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This isn't your average business podcast and he's not your average Host. This is the James altucher show.
Today on the James altucher show. Welcome to part two. Part one was also available today and in part one we talked about what are all the uses for Bitcoin why Bitcoin. And in part two, we talked about D Phi. N FTS secured. I spoke, it's all the business models on top of crypto, but perhaps most importantly what are the next Milestones that are going to drive crypto higher. Here we go.
What I want to start talking about, is these new. Also a relatively new uses of crypto, which are amazing. So whereas Bitcoin was designed to potentially replace currency, which is there's let's say 40 trillion dollars worth of currency around the world. This new thing defy tokens are there is intended to replace Wall Street and banking. So there's 1.3 quadrillion, derivatives and Investments and so on throughout the world. So it's could be a
Much larger market. A lot of these are a lot of these defy, cryptocurrencies are built on top of a currency like ethereum, but there's also, like, you mentioned Solano polkadot cardano. Let's talk about defy in general. So and again, decentralized Finance. What that means is instead of me calling up my bank and then say, Hey, where's the brokerage firm? I want to buy some Apple stock. They he calls the stock exchange. They trade a little on the stock exchange. There's market makers, and dark pools. And so
On in the middle, there's fees every step of the way there's possibility of human error every step of the way and so on decentralized finance allows these transactions theoretically to have a much more seamlessly more quickly. No chance of fraud. No extra layers of fees happens right away, 24 hours a day and on, and on and on, there's all these huge benefits. And so this is just beginning so and it's very complicated a lot of it. So I don't want to explain everything, but what do you see happening in that
space?
So I think that there's a couple of views that I have of this as probably different than than some other. So one is, I think you have to start every conversation of decentralized Finance with the recognition that Bitcoin was the creator of this entire decentralised Finance space, right? It's decentralized money. And the reason why I say that is because most people when they hear defy, they immediately jump to the financial services. Lending exchanges, Etc.
We have to remember Finance is made up of stocks bonds, currencies and Commodities Plus then all of the financial services on top of it. And so we kind of build from that base of first, you got to get the assets of stocks, bonds, currencies, and commodities. And then you go, and you get the financial services that allow you to interact with our trade, those assets that gives you kind of a total view of finding a point. So when you come to DC the decentralized finance world, what we need is we need decentralized assets, right? So Bitcoin being a decentralized currency, and then eventually we're going to need the
Other things and then you're going to need the decentralized financial services. Now, when people say decentralized Financial Services specifically so forget the assets for a second, the decentralized financial services. What I always go back to is what are we really talking about? Like let's zoom out, get out of kind of the the Bitcoin to the crypto World. We're just talking about automation. If you remove middlemen, you're going to use software to automate these transactions. So a simple smart contract, simply says, okay. James is going to send me the
D to his home. And I'm going to send him money in exchange for it. And in the Legacy world when we go to make that transaction, I literally take the money. I put it in, escrow you take the deed. You basically put that in escrow that, the escrow agent like switches and we all have like a third party. We have lawyers. We have paper contracts, like we've all these different components all to allow you and I to do a transaction where we trust each other. And then you and I both have to trust each other in the transaction by using these intermediaries, but then we also have to
trusted intermediaries are going to do what they say they're going to do and there's obviously law and Punishment and kind of all this stuff that reinforces that system. Well, what we're talking about here is literally just using software to now replace all that nonsense. You and I enter into a smart contract and the code executes force and the code executes in an automatic fashion that allows for you to give me the asset that I want me to give you the money that you want. And so, if you really think about that from kind of a first principle standpoint, it's just automation. That's all this is now, is it?
Decentralized is a centralized web assets, what Financial Services, who builds them, who owns them? What's the regulatory regime? Like you can very quickly get into the weeds. But if you think about it, just as automated Finance. I'm very hard-pressed to find somebody who doesn't believe the finance industry is going to become more automated over
time. By the way, a simple example you use one is real estate, but also a will could be built into a smart contract whether it's Bitcoin ethereum or one of these defy tokens. I can make a will and it's not like
Caillou do it again. You don't really need a lawyer. You don't need a judge to approve it. You don't. Nobody can sue later and say, oh, he was mentally unstable and he wrote that like, it just is what it is. You can't, you can't break the it's a smart contract. You can't break it. So it's going it's going to happen whether you were mentally, unstable, or not.
