Welcome to the Rich. Roll podcast episode 79 with t, Colin Campbell.
The ritual podcast.
Hey everybody, welcome to the show. Well, today's guest is a biggie. I won't lie. I can't lie. I am very excited to bring this conversation to you today, and I have a feeling in inkling that it's going to bring a new crowd of people of the show, which is very exciting. So, I just wanted to
A few quick words for the new listeners out there about who I am, and what we do here to set the stage a bit, and for the longtime listeners out there. I hope you can forgive me a brief Indulgence. But anyway, my name is Rich rahl, I'm your host by way of background. I'm a former corporate lawyer. Turned plant-based ultra distance, multi-sport athlete. I'm a wellness evangelist that my public speaker, and I'm an author. I wrote a book called, Finding Ultra rejecting middle age. Becoming one of the world's fittest man and discovering.
Myself and that book essentially Chronicles, my journey of self-discovery, my Awakening, if you will, from a disconnected. Depressed, overweight unfit recovering, alcoholic to maximum Fitness and to accomplishing endurance Feats. I never previously thought possible in a million years, but the important idea is this. It's a journey to Greater self understanding and
Greater self actualization, that begins and ends with one simple thing, one simple idea, my adoption of a plant-based diet and it's an it's also a journey that begins and ends with the message put forth and popularized by the very important work of today's guests as for the show each week. I bring to you the best most forward-thinking Paradigm, busting minds and Health Fitness, Wellness, diet, nutrition, spirituality, creativity entrepreneurship and life transformation.
Ian and the goal. The goal is very simple to motivate and inspire you to take your life, to the next level to help you discover unlock and Unleash Your Best your healthiest, your most authentic self. So, T, Colin Campbell where to even begin the lion of the whole food plant-based movement. If you're already on board, then no doubt. You've read his groundbreaking book, The China Study and, or his more recent follow-up book hole.
You've seen him in his work profiled in the incredible documentary Forks Over Knives. And if these works are unfamiliar to you or your brand new to this idea of plant-based nutrition, then I urge you to stop what you're doing immediately and check out the books and the documentary Forks Over Knives, straight away. And to find those things. You can check the show. Now. It's a rich world.com on the episode page for this podcast, and I'll have links up there too.
Take you, where you want to go, as well as additional information about today's guest. So I can't say that. Dr. Campbell invented, the plant based movement. But what I can say is that, it would not be what it is today, without his groundbreaking tireless, work his life devoted to this subject. And he is quite simply put a Pioneer and a legend of the modern movement movement for sustainable wellness, and ecological systems and disease prevention. And
These reversal for the uninitiated T. Colin Campbell is a Cornell and mit-trained biochemist, and current professor emeritus at Cornell University who specializes in nutrition and toxicology specifically, the effects of nutrition on long-term health. And in particular, the causation of cancer and he's best known for his advocacy of a low-fat. Whole Foods plant-based diet, a vegan diet, so to speak. And he's the author of over.
Over 300 research, papers, on the subject. The two books. I already mentioned hole which was co-authored by Howard Jacobson, who's going to be next week's guest for kind of a two-parter and The China Study, which he co-authored with his son as I as I mentioned a minute ago, obviously and that has become one of America's best-selling books about nutrition. And dr. Campbell made his mark on the world with The China Study. Maybe you've heard of it, maybe
Haven't, maybe you have just a passing familiarity with it. So what is it? Well The China Study was a vast gigantic 20-year epidemiological study, which was described by the New York Times as the Grand Prix of epidemiology and it was conducted by the Chinese Academy of preventive medicine, Cornell University and Oxford University, and what it did was it looked at mortality rates from cancer and other chronic diseases from 1973 to 1975 in.
Fifty five different counties in China, and data was correlated with dietary. Surveys from blood work from a hundred people in each of these counties. And so why China? Why these counties? Well, the research was conducted in these specific counties because they had genetically similar populations. That tended over generations to live and eat in the same way and in the same place and the study concluded that counties with a high consumption of animal based foods.
Dudes, were more likely to have had higher death rates from Western diseases. Well, the opposite was true for counties that eight more plant Foods. So basically The China Study examine the relationship between the consumption of animal products, including Dairy, and chronic illnesses, such as coronary, heart disease, and diabetes, and Cancers of the breast prostate and bowel. And the conclusion, was that people who ate a whole food plant-based diet, people that avoided all animal products.
And I'm talking about Beef Pork poultry fish, eggs cheese and milk and people who were reducing their intake of processed foods and refined carbohydrates. These people will escape reduce or reverse. The development of numerous diseases is pretty huge, right? You might have seen President Bill Clinton. He became a vocal supporter of The China Study in 2010. After living for years, with heart disease. He undertook the diet and within a short.
. He said that he dropped 24 pounds and returned him to his college weight and was feeling great. He was profiled in my buddy. Yeah, Sanjay gupta's Sanjay. Gupta, who's the chief medical correspondent at CNN, did a documentary called the last heart attack and a couple years ago. I think it was 2011 in which he said that the China Study had changed the way that people all over the world are eating including the good doctor gave to himself. So this is powerful stuff. This is awesome stuff.
It's pretty huge, but I would be remiss if I did not point out that The China Study is not without its controversy. Either, in the wake of the massive success of the book, The China Study and Forks Over Knives and and sort of ancillary works that have that have been published. As a result of these Works critics have come out to challenge the findings and they tried to poke holes in the research. And suddenly, you know, I've noticed that it has
Become kind of this rather Vogue thing to offhandedly. Say like well didn't you hear The China Study was rebut was debunked. Didn't you hear about that? And this is one of the things that I had the Good Fortune to sit down with dr. Campbell and talk through and get his perspective on what's going on with that. You know, I mean, has it really been debunked and what is this really all about? I mean, who is threatened by and who stands to gain from attempting to undermine the Integrity of dr. Campbell's game-changing research?
So yeah, we get into all of that and more. Dr. Campbell's background and his journey to where he is now, and it's fascinating. And over the last few years. I've Had The Good Fortune to meet him on several occasions, but it wasn't until we spent a week together on the holistic holiday at Sea cruise last month that I had the opportunity to really sit down with him and really get to know him. And dr. Campbell isn't isn't one too often sit for such long-winded interview. So
Lee
was a great honor and a privilege to grab this moment with him. And I have to say that I'm very proud of this interview and my hope is that it will inspire and motivate you to think about your health and your diet and your lifestyle in new and different ways. Profound ways. That could have a gigantic impact on your future well-being. So, a final note, before we get into it. This is intended to be part one of a two-part series next week. I'm
Going to be bringing you. Dr. Campbell's co-writer on his book. Whole guy called Howard Jacobson and he's a great guy. He has a very amazing personal story and journey of his own and he sits down with me to share that and also to kind of fill in the gaps on the important work of dr. Campbell. So if you enjoy today's show, definitely tune in next week for Howard Jacobson, I think you'll enjoy that as well. So in any event dig in,
Earbuds in and let's spin the wheel and see where this leads us.
Enjoy.
I would like to open it up. If you could
for the listeners
who might be uninitiated or unfamiliar with your work, if you could simply synopsize the idea behind The China Study and
And what the book is all about?
Well, The China Study of course, is a book 18 chapters, but there's only one chapter, this actually devoted specifically to the China project itself. I have to point that out because the whole book is not just about the work in China,
right? And that's something I want to explore
with you, for sure. Is it's the rest of the book. The, the work that I was doing at least, if I can see 25 30 years before I got involved in chatter study, that really played a match.
