Welcome to the disrupted entrepreneurs podcast. What does the word disruptive mean to you? It means going beyond the ordinary gone beyond the status quo not thinking in the conventional way not just sort of following the herd disruptive means they can things up, you know disruptive entrepreneur is somebody who sees the problem and Embraces the problem with a new way shake-up an Awakening quality will take care of itself and you'll go for being disruptive but also profitable when you use
Your own reservoir of talents when you love what you do, then you disrupt mix it up turned up and dominate and now your host eight times bestselling author and double world record holder Rob Moore. Hello and welcome to the disruptive entrepreneur podcast. It's producer Harry here. The guest on the show. Today is none other than cdbaby founder Derek severs. So Derek is most known for being the founder of cdbaby CD.
Be was one of the largest online distributions of independent music it was reported. I believe in 2008 that Derek sold the company for about 20 22 million dollars. So in this interview Derek gets into detail about you know, how he exactly Grew cdbaby From nothing just an idea and then grew and scaled it and sold it for that Reno reported 22 million, but this is a really diverse and really open conversation with both Rob and Derek. So both Robin, don't forget into dealing with rejection there. It's got some really
really powerful insights into dealing with rejection and how to develop your confidence talk about relationships. Derek has been on many different TED talks and he talks about his process and how first off how he got onto TED Talks how he you know is really nailed his skills and public speaking. There's a lot of discussion about entrepreneur traits. What makes a great leader. Like I said, it's a really diverse and open conversation, which I hope you guys will enjoy so final thing from me. We also have a YouTube channel. So if you want to watch the video not of just this interview,
All the other interviews we do we make videos on all the interviews. So head over to Rob more on YouTube subscribe and enjoy so enough for me. Let's just get straight into the interview with cdbaby founder Derek Shivers, but remember if you don't risk anything your risk everything. Hello, everyone. I am I'm privileged excited and slightly nervous Derek when you say that I am and then you paused I thought you'd forgotten.
Your name for a second. Yeah, you are officially Derek the person who has rejected me the most for an interview That's essential. I think it was five or maybe six times and I've pondered why I asked you so many times and didn't get the hint and I'd love to ask you straight off the bat. Why did you return what? Well, let me ask you two questions if you don't mind are.
Sure. Why did you reject me? Once two three four, five six? And then why did you accept to come on the show for the sixth on five or six years ago? I did an interview with Tim Ferriss who's an old friend of mine. And I didn't realize his podcast was so famous. So I gave my email address on the air and over 8,000 people emailed to be over the next couple months and it became a full-time job. In fact, I had to hire an assistant just too.
Help me triage all these emails. It was a full-time 12-hour day job for a couple months just to answer the emails from that one podcast. So after that one I said right I'm not going to do any podcast for a while that was enough and then it's a certain mode that I get into where I have absolutely nothing on my calendar. Like I literally like I don't have a Google Calendar. I don't keep appointments. I have nothing scheduled ever and had nothing scheduled for five years, and it was really nice.
Just everyday just do my own thing. And if somebody said hey, could we do an interview? I just say so I did none for five years with anybody no matter how famous and then a few months ago. I felt ready to start doing them again. Nothing to do with the corona stuff. It was a few months before that. And so now I've just built it into my schedule and I've got this camera and microphone setup. So it's easy for me to just step over here and hit record.
Gordon go so, that's why the it was it was a nothing personal I said no to absolutely everybody for five years. I am I'd love to come back to that in a moment Derek, but I that's how I found you actually I listen to the Tim show and I was one of those 8,000 people. Yep. I love that. I love that it was worth it to me. You know, I don't think that that was a mistake. I think it was wonderful because oh my God, there's 8,000 people that I met because of that including to
Then that later became girlfriends and great loves and one that I was just talking with an hour ago. Wow, and these are all just because of random connections because I gave out my email address. So no regrets at all. I think it's wonderful and let's talk about that. We've only got three Loops open here, but that is the magic of podcast. That's the magic of people like you Derek and I'd like to put myself in the get same category. I will reply to everybody see my other team.
Al's me yeah and I will give my email out even in a place where maybe that you might get inundated. I like meeting new people and I think that there's some mystery and some beauty in that when everyone else is kind of doing the opposite and saying all speak to my agent or a yeah, yeah, whatever and you know, you replied back we had a dialogue even when you rejected me you rejected me politely. I always remember that and I don't know when people reject me politely. I have to go again and again and you know, obviously we you know, it's not likely.
Love is like you've met with some other people on the TV show, but even doing lend and of course, I'm really into Radiohead and you know, just kept a little dialogue going and I yeah kind of a beautiful thing that gets a bit lost at the moment would you say? Yeah, and he I mean there's another lesson in that story is that persistence is polite. I think this is a counterintuitive lesson that's hard to learn because when we are teenagers and we have a crush on somebody that doesn't have a crush.
Rush back, then we learn that persistence is inconsiderate and thoughtless persistence means you're dense. You're not taking a clue but in business persistence is polite because the alternative is to contact somebody once and if you don't get what you want, then you give up and you kind of curse them and you know, say bad things about them for years to come. Whereas instead if you understand that a rejection is nothing personal at all has nothing to
Do with you. It's just their current situation. Well, then that's actually very thoughtful in polite of you to just politely persist. That's very true. And look I don't take rejection that world. There are can you wouldn't have known that when but that's because when I was a child, I had a lot of rejection, but I've tried to learn years to be more mature and grateful but one thing I want to say about podcast because there's a couple of things that struck me and I think why I did just check-in, you know, I think
Think it'd be fair to say I didn't Hound your just checked in every six months or a year or something like that. But one I think the interview with yourself and Tim was must have been a good two hours. So I felt I felt like I really knew you from a podcast which I know is crazy. I know that almost makes you sound like you're not crazy. Yeah. I just you know, because that is the the intimacy of a podcast. I think I thought
I didn't know Derek before I'd your new CD Baby your previous company. I knew that but I didn't know you it didn't matter. I really liked for me. You had some very alternative and thought-provoking ideas. Like the third person is the most successful person that you think I'm not the first and I found that really challenging to my thought process which I really liked so that stayed with me and then the second thing was your voice you have got the most. I'm sorry, if it's a man crashes just I'm just I have 2 I'm an honest guy.
The show you've got a voice. I haven't I broke a public speaking world record six years ago. I ruined my voice. I have a terrible voice and you have this like beautiful deep warm voice. And yeah, sorry there it goes sometimes thank you. So yeah, that's what that podcast. Did it created some I mean, I know you had eight thousand emails and that's not intimate, but I bet the 8,000 people many of them. They emailed you have
Already a connection with is probably a very intimate thing. Yeah, so that's why sometimes people think like if somebody looks over my shoulder when I'm doing my emails. They say God these total strangers are pouring out their heart to you. What the hell and I say no I get it because they just listened to me for two hours. And so now for them to email me a mere four paragraphs is understandable, you know, it's a conversational human reciprocation if somebody was speaking
Being at you for two hours. And now it's your turn to say something back. Of course, you'd you'd share something back in return for all this person. Just shared it some I think it's totally understandable. In fact, I think it's usually wonderful. I mean every now and then there is of course like the one out of a thousand that indulge has a little too much Lou to in considerately and starts to project stuff on to me, but those situations are so so rare people think they're more common, but no it's really rare.
For me, I mean, luckily. I'm glad I'm not as famous as Tim. So people don't you know total strangers don't project onto me that much. So I think it's great and the the have met some amazing people. Like I said, I mean not just romances but some really cool people around the world and people that have, you know, literally completely across the world from Mozambique or something and then they happen to be passing through where I live and we meet up in person because we've emailed him a few times and how cool is that? You know, I love I guess.
We a great sense of security from all the cool people. I've met around the world. Yeah, and you know, you talk about podcasts and going on podcast and you could grow your business and your brand you don't talk about also building relationships the bigotry but I have to go I have to go here Derek. So you're saying basically had two partners of Tim Ferriss his podcast.
