Transformative Principal

Welcome to transformative principle. I'm your host Jethro Jones and can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones over the past several years. You've heard me talk a lot about the Mastermind and I keep thinking it really is the best professional development that you can get. So what I'm going to be doing over the next couple of weeks is just reading some of the things that people have said have been most useful to them from our hour together. So

Here's the first one the discussion about a high school principal, even though it was at a different level and one person said this week. It was the quietest our I've had in the last week. So those are just two reasons of what people are getting out of the Mastermind. If you're curious about it, check out Jethro Jones.com Mastermind and just schedule a call and let's chat about whether or not it's the right fit for you.

That's just her Jones.com Mastermind.

I've got a book coming out how exciting is that? It's called School X and it's all about helping you as a principal be a designer of your school and not just a manager. So I hope you'll check it out. You can download the free chapter at school x dot me and want to get it hit reply to the email and tell me what you think looking forward to sharing that with you. That's cool x dot me this episode is brought to you by John cat educational.

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I am very excited to be talking with Derek severs who is an entrepreneur who founded cdbaby and has written a few books. My favorite book that is written is called anything you want, which is 40 lessons for a new kind of entrepreneur, and he is now writing and doing cool things taking long walks in Oxford England, and so welcome Derek to transformative principal appreciate you coming on

but thanks to throw. Thanks for having me.

So I'm excited to talk with you because you have taken a different path than you have a son that you are. It sounds like you're homeschooling. Is that a correct way to say that

as of a couple months ago? Yeah, and like we all are gout right exactly. But before that know, the reason we moved here to Oxford England is for the schools. We really picked this place on Earth. We moved all the way from New Zealand to Oxford, England.

And for the schools and up until two months ago, he was in what's known as really one of the best schools in all of England for his age category.

That's very exciting. So you

move there and one of the things that you've written about on your website many times is this idea of giving your son your full attention and letting him lead the way in the things that you're doing, especially with creative play and things like that. So can you tell us about how you view parenting and educating your kids and not just educating as in sending them to school, but also teaching them the things you really want them to know.

So first, I have to give this caveat that he just turned eight. So I still feel like I'm really new at this. I like I may be an ask me in 20 years. I'll have more Authority on the subject and more to say but as of now just beginning to dabble in this so my approach to parenting has been to encourage.

Focus and encourage him to just dive deep into whatever is interesting him. So he grew up mostly in New Zealand. We only moved here to England a year ago. So he's 027 was New Zealand for him, which means he grew up mostly outside and that really shaped him in a big way for one because we would do very low stimulation things meaning like we just go out to a

place in the beach wrote place in the forest. We're still a grassy field and just play there for hours and hours like five hours. We just sit in one spot just playing with shells playing with Driftwood making little things out of leaves and sticks and whatever and

I always wanted to make sure that we did everything for as long as he was interested in it like never saying like come on we need to go, you know, because I want him to enjoy I wanted him to feel that life lesson. I like whatever you're into just keep going. Like don't feel that. Well, I've been doing this for 30 minutes or 60 minutes. I should stop sometimes I worry that the pace of school lessons.

Gives that kind of typical time like every 30 to 60 Minutes Or I guess it's my like, you know, 60 to 90 minutes. We change subjects kind of like the way when we all see a Hollywood movie. We kind of expect it to be somewhere around a hundred hundred and ten minutes, right? That's we just get used to like that's the length of movie should be if it goes much longer than that were like, ah, come on what's going on? It's movie so long, right? So I really like the idea of him always diving into whatever he's into for as long as

As possible any and also broadening his inputs. So deliberately like while we're playing with Lego, I'd be playing some really like avant-garde Bulgarian or Indian music behind him while we were playing and just letting these sounds soak in to his mind to kind of open his ears and things like that because I was a musician. I'm a nerd, you know, but all of that is just parenting. Yeah, I guess education.

Different subject. Well, I really do think that there are

closely intertwined because whether you intend to or not you're teaching lessons to the things that you focus on and so right in your situation you want him to have that Focus for as long as he's interested in it. Why was that important to you way back when he was just young enough where you could start doing that early because if you started doing that now and hadn't been doing that kids wouldn't know what to do with that and so right

That so important early on for you.

