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Hey, it's Ryan. I first got an Amazon Alexa a couple years ago. I have it upstairs in my home office. And this is when my first son was younger. He wanted to listen to this music. I thought some music would help and I said hey Alexa, will you play Bon Iver, you know, the singer songwriter and this weird music started coming out of the thing what I figured it out is that it did misheard me. It was playing Bonnie Bear, which is a Bon Iver inspired kids music.
That actually my son loves and we've now listen to hundreds of times. So anyways, I'm very excited that Amazon Alexa is sponsoring today's podcast. I'm always looking for things that make me more efficient that make my life easier and Amazon Alexa is great at that end especially with this because Amazon Alexa is offering a special smart lighting bundle to daily stoic listeners having smart bulbs around the house just makes things easier. I like being able to shut the lights off with the command and you don't have to clap you just say something.
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Every bundle includes an echo dot smart speaker and a singlet color changing light bulb that's amazon.com daily stoked to get 20% off and take advantage of this amazing. Smart home deal. Amazon.com / daily stoic. Hey, it's Ryan holiday. Welcome to another episode of The Daily Show podcast. You know what I think say they don't tell you about having kids is how humbling it's going to be. I was putting my oldest son. He's homeless for
Or down to bed little less than a week ago, and he was pretty tired. And so I would just read a book with pictures and I didn't want to read another book with pictures because it was just gonna you wouldn't go to bed because you'd be too excited. So I grabbed something from from the shelf that didn't have any pictures and it happened to be a copy of a ego as the enemy which he grabbed off my shelf and put in his room. And so I started reading from a random random page in the ago as the enemy has of course would happen.
Fell asleep in about 8 seconds flat and I thought okay. You must have been really tired but then the next night I tried it again. I didn't even pick up a different book just went straight to Ego and was asleep almost before his head hit the pillow. I think it was six consecutive nights that reading him something. I had written put him straight to sleep, which of course is a bit ironic given given the title of that book. You know, you work you work very hard.
Hard on something the you think you do a good job and and it manages to impress your kids only in the sense that it's so boring that they go directly to bed. I was trying to tell you need this book this book paid for your house. So how do you not find this interesting? And of course, he was already asleep almost 10 years ago. Now, this is before I'd even put out any books. I hadn't even I don't even think I maybe just sold.
Me I'm lying. I was driving from yeah, I just sold it like like a few weeks before but I was driving from Northern California. I was picking up a car for my parents and driving it back down to Los Angeles and then I was going to drive it from Los Angeles to Texas and I texted Neil Strauss who had gotten to know a few months earlier. Actually Neil Strauss was was the man who introduced me to one of my favorite novels of all time, John.
Antes ask the dust. But anyways, I just started to get to know Neil and I texted him and he said hey when you're driving through we should you should go out and have dinner and so I drove and I was there a little early and we were meeting it at Cafe Habana in Malibu. And so sitting at the bar waiting for Neil and there's another guy sitting there and we started to get to talking and he was telling me about himself and I don't remember what I said. I don't really remember he said but it was just funny you you're talking and then
It happened that that that he was also having dinner with Neil Neil being famous for bringing groups of people together often without a heads up. He Camille did this to me a few years later. We were supposed to have lunch in Malibu and Rick Rubin showed up. That was Neo. But anyways, the guy I was sitting next to at the bar. Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman as it happens is my guest on the podcast today. So so Scott and I go way back.
He's had me on his podcast a few times. You may be familiar with his name. If you haven't listened to his podcast or if you haven't read any of his Awesome books, you may be familiar with with Scott because he gave me a wonder I interviewed him briefly and he gave me a great quote in perennial seller about the creative process and actually in addition to all the things that dr. Kaufman is a is an expert on creativity as one of them.