It's an if-then statement. And I think part of what we have to remember is go back again to the Legacy world, right? Stock Traders humans used to literally didn't ask open-outcry method on the stock.
For they have all for the most part been replaced by computers that execute software that look at if this happens, then take this trading action and its most basic form. And so in some crazy way, the quote-unquote smart contract, which is a terminology that was kind of popularized by Nick Szabo is already in place in the Legacy Financial. We don't call them smart contracts, but we do think of it as high frequency trading has replaced the human and so now
Now what we're watching is the proliferation of that across the rest of the finance industry. Now, there's a ton of debate even to the level of controversy around. What platform does it happen on? What are the assets? Who owns it? Regulatory regimes, Etc. I tend to almost think that all of those individual details, if you're an investor will make a good investment great. But as long as you're allocated to the right industry and you're smart about the way that you allocate in terms of buying
Sure, and taking more of kind of a broad-based view, you're much more likely to end up being successful, then being completely outside of the industry, right? Good Mark or a good team meets bad Market Market win bad, team meets good market market wins. And so, ultimately, what you're doing here is doing Market selection. And if you can wrap your head around, the idea that all of this automation is coming to the world. Then you've got to check the first box. The second thing in most important part of this analysis, in my
Opinion is in order to get automation. You have to have the assets, be digitized. So if I wanted to, let's say use physical cash. The analog asset in The Current financial world. It's really hard. I can't mail dollars to the stock market. I can't mail dollars for the most part in any size to do a transaction. I can use electronic to sit money. So analog dollars don't fit in the Legacy system. What we now are watching.
Is
that the electronic you said dollars? Do not fit into this new digital Financial system that's being built. It's like trying to take a cassette tape and put it into a CD, Rom player, or try to take a CD-ROM and put it in the iTunes. It doesn't work rights incompatible
technology. Yeah, how does digital fiat currency? Not work in the new system.
Well, so what we have right now is not digital fiat currency. We have electronic to Sid dollars, electronic. You sit dollars are simple files that are held in the centralized databases that actually are only settled up at the end of every day or every other day. So what ends up happening is, you have to upgrade the technology to actually be truly digital. So, if you look at something like a u.s. DC, right, which is a stable coin u.s. DC cannot actually be integrated.
In its current form into the Legacy Payment Systems. Why they have to build technology for the new digital payment rails, but those Legacy Payment Systems also cannot take their electronic. You said dollars and send them through the u.s. DC Royals either. So it's just like taking physical dollars can operate an electronic world. The electronic dollars can operate in this truly digital world where you have these kind of open systems. And so what I think we're watching play out here.
Is not only Bitcoin in terms of being built as this decentralized, digital currency, but also people are waking up to wait a minute. There's this whole automation that is coming and it's because now, the assets are going to be digitized truly digital not electronic, you sit, which is a representation of the asset, but they're actually going to be digital and so does that happen on bitcoin as kind of a layer 2? Layer 3, maybe does that happen somewhere else? Maybe that's what the market is going to decide. But I think my biggest
Focus and what I try to get through to people is we're talking about Automation and that automation is now possible because we have digital assets, truly digital, bear assets and then two is we have the ability to now in a very significant way, right? Smart contracts that are going to automate a lot of this. And what we've seen is smart contracts were pioneered in, its kind of current form. This crypto world are aetherium. It's now spread kind of out on that.
Long tail to all these other smart contract platforms, but also now we're starting to see smart contracts on bitcoin as well. And so ultimately, what I think is a very unpopular opinion. We're going to end up seeing a lot of feature parity across these platforms. And so what I get most excited about is well, what if we have feature parity, if we have assets that can be automated if we have assets, that can be digital if we have Smart contracts on a bunch of different platforms. Well, I actually think we're the most important differentiators is who's actually
I said, who's not. And that's where I spend a majority of my time on bitcoin and Bitcoin alone is because what I found is that Bitcoin is actually the only one that is truly decentralized and continues to have an economic incentive to become more and more decentralized where I think a lot of the other ones are going to become sexualized. Centralization is not bad. It's just different. And so I think that what you're seeing is that bifurcation around one pursuing decentralization. Other things pursuing efficiency.
