung is like each Nissan. Sung three, some Bowl bowls.
Iqbal Chand like my, my darling, my treasure kind of thing. But yeah, some boy is three treasures. And then kuehl, we can get into the Japanese another time. But, yeah. Killed on religious organization or teaching organization. That's cool. So, 55 minutes what I do know what the three
Treasures are, but insurance. Yeah, the one treasure is the Sangha. So the group. Yeah. The other one is the Dharma, the teachings and the third one is
Gave me right now. You can just type in three Treasures. It'll three Treasures, apply more to than just zombo. Okay,
here we go. Okay, wait a minute. Three jewels are the Buddha is artfully.
Yeah, three jewels, three Treasures that you can translate either way. At least in Japanese the Buddha. The fully enlightened one, the Dharma, the teachings expounded, by the Buddha. Hence, the term or phrase, Dharma talks. If you ever heard that and the sun ha, the monastic order of Buddhism that practice dharma's, but that's also colloquially. Thought it was the group that practices together, Roger, that okay. So, you've done 55 minutes a day for a year.
I will say that I have certainly missed.
You days, but nothing. Nothing. Crazy. Not like where I'm like, oh, I missed that entire week. Like, there'll be a day or two words just didn't work out. Yeah, and there's been also a handful of days that are on the 25 minutes. I'd like there was definitely versus doing the 55. But yeah for the most part I've been really consistent.
What is the practice? What is this session? I know you mentioned it in brief already. But what is this session look like and feel like do you? Well, it
depends on where you are in your practice when you're first being instructed. The
The teaching is essentially kind of counting or just following the breath. So very almost like vaasna style. Yeah, just to get that base level of concentration honed. So, you know, it's a very like, there's a teaching where they talk about the Zen master that was sitting and and the concentration of was so intense that they're, they're sweating like you can see sweat of their brow because they, it is like a very active thing that is happening with the honed concentration. Yeah, they hit with a
switch if
Not if you're not a God, if you would like
to request it, you can go on there and then do and you can request that that happen. It's not for pain. It's for for a jolt, you know, like me. It's not like a beating
practice is for you, not for me. Exactly.
So the initially it's just that initial kind of counting and awareness and then eventually if your teacher and you feel you're ready for it, you know, you take on a colon which is one of these things to sit with.
Like Zen kind of saying or word to sit with that is used as kind of a best way to put it, kind of like just
a like a paradoxical Q, right? Or it's right, something like that. Yeah paradoxical anecdote, a riddle used in Zen Buddhism demonstrate, the inadequacy of logical reasoning and to provoke Enlightenment. That is the definition that comes up for
me course. So what you do is when you sit with that con eventually you will be
Of to answer it. And there are hundreds of them and there are checking questions that are done with your instructor checking Solutions. That's right. So, if you sit down with a Zen master and they ask you probably the most famous one is the sound of one hand clapping. Yeah,
right. You would then be able
to answer that question through a series of checks, and eventually you can go through and kind of answer.
All of them.
So there's a right and a wrong answer to something. Yeah, that's more or less. Yeah, goddamn, that's stressful. But I mean they get it, you get
it wrong a lot. So essentially like if you're going to do one of these, they call them like a session where you go and do these like multi-day Retreats, you will go, and you will sit. And then you have a one-on-one session with your zen master at that in the evening, when you're kind of wrapping up, you know, and they'll sit you down and say
What is the answer to this question? Wherever you're sitting with? Some people sit with most common one is when we called mu and it and they'll say, you know, what is Mu? And if you, then you can either say, I don't know and you can walk out and that's fine. They ring the bell. The next person goes in or you can try and answer
it. And what is Mu? I mean not that I'm not asking you to give the cheat sheet for people, but
I don't know the answer to that question, but
broadly speaking is Mu.
Character. Is
it? Yeah, so it's done. These kind of
ideas are not in motion. Motion is like no mind or no, not exactly. Yeah, motion
social. Basically. They're the, the where that came from is there was a very famous Zen teachers and master named, Joe shoe. And Joe shoe was asked by a monk one day. The monk came up to him and said and all earnestness monk asked. Joe shoe, does a dog have Buddha nature and
Shoes answer was just mu
and then and that was coming from.