He wrote a book the philosophy of creativity and another one wired to create unraveling the mysteries of the creative mind. He's a psychologist. He was previously at neat at NYU at the University of Pennsylvania. Most recently at Columbia University his new book transcend. The new science of self-actualization is a sort of a reimagining of Maslow's hierarchy, which we talked about in the interview, but it's funny. I heard about Scott's new book. I was in New York doing
During the launch for Stillness and I was doing an event with James all teacher. James is Club stand up New York. And so James said hey, why don't you come over a little bit before we'll talk and then we'll walk across the street and go over there, and I walk into James's apartment is a beautiful apartment there on the Upper East Side Upper West Side. I don't remember, but I walk in and guess who's sitting there Scott Barry Kaufman. So this was meant to be I was really glad to talk to him. He's a great writer. He also had me on
His podcast I don't know how the timing is going to overlap. But he had me on to talk about the new book lives of the stoics The Art of Living from Zeno to Marcus Aurelius, which you can pre-order or whenever this comes out. It may already be for sale. But Scott great guy who calls himself sort of a humanist psychologist. His point is to reimagine psychology. Not merely to look at what's wrong with us not look at us as a pile of neuroses or urges, but but to to
study psychology in a way that helps encourage human flourishing whether that's in the form of creativity or happiness. And so I'm very excited to talk to Scott today. You know, it's just so funny. You never know where life will take you how you'll get introduced to someone and so this conversation is a long time in the making and if you can at a bar at Cafe Habana in Malibu, California in either late 2000, I think I believe it be a late.
11 before I even had a vision of writing about stoicism. So here we are my conversation with Scott Barry Kaufman. This is there's a weird question. I hope it doesn't come off as hostile. But why should I care about Maslow's hierarchy of needs like I hear people bring it up all the time and they always it's usually kind of done in this like almost like they're recognizing a pattern like they'll hear something to go. Oh, that's Maslow's hierarchy, but what am I actually
Has to do with this information.
Yeah, it's a great question. And I think it's important to recognize that a lot of Maslow's writings have been misunderstood and misrepresented. You know, you'll see cutesy little things the internet like toilet paper the bottom of a pyramid of needs or Wi-Fi battery these sorts of things and and the you know, first of all mass will never drew a pyramid and most people I don't think anyone knows that because even an introductory psychology.
Xbox it's misrepresented. If you actually read the writings am as it would be equivalent to you like listening to people talking about the stoics and like a really character turd way that you know is totally misrepresents actual writings because you just nerdily went through and read a great detail what they actually wrote right and I nerdily went through and read what Mazel actually wrote and I can say unequivocally that it's very rich ideas for how to live.
Has life in a growth-oriented way. I think he was one of the first developmental psychologist and I think it gets credit for that. But he talked a lot about how human development is constantly this to step forward one step back Dynamic that were always having to choose the growth option. But we always have our deprivations can rear their head at any point. We're all seeing that right now with covid of course, but he made it clear that we could return to our base that you know, the deprivation of our basic needs, but he didn't
Life like a video game and I think I just a gross misrepresentation of of the whole Theory. You never viewed it like, you know, you reach a certain level of connection and then some voice from above is like congrats. You've unlocked self-esteem Ian trying to move you move up. You don't move up anything. That's why I reconceptualized it as a new metaphor for I think the spirit of it which is a ceremony.
So and you reconceptualize it around this concept of transcendence, but what does that mean?
Yes.
And also the idea of a sailboat as a better metaphor for life, and it was I wanted to get your thoughts on that but this idea that matter really emphasized dialectical between security and growth and we need a boat to be secure to a certain degree or else we don't go anywhere. But if we're just secure in life, we're going to be stagnant, you know, eventually had to open those sales and have the spirit shift from a spirit of fear to a spirit of exploration.