Rolling by thanking decide to study. In a sense was getting to a place in time that I wanted to really have an opportunity to examine the population to see. If in fact the information we were getting there was consistent with what I already had been
doing. Mmm. So and so to take it a step back, I have this sort of running joke that in order to be a qualified specialist in the plant-based nutrition world. You must have been raised on a farm because it's you
Dr. Esselstyn, dr. Klapper. I mean I'm feeling very unqualified because I did not. I was not raised on a farm, nor do I have a PhD or an MD? But but you, you know, you were raised on a dairy farm and and this was very instrumental in kind of informing your early views about nutrition and health.
Yeah. It really was. I mean, I was Outdoors all the time for the most part. Is that even sleeping Outdoors of times, and I mean, I really was in the dirt, you know, plowing Fields hiring fields.
A raking, hay of milking cows. Milked my first car, when I was five years old, that was the thing to do. And and so, I was everything about the outdoors. It was my life. And I'd like the outdoors and I felt totally at home in the outdoors. I used to say, when I was younger, when I got big, I would not take a job inside. Just the opposite has happened. So I've really been living if you will in nature.
Always had a great deal of respect for nature.
And and so where did it begin for you in terms of being interested in in health and biochemistry
nutrition? That was kind of an accident in a sense. Not totally. I went to Penn State for my undergraduate work. And in that first year, as was customary in universities, we were given freshmen were given tests to for aptitude, you know, future aptitudes.
And I took this test and my dad wanted me to be a lawyer. They've only had two years of education. So I come from a family that for the most part, you know education was a big thing and any case he wanted me to be a lawyer. So I took the test and there were about six or seven or eight different paths. I could have followed law was in the middle. So I wasn't too happy with that one or two, but there were two Dad wasn't happy either Bono. So there are two things that I
Suppose I have a right to the top and one was to be a farmer. So whoopty-doo. I know how to form inside. The other was to be in medicine and that surprised me. I never thought about it, but it kind of stuck in my mind and started thinking about it. And I didn't particularly want to go into medicine because we lived with a doctor who you know was on call 24/7. He had an old Model T, Ford. He came to the homes, you know, there was a such things as being in an office that kind of thing. It was in the countryside.
And I didn't particularly want to do that for that reason. I didn't want to be on call all the time. Very naively. I have to tell you, most of my life was very naive from the very beginning. So but nonetheless, I took the idea to my work and attend state to say I'll be I'll be a veterinarian. I said that combined medicine with my agriculture background. So I ended up in veterinary school, a little bit early. I just after 3 years of undergraduate school.
But then we'll just out of the clear blue. I got a wire telegram, one day from a fairly famous, Professor Cornell who had been talking to my advisor at Penn State about possible students. And so, he offered me a full scholarship to drop out of Med, drop out of veterinary school, come to Cornell and I thought, boy, that's that's a pretty good deal.
Yeah. That's, that's a, you must have been quite the student. How did you make
such? Whatever? I don't know what it was. He obviously my advisor page. They passed on a good word about me.
And the thing about a too was what y seis kind of an accident happening time because they were going to pay me to go to school. I just couldn't imagine that or, you know, my dad he didn't have any more money to hardly see me through. So I thought that was a pretty good deal to me. So once I want to or Cornell thinking that somehow was going to get involved in maybe a medical research because it was in the area of nutritional biochemistry, pathology. Hmm.
I want there in, I didn't even know to be honest about it until after I was there about six, eight months. There was actually working for PhD. I never heard of appear State. That's how naive I was. So I was just kind of something pulling me in this way and that way and as I went forward and so I finished up that work in a year doing actually a masters because I was being pressured to get
to get your Master's in one
year. I did it one year because I was being pressured.
My draft board. I was classified 1A. And, you know, I had gotten a deferment four times and they said, this is the last time you've got to go. Mmm. So I had to quit that fortune. You have finished up my degree and what I was I went home went to the draft board and and I didn't particular want to go in the army just being a foot soldier. So I heard about the opportunity of lived outside, Washington heard about the opportunity of inquiring about being an officer.
Sir, so when took the test and there were some rare occasions when you could do that kind of thing a test that I was assigned to be a second Lieutenant scheduled to report to a hospital and Colorado or something. This is prior to the Vietnam War. The Vietnam war is that time was just starting and so I was ready to go, but then another professor Cornell rope me into meanwhile and offered me again, a full scholarship to come and do my PhD
Hmm. I didn't know this professor and he said come on back. He says you should come back. So I took her to the guy who gave me my commission that it was supposed to report to and he said well, okay go back. You know, it's no great pressures right now. We'll keep in touch. If you don't hear. If we if you let us know where your friend, your finish your PhD, you got to serve your time. If you don't, we'll contact you. So I figured well, I'll go do my PhD, come back and serve but that, but that time the Vietnam war is getting a little bit.
Hotter, right? And so I didn't hear from them, and I was sort of such,
as long as you're a student and you're getting your PhD, you're in the clear,
right? Well, not until I was 38. I was a little today, you know, I was, I had to take up that officer appointment until I was 38, which would have been about 1970 or so. Hmm. And so I was kind of waiting to hear from them. Never heard from them. And I learned later that there was a big fire and
Lois, they're burned up 30,000 records. Perhaps they're just records. Wine was one of those records that got burned up. Wow. So it became an unknown person, as far as the Army was concerned. Wow.
So we have these little amazing occurrences that are happening a phone, call here, a telegram here, a fire over here that are all kind of directing you, you know, without your conscious awareness,
but I was enjoying science in the meanwhile and
like you're getting your PhD in Biochemistry,
got a PhD at that time and
Nutrition with biochemistry right nutritional biochemistry.
And was there a any specificity to that or what was your
focus was an animal nutrition. So it's focused largely on trying to improve the lot of the animals as far as I'm sure she was concerned and I got offered a couple of positions as a professor. Even before I finished my PhD to go to an animal science department. One back to Penn State to be a professor of dairy science and so forth. And so,
I thought something but I didn't accept that. I didn't want to do that. But that's how I got interested in, is some other things and the more fundamental things. Hmm. So, I finally finished up and then did some work in a laboratory where I met my wife, testing laboratory near Washington DC, where near where I lived and then is what you want to hear all this story. I don't know. I said,
well, I mean, I'm interested in understanding kind
of how to tell your how
your
Is on nutrition. Dairy meat, Etc, evolved over time, from your perspective. When you were a student at Cornell to what you began to discover, when you undertook, what you described in The China Study.
Yeah, it was time went forward. I mean, when I was at in this position in this laboratory doing work right after my PhD, I was there for a short while nice experience, but
then I got offered an opportunity to come to MIT. Hmm. Who will buy a guy who had been at the FDA to organize a new department. They are in toxicology. So without going into all those details, I've got to sort of shouldn't training and toxicology to toxicological about chemistry essentially. Then after that it was an offer to go. Take a faculty position at Virginia Tech and a few other places. So I went to Virginia Tech there gotten started my research career applying for funding to do
Search and one I had to two tracks which is a little bit unusual for the day. And what did you get do? Some basic science stuff. And the other one was to work in an international setting, which is very, very applied. The second one. This International experience was an opportunity to go to the Philippines and helped organize a nationwide program at female nurse children, always had that kind of had an interest and kind of serving Society if you're will particular on an international level.
I don't know where that came from. But that's what my interest was in the Laboratories working. In sort of very basic biochemical, kinds of things. Well, the two happened just happened to join without my planning because the Philippines that indigenous and liver cancer, and immediate, Laboratories and liver cancer, go to the Philippines. I see this observation and the Philippines where children getting liver cancer, had a much higher risk of getting the cancer. In fact,
If there were from families who the few families who were consuming them the best diets high in protein. Mmm, and then there was another report it. So the rest is history, but
right, so this this fact, sort of lodged in your brain and kind of compelled you to decide to look into this further or to design a study to understand what exactly was going on. Right?
