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Bulletproof
radio state of high performance
you're listening to bulletproof radio with Dave asprey. Today's cool fact of the day is that news recently made headlines across the world about a second HIV patient who went into remission after a stem cell transplant. That's kind of cool because it's two people on Earth who have done it. This patient was positive for the virus since 2003 got a blood stem cell transplant in 2016 because he had Hodgkin's lymphoma, which is a lymphatic system cancer and the blood stem cells came from a donor with a mutation that makes stem cells resistant to HIV infection and subsequent testing over 12 months showed that the patient's HIV had fallen to undetectable levels. So 16 months after the procedure they stopped taking
Antiretroviral medication with a doctor's permission and has remained in remission ever since with HIV levels less than one copy per milliliter of plasma, which is pretty much not there. And when that patient decided to do the stem cell transplant, which is an accepted procedure for Hodgkin's lymphoma. The Physicians said, well, why don't we try finding a donor with a defect in both copies of the ccr5 Gene and that means that the donors T-cells couldn't make the protein which means HIV really can't get into the cells and they thought it might work on HIV. It was one of those times where there was no additional risk to the patient. So they did gasp an experiment on a patient and guess what else it wasn't double-blind or anything like that. They knew that it might work and they tried it and it apparently did work.
And the first patient who had an HIV remission in 2009 had a cancer treatment with to blood stem cell transplants from a donor with the same defect along with two rounds of full body radiation. And this is now a cure from just one you might have heard about ccr5 because the doctor in China who just allegedly and probably truthfully now genetically modified a human embryo was introducing the same defect in order to make a baby that was resistant to HIV for life. Now, here's what they didn't tell you in the research that same ccr5 gene is associated with intelligence by deleting that Gene whether it's to cure HIV or maybe just to make a super baby. Well, you could be making a super baby. There's a lot we don't yet understand about genes, but we do know that stem cells can
Some amazing things in humans and it's critically important that you maintain your right to get access to stem cells because countries around the world are now doing this to speed healing and to prevent things as big as organ transplants are joint transplants or at least to push them off for many many years and even more importantly for broad numbers of people if you have old injuries that hurt that pain sucks energy because of those it old injuries for long periods of time and that someone who's had arthritis menu since I was 14 and just thought it was supposed to hurt when you walked or when you moved it was just a condition of living. I didn't realize other people didn't have that I can tell you living without pain throughout my body. It's kind of a good deal. I really appreciate that and you may not even know the extent of the pain you're experiencing if it's been there for most of your life speaking of which you guys know that foreshadowing is now one of my core human skills.
Might be talking about what do you think? Is it super babies or is it stem cells if you guys stem cells you were right. We are going to talk about stem cells and that's because stem cells are one of those massively impactful things that were not possible 25 years ago. We just didn't know about this people say Dave how you going to live to a hundred and eighty. How's that even possible? How are stem cells possible? All right, you can actually pull sells out of your body put them back in and so I've gone down that rabbit hole very deeply and I actually recently did a full body stem cell Makeover at doceri clinics in Park City, Utah, which I did with the help of well, we call it six hands. So we had three doctors two of them were in the room with me today to the procedure. We had a Johns Hopkins neurologist and a cosmetic specialist anti-aging specialist and an ortho specialist. So what I did was I had my stem cells put everyone the body and we're going to
About what stem cells can do for you today? The two guests in the room with me today are dr. Harry Adelson who spoke at the bulletproof conference and is mentioned in Game Changers. He's a what are the very early adopters for using stem cells for chronic musculoskeletal pain more than 5,000 stem cell procedures under his belt and is injected into more than 700 intervertebral discs Harry. Did I say intervertebral right vertebral? Yes. There you go. See now. I know what the world looks like. I don't want to say that's one of those words even as a professional biohacker. I didn't go to medical school. That's why I like how these doctors in the room. Right and I would say he's one of the top guys out there for spine pain and he invented that full body stem cell makeover that I underwent and joining us in the room today is dr. Amy Killin. She's a former emergency medicine doctor. I like my Wi-Fi, dr. Lana, but she became more interested in preventive medicine and change career course, so she focused on prevention.
And regeneration and she partners with dr. Harry Adelson at dos our clinics and dr. Addison. Dr. Killin as I'm going to call you. Well, Harry and Amy, welcome to the show
great to see you again Dave. Thanks for having us
now. Amy on stage at the bulletproof conference last year. I introduced your Alter Ego. Yes, because your middle initial is B. So you have the you have the best rapper middle name ever Amy be Killin.
Dr. Amy be Kellen is in the house.
Yes. All right. That's cool. The only other person who's ever been on the show who even came close to having a name that cool was Mark Divine the Navy SEAL who has the name of a porn star?
