#98 Yuval Noah Harari on The 2 Most Important Skills For the Rest Of Your Life

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Hey everybody. Welcome to impact Theory, our goal with this show. And Company is to introduce you to the people and ideas that will help you actually execute on your dreams. All right, today's guest is one of the most profound thinkers of our time. A two-time winner of the polonsky prize for creativity and originality. His books have sold over 12 million copies and been translated into more than 45. Languages sapiens his seminal book on the history of mankind. Spent six months.

Sunday Times bestseller list and also made him a number one New York Times bestselling author. His work has been recommended by countless luminaries including Bill Gates, Richard Branson, Mark Zuckerberg and Barack Obama. He's won a Litany of awards including the society for military histories, Mankato award for outstanding articles on military history and the 2017 handles Glatz, German economic book award for the most thoughtful and influential economic book of the Year. Additionally. He's one of the most

most sought-after an influential speakers in the world. He's given multiple TED talks on hot button, issues relating to the human race. And in 2018. He was invited to give the main stage keynote speech on the future of humanity. At the world, economic Forum, annual meeting in Davos. He is a PhD from Oxford is a tenured history professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. And in addition to his many books, he's also written for such prestigious Global Outlets as the financial times. The New York Times The Wall Street Journal and the guardian, so please

Help me in welcoming the man who does a yearly 60-day silent. The pasta in a Meditation Retreat. The best-selling author of 21 lessons for the 21st century. You've all Noah, Harari. Good to have you on the show. Thank you supposed to be here, dude, very excited. So I've been obsessively reading your books since sapiens came out and just really, really blown away. And behind the scenes is the guy.

Named Chase somewhere who you will have to meet today, who has just been an absolute Champion for your books internally. Because of the way that you really frame the historical and where we're going in a way that becomes very accessible for today and who we are. And that I think is the cool Nexus of 21 lessons is that you're really attacking. How does this all make sense? How is the past and form, where we are? And how does where we are today in form where we're actually going to go and as a company?

Me that's making fiction content and dealing in sci-fi and things like that. These ideas are really, really important to us for creating guides on how to be essentially. And the idea that I wanted to start with is your notion of some of the things that are happening. Technologically become a little bit dangerous because you can hack a human and if you get explain what you mean by hacking a human and then how do we end up hacking ourselves in a

positive way?

Well, I think this is maybe the most important thing to know about living right now, in the 21st century that we are now hackable animals. We have the technology to decipher, how Youmans, or what, you think, what you want to predict human choices to manipulate human Desires in ways, which were never possible before. Basically to hack a human being, you need two things. You need a lot of data, especially

metric data, not just about where you go and what you buy. But what is happening inside your body and inside your brain and secondly, you need a lot of computing power to make sense of all that data. Now, previously in history. This was never possible. Nobody had enough data and enough computing power to hack human beings, even if the KGB of the Gestapo followed you around 24 hours a day.

Eavesdropping on every conversation you had watching everybody. You meet still, they did not have the biological knowledge to really understand what's happening inside you and they certainly didn't have the computing power necessary to make sense. Even of the data they were able to collect. So the KGB could not really understand. You could not really predict all your choices or manipulate all, all your desires.

And so forth. And but now it's changing what the KGB couldn't do corporations and governments today. Are beginning to be able to do. And this is because of the merger of the revolution in biotech. We are getting better in understanding what's happening inside Us in the body, in the brain. And at the same time, the revolution in info Tech which gives us the computing power necessary. When you put the two together.

Enter, when infotech merges with biotech, what you get is the ability to create algorithms, that understand me better than I understand myself. And then these algorithms cannot just predict my choices, but also manipulate my desires. And basically sell me anything, whether it's a product or a politician

and that so that's what you're calling hacking that you're hitting me with the right emotional message at exactly the right time based on my bio.

Metric data.

