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Before my hands start shaking and I don't know it was a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal endoskeleton.
Hello, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show where it is my job to deconstruct. World-class performers of all different types. My guest today is a dear friend and this turned into a very fun, very wide-ranging conversation. Derek severs, dark servers. You can find him on Twitter at sivir's SIV. ERS is an author of philosophy and Entrepreneurship known for his surprising quotable, insights, and pithy, succinct, writing style. He has revised his bio. I love this.
And this ties into what we talked about in the actual podcast. He is a former musician, programmer, Ted speaker and circus clown, who sold his first company cdbaby for 22 million dollars. In gave all the money to charity Derek's books, how to live, helliya or know your music, and people anything you want and love anything you want. And newest projects are at his website, SIV e, dot RS, and you can also type in. Simmers dot organ will go to the same place but he likes the
As I ve RS. And there are two URLs that didn't exist when we recorded, but he promised to create Pages for them. And he has. So the first is a page for his newest book useful, not true. And that is at sivir's so SI v e, dot RS, / you, and the next is related to Tech Independence. So how would you get off of the cloud? Create your own Tech Independence and you can find the details? The
Step-by-step at Sever's / t.i. So again that is S IV, e dot RS, / t.i., and without further Ado, please enjoy this very in-depth, very eclectic conversation with the one and only Derek siver's.
You kick this party off. What do you think,
maybe. All
right, so I thought we would start first of all. Cheers, Cheers. Nice to Matt. Yes, that Mo Mike, thank you for the scotch blend, which we shall enjoy here. So I'll take a sip first.
Hmm, we have
scotch. We have, go go gadget black tea. What is this called, again?
Go Goa. Go go,
go, not go, get ice all good guy, so he's gonna go India.
The region.
Yes. So this is otherwise known as I do have a backup of Diet Coke in case this is podcaster speedball. So I expect is going to be a fantastic episode and for those who are not watching or those who may not have video in front of them, we have two different sized Scotch classes and if you were to walk into tax kitchen, you would find a wide assortment of glasses, namely one other glass only which he glitches.
Yet larger. It's like a Russian, nesting doll of three separate glasses. And those are the only glasses you have in the house
and I didn't buy any of them. They were just
so please. Please explain more.
Oh God,
because you walk the talk of certain types of minimalism. There are those out there who may not believe some of it. I'm just saying, or maybe skeptical how have a healthy skepticism. I'm telling you guys. He's got three glasses in this kitchen.
And this is my only pair of pants. And yeah, so these three glasses, I don't even think about it.
Because I just think about having what's enough. Yeah, right. So there's only me and my kid here. And so you come over and you say, okay, let's make some Scotch tape and you're like, do you have any like know that? That's all I got. I just set these glasses and honestly, I don't even know where they came from. But their work, they look and this is enough and these little bamboo cups, I got for my kids so that he wouldn't
break the so feeling we will come back to this, in a sense because there's a foreshadowing for people who are listening. If you have not read the Paradox of choice, Barry Schwartz.
He talks about maximizers and satisficers. So I think we'll probably come back to this in a bunch of different ways. But suffice to say, the embodiment of minimalism you also
have two
very nice suits that act as you are sort of outside in the world of
tire.
Which makes sense to me and only to the again, it's this idea of enough it's like I wear junk, basically home pajamas. I think on this pajamas, the big baggy t-shirt that somebody handed you to conference and you would never wear that outside the house. But Michael Brown, with Annie in London, when I lived in London, right before covid. Hit, I thought, you know, I'm living here by Savile
Row in London. I'm about to leave England forever.
I'm going to get a custom-made suit. So
Looked at them, what was his name sartorial talks? It's an interesting YouTube channel about somebody diving deep into like the craft of fine
clothes tailoring. He had tailoring. And
so he recommended this guy Michael Brown in London. So, you know, I went to Michael Brown and he said, what would you like? I said, you're the expert. You know, just dress me. So he told me what to wear and I do,
and because I have a little bit more context here and then he would ask. So, what type of shoes you're going to wear in your life?
Like, what should I wear? Yeah. Well, how are you thinking about X? And you be like, oh, should I be thinking about? Yeah, and this is something I've thought more and more about which is it's not so much quantity versus quality because there's a whole Spectrum, right? You can have things that are very good and you have half a dozen of them and making the sum of course, you get up. One thing that is the best subjectively or objectively and that's it. You have one or
Could have a ton of things and you're like, hey, I don't care about this thing. So this is a disposable item or service or fill in the blank in my mind. So I think we will probably talk more about this. But what comes to mind for me? Also, when I think about, say your suits, their great suits, your happy with them, you look good in them and I think about, in contrast, my accumulation of ill-fitting suits in part because my body weight has fluctuated so much in my life, right? I've gone from 145 to 220 in both cases, being pretty lean.
So I have like kind of fat boy Tim jacket and then I've got like really really skinny emaciated, Tim jacket and then I've got things in between, but I don't need most of those in yet. I still have them or not from the perspective of fit, but Kevin Kelly in his new book, which is, I think it's simply called excellent life advice, something like that. And one of the bits of advice was along the lines of. Yeah, you know how you have that bad pain. It's like throughout the bad pain deliberating
Advent. Yeah, it's about self-respect, isn't it? Yeah, even something. As simple as a pain, when I've done that, I went, I'm better than
this. I'm not going to make. This feels pain is
I'm not going back. Yummy any longer?
Yeah, you're only as good as the worst pain in your house. So, let's start with a story. And I have not heard this story because he began telling me and I said, no, I don't hear it. I've seen, let's save it. Scuba diving, that'll be my googa diving, scuba diving. That would be my
cue, and what it taught me.
About empathy and identity,
amazing, I'll listen to the Ted talk.
So I was in Iceland and I never had any intention to go scuba diving but I was at that place in nothing, failure Park, if you've ever been there, where the two continental plates meet, the American continental plate, meets the Eurasian continental plate and there's this deep fissure in the ground, but it's Crystal Clear water so you can see all the way down. I like I want to go in there. I just
Like a
VM Spring Water, you know poured over rocks with nothing clouding, the water. So I was in Iceland for a month. So I went to take scuba diving lessons and the instructor was great. So it's a dive dot is at the time. It was just him and his basement and it was me and one other guy, learning scuba diving. So we did the practice in the swimming pool and we did all the theoretical stuff. You learn to scuba. Yeah. And so the swimming pool is great and I love the fact that it's calm that you don't need to panic about holding your
Or breath, it's just slow and meditative. But then the first time we went into the cold ocean and to be clear I had to wear one of those giant dry suits at you. Like you're a like a Spaceman with
four layers of rubber and stuff over the rubber.
So it's very claustrophobic. And then I get into the water and it gets down to about 20 meters. And I'm just like, oh God, do I hate this? I hate. I want to like I need to go. I need to I just wanna go back at home. I want to be on the internet, I want to be emailing my friend. I want to talk to my friend, I just want to know, I just I gotta get out of here so I wrapped on his tank.
And I went up to the top, you pointed. You pointed to go out. Yeah. Just like I tore off my mask and I just like I said, I don't want to and I said I'm just gonna go you guys, go ahead. I'm gonna wait on the side of their. I don't you go ahead. I'll just wait and he was so sweet. He was so cool. He looked at me and just stopped for a second and he said,
Hold on a second. He said it's a really nice day today he said, look around. Look at those mountains the only because see it's a nice day today. See ya, look at what a look at, what a beautiful area. We're in right now, see young. And then he said, you know, if you were to leave now he said, I know you're flying back in seven days if you leave now you wouldn't be able to complete the training and you wouldn't get your certification. I know you don't want that, he said, just relax for a second, it's all right.
And so I just relax for a second, you know, you inflate your BCD. So you just buoyant and you float and I went
All right. Yeah. What was I scared of?
It's fine. Okay, I'm ready. And so we go back down and I completed. It was great. It was no problem and I love being underwater. It's wonderful. So that was a completion of my training the next day was my first official dive. So we're there with a dozen other people that have flown to Iceland from around the world. Including this couple from Germany, that were bragging about, how many Dives they've done. We've done over 100 Dives. So they were acting like know-it-alls but then they're like, oh dry suit. We've never done dry suit before and so they getting into the rice you behind.
Outro, it's
tough. It's Different, it's
different and so I get underwater, but this time I am elated. I'm underwater just where I wanted to be in that Crystal. Clear Fisher there in thingvellir. I was like, wow.
And at 20 meters
down ISIS for The Angst 60 feet of
herself. Yeah, I just pretty deep. I
mean that's that's that's a deep dive bottom of where you're supposed to go as a
beginner and at the bottom, I see the German girl by herself and her partner is not there and I do the dive manners were taught where I gave her the okay symbol. Yeah. And she gave the not okay, symbol and I was like wait did my retirement? And I was like okay and again she goes not
Okay, and I see her eyes are looking crazy and went, oh, shit. I've been trying to for this, oh my God, I can do this. Okay, held onto her BCD, held onto mine inflated her as a bit asked, if she needed my mouthpiece. And she's her own helped her, get up to the surface and she gets up to the surface and she rips her mask off. Just like I did. She said I don't like this. I don't like no this is not good. I don't I hate this, I feel bad and I want to go and I said I just imitated the dive instructor exactly. I said
Hold on a second. I said, look around said, it's a really nice day. I said, isn't as great, as you see those mountains over there. So, just relax a second. I said, I'm here with you. It's okay. And so, she calmed down and I saw her, go do the same thing. I did, and calm down. And then her boyfriend showed up.
So, like, where the hell is the boyfriend? I don't know. So, you're on your own babe, I'm out of
here. I've accidentally missed one step in the storytelling of this that I should have included is
The night in between those two days. I went home that night thinking, what the fuck? I think I just had a panic attack. I'm not one of those people.
Like no respect for people
that panic attacks F because usually panic attacks to me, I think of like people who are just like, oh no. Like my cake is late. I'm gonna die and they freak out over shallow little things and it seems to me, like they have no perspective on life. So then I have no respect for that kind of silly panic, but I had just panicked and it was
Voluntary, it's like that night. I had this moment of Psych. Well, what does that mean? Am I a panic attack Personnel have, I changed categories from a not panic attack person to a panic attack person. I just kind of fell asleep with no answers to that. So then yeah. Then the next day, had this thing happen with a German couple and I feel like that experience taught me, two kinds of empathy that we categorize. People like I just said,
Type of person who has a panic attack, and we think of a category of person that's a like depressed, fat homeless, divorced, bankrupt, and you think I would never be those things. I'm not that kind of person but I thought, wow, like a lot of these things are involuntary. It's not like somebody chooses to be depressed and I realized I had been unfairly categorizing people the same way I had unfairly categorized.
Attack people because now, I am one right addiction. Somebody who said they would never be an addict, then they find themselves addicted to something that seemed harmless at first. And they have to admit, oh my god, I'm an addict, but then I realized that someday these, these categories might be me or anybody else. If you're, you know, categorizing people this might be you but then the thing that happened on the second day where there's another category that we don't think we could be, which is like hero rescuer.
Hmm. L
athlete things with a positive connotation
millionaire from people in the past few years have become millionaires, which is something that they held in a different category and that I'd never be that and suddenly there you have to admit I'm a multi-millionaire now it's a category. So I realized that we can even those categories can be involuntary that you can suddenly be a rescuer even if you never intended to be one just through the power of imitation. So you
And deliberately step into these roles by imitating others. So how do you
now think about labels that you apply to yourself? And I asked that in part? Because as you're speaking, I think of how it can not only be unfair to say I'm this and not that or that person is this and not that but if you're applying it to yourself and you have very narrow categories. So you have very
Finely tuned labels. I think it makes you
fragile. Hmm. Because you are
susceptible to the whim of chance, in a way that I think is not particularly resilient. If suddenly your circumstances change and you find yourself in a different category, it can be really upsetting. And how do you think about what you call, or don't call yourself? We're talk a little bit about this at lunch.
Before we record it right there. People are like I have read stoicism. Now I am a stoic and there's this identity that's assumed and these labels that are
applied. And
as much as I love stoicism, even though I invoke that name, I do think that we have to be careful with labels. So how do you think about that for yourself?
Well-timed, first, sip of scotch,
by the way audience, the hardest thing about hitting record on this is that Tim and I have these like crazy all over the place conversations in the forest and what not that. It's hard to remember that. We need to close tangents today youngest, really? We open a tangent that's close it two days later. Yep. That's pretty close tensions today. Okay. So, do you want me to go on my auntie ISM tangent?
Well, let's see. Is there some unfinished business that we need to tidy up? First,
there's a tiny idea around the identity, which is to just admit that, whatever you are is now and whatever your preference is now. So like, when my kid says, I hate Tomatoes, I say today and he goes, oh, right. I hate Tomatoes today because it's leaving open the possibility that you might change your mind tomorrow. And he, did I hate olives. I hate hate.
Hate olives so badly. You jerk. Okay. And he picked this up from me, right? So he's like I hate olives too, but he was just imitating me and then we went to Subway one day, I was so proud of him. He walked up to the counter and he said, I would like olives. And they said, do you want anything else? He's a ham, just Hammond, olives,
and they loaded
this sandwich. Full of olives. And I looked at it like, horrified, he ate it and loved it. He goes, I like olives now. It's like, yes, I love that.
Switching between identities. And so I used to call myself an entrepreneur and other people would call me an entrepreneur. And then I did my first book that was about that. So I got categorized as
an honorary Newark, by the way. Thank you, thank you for the full anything you want. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I recommend I recommend people check it out. I've read it multiple times. Go bucket. I love that you did the forward. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome
for years. I kept calling myself an entrepreneur until one day I realized. Like wait a second. This is expired. Somebody who
As an athlete in high school can't keep calling himself an
athlete forever. Yeah, I've learned that one. You have to keep learning that
title or it expires, right? Same thing with being a good friend. It's same thing with any labels that we call ourselves. You can't just keep using that forever. You have to keep it up or it expires. So if you realize that your previous identity is expiring, you have the choice. Then of either, admitting I was an entrepreneur, I was a musician.
Ian or if you don't want it to expire, well then you need to do something about it and they go actively be a good friend. Not just keep calling yourself a good friend or go actively be an entrepreneur. If you want to keep calling
yourself that same may be skipping ahead because I do like mixing tangents great, but that's the nature of conversation, especially when you have go, go, gadget, T and Scott involved.
We were talking about this the other night dinner. Revising say we use language. We're creatures of language mean. Part of the reason that we become such a dominant passed on the planet, is our ability to use Concepts in abstraction. And you'd mentioned at one point thinking of yourself after entrepreneur as a writer.
How did you make that
switch?
Looking to Your Heroes, I call it my people Compass, if you're not sure which way to go, you can ask yourself. Well, who do I admire, who do I like? Mmm. So for me, this was like, as I was not sure what direction I wanted to go. I am an entrepreneur and I'm a programmer and I'm an author. I actually thought about it in that order, maybe programmer first entrepreneur. And then writing seemed to be something. I was doing is just like a waste product.
I'll metabolite of your other focus and as
I'm doing my thing, if I learned some lessons there I just put them into writing. Yeah, but then I noticed that all of my heroes were authors. These were the people, I looked up to the most and that helped me realize my values, like it helped reveal my values. So, ultimately, like we want it to be our ideal selves and I think that your heroes are your idealized.
Off its kind of. That's why we idolize certain people as we want you to be like them. So the kind of reveals what your values are. So in that moment I went, oh my God. That's right. In my heart I'm actually more of an author and programming is fun. I love programming, I love what it empowers and I think we're going to talk about that later and I'm not an entrepreneur anymore. So in that moment I was like that's it. I'm really an author now, aren't I? Wow, that feels weird to me. I never thought of myself as an author but I think this is the reason I call it a people compass.