Yeah, two and a half. Yeah, I mean, well, you know, it's just the initial. I mean, yeah. Okay. We'll use I will not name names but the woman I was actually just speaking with an hour ago. We're just your friends now, but yeah, yeah, she emailed me like the day after it went on the air. She listened to it while walking around Prague one day and ended up then checking out my other stuff and then sent me this long email that was just
just like amazing. She's an amazing person just absolutely brilliant. She's a scientist in Sydney with an amazing background. And yeah, I just, you know, we emailed a few times I just said, well your I want to know you you're a really really interesting person. So I said, oh, what's your phone number? And we got on the phone. We started talking every day and you know one thing led to another so then yeah that happened a couple years later and then you're after that. Yeah good stuff. Wow. I've not had a story like that before so.
I feel like that the walls but politely put there that I should push it any further on details as I well, you know, I mean after that is mean there's always the you know, how you meet somebody is not that important, especially when so many people say they only know we met on Tinder or whatever. So I think it's actually much cooler to meet people that find you because you're putting yourself out there, you know, whether I mean, I'd like to think that if somebody
was a painter constantly painting and putting their paintings out there and the kind of person who falls in love with their artwork is probably somebody that you'd you'd be more likely to want to meet that person instead of just a random stranger at the pub somebody who was moved by your art is somebody that it just now it becomes a natural filter, you know, somebody's moved by your writing or moved by anything. You've put out there into the world. You know, that's a part of you that's a part of your soul and if they already have been drawn to that, that's a much better.
Start then, you know, hey, you're hot after a couple beers in. Oh, yeah, mate you down the gym or the pub we met from the Tim Ferriss shit. Right? So Derek, I never ask people to do their own introductions are just it's not a thing I do but I know good we don't have to do that for ya. And I'll I'll do an introduction at the start when we record and I always do them at the end once I've you know had the time with my guests.
Just as opposed to just going on Wikipedia. Right and I am I actually put some posts out into my communities getting people to guess who you were because I like to have fun and getting together. I'm just saying them quite quite a lot of people did guess and so but 50/50 split. Oh, yeah Derek. I had him on the team fresh. I love him and then half of people didn't know so what would you say you're most known for or what? Would you most like people to know that you're most known for it's not just one thing and that's my real.
Answer because in 2008 I would have clearly said yeah, I'm only known for CD Baby and that's probably all I will ever be known for and that was a really sad thought to me, you know 2008 and when I sold CD Baby and I felt like I've piqued my best is behind me. My gravestone will say he did see the baby and nothing since all right, but then in 2009, I got this inspiration that I really wanted to be like a Ted speaker writer author kind of guy and
and I did it. I nailed it. I spoke at the main stage Ted conference three times in one year and by 2010 2011 everybody. I met only knew me through Ted and people would ask me like so what did you do before Ted was like, yes, I made it past the you know known only for cdbaby thing and then my book came out my book anything you want came out in 2011 and a lot of people only know me through my book or the other stuff I've written.
About since then on my blog and my book and they don't know that I did Ted and they don't really know that I did cdbaby except for some, you know, one line in my bio. So yeah, it's those three different things. It's my writing my speaking and then this music company. I started long ago now a couple of things that have come out there week if I'm fascinated can one of them is why still a relatively young age with so much life ahead of you when you'd had one success. Did you think that was going to be it? Why did you
Not think that was going to be many other things. I'm not money ambitious. I think I'm not the kind of person that would say, you know, hey, you put mitt drop me anywhere on Earth with a dollar in my hand and I'll turn it to a million within a year. I'm not that guy because I don't care that much. I'm ambitious in my ideas, but not in my bank account, you know, so CD Baby
Got successful. I think through just dumb luck or not dumb luck smart luck being in the right place at the right time. It was definitely really good timing where I started cdbaby just at the beginning of the first.com. Boom. Got out just a month before the financial collapse of 2008 just really nice timing and that's why it was a hit. So I just felt like still I could I could say to this day that I probably will never create something that big again.
But if my articles spread my books and my writing and my thoughts and all that then yeah, that would be cool. But I don't think I'm ever going to start a company like that. But I guess maybe at the time I was thinking that I was still in the entrepreneur mindset that you know, a company is what you do as is leaving your mark on the world, you know. Hmm. Okay, and you said pretty much it sounded like within a year you got on Ted not once not twice, but three times. How did you do that?
I'm very deliberately I spent about a year being lost after I sold the CD Baby and then at the time I was watching a lot of TED Talks I don't anymore but at the time I was really into it in 2008 and suddenly I just kind of got this flash of inspiration. Like I want to be one of those people like I want the Ted conference to invite me to speak. So I just went through it like very deliberately and methodically like I need to write something radically.
Ting every single day and share it as widely as I can and constantly pitch the Ted conference with a bunch of different ideas that I think will fit perfectly into their thing. And yeah, that's what I did. So yeah just it was a very deliberate process and I was thrilled that it worked and before we went on air Derek you said that you spent a good couple of hours?
Preparing for this interview, which I'm flattered by although it's not about me. It's about you. I get that. I did the most research for the questions for you than I've ever done with any guests as well in a little taneous parallel universe cause what I thought well if I'm going to ask you to be on my show five times, I should do some bloody work and the second thing was, you know, you asked for questions in advance, which a lot of my guests don't because I've got the sense if you're going to prepare I should prepare and by the way,
I haven't asked you any of those. Yeah, that's often the way I like things to start but I did watch all of your TED talks and watch one before I did watch them. I did watch as much of your content as I could find and I find some of your ideas fascinating as someone who has built my own business and probably learned from the more. I don't know traditional success classes if you like, you know, and I always found that an idea of
I thought I held you challenged many of those ideas. And I really like that. I think you were the first person I listen to you were almost like the the anti success and tea business anti personal development and business Success personal development person in a weird way and I love that. I felt like I was ready for that. Thanks, whether we do, you know, that that's for what it's worth that's intentional to that. You know, when I talk about this thing in 2009 where I said I wanted to be like a Ted Speaker Guy
I realized that TED Talks are only interesting if they surprise, you know, it's somebody gets up there no matter how emotional maybe maybe but if they only tell you stuff you already know or especially if they only tell you their own life story to me, it's just not interesting. You don't remember those the ones you remember the ones that make you go, huh? That's not that's weird. That's completely opposite of what I would have thought that upends my expectations on this thing. So therefore I try to only
Put out into the world things that are surprising me because yeah, if you just tell somebody what they already know, then it might even help motivate them a tiny bit, but it's not that interesting. So yeah, thank you. That was it was a nice compliment and it's because I try to just do that thing. Yeah. Thank you. And that's how I meant it to be a complex. Ah, I really got tents and I think it probably started my
I don't know what this look I'm trying to do is you know, but it's not think that truly think different but not think that trillion different in a conventional sense. I know that sounds like a paradox. I know it's million. So one that leads us into one of the questions that I prepared based on, you know, really great answer I saw from you and that is about leadership being or over-glorified and and I got the sense that you felt in. A lot of ways leadership will being the first was over glorified and I'd love your take
take on that. Sure. Okay. So this is from my it's from my TED talk about the dancing guy in the first follower of thing. So it's a video of a shirtless guy dancing and I think that he gets all the credit for starting this movement of dancers, but if you watch it again and you watch closely, I think it's the first guy that followed him that wheelie got everything else to follow until then he was just a weirdo dancing and you didn't really want to follow him. It was until one person had the guts.
To imitate him then that person made it cool. So the meta lesson here is I think that like everybody likes the story of a single person that gets the credit right like when you say no. No, it wasn't me. You know, it was the team we say yeah and rationally week say okay. I'm sure it took more than this one person. But on a more instinctual gut emotional level we still think it's the one person who gets the credit, right?
So in Richard Branson's autobiography, I think it was losing my virginity. He said I found that that the Press would only write about Virgin if they had a face to put to the company's name and Richard Branson is the naturally shy guy he didn't want to do it but he was very ambitious and wanted virgin to be a huge success. So it was only after he saw okay if I
Them use me as a human interest story. My company gets a lot more media. He saw the results of that and he saw that they were getting way more media coverage if they let them cover him if he stepped into the spotlight only then did he somewhat reluctantly and then enthusiastically step into the spotlight. So that's the pr angle. That's the media angle. But in reality behind the scenes the truth is it takes a great team to get anything done, right?