And that's the needs of this elbow and in my revised higher give needs are things like exploration Universal love and like humanitarian spirit and and purpose and from my sailboat metaphor. The sea bird is Transcendence. So it's so Transcendence is like the perspective of the Sea Bird. So the sea bird can has that freedom the idea there is that you know life is not this Trek up a mountain or above a pyramid, but it's to be experienced and
There's a vast to the vast unknown of the sea and we never know when the winds or the waves will come crashing down and all the boats and it almost didn't matter what direction each of the boats were going in and their own purposeful Direction. There can be a great tragedy or setback. They can pause all the boats at once and then you have to figure out what you going to do there and Transcendence is this perspective of wisdom of integration great integration, like if we can
Integrate within ourselves and we can integrate harmoniously with the world Maslow co-opted a term from the Anthropologist Ruth Benedict called Synergy. Where what is good for you is good for the world. That's really what Transcendence is not being above others. It's there always is what I refer to as healthy Transcendence. It's not having this sort of Guru attitude necessarily or this attitude because there a lot of good girls, but I'm saying like there's a lot of gurus who really abused their position of power that really stand on what I
Call pseudo Transcendence. It's actually their self esteem needs that are being actualized in the guise of transcendence. So I talk a lot of my book about difference in unhealthy Transcendence and healthy Transcendence to me healthy. Transcendence is one where there's this great Synergy between self and world was good for you is automatically good for the world. You know, your what you love to do. What brings you Joy, you know, you know, Ryan holiday loves right right right holidays a writer you enjoy the process, you know.
The met the Mastery and that Transcendence is an outgrowth. It's an emergent property but it's not what you're shooting for
here. The stoics talked about this idea of sympathy this sort of this sort of interconnectedness of the cosmos, which seems kind of abstract and and Whimsical for you know, such sort of a hard-nosed philosophy, but it's like maybe the major through I'm through the philosophy that we're all sort of fingers on the same hand that we all have a role.
Role to play and you know Marcus talks about how if you've hurt if you hurt one person you hurt yourself and then I think more sort of interestingly and urgently he says something like if you help the common good then you have you participate in the benefit like even if they don't thank you for it. And that that strikes me as sort of a similar idea to this idea of
transcendence. Absolutely and I think the Stokes also
Commonality there as they I think they were really into a deep integration between self and world and what you do is you see a lot these days you see people kind of pushing one extreme or the other so you may see a lot of pressure, you know everywhere like to serve right or if you would say you're born and you're raised in a really deeply religious group where your own needs are kind of put to the side and you're supposed to you're told to serve serve all the time. I argue in my book from a psychological perspective.
Active how unhealthy that is and how that can lead to vulnerable narcissism. I have a whole section on a form of narcissism that many people are not aware of but I think that yeah with the stoics what the humanistic psychologists I consider myself humanistic psychologists. What I'm trying to do is bring back that psychology which kind of got lost is this idea of a deep integration where we still have a deep a great sense of self. We don't lose our self my version of transcendence of healthy Stroud's Transcendence is one that's I think a good integration between Eastern and Western
Fans of self-actualization it's not one exclusive to the other. You know, it's it's having a great sense of yourself without the ego. You know, I think you can have a good sense of yourself without the ego and in the service of realizing the good Society
it do you think there's kind of a distinction in that sense between like sort of passion which I I tend to Define as sort of being selfish about like meeting your own needs and then purpose which is also very satisfying to realize but it's
it's by definition bigger than one cell. So like to me purpose it is a way to transcend the selfishness and the ego but then still be productive still achieve things till you know, yeah experience the pleasures of Mastery all of that.
You nailed it. You nailed it in the in the chapter on purpose and my book because I try to build in my book. I try to build each need very carefully on the next in a rush.