What? Yeah. Yeah. As my career past. I really got quite active in my science and fairly senior levels, actually early.
Iran at the national level being on an iceberg panels and things like that policymaking and I kept seeing things all the time that I found very troubling and I would ask myself. Why is this bothering me and not bother others? And when I tried to do some, if you will introspection, you know, what? Why do I think the way I think I often came back to the farm, you know, I would come this doesn't sound natural to me if you will. And so one of the first
No. No, I took a coarser Cornell when I first went, there are about and nutritional biochemistry and one of the major illustrations was, you know, this nutrient does that another nutrient does something else. And it was a big project at Cornell to time involving for nutrients as an impacted disease and chickens and calves of all, thanks, and I remember each one of those four, things did something specific and when, but when
You kind of mix those neutrals together, you know, then something different happen, right? So, I asked my professor. I remember at the time. I was just a classroom. I was just asking a simple question. But as I look back, it stuck in my brain because I said to him a, why don't we study that this way? He said we can't it's not
possible, Right? In other words idea of taking a more macro approach in a more global perspective as opposed to this very
reductionist. Exactly. So that was sort of left.
Number one, in a sense, as far as the size is concerned that things before more complicated than just thinking about going from A, to B, to go to see and so forth. So are biochemical research when I got involved in that, and I was lucky to get a quite substantial amounts of funding from the very beginning and it continued from NIH from NIH, right? Uh-huh. And so we had a big research program actually had a lot of graduate students and I had the freedom to be able to ask questions.
Designing experiments, see what it might look like. And any time you learned something new, you always have more questions, right? So that's that was the way it went and just kind of drifted in a certain direction. But the more I just found myself just asking questions that were a little bit offbeat. Yes, because I was just curious. I like the science and pretty soon. I just say you started to fall together and I realized there was a much bigger story here than just working on one single.
Say it a Time. Hmm.
But to bring it back to the specifics of The China Study. Could you just describe the essence of what that
was? Yeah, but the time The China Study opportunity came along and this was an early 1980s. I got a, an opportunity to was a letter sent to Cornell by the first senior scientist from China to come to the United States. And this particular gentleman. Dr. Jenn sure, sure. He
Had come from a famous family in China. Actually, in any case he was one of the first to come to this country. He was looking for a place to land stand. Sometimes government to give him this opportunity and he was sent it to Cornell a little bit and some others turned it down. Why? But I grabbed onto him right away and so he came and worked with me and it was probably one of the best decisions I've ever made. Because it turned out. He really was from a well-connected family in China for starters and high up in the
That has that's as far as science is concerned. And so at that time, the Chinese government had done, this Nationwide, survey of how much cancer existed across a total of something like 2400 counties was a massive undertaken, and what they were able to show was it. Cancer was very common in some counties and not in others. So we just was common sense just to ask her. What about you know, what's causing this unusual?
Concentration of cancer certain places for about a dozen different cancers. So I just we got together and I said, why don't we try to get an application to do some funding? Their, his government was offering offering a lot of support and kind we need Capital. So I would back to NIH again to see if I could get that funding. We did. We had the first project between the United States and China. The first research project at that time. So we went there and surveyed a large population. That was an opportunity for me to
See if in fact, the kind of information we might learn from that popular up from that population was consistent with these. Rather aberrant questions that I was getting the lavatory and that had to do. Those questions were, those creatures were basically that animal protein in particular was promoting cancer. Because that's what we're learning in the laboratory. Mmm. And so we did that, and measure just a huge amount of
interference, massive undertaking, and we have amazing people.
Did it take to sort of collect the data from this gigantic population of
individuals? Well, it wasn't so big. In terms of numbers of people with 6500 adults, plus the family. So we estimate around ten, eleven thousand people, which in those days, what it was big, but it wasn't that big really what made a big was a number of variables that we're looking at and I wanted to be able to analyze for just anything and everything because I really was getting interesting just
Did that there's more to this story as we generally do in science than just one thing at a
time. So the idea is that you're discussing in your more recent book. Whole these are already formulated and taking place in The China Study because I think it would have been very easy for you to Simply say, we're going to look at animal protein and liver cancer. And that's all we're looking at. And we don't need to look at anything else. And nobody would have batted an eye that is reduction.
Is science 101. That's the way we do it and and you could have gone on your way with that and dismissed with this idea of entertaining the possibility that an innumerable number of other variables could be contributing or having causative or correlative effects with the results that you were
seeing. Yeah. Actually we proposed for that. That Grant application. By the way, is actually something like that. We wanted to look at the relationship between the mineral selenium and its relationship to a heart disease in children.
That's why I'm part. I got the grant because I was focused at the same time. We were kind of Fortune way because into her party's interest in the United States getting involved in China and vice versa. So for some political support, you know, is able to get it that way, but it was focused on one thing. Hmm.
And so describe what you began to learn when you assess a this population with across all these variables.
Well, we ended up with
Collecting 367 items of information, as I would say, things measured in the blood, the urine, the food questions being asked. And so we had a big collection of a lot of variables. If you will, we worked on each one to make sure the reliable. We had ways of doing that, and then they were all correlated with each other. So, we end up with about a hundred thousand correlations about 9000 which were statistically significant.
To be expected that system right random chance of that happening. But in any case, we wanted to take those significant correlations and some others that might approach significance to see if there were patterns. I should say. Incidentally.
It was directed by me at Cornell University, but I was able to access something tastic colleagues at University of Oxford. Hmm, Richard Peto of Sir, Richard Peto. Now, Sir, Richard doll, some very eminent epidemiologists and and others in China. Some of the senior scientists there and plus another 20 for Laboratories around the world. And and and so, what were
some of the most significant statistically significant correlations that you
And
uncover. Well, it really coming back to the question concerning animal protein and that had been a lifelong or career-long question because we were able to in the prior studies were able to show that we could turn on and turn off cancer. Just simply by feeding of all things, the protein of cow's milk, which brought me back to the dairy farm in a sense. And and that was very provocative to say the least. Hmm.
And I think it's, you know, there might be a perspective out there that you were out.
Out to, you know, sort of prove to establish an objective that you already believed in, but you're coming from this dairy farm background and it had been your whole, you know, the conviction of your entire upbringing that, you know, milk does a body good that this is the perfect food, right? So, where did you start to begin to see kind of cracks. And in the firmament of that
concept was the initial observation? I think we did with the the there were some
Indian researchers who are done some laboratory animal studies that showed that at the time that I was the Philippines. And but they didn't believe what the God, it was published an obscure Journal, but I kind of believe that because it was consistent with what I was saying with the children. And so, as we went into that research, we looked at it at Great depth and I had become convinced, you know, by that time. We did it. So many different ways. That animal protein, actually increases cancer, risk, period and
So I was really interested. No, in The China Study. Whether there was any evidence for that and you might bias was to find the opposite, right? Really was, if I, if I had a
prejudice against it, and that's a very important point. You know, I think that that you weren't out to, you know, sort of Beyond this crusade to, you know, with this foregone conclusion that you already had in your mind. You went out and you surveyed a gigantic.
Of people across innumerable variables and remained open minded and to take what you just said. Hopeful that maybe it might prove the opposite. That's right.
Absolutely. I always always kind of swimming Upstream against my own sort of Prior prejudices. But finally, the evidence was overwhelming with respect to for starters with the effect of animal protein on encourage the development of cancers.