They will tell you that answer was coming from a non dual world. So it was like gets a little tricky. Yeah,
exactly. So do it to give you I can give you a breather if you like. I've got some. Yeah, I've got some stuff but yes continue. Yeah. I
see you just basically sit with. What are you talking about? What do you look for
either? I'm just saying if you want a moment to gather yourself because it's so pretty.
Esoteric shit, I can read what I found on the social, the checking questions,
but I can either read the answers
found the answers, like, the
like my like a wreck. Like, the
mantras were transmittal meditation where they're just listed out by age. I could design just like to really make everyone cry that I say that as someone who paid for the training and still uses T. I paid forty. I still use it. So teachers, May probe students about their colon practice using special checking questions to
Great. Their Satori understanding. Although I would debate the translation of such Authority there or can show, which is a really cool. Yeah. Word, like seeing the nature, seeing the phenomenon for the mooc on and the Clapping hand con. There are twenty to a hundred checking questions depending on the teaching lineage the chicken question. Serve deep in the inside of the student, but also to test his or her understanding. That's why all the there would be questions. I'm just trying to imagine. I'm not asking you to spill the beans on the secret cult that you joined, but
The questions that would be related to something. Like, what is the hand of one hand clapping? Right? Is it, but think it seems like it's unanswerable by definition because it's intended to show the the. That's right, inadequacy of
logic. That's right. And so the best way it's been described mean this wasn't by my zen teacher, but I've heard it. I've described elsewhere is like the answers are going to be something that you will only understand if you've had. That can show Awakening type moment though. You would only be able to provide. Hmm.
So, your answers in the same way that when the monk asked, you know, does a dog have Buddha nature? And Joe, she's responsive mu like that would make no sense, make no sense at all. So your answer is, are also going to make no sense in this plane, if that makes sense, but your teacher will understand them because they will be listening from another plane. So it makes sense, kinda sorta. I mean,
it's over here. Let me give an analogy can be terrible. You're going to love it. That's it.
It's like if you're trying to explain.
Like a jack Elation to someone who's never ejaculated and you're like, it's kind of like a sneeze in your balls and they're like, what? And like there's never gonna understand it. But if they have has a bad one, too, they've had the experience of a jackal and then like there's kind of no explanation needed and you can give like a mu type answer that I got ya, I hear ya Louis somu that stuff. So mu
there. You I don't know that. That's how I describe it. But then you're like it. I mean, you're welcome. Yeah, that's just
three. All you're practically is in, this is yeah, three hard kombuchas later.
ER, I think I'm
enlightened. I think it's great. No, but that's the gist of it is like the we would never, even if we read the answers. It
can't be a reading based logic based actor. It has to be something that you have a felt experience of right through this thing. That is given the label of and
that's why there's so many checking questions. Yeah, can show. Because they'll be checking from a bunch of different angles whether or not you've actually felt or had the experience at school versus it just being like just like a red response.
Yeah, super interesting. I think the honestly, I mean, the even though in some respects are very different. There are similarities. Meaning these psychedelic ecosystem in the realm of, whether it's Psychotherapy, assisted, by different, psychedelic compounds, or otherwise either could be a place for these type of checking questions in actually, in some of the indigenous Traditions. There are, I don't want to call them fact-checking questions, but there are sort of standards and
Experiences that are thought to be representative of different levels of awareness, within the context of saying Ayahuasca experience, so, they're not that dissimilar actually very similar and I should correct something I said earlier, because I was thinking of a different character can show the Shoal is different than the, a lot of homonyms in Japanese lot of things that have the same pronunciation. So the Shoal in can show is a different character than I had envisioned. Its nature.
Your essence is this show Ken is to see like kinkaku. If you want to go to say a judo school and observe but not participate, you'd ask. If you could do Kinga. Kinga, KU is got goes to study. So be like visual studying. That's super cool, man. I'm so glad that you're digging deep into all this. That's really great to see you. Stick with something for a year.
Yeah. Seriously, it's gonna be a long journey, man, but I know now is the age to get
started. Yeah. Why do you think you saw?