Nesting dolls or the way, so whether pyramid no definitely, okay. Yeah, I think the listeners get that at this point that I'm like allergic to the pyramid, you know, when I get to the purpose chapter, which is a later chapter in the book. What I tried to do by that point is have gone through you know, selfish. What does a healthy self-esteem versus unhealthy self-esteem. What is an integrated connection versus unintegrated connection? Because ultimately I don't think there's anything good or universally good or bad in this world, you know, it's all about how you integrate it and
I think there's a be being version and a D deficiency version of everything and this is the framework which profoundly shaped my own worldview in which Maslow talked about diverse be needs and you know what it's like when you're motivated by your deficiencies versus whether or not you're motivated by growth. So to answer your that's a long-winded way of answer your question because once we get to the purpose chapter, we realized that the healthiest form of purpose is one where there's already you've done the hard work of of
Degrading at your health, you know healthy self-esteem connection. You're no longer being driven or motivated by. Oh I need to connect with people are I'm lonely and and there's a humanitarian sort of spirit there because I asked in the book did Hitler have a purpose right? I say like well in one Sense on can say well, you know Hitler satisfied your need for purpose Scott and I'd say well here's the thing, but did he do it in the most growth oriented fashion? And I think I hope that's a rhetorical question.
Well, I know I never look I think I think you do see that.
In these sort of these tyrannical leaders where even though there's a stencil beliefs and this goes to your point about gurus. Yes. There's there's rhetoric and demagoguery around some plan. You know, whether that plan is kill all the Jews or or you know, having stealing extra land from Russia for Germany or you know, restoring Grandeur or you know, what making America great again, whatever thing is there is usually a reason that
To list manages to tap into something that people think they want or need, but at the core of it has nothing to do with that and everything to do with their own neuroses are psycho Cyclops sociopathy or
just just
whatever the childhood wound that they're playing out on this Grand Shakespearean scale
totally and this this framing might be helpful. So I looked and the psychological literature on moral exemplars.
Like this the technical term for them. What is moral greatness, like and you find in these individuals who make the history books in terms of doing something with that we consider morally great humans. It's not there always perfect and always they always were moral and everything in their lives but their agency they had very very high agency. But their agency usually was in the service of of of a pro-social purpose. Whereas the tyrants in these studies. They there's some really neat studies distinguishing. What is the difference being the tire and a moral Exemplar?
And the similarities so there's a similarity between the two and that's they both score about equally as high in agency, but the tyrants tend to be agency in the service of agency. Whereas the moral exemplars tend to be agency in the service of pro-sociality.
I'm writing it down. I love that know, it's it there's a there's a great quote from from Byron the poet and he says tis cause makes all that Hallows or degrades courage and it's fall. It's like, what are you what are you doing?
For why are you doing it? And and and that the a bad person can be pursuing a good cause and find some redemption in it, but it but it but an evil person pursuing an evil cause even if they are successful, it's ultimately not something we really
admire. Yeah, that's right and interesting of those that in their head. Well, they admire it, you know in their head. They think that's the most worthy goal possible is is the agency is
Is well in the most extreme, you know character turd version It's world domination. Right? Right, you know, I mean you see that archetype over and over again and movies, right? That's to them that's a very wide of the goal because it's but it's such a selfish the ultimate goal for them would be the ultimate selfishness
although like what was fascinating about the stoics and this is the Stokes are sort of these up close and personal observers of power either advising Emperors and one case of Marcus they become emperor, but but sort of
You know Marcus is constantly trying to he's like it's like imagine if your Hitler's Pierre like you're both at the same head of state and World War II you kind of look around and you go am I like him, you know, like I think you naturally self-aware person would be worried about that. And so Marcus is constantly kind of trying to look at his predecessors these evil awful Emperor's and try to wonder like, how can I be different? How can I not go down the same road as
them and I think like yeah, we think sure it may be Hitler admired himself or that you know, but the truth is I don't think actually anyone would want to trade play. I don't think you actually want to live in that head right? Like I don't think let's get way we were way down. I don't think Donald Trump's having fun day to day that's probably actually existentially and psychologically miserable existence because it is so wedded to and at the
Mercy of all these forces
so let's unpack that that becomes really fascinating. So I certainly would not want to trade places with Donald Trump. That's true. Donald actually
places like be president. I mean, he's not present. I mean you have to live inside his head that mental
space. Yeah, but I don't aspire to his goals and interesting because he aspired, you know, I heard stories that he used to
Listen to the tapes of Hitler and I say this in a non-controversial eosin objective data set if you want understand his motivations what he really gets excited and is inspired by people who are powerful and it doesn't matter the morality of the power. It's just the power itself. That is that is the thing that inspired him along the path that he took and I think that's a that's an objective sort of reading of his head space now. I'm not the type of person where I
Listen to a Hitler speech and I get excited and think wow. What a man, right. I think we'll he killed all my ancestors. You know, what what a colossal jerk they would which is obviously an understatement. But so I think that it's interesting because I'm really interested individual differences and and different people are inspired by different kinds of leaders and have different goals. Again, it's the agency in terms of agency or do you use
You know, are you a really like passionate strong agentic assertive person who has in your head a better vision for what the good Society could look like, you know, my book is a lot about Transcendence in the service of the good Society. Not just how to power over Society.