This is It's related to when you're not sure what business to start. A lot of people are they looking at the many different options right now? The way I think about it is asking yourself what kind of people do I like being around? Mhm. Because these are people, you're going to be serving, you have to like them, you want to love your customers and love serving them because ultimately, even if it's the money what you really really want is the emotional fulfillment, right? Yeah, totally. So you might get lucky by strategically choosing an industry or a
It, it's on its way up and you might get really lucky and become a billionaire doing something. But what if your customers are jerks, would you be happy? Getting rich, running an all-night vaping store. If you think of the kind of customers that would coming into your all night vaping store, are these, the people you want to serve and would you be happy even if you made a million dollars doing that? I think he'd feel pretty mixed
about you cry. Little embarrassed, tell you about my new startup them,
right.
It was asking yourself, like what
kind of people do you want to be around these centralized blockchain baby seal clubbing Expeditions. I'm not sure what hang out with the people who might go on that tour run by AI. We may need to refocus Kosh the rate we're gone. So
um yeah I think that if you set up your business to serve the people that you love being around. Yeah. Even if it makes less money, you're going to be much happier. Yeah, so that's where I'm at right now.
Now, like right now, I'm not an entrepreneur, but I'm starting to get that itch. I'm starting to feel like doing something and if I do, it'll just be to be around the people that I already love. Okay.
So let's poke it that a little bit being around the people, you love are many ways to do that. Why do you think you are, maybe leaning towards the entrepreneur vehicle for doing that versus doing other things? Is it what you know is there more to it?
Because it's it's asking yourself what would you do? Even if it didn't pay. Yeah, I'll just pick one example, and don't hold me to this world. If I don't end up doing this idea, do you know what? It's like seven years ago? I happened to mention that that week, we talked about, I was enjoying learning the history of hip-hop for six years. People keep telling me like so history of like, and we just, it was that week, come on.
So, all right, now I like olives, stop. Lecturing me about my past self. So
right now and idea I'm having is 100 Year hosting
Legacy, personal websites. So that setting up a trust so that your personal website will last on for 100 years
or 30 years after you. Die.
Sure. And this is the kind of thing I care about so deeply that I would do it. Even if it didn't pay, I would do it as volunteer work. And I really like people that have personal websites. They're my kind of people that enjoy technology for its own sake. That took what he called a boom of go, power since go power and or somebody take initiative.
Took the university setting. I don't speak Esperanto yet. Somebody there's a
little, and set up their own website. I like these people. Yeah, I like people that have personal websites that aren't doing it for money. Yeah. They're my kind of people and so I would be proud to serve them. Mmm, so that's all I meant by that.
Okay, so so many directions, we can go here, I think,
You alluded to it. So I not hop to it. Programming, the empowerment that can provide, let's talk about escaping the cloud or broadly speaking Tech Independence, he and to set the stage for folks. We were walking down the street here in Wellington beautiful, Wellington New Zealand. Central learning is all and well, yeah, the central area is a little bit, like, Haight-Ashbury in some respects but the people would get the reference but all in all, beautiful city, lots of hiking trails.
Shockingly similar to Northern California. I mean, I felt like I was flying at SFO, you have Monterey Pine here, you have eucalyptus, which we both borrowed from Australia. You have nasturtiums a lot of the vegetation here is similar. It's really nostalgic and kind of eerie and a way to be here because I feel like I'm back in early. I'll Finance like being on a time machine. In a case, we were walking around not in the on the nature side of things. But downtown and I said, you know, I'd love to ask you
That cyber security. And I said, let's say and I'm not going to use anyone's name. But somebody who's very technical and Hyper paranoid as like? Let's say, there are 10. Let's say your mom is a one not to make assumptions about your mom but I will where do you
fall on the
cybersecurity Spectrum? And that opened up a, I think fun discussion. We chatted you also then wrote in your diary about it the next morning you
have cuz I'm slow like
That you'll ask me something like that and in the moment so we're walking down Courtney place. I'll give some half-ass answer and then later that night, I'm like, ooh let me and
I'll push back a little bit. Yeah slow is relative. I mean I think that you were very coherent and you thought about it before you launched off into some type of monologue, which you didn't as a conversation but you then refined it the next morning. Yeah. So let's talk about this because you
Gave a couple of I wouldn't say recommendations you described a few things. You do personally that I found very interesting. One of which was you don't use the cloud, which I think we'll get a lot of people's attention because in part, I think there are many people who feel myself included. That
there's something
uncomfortable about it, but
I assume since I'm non-technical. They really just is not an alternative but there's part of me that's very privacy sensitive and is fundamentally uncomfortable with having all this stuff, all this miscellanea, all these impulsive, ridiculous group chats and whatever backed up somewhere else, hmm? For a lot of reasons, your phone book, you're killing me all alone, and all of that it's there. There's something deeply uncomfortable about it. And yet, I use the off the shelf
Tools because everyone else does and I just saw him there. No Alternatives that are feasible for a muggle like myself.
So Tim for Tim so incapable
dr. Silver's please, hold
court. So audience I prepared. I took notes because although I love Tim's podcast, I love it. Most when people come and give us like an intense data dump? Yeah no that's
not a toy guys. I prepared a couple hours in here you go.
So
I'm going to unapologetically read from my notes to give you the best, bang per Buck of your time listening. So Tech Independence is all about the fact that I think the main sales pitch of the cloud is now don't worry. Your little head about that. Let us take care of. It will keep all of your data see, isn't that easier? Now there we've got your data. Yeah, and it actually reminded me of something, I think you said in for our body about yoga studios that, no, it's not the best thing for your health, but it's a better profitable.
Them to sell you a yoga studio instead of deadlift. Yeah, freeway,
yeah, there's a lot of that in Fitness overall, for sure.
So there's an incentive. This is the tech equivalent of that, that I wish that history had gone such a way that we all had our own little private server at home. But instead, the cloud might have made a better sales pitch saying. No, no, give us all your stuff will take care of it forever. So my idea is, if you spend a few hours to learn how to do it yourself, you'll just have Tech Independence. What that means is self-reliance.
It gives you better security, better privacy, better freedom, but our flexibility and total control, and I think it's a great use of your time to spend a few hours learning to do this kind of like, somebody learning to drive manual transmission, right? You don't need to do it, but this is a good life skill to have. Especially imagine if we're in a world that had more this 50 years ago.
So, or now, in a lot of countries who still right on driving about
it. So I don't know if you've heard the same stories, I have about how many people have lost their Google accounts,
There's a guy. I know he's a very Savvy Tech entrepreneur in Singapore. Who? Because he was so tech-savvy he put all of his kids photos in the cloud. Since the day, his kid was born. He put everything under Google photos for 10 years. His kid was 10 years old. The day that he started a new company and said, I'm going to do the Google Apps for business. And it asked him a quick question, would you like to merge this with your existing Gmail account? He said, yes, he merged it on the next day. His wife was like, honey, um, we're all the photos of our kiddo. Go out there in Google photos, she's another night.
And he looked up he's like oh my God I mean they're gone and he emailed customer service and they said well no you chose to merge your accounts when we warned you that they only said, well could you please recover them? They said no, they're gone. This poor guy. Has no photos of his kid from ages zero to 10 because he trusted the clown. I mean, sorry Cloud.
Careful those clowns clowns and the class
clown tax narc. Okay, so um,
how are you do, that on purpose. I did
Osgood.
So yeah, any time with somebody talks about the cloud, Indiana change it to an end. Clown the cloud,
keep all my contacts in the
clown. So everything I'm going to describe here takes just a few hours to set up. This isn't a major major thing. It's not that hard listeners of yours are used to being suggested to learn how to do something. And let me
also preface this first quick s not a tangent by saying I do not experience.
You may be a missing something. Maybe of spider holes, dug in the backyard and do not experience you to be a hyper paranoid person. Hmm at all. So, I just want to mention that because folks might think, oh my God, this guy's got like 20 years worth of oatmeal and like, you know, gold bars and guns in the basement. And he's, this guy may be right? If I just would, I want to sort of set the proper reference point, which is, I don't experience you to be a paranoid person, not at
all.
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So first, let me just say, the first thing you need is to get your own server, which is a simple as five dollars a month. If you go to there's a company I recommend called vulture.com but it's spelled v ult.
Are.com could use some branding
help. But yeah, so they have something called Cloud compute for five dollars a month. We're basically that's setting up a private slice is just yours, but on a
shared cannot guess is like a virtual private server. Virtual private server,
exactly, as trying to knock a
technical. Yeah, so
And a server for people who don't know. I know this is going to be old news for a lot of folks. What is the server? Sound super complicated and
Technical, it's just a computer that's always online. That's it publicly accessible always online doesn't even necessarily need to be public. Will get to that because I think for setting up your server, there are three options either, the five dollars a month. Vulture.com Cloud compute number to search the web for cheap dedicated server. So, now, a dedicated server is an actual piece of Hardware. That is only your's not shared with anybody else. So if you want more,
Privacy. Just spend a little extra money and get a dedicated server, which means you have this physical Hardware. You're the only person that has they have physical access to it, but you have the only root password and it's gonna be an encrypted hard drive will get to that. The third option is go to any used Marketplace and find an old used Lenovo ThinkPad ideally from the T 400 series. You can get these for under $200 now and they're great and they run any old operating system and you would just set this up in your closet.
And keep the master version of your server in your closet and then the other things would be mirrors of that. But we'll get to that in a second. Okay
so here comes my, you have done some work because
then here's my quick how-to and I'm going to tell you a few things here that aren't complete instructions but they're enough for you to search the web. So I'll tell you what to do and you can search the web for exactly how the first thing you're going to need to do is to use the terminal. So the command line in the mac its built-in you go into utilities folder. It's called terminal on Windows. It's called Powershell and
And anybody using Linux, you know what it is? So the operating system, I'm going to recommend the one I use is called openbsd, and we touched on this, on the street, the other night, the reason I use
openbsd body sadomasochism so
quickly software. Discharge, I was born in Berkeley, California, and kind of like, more people named Dennis go into Dentistry because there's an affiliation of names, Freakonomics pointed that out. I always wonder if my Affinity with the BSD operating systems is because I was
born.
In Berkeley Berkeley, who knows?
Anyway, but the reason I got turned on to openbsd is because I used to have Linux server as a public server and it was hacked. And the guy at the data center said, yeah, that's been happening a lot lately. He said you might want to switch to BSD, it's a lot more secure. So, openbsd is designed from the ground up by super security Freaks and part of i-it's, so secure is, it's so simple. It's a very, very simple operating system that doesn't do everything under the sun.
It does this that I'm describing and it does it really well and it's secure as hell and it's
got as I understand it. Few lines of code. Yes, right. Which means, let's just say you're a writer. The more you write the higher, the frequency of typos. Yes. And you don't want bugs, yes, in your code that I can be
exploited the last code, the better. So install openbsd and follow the instructions to encrypt, one of the disk partitions in there as you're installing it, then you're going to use SSH, which chance for secure shell to log into it. Then on your home computer use that.
Terminal to generate a private SSH key. You do sh Dash Keygen the type. You want to zd2 5519. And then that's going to generate two keys, a private key and a public key, you upload the public key to your server. And then after you do that edit your SSH configuration file to disable password logins. So, now the only way to log into your server, is with your private public key that you just generated, right? Very similar to the crypto public private thing. Then you go into your
Dot-com settings, you edit your firewall to only allow Port 22 which is the port that SSH uses to connect. Once you've done that voila, now your server is super secure, nobody can get in except you from your computer. The generated private key through SSH is the only way to connect to that
server Q. Explain the generated private
key. Yeah, it's really just a single command you type on the terminal. If you type SS H dash, Keygen space Dash t space, Edie to 5519. It will ask you for an optional password,
And it just creates the private key and a public key, same name. But one has the dot pub at the end. Mmm. And then you just use whatever tool you want to
upload the dot
Pub to your remote server, and put it in the correct place and authorized Keys file and voila. Now it will instead of asking you for your password, it just uses the private key and the public key matching as to let you in got, it
says like Marco Polo. Okay. Yeah. We're at as opposed to entering a password every
time, right? And that's why then you want to change the SSH.
Each server configuration files to disable passwords. So even if a billion script kiddies were trying to hack your server to guess your password passwords are just
disabled. Okay. This is keep track where you are. Yeah, do you think this will become and I'm non-technical folks? You've probably guessed but this type of Marco Polo. I can remember the proper way to the private keys and so on Prime public is whatever. The term is will become more and more prevalent as say
Quantum Computing and so on allows.
The current level of encryption to be decrypted more and more effectively. I'm just, I'm just wondering about. Well, this is going to take us off animation changes
already. I think it's what our phones are already doing behind the scenes, you have WhatsApp, encrypted, chats, or FaceTime, or even just our phones themselves when you type in that code, when you first turn on your phone, I think our phones are already behind the scenes using public private key and yeah, so that's the way it should be. It's just it is the best solution so far, I think I'm side note. If
your four digit password on your phone, you can change that to
Eight digit, simple, upgrade, and
settings. Okay, so next thing you need to domain name. My recommended place to get a domain name is a wonderfully, nerdy non-commercial site called book, my name.com. Okay. And
YN am getting do you do. Don't get 10%, affiliate costly. Not wait till you see the site. It's like the one Falls. Filner DPS it. There's no affiliate program
as a backup. I use net. I m.com. Both of these are French companies grow and there's a third one in Portland Oregon
that I like called pork bun.com there.
There you all three of these are really good. Reputable places to get a domain name. I recommend them. No affiliate fees at all. I just like them. I use them. Okay, so now you've got a server. Mmm. And the best thing to start with, like he said, I'm not a guy that's got stock piles of oatmeal and gold, but once you've got, I don't know why you picked up meal,
but once hello Bill. Once you've
got your own server, it puts everything else into perspective. So, that's really where I'm coming from when I say. Like, I don't do things in the
Cloud is because when companies come out and say, we can take care of this for you. Yeah, it's like, you've already got in your bread and peanut butter and jam in the kitchen. And somebody says, we can make a sandwich for you in your own home. You think I don't
need your help for those people who listen to what you just said. They're like. I think I just heard a lot of Klingon. I'm not sure. But I can't. Parse. What any of that means? It sounds overwhelming, right? What would you say to them?
I care about this so much that I'm going to set up.
A really dead. Simple thing, that's basically just do this copy gold. This this is going to work, look at that so email me. God damn it e. Tell you write
a blog post. Derek severs doing will
help us what
you've only written 52 million blog post since like so
1987 you know what I registered the domain name cloud-free with the.net. Estonia. Yeah so I love
free.com wasn't available. I don't know, I just
Is clever, I don't care. I'm good
for now. But someday, I'm going to write this up into a very simple. You don't need to understand this yet. Just do this eventually. Understand. Because that's how I learned her my
photos of dark Services. All my father's. That's what I really
wanted. I want your photos because that's how we all learned it first, right? It's often like just do this. You'll understand it later. Yeah, not just do it. I think that's a fine way to learn if you trust the source right. Trust me. So it's not as
Hard as it sounds, okay. Looks
like someone describing how to hit a baseball. You be like, what the fuck? That was like, 15 pages of describing and I sounds too hard. Like, actually. No, I just got to try it a few
times. Yeah. Okay. So, um, by the way, you know, it's cute. My kid didn't know what baseball is. They played baseball last week at school and he said, Dad what's this thing with the squares and set up in a and he hit a home run on his first try. Oh,
wow, it's all downhill from there. I put on the stop. You exactly
really cheering for me but I didn't know what I'm supposed to do. They told me to run. Okay so now let's talk about some applications of
So you have a server setup, here's what you're going to do with it, first, do your contacts and calendar. So I don't like the fact that my phone automatically gives Google all of the contacts and all of my calendars
or apple or whatever.
So you can set up. It's called radical. Our ADI. See a l.e.d. website is
radical dot-org.
It's absolutely free open-source 3D. I see a Ellie? Yes. Okay. Dot o-- r-- g--, it's absolutely free.
Open source. It sets up, what's known? As a carddav and a caldav server on your server. This will be the new server that you sync your contacts and calendars to. So it's dead. Simple blue, a minor. You install a radical on your server. You just basically type one command and says okay it's running using, okay? And then you go into your phone and instead of telling Apple to manage your calendar and contacts, you just set it to your domain name and suddenly it says put okay synchronized. And now every new contact you add and every calendar entry.