I like this idea though. I haven't really
thought of it as automation but you're really correct that we're replacing Legacy systems, which is bogged down by non automation. You know, there are people involved there's potential for error. There's all sorts of steps involved and we're automating that and crypto in general, whether it's Bitcoin or Theory, or whatever. It's kind of the platform for automating it. There's one more step in that, which is that, it's also, you standardizing all of these things so that they could be traded with each other. So I can have
A token that helps me automate, you know, let's say cloud storage and I could trade it for a token. That helps me trade stocks. Like there's this interesting layer on top of it which allows every it turns automation into an asset and I find that to be very interesting. So for instance, I could create a cryptocurrency out of my house. I own a house I could say, okay. I'm going to create a cryptocurrency that it represents 10% ownership my house and I can start selling it to people.
And so, anybody who has a token has a smart contract which says they own a tiny piece of my house, but they can now trade this for someone who tokenize has, I don't know their future royalty earnings on their music albums. So there's not only automation but this tokenization aspect creates an infinite number of business
models.
Yeah, I think that ultimately what we're going to watch is we're going to watch the automation of all Industries and what it ends up being is is going to come back to what industries need to be decentralized. When Industries don't need to be decentralized. And what the world is going to ReDiscover is that majority of Industries, don't need to be the essential eyes.
Tight, like if you really think about what is the importance of decentralization? Well, it's really just about security and so you can get Automation and get efficiency with a centralized system. I actually think most people are going to choose to have a centralized efficient automated system.
What do you think industry will be like
that? Look at what we're watching with NF T's right now. I think that there's going to be multiple variations of n FTS. The initial version of just taking art and making it digital for the most.
Part, there's very few examples. I can think of where you need to have decentralized infrastructure for art. Right? And so what ends up happening is if you actually can get lower fees, higher throughput and you can become a more efficient system by simply taking the idea of Art and putting them in the into the digital realm. And people know that that's actually the original and there's trusted parties that do it. I think people are going to be fine with that. And you see that with let's say, developers moving from aetherium to,
Ants Marching to build. There's a bunch of developers. They don't care about decentralization. They just want the lowest fees. They want the highest throughput, it's not everybody. But that is a big portion of people a bigger portion that I think the market is the sign. So but
it's interesting though. Like I didn't know much about NFD and I've recently done a deep dive into it. There's all these aspects of n of T is beyond the the art world. Like I feel like the art world is ultimately going to be a small application for 4nf teas. And
And
you agree. I
think of an NF t. Almost like a ticket. So, you know a good nft now is not just art work, but maybe it unleashes some utility for me once I buy it. So I not only have the art but in a very simple case I could have a conversation with the original artist or you know, the New York Knicks could sell an nft of their tickets. And that's the only way to have tickets and this way that avoids scalpers or you know, whatever or forged tickets or whatever.
So, it seems like it could start moving, you know, definitely trustworthiness is important. And I don't know if centralization is important. I never really understand that but this automated aspect is becomes important. And yes, speed and efficiency becomes important, but what's attracting to you, you 2nf tease Beyond art?
To me. I think that the, the whole idea of all of this stuff is the alignment of economic incentives. So I'll give you a perfect example. Let's say that a professional sports. Team says for themselves, we sell tickets and we make money on the primary cell. I saw old James $100 ticket and I make a hundred bucks. When I do that James, then turns around and he sells it to somebody for two hundred dollars as, as kind of a secondary Market transaction. And then that person, then sells it for 500.
Oops. So now there has been a total hundred dollar primary sale plus 700 dollars of secondary Social eight hundred dollars total. I only made $100 off of that do so, what if all of a sudden now every time that this ticket trades hands in the secondary Market, I actually get a piece.
Yeah. It's incredibly valuable. That'd be pretty cool
right now. Do I need it to be decentralized? Probably not, right? And there may be a lot of reasons why I actually don't want it to be decentralized. I want to make sure I have control but I can make sure that I'm still getting paid.