I guess just a personal preference. Like I feel that if you're focused you can do anything. If you're not focused you can't do anything anything good, you know, that's that's just my own value system. Right? I mean there are other things in there too, like empathy and consideration. There's a really sweet story when he was like two or three years old. We were out playing in a playground somewhere and a kid fell down and started crying.

And I think his parent wasn't hovering over and I said, oh, hey that kid fell down. Can you you should go give him a hug and tell him it's okay and try to help him you okay, and he just ran over there and like put his arm around this kid and like patted him on the back and he's like, it's okay. It's okay here I can help you. You're just so cute to see like wait till two or three year old doing that, but it was because I told him to write and then I think one more time maybe six months later again. He was only three or four years old that kind of situation.

And the air like some kid was sad and crying about something. I said. Oh look he's crying. You should go put your arm around him and and and help him. He's oh, okay. He went running over there to help and general like ever since then since the age of three or four now, he just does it automatically any time. He sees anyone get hurt or sad anywhere. He immediately like a rushes over and puts his arm around them and psych. It's okay.

Okay, and I helped it's alright, are you okay? And it's amazing that I can just see that direct link?

From two specific examples why it were I encouraged it. And now it's just a habit. Even at this age. I he still does it like just the other day. We were like a few months ago. We were at a coffee shop and a kid like leaned back and fell out of his chair and even though his parent was right there my kid just even without like just an IT instant reflex as soon as the kid fell out of his chair and started crying. He like jumped up out of his seat ran over there put his arm around him and said, it's okay. It's okay, like wow, that's so cool to see them.

That yeah, I wish I could consistently do even more things to encourage the values that I think are important.

Yeah, I think that that's that's really great in that and I've seen with my own kids similar things that when when you when you teach them how they should act in a certain situation. They're more apt to act that way in the future. I want to go back a little bit to that piece about Focus because

That

story of empathy made me think about an example in my life that's happening right now where I've come from a musical family. My mom plays the piano and organ beautifully and her Grandpa created a School of Music in Salt Lake City, Utah a hundred years ago, and it was very successful. And and I took piano lessons when I was a kid, but then didn't like it because I was being forced to do it basically is how I feel is that because I'm rebellious

Just by Nature. I didn't like that that being that pushing me into that. And so I wanted my kids to be into music also and realize that I need to set that example and say this is you know, this is how I'm choosing to spend my time or how I think you should spend your time without it being like you must do it or else you're grounded like can't go out and play until you practice piano. And because that for me never worked in that does work for some people so I started

Playing this year and have been practicing every day. We have a keyboard in the house and I'm just using an app to teach myself basically to get me to where I was when I was a kid and it's been really cool to do that and I'm enjoying it a lot because it's allowed me to be creative. But then I've noticed how my kids are starting to do it as well and they practice Eric honestly for more than the quote-unquote.

Wired 30 minutes per day that I had when I was a kid and they are it seems like they are always playing and I just find it so fascinating because they see me doing it that they think they can do it as well. And and it's one of those things where I believe they're going to be musicians because it's there and nobody is pushing them to do it and they're going above and beyond what I would expect them to do even my

This daughter has Down syndrome. She just cannot get her fingers to do what what she wants them to do, but she loves music and so she persists and continues to play every single day and gets mad when she doesn't get a play as much as she wants and she's not even doing it. Right but she knows that it matters and it's important to me and she wants it to be important to her as well. At least that's what I think but she's she's doing it and so that idea of you know leading by

Example teaching them how you want to act and then allowing them to stay focused. I think those three things when you combine them together are really really powerful.

It's such a good example. I love it. Okay. I feel like I didn't answer the second half of your question about like how I'm educating. My son like we talked about parenting and I kind of stopped there to make the division between what I considered just parenting and education, but the

And I've had education on my mind lately because of the school situation. We're in right now, you know in May 20 2010 at up until two months ago. Like I said, he was at the best one of the best schools in all of England, but he didn't like it. I mean, he liked it better than school. He was at before just a little bit but just all in all like do I have to go and just everyday just kind of felt like drained and crumble crumble crumble.

And these last two months without school. I feel he's actually thriving more than ever. He's so into it and I just see him advancing and thriving which makes me want to learn more about unschooling right like we're spending full time with him. So I'm just seeing these natural tendencies. So he he loves memorization. He's really good at memorization. So we use on Chi aan Ki which

A flash card software and you we've been using that for a couple years and he just enjoys it. So wanting to raise Little World citizen on the front of the flash card. I put the picture in just the picture of a country on the map like no words on the map just the Shaded region of a country and he memorizes what country that is just by shape and at this point he can do like over a hundred and thirty countries in the world.