Synchronized with your
server, not a band. Actually, I have gone through this process before. Okay, I can tell people, it's quite simple because things are probably changed. But quite a few years ago, if you wanted your say Cal on Mac and Google cal to sink. Hmm. Huge pain in the ass, right? You had to use a third so you would have to use a third party and at least I end up using caldav long time ago that since changed. But yeah. So this is not very hard, daddy money. That's why I started
with this. Yeah.
It's like the simplest thing to set up and
10 the most sensitive in a way. Our some of the most sensitive. Yeah, calendar. So important to know that my contacts
aren't being sent to yeah. Other people. And then you see it backed up yourself because there are some people that get locked out of their Gmail account or whatever, and then they're just screwed because all their contacts are in there but yeah you have them yourself. Okay. So next thing is file storage. Where photos books, e-books movies, documents everything else, they're just files. So the first thing you want to do is to export them out of the apps that are like the wall.
Naps like Kindle and apples photos app and save it as regular files. EPub jpeg mp3 mp4. Just Open Standards to export it out. You save it there. And now you've just got regular files. You don't need any Cloud, you don't need Dropbox, you don't need Google drive. You've got your own server. So every computer has this dead simple little program. Built into it called rsync R Sy n see. Well Max have it built-in windows. I think you might need to install it or maybe it's there with new power shell and all it does is synchronize the
Different. So if you have 10,000 files and you've changed three of them today, and your remote server has 10,000 files, but not the new three you type rsync. It'll just send the newest three that you've changed. Hmm, that's it. So our sink is built in but you have to manually type our sink and the command and your server name and it'll go. So that's what I do. But if you're a fan of Dropbox there is a free replacement for Dropbox called sink thing. S, YN C th ing dotnet, so it's totally free open source.
We're
going to give you more scotch to see what it does to your spelling a lot of spelling.
So completely free and open source and it does that more like automatic style instead of manual
synchronization, let me pause. So in your particular case, you think automatic sync, do you like automatic sync?
I like having the delay between my servers
because if you fuck up. Yes,
right. Because I accidentally delete a file. Even if it's a week later, we'll get to actually know what I'll talk about this right now.
Now I have my servers cloned, so that's actually the next step I would recommend. Anyway, once you've got this on, it's working for extra security, go back and repeat that first step and set up. Another server with a different company in a different country and do it again. Do the SSH Port thing, then you can use our sink or sink thing. Not just to clone between your computer and your server, but that server in the other server, I have a
great idea. Okay, you ready? Yeah. All right. So this next chapter,
Of dr. Silver's entrepreneur interacting with customers. You like who I'm personal websites? You could create a service that helps people liberate themselves from the cloud for those who own personal websites, and just like it anyway. I can't, you know, it's just an idea. You guys, you seem to be philosophically aligned with this?
Yeah, I'm passionate about it. It upsets me when people are bound to the cloud are just going to use everything in the
Companies had them in the dependent, on the sir, it's about being dependent. It's about the self-reliance people who were dependent on others. Like imagine if everybody in their own home, was like dependent on somebody else to make them food, they didn't know how to make their own food. You'd feel bad for them. Like, come on, it's not that hard. If there's a knife, here's some bread. Some peanut butter. See you could do it in like, that's how I feel
with these things. You only need three glasses. It's easy. I would also say that
It's not just about being dependent, it's about being informed. So do you have complete understanding or near complete? Understanding of how you are storing sensitive information, when's the last time anyone listening to this, or even I'll speak for myself, Yours. Truly read the complete terms and service when something pops up and it's 27 pages and yeah. Okay, click accept, there's a lot of stuff buried in there. There's a reason there are
Our armies of lawyers that work on terms of service, and that they're updated constantly, which is nice to tune
into people who care about that stuff deeply, and they can act as a nice natural filter to let you know. If somebody's being good or being bad, that's how we found. You know, when I recommended book, my name.com for demands it was like some super nerd that recommended that they're like oh these guys are old school Unix. You want to go with these guys. Like, you know, they're not these new salesman trying to, you know, raise venture capital for their domain selling. These are just old school nerds doing it for the right reason. That's what I like to hear. These are my people, okay? So I
Of three servers Now set up in New Zealand, US and Germany. And I like the delay between them. So, I have one that I update every night, sometimes, multiple times a day manually. Yeah, I just type our think right before I shut down my computer backs up my, today's work to my remote server and then about once a week, I back it up to the second server. Then about once a month, I back it up to the third server and I really like that delay because there have been times that I've deleted something like a whole week later. Oh
crap.
We ask a dumb question, may be why delete anything storage is so cheap
- no, I mean, more like, deleted lines of
code. Like, I say, it's done with right. There was a revision that you want to undo. Yeah, yeah.
And sometimes even using get, but sometimes I'm not and sometimes it's gone, it's rare, but every now and then, okay, so website is a no-brainer. The open BSD operating system comes with its own web
server,
so I highly recommend. No offense to don't install WordPress. Oh, we love you Matt, I adore.
Matt. But I think everybody should learn how to do it themselves. Yeah, it's not that hard to do an H1 tag h2p tag, ul, ul. I a href image source, you can learn it in an hour? Yeah, and voila. Now you can make your own HTML website and anybody I because I get this question about once a week by email people saying, what do you recommend? I want to make my own site. Well, hold on, let's
hope not to push back, but I'll just to stress test a little bit WordPress is open source. Why not
use it? You
Right. But see WordPress is I think last time I counted 38 billion lines of code. Yeah. And it does way more than what you need. So it's kind of like, if you said, I need some scissors and somebody hands you to the contents of an entire hardware store. And like, know, I really just need to cut this. So I think most people what they want from a website is I have some thoughts, I want to put them in writing for the world to read. Mmm or I have a couple photos. That's what most people want but then
Of Wordpress and I used it for years, but it does everything and I think it intimidates people to the point of paralysis. Yeah, so that's why I say whoa. No hold on my top recommendation is, don't let people tell you that this is complicated because if you look at WordPress or similar services, and by the way, I'm just saying WordPress. I mean, it could be ghosts, it could be any of these things. You get the impression that making a website is hard. Yeah. But it's not it's just a plain text file that you change it from .txt.htm L knew add in a couple bracket tags. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah. And then you uploaded
It works, and it and the world can see it. So I just constantly remind people how simple this can be. And I say that, even if you just do it this way for the first month, please like make your own static HTML, webpage.
Even I think is a good exercise. Even if you end up later, using something exactly, right? That's what I was getting to. Yeah. So
start by doing it that way and then
If you need something that another service offers, you'll recognize that you get home, because you'll know, I
agree with that. I mean, I edited the first 30 to 40 episodes of my podcast. Mmm, there's a lot of work and I'm not a master at it, and they're far better people who work on it now for these later episodes, but I felt good doing it in the beginning. And I was like, all right, if I'm going to delegate anything, to the extent that it's feasible, I'd love to learn how to do each thing.
Otherwise, how am I going to assess anything? Yeah, exactly.
Okay. I'll name one, last one. And then we're done with this subject. The last thing I'm going to recommend is email, so it very least, get off Gmail and use your own domain name. It's so important to switch your email to your own domain name. You can do that with G sweet though. I know. But we're talking about that the The Liberation of the independence. It's knowing that you aren't dependent. Yeah. On these guys. So I think it's crucial to extract yourself from the will take care.
Save it for you thing. So the three things are going to recommend the three different options in order the simplest cutest little one I found is male
box.org is in Germany
and for $1 a month they do nothing but host your email and I think maybe your calendars but you know we've already talked about that. Yeah but mailbox dot-org you point your domain name at them they do your mail, they're cute, they're great. Well privacy focused if you want the luxury full premium is sweet of like the best email client on Earth. You go too fast.
The mail.com last mail.com is amazing, it's five dollars a month but again it's they're taking care of it for you. So you know the third option is coming. You can host your email yourself on your own server. Hmm it's dead. Easy to receive a mail. It's a little harder to send email. You have to set up a few config files, but it's not that hard. I do it myself. It's a bit Advanced, but it's possible and I assume that that would come maybe as you know, step eight. After you've done other
things, right? That's like, if you're starting on the bunny slopes which were the
Stages. This is like, okay, now you're getting us some Moguls. Yeah, don't try this day. One. Get familiar with the gear first. So I would be curious to know how you would reply to. People are listening in there like mailbox, dot organ, Germany, fast mail, I've never fucking heard of these things. Green to wait, wait, hold on, hold on, which is not to say they're not robust and amazing and cute as you put it, but they'll say I have more confidence in Google being around in five years, than I do in these companies, which I know nothing about.
A you can have certain degree of liberation of your infrastructure fails or these people put up a closed for business sign and suddenly the hardware upon, which things are being stored is game over. I guess I'm wondering how you would address people with those types of
concerns everything. I've segrete commended here was a recommended with that, in mind. You should expect that you will outlive most businesses. Yeah, I think that to me is the biggest misconception.
Conception that people have about Facebook, or Apple or Google. Did it's likely you might outlive Google and Facebook? Yeah, those of us who were around in the first yacht combat
history repeats. Yeah, it's certainly well within the realm of possibility. It
was Unthinkable in whatever 1999 that Myspace wouldn't be around. Maybe, what was that
2003. So how is smell box.org better?
Because everything is done with your own domain name. So, if male box.org ever sends actually, if they just
One day. Mmm, you'd go. You just login to your domain name router and just routed to another
service because
everything is being sent to be timid tim.com. So you have your own domain name, you can just route it to a different mail server, same thing with the server's. I'm talking about if one of these services in Germany or New Jersey suddenly went under no big deal you've got your clone your remote clone
servers and cried
saying right. So all of this is expecting everybody to fail. Yeah. Yeah. So the conclusion is I think this is a great use of your time
Now it's liberating, it's empowering and then when somebody tries to sell you a service, you'll know that you can do it yourself if you want to and you might still choose to have them. Do it
question for you. So if somebody is listening, they say there's no fucking way. I'm going to do all that. However, I be interested in dipping my toe. In the water I may be doing the first thing just to learn some new technology, gain some confidence. I'm not going to do the whole kit and caboodle because it just sounds overwhelming. But like I want,
Do sort of science project with. Yeah, some experimentation. What might you recommend
to them? I say the first baby step is to get your own domain name. Hmm. Definitely. And then move your email off of Gmail. Just go to some
third party. Provider of you concede start with
email. I think so it's the simplest. It's the only one of their that's not truly setting up your own server. Hmm. Although I mean that would be, you know obviously that's the next step is just do that first thing and just have like a couple hours of something that feels uncomfortable in New To You.
But voila you have a server that's running anywhere in the world and once you have a server everything else is easier. Yeah. The baby steps is to just get your own domain name and switch your email to that and try to just move everything off of Gmail or just let your old gmail and be your junk account. Okay?
Question for you personally, if you had to choose between having your email off of the cloud or calendar and contacts,
We can only choose one, so calendar and contacts. Come together emails. Another. Hmm. Which would you choose?
I don't know why there's a sense of happiness and having my calendars and contacts be on my own server.
Yeah, I lean that way too. And I don't know if I could verbalize why that's the
case mail sending has been come unfortunate difficult because a lot of things, get marked as spam, unless you do a bunch more complicated things. That's
right. So think about that. I could see that being a huge
problem. So the way I actually have my mail server set up right now and I don't mean this to
unlike their friends to be Gmail when we fight.
All incoming email comes directly into my server. Yeah but for sending I actually use a service called mailgun that just handles the sending so they take care of all the deliverability.
Yeah it's not an ESP but it's helping or maybe it isn't ESP. Like an email service provider I mean is yeah I guess there are going only. Yeah I think I wonder I think sendgrid does yeah. Handle some of this as well? Yeah they're one of the thing to your. You really
just using their sympathy service. Just to send the outgoing mail, receiving it private.
So, let's make some grilled those guys have done such a good job, at least last I checked and I met them when they were just starting. I met them at techstars a million years ago. And this is an example of where being non-technical hurt me because I just didn't know what I was looking at the guys were super great. Clearly, very swear when I was like, I don't understand this. Wait to, you know, give me a message for
the Shopify. Oh man.
I mean, my most expensive mistake. I don't
know the my little thing with Toby.
Oh yeah. Yeah I'll leave. I'll hit that one. No, that's okay. Yes selling shop virally was my best my most expensive mistake ever as their first advisor and they had like ten employees. So audience theories is candid moment. The iso goes to chemo I just want to say that. Also God I love the shop I guess I just thought there's socrate Toby Harley the whole gang just great humans. It's really it makes me so happy.
When the good guys and gals do well, but it just makes me so happy. So cute story.
Sometimes people ask if I can introduce them to you. Yeah, yeah, I respect your time. Yeah, I appreciate that. By the way, I love your, your email address.
Oh yeah, yeah. It's basically says, fuck off.
It's essentially fuck off. Tim Ferry. It's not
an aggressive, but he ain't makes it clear like think twice before show you out.
Dare this to
anyone, Tim Ferriss.com,
that is his personal email me. Yeah, a little wordy but you know, it's worth
it. Give him a hurdle so um, I would Toby. So I love the Ruby programming language. And so before there was Ruby on Rails, I learned Ruby in a cabin in Sweden that I was offline for two weeks. So I brought a programming book with me. I was like, well, I got the offline for two weeks might as well, learn something new. So there was this really unknown little
Language called Ruby as like, that sounds fun. So, I grab this Ruby book installed Ruby on my laptop and went off to this cabin, in Sweden in the winter for two weeks as offline. And I learned Ruby for two weeks. I came back like that was so much fun. I wish I could use this to make websites and there was news that there was this guy named David in Denmark who was doing something with websites and Ruby. So I emailed him saying, hey somebody said you're making like a web framework and Ruby and he emailed back saying not ready yet. That's all he said. And
so for those who don't know, that's d.
Ehh. David Hannum are
handsome. Yeah and so then rails came out about eight months later and at first look I was just like huh? This is a little confusing, I don't really get it. And so I posted to like the Ruby mailing list. Can anybody tell me? I'd be happy to pay somebody for an hour of their time to show me how this works. So some guy named Toby said, I'll show you rails for $100. I'll spend an hour with you, so I paid Toby $100 to show me rails for an hour and he showed me over the phone.
We never met face-to-face. It was all just over the phone. I was living in LA and Toby was great. He showed me how rails works and like got me really into it. Like, all right, I'm in and so my old company CD Baby, we started converting everything over to
rails like this is great.
So a couple years later I get this email from Toby saying hey not sure you remember me guy that taught you rails said could you introduce me to Tim Ferriss because I've got this little e-commerce thing I'm doing. I was like feet Commerce thing.
No.
Like sorry, dude, bad.
So I didn't introduce you guys. So, I was thrilled later to find out that Toby's little e-commerce. Thing is Shopify or became
Shopify. Camp Shopify became Lee Shopify.
And then I was thrilled to find out like another year or two later that
you were, we met at railsconf of all places.
Wow, I was a
speaker at railsconf which I felt. I was supremely under-qualified but I met
The Green Room at railsconf. See ya. That's how you met us and yeah, that's how we met. Yeah, well I don't
so Toby and I've emailed since then about like joking about yeah. Sorry. I didn't introduce you.
Yeah. Toby's it all. Worked out Toby's a spectacular, human. Big big fan.
It's kind of funny that somebody listening to this thinks that we might be talking about tech and programming the whole time. But no, that's it. We're done. Welcome talk about Unix. Command line terminal stuff, anymore out.
Well will sigyn zag so let's dig a little bit.
You know, there's so many options here for where to go next. I think
what I'd actually like to talk about is the unoptimized life, if you'd be open to going there. Next, we do you think? Yeah. All right, let's do it.
London London, 2019. Woo.