I paid like all these different things. And so I think that's a good example, where people are realizing that there's technology that is now available to more aligned economic incentive because now the team is going to encourage the secondary Market. Historically, they've been against the secondary Market. They don't like it. They can make money off of it. Yeah, but now I'm thinking make money. They actually want you to flip that ticket as many times as possible because they're making money on every transaction. But I think that again, it goes back to this idea of, when do we need decentralization? And when do we not for sure. The market has decided that
For a digital decentralized. Global Currency decentralization is the most important thing. Bitcoin, two trillion dollar asset. I think it's very hard to argue against what I think the Mark is trying to figure out on all this other stuff is, like, where else do we need it? And if we do need decentralization for another use case, do we build it on top of the most decentralized layer, one Bitcoin, or do we go build it somewhere else and I think that everyone has their own opinion as that as you kind of think through that problem, but ultimately the markets going to decide does
It matter what, my personal opinion is or anybody else's the markets, going to decide the things that need decentralization is going to be built into of a Bitcoin or does it go somewhere
else? I would argue the ideal would be decentralization combined with efficiency and low fees. Because, look at your experience with YouTube. You don't want anyone Central. I like look at media in general. Nobody wants one centralized source to control their ability to spread their message. So decentralisation in that case is important or if I make a will for instance, on top of a smart contract. I
Want a centralized authority to have a system of judges to say, my will is not valid. So, decentralization is important there. Like I can't think of too many things where, yes, I'll sacrifice decentralization for Speed and low fees. But if I could have all three, that's pretty cool. I'd rather have that. I can't think of any industry really I where I wouldn't want that.
I absolutely agree that there is a desire to have all three. I think the big question is just is it actually possible, right? It is it possible to
Get something that's decentralized and efficient. What we're watching is and I think that it is possible something like the lightning Network right? Was to me is one of the most Innovative pieces of technology in the world right now. If you look at what the lightning network has done, is it has figured out a way to have complete efficiency super fast, final settlement of actual value done for essentially zero, so instantaneous payments done for zero, but it is built on top.
Above the layer 1, security of Bitcoin. So you get decentralized, Security. Plus you get on layer 2, scalability around the throughput and the feeds. And so, I think now, we're watching these other platforms are trying to copy that idea of scaling, on the layer to use. Some of them will be successful. Some of them won't. But ultimately, I think that's where you get the kind of integration, right? Or you get kind of all three. As you can get different layers, where you get different value, propositions, and then you have them vertically.
Integrated. And so you as the end user, using a layer 2, you're getting efficiency of layer 2 and scalability of layer 2, but you're using layer 1 security, at the same time and that's kind of the Holy Grail. Historically is how do you accomplish that? And that again goes back to this idea that this is a computer science breakthrough, right? As 40 years of work that went into actually being able to solve these problems and now we've exploded into a multitrillion-dollar market because of those breakthroughs.
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And if T's are the latest hot thing being talked about in the in the crypto space. But there's all that. There's something that's much more fascinating to me, which nft sort of touch on D5, sort of touches on Smart contracts, touch on which is securitize tokens. This is I think this is going to create a million different business models. The idea that I can essentially tokenize an acid create a cryptocurrency that's backed by an asset for. It's like a cryptocurrency that represents gold for instance and that itself could be sold into the crypto.
Couture like one idea. I don't know why, nobody's done yet. Let's say, I just graduated college. I have two hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt. I want to sell off 10% of my earnings for the next 10 years. The best way to do that is with the concepts and ideas behind Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. Because then not only is it secure and there's a Content, it's legal. It's a contract around it. But if I'm, if I don't want, if I get tired of James's potential,
A future earnings. I could sell that and by the crypto for Anthony's potential for future earnings and I could, you know, college students could use this to pay down their student loan debt. They can offer, 10% of their future earnings and boom. It's pay down their debt with it instead of borrowing more money. Why aren't more people? This seems to me like the biggest potential future business models in the crypto space.
Yeah. Look, I think a lot of people are going to go try it. Right? And frankly. I think that it's kind of like the late 90s
If you go back to the late 90s and you really look at a lot of those ideas. They were all right, there was everything from food, delivery, to music, streaming Etc. But we really didn't see them kind of come to fruition until a decade later. When those ended up being kind of these massive internet companies, right in the ones that and so far have proven to be sustainable and durable excetera. Now. Is that going to happen again? Here? I tend to think it's not going to be just the first one that figures out how to do some of that. It may take a couple.
Love attempts and people need to learn from each other and and users need to be ready to use that stuff. Right? And one of the big things is, I talk a lot about like decentralized social media. Everyone wants to talk about decentralized social media right now, on censorship, deep platforming, Etc. How many users are going to leave YouTube, Twitter or Facebook for decentralized YouTube, Twitter or Facebook zero, nobody's leaving because it's just the central instead. What you got to do is you got to build a 10x better product. It's got to have a better year.
Our
experience is got to have a better Network effect. It's got to have something that those other platforms don't have. And oh, by the way, it just happens to be decentralized. But if you lead with decentralisation as the value prop, I just don't think people care about that, right? In terms of the mainstream.