If you will, but then there were other questions that arose to to the same time and always having just doubt, you know, about the significance of this weird asked. I would want to ask broader questions. What if we eat animal protein? Containing foods? What about all the other nutrients that come along with it? What's happening there? Do they cancel each other? So, we started investigating other nutrients of the cancers, all the diseases, and the more that I looked, the more consistent became the data, everything seemed to all the nutrients and
Obey screws as opposed to all the nutrients and plant-based Foods. They seem to be doing opposite things and and their activities were sort of mutually supportive. You know, it's about chemical physiological level. So the story became for me, even ever more impressive was, but it was always coming from a position in my case and it says, so one was trying to disprove, right? You know what I had
observed? And this is this is a landmark Discovery, right? This is this had never been
Then sort of established or presumed or even conjured by anyone prior to you.
So an interesting question and I'll compliment just a minute. But yes, when we were doing all the research in the laboratory and because of my skepticism about a lot of things, what we ended up discovering were a lot of fundamental ideas that were against the rules against what I was teaching against, what was in the Box such as well, for example, turning cancer on and off by nutritional needs. I mean, that was a big deal.
And that it turns out we didn't do it just for the protein and liver cancer. We also did it with dietary fat and pancreatic cancer and things like this. So that phenomenon of thinking about the causation of cancer and later other diseases as a result of Simply modifying, you know, nutrient intake and and in the idea of actually reversing disease, right? It's the turning over reversing disease. Yeah. And and cancer. I thought this is incredible.
And so we are already learning other things too, like that the relationship between nutrition and jeans. A lot of people think, a lot of people still think that somehow jeans predetermined, whether or not we're going to get a certain kind of disease and what we are showing, no, it's not to case. We can have the change to cause a start, the initiation of events. But that is, we can control it by nutritional means, they sang another one sort of principle like, if they will,
A like protein, it causes cancer lesser for starters. One of the things that I was really being pushed to do to prove. My point was to find what the mechanism was in which as I'm was just was that. And so we started looking for the mechanisms and it had a series of PhD students suspended for five years. Lee each. I'm looking at a mechanism and it turned out there is no such thing. So that was another myth that I was sort of a sudden running across to. And so, a lot of the things that we learned really well.
Were I think the result of my skepticism?
Hmm. And it's quite astounding. And I think people can inherently wrap their brain around the idea of prevention like doing certain things whether through diet or, you know, exercise or what have you to prevent certain things from happening. But when you start talking about reversal, once, onset has begun that starts to get into radical
territory, really radical. Yeah, because whole medical profession.
In a sense is sort of supported by the idea that somehow you're going to be able to if you have a disease or about the start of sort of their, you know, the only cure that's sort of the premise. And that's the, that's the territory of the practice of medicine. Right? Well, we were saying what I thought we were saying, I'm very excited about this idea that this formula, this nutritional formula for preventing the production of future disease. Also works to treat exist.
Um disease. That's the future of this field. Just the whole idea could take this with people with disease or very high risk of disease and treat them.
Right? And so, so you're drawing these conclusions, these statistically significant correlations, and there's a decision at some point that this should not just reside in a medical journal, but that this should be shared more broadly through a book, right? So where does the idea of a book?
And how does that all come about
well for the from about the late 1970s until let's say 1990. I was getting into more and more trouble. If you will, by raising these provocative questions, getting a results to show things were rather different tonight. I was a subject of pretty intensive scrutiny to say the least from my college, but I was still succeeded in getting all the money. I wanted. I had to senior positions in my society and the
government and so that, yeah, the NIH is smiling down on
you through. I was thinking of going,
Great. And and, but finally, you know, it became apparent that I was supporting an idea that I never expected. I would arrive at an early 1990s when we got the results from The China Study. It's supported what we have been doing the laboratory New York Times. Got a hold of it, Jane, Brody, one of the leading people writing at that time for the times, a graduate of Cornell to she came up to interview me. She wrote the article. It came out the New York Times as the lead article in the science section.
The headliners said something like this is the Grand Prix of all studies. It establishes this out of something else, very provocative. Mmm, and it made me nervous because by this time, you know, I'm and I'm going to have sized establish a right, right. You don't go out and say these crazy face. And so, here are the times. I put it in headline. I had to say to myself, you're losing control of this story. Yeah. It's now is getting out there. And, you know, I didn't mind it really getting out there, shared it with a public, to some extent, but this was really provocative New York Times.
And I saw that, and I picked up the phone. I called Jana said Jane. Why did you put that title up there? Like I said, this is pretty outrageous. And she said he didn't do it. She said the editors wasn't at all. Okay, so it was that say about that time. So I came home and asked my wife. I remember this very well. She does. Do I say, are you willing to live in a double-wide? And because I figured no, even I, I said, I had the senior position of Cornell, the top nose put topmost position, actually an endowed chair or was
And all that sort of thing. And I knew that I was about to take a big hit one way or another, and she said, of course, and it was, it was, I don't know why. Yes. I just want to confirm it
with her. You could start stockpiling guns. And yeah bunker hunkered down.
I was driven as she was, I mean, as I said, go back and my background is very simple. We were really sort of far my wife. Similarly was that way? No education hurtful, you know, upper level education for her plan.
My or for mine and I Only Could rely on one thing and that was the truth. And so I get that my vibe from my father who was had a great reputation as a farmer in the area great integrity. He said, when you go out, don't always always tell the truth. It was to assess. Emblem was a hard-nosed thing and I just so, you know, there's no other way, so I obviously put my toe in the water and kept on going. And I can't turn back because that
It only becomes bigger and bigger The China Study itself, as a book was completed in my wife, a little bit about this is the, the arrows coming my way. We're becoming more and more intense. And so finally, she said, well once you were booked, so I said, okay. Well, we will but I kept putting it off and then she was getting a little more annoyed with time. And I got a couple of offers from book publishers and early 90s that if I would write a book that came from the New York Times.
Oracle, if I write a book in one case, the guy offered me a million dollars. Hmm, to write a book and he wanted to call to China diet and I didn't want to do that because I thought that was corrupt in the message and so he went back and back to New York and actually wrote the first chapter in wrote the outline and everything came back says, you know, I guarantee you a million dollars if you I spoke I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it for money. That was not the purpose and so that's just sort of sit there for a while.
From 19 as a ninety two or three or so until 2002, when I finally sat down into systems my wife, you better write that book. She said, you know as for the women of the children, the world for an oil other reason and tell my story. So rotor didn't start writing a book with my younger son. Who's now a physician without understanding exactly where this thing was going to go.
And all I wanted to do was just see if I couldn't have summarized from myself. Their story. That makes sense. Right? That was all it was. We did say in the later, part of part of the book that you don't have to believe all this science. I sit the rear just try it and
that's kind of an amazing thing to pass up. I mean, a million dollars so that you could write a book, the way that you wanted to write it and tell the story appropriately without inflammation or trying.
Trying trying to sort of frame the narrative in the context of a diet that people could purchase.
Right? Yeah, it was. And then actually have to did The China Study. We had the manuscript ready to go. We were shopping around. We had engaged, three other agents prior to that. Finally, landed on one. That was a good Agent. I thought that's the way to go. I didn't know anything about the publishing business. But in any case, this guy had been senior vice president random house, so he wanted to represent us.
And he took her, he shopped around to 11 different Publishers or manuscript and a couple of more for advances and I didn't want the advances because the story that they all wanted. They're all consistent on a couple points. They looked at it and they said, you know, you we don't need all these references in the public doesn't want to have all these references. Number one. They wanted to dumb it down to the tour.