Yeah, this is one of the things you can do. Then you can predict you can manipulate you can eventually also re-engineer or replace. If you really hacker system. You really understand how it functions. Then usually, you can also re-engineer it or you can completely replace it. And again, one of the dangers that we are facing today in the 21st century. Is that computers? And a, I would be able to replace

In more and more tasks and maybe push millions of humans, out of the job market as a result.

All right, so I fully understand the dangers and we will talk about some of what we were talking about off camera, which is, we've got this whole story called neon future where we're exploring that notion of what happens to what you've called the useless class when they're pushed out of the job market and what does that do economically, but going just staying with the the notion of the hack ability for a second. So it's funny as you were describing it and I know you bring this

sense of like there's some like real significant problems. We need to take a very serious look at and I get almost giddy with excitement because I have potentially delusional levels of optimism. I'm very open to that.

No, I agree. I mean, the thing about this ability to hack humans is that it has also potentially tremendous positive consequences. And this is why it's so tempting. If it was only bad than it was, but it would have been, like, an easy deal to say, okay. We don't want that and

Still researching or going in that direction, but it is extremely tempting because it can provide us for example with the best health care in history something which goes far beyond anything we've seen so far, this can mean that maybe in 30 years the poorest person on the planet can get a better Healthcare from her or his smartphone. Then the richest person today gets from the best hospitals and the best

There's the kind of things you can just know about what's happening in your body is nothing. Like we've seen

so far know that that's really extraordinary. And if you had to take the positive look and say, okay we have this ability. Let's just say it's already there. We've got all this biometric data. It's kicking off. How would you encourage people to leverage that to empower themselves? And I'll use an example that I found profoundly interesting from your book.

You said that the growing up that it was unclear to you that you were gay, but that now Stanford has developed an algorithm that essentially can look at three or four photos of somebody's face. And predict with 91% accuracy whether or not they're gay, which seems impossible. But if that's true, the level of data that we could give ourselves about our like deepest most hardwired desires. There would be a level of clarity there. That seems useful. How would you encourage people to?

To use

that. Well, it's a very good example. I mean, the Stanford algorithm. Actually. There is a lot of problems with that research and let's put it aside. But first key message from from that is, how little people actually know about themselves and one of the most important things in my life and also in I think in my scientific career was the realization of how little I know about myself and Youmans in general. That was so many important.

Wasn't ideas and important facts. We don't realize about herself. I was 21 when I finally realized that I was gain, which is you know, when you think about it, it's absolutely amazing. When it should have been obvious that age, you know, 16:15 and algorithm would have realized it very quickly and you can build algorithms like that today or in a few years. You just need to follow your eye movements like you you go on the beach or

Or you look at the computer screen and you see an attractive guy in a truck with girl and just follow the focus of the eyes. Where do the eyes go and whom do. They focus on should be very easy and such an algorithm could have told when I was 15 that I was gay and the implications are really mind-boggling. When an algorithm knows such an important thing about you before, you know it about yourself. Now it can go in all.

Kinds of directions. It really depends on where you live and what you do with it. In some countries. You can be in trouble. Now, with the police and the government, you might be sent to some re-education facility in some countries like with, you know, surveillance capitalism. So maybe I don't know about myself that I'm game. But Coca-Cola knows. I'm gay because they have these algorithms and they want to know that because they need to know.

No, which commercials to show me, let's say, Coca-Cola knows that I'm gay. And I even know that about myself, that they know it. And Pepsi doesn't Coca-Cola will show me a commercial with a shirtless guy drinking Coca-Cola, but Pepsi will make the mistake of showing a girl in the bikini and next day without my realizing why. When I go to the supermarket when I go to the, to the restaurant, I will order a Coca-Cola. Not Pepsi. I don't know why, but they know so they might not even sure.

Are these kind of information with me now, if the algorithm does share the information with me again? It's it it a lot. Depends on context. One scenario is that you're 15 years old. You go to a birthday party of somebody from your class. And somebody just heard that there is this cool new algorithm which tells Euro sexual orientation and everybody agrees. It will be a lot of fun to just have this game that everybody takes turn with the algorithm.

