Welcome to the show. I'm Jordan Harbinger. As always. I'm here with producer Jason to Phillip low on the Jordan Harbinger show. We decode the stories secrets and skills of the world's most brilliant and interesting people and turn their wisdom and to practical advice that you can use to impact your own life. And those around you I want to help you see the Matrix when it comes to how these amazing people think and behave I want you to become a better thinker. That's what strengthens your life your career your business your family the Democracy. We live in if you're new to the show.
So we've got episodes with spies and CEOs athletes and authors thinkers and performers as well as tool boxes for skills, like negotiation public speaking body language persuasion and more. So if you're smart and you like to learn and improve then you're going to be right at home here with us on this episode of the show Simon sinek. This guy's just a force you've seen them everywhere on the Ted stage ranting about Millennials or Consulting some of the top companies in the world on business strategy and Spitting Fire about fulfillment and culture in the workplace today.
Simon sinek, like you've never heard him before we really cut loose on this one and broke the mold of leadership and corporate topics diving deep into subjects like trust Focus branding and the way that we look at our careers and our business as an extension of ourselves. If you don't have a business this will still apply to your career. If you don't have a career, we'll figure it out. If you're a Simon sinek fan and even if you're not I know you're gonna dig this one and if you want to know how I managed to book all these great people and have people like Simon sinek on speed dial. Well, it's about systems. It's about
tiny habits and it's about making and maintaining relationships in a way. That's not frankly awkward weird and needy. I'm teaching you how to do that for free. That's it. Six minute networking. It's a free course over at Jordan Harbinger.com / course, and by the way, most of the guests on the show, they subscribe to the course and the newsletter. Come join us. You'll be in great company now, here's Simon sinek.
At some point every speaker writes a lot of books. I don't know if you consider yourself a
speaker and author more or both or is it like thought leaders some sort of nebulous third category, but I would never call myself that good. Okay, that's a liked. I prefer to
Guru Guru. Yes. Yes Guru like a groom from the yoga thing or the guy who founded a city. I
think I love that when people call themselves Guru and their own borrows his like, I think the whole point of being a guru is you'd actually don't call yourself a guru. Yeah. Yeah. No, I consider myself an
Just I believe that I'm I have a vision of the world that does not yet exist and I'm trying to build it and whatever it takes for me to advance that Vision speaking writing teaching whatever it is. I'll do it. So I don't Define Myself by anything that I do by the median. No, I don't Define Myself by who I am and where I'm going. I
spent years doing that that like it's easy and people go you're a podcaster and it's like well that sounds really lame, but it's also kind of true just as you're an author but it's not all that you are
right. It's one thing that I do and it's one thing that I do.
By accident, you know, I don't plan on being an author. I wasn't one of those guys is like I've got a book in me, you know. Oh really? No never I'm surprised to hear that. It wasn't an aspiration from youth or anything like that. I had an idea and somebody thought I needed to write it down. And so I did
yeah. I heard can't remember who told me that it was like, oh, yeah, she discovered Simon sinek and I was like, I wonder if he would agree with that. I can't remember who
it was though. So this story kind of falls on its face or the anecdote code like he
wasn't if I remember I will send you an e-mail because I can't it wasn't something I was there
many.
Who gave me brakes? Sure, there's no I don't think there's anyone it was somebody who basically
had said this guy's got to go to Ted and like but this is someone else's version of events to write. So it may or may not have happened that
I mean, I don't know. I mean, I was given the opportunity to speak at a tedx. I'm very grateful for it and the tedx video became the highest watch tedx video on YouTube, which is I think what a caught the attraction of the Ted people at least that's how I understand. You didn't start off at 10:00. No, I I only talked to Ted on the main stage few years ago for the first
First time really this shocking it's a tedx and I love it because you know people especially, you know, Ted can make a career. I mean I'm living proof of it, you know, it can be a catalyst for a career in a major way. And so when people go on and do a Ted or tedx, you know, you can feel it. The tension is palpable because they think it's make or break and they want it to be perfect and they have everything rehearsed and everything and I'm living proof that I have terrible video quality terrible. Audio quality my microphone broke in the at the beginning of the talk.
Look, I've got a pad and pen and no PowerPoint and it became at one point. It was the second most watched Ted Talk of all time. And my point is is like if you have good content, you have good content. Yeah, it doesn't matter if it's rough and tumble. It doesn't matter if the sound quality is imperfect, you know people when ideas it's nice if it works out nicely but it's not
essential that's such a lucky break in so many ways and I don't mean that you didn't earn it what I mean is how great is it to go out there and go it's just a tedx. I'll be fine. Oh the mic broke whatever its it doesn't really matter and then that blows up not okay.
Pirate prepared for this for 90 days been rehearsing. It hours a day cost me 60 grand for a speaking coach full time. Then you're five minutes late or something or the events a little offer the microphones glitching out and you're freaking out right? I
think what made it work was that I didn't freak out. I mean, you literally replaced my mic in the middle of my talk with I'm using a wireless mic which the signal is getting interrupted. Yeah, and somebody comes up and hands me a wired mic in the middle and you don't hear me go um, or hold on ladies and gentlemen.
Hold his mics not working. I'm in the middle of a sentence. I think the new Mike and I just keep talking and I think that's one of the reasons it works is my mind is really focused on spreading the message and I'm not getting stuck in the in the mindtrap of my God. This is going horribly wrong and my God, what am I going to do? My you know, and so you just in stride, but I gave a talk once with a fire alarm went off in the middle of my talk and we all stopped and we like what you're not going anywhere ladies and gentlemen, this is important actually and then, you know, I stopped by
Yeah, I figured out what happened. And then I started again. I see it on the stage a lot where I see the speaker complaining about something or talking about something or interrupting because what's bothering them. They think is bothering the audience right and it's just not true and nobody know what bothers us on the stage really doesn't bother the audience ladies and gentleman, really. Sorry. I have a cold. Nobody really cared. They can hear that. You have a cool, right? We just thought you were a nerd with a nasal good they can hear that you're sniffling that your sinuses are clogged they can hear it. So I think that's a one of the big tricks of.
You know the effective public speaker, which is the audience is rooting for you. They always are and they're pretty forgiving and the more that you point out the stuff that's wrong the more it's going to go bad. Sure. The message is what matters that's why the people are there and I understand you want Perfection, but sometimes that's out of your control sure and I think that's part of what makes the really effective ones. Like I've seen it on stage before the really good ones are the ones that just it's really about the message and not about
them people have said the TED Talks there so well rehearsed that even the little
Jurors, that look like they're off the cuff are rehearsed. I know every speakers are different. But what do you think about that? Do you think a lot of these people are just really good speakers or they're so well rehearsed that even them looking to the left casually is part of their depends on this locker room. Yeah depends on the speaker. I mean
some speakers do actually rehearse every gesture every every joke, you know, and Ted is a very buttoned up operation for especially for people who don't do it professionally, but they do rehearse them like crazy. And so there's a few videos out there. I can't remember one of the late.