That's really interesting because I guess you can create a network effect if me if content creators are to some extent miners. Also, so that the act of creating popular content also, somehow, it's like proof of
Content mining that a generates more of the tokens of that social
media.
Yeah, I mean, look at it. There's a million different applications for this. I think the takeaway is just that. As you enter this new world. You can't simply say. Let me take the old model and apply it with this new technology. So, for example, you couldn't say, you know, what? We're going to do to disrupt the taxi industry. We're now going to allow you to send us a message on your smartphone and then we're gonna have a taxi come and get you but that wouldn't have made much.
It says it wouldn't been very disruptive instead. The smartphones came with GPS and Uber was possible and some I figured out how to disrupt the Legacy system. Same thing with online publishing when the internet came along, there's a bunch of newspapers like, oh my God, that's amazing. Let's take our newspaper. Let's create a copy of it at the copy machine and then we're going to literally put like, the PDF of the image up on a URL. And now, anyone in the world can go and think, and read the newspaper looks amazing, but actually, 90% of the value was the ability to
Test headlines to have multiple people working on an article to put multimedia in it. Be able to edit in real time and kind of add to the story. The ability to distribute it differently, all these different things. And so what you have to understand it's like what does this technology unlock than previously was not possible and then if you can leverage that new thing, that's usually what ultimately leads to the
disruption will look at n FTS as an example. Like the fact that a basketball team
You can sell tickets and then get royalties and when they're sold and resold and resold, that's a new technology. That is not possible with paper tickets.
Correct? I think that that is a good example and I think that there's going to be people who, you know, again, this is a market, right? So you're going to have Lily millions of people around the world, figuring all kinds of crazy stuff and frankly, 95% of it probably is worthless, maybe 99. Maybe 99.9% of what stride as worthless, but that's how you get Innovation is all these people. Keep it.
Peer mentoring, experimenting experimenting. And then, ultimately, the things that work is copied by everyone and that's where you end up getting a value, right? If you look again, but say that noubar was one of, maybe not the first but one of the first to use the GPS in the smartphone, how many apps now use the GPS in the smartphone, hundreds thousands, millions of just everybody, right? And so when you think about that, it's really the experimentation almost leads to like a breakthrough or
Every. And then once everyone agree that, oh, dang, that's valuable. It didn't meet, at least a copy by people across Industries and used. I think that's what kind of where we're watching right now. So
what's next to unlock more value in Bitcoin? What do you see happening? El Salvador, is the first country to really formally accept Bitcoin. This was a big milestone. What are some mild? You know, Michael seller at microstrategy became the first public company to make massive crypto purchases for their, for their cash.
Nerves. So that was a big milestone if all the Fortune 500 did that crypto would probably be 200,000 already. So that's the beginning. What are some other Milestones you see probably where most likely happening if you were to guess that was and as goes Bitcoin, so goes the crypto world like everything will
follow. Yeah. I think that for Bitcoin specifically there's probably four or five one you're going to get more adoption of what I call the institutional cohort. So you had retail or individual cohort first.
Now you've got the institutional cohort showing up, that is companies both public and private continuing to adopt the assets part of the treasury. You also have companies using it as a way to pay their employees and then you have the financial institutions, whether they're directly investing or they're empowering, their customers and users to invest as well. So you'll get deeper penetration that institutional cohort. The second thing you're going to get is you're going to get the state or the country cohort to
To adopt this as well. We already have one country that made it legal tender. I think there will be many more over the next, you know, kind of 18 to 24 months that follow. And so you'll start to get that penetration that can include everything from buying it and putting it on their balance sheet, paying their employees from a government standpoint, in Bitcoin, being able to accept it for taxes and fees. Also trying to get in the hands of their citizens, right? There's all these different things using it as a settlement for bilateral, trade with other countries Etc. And so you'll get penetration.
The institutional cohort you'll get penetration in the country cohort. I think the third thing is you're going to continue to see this become more pervasive culturally, which is really really important. So you're going to see more and more athletes and musicians and folks who have large audiences pay me in Bitcoin talking about Bitcoin participating, in Bitcoin Etc, which continues again from a psychological standpoint, familiarizing people with it. Kind of moving it from this asset that people still think it's like on the dark web or something and moves it more into the mainstream and
The
fourth thing and probably, the thing that I think is the most interesting is that you're going to start to see mainstream adoption of the payment rails of Bitcoin. So Twitter recently, just started to allow people now anyone with an iOS device. On Twitter, I can send you money across Twitter. The way that that works is, I send dollars but they're actually using the Bitcoin payment rails. So, right now I can go on Twitter. I can send you 20 US dollars but my US dollars are turned into Bitcoin. It sends across the lightning. That work is turned back from Bitcoins into dollars.