And and everybody else looking and seeing the results. Would you like to discover about yourself in such a scenario? This this can be quite quite a shocking experience. But even if it's Donny, like complete privacy, you know, it's a very deep philosophical question. What does it mean to discover something like that about yourself from an algorithm?

What car what does it mean about human life? About human identity. We have very little experience with these kinds of things, you know, from very ancient times all the philosophers and Saints and sages tell people to get to know yourself better. It's one of the maybe the most important thing in life is to get to know yourself better. But for all of history, this was a process of self Explorer ation, which you did through things like

Like meditation and maybe Sports and maybe out and contemplation and all these things. What does it mean? When the process of cells self-exploration is being outsourced to a big data algorithm and the philosophical implications are quite mind-boggling. It's interesting.

So let's talk about that. So the implications, your Outsourcing, the self discovery process. To me that sounds so profoundly useful because all day, the people that

Didn't to me, they're asking basically one essential question. How do I find the thing that I love? Because I tell people you need to develop a passion in your life. I don't think you find it. I think you develop it, but they need to start from an area of real interest and needs to be actually something that a hard wiring level. They're just they get that response. So the next question is like how, right, how do I get into that? How do I discover the thing? That triggers me like that? And if I discovered, then how do I develop it into a passion? If you had an algorithm something?

That were able to use the more manipulative techniques that you were talking about that Coca-Cola's doing or whatever but give it to you in a way that can move you in a desired Direction. So I'll give you a specific example that you give in the book. So talking about how let's say there was an algorithm that new you just broken up with somebody new that you were in the grips Of Heartache because they're reading your bio

method. They looking we already Johan

fact give it to us. That that example that you you put so the

They're reading you the it's the song, it knows what songs to

pick. Yeah, I mean something as simple as choosing music so you you will just dumped by your boyfriend or girlfriend and the, the algorithm that controls the music that you listen to chooses the songs that are the best fit for your current mental state. And of course, this brings up the question of what is the main trick. What do you actually want from the music?

What do you want the music to uplift you of? Do you most want the music to kind of connect you to the deepest level of sadness and depression? And ultimately, we can say that the algorithm can follow different kinds of instructions. If you know, what kind of emotion State you want to be in, you can just tell the algorithm what what you want and it will do it. If you are. Not sure. You can tell the algorithm follow the recommendation.

Of the best psychologist today. So, let's say you have the five stages of grief. So, okay, walk me with music through this, five stages of grief and the algorithm can do that better than any human DJ. And what we really need to understand in this regard. Is that what team music and most of art plays on in the end is the human bio?

Ecosystem, at least according to the dominant view of out in the modern Western World. We had different views in different cultures. But in the modern Western World, the idea of art is that art is above all about inspiring human emotions. It doesn't necessarily have to be Joy. Great out. Can Inspire also sadness, can Inspire anger can Inspire fear? It can be a whole palette of emotional.

Say it's, but out is about inspiring human emotions. So the instrument artists play on, and whether it's musicians or points or Movie Makers, they're actually playing on the homo sapiens biochemical system, and we might reach a point quite soon when an algorithm knows this instrument better than any human artist, a movie, or a poem or a song.

Song that will not move you. That will not inspire you might inspire me and something that will inspire me in one situation. Might not inspire me in another situation and as time goes on and the algorithm gathers more and more data about me. It will become more and more accurate in reading my biochemical system and knowing how to play on it as if it was a piano. Like, okay, you want joy, I press this button and

Comes the perfect song, the only song in the world that can actually make me joyful right now.

That's so interesting to me. Alright, so right now, real world, you can snap your fingers and you can have one algorithm that's tied to one biochemical process in your life. For real. What would you want to Monitor and get that feedback

on now? That's easy. I mean I health care if there is like something seriously wrong in my body that I don't know about like I don't know, cancer or something.