She has made it made a joke about giving a TED talk in it. So they take its Jesus giving a TED talk, you know and has all the tropes in it and it's uncomfortably accurate. Yeah, it's very funny. But yeah, I mean some of it is a little kid but it depends on the speaker's some speakers are more casual, you know, Ken Robinson who has the number one Ted Talk of all time being and has forever and we all worship Ken. I mean he's as good as it gets everything's real. It's all on camera. It's just how he is. It's just it's magical to watch
him when you get sort of
fated to this plane where you're like straight into the pros not that you had nothing to do with that before but like to jump to that stage. There's got to be a little bit of Self Doubt creep in at all. Are you like oh crap how the hell am I going to compete with Ken Robinson or well, I hope this goes as well as my first talk did I mean it seems like you have you're competing with yourself you're competing with other people at the top of the game. It's a little
bit and I mean, I'm not computer with Ken Robinson. I'm amazed that I get to be in the same grouping as Ken
No this I think there's an intense gratitude that I get to share the stage with these remarkable human beings who I adore and some of them have gotten to know personally and I love their work and it's a treat for me to hear them and to be included in that group is it's an honor. So that's a real treat. What about pressure from your own work going? Okay. Well, I mean like I have my good well when I got the opportunity to do the maintenance stage people were like, what are you gonna do? Yeah. I was like first of all, I won the internet lottery I didn't plan.
On the start with white talk going viral and like that wasn't like, yep check did that, you know, this is why I met somebody recently in a dinner and I asked him what he does. He says I make viral videos. I'm like how you don't you make videos and hope they go viral like freaking Christmas the whole point of a viral video. Nobody really knows how to make him. Yeah, you know, you can do videos that do okay, you know, but I don't think any videos that have truly gone viral. It wasn't machine that way sure so when I when I had the opportunity to do another Ted Talk, I was under no illusions that it was going to do as well as the first when Phil said, how are you going to do better?
First of the answer is I'm not like an insane you go and do one better. It's like it's like you it
was number two you go ahead you go be number one
sure. You can't plan that stuff. Right? And so I wasn't I had no pressure on on me to outdo. Like I said, I won the lottery it can't win the lottery again. And so what I did when I showed up for a future TED Talks is I showed up to do the best job I could do in communicate the message that I was trying to communicate as clearly as possible for that message. Yeah and let the chips fall where they may, you know, I compete with myself in the sense that I'm trying to outdo.
Do it's not a question about doing I want to hone my craft. I love feedback. I love honest feedback even more and I want to get better at what I do. I think that's not unusual. I think a lot of people have that sure any of us who show up in a daily basis you go and listen to your own podcasts and you know, you might beat yourself up a little bit but the opportunity is okay. Next time I'm going to do this differently. I'm going to do this better. You become more relaxed. You become more comfortable you develop a style. It is a little
painful, but I like I assume you watch her on talk.
And you give yourself some of them some of them some of them?
Yeah, not everything couldn't possible watch. I do
the ones that are different. I like to watch the ones that I took a risk or did something new those loans I go watch you hear about guys like David Letterman. He brought up
earlier watching every show after they do the shit like can't go to bed before they watch it and by all accounts, he would shred himself mercilessly to the point where people around him were like, hey, man, calm down, you know, he's making himself like actively miserable doing there's got to be
A happy medium there. Do you find
I look at depends on the style of the person, you know, these folks are at the top of their game because they're very very hyper critical of themselves. You know, some of the highest performers I know are very hyper critical of themselves more hypocritical of themselves on their of other people or other people can be of them. I'm probably my own worst critic for sure and I notice little things that probably other people miss, you know, I think anybody who satisfied with the job that they're doing isn't growing. I mean, I definitely had her things that I do I walk around like that was good. Like I know when it's good, but
So now when I could do
better, I think the reason I ask so many questions about this process is because looking from the outside and right people go. Well Simon sinek every book that you stamp is going to kill it every talk you give is going to kill it you do a show like impact Theory rant about Millennials possibly unplanned and then that just takes off and gets at are 18 million views or something like that because it got 80 in the first eight. Yeah 80 in the first week. I mean, all you gotta do is complain about people 35 and under and you're just getting oh, that's the new form.
Me I wasn't complaining with you point well-taken.
Right? Right. Obviously, I'm exaggerating first claims and but like that it's working laughing pop that thing pops off and then it's like this guy can't screw anything up at what point do you go hang out with me for a while, right? That's why I'm asking right because people someone came over to my house Neil pessary sure who I think you
probably know or maybe know of
he came over and he's like from the outside in you're doing so great and I'm thinking I wish I
Glimpse of what other people like I want to look at myself, like other people maybe do for like 5 minutes a day just to relax for a second, but then there's another part of myself that says well being hypercritical and beating myself up all the time is why you're here in the first place. This is why you get to go hang out with somebody who's a guru thought leader. Whatever you want to call yourself these days one of them lottery winner lottery winner double Mike each other and then just sit here and record and then like somehow a check arrives in the mail.
For doing so but it also is kind of a recipe for there's an element of I don't want to say unhappiness, but there's got to be a part of you because all right. Now I'm just torturing myself for this like you're flying around giving talks you love it. But at the same time don't you want to hang out a little bit more at home? Watch a little Netflix like the balance has to be hard. Let's in my control, isn't it? It is but also the pigmentation,
you know, when I overcome it myself I have only myself to blame sure. I've overcommitted myself and sure I'm exhausted and I'm like and I beat myself up for saying yes to too much stuff because I want to be out there.