Now I told him that on the show and I was happy to kill me when I said that so Mark if you're listening love you brother. Now, if you are really into stem cells, you might want to check out episode 3 32 or for 12 or 407 where we've talked about erectile dysfunction was stem cells and we talk about pain and we talk about healing in general. So this is a core part of biohacking and something that you might say. Oh that's expensive. Here's the deal. Harry is pioneered ways to bring the cost way down from where it was even three years ago. And if you look at things like your iPhone or if you're one of those Android people and maybe your Android phone there. I just pissed off half the world that is an example of you go back five ten years and those phones were garbage compared to what we have today yet. The funds today are about the same cost but they're so much better and I think we're seeing a drop in cost and Improvement in efficacy. That's ridiculous.
Now what I want to focus on in this episode is some of the specifics around. Okay what happens if you do the most extensive possible stem cell procedure and there's some cool videos we're putting up about this. So we'll go through the the experience of that why it matters but at a broader level for people listening, I want to talk about the stem cell theory of aging and how important that is and let's just open with that. What is the deal with aging and stem cells hair you want to start off with that?
Sure Dave will let you know as we discussed in the prior episodes any sort of musculoskeletal pain really, you know, whenever you have healing after injury that is a stem cell mediated event and the focus of my practice is the treatment of musculoskeletal pain, but if we broaden that to look at tissue aging, I mean really this is this is entirely a stem cell mediated event the
Main contributors to our eight to aging are inflammation and oxidation and weather and then your body's biological aging really is a response to how well you can cope cope with and respond to inflammation and oxidation and really both of those processes are entirely controlled by stem cells. They're controlled specifically by the the the vesicles filled with growth factors that are called exosomes exosomes are filled with the the items the very items that communicate with all of your organs tissues to to to control inflammation and control oxidation. And as those things spiral out of control that is what causes the aging process of all the organ systems.
I've been working on anti-aging Technologies and the nonprofit world for
Years just educating people about what's causing aging and gotten to know the leaders in the field and my next book is around aging and what I am specifically doing to live to least a hundred eighty stem cells are part of it because inflammation underlies pretty much all of the things that are likely to kill you and inflation happens in different people's bodies at different times for different reasons, but if you get on top of handling oxidation, which is important because that's how you make energy oxidation is good too much oxidations bad or oxidation in the wrong place at the wrong time. Not a good thing. So balancing that is cool. But you talk about something we haven't covered in other episodes in detail about exosomes and I like to call these stem cell juice.
It's a good read good definition
a magic juice Neil reordering calls it magic juice and
what the stem cells are doing when they go in is they're sticking to a site of injury or inflammation and then they secrete these exosomes for a while. But when we did the full body stem cell makeover we did was it 11 vials of exosomes
as a huge quantity of X is own so, you know with stem cells stem cells essentially have to superhuman Powers one is that what makes the stem cell a stem cell the very definition of a stem cell a stem cell is a cell that has the ability when it when it divides to either self-renew turn into a new version of itself or differentiate turn into a Target tissue cell when used therapeutically we used to think that was the main mechanism of action. We put these stem cells where we want them to and then they would turn into the type of tissue that was required. In fact, that's not at all. What's
Happening it's the second superhuman power, which is the paracrine affect. The paracrine effect is the stem cells ability to sort of direct traffic. They're able to recognize that they're in the presence of damaged stem cells damaged or I'm sorry damaged tissue damage normal tissue cells and then they release these vesicles filled with growth factors called exosomes that that actually trigger the growth of new healthy connective tissue that kill invading microbes they control inflammation and they launched the growth of new healthy blood vessels. So this is you know, precisely what needs to happen for normal tissue healing to occur now in the realm of sort of anti-aging medicine, there's a very interesting paper that was just published in this last year by a doctor named Joshua hair and out of University of Miami and in this study, he's actually proven the use
Of stem cells for Frailty associated with aging and this is fascinating because anti-aging medicine Age Management Madison. This is a huge field but there's really very little in the scientific literature proven to actually reverse Frailty associated with aging. So what this doctor did is he took culture expanded bone marrow stem cells from Young donors, he and then he gave them to elderly patients. Now, first of all Frailty associated with aging that's there's several different ways to to to classify that but basically it's loss of grip strength slowing of gate involuntary weight loss loss of energy and decrease in activity.
When does that normally hit people?