Ten-year-old that was get rid of the science
called. Yeah, get rid of this stuff and then they also wanted me to put you know,
60 to 70% of the book with Russia vase. I said, I don't even wear the pots and pans are any kitchen level recipes. So, you know what? That's not that's not what I want to do, and it's not about the money, you know, so I remember a couple of occasions, I won't go into details here where they were really assisting, I was doing the wrong thing. And finally, we had the last meeting with the senior vice president at the company where this ratio should come from. And he had to straighten, my tie up and everything else in touch. Tell me how to talk and
You know, he thought just this is this is a winner, you know that we're going to go in and see have this opportunity to meet a senior person at random house. We got in there and she started saying things, I started talking about, you know, the grander scheme of things and how things work together. No nothing but not possible. This is she, they had published the Okinawa diet. I think it wasn't all. She said, are you saying that you got the same message for all these different disease? I said, yes, that's not possible. She got really quite angry. And so,
Jogging was it by Asian in turn got annoyed? He's always gonna have a big one. He got up and left us right because he, I have blown that I had blown the lid.
No big advance from her. No bigger than sand rat, a mouse. They
both said, you know, you're okay. Do the book? You're not going to sell more than three to five thousand copies at the most, you know, they might just put in libraries, a standard stuff. So we walked away from 11 Publishers. Wow, just because of what they wanted to do and the yes,
they weren't. They weren't saying. No, they just wanted to. They wanted to
Correct. What I was gonna do. Exactly.
So I didn't want to do it. So finally, what to a small publisher who allowed us to do what we wanted to do, even, he said, you're not going to sell more than five or ten thousand. He says, finally. He said, if you could sell 15,000, I think it was 15 to 18 thousand you. So I'll be happy. I'll cover my cause mmm. He said, but that's, he was just hoping that we could sell that or knows. Well over a million so they
just cut some amazing. It is it succeeded a million?
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oliver.
But 25 languages foreign
languages. Wow, so it's but it didn't start out that way. It's just in sitting down with Howard. He told this
amazing story. Well, Howard that Howard wasn't involved in the
child. I know. But it's like he was server counting the early days of, you know, when The China Study initially came out and how he was the third person. Oh, yeah. Well I can. It was seven weeks after it. Had come out and and yeah, I just presumed that, you know, when it when it came out it came out big and strong and fast.
Fast. And that was not the case. Like it took a while before anybody was paying attention and your little publisher actually was sort of right in there in the first few in the first few weeks or these early days after
publication. Yeah. I saw an Amazon where these reviews are written, you know, obviously I'm looking at that's all new to me and This brilliant review came out, you know, supporting the study and I saw this guy's name is Howard Jacobson, and I think I know him, you know, because prior to that
How he had met at it? Now, there's someone else and I so I thought it was true. And of course the
third will you have a chair trap memory because Howard's claims that he stood in line among seven other people to meet you at the veg source of that and could even imagine how he could possibly remember meeting him, but
that's well. I think if I'm not mistaken, I met him through another person other than John Allen
mulliner. Oh, maybe that's the case.
Yeah any case we had a short meeting obviously.
Yeah, but I clearly a became the person that I thought it was. Mmm. And so that review state on the Amazon site throughout just about the entire history of the, of the ten years,
right? If you and you're one of the early reviewers, good or bad, those reviews tend to stay at the top. That's right, you know, once the, once it really starts to
Cascade, unfortunately, that was a good one. Yeah, it's good. You're
very well right now. Yeah, very positive. But what? Where was the
Moment where it kind of tipped the scales in terms of getting out into the public. I mean, was there one thing that occurred that kind of changed just things in terms of getting the book out
there. There are certain individuals Gary Player than pro golfer called me up right after it was it came out and he said, I'm Gary Player. I couldn't believe it. I was talking together player, but he said that he was going to be on the Golf Channel with a big audience.
Science and wanted to know if he could talk about. I said, yeah, help yourself is great. Fantastic. He told me what he's going to do. He said I'm going to get down on my knees and just talk about this book. I mean, he was really impressed with that, I guess. And so in fact, we watch to see when this happened. I was actually by this time with Howie. Dr. Jacobson. And so we watched how and we've watched Gary Player get down and you know, with the praying position and says America everyone in this country should read this book.
Something like that. That was a, that was a good
hit. Yeah, that's pretty good.
That was pretty good. And then Bill
Clinton. No, publicist is going to get you that know and then we'll Bill Clinton came here. How does the built how does Bill Clinton? Come into the equation? Because this is
fast. So this is about to see three years after the book was out. And I was on the board with a close friend of Bill Clinton's former governor of North Carolina. Jim hunt the board of what. No,
Antony of my son and I had found, okay. And so Jim hunt was on there. They're cheap. Actually, we had some pretty key figures on there. But Jim Honda, former governor of the Carolina was there. He in? Turn was a close friend of Clinton. So Jim came and asked me if I saw it a couple copies for Clinton. So I did, I got a handwritten note back from President Clinton. Thank me for the book and he, but he never, he didn't follow up for a couple years and it wasn't until the time of his daughter's wedding, right? That he had another problem.
Hard, and she interns The Story Goes. She in turn wanted him to do the Falcon, so he could pretty enthused about it. And I got a call from
one of his Close Associates, who was at the wedding and said, the Clinton had come to the wedding and was carrying a book of with him. That's what I was told. And I heard just before the scene and thing came along, but he had the book wasn't even shown it. Everybody and including Barbara Streisand, who wanted to know, what is that book? Your keep on talking about this is I'm down and this is the second information before the CNN's. And and so he told her and her husband is allegedly said, second hidden information again.
I said to her, you know you I got that book for you two years ago and you never read it. So these kind of stories I always get on these stories and finally, then he's on seeing it. Hmm.
And this is the Wolf Blitzer in her look, really tired. There was the the last heart attack show with Sanjay Gupta, but it was, I remember that Wolf Blitzer interview where he talked about wanting to be healthy for his daughter's wedding.
Yeah. It was and he got bigger has really good results and gave a real Enthusiast for the side.
Idea, yes true.
That's amazing. And then we're in the timeline does Forks Over Knives, come into the equation,
at about that same time as I say, I think about it 2009 possibly. This is four years after the book had been published a young fellow and California had attended one of my lectures. This fellow having some resources decided that he really loved it.
So forth and so on. And I recommended that he also talked to my friend esselstyn. Mhm, because in the book, we I knew absolute, then he hadn't at that time, really had too much attention. I so we went and interviewed him for partly for the book as, you know, and and others. And so I recommended he goes here him to he did. And the next thing he wants to get together and put a film out and he said, he wanted to get the best possible director and
And producer and he introduced me to them and want to get me to confirm the possibility of making a film, you know, based on starting out at least for The China Study. That's where it started night. I so it wasn't involved in any of that planning, certainly not in the resources or The Returned or anything like that. I didn't mean I haven't gotten any Financial return address. I have no equity position, any of that stuff, but he followed us, the crew, followed us to China, to Washington to all
Of the place back to my farm, the farm. We had when I was a kid. And so, they went ahead and did the film. And of course, that film has turned out to be pretty
fabulous. Light amazing. Yeah, and it talking about it with Howard. I don't think anybody could have predicted what a phenomenon, it has become. I think it was the maybe it's still as I'm not sure, but for a very long time, it was the number one, you know, watched documentary on Netflix or tomorrow and selling
On Amazon, or I don't know exactly what the statistics are but phenomenal impact that, that movie is had that has. And what's interesting about it is, it's not just about plant-based nutrition the findings of The China, Study. Dr. Esselstyn's
remarkable work with
reversing, heart disease through plant-based nutrition. I mean, when you see these angiograms, the before-and-afters so compelling but it's also about this amazing friendship that you have had for many years with
You're esselstyn and it sort of begs. The question of sitting where you're sitting now.