Spreading the message. Yeah, sometimes forget that I need to recharge my batteries. Yeah, but I'm pretty good. I learned the hard way, you know, the good news is a try not to make mistakes more than ones but I learned, you know, I'm pretty good about blocking off time for me. And if I have a particularly grueling few weeks, I'll purposely take it easy, you know for a week or two. I think one of the things we can all do regardless of you have a 9 to 5 job of if you have more control of your own schedule or not is we can still build in time for ourselves. The thing that I started to do is because personal time we're going
owing to the gym or anything like that started to become flexible. It was someone's like we need to have a meeting with you and like okay, I can go to the gym tomorrow. I know Thats So me, you know, yeah and when it up happening is I got out of shape and I wasn't sleeping and things get worse and worse and worse. And so I just became much more prescriptive and much more sort of dogmatic about protecting these blocks in my calendar. So, you know at the beginning of the week, I'll put in gym time for the next two weeks and we treated it like a meeting so somebody called and said, you know, you know the assignment available the answer is no I'm sorry. He's engaged now. They don't have to know what I'm doing right? I'm
Yeah, you know is in downward dog right now, you know and he exactly right and so I started to become more like that's protected time and every now and then what I would do is I'd go into my own calendar and block up two hours that I wrote do not schedule anything and it was just time that I wanted to do whatever I want to do with it was watch TV or go for a walk or catch up on some errands and just like take the dry cleaning in kind of thing. You know, it was just time for me to catch up but I became really really dogmatic that these times were not to be changed or moved. Of course, there are always exceptions and again,
You waiting circumstances, but for the most part I'm pretty good about it. And I think we can all do that. You know, when you come home to your family, I think you know, especially if you have kids and stuff, you know to actively turn off the telephones for an hour to play with the kids or have dinner with the family I think is a big deal. If the time for you is eight to nine o'clock at eight to ten o'clock at night where you know, you just want to sit down and watch television and just be like, ah, you know to literally put it in a calendar and be like that's TV time. That's my TV time. I don't answer emails. Yeah and
I became really good at that and less guilty. I felt less guilty about it. You know, I think one of the problems with technology is I remember when cell phones were just starting to show up in a proper way is smartphones and right not like not like the big extended exactly the hello sell sell, you know, there was this great promise that we could leave the office because of this device and in reality it backfired is we don't leave the office the office comes with us, right? We're always at the office, you know because of the device and so this is the whole idea sort of backfired and one of the
Things that happens when we take the office with us is if we're not constantly engaging in checking in we actually feel guilty that we're not yeah, right, of course like and so what ends up happening is there's no blank time. You know, you're walking to the subway you're on the device. If you're off the subway going to the office you're on the device you we take the phone with us to the bathroom, you know, well, yeah, we do you hold it in and look for the phone. You know, that's there's something I'll be about that. You know, it's and I think when we're not
We actually feel guilty and the reality is is that ideas don't happen when we're connected ideas happen. When our minds have an opportunity to wonder are conscious brains are thinking parts of our brains have access to the equivalent of something like 2 feet of information around us. This is the part of the brain we access when we makassar expertise or the wait repeat that one more time. Our conscious brains are thinking brains and have access to the equivalent of information to about 2 feet of information around. Oh I see so you like a diameter of 2 feet is about how much information the conscious brain can store got it? Okay, and you'll see it's an
analogy. Yeah.
It's coming. It's coming. I'm with you. It's
coming. This is the part of the brain we access when we weigh the pros and cons and we think through an idea but our subconscious brain has access to the equivalent of 11 acres of information, right every conversation. We've had every movie we've seen every book we read get stored somewhere. We just can't recall it. We just can't pull it up when we want to and this is why we have our great ideas in the shower when we're driving when we're out for a run when we're just going for a walk because the brainstorming session actually isn't the time to solve the problem. The brainstorming session is the time to ask the question your subconscious brain.
Won't solve a problem for something. You're not thinking about it will attempt to solve something for problem. You really facing or an idea you really have it's not going to just start thinking of random things, you know, and so if we don't allow that part of the brain to wonder literally wa and wo when we go for a wonder I told our brain to wonder we don't have those innovative ideas and there's a reason for in the shower on the run in bed, you know, whenever your ideas strike it's because you're not actually actively thinking about anything else and so when
I learned about this it became really important to me. I mean, I'm in the idea business it became really really important to me to allow my brain to not think but to wonder and so I will schedule time specifically not to engage them not to be on my phone and I think like sitting in a restaurant with a friend goes to the bathroom not to pick up my phone while I'm waiting but just to like look around the room. Is it time to allow my brains like
they're Psychopaths. Just sitting there drinking York. I
wouldn't call it psycho.
I'd
call it life before cell phones sure, you know for Millennia we were looking at the restaurant while our friends are in the bathroom is only the past 15 years that we haven't been you know, yeah, very often. I won't even take a phone with me when I go out, especially when I'm with out with friends because I want to be totally present but it's actually great for ideas. And so allowing ourself. These disengage times is absolutely essential for Innovation. It's absolutely essential for problem solving. It's absolutely essential for creativity to disengage with the device because it'll the problem is I don't know when it's going to happen.
Happen so I'm be like, well, I wasn't on my phone for a whole hour and I had no ideas. I know I get it and this is the problem. It has to be a repetitive Behavior because we don't know when the inspiration strikes. So one of the things that I try to be good at is figuring out how I think figuring out where my ideas come from and trying to repeat those things. So form ideas are happening in showers have longer shout right Justin waste and water like crazy, but it's good for
business, but there's a difference between the
shower and a five minute shower. Yeah, you know, it's doesn't mean you standing there for an hour and a half when I was writing leaders.
I would have so many ideas in the shower or when I was brushing my teeth, for example, and I would forget them as quickly as I had them that I kept a dry erase marker in my bathroom and I wrote on the tiles and so soon as I got out of the shower while I was brushing my teeth. I'd write an ID on the tile and so when I was standing there the next day brushing my teeth, I'd be staring at my writing on the tile and I sometimes have another idea and so you look like a beautiful mind. It was
ridiculously. Yeah, I was going to say your bathroom. My bathroom
was covered all the tiles had these little chicken scratches all over and I don't want to raise any of them because I didn't know what ideas were going to
A spark but my point is is like if you figure out what works for you do that. Keep a notebook by your bed. If you go for a run and take a notebook with you. I usually carry a notebook on the back of my pocket at all times because I don't know when I'm going to have an idea and I like I said, I lose them as quickly as I have them and so the whole idea of disengaging and capturing the ideas is I think a big part of where ideas come from.
You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Simon sinek. We'll be right back.
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There's something to this of course and there's science behind all of this. Yes. I'm wondering if the is the two feet 11 acres thing. Is that something you just kind of like plucked ours. That is they're actually kind of
I heard I heard it. It's only heard it from a reputable Source. Okay, that's good enough. That's good enough for now. Yeah, I have a friend and I'm so envy him. He's so good at remembering his like Yale conducted a study in 1974 by dr. Rogers and Doctor, you know Smith and they studied this and what they discovered is that there's a, you know, an 18 to 2 ratio.
You know and I'm like they did a study like, you know, they who do all the
studies they Google it. It might be.
You know, the numbers are about right. That's that's me. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. You know and that's that should be good enough.
Although yeah now with everybody sort of making things up as we go
along. It's more important to know that I'm also I do pride myself on the fact that I do actually go double-check these big sure and even though I can't remember the details it's and if it's a if I'm wrong I'll go immediately change it. Oh sure a couple of times. I got it.