Is going to be goody fucking good train
from Oxford to London and it was one of those days that looked like, it might rain. It might not. So we made a plan on the train. I said, okay, if it's raining, we're going to go to the museum and if it's not raining, we're going to the zoo and he said,
Okay, so we got to marylebone station in central London we walked out and he said you know Dad I don't want to go to the zoo or the museum. I said what do you want to do? Said just walk around sure. Yeah okay we just walked around so at every intersection he said let's go this way, it's okay. And so he just led the way through London that day, we walked around 48 hours. So at one point, he was jumping around park benches and these kids from Croatia where they got into little tickling match.
And another time in like little Alleyway he saw this huge cardboard box. It was like, almost as big as he is, and he got into this cardboard box and wore it like a turtle shell. So he walked around London, in a cardboard box for like an hour, and
everybody would do double takes looking at him, and he's felt so
cool in the cardboard box. And then at some point, we found ourselves right in front of the West End, musical Wicked. And the show is about to begin in 10 minutes. I said, do you have any tickets were the best tickets you have? They had a thrill Center tickets, they had two left.
It's like yeah, let's do it, let's go see Wicked. So he left his cardboard box there. We went in and saw Wicked. And at one point, he whispered to me, he said, dad, I like the girl next
Next, is it? Okay, and later, I look over and he's holding her hand held her hand because they held hands. And so show is over. We go home and I tuck him into bed that night. And I said, did you have a good day? And he said, I had a great day. And I said, I said, what was your favorite thing today? And he thinks for a bit and then he said, the cardboard box and I was like, I marveled at that, I was just thinking later. Like if I would have planned and said, no, we're going to the museum come
On. It's a, it's an important museum for you to know, then he wouldn't have had this unoptimized experience and stumbled into the cardboard box. And so, of course, you know, I think about life and I think about like that day as a metaphor for how we tend to make plans because plans seem to be the tool we use to make the most of our time. Hmm. But that doesn't always make sense does it because like as you go through life, you keep getting new information.
Moment to
moment.
That helps you make the best decision for that moment. Not what you thought would be the best decision earlier when he Mainland which was a prediction. I think about like, for example, this stupid house I'm in right now. So this is my stupid house, everybody. I don't like
this house but here I would never guess based on your assortment of matching plate where and, how much energy. I've kind of put into this house and making it perfect with all of its stakeholders.
There's nothing on the walls and no furniture. Yeah, so um, except for some ice. Yeah. There we were. Going to
legitimately. Yeah, I have three pet mice. We were going to bring them
out, but be
distracting. I thought about getting rid of this house and getting a hous that was more suited for me and actually put an offer on a place. Hmm. And it was a really nice place. It was at the end of Clyde key Wharf. It's out there and like in the water and oh, man, it was nice and so is like the night before my offer was accepted and it was a night before I was going to
Put down the deposit, it was going to be mine.
I fell asleep that night thinking at first thought I was thinking. I'm going to be so happy tomorrow and then I thought, wait, I'm already happy. What am I going to be more happy tomorrow? No, I'm already happy. It's like, well then, why am I doing this? Why am I spending a bunch of money if I'm already happy. So, I yanked it. So I didn't buy it. And here I am in this stupid house because it has no obstacles. Like, it's warm. It's quiet. It's not suited to me perfectly, but that's okay. Like, it doesn't.
Don't get in my way. And then, from there, I think how many other things in our life, are we okay to just not optimized depends where you draw the line, right? Your romantic relationship, your job, your family, but nobody has the perfect family of their wishes are location where you live. Are diet. You have to kind of decide what's worth optimizing that we don't need to optimize everything, it's okay to have some things be good enough. And so I'm so glad you brought up the Paradox of choice.
By Barry Schwartz. I really fucking internalized that book. It's a great book, the ending of that, where he says, like okay I've been describing the problem. So what's a recommendation? And he says satisficing, there's maximizing and there's satisficing
tied. No idea. You're going to bring this up. This is great. Yeah,
maximizers have been found to feel worse about the decisions. They make they look into every possible option. They try to make the best possible choice.
But studies show that they feel worse about the choice. They make, whereas satisficers may not make the absolute best possible choice, but they feel much better about the choices they make. Yeah, I think a lot of who I am is because of satisficing. And if I seem like I make weird decisions in life, for example, like not even continuing to pursue making money. Hmm, it's because I'm satisficing. Like I really took that lesson to heart and have shaped my life around it.
So just for definition terms, right?
Because people might think optimizing is trying to eke out the every last iota of improvement, right? But I think what we're really talking about 30 interrupt, you know what? Like, if you would have
here Paul. McCartney, go. Hey, Jude. You like whoa. Just to hear him sing two notes. Yeah, to here you go. Optimizing.
That is my legacy.
Optimizing.
I think what we're talking about is where to focus, your finite energy on improving versus leaving things as they are right in a sense, right? Because I think optimizing when I think of optimizing optimizing is leading to Optimal. What does that even mean? It's open-ended, so it just continues forever but it's a helpful word. I'm just curious how you currently think about
Where to focus your energy on improving externally versus leaving things be and this is a conversation that's near and dear to me and one of my most effective friends.
Basically has said I'm paraphrasing was like yeah optimized for like one or two things and everything else is good enough. Like I just yeah I just have to get it to good enough. Nice that's it and he's incredibly effective in life and he's also very happy guy in general. Hard to know how much of that is out of the box versus due to the decisions and the way he views the world, but seems to contribute. So how do you think about then where you might maximize versus where you satisfice, or is it? Because I know it's
Not good enough across the board. I find that hard to
believe. What do I maximize? I'm not sure or maybe.
Maximizes two polarizing a word.
Do you know what I think it is? Yeah, if it's really fun. Okay. If you think it's just actually really fun to like maybe some people set up their well let's just say they get into bread making there's like I want to say it's like the best bread making they're just having fun with it then great. They can maximize your young people who get really into High Fidelity audio
Yeah, and they nerd out and they know it's stupid, usually, they're just like, I don't care. I want this thing with the gold plated cable connector, right? And I think if you have fun optimizing, mmm, then it's worth it. If maximizing, that is, if the process is fun to you. Hmm, I think that should be the barometer but I think that saying enough good enough is a superpower.
Yeah, they're really dig, I really agree with that.
You know what, as if such a good lesson to learn
Is it? Nobody cares? What you're not good at. Okay. Say more publicly. Hmm, people only just known for a few things that you're good at. Yeah. All those things that you're not good at nobody cares that you're not good at them.
So just let it go like, yeah, you know, now for the broader public, I think that's really useful, but you may have say a significant other cares about some of the things that you're not particularly good at there, is that?
Nothing. Yeah, not that. I'm recently single and thinking, and thinking about this all the time or anything, we
have spent many hours talking about sex while walking in the forest of New Zealand,
sex and relationships, and all even before this podcast dogs, as setting up all these cameras and all this stuff. And then he's like, I just need to take a quick shower and I was, like, wait a second. What about to have sex? What's happening? And how to shower?
Since yesterday,
feeling greasy. It does.
You're acting
right now. It's funny. I wasn't sure if you were going to say, so as you were saying yesterday, the forest about
sex. Oh no, no, no, no, we'll leave that aside for Scott. Outside of recording the unoptimized life. What effect has that had on you pay more attention to that leaving good enough alone because this is something I would like to do more of, and I've tried to focus with some success on
Making fast especially reversible or trivial decisions, right? If we can be undone easily. This is also with money, right, attention and money. I'm gonna default
to speed
with a lot of things, if it's not that important, or if it's pretty easy to reverse.
I think that's been helpful
off the top of my head. I think, how important it is to be
Done with something so that you can move on. Like I don't want open Loops. Yeah. Unresolved decisions. Sitting unresolved sitting undecided for a long time. Yep. I feel the weight of those unfinished projects. Hmm, because I'm trying to make it perfect. Yeah. Feel the weight of those? I've learned the importance of just getting things done and finishing and to do that. You usually have to say good enough, you know, some point. I love the fact that we say, we
We somebody releases an album, you release a book because there's a wonderful double meaning in that word, right? Like all right, I've never
even thought about that released. Yeah, I like that.
So I think about that with anything I post on my site and you my books. It's like right? It's released. It's good enough. Hmm. All right,
I'm going to combine. This may be another servers is MM, it's not really servers is MM, but in terms of how Professor servers operates in the world useful, not true. We've been talking about
Bit about this. I wanted to save a lot of it for this conversation with the mics. Where should we start with
this? Alright so again I'm going to dressing the audience for a second so you don't think I'm coming on the podcast. This isn't just one of our random conversations. Yeah this is really audience. There's a reason. We're hitting record is for them. Yeah, we can talk freely without hitting record so I had to think what's the most useful thing I could share with your audience that I've
And like in the last seven years, since we last spoke. But thing that's made biggest difference in my life, a superpower a big, huge change. So to me, it's been in short skepticism. So if you wonder why I'm so happy, why I'm thriving, why I seem to be doing? Well, to me, it's a lot of my happiness comes from this world view, that is radical doubt, it's skepticism. And so I'm going to give this the shorthand of calling it useful, not true, but the visual for it.
That moment, the end of The Matrix movie, when Neo realizes like those aren't bullets. This is just code number. All the bullets comes weight is like oh wait, right? Like none of these rules. Apply to me. Hmm, that's deep skepticism, it's empowering. It's liberating. So what I'm going to do for a few minutes, including a little stories is to play Morpheus to help emancipate the listeners. So, yes, I call this useful. Not true but, uh,
Yeah, there we go. Number one, so it. Okay, and it tell you the four bits first and we'll use that to kind of make sure that we come back to this. So, number one. Almost nothing is objectively, true? Number two, beliefs are placebos. So you got to believe whatever works for you. Now, number three rules and Norms. Are arbitrary games that can be changed. I'm preaching to the converted. No one. And number four, refuse ideology. You need to accept ideas individually. There is a structure. So number one, so almost nothing.
Is objectively true. So here's what's true. My hand is on the table but what's not true is it's good to do everything in moderation. Here's what's not. True family is everything. Here's what's not true. My mother abandoned me, here's what's not. True AI is the future. So all of these things people say them as if they're true or even with people making it, he's like, you know, I would be more successful if it weren't for my family, you know, where my location or whatever. People say these things as if they're in.
Indisputably true fact but to me the only thing that's true are the things that both a cat and an alien or the same and an octopus would agree on.
If I come up with so many children's books ideas and the scars agent, think that and they have the Elliott in the
octopus because it makes you realize that everything else is just mental interpretation, right? Like they re this is on the table, this is true.
But everything else, including what? It's just one. Am I flipping you off right now? Like, am I angry at you right now? I just
got some, just give me the middle finger. Yeah, yeah, sorry. This is I'm holding up my middle
finger with the back of my palm towards Tim. Even if people say things like I hate, you does it mean that they hate, you know? It just they said three words that's all that actually happened. Their mouth said these words. If you can't, everything else is an interpretation or a projection. So we have to consider
Why people are saying these things? If you start to think why they said something it helps to dispel it, you can say, oh you know what? They're probably just believing whatever supports the emotions that they want to feel right now. So if somebody has a belief that family is everything, maybe it's because they're that was it something they told their kids because they want their kids to take care of them when they're older. So they want their kids to believe the family's. Everything they have a self-serving reason to believe that.
Yeah, possibly subconscious,
right? Right, right. Oh, tell me.
So glad you said this, have you heard about the split rain stories? The people.
Yes. Okay. Why did you get up to have a glass of water that type of stuff? Can I tell it is? Yeah, so
this is so important to understand that these are crazy because they're so bananas, actually, it will start with the other one since you know that went
there wasn't enough but the audience doesn't
come on in and it will do both. But the during brain surgery, the patient needs to stay awake. And so there was a woman
insomnia or I guess.
Yeah, I don't know the details of this. It was on the econ, tuck podcast that during brain surgery. They were poking around in there and suddenly the woman started laughing, the patient started laughing and they asked her. Why are you laughing? And she said, oh well, it's just, it's really funny. The way that that curtain is hanging and she really thought that the reason she was laughing his because that's the way the curtain was hanging. It's but it was rapidly because they were
posting a million and car little rather than yeah. And
so the split brain patients are some people whose left and right.
Miss fears of the brain are not connected. So they've done tests on these people to say into their right ear. Please get up and open the window, and they'll get up and open the window. And then they'll ask their left here or maybe it's her eye. Why did you open the window? And they'll say, oh, it was just a, it was a little cold in here. I hope you don't mind, and they really sincerely to the core thought. That's the reason they opened the window. Yeah, they're a couple more examples of this, you know, a message shown 21i. They did something then they asked the other. I why did you do that? And every time,
The people make up a reason, they don't know, they're making it up. They give a reason why they did that and they feel completely confident that. That is the reason why they did it. Yeah. So to me, this is the most beautiful example. Like we actually don't know. So talk about deep skepticism, radical doubt, you shouldn't even believe anything. You tell yourself even in your private diary, when you're saying, I'm not happy in this location or I can't do this because of that, or I'm mad at so and so
So you need to ask yourself, okay? That might not be true just because I'm saying it, it might opportunity. So number two, beliefs are placebos. So, two people in the same boat, one can say this sucks. And another one can say, this is great. Hmm, but neither one is true, no beliefs are true. And in fact, you know, the little story of Richard Branson before there was Virgin Airlines, you've heard the tale that he was at a, an airport in the
flight to somewhere was canceled, Rose to lead. And yeah,
and everybody is grumbling
When God is sucks. And so, he kind of went to the 20 people. They were angry and said, hey, if I Charter a plane, will you guys split the cost? And I said, yeah. So everybody else was angry. He looked at the same situation and said, this is great. Mmm, that was kind of the launch of Virgin aeronaut launch. You know, mean
predecessor Genesis
Genesis nice word, so no beliefs are true. When we say, I believe,
It's an indicator that what we're about to say next is not true or
not evidence-based,
might not true. Sorry. I'm just I'm just, yeah, having fun have fun. Because, yeah, it's not evidence based because we don't say, I believe in potatoes.
Because speak for yourself.
We don't have a
potato. Yeah, we don't need to say it because the right is it exists. So I think that whenever we say I believe such it indicates that whatever we say next is not true. It's
kind of like when science is at the end of a field name generally, it's not science, not always but very often that's not the case. I can think of a few exceptions Neuroscience computer science but very often when science gets appended to something who it's like without doth protest too much, I
like that.
So since no beliefs are true, I think this is liberating to realize that you can just choose whatever belief works for you. Now then helps you be who you want to be. This is like this is about personal empowerment. It's a little bit hacking yourself. If a certain belief will help you be who you want to be right now, you don't need to keep believing it tomorrow. If you could believe it for three minutes or three days or you know the rest of your life, you're going to find what you look for. So if you choose to believe something you'll find
Evidence to support your belief. Mmm of anything. So the number three is that rules and Norms are arbitrary games. So this is the one where I can't help but think of, you know, you are introduction to the world in four hour, work week, giving so many wonderful examples of how you don't have to accept the world's Norms. Yep. For sure but it's funny how many times the rules of the world are stated as if they're absolutely true. Like all applicants must submit their application through the usual.
All channels and wait to hear from us or to be an expert in your field. You should have an advanced degree from a university, but someone made up these rules and most people follow those rules, but they're not true, they're just not absolutely to. So I think that realizing they're not true gives you an incredible Advantage. Hmm. Because you realize you can make up the rules. So this is that Matrix moment where the bullets are flying out and he goes, wait a minute, this is just code. Yeah, somebody made this up but
But I don't need to run this program but if you do that, people are going to be upset at you. So somebody's going to get mad at you and you have to know that even when they say you're a bad person for doing this.
You have to know that that's not true either. And I think it's story about that this
that I think begs a number of questions living in a broader Society about morally acceptable at were reprehensible right Behavior, right?
But that's when I talk about like being who you want to be,
We can't really address people who want to be Psychopaths or who want to be damaging. Yeah, because then anytime you taught anybody, how to do anything, how to fly a plane, he don't fight into the World Trade Centers. Okay. Yeah, I drive a car. He don't drive it into a crowd of people, okay. You have to just understand that we're talking about a tool not you know, your psychosis that might lead you to your guide person table that for a minute. So I have a funny little story that felt almost too risque
to tell love I love.