World just by seeing the shape of the country on the front of the flash card. He just gets it really quickly. You just you know, flashy show Amigos Azerbaijan flash Estonia Clash Peru flash Vietnam flash Indonesia, you just he recognizes these and he actually like loves dancing while doing it, right so he's like, give me some more give me some more dad think everybody. I just want to keep dancing. Um, but then if you give him a word problem

You know, like whatever Jennifer went into the store and bought six loaves of bread for 30 cents each. How much did she spend he's just completely stumped. So I don't know at this point whether I should be maximizing his strengths or working on his weaknesses or both but here's what I have noticed. Is it when he sits down to do schoolwork, right? Like now that the school is kind of back in session through

these kind of crappy online things. He does these required assignments, but he's so distracted like when he's sitting down to do a worksheet that school is requiring everything will distract him every little bird out the window every paper clip on the table will be fascinating to him, but when he's making something himself

Or like learning or reading through watching a video. He's completely riveted and completely focused and his memorization thing like he can recite word for word thinks he heard once a month ago if he was engaged while listening to it or watching it, but if he's distracted like these school worksheets, he can't tell you what he did five seconds ago. And so I'm just noticing this huge difference between him

nourishing by doing whatever's naturally interesting to him versus just floundering through doing school assignments. I'm not really sure what to make of it. It's all pretty new to me.

Yeah, you know, that is something that that's that is exactly what I what I tried to coach schools to do more of is to help kids be engaged in their learning by allowing them to choose the way that things work. And so instead of saying here.

These things you have to do we do it more the way you do parenting. What do you folks? What are you interested in focus on that and focus on that for as long as you can and what we're going to see with kids is naturally their focus is going to move from one thing to another however, you can get an intense amount of learning quote-unquote done in the time that they're focused on that one thing and so when you when you start with that premise and you start leading them down that path then you

you create the opportunity for them to be engaged in something that they care about that they're interested in and they're going to learn so much more from that and I've done that in school where we've taken kids out of the regular classroom put them into groups or by themselves or whatever and had them find something that they're interested in and when we do that what I never Tbilisi is that they care more about that than the work their teachers are assigning they go deeper with that than the work there, too.

Are assigning and they will often finish the work their teachers are assigning quickly so that they can turn their focus back to the thing that they're really interested in. Yes. And so that's that's one of the reasons why I've I've been wanting to interview for so long and was so excited to see that you're doing podcasts again so that we could talk about this because as a parent you've been doing that with your son and you're seeing how school, you know is in my mind basically killing creativity in your

Over there in England where Sir Ken Robinson was when he first started talking about how schools kill creativity and that really is the case because they you know, the point is not to be creative and figure something out. The point is to get a an assignment or worksheet or whatever. It is complete that and receive feedback on it to know whether or not you did it right according to the teacher and then move on to the next thing that they can tell you that you did right or wrong.

And that's just not a a great way for kids to learn. It's is demoralizing. It's boring. It's difficult and nobody likes it and yet that's how we do education all over the world and and it's not the best way to do it. But it's the most efficient way if what we're trying to do is to, you know, turn kids out through a factory model, but that's that's probably not what you want for your son. That's not what I want for my

Kids, you probably have different dreams for your son than being just like everybody else,

First I think that any focus is good. Like any interest is good. Meaning any interest to the kid has is good. Like the Mastery path to anything is great. Whether it's video games or juggling or beatboxing or skateboarding or surfing or poker or whatever when someone gets so into something they should be

encouraged to master it like to help them see that they can become one of the best in the world if they focus and deliberately practice at that thing and that made mean like helping them get a good teacher that can observe and instruct but I think all in all it's like helping them to take it seriously, right and I'm saying this because of my own flashback my own look at my past that

My thing is a teenager was heavy metal guitar.

And is a parrot it can be tempting to see that as a waste of time like God Derek's just won't stop playing his guitar. Come on. You got to focus on something real but

In wanting to be great at it. It helped me Focus so much in every aspect of my life. I didn't realize this till recently why I look back at teenage me.