Couple things wrong and I immediately stopped even though the wrong one really helped my argument. Yeah, and like when you write a book There's real rigor to writing a book and I have to go find all the exact studies that I've been, you know quoting approximately four years. Sure. So yeah, I'm really envious of my friends who can remember every detail of these studies
speaking of friends that elevate our game worthy rival. Yeah. I love that
one. It's so good, right it is because I feel like we
all have these worthy Rivals. Sometimes we
Treat them. Can you go over the concept really briefly so people
so so James cars a philosopher who used to teach at NYU for many years. He's 87 now. He's an amazing guy. He theorized in 1986. He wrote a little book about these two types of games finite games and infinite games finite game is defined as known players fixed rules and an agreed upon objective baseball football. There's a beginning middle and end the goal is to win and if there's a winner there has to be a loser right then you have an infinite game and infinite game is defined as known and unknown.
Players the rules are changeable which means you can play however you want there's no referees and the objective is to perpetuate the game to stay in the game as long as possible. We are players and infinite games every day of Our Lives. These are games that have no Finish Line, right? There's no agreed upon metrics. There's no agreed upon rules. There's no greater pain timeframes and no such thing as winners and losers like you can't be the winner in your marriage. You can definitely be the loser. Yeah cannot be the winner. Yeah. Good point. There's no such thing is winning career like no one is declared the winner of careers. There's no such thing as winning global politics, and there's no
Thing is winning business. There's the winner of business, right? But if we listen to people they talk about being number one being the best and beating their competition based on what right what we're number one based on the metrics and the time frames of your own choosing. Yeah. And even if you are number one, the only number one for now, right? Yeah, it doesn't last right because it's an infinite game. There's no Finish Line, right the game just keeps going and going and so when we view the other players as competitors, it's a finite mind set because that means we want to beat them because that's what competitors before. I want to be the winner. I want them to be the loser.
Right, which is very unhealthy in games that have no Finish Line's like a career is like in business because when into happenings we look for shortcuts our perspective become shorter and shorter time frames and it ends up hurting trust cooperation and
Innovation. Yeah, people will sacrifice their integrity to get ahead short term, but then it's like, well, you have to keep
the hell you make a substandard product or rest of it, you know, we see play it out all the time. You know, we seeing playing out right now with Boeing right that was nothing short of short-term pressure that made the makes
But decisions, right? They were obsessed with making their numbers rather than obsessed with making the safest airplane in the sky terrifying. Yeah. No it is terrifying but that's how it plays out and it's a whole series of events that take place including ethical fading all the rest of it where pressure put on somebody put pressure put on somebody put pressure on somebody adding in unhealthy incentive structures you end up with decisions being made all over the place that allow for this to happen leaders are responsible for that environment. The Bucks does stop somewhere and that's at the
top. Is it the leader responsible for the environment?
Or is it like hashtag capitalism?
Right not hashtag capitalist. Okay, that's absolutely nonsense. You know, I think there's nothing wrong with capitalism. There is something wrong with the form of capitalism that we practice now capitalism is Adam Smith envisioned. It is the capitalism that Thomas Jefferson believed in which is the capitalism that made America what it is today. It's only the since about the 1970s that capitalism is become bastardized capitalism has always been about the people it's always been about the consumer. It's only recently since the late 1970s a theory was proposed of shareholders.
Which was popularized in the 80s and 90s by people like Jack Welch the CEO of GE. That's a new idea. Shareholder Supremacy, Adam Smith could never have imagined that the idea of putting profit before a human being that's a new idea. The idea of using mass layoffs to balance the books on a regular basis didn't exist prior to the 1980s and all these didn't exist didn't exist. Huh? So all of these insane ideas like Rank and yank where you promote the top 10% of performers and fire the bottom 10% every year. These are new ideas that will know that we're really popularized in promoted in the boom years of the
80s and 90s so people are blaming capitalism, which is incorrect. It's this form of capitalism that I think is the problem and the champions of this form of capitalism like Jack Welch and his disciples that is the problem but capitalism isn't the problem. It's the form of capitalism. So the concept of you know, viewing other companies or other individuals as competitors is really unhealthy. I mean if you have a competitor at work, it means your will undermine them so that you can improve your sales numbers so you can get the bonus like that's that excite you work for the same organization.
And some companies some leaders actually promote internal competition which are which is really bad for the organization. So I like the term rival and some of the rivals are worthy of comparison. They're worthy Rivals and a worthy rival is another player in the game whose strength reveal to you your weaknesses, right? In other words. They're really good at something that makes you so uncomfortable. Sometimes even angry then you want to beat them that you hate them. Sometimes you have visceral responses, but in reality it's because they're revealing something uncomfortable and it's easier to take that on.
Comfortable energy and directed at them rather than looking at your something. We've all had the experience where somebody we worked with at work got a promotion and we got mad. Yeah. Think about that for a second. We're getting angry at somebody else's Good Fortune. What is it about that person that is touching a nerve inside us, right? That's a worthy rival and the whole point of worthy rivalry is to recognize these people. You don't have to like them you don't have to agree with them. But you have to respect them to recognize these other people or organizations because their strengths reveal to us our weaknesses and our opportunity is to look at our weaknesses and build on them.
Work on them. In other words. It's a self-improvement exercised as individuals or as organizations, you know, and there were always other players in the game who are better than you
always. Well. Yeah, ideally. Otherwise you're really wasting your time
and you because you get to pick your own worthy Rivals. If you just pick people that you're constantly on perform. Well, then you're going to get caught totally by surprise because someone will come and swoop in. So I love this idea of the worthy rival and you asked at the top of the show about you know, the other my competitive with some of the other remarkable. Yeah.
Going to ask you about that folks out there and we were talking about Ken Robinson and the answer is no I learned from them. If I had a finite mindset. I'd want to compete with them. I want to get more gigs than them. I want to get higher profile gigs than them. I want to do more TED Talks. I want more views based on what you know, I can be all high and mighty about myself because I got more Instagram followers than they do. Well, they got four times more Twitter followers than I do. Like, what's the correct metric right. It's ridiculous. The whole thing is a Fool's errand. You just drive yourself nuts, right and you can either make yourself feel proud because you only look at the ones where you're
We make yourself depressed because you only look at the ones that you're behind and the answer is it doesn't matter which is what are they doing? That's better than you that you have an opportunity to push your own game to advance yourself. It's self-improvement. So I would much rather view the other players in the game is worthy Rivals rather than
competitors. That makes sense. I noticed that in the book you mentioned we can select these people strategically and that I think is simple but most people don't do that. They just kind of look at whoever's in their orbit or whoever sits. Next is good office. Yeah.
Or whoever is getting accolades that day and that's really unhealthy because if I'm just looking at whoever is showing up in my Instagram feed it's a constant ass-kicking that I'm giving myself.
Not only that we don't know how they're doing it right? I know for a fact because I get to see behind the scenes that there are people who game the Amazon a New York Times bestseller list or share night. You can pay for a company to make you New York Times bestseller. And if you look at the numbers behind the scenes, you can see the ones who are doing it. I know some of the names not going to say all right, of course, right?