Chuck with this. So there's a God. What is the expression since we're on a wall? We I say just like we explained cryptocurrency and blockchain stuff earlier, which was basically you talking I'm kind of on this, you know speaking in tongues Japanese Kik right now, but there's this expression. I think it's he has to be some Agassi. I think that's what it is. Somebody who's a native speaker. Japanese could correct me. But there's a there's an expression in Japanese, which is like he or she gets hot quickly and gets cold quickly meaning they
Up habits and routines and various things and then they stick with them for very short periods of time. Like they get really excited about something and then they just drop it right? Which I think you and I both do although I think you take it to a whole new level. So why do you think you've stuck with this for a year?
In the way that you have, what, what has changed in you? Or what? Is it about? This particular thing that has has grabbed
you? Well, I would say that I told myself that I knew that The Upfront work of just being able to sit for an hour and be comfortable with, it was going to take some time and to feel the still the mind to the point where you can just get comfortable, and not feel like just this.
Crazy effort that you're like, why the hell am I doing? This is a lot of work, but I said, I'm going to push through until I can at least get to the point where when I get up off the cushion. I feel better than when I sat down and I don't feel like it was a just a waste of my time. Like often times. It was a challenge. Initially to say, can I calm my mind?
To the point where I will actually consider this a net positive and I say it took about three months. It took about three months to get to the point where, when I would get up after 55 minutes, I would say to myself. This is great. I feel really
good. How did you stick with it for that long? Three months is not. I mean, it's not the, you know, we're not talking about like a hundred years of solitude but it's a non-trivial period of time for someone who operates it really high RPM. So like why even have that as a
goal?
Honestly Tim's of beef, I being really truthful. It was because I was really depressed. Hmm. We had a lot of stuff going on both in the country and with the pandemic and having a second child and just having all this stress, hit all at the same time. I just felt like I just needed something. I just need something to be able to sink into that. Wasn't the news that wasn't what was going on around us. And it was right during the pandemic that I decided. That's why I decided to do this.
This is because I just couldn't, you know, you're sitting at home and you're not really going on doing anything and it's just like I can either drink
no
or insert any other bad thing to do here or I can pick up some pain.
Just kidding. I hear. Ya
know but like it was a lot of that where I was just like I taught we're all going to die and I was just like I need to go deep here and luckily that was enough of a driver to get to the point where then it was tolerable and then enjoyable
so happy for
Dude, I'm not anywhere close to being anything in this world in the world of zen-like. I'm it's, it's going to be 20 plus years or longer for me to get really, really deep. But two things I'm glad I started because I am at the point now where it is enjoyable. And two, I would say that, the only thing I've noticed is that little things that just used to get underneath my skin. Really don't quite hit me as hard. Yeah. So those little edges have been sanded down.
A little bit, those little rough edges and so I can take a sharp elbow with ease in ways that I couldn't before. So, I think that's that's the one benefit and and I and whatever else comes on top of that as gravy, and I'm excited for but you know,
it's also super weird than Buddhism. And I think that, that is a more
Accurate reflection of what we call reality. Then the kind of clean abstracted pictures. We like to paint of reality that we would like to be the case because it allows us to grasp it and kind of navigate it so much more easily you to for that reason. I think that the journey through Zen Buddhism actually has a lot in common with deep study of psychedelics think there.
Very similar because the further you get in the more you realize nobody fucking knows what's going on. Like, this is actually very, very like, the more, I know the less. I know in a sense and I find that very liberating actually and a very liberal is like, nobody knows what's going on. Okay. Well, I was like, great
goals eventually to get you to study some Zen. I think you would be. So you're the perfect person for it because it is, there are actual obtainable things.