Well it can it can hit. Well, I think with you it hits you early in life 23. Yeah. I mean it can hit you but but it's sort of those sort of main five things usually combined with
Some degree of cardiovascular disease and that's that can be measured with with plasma markers C-reactive protein interleukin 6 and and yeah Truman tumor necrosis Factor Alpha. So what he did is he took these these patients who I believe I believe they were over the age of 70 who displayed these elevated serum markers and had at least three out of the five of the of the physical characteristics administered culture expanded stem cells, and he found that in pretty much every person they had Improvement in all of those areas. I mean, this is really a landmark study because this is one of the first sort of really evidence-based approaches to anti-aging medicine.
It's interesting. If you look at Captain America it gets in this weird metal Contraption machine and then they plug in some
Gasps run electrical current he comes out and he's you know, two feet taller and full of muscles, etc. Etc. That's not particularly realistic, but you can take stem cells now and someone who's aging and you can give them their brain back and you can give them what is it several more years of functional movement with a treatment assuming it goes right assuming they're a good candidate and things like that. Are we at the point where you would feel comfortable medically saying this is a common or at least a possible outcome.
Well, I mean it's that is certainly been my experience having done stem cell medicine for nearly 10 years now and that's really how full body stem cell makeover came about full-body stem cell makeover over the years. I've sort of developed a reputation as the guy who does big treatments. I get a lot of farmers. I get a lot of ranchers. I get a lot of oil field workers. I get these people who are have arthritis throughout their entire body. It kind of wrecked. Yeah, they're people who've just really I
Affectionately referred to as having exceeded the terms of their warranty. They were very, you know, it's LED very hard lives over many years and you know if they've paid the price and so because I've never built insurance and just because I've I've this I've just never say I want to help people I sort of and then on top of that because I work with such good anesthesiologists who put people to completely to sleep so I can do big treatments over the years. I started doing these big treatments these big stem cell treatments the entire spine both hips both shoulders both knees and then in 2016 early 2016 when I first treated you and then we started getting more and more biohackers in I started getting people saying well can't you just treat my entire body in a city like sitting right? Yeah, and I thought yeah sure. Let's do that. So A couple of years ago. We launched we rolled out this full body stem cell makeover and and Amy and I do it together.
They're so I do every moving part in the body. So we first restart fate. We take a large volume of bone marrow concentrated down to bone marrow aspirate
concentrate. You took about a half a litre my bone marrow.
That's right. Yeah, that's right. Now the
first time you took my bone marrow, it was in 2016 and I didn't do the the whole body thing there. We did actually pretty close to whole body. We did a big tree that was about the there's about a four hands right in terms of we did what the two of you together could do and I remember I walked in the door. I said, look, I have a lot of time so could we just do everything possible you're going to go to the trouble of getting my fat derived cells my bone marrow and so you guys like all right, like what we're going to do that and I was awake the whole time. We didn't use sedation. I didn't even take
the option to have you sedated and you chose not to because you wanted to film it. I wanted to see what it
was like and you know, I also don't like what nitric oxide does for my specific genetic mutation of my NOS three Pathways. I feel like crap when I get nitrous oxide for several days actually.
Is why when people are doing that at Burning Man, I'm like I'm out but those little whipped cream containers of nitrous oxide. So that that's tough for me. I'm like, I don't want to take the hit even though I probably would have felt better. So I actually without anything other than a local anesthetic. I experienced bone marrow aspiration and I was a little bit scared but here's the deal. It's not particularly painful it's odd and you feel things rattling in your skeleton that really should never sound like that and you feel that are sound it which wasn't particularly fun hearing it come from inside my skeleton instead of from outside, but you know what, I've had a lot worse things but way more painful happened to me like in the overall scheme of things the fear of fear is worse than fear itself. And so I would say it wasn't that big of a deal. It was nicer when I went in for the six hands though to just like wake up and say, oh it's done and you took quite a lot of quite a lot of bone marrow, so I am a fan of the
Sedation without general anesthesia, which has its own set of risks. But all right. So now you've got half a liter bone marrow you go in with liposuction. If
we have we got out we have the option of additionally doing a lipo aspiration isolating stem cells from your fat and then we use these X's, ohms which we've talked about in Prior episodes is exosomes are the growth factors from placental Drive stem cells without the actual other person stem cells without the other other person's DNA. So you're getting the active ingredient of culture expanded placental Drive stem cells without the other person's DNA. So we supercharge your own stem cells with these X's. Ohms what we think, you know, the the the the vest the the extra exosomes the membrane of the exosomes are identical to the membrane of your stem cells. So we think that your own stem cells actually absorb them into themselves, thereby turbocharging your own stem cells and effectively
Making them that of a younger person. So then I do essentially all my injections. We inject from the base of the skull down to the tailbone. Both sides all the
facet joints. We do every vertebra everywhere on each side. We do epidurals in the
cervical spine the thoracic spine and they and the lumbar spine. So we put stem cells into the epidural space and this is to to help hopefully to help prevent Central stenosis in the future and flip you over inject stem cells into both shoulders both elbows. Both wrists both thumbs both hips. Both knees both ankles both great toe. And then I pass it on a dr. Carolyn and I also work at the same time as him, but I do the hair injection. So for both men and women, I do scalp injections to try to improve the health of the hair and possibly restore hair depending on what's going on with the hair.