I wouldn't that kind of show Amazon, you know, the number of emails I get that say Hey everybody. Can you all please buy my book at the same time? Because Amazon calculates that I think hourly and so if you get all your friends to buy your book in the same hour, you can become number one in a category and then you screenshot it go home. And then for the rest of time you're in Amazon number one bestseller, you know, or you get all your friends to write fake reviews to drive your stars up because more stars means more Book Sales this millions of ways to game the system.
So if I'm comparing myself to people who are gaming the system, so I'm getting all insecure because I think that they're better than me, but they're built on a house of cards. Anyway, right? It's they're better than you at
emailing all their friends at the same time or
whatever you so you have to be a little bit cynical even when you make the comparisons, which is we don't actually know how people achieve their success, you know, the ones that I admire of the ones that I legitimately like them like I admire their work, I admire their message but there's a consistency like they're able to do it on a regular basis and when you meet them in person when you see them on a stage like this
Hope is exactly how you see them on a video or something and there's an authenticity to it. Those are the ones I really choose to make myself a worthy rival. But those are the ones I choose to compare my craft with their craft and they're the ones who pushed me to be a better version of whatever I'm doing
for people watching and listening. How do we select worthy rivals in a healthy way you kind of touched on this but I would love some sort of prescriptive. If
you know, you know, my rule of thumb is the ones that make you uncomfortable like you hear their name and you go, you know, or somebody mentions the other company in you go. Well, let me tell
Tell you the truth. Yeah, we sort of, you know, let me tell you how they do it, right, you know if there's an emotional response is probably touching a nerve for a reason sometimes it's because they're worthy Rivals not always not always not always but I think that's a good rule of thumb.
There's an introspection to be had here because there's definitely people where I go. All right, this person's a worthy rival because they show me that I should be reaching out for bigger names that are better equipped. Oh,
no, that's not it. That's not what is it worthy. Robbery isn't you know?
Worthy Rivals because their numbers are better than yours. That's the finite mindset because we're comparing metric to metric. Right? Right, and they're arbitrary selections. No, no a worthy rival We compare because their marketing is better than ours or their the gold standard. Like if you're in the airline business Southwest Airlines would definitely want to be worthy Rivals because everybody talks about and write about Southwest Airlines you'd be insane to ignore that. They're doing something right. You don't have to do it the way that they do it, but you have to pay attention that they're doing something you have to learn from them. If you're in the smartphone business, you know, we cannot ignore the eye.
I phone you just kind of do right now is it as incredible as it used to be that's debatable, but what got us here, right? There's something pretty remarkable about that, you know Netflix. If you're in the TV movie business, you have to be looking at Netflix not by letting their numbers of their market caps or anything like this, but there's something that they're doing that made them the gold standard. There's something that they're doing that everybody uses them as The Benchmark. They should definitely be a worthy rival.
So you're not looking at metrics and it's so easy to get sucked into the
Correct, right, so easy to go Tim Ferriss has million downloads per episode. I guess it's possible and that's great to get a little bit of like a expand your horizons and see what's a possibility for you what the market could possibly bear or whatever it is, but that's kind of where that has to end because if you're just chasing the same number of subscribers, you can drive yourself crazy.
Also, isn't it better to have loyal subscribers rather than lots of subscribers for pair. You know, it's like profit versus Revenue. Yeah, you know, I revenues are yeah, but you're losing money hand over fist, and the problem is when you have truly Visionary company.
Like Amazon where they were able to lose money over the course of time because there was something bigger at play that Bezos understood and so now that's used as the reason we should sustain all loot money-losing companies, right? You know, well Amazon less money for you know, it's like yeah. Yes Tesla losses. Yes, but there's a much bigger Vision to play that is not about their metrics, by the way. So we have to be very careful in those kinds of comparisons. So in you're talking about it's the same thing. It's like I'd rather company be small and profitable.
Then big and losing money you speak at a lot of companies and you talk with I assume the head honchos that a lot of
these companies some of them Amazon Tesla. Those are obvious winners What are some of the sort of Silent Killers where you're like, wow, these people really have it figured out but nobody's really talking about them or they're so small but wait five years because you have an inside look at a lot of these
places. I've written about some of them. I mean, I think that barry-wehmiller was run by a guy named Bob Chapman is an absolutely remarkable company and
And what I like is, you know, I've had the opportunity to really get to know Bob and he's become a dear friend and Mentor. He's written his own book The forward by the way is fantastic. I assume you wrote it I did. Yeah, if you read nothing else just read the Forum just read the
forward and
place it back on the Shelf. No, but joking aside, I mean Bob his company is one of those companies that we should be learning from but nobody really it's a funny name company barry-wehmiller, really not even had a spell it, you know, but his work is really important and I'm glad that people now know
More about who he is and how about his company? There's a lot of companies that just do well that we know are good. But we don't study them enough what Kip Tindell built over Container Store is very very special that from your book was
so surprising because when I think of like businesses that seem incredibly boring, it's The Container Store and whenever my wife's like I'm going to go to The Container Store and get shelves of the garage. I'm just like I'm going to go to the dentist and get a root canal. Yeah because I don't want to go you
just hated field that you're not an organized person clearly organized people like
You
know, they love the container that is like their wine Mary Jen. She like Container Store. Yeah. It's a good match. It is
a good match. So yeah. No, I know many people who Container Store is like it's their thing. Yeah, they're Utopia for me. I Shangri-La The Container
Store though such an interesting example, you wrote about this in infinite game. Where well, why don't you tell it better? They basically hit the recession after growing 20th century. It's a
very the reason I admire Kip Tindell and what he did is what happened cannot be reproduced overnight. It takes years to achieve what he achieved.
Just when the recession hit after as you said 20 percent compounded growth over the course of Going on 30 years all of a sudden like everything plummeted by 13% and they weren't used to that and so like many companies they looked into cost-cutting because they had assist, you know, get through these rough times, but they did not lay off a single human being they did not look to layoffs as the means to Costco. But what they did do they went around the company and said, okay here's what's going to happen. Like we need to tighten the belts and they had some ideas and spontaneously people started.
Taking it upon themselves to find more opportunities. I was shocking I know and so for example, some of them would take business trips and not submit their expense reports. They downgraded their hotels voluntarily, they would not told to do it. So they'd stayed in economy Hotel versus a luxury hotel or not luxury, but a nice hotel and they even called vendors and said, can you help us out? We need to cut costs on the vendor said sure Ryan which is unheard of right? Why should your vendors cut their cause to help you save your money? It doesn't it doesn't make it doesn't make any sense and it's because of years and years and years of Looking Glass.