Hours and then deposited into your
account. What is it? You do it that way
because it ends up being instantaneous settlement and it's completely for free. So II that now all of a sudden you drop the fees and you increase the speed again, you get that efficiency that scalability. Now, you're able to do this anywhere in the world to anyone, it becomes a superior payment system, right? If I want to send you right now, one penny. I can't send you one penny on other systems. I can only send it to you through the Bitcoin system.
The reason is because if I try to wire you a penny, the bank will tell me I'm not allowed to do it. I can't wire a penny from Western Union. Now, many people say, why do you have to do a penny? Right? But ultimately what the reason why you got to do a penny is because there's all sorts of micro payments that move may want to, do you only want to pay one penny to read an article, or maybe I want to stream money to you. Every second. I'm going to send you a penny for doing some activity, right? You when you reduce that barrier, it now becomes possible, but these some MasterCard stripe. All these guys
They can't process those transactions. Their entire business model is based on charging a fee and that fee ends up being too much to allow for a penny transaction. But now with Bitcoin, you can actually do it and that's where it becomes really, really interesting.
You know, it's fascinating that you know, it's essentially it's Twitter's aligned people to tip people who create valuable content and what's fascinating about that is a, it's never been done before. But often the people who monetize YouTube Say,
Are like you already have 250,000 subscribers? So if you make a video and it gets a million views, you, you have, you know, you're already set up to accept payment, but if somebody has no YouTube subscribers, but they make a video, they get two million views. They're not set up via YouTube probably to accept payments. They don't make any money on that. So if users are in control of who makes the money by tipping and that's this is like a brand new business model for Content creators, and it's a great thing that Twitter starting it off.
I completely agree. And I think it's kudos to Jack Dorsey the rest of the team there also to strike a coming. I'm invested in Jack mahler's. All these folks across those two companies, and many other companies in the industry are all trying to push this forward. And ultimately what they're trying to do is I try to drive the cost and the friction of transacting, a very small amount of value as close to zero as possible. Well,
and this is great. You're like the king of crypto content right now and I should mention also the
Um, piano family is the first family of newsletter writing. So Joe pump Leon. Oh, who's the author of The Great newsletter? Huddle up about the intersection of finance and sports. He's been on the podcast. Couple times. Your wife Polina writes a great newsletter, the profile and she's coming on the podcast. I read her newsletter every day. In fact, you three your, the three newsletters I read every day, you know, yours Jose and I'm not even interested in sports, but I love his stories about sports and Polina, always has great profiles of
People from every industry, all over history. I love her newsletter. So congrats, you guys just sit around the Thanksgiving table talking about a newsletter
business. I wish that we did but we don't, it's what he says. I mean, you know, look, you built a very large one yourself. I spent a lot of time writing a ton and I do think that there is there's value in being able to clearly, right? Because if you can clearly right, that means you can clearly think, right? And that ultimately ends up being asked,
Said that, what's the best way to develop clear thinking, clear writing its to do it? And so we just get more shots on goal and a weekly or monthly basis than most people. And so, you know, it's proven to be a pretty valuable, you know, kind of experience but we'll keep doing it. Until one day will probably wake up and you say, okay, we're done. This wasn't a, you know, we're not having fun anymore and see you guys.
Have you considered other crypto style, businesses, like doing a seems like everybody. It seems like they're handing out crypto hedge funds at the airport like
What's have you thought about doing one of those?
I do a lot of investing but no trading. So no one. No hedge funds for me.
Yeah, good. Good for you. So, thanks again. Anthony. I hope you come on again and you're always, welcome guests. If you have anything you want to you want to share and I will say in the intro and outro shows how to find your newsletter, but everybody should read it. It's really valuable. And if you're serious at all, or you put even a single dollar into into Bitcoin or any crypto, you got to read Anthony's, Anthony pop, Leon Osman.
His letter, so the pump letter I should say it's called. So thanks a lot. And I think it's great.
Absolutely. I love the podcast and thanks so much for having me. No problem.