Right like a charismatic leader with a bad team will fail but an uncharismatic leader with a great team is more likely to succeed. So to me that's just the proof that leadership is over-glorified because it makes for a more interesting story. But the truth is it's the team that makes things happen. Mmm, and I think what you mentioned just then and I remember you
Making this point very strongly in this Ted Talk the courage of that second person, right? They they took the I know the first person like you said the first person it's always the light is Shone on them. But that second person who risked the ridicule and you know, if I think about my team my MD and a couple of other early members of my team, you know, they took big risks. They don't I had my company when we were nothing and they've been with this 12 years and now we're something but they took a massive risk, I don't eat
Taken my risk you could definitely argue that they and they went out of corporate environment into an entrepreneurial environment working for this crazy Nutter slow You could argue they had more courage than me and they took a leap of faith in me a bit like the second because the first guys already crazy isn't he's there. Well, look at me I'm dancing. He's already crazy, but the second one's got some loose. Yes. Somebody has to
Make it easy to follow. So I think the first follower shows everybody else how to follow and what you can do. If you are in the position of the first if you were the lone nut the you know that has nobody else following you yet. If you're somebody listening to this and you want to go Pioneer something but you want people to start following you and contributing. I think the best thing you can do is to make yourself easy to follow and what that means is to take the time to
make clear instructions on how to join and how to contribute and make it appealing and make it fun. Then most importantly try to develop a system from the beginning where your followers then can become leaders themselves so that the new followers are actually following your followers instead of just following you. Yeah. I am I find that fascinating because like you said when people give
It to the team and then never really thought about it like this until you sort of said it Derek but in a way that's just lip service, isn't it? Yeah, you're damn, right? It's a difference between head and heart rate. It's like in our head we can go. Yeah. Okay. I know Elon Musk isn't sitting there making all those cars himself. He didn't invent everything. I know Steve Jobs himself didn't invent the iPhone. We know that rationally, but her heart still thinks that yeah, Steve Jobs iPhone iPhone Steve Jobs. Oh, yeah the test.
Ella Elon Musk. We still think it's one person emotionally, even if we don't rationally hyslop here interrupting you with something you may not know about me. I was one of the few people on the planet hand-selected by Facebook to Pilot their new support a program. It's a very small premium model where you can get exclusive content and advance notice or discount of new products and services. So this is what I've done.
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So something I've always struggled with most of my life Derek which is why I wanted to ask you this question is maybe the fear of being disliked ridiculed.
Not valued not noticed embarrassed ashamed bullied. I used to be really overweight as a kid and I shook the weight when I was about eleven, but I only really the last few I mean business is kind of hard and me up a little bit but it's still there inside right? And I know you've got some thoughts on developing the thinking to be
Have the courage to be ridiculed because I don't know it for me. It's never really gone away that feeling inside but maybe the courage to face it as got stronger. Mmm. It's not like the demons are gone. It's just that I'm prepared to face them. What are your thoughts on, you know Having the courage to be disliked. Can you just go? Oh, well, it doesn't matter and brush it off or do you have to somehow develop some strategies to cope? Yeah. I think it's
Developing a strategy that maybe more accurately be could be called a stance which is to amplify your quirks instead of downplaying them. So to just set yourself apart from the crowd.
At every step, right? So it's like for example, if you don't like meeting with people will then go all the way right like move to the middle of nowhere loudly announce that you don't meet with anyone for any reason and just amplify that present that preference right? So you'll attract those that wish that they could or would do the same right? If you express your quirks at every stage of the way like even in your communication with clients the way that
Email people the way that your website looks should reflect your quirky personality and not just be the template WordPress thing, you know, so let's use as a good role model like hardcore musicians and I mean hardcore in any way, right? It could be like a country speed Punk metal pan, but the music business for 10 years. And so what I love is that sometimes when you meet these characters that have some kind of speed punk band, they don't go hello mister.
Shivers I'm calling to get my band up on your service. No, it said they'll okay. What's up? Motherfucker? How you doing, man? It's dropping its gonna kick you in the balls. In fact, it's gonna rip your balls off and then kick them in we want to get this thing distributed through you. How do we do it motherfucker? Can you just like you can't help but laugh when talking to this somebody that's doing that because they're not trying to please anyone they are loudly being who they are.
And in fact that's deeper branding by just going all the way instead of trying to be generic you amplify what's weird about you, you know, like we all could take a lesson from that take some extreme Niche and just go all the way with it. Whether it's being the most expensive, you know, the imagine if you're a dentist in a small town in you announce that you're going by referral only you will not just see anybody. You're only going to see people that are referred.
Buy a quality customer, you know, they just even that one little move would just put you into this, you know, High luxury category like no no. No, we don't just work with anybody. Um, maybe you want to be the most mysterious or the most ridiculous, you know, whatever your Niche maybe you amplify it. Um, my favorite example of this is Cards Against Humanity. I just started my favorite example example is the speed
Skunk speed punk band, but my second favorite example, the current one that we can all see on Wikipedia go to the Wikipedia page for Cards Against Humanity. It's a board game like a card game with you know, things written on the cards. It's like a party game, but look up on their Wikipedia page how they have an annual Black Friday promotions and they do the most ridiculously hilarious things every year for Black Friday digging ditches and dumping money into it and whatever.
And man, they have just such an amazing creative statement behind them which then to me is just right off the bat says no, we're not just an average Mattel board game. We're not trying to please everybody. We're taking an itch. Yeah, if I could be any company today, I would be Cards Against Humanity. I just love what they're doing. But your real question was about the courage to be ridiculed. Hmm. I think that if you do these kind of things I'm talking about
About then when somebody ridicules you or makes fun of you you think in a way you think well, then I'm doing something right? I like if you loudly Proclaim that you are the most expensive and somebody says yeah get off it get off your high horse you go, huh. There we go. That's what I want. I want you to scoff at how expensive I am because that means my Niche is being communicated right isn't it? If you look at sivir's dot-org if you look at my website,
Night, it's very very plane on purpose. I don't use any templates or Frameworks. I wrote every line of that HTML by hand and I don't stick in a single line that doesn't need to be there. It is plain and fast and minimal and that's my thing. Right the way that I write. There's not a sentence that doesn't need to be there. So my website is, you know on point with my writing which is my Niche. That's my thing. So when people do occasionally about once a month
I get an email usually from a web designer who says oh God, you're excited so ugly. Come on. Let me let me design you a better sight and I go and look at their site and it's just some typical WordPress thing. You know, I think no thank you. The fact that you call my seat site ugly means I'm doing something right and to add on to that. How do you not take things personally, if you're that kind of person because I think a lot of people are I coach and mentor
A lot of entrepreneurs and things get through your skin sometimes social media. You know, how do you not take things personally?
You will for one you have to know that the public you is not you that if I could wish one thing for everybody on the internet. I would wish that everybody would have used a stage name. Like we would all have an internet name and not a single human on earth would use their real name on the Internet. So therefore if somebody is criticizing Tracy rainbows for her ridiculous.
Marketing campaign will then Tracy rainbows knows that what they are advertised. What they are attacking is her Avatar that she put out there her stage name, you know, I'm sure Bono knows if somebody's criticizing Bono that that's not his real name. So somebody criticizes Bono he knows that they're criticizing the public Persona that he's put out there, right? So that's yes, that's a rock star but I think we all have our version of this that that you know, Rob Moore what Rob Moore puts out into the
World is not the whole incomplete person. You put out an aspect of yourself into the world. And if somebody attacks that well, that's not you that's a cardboard cutout of you that they're throwing Tomatoes at the real you is at home with your family the public you is not you and if you really adopt this mindset, which I did.