Like I was practicing 6 hours a day doing these deep finger exercises and every day looking for ways to improve as a guitarist and I was reading every interview with every successful musician looking for Clues on how I could become one to which then led me to reading books like Tony Robbins, like self-help books trying to master my life so I could be the successful person. I wanted to be

And then that eventually led to reading books on business to understand how I could make money doing my music because I really wanted to be a successful musician doing nothing but music and all of this was outside of school, of course, like school high school is just teaching world history in English rhetoric and stuff. I didn't care about so I did terribly in school.

But even later it music school when I think about it, like I went to Berklee College of Music like a specific music school, but even there the classes were mostly teaching things like big band jazz arranging and things that weren't directly applicable to what I was doing.

But I just had this dry. I was just massively focused on being a successful musician.

It wasn't till I went back to my high school 10 years later for the 10-year Highschool reunions 28 years old and I went back.

And I was shocked at how they all seemed. So lost like they were all just wearing suits and what I would ask them what they're doing. They're just pushing papers around in some mid-level management job for Motorola or whatever just paying the bills like they were 28, but they all looked 40. They just looked so like dead and grown up and at the time I was a full-time touring musician.

And they would they were all like blown away that I quote unquote followed my dreams and my reaction was like yeah, what did you think I was kidding? Like I always knew exactly what I wanted. I was always just laser focused on what I wanted. I wanted to be a successful musician and that's all I've done since I was 14 was focused on this one thing and yes, I was only making, you know, like money-wise like what a thousand dollars a month or something like that while they were making more money.

In their corporate jobs, but it wasn't about the money. Like I was focused. I knew what I wanted out of life. Um, so yeah looking back now, I didn't really lift up my head in wonder what I wanted to do with my life until I was 40 years old like age for okay with 39 age 39 was the first time since I was 14 years old that I wasn't sure exactly what I wanted to do everything.

From the age of 14 to 39. I was laser focused on exactly what I was working on mastering guitar led to mastering music led to mastering business led to mastering programming led to mastering life skills. And you know when I say mastering, I mean trying to master these things nothing I am a master does things but the point is I never

I sat around watching TV getting drunk going to parties and all those time-wasters that people do when they don't know what else to do. Like, I was always always always driven to be great.

And so yeah to finally answer your question. I think to be driven is the best thing that we could help someone be no matter what it is that they're focused on it. And sorry. I don't know if I communicated this well enough like I think that it doesn't matter what someone's focused on it can be even as shallow as video games. It doesn't matter if they're on the path to mastery.

Anything is better than that just a drift lost thing that makes people just sit around and do nothing and get drunk and hang out feeling lost. So how to do that how to help someone be driven. No. No, I don't know maybe probably by demystifying it no by showing them the path by showing them. It's possible by helping them get step-by-step so that they can see the path C the

But yeah, I think it's so

Yeah, and and to bring that to an education perspective because it really is in my opinion. If you in education, we're trying to get kids to achieve Greatness by being you know, Jack's of all trades or whatever the case may be and the reality is as you were reading those and you've already said it, you know, you were reading those interviews with great guitarists and then your focus on being a great guitarist yourself LED you to be able to focus on being a great business.

Owner LED you to focus on being a great programmer. So you could create your business that that would eventually sustain you financially and so all those things the common thread in all your experiences was your focus on Mastery and getting as good as you possibly could at something and focusing on that one thing now all the other things like you learned how to read better. You learn how to understand and retain information you learned

All these other skills that we think are so important in education you learn those through that process of Mastery, but not only that you probably understood those things and I'm not you know, I don't know guitarist. I couldn't ask you anything specific but I could probably ask you something about a specific guitarist and you could remember it even though you read that interview 20 years ago and the

idea I know every little tid bit of trivia and everything. I read since I was 14 about all those musicians. It's

See

how much weird trivia. Yeah, you're right. I retained it all

and but you didn't retain the things, you know about world history that your teachers wanted you to to learn however your son because he's interested in it is paying attention to the shapes of countries and is probably going to know the shapes of countries for most of his life if not his entire life and so it's really

easy after

you've gone down that path of Mastery to see where the things are that you've learned and for

schools we can do that really easily because we know what you're supposed to learn and we can go tack those things on on the back end and say Yep. This kid learned this. So for example, we had these this program called Synergy of my school where kids can choose to do whatever they wanted to make the world a better place and they got to define the world. They got to find better. They got to Define what they were going to do really powerful experience. They had three hours over two days during the week to do that.