Their employees that their employees wanted to look after the company its after years and years and years of treating their vendors with respect that the vendors wanted to pay back and it's a very human thing would they couldn't have done anything? There's no company that could have instructed their employees to downgrade their hotels or pay their own expenses on business news and right and even if people were forced to do it the Rumblings underneath would be furious and then as soon as times got better the people look for ways to steal it back sure, right even if they would stealing office supplies they would
My eyes, it was like they're forcing me. I'm going to take from them. Yeah, but there was this amazing sense of camaraderie and pride like we're going to figure this out together. And again it's because they didn't use Mass layoffs either. They said we're not going to sacrifice you to say this company, but we all going to have to find ways and because it was spontaneous it worked and again, you couldn't do it overnight think of it like friendship right friendship is not a balanced equation. You don't you nobody keeps a notebook of like all the things that I've done for you and all the things you've done for me is like well, I did 13 things for you last night.
And you've only done for for me this month like this friendship is not fair. Yeah, it's not how friendship works right friendship is about Equitable not equal the way I like to Define equitable vs. Equal equal is I do the dishes you do the dishes I cook you cook I take out the garbage you take out the garbage that's equal Equitable is I'll cook you do the dishes. I'll put the kids to bed. You take out the garbage like it's Equitable not equal. We're not doing the same things but we both feel like we're contributing. We both feel like it's balance, right and the same goes in a company.
Their Equitable relationships, which is we take care of the people. It's like in friendship as I was saying a friendship is not about equal number of things we do for each other. I could do 50 things for you and you do nothing for me. But the reason I consider you a friend is because I have absolute confidence that the one-time right? I'm going to need something. I know you'll be there for me no matter what even if I never call it, right? It's the confidence that you will and that's what makes the Friendship Equitable. That's what makes the Friendship good and balanced and if the same in a company which is when we take care of our people over and over and over again even
Even though we may never ask them to sacrifice. If it ever came to the point where we do they will because it's Equitable because we weren't taking care of them and we know that they'll be there for us, right. This is why a lot of companies, you know, they expect you know in hard times to just ask people to sacrifice and expect it to go well and it won't because you haven't been looking after the people for the past five years six years ten years when times were good, right? So Kip Tindell is a very important CEO and founder of a company in the world today. He was also very satisfied with being extremely profitable.
But necessarily being the biggest container store is a reasonably relatively small company compared to a lot of other companies but very profitable very well-run very loyal employees very stable and so tip always talked about how he'd rather have that then more revenues than arbitrary size, you know open thousands of thousands of stores that don't make money just to say that you have more stories and everybody else.
It's funny how this shows up everywhere inside the business to Jen my wife loves going to The Container Store because she'll go
during their one or two sales by these. I don't know Italian Alfa whatever shelving wheatish is Alpha Swedish. So the by these things they're amazing and then she'll go. Oh I bought the wrong thing. I bought too many and then she's like and then I got really busy and then we flew to wherever and I didn't return them and she'll call and they'll be like, it's fine just bring them back and then the guy from the store will like help unload the car, which is probably against every Insurance regulation that they have but it's a nice thing to do when your
Eight months pregnant
and the reason that works is because The Container Store trusts their employees to use their own discretion right poorly LED organizations. People say things to you. I'm not allowed to do that. It's against the rules right? I'm not allowed to do that. I'll get in trouble like you're eight months pregnant and you got a heavy thing like I'd love to help you but I can't I'll get in trouble, right? That's a poorly LED organization. Well, let organization. They know what the rules are. We don't trust people to follow the rules. We trust people to know when to break the rules and we hire good people and we take care of them and we build up their confidence and and they know the rules.
But there's always an opportunity to break the rules because it's the right thing to do, you know, like I'll give you an example. Both of these stories are true. They're unrelated but they're both true in the US Air Force. We have a very simple rule don't fly into a raining airspace really simple. Yeah. There was a kc-135 tanker that was in the region and they accidentally drifted into Iranian airspace completely unrelated completely separate incident. There's another kc-135 tanker that was in the air space and a fighter.
Called Bingo which means you ran out of gas and so they needed to get to him to refuel him in-flight refueling and they made the decision that the quickest way to get to him was to just slice through a little corner of Iranian airspace and the crew made the choice knowing that they could get in trouble because it broke the rules to slice through the Iranians are space right now if we treated everybody the same just based on the rule book. Both of those Crews would have been punished which later on produces some serious problems because then if there's another crew and there's a plane in trouble. Will they be too afraid for fear of getting trouble to cut through?
Iranian airspace now in real life what happened is only one of those Crews got in trouble, which is the idiots who drifted into Iranian airspace, right? But the crews who made the choice to break the rules because it was the right thing to do to get to a pilot who was out of gas. That's what I'm talking about that's discretion. We trust people to make their decisions and we trust people not to follow the rules. We trust people to know when the right time to break them. So yes for insurance reasons, we can't help everybody take all their stuff curbside whatever it is, but the the someone pregnant there's something heavy. You know what I'm going to break this rule because it's the right thing to do, right?
Do and a good leader will look at that and understand their intentions and may not agree. But say I understand and it's fine, right but you're doing it for everyone. Now you have an insurance problem again, we don't trust people to follow rules. We trust people to know when to break them and that's called discretion and the best organizations give their Frontline employees the discretion to make decisions. The founder of the Ritz-Carlton said my lowest paid employees have all the contact with my customer. So if you're not treating this front line people well and you're not giving them discretion you have a terrible terrible brand no matter
how great your executive ranks are and we've seen this a thousand times. We've all had really bad experiences. There are even companies that we quote unquote don't like because of our experience with them. But if you meet their leadership their leaderships wonderful sure right except for the fact that it's not filtering down. It happens on a regular basis. So it's a reason to admire Container Store.
You're listening to the Jordan Harbinger show with our guest Simon sinek. We'll be right back after
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I think you can really see this in businesses that are run well and it's hard to say if it's something like apple where you know can be hit or miss but usually you walk in there and the people at the retail locations. It's Thanksgiving Rush. Everyone should theoretically be miserable and angry and they almost can't wait to help you. Well, once you break them out of their little Clique conversations or whatever. They're kind of excited to show you something in the photo app and you're just like how on Earth do you build fans among your employees?