To escape. Let's do it. I don't require these in front of a crowd. Can always
edit. Oslo Norway. Hmm. My band was on tour and we were there for three nights and for the first two nights, there was this girl in the audience. It was kind of making eyes at me on stage. And so, the second night, I went to go talk to her and we hit it off and we hung out all night long and it was wonderful, but we didn't have sex. Hmm, that's when I was like, can I say this on the air? We did not consummate.
But we kind of regretted it. So then it was the third day and it was the day that I was leaving. And there's this big kind of Central Park in the middle of central Oslo and we're in the park and, you know, housekeeping came at 10 a.m. like dime to check out time to go. Nothing. And she was asking them in Norwegian, like please one more hour and they said, no get out. She's like, so we go out to this park and she's like, oh God, I wish I could be with you. I wish it. She's like, cod, I just still want to be with you.
And like damn me to was like I wish we could and then I looked around and this park is surrounded by like you know Sheraton Hilton Marriott and it was 11:00 in my fairy was leaving at 4:00 hmm. Oh and there's one detail. She was just in the process of breaking up with her fiancé a small detail. So this matters because I said hey what do you think about getting a hotel for a few hours? She's like, ah,
Well we could fly casual kind of naughty, doesn't it like yeah. But let's do it. Mmm. Yeah. Okay. You don't like she's like but I can't be seen with you. She said, just on the chance that a friend of mine walks by I can't be seen going into a hotel with some strange, man. I said, okay, so here's what I'll do. I'll go in the hotel all get a room.
And then I'll text you the room number and you come up a few minutes later, she said, okay good. So I went into the hood and whatever Hotel. It was all just say Sheraton and is like, welcome to the Sheraton Hotel, you know? And I said, hey, I'm here for one night I'd like a room and great. No problem. Okay. Tomorrow breakfast will be served over here and such and such and here's your room and and okay, he gives me my keys. So I go up to the room and I text her the room number, and she comes up. Five minutes later. So then we have fun for a few hours and it's great. But now it's 2:30 and it's time for me to go get my fairy.
So, this time we reverse it, I go down alone first, and I go to the guy at the front desk and I said, hey, I've decided to catch the fourth, clock fairies ago is everything. Okay. Was there any problem? I said, no, no problem at all. Everything's great. Just decided to catch an earlier fairies. So paying in full here it is. He's so he's charging my card. It's already done, he's doing the thing, but then he sees her walk by
And he goes, wait a minute. I don't like this one bit, so he remembers that he saw her come in 5 minutes after me. Now, she's leaving five minutes after me and he goes, this is not some stupid establishment. This is not. This is a various reputable Hotel. I do not like this. No, you must not do not, I don't like this one bit, he's getting really angry. Yeah, and I was so happy because not for the obvious but like it was
So liberating realizing that I've done. Nothing wrong. Hmm. Nobody was hurt. This is fully like consensual. He's, you know, they were paid for their room. Mmm. And even though he's angry, he can't get me in trouble. Like I haven't broken the law, and I think that we so often as kids, we spend so much of our life, the first half of our life and of deferring to Authority and thinking that Authority has power over us. And at a certain point, you realize that
Free. You're liberated from that as long as you don't break the law. Hmm. Even if people tell you you're a bad person that it's not true. They're just saying that because of their rules or whatever. So this to me was a major turning point in my life realizing that I was liberated from Authority and from judgment. So, a couple things. So the first
is
I read a piece recently. I think the author's name is Ava a VA. I don't know, her full name Book bear on sub stack and the headline the title of the be something like on not disappointing myself and it's a discussion of disappointing others. How disappointing others, but not disappointing yourself is important. I mean, that's the kind of upshot of it very well written introduced to me by a friend named Mike,
Thank you, Mike. So I'd recommend people take a look at that because I think it relates since you made mention of the fiance though. I want to stand in for some of the audience who will say, we'll wait a second. You said you didn't do anything wrong, but we live in a society we do follow rules. Otherwise we are with the animals. So what is good? What is bad is based on societal Norms? I'm sure there are people listening are like, well, wait a second, thank you have fun for a couple hours with someone who is still engaged. How would you respond to people who find that morally
repugnant
They had broken up, but we're still living together because she just hadn't got yet.
Okay. All right. Okay, third, I wouldn't see the somebody's wife. Okay, well, I got fiance. Okay. Got but no, I know what you mean that
it's but in those moments, you have to ask yourself. Do I agree with this rule? Mmm, especially if you travel the world. What's polite in Japan can be rude in New Zealand and vice versa. These different ideas of what is the right wrong thing to do are completely arbitrary and they change with geography and so
So you get to kind of pick and choose and you can choose to fit into the local Norms or sometimes you choose, not to, because you disagree with them, because the same with individuals and people. Yeah. You were liberated from others Norms. You can choose your own.
So, there's a lot of this that I agree with. I also wonder how we avoid, maybe we don't, but sinking into a moral relativism, where everything is okay on some level because nothing is objectively, good or bad.
Therefore General mutilation of like, 12 year old girls or whatever it is, is totally fine that culture because the culture is different there. I'm not going to object, anything like that. Yeah. Because I'm not the Arbiter of universal truth. Therefore, like everything is okay and different cultures different places, different households because everything is relative. How do you think about that? I defer to Sam Harris.
Okay. Did he ever talk about the more
A landscape on your
show. I don't think we've discussed it explicitly. So why don't you? If you wouldn't mind elaborating,
probably the best elaboration is to tell people to go search for Sam Harris, moral landscape, the best. Ted talk I've ever seen. That is the one Sam Harris. The moral landscape. So beautifully summarizes this idea of judging something morally objectively based on individual well-being. And so
utilitarianism, like, great,
Good for the greatest number of people type stuff. He said, yeah, I don't want to be I don't want to speak for think I'll go find that talk. This is a there's I think a tension sometimes, in my mind between
Living a self authored, unorthodox life that does not conform to Convention for the sake of conforming to Convention. While also trying to have some type of consistent moral compass. And that is why sometimes I'm actually very envious of people who are deeply religious, so you're the rules, right? I mean, you want to talk about Paradox of choice, like how much decision fatigue
Does that remove? I'm actually very envious of that sometimes. So how do you think about? I'm not saying you should think about. I'm just curious when let's just say outside of breaking the law, you can do anything right. There is a just like having 1,500 different types of toothpaste at the supermarket having to choose one. That's right. There is a possible decision. Fatigue there. Do you use for yourself? You can Define it yourself, but, like, good or bad, or some type of moral framework for helping to narrow the choices that you make.
Make available to yourself in secular societies. I think about I wonder about this whole
lot. Yeah, I recently read a book I can recommend if anybody called what everyone should know about Islam, okay. It was really good and it finally understand about the different Sharia laws and its really congruent, I think more than anything. If I had to pick one word to give, it's amazing how congruence it is and what piece that can bring in a society where even the
The government laws are aligned with the religious laws which are aligned like, everybody here agrees in this code. It's not a not a gray area, but you asked me the other day about, I said that I'm very influenced by the greater good doing things that even if it doesn't serve me personally or privately if it seems like it's the right thing to do I'll do what seems to be the right thing.
Yeah, yeah and this is just for people who
This came up very organically in our conversation, I don't write, how do you? Yes, I do remember because I think I was talking about how I do not identify as a philanthropist, even though I do a lot of nonprofit work because I actually have a pretty hobbesian view of human nature in general. And think we've probably was certainly on a planetary level cause more problems, and we've solved. And therefore, I don't fill like philosophy, right?
Like hydrophilic, like philic is to Love, Phil is something the, the etymology of that. And then the philanthropy is like the anthropocene or anthropology. It's human. So like to love humans, basically his philanthropy and I don't feel like I line with that. I'm actually in the sand, like misanthrope a lot of the time so I said, no, I don't think about that. And therefore, I make decisions about a b or c in the following way, when it relates to some of the nonprofit.
Work in scientific research that gets funded through. This is a foundation, my foundation. And that I think is what prompted you to say. I'm not sure if I think of myself as an altruist, but I seem to make decisions for the greater good which I've observed in you. I think that is the rewinding, the tape. I think that is sort of the stream of conversation that led to that coming up. I was asking about how you can sit.
Order constraining your choices with maybe a lens of morality and so you are going to
say well yeah for me personally, I guess I just we have this gut feeling of what feels right? It feels wrong or sometimes you actually let your head rule that decision. Yeah, to say. You know what? I know that personally, I might want such and such but I know that ultimately that's it's not that important or maybe the fact that I'm happy anyway.
Affects a lot of my decisions. Mmm. It's like, I don't need to write some million-dollar thing to make me happy. I'm already happy. Like, I've hit the maximum. There is no such thing as happier, I'm already there. So therefore this million dollars should just go to people who can use it because it's for the greater good like that. Yeah. How my brain honestly works. But this idea of isms ideologies and subscribing. Yeah you tapped into that that thing that we what did you call it? The decision fatigue. Yeah. It really helps decision fatigue.
To say, I'm all in on this. But I think that people do it to a fault where they read a self-help book and go. Oh, yeah. This is it. This is the answer. I'm following this now stoicism ever need something that declaring themselves to be
a stoic or religion or CrossFit or veganism.
Whatever. Right. The biggest fault. I think to
crypto for that matter. You were right
religion. Yeah. It's at
tribalism. And yeah, I think he's not good enough for everyone. I just try clear.
But
yeah, so something related to you happened to me on a plane years ago that I think is a good example of this that long long ago. He was two thousand eight or nine. I was on a plane from Amsterdam to the US, and I saw a guy reading 4-Hour workweek. I said, hey, great book and he goes, it's trash, man. And I said, really, I knew this guy's full of himself. This book is trash and
And I think about that all the time because
this is like so it was drawing guy or what. I think. I think I've ever had been over this before. Yeah.
It's like because he found one
thing that's like the fine Germans. I stood outside of the u.s. Germany and Korean career my
besties. But he found one thing he didn't like about you and therefore declared all 400 pages of this book to be trash, right? And I think that's the problem with isms, is it if you're trying to buy it
For another a system. That's all or nothing. And so if the leader of a movement, says something you don't like on social media. Well, now the bubbles popped, you know, it's a fly in my dish, it's a hair in the meal, it's a poo in the
pool. The
whole thing is ruined, drain the pool,
that's page 427 in your dr. Seuss right back to that kept yelling in the octopus. It's,
it's like the mindset that once everything to be a religion. Yeah, you know what, I think that's deeply built into.
Yeah, the reductionism. I mean, it's simplifies reality. Yeah.
Simplifies reality like
that mean, you do assume cognitive burden to take the harder
path. So on that note, back to my whole like useful, not true, my radical. What do they call it radical doubt for skepticism? Yes, I think we should be skeptical of every is mm. I think we should avoid isms avoid ideology and take ideas piecemeal which means ideally you should.
Be open to somebody. You don't like taking their good ideas from people, you don't like. And the people you do like admitting that some of the things they say, you're not going to adopt that. And when somebody does that, to me, that shows a stronger thinker, a clear thinker. Somebody who's looking at ideas individually. Instead of just saying, I'm all in on this, I am a such-and-such East. Yeah, I subscribed to this is mm. That to me, total of, yeah, yeah. Jumping to a conclusion it.
It's a punt, it's like, just deferring to the ism.
Yeah, yeah. This is very present for me in the US and we don't need to go into politics. But with respect to politics because I am asked frequently, right? Like are you a Democrat or Republican? Oh wait, I think you're a Libertarian. I'm like, I refuse to play that game if you want to talk to me about a specific issue.
Yes, let's talk about again if you cannot just make the case for your argument but like ideally I mean this is asking a lot but like Steel Man account argument just to prove to me, you're not in this type of shouting match. Okay. Then let's have a conversation but they soon as you apply and I think I'm borrowing from
Paul Graham on this of Y combinator fam. But the more labels you applied yourself. The stupider. You get. I think that's true. It's just like, the more you calcify
You're thinking end or just absolve yourself of thinking which is a luxury? Is that firing? Yeah it's deferring which is a luxury if you want to I think have a really if you want to be an outlier in terms of the impact you have the happiness. You can achieve. That is a luxury. You can't afford is absolving yourself thinking. Maybe it's a bell curve. Who knows maybe like, people who completely don't think in the people who think the most of the happiest to, they'll know nothing. A lot of it's probably out of the box.
Interviewer. Because there are I'm sure people listening or gonna be, like, wait a second. This guy can't be any happier. What kind of alien is this guy? How much of that do you think is out of the box? Just your code versus a
cultivated? Do you know Sonja lyubomirsky? No. Okay. You know who she is? Nope. Oh, she wrote one of those books on happiness. Okay, after I read stumbling on happiness, so I knew that was good. It was a good book and I went to go find other books on the subject. So, she wrote a couple books on
Happiness. She's been studying, happiness for decades
and so in your limbo scheme
burski, I think number say, um, I'll find it but in the show notes, shut up. Yeah. She said in one of her books, that her Studies have shown that most people's happiness is 50% DNA and out of the control and the other 50% is in their control. So, the best we can do is just control that 50% and so, yeah. I
think it's like, you're a stark closets. Oh yeah. Yeah. - the - the ism. Yeah. Right. But
did I ever tell you about that? That you even talked about?
Racism a bit, not like ancient crab. And then finally in 2010, I read a guide to the good life.
They are no William Irving. I think I read it
went. Oh my God, I thought this was just me like this is the everything he's talking about. This is the way I've been thinking, since I was a teenager, I don't know why I picked it up. Maybe I suspect, I found out years later that the Dale Carnegie book called How to stop worrying and start living,
you know, I just
As a side note. So I've read that book multiple times. I just went into my Kindle recently, to look at my Kindle library, mostly to see like, whether it was 70 or 80% of the download books that I hadn't read and I came across that book and I thought you know what, this would be a good time to revisit this, they're very overlapping. I just
read a couple years ago in Wikipedia or something. That that book was basically spouting stoic values, makes
perfect sense. It's a went great book by the way.
He had to stop worrying and start living by Dale
Carnegie and it was on my grandmother's bookshelf and I read it when I was like 16. And so here, I was thinking that up until two years ago I would have said, or I did say all the things that stoicism says I've believed these things. Since I was a teenager I thought I made these things up. I thought this was just me being weird. Well this is my approach to life but then just two years ago I saw that Wikipedia entry about got
intercepted by Dale Carnegie. Oh wow, Inception. Yeah like, wow,
so
The point is I've been thinking that way since I was a teenager, it wasn't till the age of 40 that I read an actual book on, still has his 100. This is really like, this is how I think, but that being said, it's healthier to watch out for whenever you find yourself, wanting to jump ball in to an ism, even if it's just a book that you just read. Yep. And if you find yourself, blindly kind of saying, all of this, this is me. This is how I'm going to live now,
unless you have the list, call it self awareness, or meta awareness to say,
Okay, I'll try all this stuff on for size. This is like me putting on a suit,
right? Right.
To see what happens, but not like, this is the truth in all caps. This is who I
am identity. That's totally different. See that's pluralism versus monism. Like The Monuments to say monism, is this, it's mystical. The number one is somewhat like magical mystical. You know, one love one world. One answer was
One way, it's very appealing. This idea of one. Mmm. And it's very upsetting to think that no. No. There there are many and used to make inflict. And you can believe conflicting things at the same time. Sorry I accidentally skipped answering your question about was it neither am I this happier? Why am I this happier? Why do I think I'm this happy?
Yeah, so this is researcher who wrote the book after stumbling on happiness said 50/50 and then I paid. I dragged Us in this ptosis and
so that's oh no. I think I got the lucky roll of the dice that
I need ice but also there's another thing I've been doing since I was a teenager that I found out has another name too. So for my whole life, I very often open my diary and just put everything into their, I write what happened today but also like the things that I'm thinking, and whenever I come upon a belief that to me feels like a disempowering beliefs, something that I was in your unbelief. Yeah, my own something. I've said it sounds disempowering to me like
I hate it here. I can't do what I want here. I need to go somewhere else to do what I want. I'll just keep it General like that. Then I'll stop and ask myself, like, wait a minute is that true like that sounds like a disempowering beliefs. Let me push back on that. I think that belief might be holding me back. So I'm constantly doubting everything. I write doubting everything. I think doubting everything I
say and you do this in writing.