Wish we could have given them more time to see what they could have created. So we had some kids one group of kids that wanted to create a social network to prevent bullying at our school. And so they spent all their time working on that social network trying to figure out how to create a trying to learn how to code to be able to code it all that kind of stuff. Now did they ever actually succeed know what they didn't they didn't have the time to resources or anything to succeed but they learned so much they learn so much about research and

and about programming and about JavaScript and all these other languages that they had never known before they learned about user end-user license agreements and terms and conditions and things like that that they would have never thought about before they learned about how to write a simple if-then statements to have somebody report bullying on that system so that they could eradicate it and like all these things that they learned that I could find ways to tie them back to

Content we are supposed to teach them but those things they're going to remember forever and they don't need me to go through and say yes you to bless them and say that they've learned these things because they already know and my feedback and validation of that is really meaningless to them because that learning process is already completed but schools don't they're not created that way that's what I try to do to help schools to to establish systems like that so they can do that.

That because that allows kids to be creative and as someone who's created your whole life, you know that that is so important. And what would you say to someone who's saying how do I get my kids to be more creative in my school?

I love the example you just gave I mean when I look back at

My schooling there was no connection from school to my interests. If I like school was just a it was the opposition. It was the hurdle. I was a bad student of all the required subjects. Like I really I was a bad student. I failed a lot of assignments and I would only get a passing grade because I would do well on the tests, but I just kind of refuse to do the homework. What is only when I saw

Music school as the key to getting what I want from life like to be a successful musician only then did I suddenly become a straight A student going above and beyond on every assignment because now it was applicable. That's the word that I heard by the way in that story you just gave

is it everything was now applicable and when I think back about all my teenage obsession with being a successful musician everything I was reading I was immediately applying it like this is immediately applicable. I need to know this to help me solve the problem. I'm wrestling with right now. That's the best way to learn. I like even years later around the age of 30. That's when I started programming.

But it was from absolute necessity. Like I had already started CD Baby without knowing any programming and then it just quickly ballooned and grew faster than I could handle. So all of this manual labor, I was doing four hours a day. I had to figure out how to automate it. I had a massive problem of hours a day of manual labor. I needed to figure out the solution now on how to automate this and that's how I learned programming by absolute.

The city and I feel bad for somebody that's just kind of like well, yeah, I guess I should probably learn how to program. I guess. I'll take a coding course. It's like if you don't have a problem to solve it's all just going to be this foggy abstract stuff that you're not really sure what you're supposed to know, you know, I think we need a problem first a mission and then all of the learning based around that to help you solve that problem.

So yeah, my school itself gave me nothing. Even when I went to music school. Even Berklee College of Music is kind of his famous music school. And at least when I was there, it just wasn't very good. The teachers weren't very good. They were often discouraging they were often just these kind of burnt out musicians that would show up late to class pretty disorganized and but I was so driven that the school itself was like just a stepping stone for me like the school.

Not teach me anything and I almost dropped out because of it. It was only when I took a summer off and I decided like you know, what if I know in advance the school isn't going to teach me anything. Then I can just go back and just use it like a library. It can just be the resource where I can get the information I need but I'll just expect nothing of the school itself. So yeah, I went back for my second to end remaining years. Just expecting nothing of the school and that's when I got the most out of it just because I

Used it as a resource, you know though, I mean all that said I mean all this talk of schooling. I know I know this is your this is your world in this is your thing. I gotta say like I'm 50 now and I graduated college when I was 20 like school is just all like a distant teenage memory for me. I think in the big picture I've learned so so so much more

Since then that I ever did in those few years I was at school. So in hindsight, it just feels like School itself was really not important at all.

Yeah, and and that is exactly exactly my point that if you it's about learning for your whole life. It's not just about those 13 years that you're in, you know regular K-12 education, but it's about figuring out how to learn for your whole life because

You know School itself is just an institution. But if we think of it instead as learning and problem-solving then it totally changes the dynamic. And so if you went to school and instead of you know your teacher saying well, you know for world history class. So you need to learn these things. They said what is it that you really want to spend your time doing and how can we be a resource for that? Like if your high school teachers would have said, you know use

the school the facility that we have to start recording your own music and to learn how to get better at it. You would have had a totally different experience with school, right?