Why he's that are so interested in helping somebody on Black Friday Angela
erence, who was the head of Apple retail until recently gets a lot of the credit for that and she was the former CEO of Burberry as well who was responsible for the big Burberry turnaround offered all kinds of benefits to the Frontline employees of you are full-time retail employee. You got stock option opportunities like HQ employees. You got the same health care benefits as HQ employees. You got $2,500 in outside education opportunity, which the company would
Issue for how you know, all these amazing perks that are usually reserved for folks who work at headquarters, but these are Frontline full-time retail employees. They usually are treated differently. Yeah, and her attitude was there full-time employees. We should treat them like all full-time employees that they gave them all the same benefits. So, of course the first thing that goes through people's mind is that most cause I we couldn't do that across the fort. No wonder my iPhone is so exactly yeah. So Angela actually ran the numbers what she discovered is that the cost to take care of these people was Net Zero because it was offset by the
things as because they had so little turnover. They had a much smaller recruiting department because they weren't constantly causing constantly hiring new Frontline retail
people and training them in training and losing productivity
most shoplifting happens by employees and I accept the numbers that I've heard or astonishing that the average retail stores suffers 10 percent losses from shoplifting most of which is by employees. Wow, you know, it's astonishing but if you look at the best LED organizations, they suffered like two and three percent shoplifting numbers like they're much much lower because people just you take care of me we take care of you.
And so what Angela found out was the reduced recruiting cost not to mention the fact that it's hard to train somebody up every single few months sure get the kind of quality and knowledge. Basically the same the NetSpend was zero right was zero. And so when other companies say we can't afford to do that. And by the way, this is not just because apples a high price retail are you know, I was going to ask about right? Yeah. I mean Costco does the exact same thing Costco takes care of their Frontline employees extremely well and their net expense on that is also 0 wow because of the additional savings on the back end not to mention.
Ian which son number which you cannot calculate is just the improved quality of customer service the you know that plays to customer loyalty and all the rest of it here. We are singing the Praises of apple right Costco simply because of their employee treatment, you know the way yeah employees because I can tell you some terrible stories of companies as well and you and I go on the air and tell terrible stories as well. Those are numbers that are hard to
calculate. Yeah, and I would imagine that a lot of Executives who are thinking in finite terms playing finite games. They're reporting well, we're going to lose money. But if we lay
3,000 people it looks like we made a profit and then they just don't necessarily on the backend go crap. We got to
rehire 3,000 people knocks two years. I'll tell you one of my favorite stories. I was flying Air Canada as flying from Toronto to New York. So short flights like 40 minutes late Customs is on that side. And so you have to get to the airport really early because who knows how long the lines will be sure and customs and so we got there super early and went really quickly. We got through really quickly and we were there early enough to get on the earlier flight. So I went up to the gate agent said hey I got here early. Do you have any seats?
On the earlier flight so I can get back home earlier. And she said yeah, we do I said fantastic. Can we get on the plane? And she went like this and said, yes, it will cost $500 each. I was like look whether you put me on the plane or not. Put me on the plane. I'm not paying $500 to get on a flight one hour earlier right for 40 minutes late. Like it's never going to happen. That's ridiculous. Yeah, it's going to the same airport like them not changing my route not changing anything. I just got here early. You have empty seats. Can I please get on it right away. This is something that every airline in the world will do. Yeah. I know. Yeah, and she said well we have
Charge you I said just so I understand you are okay sending two empty seats back to New York because you're so intent on making this $500 a ticket, which I'm not paying. I'd rather just wait, right so you're not going to get the money. But either way you're not getting the money, right? So you're okay knowing that you won't get the money sending two empty seats back instead of making the customer happy and she leaned forward to it sir. This is a business would hit ya. Wow. That didn't come from her now. No Frontline employee is going to lean in to a customer and be like sir. This is a business.
That came from her manager and her manager was told that and that manager was told that and that manager was told that so all the way through the line people were trying to do the right thing and somebody stop them from doing the right thing. Right and we're told this is a business that trickled down from up on high right that did not come from her. No, of course not
she doesn't care. She has no doubt and
now look what's happening. Not only did they not get my $500 because I waited my our but here I am talking
about we're trashing are cannas
haribol customer service and Air
Canada and its can
That's double worse. There's no no, I don't know they've
changed their policy since yeah a few years ago. I don't believe they have now, why would the and I believe you need like executive status to like get on a flight earlier something. Yeah, but my point is it's okay to have the rule there. It's okay to charge the fee and all of this and you know, I don't have an issue with that. It's that this employee had no discretion to break the rule because she decided this is the right thing to do to take care of a customer and the seats are empty anyway, right? She had no discretion.
Gretchen she felt she had no discretion and that's the problem because everybody knows the right thing to do, you know, it doesn't require excessive amounts of training to know this is fair and that's unfair, right? This is a leadership problem. Not an employee problem. I do not blame her right? I blame her manager and her managers manager and her managers manager manager and however many managers I can go up the chain of command in the hierarchy that somebody denied their employees the discretion to do the job. They've been trained to do there's all these and we suffer right the company suffered sure. I'm the employees of hers.
She probably goes
Mangos, if she
doesn't like courage, I have their friggin deal with this I guarantee she doesn't like nor her job. The reason employers really want to take care of us is because usually those employees really feel taken care of Charlie and it's the same companies the companies that we celebrate the way they treat their employees tend to have remarkably good customer service Costco Southwest Airlines Container Store, they tend to have an amazing customer service not because they train people how to do amazing customer service. It's because they look after their people and their people are happy to look after us. It's not a complicated
formula man. It burns to hear that because it's
Seems so simple am not an upper management and Air Canada. However, looking at Southwest and having the people at the check-in gate doing their little rap. They didn't go. Okay, it's Friday. So you can wrap the safety rules. If you want to write. It's not office space. They just go do what you want do what you want as long as it's sort of complies with. Well the rule the
FAA rules are is that you have to do it and it have to you have to be able to understand this be legible my or whatever the order yeah audio
version trying to I was trying to
articulate don't know what it is. Yeah. Anyway, it
has eligible intelligent.
Q you have to do it and it has to be intelligible but the FAA does not instruct how you do it and so Southwest requires their people to do it. They take it upon themselves and how they do it and it makes us all actually listen most of us don't look up or take our headphones out for the safety announcement worse the number of employees that push a recording. So we really Zone it's not even a human being right talking to us Reagan. It's a recording right which is the most impersonal thing in the world. My favorite one is, you know, a recording that comes on that says ladies and gentle please put your seat.
Belt on a recording like for every nervous flyer out there. There's nothing more beautiful than a really relaxed Captain coming ongoing lady diamond from the flight deck a little bit of chop the next ten minutes and dangerous. If you just put your seat belts up on please and we'll be out of this in 10 minutes. I mean amazing. This is a recording that comes on and says seat belts, you
know strap yourself in you might die.
And the point is it's nothing to do with good bad right wrong. It's that it one is personal and one is impersonal and when we treat people like human beings the whole process becomes
When we treat people like robots or like numbers the whole process becomes inhuman and in this day and age humanity is something we're struggling to find, you know, deep meaningful relationship seemed to become more and more Elusive and just human connection become so wonderful and so valuable that we can build it into other places we can build it in. Why is it that you that you have to be an elite passenger or a gold Platinum customer with a bank that when you call a customer service number human being picks it right? Nobody wants to listen to a recording. We all hit zero zero zero zero zero.