You know, having devoted both yourself and dr. Esselstyn having devoted the better part of your lives to this this Quest. And and this message that you're putting out for so many years, having it fall on deaf ears or being criticized or being maligned to. Now having you know, sort of the the sort of audience or reception that maybe you thought initially you might get right out of the gate. How does that feel? I mean is that
Does that give you a sense of vindication, or? Maybe that's a little bit of a negative word, but it's been a long road. I mean, you've been you. And Jesse have been at this for a very long time and it's taken an extremely, an extremely long time for the momentum to pick up to the point where people are now receptive and hearing it and it's become. This thing is become this movement.
Yeah, if I get I mean obviously I'm very gratified, you know that this is happening and as time passes it because deeper and deeper and meaning it for me and it relates more to more than just, you know, working with the biochemistry inside of cancer cells if you will. And obviously, it's a led to, you know, the possibility of writing another book and should know. And at that time, when I start first started to write this,
Second book that verse I got called whole, I had in mind the first title was used the word control. Because for me, I had a lot of experiences. A lot of Kickback, in from institutions and other people about this crazy path. I was on and it was very discouraging at times, but I couldn't, I couldn't turn around. And I saw, he spent three weeks at a resort and not a resort, but of beach house down.
Before we started right hole. It's going like control and it started out just documenting all of these these ridiculous experiences that had the lies, you know, they existed in policy and all this sort of stuff. And I wrote about 60 Pages, you know, and that period of time and I was going to document that way. And all of a sudden struck me. This is really stupid. Why am I talking about all this horrendous Kickback? They made no sense. And so I said, well forget that.
So I decided to go back and write a book to oil, more positive trying to understand, you know, rather than talk about all the negative stuff coming my
way. And I mean, it would kind of come off as sour gray. That's right.
Exactly. And I just didn't have any very tasteful that whatsoever. I want to write something just asking myself. Is there something about this idea that's missing from the from our work in science? And what I thought about it and I started out with three to Define three.
Words, nutrition medicine health. I didn't know how I was going to Define it. But I knew it wasn't what I was teaching and how about taking over the years and stuff like this and or researched it and show that. And the reductionist idea had been mentioned The China Study, so that was there, but then I didn't know how to describe the rest of it. So funny how it's holism is something something like that and I saw none want to spell it out and went to three dictionaries to learn. If you know, I was going to spell it dub a chola. Yes. M it always has been spelled, hom.
Yes, I am and I thought I'd find an alternative spelling I couldn't find it. Right? And so then I decided you know, I'm going to create my own word here, put it put the w foot movement prices around it and called a holism. And then I got into reading some friends, a total amateur, you know, in the history of little bit of religion. If you will, the ancient Greek times and stuff like that, got some ideas. And as the more I thought about the concept of hallway and this,
This is pretty good, you know? Because it really just all of a sudden is like you're stepping into a new world, new
paradigm, almost taking a Step Beyond holistic into, yeah, uh, holism. And the idea of taking this global view of understanding and embracing the idea of the incredible complexity of nutrition, diet biochemistry human physiology and in appreciation.
Think for how difficult it is to draw conclusions. From a reductionist approach that fair to say
this. Very fair to say. In fact, now, I'm really kind of immersed in the idea of really challenging the whole concept of what we regard as science. I mean, sciences and biological and the biological world in the medical world so-called science, its larger reductionist, of course, we all know that it's caused a lot.
Lot of harm and a lot of difficulties. And but I understand the need to do reductionist research because that's what I was involved into in the beginning but it's sort of the threads of the tapestry. Everybody can work on their own thread, you know, and make a big deal out of it. What their temperature you might look like, but they have no clue. Now. These cetera wasn't their
imaginations? Threads impact each other.
Yeah, so it's only, you know, by putting all these threads together, do we begin to see?
Something new and something exciting. And so I kind of like that metaphor as much as any other.
So, how do we, you know, how do we move in a New Direction with this? I mean, what is the solution? I mean, I would presume that you still maintain that in a weird reductionist approach is appropriate in certain circumstances for certain purposes. Sure, but how do we, how do we take this? Newfound idea that you're proposing and Implement that into
A better way of approaching science.
Well, you know, reductions research. I don't want to come back. I'll to know is actually be opposed to production of research on certain. I'm not because those we have to have this register, Victor tapestry as fair enough and I'm glad there are reduction of scientists building. My airplanes that I write on or building my computer's, you know, they, I want them to be precise. I want to defeat, you're doing the best. They possibly can is to put that together, but in biology and medicine. All one needs to do is
Go look at the cell.
You know, the tented between whatever, it is 10 to a hundred trillion cells. We have nobody just look inside of one of those cells and see the extraordinary complexity which in itself every cell is just virtually almost like our universe is the micro Cosmos sister the macro Cosmos if you will and and see this enormous Integrity that occurs in sympathy it occurs within the cell.
And that's for me in a nutshell. What this is all really old and we're as to where we go with this in the future. I think there's spiritual is a really big thing. People have to simply try it. Like we said in The China Study, you don't have to believe me. Just try it. Hmm. And that
that and so what is it that they're
trying? What about just eating a whole food plant-based diet? Okay. Yep. Without adding back the oil, the fat and sugar that they become accustomed to just see it in the hole food plot.
Based diets and awkward term. Hmm, not exactly veganism or vegetarianism because they come up short, you know in this but nonetheless they were going in the right direction. And I we said, we now know, and thanks to my friend, dr. Esselstyn and dr. Ornish and some others who were from and
dr. Greger. Dr. Klapper.
Yeah, especially but it's aselton, really assess something, orange and dr. Klapper. Yeah.
There was we, but when what I got really enthused about their work as much as anything else that you confirm, what we had to do it in an animal's reverse in cancer, which is just about that further. Someone could have on their mind, reversible nutritional main something, that really kind of sealed. The deal for me and many ways that biologically speaking. We were turning cancer on and off by nutritional means that we were doing it by multiple neck, sort of
Six sort of approach and that's that's and controlling genes in the process. That's not all those so-called principles that worked on years ago all of a sudden to come with the light. And when I went dr. Esselstyn called me after the New York Times article and then I found out what he was doing. Dr. Cara different has a
heart disease aspect.
Yeah. I said she she you're doing exactly and he did his thing or from his perspective and it was really nice. We came to the same place.
Right. Yeah, it's beautifully orchestrated. We're running out of time and I could spend the entire afternoon taking up all of your time and you've been very gracious to to spend this time with with us, but I wanted to I think I would be remiss if I didn't.
Raise the issue of the critiques of The China Study the the the sort of dismissals that are out there. And there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that are coming from Dish, different kinds of nutritional protocols. And you go online. It's very easy to be confused and there's conflicting opinions and it can kind of create a paralysis in terms of what to do and and and like many things in life, something comes out that's new and revolutionary and
Takes a while for it to come into the mainstream and then it's celebrated and human Nature's did then after 5 minutes later. Let's see if we can pull this down and attack it and and there are certain contingencies out there that that have proposed that The China Study has been debunked. It's like become this popular thing. Well, didn't you hear the time The China Study has been debunked and and I'm interested in.
How you whether those kind of comments and what your response to that is?
Well, first off, I should point out those people who are writing. This kind of information have no training in science and nutrition. Science. Number one. They know experience you're doing a kind of experimentation. They don't publish they don't they're not being held accountable for what their words.
They can say anything they want to say in science. We develop some evidence and and if we're going to be worthy of consideration, we publish it and is being reviewed by peers and we don't publish it. If it doesn't pass that muster and my work was was reviewed extensively first off and actually competing for funding, only one of every six applications gets funding and we just continue to get funding for 27 years old at one place.