You know what? I mean, like, in some sense, the whole practice is about obtaining nothing. So it's not like it's like, but the fact that there just are checking questions is, like, I'm a kind person wants to check a box, you know, one of the like that appeals to me, for sure. Yeah, I could see that feel to you as
well. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I mean, it is always been a bitch to me. I mean, even when I was in Japan, you know, I spent time with
I remember passing these monks, who would be, what is the expression asking for? Alms? I mean, they would have to do a tour of Duty where they would ask for money. They'd have to beg for their food, if any money to buy food, and I would always pass these monks, not. All of them were necessarily Zen Buddhist monks, but I would pass them every day. As I was walking back from school and I was 15 as a
Change student in Japan and have spent a lot of time, recognizing that Zen is not uniquely Japanese. All those, n the words that pronunciation is Japanese as a tradition that predates its introduction to Japan.
Yeah. I mean it came from China, right, initially? Like the it was called Chen.
Yes more than like that. I don't know the character that was used for that is probably the same character. Actually. We just I look it up. It's probably the same cha.
On yeah. Yet chun chun second tone. Yeah, so Chun, second tone in Mandarin, and then Zen in Japanese, then Korean. I guess that's Jun. Jun. Somebody could tell me, I'm pretty Rusty on my Hunger, but my looking at the at the Korean, I think it's done and then we have Vietnamese. And so on what I like most about Zen is that it Embraces pair?
Ox because so much of our existence I think is paradoxical and so much of what we want and
So many of our conflicting goals can sort of be symbolized by this word paradox, that it's such a fundamental aspect of our existence has, but it's so uncomfortable to look at directly also because it's not easily put on a shelf in organized and just slot it into some category that you can understand and figure out. Dude. I want
you to have a Zen Master on your show. Why wouldn't you do that? Like Sam says, I'm great, I do that.
I
should have Henry on your show, man. He's amazing.
I'd be open to having her in the show. I mean, I think part of it is that I don't feel like I am qualified to ask.
Informed questions about it. That makes sense. He's
had a lot of students also that of dabbled in psychedelic. So he has some good background there as well. And yeah, kind of comparing little like senior students that also practice Zen and do psychedelics. It'd be interesting to draw. Yeah, that could be their goals their. Yeah, and I'm
not a, even though I support a ton of the science and I'm very involved in the policy and Regulation and all sorts of aspects of the Psychedelic ecosystem. Right now. I'm not a hammer looking for nails. I
I think that psychedelic should panaceas. And I
mean, you're on mushrooms right
now, you know, it wouldn't be out of character for that to be the case, but I'm not. I'm not on mushrooms right now.
You just casually chewing in the background just like just chomping on some
mushrooms. Yeah, like trail mix. No. No, I'm on. I'm on the, I'm on the hard kombucha kick right now, but I would love to have somebody on. I think that would be a really
fascinating conversation because you are, I mean, you have such a great background in all things Japanese, and obviously,
The whole Space was psychedelics and Japan. All these things that they're all interconnected in some way, you know.
Yeah. Yeah, they're definitely interconnected. I mean I and also I don't view these tools as mutually exclusive and I was listening to an interview recently with Dennis McKenna who I'm going to have on the podcast soon. Dennis McKenna is the younger brother of Terence McKenna. Who is considered the Irish bard of psychedelics. Very, very smart guy.
Storyteller. Dennis is more of the scientist and the
The ethno pharmacologist phytochemistry of the to he's very scientifically literate and understands organic chemistry and synthesis and things like this and you know, one of the points that he's made and did make in this interview. I heard was our experience of reality is mediated Through Chemistry and neurotransmitters. So when you hear people talk about say, getting to certain States naturally,
Arguing that is better than augmenting or using psychedelics. The argument Rings somewhat Hollow when you really start to dig underneath it, and that's not to say that one should not develop self-directed capabilities without the use of drugs or plants to achieve these states. I'm not saying that, but the fact is when you practice something, unless we're going to go into transpersonal.
Psychology and some really gnarly terrain, which I could do. But what we're talking about is an experience of reality, which is a hallucination that we are creating as the Mind applies filters to incoming information to optimize for a few things like propagation of the species.