13 well specifically 13 years ago. I wrote an article that was very very unpopular and everybody attacked it and then I realized that all these people attacking it didn't know me at all. And in that moment. It was like I disconnected I cut the connection between my public self and my real self but this also means then if the public you is, not you then you can't take praise personally either when somebody Praises you their
Raising your public Persona, not the real you so you just kind of to me. I just disconnect from my public self. I wish in hindsight. I would have made a stage name, but it's too late now, but for anybody who hasn't put themselves out into the world too much yet. I highly recommend make a stage name not a you know, not a ridiculous Tracy rainbows one. Like I just made up but something that's believable where people might think it's your real name, but you'll know that that's not the real you. I think that's one of the best things you could do to
To keep that separation between the public you and the real you. Yeah, I've never had some use the analogy like that. I've heard people say don't think take things personally. They don't know the real you Etc, but I think the way that you've just explained in there's think it's brilliant actually Derek because I think it's easier to do that when you've got a Monica and Alter Ego, you know, like if you're playing computer games with your mates and your full some random crazy, you know, super
Man or something, right? Nothing's Gonna Hurt You is it right? Yeah, so that article what was it the 13 years ago article that no. No, it's boring. It's I had switched from the PHP programming language to Ruby on Rails for two years and after two years of trying to make Ruby on Rails do what I wanted. I switched back to PHP and on a little technical blog that I had at the time on somebody.
Is website I was like a guest blogger on somebody else's site. I wrote a little article for an audience of nobody about the seven technical reasons why I switched back to PHP after Ruby on Rails and I went to bed that night when I woke up in the morning like all the technical blogs had it as like their top ranked number one article and hundreds of commenters were attacking me personally and because people for programmers choice of programming language language is like religion, right?
It would be it would be like I criticize someone's religion and so it brought out all the attacks and for about a minute they hurt my feelings and then I just snapped and disconnected. Yeah, that's definitely liberating moment. If someone can do that guy said cut the cord. Yeah, so I had a really interesting conversation with Mark Randolph who's one of the original founders of Netflix, and he said something to me that
Really got me to think and I really enjoyed it.
Because if I'm honest Derek, I am a bit of a creative soul of our I love music. Maybe that's one of the ways I resonated listening to you because I got that sense. And so I must admit every now and again or maybe too much to be honest. I got this great idea and I've you know, I'm already trying to convince everyone and I know it's right and it's brilliant and I had a Eureka moment and I am a genius and Mark said no all ideas are rubbish. There's that. Oh
And also having been a business owner for 15 years and marketer a tester. I also know that actually no idea is really any good until he's been properly tested anyway, which is all ideas are bad. And you know, how much should we fight for our ideas or how much should it be a an a/b split test? I wrote this article if you got a silver is dot org slash multiply its My article about how ideas are just a multiplier of x.
Accusation and yeah, and idea itself is worth basically nothing if you don't execute on it and what's funny is there's this really interesting guy in New York city named James altucher and James Officer says that he writes down 20 new ideas every day or something like that and he encourages everybody else to do the same and something about that.
Just bothered me and I wasn't sure what it was and just this morning while peeing I have that's right. I am I thought you know, here's the problem is it if you're somebody who just say, let's take this to two extremes say you're somebody that comes up with 20 new ideas every single day. Well then by doing that almost by definition you don't have time to execute.
Cute on those ideas. So now let's take the Other Extreme. Imagine. You're somebody that comes up with one idea every 10 years. And so for 10 years you do nothing but execute that one idea full-time for 10 years given those two extremes. I'd place my bet on the success of the second person that has one idea and executes it every day for 10 years and maybe the reason I thought about this out of the blue was knowing that we were having this interview.
Tonight I thought about cdbaby again, which I don't I actually don't think about cdbaby lunch. It seems like two lifetimes ago. But I mean I'm 50 now and I started it when I was 27, right? So I did that one damn thing for 10 years. And I remember there was a certain point when the company was like eight years old that somebody pointed out to me. He said, you know that you actually haven't changed your website one single bit in five years.
And I want it, huh? I want it kind of like looked at the changelogs was like, yeah, you're right. I hadn't made a single Pixel a single line of HTML change the website in five years. It was just turning around in the sales were doubling every single year. I added nothing to it. I added no new ideas. I just kept executing that one single idea for 10 years straight and I think that's why it was a success people wanted me to Branch out like we're not some people would say. Hey, man, why don't you start?
Like DVDs, why don't you start doing this but and one well-meaning friend of mine is like, you know, you could make a lot of money if we started Distributing porn like no, I'm not looking for new ideas. Let's I'm executing. This one idea is all I can do right now and everything's doubling in size every year. So no, I'm good. Yeah, so why don't I was thinking about that ideas versus execution thing, right? So I think whenever you're not sure where you stand on something just do a hypothetical of taking it to two.
Seems right like the person that comes up with a hundred ideas that day the person that comes up with one idea every 10 years. We spell it out really extreme like that. It kind of helps you figure out where you might take a stand on that.
Hmm. I'm fascinated by this I could almost just now talked about this for the whole of the rest of the interior, which I could be a lot of preparation, but I'm going to challenge that a little bit Derek and that's in here we go because there could be an argument that maybe you need to I remember watching Ed Sheeran documentary and he said you've got a gun right a lot of rubbish songs and you cannot write a good song until you're gone and written a load of rubbish songs and
SLI, he's a brilliant writer and I thought you know, I love studying front men or people who write music and I've heard that before you got a lot of right a lot of rubbish. So yeah, if you're waiting for the one Eureka once every 10 years idea, have you haven't better maybe write a lot of your songs? Yeah. You're actually making me realize that there was
There is more to this thought that I forgot about this is one of the things I didn't write down. I literally was just thinking about it this morning and then you asked all right, but actually he would be the if I were to prescribe a recipe for someone it would be this it would be yes generate lots of ideas.
At the beginning and for every single one of them find a way to put them out there for testing, you know, like the that book The Lean Startup suggest actually make kind of a fake launching page for every one of your ideas, whether it's a physical product or a service you have in mind make the launching page first before you do anything else and tell the world about it and see how many people sign up as interested. Especially if you're actually asking for a credit card and if people
In willing to pull out their credit cards to pay for this thing. And if enough people sign up, then you go do the next steps and make the business happen, but if not enough people sign up it's interested. Then you just let the idea go. So my prescription would be to do lots of this ideation front and then when you found the idea that the world seems to like
And it and you launch it and it's working then stop this ideation process and just execute like crazy on that one idea and in hindsight, I guess that's what I did, you know before I started cdbaby. I did lots and lots of things that failed and then this one silly little hobby idea of mine took off and that's the thing that I focused on for 10 years. So yeah, that's that's a more nuanced more specific recipe. Yeah, because I guess there's a lot of people I'm trying to put
I myself in the shoes of many of my listeners who have not yet had their see baby idea. You know what they're I idea Etc. So there's still on that journey and I also speak to a lot of entrepreneurs who have convinced themselves. They're not creative and they don't have good ideas, which I personally think is nonsense. Oh, yeah, everybody has good ideas. So I guess what I like about 20 ideas for the sake of it and okay, I can see why I guess.
Creating ideas can get your idea muscle stronger. I get better at coming up with ideas by practicing coming up with ideas. And I don't know how you do that without having failures Etc. But as I think about myself, I've not particularly have high self worth in all areas direct but one area I do is I know I'm good at coming up with quite a lot of ideas and I think it's because
I was drawing when I was 4 or 5 years old and I just always had ideas and I so I guess I practiced it like you'd practice a martial art or anything like that. Right? It's all those people out there that don't clean their creative and don't think they have good ideas. I guess I'd like this discussion maybe to give them a little bit of guidance or confidence that actually it could be something they can practice and get better at you know that you would anything yet. Yeah, and ultimately you don't
Don't need a great idea. Ultimately business is just helping people. It's just being a public servant. You're just helping people with whatever they need help with. So if a lot of people in your neighborhood or saying I need help shoveling snow or mowing my yard or I need help fixing my website. Well, then if you just help all those people that need help well now you've got a successful business even though there was no brilliant idea there.
It doesn't you don't have to be super creative to help people. You just have to help them and ultimately that's what it's all about. So, I think this idea of needing to have a great idea comes from these occasional pseudo genius ideas where nobody knew that they wanted an iPhone until it existed. Right? Nobody knew that the existing Hoover Vacuums were not that impressive until Dyson came along and did a better one.
So that takes a certain level of creative genius, you know, they say the difference between genius and just smart is that the genius is the one that sees things that the rest of us can't see it's not just about being very skilled at something. So yeah, there's there's a place for those. Wow Innovations every now and then but 99% of the businesses out there that are successful are not. Wow Innovations. They're just a lot of them are just ditch diggers, you know.