Yeah I do this with my fingers just fly and I know, you know, so later I found out that this is similar to cognitive behavioral therapy. So I've been doing this for decades.
It's a now I just found out what it's called. So I just recently read a book of cognitive behavioral therapy went. Well, it sounds like what I've been
doing also in the all roads lead to Rome type of metaphor CBT, scientists and it largely based on many stoic writings.
All right. Right. That makes sense. Yeah. So I recommend and it's kind of the conclusion of the Big Arc, I was on the whole like useful. Not true. Super skepticism thing is you asked me?
Last week. How do you change your beliefs? Like if you say this is the belief I'm holding. This is the belief. I'd like to be holding
right-handed. Like, how would you recommend somebody do that, or how do you do it? Yeah. How do you translate that into durable behavioral change, right? Because it's one thing to intellectually recognize. This is a disempowering, believe it would be much better for me. To hold this other belief. It's one thing to achieve that and quite a different thing to implement that ladder belief in a way that changes
Your behavior. So I think the stack up evidence of first you can just writing in my diary about, I think. I need to believe this. I think I need to believe that the place I'm in right now is a good place to be, not a bad place to be. I think that would be a more empowering belief for me that I can use where I am to do. What I want, not need to escape where I am for example. So then I need to just Stack Up evidence of this. So it's like once you've decided on the belief that would be better for you to hold, you can always find evidence to support any belief.
Right? So you could just kind of stack of evidence and then I find, you know, we're social beings so talking with friends about it and asking their thoughts on this or telling them, like, I'm starting to think this and then friends, if they care about you and they support, you will often give you other evidence to support the belief. You want to have saying, you know, that's a good point. My friends Tracy such as this and she had this episode. Yeah, I think you're right on with this new idea of yours. So friends support it. And then you start to internalize it more and maybe it takes a few days and you take some baby steps to put it into action.
Or a big giant leap to put this into action. Like, you know, some crazy things I've done in my life to and do cut off some options in my life. As a giant leap, we can talk about that if you want, but small actions are big actions. You can take the action before necessarily internalizing.
It totally going to fake it before. You make it, fake it before you make it. Yes. Even if you do it, like do it before you believe it. I think act as if I
should sign up for college and just like you're at, it should. Oh my God, I just did.
Maybe even before you've convinced yourself you can like sign up that little form and take that first step to yeah take that. So I think I've done a lot of things like that in my life were to support a new belief. I will take an action first and then we all have a desire to be congruent with the actions we've taken. So it's like, oh look I'm this kind of person now. This is my belief. Now
for folks listening, who may want, who would find it helpful to have a structured way to cross examine their own beliefs, and maybe take an opposing stance and then gather evidence.
So there's something called the work by Byron. Katie. Oh yeah. Which is very much this and I found personally, very useful, super, super useful. You tease didn't really tease. You weren't sure whether to open the door, not giant leaps. So with the understanding that what you do is not necessarily what you recommend for all people, is there, an example of a giant leap to make for a story is there.
Yeah, I I renounced my u.s. citizenship in 2011's, big one, as a way of I deliberately burned the ships. Yeah. So I have to explain this metaphor because I found that most people haven't heard this tale. We have all heard of burning the bridges. So you burn the bridge, when you destroy a friendship, a connection with somebody, the bridge between you and another person to burn, the ships is a reference to something like a Spanish conquistador that
It had off with it, three ships to South America somewhere and when he landed, there were thousands of Aztecs waiting to kill them and they only had a few hundred men, of course. I'm messing up the details here, but he turned to one of his men and said we must not Retreat. Burn the ships, the men need to know that we cannot go back, we must go forward. So I wanted to challenge myself to go forward and not go back. Mmm. And after 40 years in America, I felt like all right. I spent the first 40 years of my life here.
I want to spend the next 40 out, but what I found is, whenever things got tough, I kept wanting to retreat back to my comfortable, California, so I thought I need to burn the ships. So I did
laughing is there's so many rabbit holes. We could go down here. I'm going to use my, my creative license, as I was this podcast to avoid most of them, but are you glad you did that
for years? It was my one of my biggest mistakes in
life made of
to visit family and friends in the US for.
Yeah I highly recommend when everybody asks me about it some people have found out about this. Hmm, um no no
Hansel Hansel moral no talking
so when people would ask me about it, my advice was always, do not do it. In fact it still is somebody who's asked me last week. I was like do not do it, Kevin Kelly had this wonderful saying the best option is the option that gives you the most options. Yep, I love that.
And under that wise advice, I think that no, you should not renounce your US citizenship because it's cutting off options. A lot of people seem to want to do it for tax reasons, and even that has you need to look through that thoroughly. I did not do it for tax reasons. In fact, my taxes went up after I renounced because most of my income is still u.s. source. So now that all gets taxed at a flat 30% rate, instead of before it was like part of a bigger picture, huh? So yeah, my taxes went up.
And it reduced the option. So there was something scary that happened. Just a few months after I renounce, my citizenship, my ex her dad was, like, on his deathbed and we needed to quickly get on a plane that night, but I didn't have a Visa. So I went to the US Embassy to get a Visa quickly and they rejected me and I was devastated because they just hand you. A slip saying know you've been denied for Visa next, you know? Yeah. And the slip says you may not reapply this decision is final and hey useful not true I challenge that
That rule is like I think somebody just made that up. I'm going to go back and replay anyway. So I went back with a mountain of evidence and luckily they granted me a
Visa mountain of evidence for what I
was living in Singapore at the time and it was actually my good friend from Bangladesh that said, Derek, this is your first time being refused, she's like, I've been refused like five times. Look, here's how to do it. You can't just go to the Embassy and say, give me a Visa, please. You have to show a mountain of evidence that your life is in Singapore that you have tell them about your cat, that you have a job that you have this, that you're on the board at this company that you're speaking at.
At, you know, the National University of Singapore, show them your two-year rental. You're not a
Flight Risk, right? Not a
Flight Risk. So I went back with a mountain of evidence and a letter, from the doctor, from my ex's. Dad saying, you know, please, he only has a few days to live. Please allow them to come back. So I was granted a Visa but it was scary as hell. And so I think that people are often overconfident thinking like, yeah, I'll just renounce my citizenship and it'll lower my taxes. I can go back anytime I want, but not true. Yeah, I always say like no, no once once you renounce, you might
Never be allowed in that country ever again. That is not your country anymore so I do not recommend it.
Yeah, I would say in general not to pay too broad a brush but us
Frowns upon people who were announced yet
citizenship. Yeah, I'm always aware that I'm in. A lot of ways be
allowed back in ever again. Yeah. Okay. What is another example of a giant leap? Anything come to mind, and that's a huge one for sure. Moving, was it worth it for you? So you said, I wouldn't recommend this to most people, and I know we live looking forward and not behind, we can't change the past as far as we
know now,
Now, 13 years later. 12 years later, since doing it it did come in a little handy in covid X where
I will skip some family drama details, but there was a big, big pressure on me to move to America.
And I was able to just kind of say, no can't do it. And so, finally, after 12 years, it came in
handy for
that. But no to me that was, it was a huge thing
and the other giant leaps,
and leaps selling my company came in, like an instant Moment of clarity of like, God, life is weird when it's like, you can hold multiple philosophies in your head.
And I'm like this is sorry. This is the whole thing I was talking about with useful not true as these no beliefs are true. So you can hold them all in your head and just kind of
Look at them. Like well here's one belief that says you should stick it out when the going gets tough. You need to stay in there and such and such. And yeah, I think that there's another belief that says.
The rewards to effort ratio is off that I'm spending so much effort and getting so little reward that you should stop. Another philosophy says, you can just hold these in your head and look at them as it's past. You could go down as philosophies you could follow.
And then ultimately, you just pick one or you craft one from a hodgepodge of piecemeal from the other bits. And so, in that moment, I was feeling really frustrated with a company. Had been doing it for 10 years. I was feeling done, like somebody who's been painting a mural for many years or writing a novel for many years. And just you put the last brush stroke on your right? The last word and you go. Yeah, I think I'm done. That's how I was feeling. But somebody could have argued like, okay, go take a vacation and come back and get back to work, but I played off some different ways.
Thinking about it. And in that moment, while driving down Pico Boulevard in LA while on the phone with a friend was like, that's it, dude, I think I'm done. I'm just going to sell the company and I like decided in that moment and it wasn't fully congruent, and it was just one of many options. But that night, I went and called three companies that had been asking to buy mine. And I told
him, yes. Was there a feeling or a meal or
Something, your friends said that triggered that he just
asked me a bunch of questions, like he challenged, the things I was saying he could basically did the cognitive behavioral therapy with me. He was pushing back on everything. I was saying challenging it. So for example, I said I'm sick of having all this responsibility. I don't want to have to do this and have to do that missed. You don't have to do anything. I said, yeah, I have to pay my taxes. He said, no, you don't? Yes, I do. You have to be your taxi said, no, Derek, you need to understand this, you don't have to do anything. What's they do Don power of
Now that went sat on a park bench or who wrote
Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle, Eckhart Tolle. Yeah, I never read the book but um, for good things about
it, I unfortunately, tried to listen to it on a long drive and don't do that. It's hazardous to. He's got a very soothing voice but he starts out the story saying that at one point, he just went to go lay on a park bench and basically just sat there for a couple years doing nothing. And it's a reminder that you don't have to do anything that everything is a choice, that even paying your taxes, you don't have to there will be consequences consequences if you don't. But let's
Please be clear that you're choosing to do that. You're choosing to pay your taxes because you'd rather not have the consequences. You're choosing to pay your employees, your choosing to go into work. None of these things are things you have to do. He pushed back on that a few times. And ultimately, my value system is such that I most value personal growth and it felt to me like, I've been doing this thing for 10 years. The bigger learning growing opportunity for me right now is to do something else. Mmm, it wasn't a matter of up or down. It was just
Just different. Yeah,
so let's segue from personal growth to mentors. Has many people have had mentors, many people seek mentors. And if you will pine after mentors, and if they could only get a hold of person X and have a cup of tea or coffee, pick the brand pick up, pick the brain. Some of healing have a
meal. Who would not want to have their brain
picked? Yep. So how would you suggest people?
Ball ask mentors for help. Here's what I do. I
have three mentors. So anytime I had a little dilemma in my life. I write a really good description of my dilemma before I reach out to them because I don't want to waste their time, right, right. Mentors are VIPs, I don't want to waste a minute there time. So first I read really description the problem and then I summarize it, I summarize the context, the problem I summarize my options and I summarize my thoughts because I got to make this succinct, I don't want to send somebody a 20-page.
Along a male. So I have to make this as succinct as
possible. What does that in practice? Look like a, how have Paige Paige you have
paid? Like, it's like bullet points for everything instead of paragraphs, right? As succinct as I can, and then before I send it to them, I try to predict what this person would
say. So each of those three, right? Right?
Would anybody would say this? But yeah, it what my what this Mentor would say with that, Mentor would say, I know the way this guy thinks I've read all his books and other way and we've talked a lot I know what he would say. So then I internalized
At. And I addressed those points that I'm predicting they would say I'm going to address those in advance again to not waste their
time. And when you say, dress them, what do you mean by that?
Kind of like how you asked? I said something five minutes ago. When you asked me a question, like, can you give me an example of that or how do you know this? So it's like, okay, I knew you were going to ask that and so here's my follow right up. Um, so I'll address those in advance again, so as not to waste their time. And then again, one last time I tried to predict, okay, well, now that I could write you out, you have an
answer ready for whatever they might.
I'm back with,
but I include it in the initial, right? Summary of the situation. And then after I've done that whole process, I don't need to bother me anymore, because the answer is now clear, because I've just done the work. Yeah, of summarizing everything and imagining what they would say. So the truth is, I haven't talked to my mentors in years and one of them doesn't even know I exist. These are my mentors. And so this is how I think, it's kind of like what's his name?
And Napoleon Hill talked about the Mastermind or whatever. Like, you know, it's like, you know, imagine Abraham Lincoln is there when Abraham Lincoln said, totally. So, I think that you're right. I also get a lot of emails from people saying, like, I need a mentor. Will you Mentor me? How do I find a mentor? And this is my answer. Like, it's all in your head. It's about the summarization of your situation thinking. If it from another person's point of view, You can predict with this person would say, if you're a fan of their books and their podcasts in their talks, you know what they would probably say? So, do it yourself.
Who is if you're willing to share the person who doesn't know you
exist?
It was Talan. I just emailed him two weeks ago to say thank you first for your years of service. Uh-huh, he's continued inspiration. And exactly like a tiny little. Thanks. Seth Godin is one. He knows I exist. We don't talk that often but I very often think like what would Seth Godin says
he walks. The walk is another example of someone who walks the walk very much.
So.
Not as common as you would hope. Yeah.
That's it is the third actually changing.
No. No right now Keith Richards
you are
you know that's really
useful Nicodemus have a
fictional a fictional person. Can be your Mentor. Yeah you know like what would you know what would Jesus do? Yeah like people still do that. Like okay I'm not sure what to do. What would Jesus do? That's a perfectly. Good Mentor. Yeah
and I think a lot of people would agree with you and
For those people who might wonder, I actually do something very similar. Okay, can you tell? Yeah, absolutely. So I have I try to spend time with people, I admire and aspire to be more like in some capacity, right? Because I do think you'd become the people you spend the most time with. So to bring up a name that we've already brought up. I think actually a lot about Matt Mullenix, he's very calm in, almost all circumstances, not all I know what the handful of things bother him, but
He's very very calm and measured
and
good at perspectival knowledge, taking alternative positions, taking the counter position on his own. His own thoughts is own opinions, its own goals. So I often think when I get dysregulated or upset about something I'm getting wound up my what would Matt
do this? What would Matt say to me if
not wearing my shoes? What would met do? And I've also
Also done that in writing exercises, where I actually just sit down with my older self. Oh wow, who has figured it out? So if I'm talking to a version of myself, who's 10 years older, 20 years older who has figured this out, what might that older wiser version of me say and I just write out the dialogue.
And by then I'm like
okay doesn't
always give you some magic solution but it is stunning how often that will give you some type of clarity or maybe relief that helps you to cling less strongly to whatever the challenge or problem. Or question was that you had in mind? It's really, it's really remarkable. I do something very similar. Yeah. So this is what I'm saying.
Sometimes even
Just asking I get emails about once a week where somebody asks me a big question by email and then at the end they say, actually you don't even really have to answer this. Just honestly asking you the question helped me get some clarity. Thank you totally. Like just the active opening, their email client and starting with you and going, okay, I want to ask Derek severs this thing. Yeah.
Even if I intend to reach out to a mentor about something, I still go through the exercise of trying to crystallize my thinking so I don't waste their time.
Even if it's a really close friend like, I don't know if I don't want to be lazy and I don't want to ask them something that could be resolved with five minutes of Googling or five minutes of introspection. It's like whenever I go to anyone, I want you all to say. Basically here's the situation here are some of my assumptions. Here's what I've already tried, hmm.
I've tried ABCD and E and I'm not quite figuring it out and then followed by a super specific question. But the asking the mentors around, you are imaginary table and doing that homework. I think it's something that I do and I recommend to everyone and there is some selfish motive here, like I would like to have fewer than several thousand emails. They could come in with. Like, I think, how can I launched my book? Please tell me.
And I'll admit I actually got oddly shy, two minutes ago. When you asked me, who the third one was because actually, it's been you in the past. No. Yeah. And I didn't want to bother you with things. So I'm just like, I was tempting. You know, I've got your phone number. I could have just texted you and and I'm like, no, hold on and I'll just do it for something. Never
mind. Well, thank you for, you know. I think about you. I think about you Matt. It's funny. You mentioned Seth because Seth would be on a short list for me as well.