And when you enter an a non-ordinary state of reality, whether it is through ingesting, safe for five grams of dried mushrooms. In the case of Selassie, mushrooms psilocybin mushrooms or doing very dedicated Zen practice. Like, you are changing the cocktail and a percent. And in that respect. They're actually very close cousins, although, you know, certainly some compounds in Plants. I think our
Better for achieving States similar to set the audio can show maybe than others like meth probably, not right? I mean, I don't think that's anyone's going to suggest math for for coming to terms with some of these deeper realizations necessarily, but I think there's more common ground than not at least for those who make a really deep study of it. Like, Dennis as an example Who I Really encourage. Everyone to check out very, very bright guy. I'd love to have one.
And I think it'd be great. Yeah, Henry Shipman. Yeah, he's, he's done a couple qas with Sam. Sam has been creating a lot of content for Sam Harris. Has meditation app. So he has a whole dedicated Zen section in there, but I think you'll find him fascinating because he's also really well-versed in all the latest science and studies going on. And especially some of the neurosciences happening around the study of emptiness, which is this kind of Henry can speak to it, but it is like this state like that can show
Date of nothing like hung on existence.
Yeah. Music scene. Yeah,
so I think you guys my, I
would be very interested. I think mostly then maybe this wouldn't be the case with Henry and sometimes you can get into kind of dangerous pop science territory. Unless you're talking to someone like Adam ghazali. How the hell does he say his last name is because I was Ali. Yeah, exactly. Because Ali side note, who got crazy treatment somewhere in the Middle East, because of his last name. Did he tell you this story?
No. Yeah. Yeah.
There's sir.
Conic figure in want to say Persian but it could have been actually in Saudi Arabia or somewhere in Middle Eastern culture and history was ghazali GH azal. I and they saw his name and he landed at the airport and they're like, are you Adam? Because Ali he's like, yes, like you don't need to wait in this line, sir, like you come with us, and he was like, what
it ain't gonna be really awesome or really, really, really
bad. Yeah. So Adam,
Um, ghazali guys, ghazali. I should know this after decades in all the guy but is a world-class neuroscientist, right? So speaking to him about science is one thing I would be most interested with Henry and his talk about his personal experience and to see how well he can describe his personal experience for me. It's like either, like, you gotta choose one end of the pole or the other. It's got to be like, randomized, controlled, studies, or personal experience.
Both of those. I'm very open to it's the stuff in the middle that gets really wonky and kind of macgyvered and and hard, his
descriptions of Enlightenment and waking up. And some of the the best I've ever heard. They're just think cool. Yeah, you will be blown away. You'll have so many. You could ask about the checking questions because he does that with the students, right? So he's clearing all the students and how many of them make it. I bet I'd be really curious but are
those off limits are those like the level 29 of Scientology where I
Tasks that until I
do die here, bunch of hurdles. You type thing. Know, and it's
I know I'm just saying is that like protected knowledge, where I can't think so. Okay, and you can always say, I can't tell ya also. Yeah, which is fair like I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. I'm not comparing what you're doing to psychology. No disrespect Scientology. I know you guys like to see people do Suey. Some of my best friends are sighs. Awesome.
But
I'm into a man,
boy. Here we go.
I was just about to make some Scientology comes,
Kevin and cat. I love you guys. Kevin hates you guys. It's so the definitely I've, I studied
for a while, and thought it was great. You know, had a good time there. Good, good, Faye and Sundays.
Oh God. All right. Here we go into the Thunderdome. We enter. We're both dead - Dead next week. It was nice knowing you guys.
Yeah,
so, where do we go from here? Hard to segue. I'll be interested. Yeah, so the introduction, yeah, email intro Henry, and I'm
excited. That be cool before I be into that. I mean, it overlaps
with so many of my interests. Yeah, and I'm not averse to it. I don't have an aversion to it. The word Enlightenment. I'm not going to lie bothers the shit out of me
because I gotta say that then bring that up. That'd be really curious to. Yeah. Yeah, just like the
idea of because it just creates this bifurcation between
Like the unenlightened and the enlightened, and it kind of creates this, right priesthood. And I have some fundamental allergic reaction to like this intermediate to the Divine if that makes any sense, and I'm not saying that is how it is presented with in Zen Buddhism. But I do see how that could be used to create power dynamics that are unhealthy. Yeah,
so that that's that's that's one of the things that I was concerned with having grown up in a religious household and later, you know, kind of understanding that some of what I was.