I would like the algorithm to find that out. I don't want to wait until I'm in. The usual process is that it has to go through your own mind. You can't Outsource it. I mean, today, when you need to diagnose cancer, there are exceptions, but in most cases, there is a crucial moment when you feel something is wrong in my body and you go to this doctor and that doctor and you do this test and that test until

I finally realize, okay. We just discovered you have cancer in your liver or whatever. But because it relies on your own feelings, in this case, feelings of pain, very often. It's quite late in the process. By the time you start feeling pain. Usually the cancer has spread and maybe it's not too late, but it's going to be expensive and painful and problematic to treat it.

But if we can, you know, Outsource this, don't go through the Mind. Through the, through my feelings. I want an algorithm that with biometric sensors, is monitoring my health, 24 hours a day, without my being aware of it. It can potentially discover this liver cancer when it is just the tiny. Just a few cells are beginning to, to split and to spread and it's so easy and

Cheap and painless to take care of it now instead of two years later when it's already spread and it's a big problem. So this is something that I think, almost everybody would sign on to. And this is the big Temptation because it comes with the whole other be the long tail of dangers. I mean, this algorithm that the Healthcare System knows almost everything about you. So one of the biggest battles in the 21st century

is likely to be between privacy and health and I guess that health is going to win. Most people will be willing to give up a very significant amount of privacy. In exchange, for far better Healthcare. Now, we do need to try and enjoy both worlds to create a system that give us a very good health care, but without compromising our privacy, keeping the yes, you can use the data to

Me that there is a problem and we should do this or that to solve it but I don't want this data to be used for other purposes without my knowing it whether we can reach such a balance and like, you know, have your cake and eat it too. That's a big political question. What does that impact of this? Hope you guys are enjoying this episode. Wanted to give a quick shout

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Stories like a money, which I don't think most people think of as a story as being, you know, these tremendous things that control all of our lives. That point us all in the same direction that give us sort of a common code by which to live. How can people take control of the story that they tell themselves about themselves, which I find to be one of the most important stories that you engage in.

Yes, our identity is really just a story which we constantly construct. And and embellish. I mean, you can say that the entire human mind is a machine that constantly produces stories and especially one very important story, which is my story and different people, have different specialized in different genres. Some people build those stories of tragedy. Some people build their stories, a comedy, or a drama, but

In the end. I the self is a story and not a real thing and on the one hand, with all the new technologies, you get better and better abilities to construct yourself. But all what is today? A lot of the work, which previously was done in the brain and in the mind of constructing. My identity. My story has been out sourced to things like Facebook.

That you build your Facebook account and this is actually Outsourcing it from the brain. And you are busy, maybe four hours every day. Just building a story and becoming extremely attached to it and publicizing it to everybody. And you tend to make this fundamental mistake. You think it's the right. This is really me.

And so is that a mistake?

I'm actually really

curious. First of all, if you take something like the profile that people create about themselves in Facebook or Instagram. It should be obvious. It doesn't really reflect your actual existence. Your actual reality, both inner reality, in outer reality, like the percentage of time, you smile in your Instagram account, is much bigger than the percentage of time you smiling in real life.

And you know, you go on some vacation and you post the the images from the vacation. So usually you're smiling in your in your swimming suit on the beach with your girlfriend and boyfriend holding. And this cocktail and everything looks perfect and everybody's so envious. But actually, you just had a nasty fight with your boyfriend, five minutes ago. And then this is the image that everybody else is seeing and thinking, oh, they must have such wonderful.

Time and afterwards like a year later of two years later, you look back and this is what you see and you forget what was the actual experience? Like what what is

the role of Truth in the story that we tell ourselves about

ourselves? Very little,

do you think there should be more? There

should, there should definitely be more

and one thing outcome if we were like, I'm really going to make sure that the story I tell myself is objectively true.