Did you read Felix Dennis has book called How to get rich? Yeah loved it lovely to meet you. Absolutely love the team member when he made the point that that some of the most successful business people. He knows are the ones that are literally digging ditches and doing sewage management and waste management stuff like that. It's like, you know, it said everybody wants to chase the exciting glamorous idea. Everybody wants to be like a Hollywood movie produce or more, you know, two years ago. It was suddenly everybody wanted to be in Bitcoin blockchain.
Jade and he said, you know the most successful people I know are the ones that are just doing the humdrum work that needs to be done. They're not big idea people. So yeah, I'd rather just kind of pop this notion that you need to be a big idea person. I'm really glad we pushed a bit on that question went a bit due to hold it down because I've got a lot here and I'm thinking oh God the steric got till 2026. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tony said 26 years later. I'm really
Be glad we did because I've always thought that and you're far more ticket articulate the medic. So you say it with more Poise and let words but this is exactly why I've been thinking there's too much pressure for an idea to be a great one. That's the problem most like tetrapack. It's just milk cartons and that's made the parents and then the kids and the grandkids all billionaires. He - if you because he's a billionaire relays cables, not 90, I'd even go 99.99% of
Ideas, they're just Simple Solutions to problems hidden in plain sight. Yeah, but if we got our man and an idea creative, you got to be a genius. You got to get the Wow, which I think that's glorified.
I think that's if people don't get a lot about moment listening to that. Well, then, you know, I think you getting more people wanting to go out with me now Derek from happening, but we can't help but be influenced by the media, right, you know things get glorified, you know, they're not doing fancy cover stories on Fast Company magazine or whatever on is that still around, you know, they're not doing these glorious stories on the ditch diggers. Hmm.
It's like you say they're making billions in. Okay, so something else that really fascinated me that you said which was another one of those head-tilt us. But sometimes my dog looks at me like that what it's like when you do it and you said these sometimes or often the most successful person is the third person that comes to mind and I think that's got to be worth three Sherry one of them, although they didn't say that I said, it's more interesting.
To think about the third person that comes to mind. I think that the first and second thing that come to mind aren't very interesting because they're just they're automatic reflex again, like we're all influenced by mass media, right? So if somebody says I say name a famous painting you say Mona Lisa, that's not interesting, right? We all went there in our head famous painting Mona Lisa name a genius Einstein.
It's just too obvious. It's not interesting. So then you think well, okay. Don't say the first thing that comes to mind. Who's the second one that comes to mind in you? Mmm Richard Fineman. Okay. We'll even that's pretty obvious. Okay. So what's the third genius that would come to mind? Huh? Now you start thinking slowly you start thinking we'll wait Genius of what Genius of cooking Genius of wordplay you now you take a minute to go beyond your first reaction.
Action, so what I meant is I didn't say that the most successful person is the third person. I meant I went team was asking me who's the when I say successful who's the first person that comes to mind and their to say, yeah, I just disagree with the question. That's not a fun question. Let's not talk about the first thing that comes to mind. Let's talk about the third thing that comes to mind. It doesn't mean the third thing is more successful. It's just more interesting to talk about mmm.
And I guess if you had that thought process in a lot of things you do was the third best idea. What's the third anything that could take you places? You've never gone before great, and I do this a lot in life.
So many times I doubt myself. I'm a skeptic in the kind of original philosophical Michelle montaigne version of the word where I don't even believe a word I say so when I tell myself I want to travel I go. Hmm. Do you really don't know? I doubt it. Let me let me just prove that, you know, so I tried it whenever I hear myself Express a preference I try to shoot it down whenever
IX say that this is true and that is false. I immediately think Hmm. Is it wait? Let me think of the opposite. What if that's false in this is true. Could that be like this is this is where I get to the more interesting things. This is when I when I pick things apart, I feel like it closer to at least something interesting and maybe even something more true because lots of times like my Mona Lisa Einstein.
People the first thing that comes to mind is just some habitual thing that we've been saturated in our media exposure to just say is like a default. You know, what do you do on Mother's Day call your mother. Did you question that like did you really is that the best thing to do on Mother's Day is to send her flowers and call your mother. It would that be the most about what is the reason of that to make her feel special will isn't that about the least special thing you could do if you think about it.
You know all these picking things apart like that in doubting yourself and going past your first reaction. Yeah, that's one of my favorite things to do in life. And I actually just wrote down a line. Why do you doubt yourself? Just go there a bit in case there's something deeper so in itself because you like to second guess and question yourself, or do you doubt yourself because there's something deeper in that. I think that our
Is reveal our values much better than our words do so if you've been saying for years, I want to start a business. You've been telling anybody who will listen for years now. I want to start a business. I really want to start a business. I want to start a business, but if you haven't done it,
then I think
you'd be very wise to start ignoring your words and look at your actions, right? That's just one example, it could be I you know, I want to quit smoking. I want to this I want to that or you know, I really want a serious relationship. Okay. Well then why do you keep sleeping around with people at bars? You know, whatever. It may be your actions reveal the truth better than your words do and so that's just one one example of this because sometimes
We Echo. No, not Echo. Yeah. Okay. Sometimes we just Echo things that the people around us believe and so we just enough people around us say it's important to come up with lots of ideas. And we like the one we were just talking about and you go. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's important to come up with lots of ideas. You might find yourself just echoing something because the people around you say it but
Also, you might still be saying something that used to be true for you 10 years ago and you've just been saying it now out of habit without stopping to question if it's still true because life changes you change circumstances change the world changes you've been declaring something is true for a long time without questioning it.
It can be really useful to stop and Pull Apart in doubt everything you say if only then if you find that you deconstruct it and you attack it and you try to reverse it. And you say no actually this is still true. Okay, great. Well now you've just you've taken time to you know, take apart that machine and put the machine back together again, it's a good good proof that you still know that that machine is solid and well built right? Sorry. I was I don't know why I was just picturing a little
Gearbox somehow but yeah, that's why I think it's healthy regardless to doubt everything you say so that if it's still true, you'll you can reprove it true. But if it's not true, then now's the best time to find out. So I've got a couple of questions three. I think that a very specific for entrepreneurs, but before we go there there's a couple of things that are loitering in my head with intent. That won't leave.
Why five years and no interviews, that was very when you said that that was like, oh, I believe Derek he you know, he didn't do any what why were you know interviews for so long and also why why do you seem pretty clear that you don't want to start another company, you know, I suppose so in the maybe seeing baby was okay.
No interviews. Mmm, there's action of no. No, it's okay. I can handle it. No interviews was because I found myself being up on the metaphorical podium.
giving answers to everybody's questions and that
accidentally put me in a mindset of feeling like I had all the answers.
And I wanted to be the person with the questions not the answers. So in fact, you are the second to last interview. I am doing for a long long time. I've started saying no to all interviews again. Now, I'm doing one more again next week and then that's it for a long time because I found myself accidentally once again feeling like I had the answers. So I think that's a dangerous mindset. I'd rather yeah.
To be questioning everything than answering everything.
So the business I didn't like having all that responsibility of I had 85 employees and I didn't like that. I didn't like that. I couldn't just completely disappear later my last two years of running the business. I kind of could disappear. It was running completely without me but still like being the figurehead of the company still people kind of dumped there.
Problems on the or rather they blamed me for their unhappiness if they were unhappy and I just didn't like that responsibility. So I think I much prefer the career path or the let's say the work habits of a novelist or a painter who just makes things alone. You know, I'm just a natural introvert. I really really like Solitude. I just love doing things by myself. So this idea of having a team of people reporting to me and
all that. Mmm. I don't really want that again. And what do you feel your time with now? What does this loan pain to do with this time? I'm writing my I mean most hours I'm awake. If I'm not with my kid. I'm writing whether that's writing computer code writing my next book writing emails preparing for an interview like this. You know, it's almost always my fingers are on a keyboard.
Flying most waking hours from 6:00 a.m. To midnight, you know and I love that. That's my favorite lifestyle. Great. So great good for you. All right, Derek. I don't want you to hate me now. No, that was just my my terrible attempt to Traverse them to the next question. Actually. Let's talk about that. Now. This is a completely random one. I interviewed Jordan Belfort a couple of weeks back.