Was not necessarily true, but the reason I'm so attracted to them when we're talking about earlier is just like they ask you that. It's not about believing what they say. They asked you to taste it for yourself.
That's what they say. You know? Yeah, I dig that. That's cool. I can get behind that. Awesome. It will. Please make the intro and then I'll, I'll chat with mr. Henry. What
an episode. This has been we had lightning
strikes
and we tie almost from the beginning.
Technology, I have Kevin almost puked in the beginning. Technology was taken down by an act of God, right? Comfort. A lot of ground here. Yeah, good times, man. Well, it's a good thing. Good to spend some time together. Anything else you'd like to mention before we for a
wrap. I asked my wife, what we should talk about on the show, and she said, how about my podcast?
So I should
I go for is funny one. And yeah, so my wife died Heroes, she's a peach.
Dinero scientists from UCSF and she has a fantastic new show called the door Eros show. She's covered some crazy topics. Dude. She has other scientists on so they can talk science.
You should give some some background on Daria for people who don't know. I mean she has a lot of scientific training so you should yeah just maybe explain that for those who maybe first time
listeners. Yeah. Well, we just talked recently about Adam ghazali and his lab over it uses have. So she worked with Adam so she's got her PhD from there in.
Science, studied, stem, cell biology, and anything above and beyond. That is outside of my pay grade, but for her, what she loves to do these days is really focus on how to take science and break it down, like things that we can actually trust and break it down so that the average consumer can understand it. So she has several episodes on like, how can we trust vaccines? Why should we trust vaccines? What is the science actually say, who should we look for are too?
For that information. She's going to be covering like birth control. And what we understand in the science, there a lot of women's issues as well. How to raise children in a thoughtful way that doesn't damage them forever. She had dr. Andrew Weil on recently and they talked about how to trust alternative medicine. What do you know is true
up? And here's the head, which value
that? Yeah, how do you vet that stuff? So I'm just really proud of her, you know, she's just kicking ass doing she and Drew hiraman on the show like you said.
About this whole episode on sleep, so many great takeaways there. But yeah, she's done a great job and yeah, Daria Roche. Oh, yeah, Daria
is very legit and very, very smart. Very good at translating without dumbing down. Also. Yeah, which is true, it is but it's very hard to do. It is very hard to translate without dumbing down and she does a great job of that Miss starter. And now we need to get together. Well, couples.
Please give hugs to the Daria people. Definitely check it out. Anything else. That's it.
Dude. You can find me at Kevin rose on Twitter. Modern Finance is the podcast. It should say dot. It's called modern Finance. But if you want to go the website, it's modern but Finance on the web and Dad. Dude, thanks for having me on. This is fun. As
always. Yeah, man, super super fun. And for me, I don't have much to say, you can find me on teamed up log, everything I do is their Twitter at T, Ferris to ours to as is at
He I am Ferris at
Tim Ferriss on Instagram. Yeah, symptom coin is
the new coin. That's right. I'm going to launch that. They can do a salon and Kool-Aid can't watch a cryptocurrency under your name. Please don't. This is called Tim Tim coin. Oh, that'd be, that'd be really great for my liability. Just don't want to think about it. I'm going to bed by the way. Just launched two minutes ago. 11:00 12:00 p.m. Tim Tim.
Don't worry about, I'll take care of it. Yeah, but it's on your wallet. You know, what? A mess. What a mess. Yeah, won't do that. But I may do, I may do some, I made you some n FD. H.
NF T. Dude, you really
should? I mean, why not write me? Like people don't have to buy it and thank you. If you understand. This is a speculative experiment. I'm doing something weird to learn more about
it. Why not? Yeah, I definitely did on your first
Tim Timmons - hi episode 1.
All right, Kev, Kev. What's good to see you man? A brother good chatting
and everybody.
Listening, you'll be able to find show notes, links to everything, all the company's books compounds. God knows what that we mentioned. Japanese terms. Sorry show notes friend. You'll be able to find it at teamed up log for / podcasts. And until next time. Thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one. This is five. Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email for me? And what do you enjoy getting a shorty?
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