It's going to be very, very painful and difficult. I think it is worth the effort, but it's just very difficult. We constantly, we constantly edit the this story. Just like the news on TV or edited and just like, you know, it's a bit like making a movie that you watch the movie in the cinema and everything is so seamless. Like, yeah, this is the story flows and then when you actually see how

Movie is produced. This is insane. Like, you have this tiny bit of a scene, you repeat it 50 times and sometimes, you know, you should this seen this since in to comes after a seen one, but actually, it was filled long before that. So sometimes you, you feel the breakup of the lovers before you film the first meeting for all kinds of of schedule, reasons and locations on the

The result is completely seamless and perfect, but it is actually made up from all these tiny, in tiny disconnected bits that have been, you know, this is from here and this is from there and we somehow glue it together, and it looks good. And it's the same with the story of our life. It's all kinds of bits and pieces. And only when you tell it to yourself or to somebody else, it kind of makes sense.

The cost of trying to stick with the reality as it is.

Is very, very high. It's very difficult. It Demands. A lot of effort, and it's often very painful because you have to acknowledge many things about yourself that you don't want to acknowledge them. People have this.

Fantasy of tunnel going to some Retreat and just taking out a week or two for from life to really observe inside to really explore. Who am I? What is my authentic self? And they have this fantastic notion that I will be able to finally connect to my inner child and I will discover my true vocation in life and I will discover all this.

Whole things about me, and when you actually do it, the first thing you usually encounter is all the things you don't want to know about yourself. There is a reason that, that, that you don't want to know them. I think it's worth the effort, but it's a very, very hard task.

All right on that. There's so many studies that talk about the more delusional. Somebody is self-delusional the more likely they are to be happy. You've said one of the big questions

Questions. As a historian you're trying to answer is as we've moved forward as a, you know, a species of society have we actually gotten happier? So there is some importance, it sounds like that you place on happiness. So why then would you want people to do that hard work of facing? The reality is recognizing the things about themselves that they don't necessarily want to recognize. Is that? Because you think it leads to more

happiness. I think that's ultimately, it is worth the price. I mean, the

Visions, comment at a very high price, also and not just to yourself, but to people around you, to the world as a whole. I mean, ultimately, this leads to things like Wars and like genocide and lacking a, and, you know, I come from Israel. I come from the Middle East. So I am surrounded by millions of people who are killing each other because of all kinds of fictional stories in delusions that they believe in.

So sometimes it's an important defensive mechanism. It's very difficult to live just with the raw truth, all the time, but the price of delusion and the price of not being able to tell the difference between fiction and reality, it adds up and eventually it adds up to things like a genocide and war, that sounds like a

pretty extraordinary price to pay. Yeah, I would agree with you there in 21 lessons is

What do we

do when we're faced with being put out of work? That we are one of the useless class? And we have to do this reinvention at a career level. You're living longer. Your career, life is 50 60 70, 80 years, whatever that looks like in a time where every 7 to 10 years like, it's just, it's a completely new world.

What do you think the human

capacity for that level of reinvention is?

Now, that's a very important question. It has little to do is immortality because even without immortality

We're heading in that direction even if people if the lifespan of remains as it is eight years. Every 10 years, you have another big shock. I mean people one of the things many people don't realize about the AI Revolution and the automation Revolution. They imagine it as some kind of a one-time event. We have the big AI revolution in 2025. You have all these truck drivers and taxi drivers and doctors and whatever. Losing their jobs. You have a few difficult years.

Use of adjustment. And then eventually, you have the new Brave New World of AI with a new equilibrium. And this is an extremely unlikely scenario because we are nowhere near the maximum potential of AI the speed in which it develops is only likely to accelerate. So what we are really going to face is a Cascade of ever bigger Revolutions in the job market. And in many,

Areas of life, relationships politics and so forth. So you have a big disruption in 2025. You have an even bigger disruption in 2035 and even bigger one in 2045 and so forth. And if you look say the job market, so okay, you were a truck driver and they no longer need you. But there is no demand for yoga teachers. So you somehow reinvent yourself at age 40. I'm no longer.