Well, no, and I think I think that is actually the this like a Shakespeare was traumatizing Trump and I think again from an objective data standpoint. He is a Shakespearean character what the way you would render
That character it is you have someone who is utterly obsessed with power with courage with boldness with you know, that idea of what a sort of a male leader looks like and then is in a sense impotent right unable to actually wield power effectively. He get he walks the halls of power but seems to be in effectually unable to utilize it to do what he's talking about.
Out force is forced to sort of tragically comically do nothing but brag about and talked about and manage the public relations of his regime whose you know, accomplishments are actually quite small. There's an argument that that Kaiser Wilhelm in the first world war is a sort of very similar character Churchill sort of renders in this way is that you know, he's raised to be this thing and then finds reality so lacking that is sort of Trapped By it.
And can't break free of it. And I think in that sense that what's interesting about Trump is that when I say not be fun to be him is that sure most of the time it's sort of probably clouded by a bubble of Illusions and delusions, but there must be moments, you know in the in the white house at 3:00 a.m. When he's texting with Sean Hannity for the reality pierces through and that's probably deeply painful even if not painful in our sense
OD, please.
Potentially painful and I don't know I don't get the sense. He has a lot of existential crisis, but that he's I think he does at a subconscious level. That's interesting is I don't think he liked lays at night consciously having a central crisis, but I think he you know, he must if he's human obviously maybe one would make the case. He's not human but I believe that all humans are human is that he in his gut feels that there's this that if we peered open and
People discover I discovered and I realized and came to the conclusion that I wasn't as great as I think I am. Well that would be worse than suicide. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
All right. So so I'm slightly happier topic when we talk about sort of
purpose and I'm a positive humanistic psychologists and you will know it yet. Right, right.
So when we talk about when we talk about purpose and we talked about sort of the public good. What do you see that being for you? Like, how does that
Great in your own life
specifically. What what does how does wanted to
create but wait what gets what do you wake up and you go this is my purpose or you know, this is how I am making a tiny dent in the
universe gotcha. So I I've been trying to bring back a perspective psychology that I really think has been neglected in the field in their own time period in the 40s to 60s the humanistic psychologists, not just a
Amazo people like Eric from role met Carl Rogers, Karen Horney was a psychoanalyst Who challenged Freud they were fighting the modern psychology that day which was viewing humans either as a cauldron of destructive impulses, which is Freud's idea destructive and sexual impulses. So everything could be reduced to that or we were these like rats in a box and only
External reward. That's we only respond to external reward. And that's it. There was nothing like an internal motivation. It was all external motivation and they challenged then they reach out is that know there's something to be a whole human being who is experiential live. There's nothing like that now in modern-day psychology. I have a lot of criticisms as well. And I feel like we've really lost the spirit of that humanistic psychology. A lot of the few different aspects of psychology are siloed into their own boxes, even in a psychology departments. You'll rarely see the social psychologists working with the
Now he's a psychologist for instance and it comes to come cases. They quite frankly hate each other and I think that's that's really unfortunate or evolutionary psychologist. I have a deep respect for what they're doing, but I think they focus too much on the muck of humanity. If you will crack open a David buses most latest edition of Evolutions Technologies, like four or five editions already chapter is like rape aggression. It's like a it's like a laundry is a book
called the murderer next door doesn't
enter.