I had a lot of success in getting funding and so I had a pretty good name. Actually, you know, in the scientific world for doing good science, then when you publish and I have over 300 some Publications that were peer review. So I'm held accountable for my words. Let me tell you even buy my critics, these people running this stuff have nothing. None of that. That's that's a that's a very important point to make good writers, great writers, but they don't have this background. They can say anything they want to say. And they say, just
It totally, untruthful things. But let's get. If we come down. There's a couple of observations that the people who have all these Atkins like diets, if he will and paleo diet, not all those books different names, different authors different times. They're all basically the same thing. They're all talking about a low-carb diet. That's become the mantra today. Well, since plants of the only kind of who's essentially, they have carbohydrates, really serious, amounts of carbohydrates and them, this is
Has been an attack on the recommendation of we should be consuming vegetables, fruits and Grains as a means of Health from the very beginning and Adkins came out in 73 with the first book. That was following the McGovern thing that, you know, said lead, eat less animal food. So the low-carb diet, the better name for that. They should be called a high protein, high fat diet. Hmm. And there is no evidence. I find no evidence of scientific literature or any place else. Did you can actually take that that kind of diet?
And treat and reverse disease. Mmm. It's simply. It's the one
thing that always had to be back to a whole food. Plant-based diet is that is the only protocol that I'm aware of that actually has had significant success reversing illness and I don't think any other protocol can make that claim, you know, suddenly, you know, in recent years. It's become very Vogue to talk about, grass-fed meats and putting butter in your coffee and the supposed
Are all myth and fat is not your enemy and all of these sorts of things and and and I'm mystified. I'm mystified as to how this could suddenly be the case. I mean every cardiologist I've spoken to, you know, every medical practitioner that I respect does not adhere to these to these ideas that are out there. And I don't know whether it's there is some science to support something that I'm not understanding or whether people just want to hear good news about their.
Bad habits, but what is your perspective on
that? Well, it's always possible since they're not being held accountable for their own sort of interpretations. If you will, they're able to choose rather reductions kinds of ideas and threader together to make it sound like a halfway decent story at times. Some of them can and the good color good calories. Bad calories is one such book where the writer was a good science writer journalist, but he pulls from the literature, you know.
Vacations are very center, guys, pulling together. Makes it sound like a reasonable story. So as used in reduction of Science and that sort of fashion, but the point is that, as I say that cannot treat people with disease and get them, they can some of these diets, of course, lead to some loss of body weight and to me, that's pretty consistent. That's that's one thing and to some extent, the blood cholesterol is come down a bit, too. Hmm. But in reality, with the passage of some time most of them draw balls.
The wagon, don't continue it from some short-term, you know, adverse effects. But in the long term,
No one could tell me that they can find societies of large, groups of people who are consumed, a high protein, high fat diet, for all their lives, and seeing lower rates of
cancer to other camps. Don't, you know, about the Inuits?
The anyways, it's always see. They come up. Well the Inuits of course are the people who tend to die early for starters and it major, cause of death is trauma, so they don't quite live into the period when they might otherwise might get problems, but there has been research showing.
In fact that there are problems not quite as severe as much given how much protein and fat they presumably consumed. There's it's it's not all or what just claim to
be. Well, I suppose that like they're there, they may be a genetic outlier also because they've adapted in a certain environment in an isolation for many years. I mean there could be but it, but it's such a statistically insignificant. I mean, it's such a small group of people to, but there seems to be like an
That amount of focus on that particular Community as opposed to the planet
at large. It was there's another group that's a better illustration. I think this is the Maasai and Africa, blood meat and milk. All right, that's her lies. So after said they don't have any problems, their cholesterol levels are low and they don't have any heart disease and so forth. And so on turns out their principal person who was the first reporting, the so-called low cholesterol levels actually 1973 when he
Back in had a chance to examine 50 massage who had died. Otherwise, he just wrote in his conclusion. All these men had atherosclerosis equal to that of old American men. Hmm. So they actually do not, in fact, have the really low cholesterol levels, you know, don't, you know, don't have that the effects of atherosclerosis. This is the man who first told his often gets colder. George man was his name.
NG, you know, as telling about the Messiah, having his Remarkable Health advantages, but in 73, he probably something quite the opposite. So, to explain this, in a sense, they actually are able to apparently, they exercise. They suggested inordinate amounts of exercise, obviously, something like yourself. And so, the exercise is a big pleasure, big role. And they actually are able to form these collateral. Vascular.
Work around some of these lesions possibly and so they're able to survive and extend, you know, and do quite well in this for for some period of time. They don't live very, they don't live again to that age where we can really get good data on that point, but
It's this story about the Messiah and those kinds of people. Oftentimes, you go back and really check to see what evidence is being used. This was sort of a citation of some early literature that, you know, somebody made some observations that weren't reliably examined. Certainly true with - I did, I had the first, the first massage student to come to the west to do a doctor. She came to work with me of Cornell. I gave her some money to go back and her father had been a doctor or a guess or traditional
The Maasai group. And so I asked her to go and collect some more information, you know, to see. Of course. I want to know more what they're really eating. And of course she came back and they were eating a lot more tubers and Roots like that. Then, previously been reported. Hmm. Then I happen to also be friendly. Got to know one of the leakey's, the wife of one of his sons who lived in in the midst of that group for 20 years. And when I was talking to her about that and that's fresh. She said, it's a safe bet.
At 20 years of her life and them aside tribal region. She said that their claim that the only meat milk and eggs was not true. Interesting. They do eat a lot. I mean that's very
clear. Right? But who are gathering and
agrarian do certainly do some
rather presumed interesting,
but that's the limit of my knowledge. I can't tell you too much more about the right.
All right. Well, we got to wrap this up, but I want you to tell us a little bit before we go about this new movie Project.
It's
underway. Yeah, the the force of Nuys has had great success. My older son has actually engaged the services of the director 147 Isley from Chris Anderson. And also one of the cool foil. Co-producers of Fortune was John Corey, quite an experience, fellow his retinue John. Do you know, John he's on very impressive John and was lie and they both
Are excited about what's happening here. I can't tell too much at this point in time. Where actually there's a one event in particular that's going to set it apart. It's happening right now where we're sitting here talking
today. You're such a tease. You're teasing
us now. I'm not changing it. I'm not changing. I just got an email this morning. I can't wait
until tonight. I go order. So
so I can't say I all I all I can say is I'm at Susie a story from what this is turning out.
To be because for seven eyes were sort of telling the public here. Here's some information. That's kind of useful and what you might use your lives and so forth and so on. And it was it's became very popular, but it didn't really answer the question of why. Why has nested but not been told before this goes to that question. Hmm, and it goes right to the heart of it. I can't
imagine not even told in the sense of why, you know, why is it been so difficult to penetrate the American?
Consciousness with these ideas.
Yes, they should. What right? I'm not become really, very interesting. The history of this whole field of nutrition and Cancer Research in particular and often ask myself. Why is it taking so long, right, you know, we cuz we had this information that's another whole story. We had a lot of this information back in the 1890s.
Whose brilliant? It's fantastic for giving us resources. They had I got 11 books. In fact, written by a gentleman in the middle. 1800 s. Who was a doctor until his 41. He was a surgeon, a doctor night when he was 40. Watt got to be aged 41. He became a vegetarian.
And then he wrote a total of 11 books. Hmm, eventually was elected, the Irish Academy of Science and he these washer incredible. He's taught. He warned against going down the road of using Pharmaceuticals in those days. He's suggesting that cancer. For example is not a disease. I thought it was at as a local disease, you could treat very specifically. It was a constitutional disease. So he talking about a whole but you're talking about holders. Mm-hmm.
And he was writing his extraordinary, interesting
text and but he wasn't able to
connect with the public, he got forgotten.