Truck driver, Naaman. A yoga teacher. It's very difficult. You somehow do it 10 years later. No, need of your conjectures. Thank you very much. We now have this amazing applications connected with biometric sensors to your body. They know exactly what you're doing with every tiny muscle. As you do this pose show that posture, no human yoga teacher, can compete with that. You're out of job. You have to reinvent yourself again as a designer of virtual world games.

And you do it somehow. But 10 years later, you have to do it again. Because this tool has now been automated and even if you get support from the government and there is all these education for adult system. The really big question is again, it's psychological. Do, do we as human beings? Have them mental stability and the emotional intelligence necessary to reinvent our

Ourselves repeatedly and you know, when you're 20, what you're doing is basically to reinvent yourself or to invent yourself for the first time, and it is very difficult when you're 30, it's even more difficult, but you sometimes will, but you somehow do it. But when you get to be 40, 50, 60, it becomes more and more difficult. You have more to let go of, I have invested so much in building. This career, this personality these skills.

To give it all up and start again from form a new, it's so difficult. So I don't know whether we can do it.

Yeah, that is the question that I think will ultimately be forced to answer and that brings me to education. So what do you think that if we're talking to somebody who's 18 right now? They're trying to decide, do I go to college? Yes or no. Should they go to college and if they go to college, what should they be

Um, that's a very difficult question. The first thing they should realize is that nobody really knows, nobody really knows how the job market would look like in 2040. So they should be suspicious of all these kinds of advices by people who pretend that they know what the job market would need in 20 years at the best investment. I would say is in emotional intelligence.

And in mental balance and these kinds of skills of how to keep changing throughout your life, how to keep learning throughout your life. Now, how do you learn that? That's very, very difficult. We don't have a college degree in mental flexibility.

But these are the most important tools. So, whatever you choose, you can go to law school. You can go to ballet school, but you should keep in mind that much of what I'm learning might be Irrelevant in the in 20 or 30 years. So whatever else I'm doing. I should also invest in, developing my emotional intelligence, my mental balance, my ability to keep changing.

Learning and Reinventing throughout my life. So maybe to give an image or a metaphor if in the past education was like building a stone house with very deep foundations. Now, I would say that education is more like constructing a tent that you can fold up and move to another location very quickly and easily.

That's a great analogy. So given that it's so hard to predict a future. You've talked a lot about the power of Science Fiction, science fiction writers. Walk us through that. Why what is the role that a science fiction writer can play or Storyteller filmmaker? Whatever the case may be

Allah lives in the 21st century, more than anything else are going to be new technologies, especially Ai, and biotechnology, and most people their understanding of the

These Technologies and their potential for good or for bad. It really comes from science fiction. The political system so far has done an awful job in understanding and preparing us for these kinds of developments. There is almost no talk in the political Arena about AI in biotechnology. The scientific Community is, of course, very deeply engaged with it, but most people don't read out.

Vehicles in science or nature and even if they tried, it would be very difficult for them to understand the professional jargon and all that their statistics and so forth. So that most people actually get their education about what's coming from science fiction. And this means at least, I think so that science fiction is now the most important artistic genre and it should also be the most responsible.

And one of the problems we science fiction, is it so far? It is done. Is so, so jobs, some novels and TV series and films are really amazing in the way. They explore. What's what could what could happen are ranging? Like not some of my favorites are my all-time favorite is Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, which was written back in the early 1930s. And I think is the most prophetic and profound.

Totally understand.

All right. So before I ask my last question, tell these guys where they can find you online.

I have a website. Why in Harari.com? And they can find me on Facebook and Instagram, and Twitter and all the usual places.

Awesome. My last question is, what is the impact that you want to have on

the world?

I want to bring more clarity to the public conversation on what's happening in the world. I think the too much of the public discussion is focused either on the wrong issues or is extremely confused and unclear. And people are flooded by enormous amounts of information, which they don't know how to make sense of and what I see my mission as