Exactly. Yeah, it's like a laundry list of like the greatest hits of the worst of humanity throughout the course of our Evolution and I've been like well hold up, you know things look all are also you know, awwe the all experience that's part of our DNA as well altruism is part of our DNA and usually altruism though Evolution ecology will talk about altruism. They will do then I'll be like and it's actually really selfish, you know, and like, you know, what? No, I think sometimes there's actual genuine like pro-social motivations either says it's so cynical, you know,
Such a cynical view of humanity as opposed to a realistic view of humanity. Now, I'm not trying to be a pollyannish in my view but I think that just like Maslow really wanted to put a realistic understanding of both the bad end at the potential for higher levels of human nature. I want to do that in my own lifetime. So I feel like that really drives me in my work.
So going back to this this concept we're talking about the the sir stoic idea of sympathy that you tweeted something this morning that caught me you're talking about
about a study that was showing how hard it must be to be a transgender person because you walk through the world and the entire world has evolved to really only see two gender identities in this so so it's like a, you know, a mineral second in our evolutionary perspective. We just don't have quite the ability to see them the way they see themselves. I thought it was it sort of a thoughtful take on just like what that must be like for someone not is not political.
Not even a biological argument you're just operation
is like your observation
great big this. This must be hard.
It isn't interesting. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah and it's been interesting to watch people sort of respond to stuff. We've posted either on my social or Instagrams because that you know, this core virtue for the Stokes is Justice and so it's hard not to look around the world and see Injustice has and point them out. Especially right now people see I'm I guess what I'm asking you is why is
is this so hard for people to do to just care about other people like what what and I don't think it's everyone it feels like there's a percentage of the population that has gotten themselves in a place where
They've they're just utterly and it's almost like a badge of honor to be indifferent to the experiences of other people
create questions. And first of all, you follow me on Twitter, of course, I'm glad I had no idea. I'm honored. So there's so much to unpack there and so much to get into obviously don't have you know, I can't tell you what here's okay. You listen up. Here's the secret the secret to the universe, but
There are needs is part of the hierarchy of needs and why the hierarchy of needs is important not in a pyramid sort of way, but still the original idea of the hierarchy of needs. It was actually a hierarchy of prepotency. That's what it really was. If you look at Mass was writing but theory of motivation. So there are needs that evolved to be more prepotent than other needs and when they're severely deprived they really can overtake the whole person and they dominate the whole person and they narrow our worldview and they make us Focus specifically in those things.
you can see how if you're severely deprived of of a basic sense of feeling like respect in our society feeling fully human and a lot of people a lot of African-Americans people in our country or don't feel like they are really treated like they're fully human still, you know, even with all the strides we've made and so when you're when you're when you're at that that that that that / that legitimate genuine deprivation,
it does make it more difficult to shift your whole prepotency structure of motivations and just care about self-actualizing. This is why I think the hierarchy of needs is very relevant today. And in this era it, you know, these needs are prepotent. Now our tribal impulses are also very very potent. Our power impulses are very very potent. This is why I go in great depth in my book on these basic needs because if we don't really truly understand them in their operation and how
Work and will never really understand how it is that we ever transcend it. So, you know power is the whole structure of social media for instance is all revolving around social status and tribalism. You couldn't design a system to to bring out the worst in us any better. If you if you intentionally tried to set out for that goal, you know, or when I say the way I mean in terms of tribalism and status with
callousness and yeah attention-seeking and all
that and divisive, yeah.