Probably. Yeah,

and so that's how it was when you finally took that approach to the last couple of years at Berkeley when you could you could use the school as a resource and and that's where I believe we need to get to as far as education goes because it's not enough to

Go through a process of you know, checking off standards. We really need to teach people how to do what you just have been talking about this whole time, which is become a master in the things that you are interested in and a really focus on those things until you get good enough at them that that you feel like you have mastered them or that, you know, you're done being interested in them. And you know, that's perfectly natural there may come, you know,

In a couple of weeks or years or months or whatever or your son is like yeah, I'm done with flash cards. I'm done with you know learning about countries and I don't really understand that anymore that may happen. It may not but you know, he may not care about people outside himself at some point and then in my mind to the next task is to find what the next thing is that he cares about and go all in on that and all the things he's going to learn along the way even when

Switching to different things that he cares about are completely worthwhile educational Endeavors. That should not be diminished or thought less of because they are not what Traditional School

is, right? Right. Mmm, you know, I try to remember it all of this the nature and nurture contribution. I grew up just kind of thinking that everything was nurtured.

Sure, I didn't believe in nature. I thought we are all are entirely of our own design our own making it's interesting when years years years later in my 40s. I read a few books on the subject of Happiness written by these psychology professors that have a PhD in the subject and it was fascinating to read that.

fifty percent of our happiness is just

genetic and only 50% is through our own actions and life circumstances and they found this over and over again and Decades of studies. The F 50% of your happiness is just in your DNA and the best you can do with all of your attitude adjustments and positive thinking and even your life circumstances and where you live and all that stuff is only accounts for 50% of your happiness.

whenever it one of my best friend's is this Australian woman that whenever she hears me obsessing a little too much about parenting like trying to be the best parent. I can or my kids school, you know, the fact that I told you that I crossed the Earth to go from New Zealand to England just to raise my kid with better schools and stuff like this.

This Australian friend of mine is one of the smartest people. I know she's a scientist in Sydney and not just a scientist. But just one of those like whip-smart in every aspect of life, she learns languages like nothing, you know, she'll just visit Japan for a few weeks and come out speaking conversational Japanese with people. She's just one of those super bright people and she constantly reminds me. She's like Derek never forget like

Grew up in the worst get a crap part of Australia to the worst parents didn't like kicked me out when I was 13 and I grew up in foster homes. I went to the worst schools in the poorest parts of the Outback and look at me like all this stuff you're obsessing on doesn't matter that much. It's going to account for some things sure but a lot of people just grow up being who they are going to be no matter what you do and

It's a nice counter reminder to all the stuff we try to optimize

right and so, you know going out of our way and trying so hard to do something a certain way, you know, there are some things that we just can't overcome and and it's okay. Once you realize that that you know, it's not the end of the world when that happens and I think for someone like you and some like me and people who are listening who really try hard to be the best they can.

As something sometimes fall short and feel like all hope is lost and sometimes are so good that they are frustrated by other people's inabilities to be as good and I think that story shared helps helps me understand that, you know, it's okay to be wherever you're

at. Hmm

an appropriate way to to manage that. I don't know if that was your intent, but that was what I got out of here.

Yeah, it's nice to just remember.

Like everything I'm doing it's going to count for something but you know, hey, I can relax a little bit. It's not it's not a complete Make It or Break It situation, right? Yeah,

so I want to thank you again for your time with this interview Derek. This has been awesome. The last question that I asked everybody is what is one thing that a principal can do this week to be a transformative leader like

you are.

I think that actually listening to kids instead of talking at them is the most important thing. Yeah,

I think that is fantastic. Thank you so much for being part of this the website. If you want to learn more about Derek is go to sivir's SIV ERS dot org slash now, you can see what he's currently working on. You can check out his podcast and anything else you'd like to promote Derek

now. I'm not here to prove anything. Just go to sidroth.org and

Send me an email and introduce yourself. It's theories and I like doing these interviews is for the people I meet.

Yeah well, and that is exactly how we met four years ago and emails a couple times back and forth since then and I just really appreciate your generosity and your time. So thanks for again for being part of transformative principal. Thanks, Jessica.

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