And so the idea is, I mean, I would presume that this gets into politics and money and all sorts of private interest and things like that, that that sort of work together to kind of
Prevent certain kinds of awareness from penetrating,
it was doing the Advent of the Industrial Revolution. It really was. And so a lot of things would be an adventure like the microscope and bring refined and other kinds of instrumentation to spectrophotometric sort instrumentation. Be able to see things that consecrations and so forth. And so on radio isotopes came into play in the late eighteen, hundreds and were being used to track, you know,
Their course of nutrients and other things through the body. And I'm, you know, some very powerful instrumental methods were coming to the fore and people in size one to play with these things. And it was, it was fascinating stuff. Right? So the ended up looking at individual things, individual nutrients, and all the rest. So the birth of reductionism, their birth of Romanticism, I have got a lot written a long paper. Actually almost a book on this whole history and I found some really
Amazing statements made during the eighteen hundreds and early. Nineteen hundreds and the founder of the Cancer Society, American Cancer, Society, founded in 1913. He had already had a name for himself in the area, tuberculosis. He founded that society, and advocated that one of the things this new Society should do as far as casters concerned, pay some attention to nutrition, which are totally off the charts. The radical. Yeah, and he three years later, he's
Off the board of the organization that he founded. Wow, and in 1922 nine years later. They held the First National Conference International Conference. Actually to the presenters. There were more tasks with the idea of basically really criticizing this
founder. Hmm.
Interesting. This is this stuff has been going on for a long
time. Right? Right, right. And as are these ideas that are going to be addressed in this documentary?
Or it's a sort of current context. Not not so much of that. Is this is you have the current content is more a drift of of that kind of thought.
Yeah, I wish I could tell you more, but we'll have to wait and see supposed to be out in September. I don't want to say
except are really. That's that's that's that's not that that
far off. No, it isnt. Its most of us filmed and we're still you know, it's uncertain end. Right? And I don't want to overstep my bounds and you know, for that reason either because it
The events of I don't I don't see how much about to transpire today is, I don't think it's it's going to hurt hurt the film at all, but one never knows. The world is an unpredictable place
that it is and that is a perfect Cliffhanger to conclude conclude the conversation. So we will look forward with baited breath to September. Do we don't? We don't know what the title is yet,
though. It has the title. I'm not particularly fond of it by
Myself, but others seem to like it for some reason, it's called plant. Pure Revolution, plant pure Revolution. I think the mouthful, I'm not sure sounds little bit academic. Just some people, sounds a little bit too provocative. I guess. I don't know.
It's not prepared to say. All right. I wish I could have a cat named Freddy had Howard Jacobson with me to come up with the title. I'm sure with all his metaphors and things like that. I'm sure he can accomplish something better. He come up with something. Well, it's called The Working title.
Maybe that will change by saying what? Alright? Alright. Well, dr. Campbell. It was an honor and a privilege to sit down with you. Thank you very much. You are an inspiration. You're a gift to humanity and I appreciate your work tremendously and it's been fantastic.
To be able to spend a little time with you on this
course. I really thank you for this opportunity. So tasty, your stories also. So inspirational is beyond belief. I have to say number one, but number two, I just would like to add just a little footnote. You know, there was a famous study that was done in early nineteen hundreds by a physiology professor at Yale University on the question concerning the role of a plant-based diet. He didn't call it that on athletic performance. Now, I didn't know that.
That not amazing results. Published in two books, one and I think 1905 in the other 1907. I believe, huh? His name is Russell Chittenden CH ite India, and he did it all himself first, right? He started using this kind of date felt better, and all the usual, then he got some other fellow professors to join him to do this and they felt better to and then he worked on some young students who are coming into the oral TC program. At Yale. Hmm. Getting trained for the
Xmas physically and otherwise, so he put them on a plant-based diet essentially not they do that. They had come from home on, you know higher than operator. Put them that here acquit. He'd put in through 15 straight and endorse test at the beginning in October of that year. Uh-huh. He came back in April. Same test again. You could see the numbers for swoop up. All of them was from impressive. When they went on this diet. He got criticized by his fellow colleagues.
Yeah, that would work. You know, that's that's crazy. They improved because there are being trained, they had nothing to do with it. I said fine. So we went out and got some couple of All American athletes and really into, as he says, already trained already trained peak of their can take of their condition as he called it. Their numbers were near the top, you know, they were already at that level, right? He put them on platforms fight and it just jumped way
up. Wow,
that was published in at that time. And then
can you still? I would love to read that. Is there a way I can get that information?
Russian for. Yeah, I would love to be able to
so you're living proof of what, you know, he
writes. So what I'm saying is nothing new. It's
been why don't we say that you've taken a
hundred years ago. You've
taken it to a whole new whole new level. But yeah, I think that what you have done in some other, you know, obviously world-class athletes come to know to have.
Just there's some amazing athletes out there doing incredible things and in no small part due to
Your tireless work, so it's just beginning. It's just because we're getting it too. So it's exciting times. I'm optimistic and I think that there's a lot of work ahead for myself and for you, but it's very encouraging to see what's happening. And to be, for example, on this boat and to have the experience of connecting with so many people that are having incredibly dramatic.
Eric changes in their life by adopting this New Perspective and it's touching and you know, it's a it's a it's a life work. That is fun is fun and and meaningful. So, thank you. Thank
you.
All right, everybody. That's our show. I hope you enjoyed it. Again. If you want to check out the offerings of dr. Campbell, go to Rich world.com on the episode page for this episode. They'll be some hyperlinks in the show notes that will take you to all of his amazing work. If you want to dig deeper and learn more. I appreciate you guys tuning in. I know you have lots of choices vying for your attention, lots of content.
Out there and it warms my heart that you would take time out of your busy day, to listen to this podcast. It means a lot. And for those of you who want to support the mission support the podcast support, the plant Power Revolution. The best way to do that is to tell a friend about the show. That's it. The show's free. It will always be free. If you want to take it. The extra step. The best way to do that is to use the Amazon Banner out of Rich Roll.com for your next Amazon.
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Appearances coming up on April 30th. I'm going to be at the Burlington Performing Arts Center in Burlington, Ontario for an event hosted by a devika health. That's going to be a big event. They're expecting a lot of people, they'll be t-shirts. There are going to, I'm going to assign books get my keynote and all that kind of stuff. So there's more information about that on the appearances, menu, tab on my website May 2nd. I'm doing the holistic health diary retreat with Julie in
In Ontario again links up on my site for more information about that. It's going to be basically a whole day of awesome Wellness oriented stuff. It's going to be really cool with the girls from the holistic health diary podcast and and Jillian, who are really cool and doing amazing things in Canada. The event that was previously scheduled for May 4th in Toronto, the soul transformation seminar. I just got an email that that is being postponed. So for those of you out there,
R, who were looking forward to coming out and seeing me in Toronto on May 4th, that is not happening. Now. I don't know what it's going to be rescheduled but I will keep you posted on that kind of bummed but it is what it is man. So that's it. I want to get want to get more plant-based. You can take. Dr. Campbell's course on plant-based nutrition at ecornell. Again, a link on the show notes, or you can take my course, which is The Ultimate Guide to plant-based nutrition. It's on mine.
Green.com three and a half hours of streaming online content, video and online community Forum. Lots of downloadable tools and awesome stuff. We're proud of it. We like it. So check that out. And of course, go to Rich world.com for all your plant power Provisions. We've got cool plant power t-shirts. We just started offering beanies and trucker hats. That's a plant Power Revolution on them. So you can wear your affiliation proudly and we've got some nutritional
picks up there too. So go check out all that stuff and you can read my musings ritual.com. On my blog. Follow me on Twitter at Rich role at Rich, Roll on Instagram as well. Facebook. All that stuff. You guys know what to do. So that's it. I'm out of here. Thanks everybody. I will see you next week with dr. Campbell's comrade-in-arms, Howard Jacobson and until then live wide live deep, peace plants.