And a few people are robbed. Well, you know, you're not really engaging in a conversation. You kind of finish a question you go on to the next I'm going to tell you a little fear I have and something I've never figured out the perfect way to Traverse from one question to the other which you just lucky highlighted very well because I went great which didn't mean to sound patronizing but still if that was my attempt to move to the next question. You can't have a conversation without breathing. Can you enough? You know, I want to honor
Violence asking the questions I've got he's never waited just talking shit. I highly recommend go find a podcast called conversations with Tyler Okay. Tyler Cowen. Co wwen is an economist at George Mason University and his podcast called conversations with Tyler is so damn interesting because he gets these amazing guests.
Jean and he does a ton of research on them. Like literally he'll say that he'll do like, you know, 50 hours of research reading all of their books listening to only past Works before they're on the show and he comes prepared with the most specific questions. Right? Like he'll get a politician on and is in a say, okay everybody my guest here today is Emily such-and-such and so-and-so and here's my first question. Why is Russian ballet Superior to French ballet and she'll say wow. I'm
Is that you know that about me here's exactly why Russian ballet is French political and social answer that and he'll say what's your opinion on the food of East India vs West India and she'll say oh East India is best because duh duh-de-duh. And the reason he has these specific questions is because he did so much research. He knows that his interviewee has strong opinions on Russian versus French ballet or East versus West Indian food. And so he just Peppers them with these non sequitur questions. He
Says the one sentence question know blah blah blah blah blah leading up to it says the question lets them answer. And as soon as they answer that question, he lets fly with his next non sequitur question. It's fascinating. It's one of its one of my probably my single favorite interviewer I've ever heard so never feel bad about just jumping to the next question with no sequitur. It's a sequitur thing, you know what I mean? Hmm, and now going to try to do it.
We wanted to practice it do it is like pepper me with a few questions. Let's try it. Okay, I'm gonna do that in a minute, but we're in a place now where I know my listeners like me to go IE when I'm a bit lost. I've had so much feedback. They like that and what we've just inadvertently brought out here is what I find the hardest part of an interview, which is traversing from question to question to question to question to question to question without going all thank you.
Great, like I did, you know had you not reacting like that. We wouldn't have had this discussion. So that is the hardest part for me the hardest part in the early days. I interviewed during Yates and I was terrible just terrible. Yeah would be tell you. I don't know much more comfortable being the interviewee. I don't I think I would be pretty bad at being the interviewer. So I admire that your
Putting your ass on the line and doing this. Thank you for doing it. My pleasure. What do entrepreneurs need to stop this. I'll take this. You know, what? Okay, ask me the next four questions and let's do Rapid Fire for the next five questions Yakko. I've got a rapid fire round. So that's the easy. I can do that there. Can we do it out? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's do it. Yeah, let's let's that pinned it. Let's do my usual fee.
Finishing rapid fires because I'm good at this part. What's the best advice you've ever received? I've never received good advice. What's the worst advice you've ever received get married. What's one thing that you feel is wrong with the world that you would love to change entrepreneurs thinking of themselves. First the most common question I've ever heard in a podcast is what advice would you give your younger self?
So what advice would you give your 75 year old self?
drink laxatives
If there's one person you think I should interview alive on this planet, who would it be Bjork this podcast has the word disruptive in it disruptive entrepreneur. What does the word disruptive mean to you that we should all stop repeating.
I survived I survived. I don't know what Rick it's funny. I never really questioned that were disruptive. Well, then what is rupt ofthat? What if we're dissing it if it's the opposite of reputable what is relative, huh? That's a fun one. But what about the do you want to ask me what do modern entrepreneurs need to stop doing? Yeah. That was the one I was trying to ask you that times Derek thinking of themselves first.
First you want to ask me. Why don't you need a business plan or Big Ideas? Do you want to take the interview Derek? Well, you have this this question that you emailed me and Vance about why don't you need a business plan or big ideas and I sat with that one for a while and I thought well, wait, why do you like? Why does anybody think that they need this? I think it's that's just become one of these little things that that people say. Mmm we need but I don't think we would have come to it naturally just like for example, I don't think anybody in
Nature would have decided that midnight is when it becomes the next day, right? Like that's a very contrived thing that someone somewhere came up with midnight. That's when the next day begins. No, nobody would ever say that this moment when the sky is black and it's now still black. That's the next day. So to me the creating a business is just like being a public servant right? I said that before it's when you're here to serve. It's like you're kind of asking the world. What do you need? How can I help? I'm at your service. What?
What can I do and you don't need a business plan to be a public servant that wouldn't even enter your head. I don't think but people jealous that we need it. So I think that's just a weird thing that we hear from others. That isn't true. You want to ask me about the one thing you need to do to get anything you want you making it live really easy for me. I was going to come back to these ones Eric if you don't mind like this one a little bit deeper.
Okay, because you but then we rushed it. What do entrepreneurs need to stop doing good bit deeper on yeah. Um, so what I said is they need to stop thinking of themselves first and I didn't really boil it down like that until in 2015. They were re-releasing my book from 2011 called anything you want which Seth Godin published it in 2011 on his little
Publishing company in 2015. He sold it to penguin. So they re-released it and they wanted a blurb for the inside cover and they they wrote something for me. They said something like really what it all comes down to is Follow Your Passion now, where are you? Oh God. No, no, no, no no Follow Your Passion. Uh, no, that's not the point of the book at all and they said okay then what do you want us to put there because we want to put something there I went.
All right. What is it all really come down to?
And I had to ponder this, you know, this is going to get printed in my book like right there on the back cover. So I thought about it and the best answer I got was generosity that I think the thing at least especially for a small business, but at any business the thing that separates the really appealing businesses from those that aren't is generosity.
That if you're running a business, you're already probably luckier than most people in the world just right there alone by that fact alone, right so you can afford to be generous and I think the businesses that stand out even if it's just one person providing a service business is your generosity it's doing more than is necessary. It's the opposite of being greedy.
And I find that the businesses that we detest is when they're putting their own needs above ours. And if I had to boil it down to one single thing, you know question, like what do entrepreneurs need to stop doing. I think it's that one thing is stop thinking of your themselves. Stop thinking of yourself first. If you put your client's needs above your own so that you might even take a loss on this sale or whatever. That's
The best thing you could do.
Your book is it called anything you want? Yes. Yeah and is the one thing?
You need to do to get anything you want generosity or is there something else have you already answered that question? No, I think the best thing you can do to get anything you want is to want much much less.
And I'm not just being a Taoist do it on the top of a mountain saying that I've been thinking about a lot lately with our you know, we're in May twenty twenty now recording this with the whole covid-19 situation and I've been thinking about worst-case scenarios a lot, which is got me thinking a lot about the minimum. I need to be happy. So in in four weeks, I'm moving and I'm not sure where I'm moving to in fact. I'm not sure what country I'm moving to but in
Weeks I'm moving and so it's got me thinking about. Well, what do I really need to be happy and I came up with just four things. You know, I need quiet a decent temperature where I'm not sweating you're freezing. I need to be near nature so I can go out for a walk and I need somewhat of a view not like, you know top of a mountain but something that's not just looking at the wall next to me 10 feet out my window. Those are the only four things I
We need to be happy because if I have that well, then I can flourish in my own everything on top of that is not really necessary. So we realize like once again, I've done this so many times in my life. I'm lowering and lowering and lowering what I need to be happy so that everything on top of that just feels like an extra bonus and I did that with money long ago. Like I was at the age of 22, I had saved up $12,000 which to
I meant I was rich because my cost of living at the time was $800 a month. So at this point I could quit my job. I wouldn't have to work for indefinitely because I was making about $1,000 a month and spending $800 a month. I was like there I'm done. I'm all set and I've just tried to keep my needs low at all times. So yeah how to get anything you want is to just think deeply about what you really want and then, you know try to want the littlest possible.
I've been talking to a lot of entrepreneurs through this lockdown and I meant or quite a lot of people and one of the things I think that's been common in them is that they've sort of somewhat expected similar results now.