Yeah, divisiveness not you know and and and motivating us to want to get likes to say things to get the likes that ends up being the motivation as opposed to what we truly believe. So many people are not saying what they really believe and think they're saying what they think will get them more social status among their in-group and if that that's the deprivation world, you know the growth world the being world of human existence, which I really try to get to
In my book and just talk about it seems some people don't even know it's possible. There are so stuck in the deprivation world that they don't even realize they're higher possibilities for themselves as well as others all you mean I actually can try bonding affiliative affiliative lie with that Trump supporter. I am convinced they must be evil because they are Trump's were so I won't even like just be opening up your mind to the possibility that there could be a higher nature that you can.
Connect with another human about
you know, where it's you know, like you'll want your watch a video of some sort of something being horribly something horrible being done to a person and I think if you're in any place of self-actualization that hits you in a vulnerable place because you've created room to be vulnerable right you it doesn't threaten your identity to say like that shouldn't be happening to that other person. I don't like that then there's this weird reaction. That seems to be coming. It's maybe
20% of people are 15% of people are some made-up number. But the point is they see the same video and their impulses. We're almost paradoxically to defend the perpetrators or to attack the victim of the thing. Does that come from a place of them beings? Where does that come from? You know what I mean? Like, I don't the people who you watch a George Of The Gorge Floyd video in your impulses to try to contort your mind to
Since yourself that this person deserved what was happening to them or Worse are not as worse, but or just at the very least that that that it's not as bad as it looks like where does that come
from cognitive dissonance? There's a very well-known phenomenon in Psychology where we have we have to change we try to change our beliefs. We are would change reality the facts we change it to.
Conform to our prior beliefs and we feel very uncomfortable when those things are out of line, but they're like you said there do exist a small proportion of people that are capable of transcending that like, there are people who are able to live in a constant state of exploration and revision and are able to revise their role models in light of new evidence and and and also just yeah the compassion element is important here too and I would be remiss if it would be an incredible.
Correct model if we ignore that from the equation, I wrote an article called the one personality trait that is ripping. America part II part I wrote this article for Scientific American and and I presented a lot of studies to make the case that what we're seeing a lot of right now with the populism and it's not a traditional Republican versus Democrat fight. We're seeing something very different in different animal right now and you're seeing a lot of people who have very antagonistic personality that you know, they have it.
I'm very excited by certain ideas. And so that certain leaders are putting forth and it's empowering them to unleash a more magnified version of that potentiality that already exists within themselves. So I think that the trait antagonism is an important part of the story as well.
Yeah. I think it takes it takes real discipline because those are seductive tempting like really effective High valence emotions really takes discipline not to be pulled.
By those forces because it's yeah, it's always more convenient to not be compassionate.
Yeah, you're right. There's what I say. I said once like there are a million ways to trigger an activates owns defenses. It's far harder to actually try to connect with the person when you're talking about topics specifically like politics or you're talking about religion or know a whole bunch of different topics. I mean, it's very easy to activate someone's defenses
so last last
This is sort of wrap up. I was curious. So you left pain recent relatively recently right to sort of pursue your writing. I remember getting an email from you about
this while we have not caught up in a while there. I bumped into it at
James all teachers house, which you I think you just just done it. This was like a year ago.
So I left Columbia. So I want to be a very I was at pet because back in the back in the day when we knew each other more. Oh, no, we still know each other but you know what? I mean like you're on you you were on my podcast like the think twice before
You know, I've kept in touch with you over the years and I was a pain for a while and then I went to Columbia taught at Barnard College as well as Columbia psychology department, but now I'm independent of Academia at the right now. Yeah, I'm trying to be as they say a public intellectual.
What was that? I'm just curious what I'm always curious when people make leaps like that. What was that leap like because I imagine there's a certain amount of safety and
Security in the teaching
model. Yeah, but there's a lot of freedom to be outside of it, but I'd also some people's covid related as well. I mean this is covid really shifted a lot of my priorities and also just you know, I don't want to go back to New York right now. So there's I'm in California on the beach at the moment and and I just don't think that New York is the safest right now for me to be health-wise.