People who really think and more than think it's question. Yeah the musts. The
shoulds, the have-to's.
Like wait a fucking second that's nonsense, you know. I feel like you're very good at that. Which is part of the reason I've read your first books myself. Now, I'm all
shy.
I feel like we should do two things. Okay. I feel like we should get a slight refill on the
Scotch and then maybe talk about games, the games, we play. Alright, getting good at games things of this time. So little a little bathroom and then Scotch break.
That's
cool. I'm for people wandering. We just came back from our bathroom / break /, Scotch refill.
This is I would
say very similar to a lot of our conversations like it's not that different from a lot of our conversations but I do appreciate how much thought you give to deliverables for the audience makes big fucking difference. Honestly,
the greater good thing I think about
Making it interesting conversation for you. But then there's like, how many people that listen? So, it's like and try to. Yeah, you're
good at holding both looking at you but I'm thinking of them. No offense. Wow, we could we get on back that for a while you and your euphemisms. All right. Dark mirror here we come.
Cheers man. Cheers, but I'm super. Thanks again. Matt might we think Max
there. That's got the mud. Mats, got the fuzzy.
Hat on otherwise known as the boom mic. So we're all playing games and I think it's a matter of knowing which games you playing outside of some Basics. You got shelter, you got food and you cover, some of the lower rungs of Maslow's hierarchy of needs beyond that, we're all playing different games. So knowing which games you're playing, then choosing the game, you want to play. These are important. Why don't I just hand the mic over and let you let you talk about how you think about the scouting.
Saying games, maybe not the property up, but I'm going to go now
that it's something that might seem strange about me. That sometimes people say that I seem weird because of the choices I make in
life, you're a pretty weird things fairness, that kind of, man. But
I try to explain that it's just because
For 10 years or 15 years. I was playing a certain game. I was trying to be successful. I wanted to be famous. I wanted to be a successful musician. I wanted to be rich in that way, and I did it. And in my mind by my own standards, I won the game. Hmm. And
When you win the game, say you're playing Settlers of Catan or Monopoly or poker, whatever with friends when you win the game. What do you usually do with you? You stop playing you say okay let's go do something else. I won the game even with say addictive video games. So have you ever played stardew Valley know? I probably
shouldn't sit Dora bleep,
addictive. So my ex grew up on a farm and started Valley is one of those little farming games. Are you tend to your crops and then you get animals and
You get money
by selling your crops. I think this story behind this game is also very
interesting made by one guy with a passion for many years. I believe
there's a lot of additional context to that, that we don't have to unpack now, but people can look into it. It says, fascinating back strike. But yeah, don't play it because it's digital heroin.
Yeah, I mean it's so good. Yeah, I mean okay let's say if you want to play a great game. Yeah that is also non greedy. I found it because it was recommended on a list of like no bullshit games that don't ask you for more money once you're in. Yeah. You just pay your
Something like that up front and then you've got the game forever. So that's cool. That's cool. Let's say actually, if you are looking for a new game it is a great game. Stardew Valley is wonderful, mmm. But it's so wonderful that my ex and I got really into it, she played it for something like 4:00 or something like that. The little clock shows you, how long he played and to certain point she had done everything. She made every dish planted, every crop caught every fish, done, every favor, for every villager, whatever.
She was done. But yet, there was this yearning to keep playing because she was so good at it. Yeah. And I think that the temptation to keep playing, even though the rewards are done, isn't that the definition of addiction? Hmm. And so, yeah, it's continuing a behavior even though it's not rewarding you anymore. So to me, that's what making money is. It's a game that I've decided to stop playing because I got enough but this could apply to anything. Somebody who
I wanted to be a successful musician. Oh, there's a great Gautier Gautier. I think that's how you pronounce it. You didn't have to cut me out, you know, you just somebody that I used to know. Okay, one-hit wonder Gautier from Australia that was his stage name and he did a beautiful thing. As he has retired, that stage name is like they're did it. I had a massive number one hit. I don't want to keep singing that song for the rest of my
My life, there is no more Gautier. So now he's just back to his legal name and he's the drummer and singer in a band called the basics and he retired Gautier, he stepped away, just send her our turn. The most recent prime minister of New Zealand after six years felt that she had had enough and she quit instead of going through the process of running for re-election. She quit kind of midterm and she said, that's enough. I'm feeling full feeling, spent Serena Williams. I think, you know, quit instead of going longer than she should have.
Quit after at the 27 years and like that was enough. She hid her point was enough Cameron Diaz. I suddenly after watching There's Something About Mary, mmm, with my kid. I said I wonder whatever happened to her and I looked up and saw that she was the fifth highest grossing actress in America. The highest-paid Hollywood actress over 40 and then she'd had enough and so she just quit to do other things. I should interview her.
Yeah, I love those stories. I mean, she probably not say yes, but I mean those stories are fascinating. Yeah yeah. Because people are just like, yep.
Yep. Goodbye because there's something
else really admirable about the personal challenge of making yourself. Do something else that most of us stay in the game for too long. So I really admired that just end our turn. Did that one politicians are known for trying to hold on to power as long as they can write until their forcibly removed and Kicking and Screaming. Yeah, I really admire that she did that. I was super, super influenced by Felix. Dennis has book called How to get
rich.
Which I just have to say it's definitely not suitable for family. Listening, but the audiobook is exceptional. Thanks Roy McMillan, who is the narrator? And I know that because I looked it up because I was so impressed by the narrator, but just listen. Anyway, I just want to second that
suitable. Well, I mean,
look, you have a very particular different orientation on these things but most parents probably don't want to listen to an audiobook. That's like, yeah. And then
Spent all the money on coke and Whores. Okay. That's
what you think.
That's so wonderful that he admitted that. It's funny for that reason, right? Because he's so candid. Yeah, in a way that you would not normally find in most books like this. So, yes, and Unapologetic. On other things, the whole thing is refreshingly unusual. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I love that
book. Okay. So I interrupted know, it's great and I read that at a key time is right about the time that we met like 2008. I was just selling CD Baby.
And I was suddenly you know coming into more money than I could ever spend in a lifetime. And just about that time, I read Felix, Dennis his book, how to get rich and in it. He had this quote that I got ready for our conversation here. He said, if I had my time again, knowing what I know today, I would dedicate myself to making just enough to live comfortably, as quickly as I could. By the time I was 35, I would then cash out and retire to write poetry and plant trees. So I read that.
Key fork in the road moment for me where I just sold cdbaby at a ton of money. It's like what to do now. And I read this book from this, Filthy Rich old, man being entirely honest. And I thought I should just learn from his experience. Yeah. And so I took his lesson to heart and I said, right Felix, Dennis said if he could do it all again, he would just retire and write poetry and plant trees and haven't planted any trees yet, but it's kind of what I'm doing. So if what I'm doing,
He seems weird just because I took his advice to heart and I've kind of quit again. So I think the here's how we can summarize it is to say that most people I think.
Go by the inner compass that says I'm really good at this game so I should keep playing. But I think we should all entertain the idea. We could say I'm really good at this game so I should stop playing
hmm. I'm excited to dig into this because there's so many facets that I want to hear your thoughts on. So first, I want to pick up on something that I did not know, although I guess looking at your history makes some strange sense but wanting to be famous.
Miss you mentioned. You strike me as someone and I mean, this in a very neutral way and this is also why I asked you the other day at lunch. I was like, what makes you emotional? You strike me as a very thoughtful, but in some ways unemotional person, wow, not in a bad way, you don't have volatile emotions. You don't have strong displays of emotion and that could be a misread. I admire that about you, by the way.
Just the general least from the outside. Maybe it's like the duck on the pond, right commonly on the top and like, kicking like hell underneath. I don't know. But you have a thoughtful, almost Serene, contentedness, almost all the time that I interact with you. That is my perception. That's true. And that's remarkable. And you seem to have a very, very, very low need for external validation. That's my perception. Yes.
True. So that makes it odd or for me to hear you say. I want to be famous to Mike. What do you get out of Fame if that's your Constitution like it's a foam
really? Okay. So we won't let that go but check this out you and I have thought for hundreds or thousands of hours about the concept of success. Yeah. What it means to be successful.
I'm 53 now. I have spent almost 40 years or let's say like, you know, 35 years thinking about being successful, just a few weeks ago in a podcast interview, somebody asked me what's your definition of success. I said, to me, it's just achieving what you set out to do. That's your personal success for that thing. I think it's very individual and he said, nothing to do with what other people think of you. When I went other people, things like know what and he goes, yeah, I think
For a lot of people, they would Define their Success Through The Eyes of others. Like why I would anybody. And he said, wait, you seriously? I've never considered that. I like, wow, it's barking up the wrong
tree. He's got the wrong guy. 35 years, I had
never, ever, ever for a single millisecond considered success as something. That would be seen through someone else's eyes. To me, success is always been
Hyper personal. Yes, how does Fame fit into the? I think a little bit, like the things that you talked about being competitive like, your personal tendency. Sure. I think as a teenager,
I was like I want to get famous not like as famous as prince prince was like a musical role model for me. He was my musical. Incredible musician. Yeah, I didn't want to be that famous but like I don't know Brian Eno. Hmm. That's a good Fame role model where it's not like he'd get hounded walking down the
street and that was driven by a competitive Drive.
I was just like, let's see if I can do it. Okay, you know, just with that Spirit of like
I think I can do that. I want to try doing that and it was also feeling that what I was doing, musically was valid and worth hearing. And so a way for people to hear it is, didn't
someone was asking me recently? Those describing how excited I was to see you. We haven't hung out in so long. It's been so fun to
crazy
because we also interact virtually. So I was just grabbing someone.
That I was excited to see you and they asked what made you interesting or? I don't think they said unusual. Psychoanalysts, what do you like? What's so interesting about him? And I said, well, part of what's interesting is
I don't think I've met anyone who has the combination outside of you,
who has the combination
of seemingly. No, need for external
validation yet
being a good performer.
Mmm,
right. Like you are, you're a ringleader in a circus musician. You're really good at imitation, voices cetera.
You enjoy, you seem to enjoy performing almost everyone and I do mean almost everyone. And I'm only saying almost because it seems to absolutist to say everyone, but it might be. Everyone who I know
Foo is a
really good performer, it could be comedy, it could be acting. It could be fill in the blank.
Had that drive to become excellent. Doing that because they loved or needed or both external validation. I think it's a very uncommon combination which is why I was asking you about it.
Maybe it is because I just had that life shift where it's like I did it to certain point. I didn't get as famous as I thought I could but I was successful enough like I bought my house in Woodstock with the money I made touring, you know, like, by my own definition.
I was a pretty successful musician. Mmm. And then just at the time that that was getting boring. I accidentally started CD Baby and I just threw all my attention into serving these ish ins. So I think that's flip something in my head where it's like I no longer need the attention for me. I don't need any more attention. I don't need any more validation and now I don't even need any more money, I don't really don't need anything from anybody, but yeah, you're right. I still am socially
skilled. I know how to get on stage and talk ja good at it, really?
I doubt it, your combination of all of it said I don't usually see together. It's very rare, am I? Blushing, you're blushing. Could be the scotch. All right. So the next question that comes to mind for me is whether you've always been a satisficer to harken back to the Paradox of choice terminology from Barry Schwartz. Or if you've ever been a maximizer in the reason I ask is because
framing
Games in the way you have which is once you're good at a game and you win. It's only natural. You'd stop playing that game is to me. These are going to stick with the spirit, the essence of a satisficer. There are people however who let's just say they want to be a Grandmaster interests like this is my name. I win. That is a win on the road of additional wins and Mastery to strive to become the best in the world or
Another option which is someone who has played a
game for so long, let's just
say it's finances, they finally win in quotation marks, they no longer need to work to meet their needs, but they have played one game for so long. They don't know what other game to play and that Paradox of choice and anxiety leads them to continue playing the same game. I know so many examples of people who
Have one, they've won the Oscar, they've made a gajillion dollars done whatever they don't have the same love, perhaps they once did for that game. But they continue to play it because subconsciously or consciously the do not know what else to do. So I know this is a hodgepodge of question but it leads back to I guess the first which is have you always been a satisficer? Oh
wow. Okay the sub questions, we are
reversing back to the yeah. This is a whole, okay? So the series footage
Raptor one. And in fact, if you don't mind, I'm going, I think I might end up, Stewart, Mills, learning, whatever. What are they? So the third category of people that don't know what else I can do, that's the category that by my values. I want to like physically, pick them up and put them into a different scenario. I think it's just objectively. You need to change now, you need to Shake It Up in order to live a full life. Yeah. You need to see the world from different perspectives. You've been doing the same thing for too long. Mmm. That to me talk about like beliefs and you.
Yeah, that's a belief of mine which means it's not true, but I believe that you should just
because it's not true, doesn't mean it isn't valuable, right? It's useful or I should put a different just because it can't be proven as true doesn't mean it isn't valuable. I know we're going to get into some semantic Rat Hole here, so it gives
those people I think. Absolutely should somebody needs to shake them out of there. Kick them out of the nest, shake them out of their habits. Go to something else. I feel the only
Celebrity Death that upset. Me was Kurt Cobain, hmm. All the others seemed to be like, okay, they've made their contribution to culture and I appreciate them but like I wasn't eagerly awaiting George Harrison's next album, you know? But Kurt Cobain fuck. It felt like he had so much more to give, but he was miserable.
And some like that maybe not to that extreme but let's just use that as the the farthest end of spectrum on this kind of person that says they're miserable doing this thing, but they feel like it's all they can do those people. I just want to like physically, restrain them and pick them up and put them into another environment that to show them. You can do something else, the bigger World.
They are like, you're good enough, go to an ashram. For two years, you can always come back and be
fine, but just imagine the joy of that sometimes even. It's a simple manual labor. What it was at the end of the movie. The Last Emperor.
This guy's been through this big giant Arc and at the very end of the movie, he's just, you know, picking weeds in the garden because he used to be the emperor but they Chinese Revolution. Whatever assigned him to just be a gardener now and he kind of found his peace with it and know we all have different versions of that we could do for the most part. For the last 12 years, I've just been a full-time Dad here in New Zealand and I know there are other impressive things I could have done but this meant the most to me
what really drove that home for me is
Is my enthusiastic student of history and I read for instance guess it's jenga's comma. Who really knows? I don't speak whatever kolyan or whatever Live Language would have been Jing is caught in the making of the modern world good-looking. Yeah, really good. Especially the first half or so is really exceptional but I realized because they mention Alexander in the grain that book and I realized
Alexander.
It's kind of like Madonna. Scott one name. I don't know that. Dudes, last name. Do you like I've pulled audience? There's not a single person has ever raised their hand. I'm like, okay, this is ostensibly the greatest if was certainly one of the greatest, but let's just say the greatest conqueror of the world's ever known, given the constraints and Technology at the time, can't even name is full name this, so just like that impressive. I don't know, I've just become less and less kind of concerned with that.
Okay, wait, there was some sub questions in that
last line I can rewind
Which
by the way, is totally develop skill. That's not something this is after doing a lot of
podcasts. I just noticed from, are walking down the street or walking through a forest and talking. You would pick up on a few words that I said in passing two days later, you're like, let me ask you some more questions about that. I like, what, how the fuck did you remember
that? Yeah. Totally trained. Yeah. Yeah. Which is wild. So I was asking you maximizer versus being satisfied. Sir, heavily All We Have you ever been a maximum?
Yeah so just like I think you can't preach.
Each minimalism to somebody who hasn't felt the pain of having too much stuff. Yep. They need to feel the pain of having to look after too many things and having a cluttered house and they go. I need someone with them, you can't just preach it to them. So I think it's the same thing with maximizing and satisficing, and I think satisficing is a lifestyle for me now or something. That's deeply internalized. Let's say because I felt the pain from trying to maximize decisions and spending hundreds of hours.