Anyway, like when did talking to a human being become a status or a luxury that should be a basic thing and they do it because they save money they save money and at the same time they actually are creating burden letting you know, I'm okay with the electronic stuff of really basic stuff is my flight on time, you know, most of us go online to change our seats, but I think a lot of the time for a lot of people when we call it's because we can't do it online like we're stuck. We're stuck, you know, that's why I'm calling or or there's something unusual or I need I need some advice.
to work this through so I think the organizations that really understand that connecting somebody with a human being even though they might be an additional cost on the Kohl Center side pays dividends on the back end which
company or organization do you think is exhibiting finite thinking instead of playing an infinite game and whose Reckoning is on the horizon and I'm worried you're going to say the United States, but well, I mean, you know organizations go in and out
of it, you know, and especially when there's succession when there's different leaders, right and so because some leaders
Has more infinite in some leaders and more finite and if an organization is Rich, it can usually sustain a finite leader for a period of time but hopefully successive leaders will be infinite. Otherwise that organization will eventually got a business. So there have been organizations that have gone in and out of it. So Walmart's a great example Walmart definitely was infinite when Sam Walton ran it and a couple of the CEOs who followed after Sam Walton definitely were infinite minded trying to advance the cause of the common average American in a working American and then you had a guy by the name of Mike Duke.
Was the previous CEO not the current CEO who was much more finite driven much more numbers driven cared much more but short term result cared much more about lining his pockets than taking care of his people and Walmart suffered as a result. We used to rally for them from Walmart and love Walmart than we started hating Walmart and wanting them out of our neighborhoods and the company might have done OK in the short term, but it did a lot of long-term damage to the employee into the customer which really made the company much harder to run Doug mcmillon came in. He's the new CEO. He's way more infinite minded.
And you know under Steve Ballmer Microsoft which was an infinite mind company for many years under Gates really became very excessively focused on short-term results and financial results trying to beat apple as opposed to just trying to be the best version of themselves and Advance their cause of helping people be more productive such an Adele at the new CEO of Microsoft is way more infinite minded. So the good news is those companies had a lot of money to sustain through a finite minded period some organizations are not as lucky. I mean the Lehman Brothers is a great example. Oh, yeah, they went bankrupt lickety-split. Yeah on a lot of those.
Brings that sort of Hit the skids pretty early pretty quickly rather, you know companies go in and out of it and I think a lot of the companies that we struggle with we have problems with their ethical decisions odds are very high that they become very finite minded usually companies that we questioned their ethics and I don't mean every company's ethical lapses, but when it becomes a recurring theme, you know, Facebook is a prime
example is just going to ask about her.
Yeah, you know, they were an infinite mind a company when they started in Zuckerberg really had every opportunity to become one of the great leaders in American business today, and I don't know what happened the
many became more obsessed with its business model than it did with advancing a cause. It uses its cause to justify decisions rather than looking for ways and they seem more protective of their business model. And so all of these questionable ethical decisions, they make over and over and over again. It's not one ethical lapse. It's a series of ethical lapses. It seems that the company is just really become much more finite focused which is which is a real shame. Can I come out of it? Of course, of course, like any individual I know many leaders who were very finite minded and they became Bob Chapman who?
Now Rave about he was one of those finite minded leaders for many many years and he had an epiphany and he became pretty remarkable. He's become a pretty remarkable leader as a result of that transformation a urine for these leaders to refine that infinite Vision that help them build their companies into what they are today and go back to that even if it means struggling in the short term to get there or to find a business new business model. It'll make the company more sustainable in the long-term beyond the lifespan of all of these founder leaders.
I think a lot of people think I can't do that or our company can't do that because it'll hurt.
Profit and then you look at somebody like The Container Store or Patagonia who says we're going to investigate all the labor and the people that make the jackets and then suddenly your friends are shaming you for wearing the other brand that has I don't know human trafficking is part of the process
and the answer is this let's not kid ourselves. Yeah, it will hurt profit in the short term but over the long term it's the right thing to do and it's like going to the gym. Well, it hurts when you start going to the gym. It really really hurts and you don't see results for a while. Yeah, but you kind of have to stick with it and it's the right thing to do. It's the same.
Yes, it's going to hurt and yes, there's going to be struggle. But if you've been taking care of your people, the people will hunker down and go through the hard times with you because it's the right thing to do Kodak is one of the Prime examples of an organization that couldn't change their business model, you know, they invented the digital camera in 1975
the a lot of events and notice that
Kodak invented the digital camera, but they were too worried that the digital camera would steal market share from film sales right which they were film chemical and paper company that they literally suppress the technology and they made billions.
As of dollars not millions billions of dollars from the royalties. They got from the light the patents the patents they own so other companies were actually using Kodak technology as the digital Revolution started to show up. So your Nikon's and your Fugees. We're actually using Kodak technology and when those patents ran out five years later Kodak was bankrupt, right? It's mind-blowing that that it had yet on paper Wall Street was hailing them as healthy and good and strong just because the income she look good, but it was built on a questionable foundations, right? What would have been more responsible?
And very difficult was to transform the company into a digital company knowing that the end of paper and chemicals and developing was nigh and the film was nine and it absolutely would have heard profits and it absolutely would have hurt revenues and it absolutely would have put the company through a short-term stress, but they would have done it and Kodak may have been the digital company today where we would be demanding the phone that had the codec technology. Like we just don't know but that would have been the right thing to do instead. They went bankrupt. You got to be kidding me unbelievable. And the worst part is every single one of those.
Those Executives that made those decisions had long retired when Kodak went bankrupt, which means that all of them got their fat bonuses because the company was making tons of money, right and literally left the company in a shambles after they left and bear no responsibility and Baird no consequences because of it
and that's fine. I thinking and it's scary when you extrapolate that out to current world politics or any sort of like macroeconomic decision. And you go wait a minute, aren't we doing that in a lot of areas?
We look for the short-term gains because there's political advantages.
Like we look for short-term gains because it helps me get my bonus at the end of the year, but there are long-term consequences. There's a cost for every decision we make and I think people forget that sometimes the cost comes in money and sometimes the cost comes in other things, but there's a cost for every decision we make and not all the costs are worth the money we make Simon. Thank you. This is interesting as expected. Thank you Jordan. Good to see you.
Thanks to Simon for popping by the studio today. Always good to see you man. The book the new book is called the infinite game. All his books are good. They're good read will link to those in the show notes highly recommend you pick those up. And by the way, when you buy books through our website, you do support the show. We didn't have the little affiliate links up before but now we do because you know, I'm buying diapers these days folks in those things ain't cheap, but no really we actually do really appreciate that. We put the money towards improving things like transcripts. The reason we have
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