So I may return I mean, I don't want to like, you know, put myself in a situation where like I will keep a critical if ever return to Academia, right? I don't like Hypocrites. I don't want to be one myself and hands but for right now and this point in my life it it feels very freeing to have a first of all have a podcast that's a hundred unproduced. You know, I listen to a lot of these podcasts that are that are produced and I cringe, you know, they sound so fake to me. You know, it's like you hear the corny music Ray that it's like dude.
Okay. Today we're going to discuss it. There's a certain format to it. I can't explain. Do you know what I mean? There's like different but I just have this podcast to psychology podcast, which is just recently got ranked by terrible the number one science podcast in the world and and it's just me Unleashed in a sense with a guest, you know, just talking about whatever I want to talk about. I don't I don't try to filter the conversation. I want to be thoughtful and compassionate but besides that you know, it's like whatever, you know, like anything goes any topic. Oh, so I'm enjoying living that life right now.
Do you identify that way I've always kind of red you as being even though you're an academic year at Penn which you know as great professors from Adam Grant, mr. Duckworth and and derrickman and I've always kind of seen as a little bit of an outsider. What do you identify that way
on a reasonably? I thought outside ever since I was in special education as a kid so that we can go that back to my early childhood and auditory disability as a kid. I was putting special.
Education. I always I've always felt like an outsider. It's just I think it just makes it easier when you're an outsider as a child. It makes it easier for you. When you become an adult to own that Outsider
status. It's yeah, I sort of see that myself too, but then I would be curious like does it is it ever also feel a bit antagonistic? It's like there's this part I think of the outsider that also really wishes they were an Insider. Do you know what I mean? Or at least was rejecting the overtures of The Insider? So do you feel that?
That tension ever.
Well, I feel more comfortable being an outsider because of my past but I also I mean am I really an outsider though because it's like it's interesting because in my head I like that sort of spirit but in reality like I'm very good friends with lots of academics, I collaborate I still do research. I'm friends with a lot of people don't have that many enemies that I know of. I know you'd read Robert Greene's books and you're suddenly realize well the only secret enemies but you know, not that I know of like, I really
Try to make connections with people and I don't really live in antagonistic life. Maybe that's a misnomer that you have to if you're an outsider. You have to leave in antagonistically if I maybe I could show people there's a middle way.
Yeah, I don't know if it's if it's so much antagonistic. It's just like there can be like some resentment that it's like hey, my stuff's just is good. Why am I not getting this or that right? Like, I feel that sometimes it's like you like being an outsider, but there's also you know sometimes
Insecurity that comes along
with it. Do you do you have any examples of like something you feel like a little you notice within yourself feeling a little bit not like resentful. Yeah, that's me. I mean for
me it's obviously I love you know, being self-taught. I love owning my own platform. I love you know, not having any sort of responsibility that will have autonomy over my career in life. But then and I'm sure you see this there's
Always kind of like a hidden social hierarchy of where people fit as far as let's say like media coverage or opportunities to get invited to this or that so it's like you sort of like where you are, but then you're like well, but I'm better than so and so why am I not getting X right not to this is a healthy emotion, but I think it's that's a tension that exists. I think for any ambitious person who has that Outsider tendency.
I totally hear you. I just don't feel that emotion too much.
I'm trying to think through examples. Honestly, I've always been a real Oddball in the sense that I mean II always lived in a fantasy world when I was a kid and it would run around in the class and a Superman cape just not caring at all what the kids thought and you know, and then the teacher would be reading like a book or story and I would be in detention all the time and I just feel like I'm driven so much by intrinsic motivations that it's just
Tell you enjoy living my life. I don't try to worry too much about what other people are doing in terms of the social status hierarchy.
No, no that makes that mean that's the way to that's the way to do. It is sort of be comfortably in your own
universe exactly and the limiter only downsides to it though. Of course, you know, everything everything in life is a trade-off but you know choosing the the good life that you've chosen works for you and then owning it I think is a beautiful thing.
I agree. It's got thanks so much.
Thank you, Ryan. I've always loved talking to you.
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