Enough said to them wait a minute. The world is completely changed in the last eight weeks the fact that you're still here. And if you're making any money, that's bloody amazing. Well done you yes, I don't think people are that good myself included adjusting expectations for the environment or the situation, you know, there are but six months ago, I made a plan and I'm not there. Well, no, but look what happened? Yeah, and I am a big fan in I'm
not the same in that listening to you. They're coming fascinated because I don't have this minimum viable happiness thing which I'm going to look into I'm going to challenge myself because I'm surrounded by stuff very expensive stuff and I'm just different and I can't get caught in the Trap of Lamborghinis and Ferraris and you know everything else but I try and I own them but not but say if you took it all from me today, I'd be cool with that as well. So I'm trying to get the best of you Joy.
Look at it see which is sorry to interrupt but that's actually if you read a stoicism. That's what they originally prescribed. They said. Yeah, go ahead own wonderful. Nice things. You should just don't get too attached to them. But yeah don't deny yourself. The pleasures have all the pleasures just know that they might disappear at any time. Yeah, and that be attached to it. And this is really important know what your pleasures are.
Because I think for example, I have a record player like you could take my Lamborghini you could probably take my children. You just can't take my record. I just can't really love my record player. Yeah, and I'll spend money on that because I love that thing and but that, you know, the the sound of the music that comes through that in the emotion of that makes me feel I think maybe I've got older that's why I've learned to learn to know what gives me pleasure not because someone says it does supposed to yeah.
But I do like this idea that you've put in my head of I know you didn't say minimum viable happiness, but it almost is I'm require those things. Yeah. So yeah so bit with this lockdown, I just think if you reset your expectations, like for example, it's been beautiful weather for seven weeks. It's just not really been any really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, like someone someone we're Beyond this has been helping us out.
So so I think being able to be agile in in adjusting your expectations to the environment in the situation. I think that'll stop a lot of this, you know mental health and the constant Chase and the stress that there is with a lot of entrepreneurs. Yeah. Yeah. So what areas outside of business have taught you the most inside of business?
What was that a good Transit Traverse between their there was pushing I don't have a good answer for this. Unfortunately. The best I could think of is psychology because again, you know, I my whole take on business is no business is not business plans. It's not Financial plans. It's not spreadsheets. It's not profit and loss statements business is just serving people serving individuals. That's my whole personal perspective on this.
- that's what business is to me. It's serving individuals. So the only thing I can think of that really applies then is psychology, but it can be the psychology of kind of mean isn't it? All psychology really? I mean marketing as so much as psychology, you know, sometimes the psychology of pricing it was fascinating to learn that people given a placebo pill.
And told the told that it's an expensive medication actually concretely felt more relief from their pain and symptoms than people who were told that this Placebo pill was cheap that just people who paid more money for tickets were more likely to attend the show these things are fascinating of the psychology of pricing the psychology of where you fit into the marketplace and the friendliness of your tone versus you're standoffish.
Listen, How Some people prefer the standoffish - and they aspire to be in the luxury crowd and God. Yeah, it's all psychology. So yeah, I guess I said I didn't have an answer. I guess I did
psychology.
Love it, but no one, you know I said I didn't have an
answer because that's not surprising. It feels like a non-answer to me because it's just so
obvious. Mmm-hmm. Was there anything that you held as Truth for a long time, but recently changed your mind
on? Oh God. Yeah. Hmm. I want to travel. I want to live in a multicultural City. I want a dog.
The thing we said earlier about how like the things I've been saying. I want four years must be the things I want to most when in fact, I think I'm realizing those must be things. I don't actually want if I've been saying it for years. The best school is what's best for my kid minimalism means bringing nothing nothing with me when I move I thought that up until a few days ago. I like having smart and famous friends. Yeah. Those are those are seven off the top of my
head.
And do you think that do you think they've changed for good temporarily changed or you've just challenged the fact that you held the mistruths,
you know, I think every one of those things I just said I was giving you the previous version where it was true. And now I believe the exact opposite. So for a long time I said, I want a dog and now I do not want a dog for a long time. I said, I want to travel now I do not want to travel granted as you can hear in some of these Erza Common Thread is a lot of these are
Recent 2020 changes, you know travel and living in a big Multicultural city was a lot more appealing five months ago. Now it's not and so five months ago. I would have said that those are two very very essential things. I'd very much value those those are the top of my list of important things now unlike mmm kind of tore it apart picked it apart and said do I really want it even travel? I've kind of ripped that one apart. I used to think that I really
to get on a plane and go to places and now I'm thinking that not just because of Corona that I think actually what I want to do is learn about places and I think that physically getting on a plane and visiting can be a bit of a red herring or a placebo in itself that makes you think that you've understood this place because you've walked around and smelled it but maybe actually having one-on-one conversations with people from that place and watching the top five films from that place and reading for books about that place.
And learning some of the language.
You might spend the same number of hours doing that as you would walking around the marketplace and looking at the place and you'd learn much more from the former than the latter. So yeah each one of the things I said, I feel like I feel the opposite now, you know, so up until recently I thought that it was really important or I really loved having smart and famous friends. Um, and then just recently realized that now to me that's I like having
Famous acquaintances. I like having smart and famous conversationalists but friends is a different category that's about emotional trust and emotional intimacy and I just realized recently that no true friendship is it's almost purely emotional. I don't care what somebody's achieved in their life or how book smart. They are. It's all about like your emotional trust with somebody that would that's what makes a real friendship the most smart intellectual interesting famous person if
You don't feel an emotional safety with that person isn't really a friend then they're an acquaintance there a conversationalist. So and I could sorry I'm diving into each one. He didn't ask me to but there you go.
That's right. I'm glad it didn't it was nice to hear you talk about it. I'd actually written smart and famous because that did fascinate me because I've only recently maybe in the last three years started to get very famous friends and that she I could name three people who are very famous in this country and
I really like them. I really like them more than people have held for many years as friends. So I've had almost the opposite. Well,
yeah, I find that a lot too. Sometimes is that you
if you like it's a truism that I started rejecting a while back that are your old friends are your best friends because often - and that I was changing so often and moving so often that I had almost nothing in common with my old friends anymore. Where's my new friends? The one that I'm meeting in my new situation? Well, this is this is the current me. This is I can relate more to the new friends I've made than the old friends see I get that
and then the travel thing so I've
Really been into trouble just be really quick do it because this is obviously not about me but it is an idea. I'd like to Chuck by you because I think the way you think you might be able to wrap your head around it, but you know what four years when I lived in Peterborough everyone used to talk about leaving the place like there was something wrong with the place like life's going to be better when you leave but then they go to Australia or they go to London or they go to wherever and then they're always traveling moving away from place to place and always thought what
If you you know be happy in Peterborough first, and then maybe we have in London or Sydney, but the fantasy that London or Sydney or another city with all of its culture and Cosmopolitan and an art and music scene. Whatever else well, maybe you haven't seen what your own city has got no I was I felt tied here Derek but not restricted. I felt tied here because I did not want to go away and come back in 10 years and my dad is gone.
Did not I wanted to see if I do any of that stuff is after my dad has gone because you know, I've still got him but he's been prettier than stuff and I fired, you know, we've been here 17 years and I love it here like I could never I could never leave her love my house. I love them in the middle of everything and these two our walks we were talking about before the recording went on and I found all these these places and roots in Peterborough. Never knew existed some beautiful places the river that I've never seen walk down the
The whole river never seen. Yeah, and isn't it amazing how we can live somewhere not see it and always want to be somewhere else, but we can't see what's beautiful about where we are. That's something I've come to be true recently.
I think a lot of people's travel desire is to try on being different versions of themselves. I think we all have different aspects.
In our personality different selves inside ourself. And so I think people want to see like could I be a New Yorker? Let me go to New York and see how I feel in New York. Let's let's let the New York side of my personality come out and see how that feels not so much. I think I'm going to go live in the Australian Outback for a year and see how that Crocodile Hunter.
Her side of myself comes out, you know, okay, not so much. What if I were to live in Paris and the oso Continental, you know, whatever. It may be. I think people want to they want to try on these different aspects of their personality and sometimes it really does click, you know, like somebody from the middle of Iowa might visit Italy and go. Oh, this is the real me. Actually I'm speaking. I'm thinking of a specific person.