Trying to find the best
this or best that are, you know,
make the best decision. I mean, God, I write in my journal so much so many pages on something in the end of the psyche, I felt the pain from doing this. Now, I need to do learn how to say good enough. And now that I put that into action, it was because of reading Paradox of choice. I said, okay, I need to do this. He's right, dude, smarter than me, I'm gonna do this. So, yeah, I just internalised it and I did it in when I catch myself in a moment. See, I think, like shortly after reading the Paradox of choice moved to
Oregon. It's a pretty car focused City. See the baby office was out in the far reaches and I needed to get a car. And I had just recently, read Paradox of choice. And I said, I'm gonna give myself two hours to choose a car maximum. And so, yeah, I in two hours, I did quick research for 30 minutes, went out to some car. Lots looked at a few options, but this one good enough. I love that car. Yeah. Was it the best possible choice now? Who knows? Well for you was.
Yeah, right. Minimizing or Grant? Yeah, two hours.
Kind of like the I don't know who the hyper effective person is you mentioned earlier, but choosing that they're just a couple things that you care enough about. Like, I am glad that Josh waitzkin is not a satisficer. I am glad that he went all the way down
the rabbit hole. I'll tell you, I don't think you'd mind. So I believe that it is Josh actually said that to me where he's like I basically focus on like one or two things. Yeah. And then the rest,
right? Because he's so intense about those
cut good enough. I mean you have to
Right. It's a he's another one who walks the walk and a big way, right? Yeah. So I have you met Josh? No, he's a URL for you guys would hit
it off. He's one of those invisible mentors, not like, you know, officially but I loved his book. The Art of learning, you have listened News interviews and I really admire him. And so I have many times wondered, like, when I've hit some kind of dilemma a situation, like, what would Josh waitzkin
doing this that? Yeah, I mean, no, social doesn't really email. Hmm. There are so many conventions that he box.
That's really
inspiring. Yeah, and so it's and that's kind of one of those, you know, nobody cares, what you're bad at things. It's like I'm sure there's a bunch of stuff that Josh waitzkin is not good at and he just doesn't matter good enough. But have I always been like this now I think I had to feel the pain. What did you use to maximize at any point? Think 10 years ago I over thought the where to live thing a lot as feeling very free after I sold my company is like
What do you do? If you can do anything but you don't have to do anything and where do you go? When you don't have to be anywhere and you can be anywhere. It's like too much Freedom.
It was a complete Blank Slate with no restrictions at all. I wasn't even in a
relationship. I was just completely Unbound and so I spent far too long in my diary thinking, of every possible place on Earth, I might live. And why I could or I spent hours reading about places that
Still haven't even visited. But I learned all about them even know what it takes to move there and, you know, the Naturalization law of becoming a citizen there and the steps to becoming a resident there, and the pros and cons of living there. And I've read books about it, still haven't been there, because I did that for many countries, so that's something that was like, 10 years ago. I was still maximizing that. Hmm, and now, here we are in New Zealand. We're at the longest I've ever lived somewhere in my life. Right here. I used to always move around every two years and I've been right here
in Wellington Mark. Do 11 years
now. That's wild. It's good enough. Yeah.
I mean there's a lot to be said for it. I want to say four people listening also that you might think good Lord like this is pretty head in the clouds. One percenter stuff in the sense like that doesn't apply to me. That's crazy but so I would just point out that God I got this from a documentary, it wasn't helvetica which is a great documentary about typefaces and fonts and so on really cool. Doc. There's another one about industrial design and there's an expression in that that stuck with me.
To this day, I think it was from a company or one of the founders of frog design, but I could be getting that wrong and it was the extremes and form the mean, but not vice versa. Something along those lines. It's like, when they're designing, say garden shears. They're not designing for the average person. They're designing for the edge cases. So, it's like the old paraplegic woman, who needs to use it from her wheelchair and then the, I'm making this up like the 350-pound bodybuilder, who, like can't brush his teeth because his arms are too big.
Okay, if you design for those edge cases at opposite ends of the spectrum, you cover everyone. But if you design for the average person, your error rate is going to be really high. And so I've thought about that in so many different domains. So in this case I'm saying you're providing from a socio-economic perspective and Edge case, right? Like broadly speaking. But there are principles in that exaggerated state that are easy to see that are harder to see in some of the cases that are
Closer place just called the middle of the bell curve. So I would just say that we're exploring these things and the experience of this over optimizing and Paradox of choice and burnt cycles and something like location. I think everyone listening can find somewhere, they can find some place where there are over optimizing in that way.
Thanks for framing it like that. Sometimes I feel guilty speaking candidly
I'd lie about something that's actually going on with me. If I know that it doesn't apply to everybody, whatever I do publicly, I try to make it for them and yeah, it's not so much my personal expression is it is me giving back? Yeah, like the world's given me a lot. This is what I do to give back.
But it's a nice reminder. What? You just the way you just framed. It's kind of like Felix Dennis writing his how to get rich book dude is worth 600 million or something. When he wrote that he didn't have to write that book and he wrote about his extreme case. But for me as a small fry reading, it it was really useful to read what somebody in an extreme situation did and how he made his choices. You don't have been meaning to ask you forever. I'm sorry. Wait yeah I can hold on to that question. Maybe it's
too late. I don't give a shit fire
away when people ask the
Question, what would you tell your younger self? What's the real question there? I unfortunately have taken that question, literally, too often. And you asked me seven years ago when I said women like sex,
right? Forgot about that. Because to me
that moment that's what I wanted to tell my younger self. I felt like culture sold us. This story that women don't like sex, it is something men want and women, reluctantly give. And so for like, most of my
My life. I was trying to be considerate. And so I was not entirely sexless but mostly and it wasn't until my late 40s. Yeah. That was like, oh my God, women like sex. Yeah, nobody told me this. Oh my God has changed everything. I like had more sex in the last three years than in the rest of my life combined, because this newfound insight. And so what would I tell my former self will fuck. Yeah. That's what I would tell my for myself, but that's just me. Yeah, I don't think that's the question. The
question is, what advice would you give me?
Right. You know I'm saying? What someone says, what advice would you give your younger self, right? But they're really asking is, what advice would you give someone? Who is not where you are, but who wants to be where you are? That's why I think that is the translation. What
advice? Would you give someone? Who wants to be? Where you are? It's not where you are, like, how to get, how do I get where you are? I
think that's what people are generally asking, right? Because I don't give a shit. What you really, what younger self would do? They care about what they would do, rightly. So,
But the answers are actually very different. If I'm being honest, the answer is that I would give to some person who specifics. I don't understand are very different from the advice. I would give to my younger self, right? Because in my case, having a history of some very extreme depression and near suicide in college. And so on, like my advice would be related to
self-preservation MMM and
Recommending perhaps certain tools like meditation like consistent, which I had on some level, but I didn't think I could have tripled down on consistent exercise. Perhaps, supervised, psychedelic therapy is ETC. Which don't apply to everybody. They just don't. I mean, I think some of those things might apply to some people, but if someone's really asking like, how do I achieve X, how do I have the life that you have?
Number one, I would say you don't actually know what life I have you get the Highlight Reel and you get what I share in podcast, but you don't have the full picture. So be careful what you ask for. Number two, I don't understand the assumptions embedded in them wanting X, hmm? Right. Because if their assumption is, let's just say and you and I have seen this in ourselves and our experience and the experience of many others. Like once I have X amount of money, all my problems just
Pierre right? Like the vapor of missed hit by the Rising Sun like all my problems just vanish and that is an incorrect assumption but if somebody's just asking that a Q&A at South by Southwest or something, you don't have the time you don't lie right space to unpack, all of that. So any answer you give is going to be hopefully helpful, but it could be really
misdirecting in a way. It's funny. The the nature that these questions come to his end is usually
Question asked one answer expected but if you think of the physical metaphor, just imagine that you are somewhere on Earth right now. So you're sitting in a somewhere in Argentina and a phone call comes in, says, how do I get there? How do I get to where you are the bull pens, where you are? Are you in Brazil? Are you in France? You know, are you in Finland? Where are you? But that would take a back and forth that we don't have. If somebody asks you one question, how do I get where you are? Hmm,
The only honest answer to that depends. Yeah, it's not a sound
bites. Is the question you clapped her hands as a question. You wanted to ask. What question? I think. People are asking when I asked. Yeah, he wanted to thank you because I've always found. It's like,
how do I, how do I think of that question? I keep getting that question all the time on podcasts. Hmm. Dammit this question again. It's like, what I would tell my younger self, I think it came up again, just two
weeks ago. As like, it comes up a good amount. Yeah, I need a good answer for
that without the snarky saying, I don't understand the question.
Yeah, it's
not a bad question. It's just so context-specific that it's not just sometimes on helpful, but I think dangerous to give too broad a response. Yeah. To use your sort of geographic metaphor, right? You just send somebody off in completely the wrong direction. We call me in the morning, Antarctica, sorry about that. Yeah, I thought you were in France.
Kiko East romantic how do they do directions and card?
So yeah I mean unless you're at the South Pole you can give you could give those because I suppose it gets a little tricky but the good news is pretty much nobody there so you're not going to be giving too many directions to people. They're gonna be it, they're going to be at some type of base of some type. I've only been once to Antarctica actually recorded a podcast in act in
Antarctica at an outdoor tent with someone another field biologist and photographer which is super fun. You know, but I'll always sleep to Matt mullenweg. Yeah, I owe him. Thanks. Yet again for getting me down there
it was one of my favorite episodes here is that. It's a combination with Matt and act Arctic. Oh yeah. You
know, I actually recorded to I did one with Matt and I did one with. I want to say her name is Sue flood but I could be blanking on the name so this amazing photographer wow to podcasts and and yeah.
Fun. That's why that's gonna
yeah. Yeah. That was also if I know Matt all I know that there's probably some Scotch involved with that as
well. I like how my son spent time with you in Wellington and wanted to ask, you questions about Antarctica and instead he had a more pressing question which is what is it like to be 16? Yeah. What is 16 year
olds? Do I do 16 year, olds walk and behave. Do you want explain the
context? We we took him to see John Wick
for
What's a job before? Turns out that, in addition, to biosecurity, in New Zealand people, the movie theaters are really strict.
Yeah. Weirdly that was off point for New Zealand. New Zealand, is a wonderfully, casual culture, formalities are very uncommon here, but that was a weird moment of strictness where they wouldn't. Let my eleven-year-old come in to see John Wick, but we were determined to
get a middle. You see in the memorized, all the job like
movies. I think I seen all the previous ones. He's seen much worse.
He's read The Saga, comic books, highly recommended, by the way, Saga, best graphic novel? Anyway, it's so he's seen it all. So I went in to try to get the tickets. Well, my son and Tim were out on the street and he said, can you teach me how to
16 16 year olds behave? We're fortunate. We had some sort of zoo animals in the former three other sixteen-year-olds nearby. And so he's trying to mimic it and I was like, okay, you're very smart. You're very verbally intelligent. He's
Very clever kid, and thats I but the body language in the energy is not at all matching a sixteen-year-old. So we gotta work on this little bit. He had pulled the sleeves of his sweaty in his hoodie up and I was like, I'm not sure that's helping it might be hurting, you look very conspicuous and then he'd pulled down the sleeves to make his arms look longer but the but the proportions are all wrong. So he looked kind of like ET and I'm like I think you're drawing more attention then you want to draw. But the whole thing was very cute.
He means so much to me that it's I'm proud of myself that I didn't cry. When I told the story about the cardboard box in London. I almost did.
Yeah. And your answer when I asked you what makes you emotional? Was anything really to Parenting? Yeah, if
you guys have ever seen or go see the song Papaoutai by the Belgian musician Stroh, my it's basically this it was a hit single in France and Belgium. There's a great music video for it. If this guy who's basically being a bad dad and when he and I watched that video together, I always cry.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it got through enough right now. Yeah, yeah, it's serious. Which is, which is new in my experience of Derek severs like seeing this. Why
do you think that is? It's so important. The stakes are. Well, yeah, shit. Well, yeah, a new experience. Good to collect myself for a second. It's the stakes are so high. It's like, if you do this right, it passes on. WOW.
I said hmm.
Roll on any Rush. Zero
Rush
It's funny also collecting my thoughts and how to say this, I don't have to explain it much, nobody's asked directly, it's like, if you do this, right, it passes on from many generations, a kid that's raised really well and like, past that generosity of spirit and then somebody that's raised, like, ignored them. I pass on that, um, like scarcity of spirit, you know, hmm. Holy shit. I'm not doing this for the media. This is not like trying to be a. Yeah, I'm Captured Moment. Holy shit.
Yeah, thank you for answering that this is new. Also, also for folks, what a gift that you have, something that you respond this way to
the all,
It's kind of the only thing I do my ex after we broke up said, like, wow, I've known you for so many years. I've never seen you get mad. I've never seen you cry. I've never even really seen you get upset. Like, yeah, I just don't really like, I'm a happy dude. Yeah, they're like this is the only thing, but it's like, it's not. It's not a obviously, like not an upset cry. It's like, holy shit. This is such a big
deal there. We've covered a lot. I'm just saying. I don't, I don't feel like we need to cover anything more. So anything you'd like to say.
Request to the audience. Anything at all. Before we wrap up,
you're going to say this is crazy. But still to this day, like my currency, the thing that matters to me more than money, the thing, obviously many things. Do I still really like meeting people? Like, I just recently went to India and went to Chennai, and Bangalore for 10 days, and I sat down and talked with 50 people in ten days. I had one to two hour long conversation with a 50 people and a lot.
Out of these. 50 people are people that I've been emailing with for years. Like they just contacted me out of the blue because they read my article. I read my book or they heard a podcast and they emailed to introduce themselves and here it is. 10 years later. Now, I'm in Bangalore and we finally meet, and it was so damn, rewarding and similar things like went to Helsinki Finland for the first time and what do I email say? Like who do I know in Helsinki and there were a number of people that had emailed over the years to introduce themselves and soon I'm like sitting naked in a sauna with some dude that
emailed me because
As you know, he read
my book, this matters to me more than money. So it's like the reason I do a podcast like this, it's like I'm clearly not selling anything. Don't have a big ask, but I really like it when people email to introduce themselves, especially if it's not coming with a loaded question. Like, what would you tell your younger self, you know, what should I be doing with my life? But when people introduce themselves, it means the world to me. It's really cool to feel.
Connected with people from around the world to know that I have friends in India or have friends in Nigeria, our friends in Finland. That's my favorite thing is hearing from strangers. So honestly like my website which I made myself as a static HTML website, speaking of our earlier tangent if you go to S IV e dot RS. Yeah. Just send an email and introduce yourself. That's my surprising.
Do other domains point to that.
It used to be servers dot-org. Yeah,
you still.
Of that. I so yeah I'm Gonna Keep in that forever but that's my minimalism thing at one point. I looked at that, I'm like, dot-org, we're doing this
mess. Serbia, Serbia. Okay, but one of my favorite texts is lobsters lob, Ste .rs. Okay.
Lobsters. What the hell is a lobster's
about? It's just it's just a random domain name they got. But it's like it's it's really, it's programmers and sysadmins talking Tech and it's fine. It's like Hacker News - the business. I hope I didn't send a bunch of traffic there. A
I looked at the dot Oregon, I used to have serious dot org and I looked at it I was like I'm not really an organization. A my those four characters aren't really necessary. Ours was like I think I could reduce those and so yes I ve .rs. All right.
It's just super is with a DOT between the E and
the are. Yeah, perfect. Yeah, thank you
Derek. So nice. It's so good to hang out and have some scotch and and make me cry. Hold off life. Yeah, it's my first
time in like three or four years I've never seen him
cry. Yeah.
Wow, exclusive to. It's a podcast first.
Just trying to help out my friends and I get
him some more view all the videos. So I could hang on YouTube. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off and that is five bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday? That provides a little fun before the weekend between one and a half and two million people subscribe to
Free newsletter, my super short newsletter called five bullet Friday, easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things. I found or discovered or have started exploring over that week kind of like my diary of cool things it often includes articles and reading books, I'm reading albums, perhaps gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that gets sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests and these
Strange. Esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short. A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. Something think about if you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim not blog / Friday type that into your browser. Tim dot blog, / Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.
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