Really? Well and one of my old best friends at the age of 19 went from the middle of America to Italy and just like never came back. She's like this. This is where I was meant to be and she's just been in Italy ever since she's a fluent in Italian. She hasn't been to America in 20 years and it's like that's that was her place. She needed to make that switch and this now feels like the real her God. I left America 10 years ago, and I hope to never go back. It doesn't feel like
Like my place anymore. But yeah, I could see that it could also be the fact that like somebody bounces around the world and then finally comes back home and appreciates what they left. A lot of new zealanders do that actually a lot of new zealanders. You know, New Zealand's like paradise right where it's like you grew up in paradise and then at the age of 20, they just have to get out they have to just go see the rest of the world because it's his isolated island in the Pacific. So they go out they go into the rest of the world. They actually call it OE in New Zealand which
Overseas experience everybody calls it, you know go to your OE and then at the age of 30, they come back to have kids and then they just stay so it ends up just being this like little journey that you make to go know yourself a little better and maybe maybe make you appreciate home even more. So you already appreciated Peterborough, but a lot of people don't appreciate their home until they've gone away and realize oh relative to these glorified places.
It's actually more awesome, you know
something still fascinating me Derrick is your five years and I podcasts how to look on your what I'm doing now website recently. And it said you were spending about one to three hours a day doing people's podcasts. And now I'm your pain Ultima podcast and then there's going to be one more and then there's no podcast again. I don't know why I've come back to this question three times. It is fascinating me. So when you're in the flow of
Casting and doing you know, quite a lot of interviews. Why were you doing them? And what are you getting out of them?
At first? I didn't know at first. I just literally had a list of like a hundred eighty people who had asked me to be on their podcast and I would say no to every single one and then I just put a little tick in my database next to this person saying here's somebody who wants to interview me and as that, let's keep growing it was you know, a few times a week I was saying no, so I just thought all right. It's been 5 years. Maybe I should start.
To do this now, but I didn't really know why I mean you can tell I'm not here promoting anything but as I've gotten into it, I think that the questions that you ask me are great writing prompts. Yeah, the kinds of things that you you asked me by email the kind of things that other people ask me I dig into them a lot and sometimes I accidentally spilled
Like 5 hours preparing questions, which I mean preparing answers, which doesn't mean word for word answers. I mean just thinking through this subject like somebody yesterday said what is your definition of success? I'm going huh?
I never thought about that. What is my definition of success and I literally sat there for like two hours writing on that subject. What is my definition of success and best thing I came up with is success is whatever makes you feel proud. That's it, but it took me two hours to get there. So they've been great writing prompts that have made me think of things. So that's why I think I will continue doing them. But right now I just need to take a little break because my third book is
Finished in some other programming I'm doing his unfinished because I'm spending hours a day doing this stuff and not doing that. So I just need to get my priorities straight again for a bit and I will continue doing these again hmm
something I personally believe people get a lot wrong.
Is the definition of Happiness hmm hassle because I feel like people are looking for happiness to be contentment.
And there's a lot about doing less and minimalism and I feel like that is against human nature of evolution and striving for growth and progress rain and I have this Paradox going on and I'm sorry. I hadn't sent it to you before Derek to prepare, but it I'm still wrestling with it. But so many people I just want my kids to be happy. I think that's one of the worst ways to ways to raise your kids her.
Because how they're going to be independent if they don't go through challenge, right? Are they going to be disciplined if that you don't actually put them through stuff? They don't like how they're going to get sense of growth and achievement are not saying they have to be Superstars.
So I don't feel like the golden raising the kids is for them to be happy. I feel like the goal in raising kids is to show them what the world is really like for when they go into it. Hmm. I know parenting expert I'm trying to I think about this lot and I'm talking about see Derek but I can honestly say my greatest sense of happiness is virtually immediately after one of my worst experiences in my life IE when things are the hardest to worst, you know that I'm in the most pain. I'm the most challenged and then when you eat
Overcome it. Succumb it get rid of it that feeling of this feels amazing of what I when I brought the the world record for the longest public speech. I just did that thing in. Well, I can talk but it nearly killed me and my voice went and it was the hardest thing I've ever done and afterwards I felt such Elation and I thought for everyone or just thinks happiness is contentment you're missing this.
You're missing what we're supposed to do as human beings which is to strive and to grow and to evolve and you know, and and I just think there's so much out there about happiness is contentment and being and I can't buy it. I can't get my head around it and I it's a paradox and what your thoughts on a direct what is happiness
deep happy versus shallow happy and you just described it perfectly.
That I like the way that to me shallow happy is what you call contentment deep happy is what you described as after your long speech and I love the fact that I have been teaching my kid about this since he was like two or three years old and just you know, like just he's only been talking for a year and I say, well, you know that's deep happy versus shallow happy needs to keep happy versus yellow happy. What does that mean?
This is like well shallow happy is when you just eat the ice cream and I said deep happy is when you invent your own flavor of ice cream and you can you give ice cream to everybody in your neighborhood and it makes you really happy. I said that's deep happy and he said but I don't like ice cream I said, okay. Well, let me think of another example, and I said D Pappy is when you do something difficult.
halt
you set out to do something difficult and then you do it and you're really really deeply happy because you've done something difficult. You're really proud of yourself and that one got and and I said it's a little sad to me. Is it a lot of people just focus on being shallow happy and they don't know how good it feels to be deep happy.
So a lot of people just eat the ice cream and they just watch TV and they don't know deep happy and it was amazing. Is that even at like 2 years old? I Ki kind of got it and I kind of forgot about it, right but then a month later he came to me and said he'd add a new kid came to our school today and I told him about deep happy versus shallow happy, but yes,
he remembered and I said, what did you tell
him? And he kind of echoed it back to me. He said
I told him that anybody can be shallow happy that's easy. That's just doing something fun. But deep Happy's when you do something difficult. And then you do it you would you finish it. I was like, oh, that's so nice to hear. So anyway, I think about that a lot that oh, I heard another nice way to put it. It's what you want now versus what you want most.
That one really stuck with me. I can't remember what random book I read that from but what I want now versus what I want most. So to me shallow happy is just doing what I want. Now D Pappy is doing what I want most. No, that's my take on it.
So what I love talking to you why I love talking to you in these 90 minutes. We've had Derek and when I listen to your podcast and followed some of your stuff is
You always find a way of saying things with the story an analogy or a more articulate the way than is rattling in my brain. So I'm very privileged to be your penultimate podcast for a long while I feel sad and I hope that maybe one day we may do this again or start our paths may cross in some way.
I know you said you don't come on this podcast from a promotion, but I really would love to for people to be able to get your book and be able to follow you where you want them to follow you if you want them to follow you and totally respect if you don't want to give you anymore,
nobody follow me get away from me.
I'm not a big as team. So you won't have that same problem. But but you're you know, the you've done two books. Have you already?
Yeah, I guess I've written three. I'm writing my Forest but
One is out there today, depending on when this hits the are my next to might be out. So yeah, it's my book in 2011. I did for Seth Godin was called anything you want. That one's very out there. My next book coming out is a for musicians and it's called your music and people but for example that like speed Punk country metal the you know, hey, motherfucker, you know, that was a story from that book from your
And people which friend of mine that's a real marketer guy. He said meant you know you saying that this is a book for musicians, but to this is a book about marketing and positioning. I was like if you want it if you can read it metaphorically, that's great. Go for it. Because you know, there's some people who know how to read metaphorically, you know, they can read a book like the inner game of tennis and apply tennis lessons to their life, right? So you might find your music and people interesting even
You're not a musician and you can read metaphorically and then my next one after that is called helya or know which is really just a collection of my best articles from 10 years. And then my third book that I'm still writing right now. I'm so damn excited about is called how to live and yeah, I'm not done writing it so we don't need to talk about that. But those are my books and if you go to sivir's dot-org SIV ERS Dot o-- r-- g--
that is me everything I do is there and yeah just follow me there. I actually my email address is still widely out in the public, you know, as you can there's a contact page with my email address in a Big Font. So yes, please send me an email and introduce yourself because that is one of my favorite
Parts Derek. I'd love to stay on Toko die. I'm really grateful to you. I've really enjoyed this. It was everything. I'd hoped it to be on a little bit more food challenged. Thank you very grateful.
Thanks, brother. I really appreciate
it.