And can I just say I would rather have bone marrow aspirated then get those hair injections because those
Hurt they did this time. I woke up. I
can't even tell you didn't think so. My hair was messed up. In fact, I looked pretty pretty amazing when I got out of that.
Yeah, you did but know the hair injections can be uncomfortable and I do facial injections. So I do the injections with it with a needle Under the Skin as well as the micro needling with the little tiny needles on top of the skin and topical application again of the stem cells from fat as well as PRP and exosomes and then the sexual injections, which yeah the penis injections for the men and the the sort of be shot for men and the Oh shot for women and I do all of those things kind of wild after Adelson is is finishing up with his injection. So we're working simultaneously, so you're not actually under sedation very much longer.
I mean, are there any cosmetic procedures I could have done that I didn't do with you.
Well, there are a whole bunch of things. You can do cosmetic procedure wise, you know, there's lasers of all different types. There's fillers that mean
Cells specifically it with stem cells as far as I know we did most of the things that were that are being posted. One of the ones I missed on the only things else that I don't do currently are the like the fat transfers where you at you add stem cells to the fat and you actually directly transfer both the stem cells and the fat and some doctors do that. It's just not something that I do
sounds kind of icky because then you actually that's a fat
transplanted back. It's different. Yeah. It's a different procedure. So what I'm doing is concentrating your stem cells and using those directly, you know as injections as well as a topical applications and micro needling and I find that that is great for you know, all kinds of things like improving the texture of your skin the tone the color, you know hyperpigmentation or dark spots can be improved fine lines and wrinkles can be improved and just generally patients tell me they just kind of feel like they have like a glow to their skin that wasn't there before their skin gets healthier, which is what we're trying to do.
It takes about six to nine months for this all to kick in right and in terms of the new layers of skin and all that - what three months ago when I did closer to 6 is close to six months ago. My calendar in my head is entirely inaccurate. One of the other things that I definitely noticed is an addition to a reduction in stuff going on in the body and already from the first treatments. I really didn't have a lot of residual pain except I had two things going on on both of which are substantially improved now one is I had a separated left shoulder from the last I think was the last bulletproof conference. I never even felt the injury, but I think I picked up someone at the conference just under the arms and I lifted them up but instead of pulling them towards me and lifting them up the way you would intelligently. I lift it up kind of at the end of my arms and just that amount of Leverage on my shoulder. Give me a bone on bone shoulder separation. That was partly healed, but I
I think that there's this treatment totally nailed that and the other one. I finally figured out what's going on. I go through airports a stupid amount of the time and I've got a rolly bag because you don't care everything on your back, which is what I used to do because that compresses all the nerves in your upper back. The problem is if you're pushing a heavy backpack on those carpets in airports for long periods of time. I actually had weird pain like really substantial upper back pain just on the right hand side from holding the handle and pushing a heavy bag over carpets for God knows how many miles that's one of those repetitive stress things. And so you went in there and worked on that and it took a about maybe a month and it's gone that stuff can be healed and that have been bothering me for like a year and I didn't really know what it was until after the injections. I said that must be the trigger for it. So thanks for that. And then on the Cosmetic side Amy.
I it's hard to say, you know, people are commenting quite a lot on social and also just friends who've known me for a long time. Like what's up with your skin and I want skin like that and I'm hearing it more from from guys my age because I grew up in New Mexico. Where will you wash your face every now and then if you if you get around to it, but it's really more important you brush your teeth and you're going to look distinguished no matter what and now there's a whole bunch people saying I actually would like to look healthy and actually feel healthy and I'd like to have healthy skin and what's up with that? So I I like to think that the that has made a difference. I don't think it's too soon to say and it can take time but I'm definitely looking really good in people have commented and then on the hair side of things that's also one of those my hair's less gray than it was before. Hmm. And that's something that's been noticed these before hmm. I started turning gray in my early 20s. My mom was great by the time she was like 25 26. It seems to run in the family. There's a
A component there, but I noticed in the last three years. Mine had started turning more gray, possibly from some mineral things that I also changed but post stem cells. It's way less great than it was but there's still a few little streaks of gray in there. But the deal is it should be fully back to its normal color. Have you seen some cell patients restore their color?
We've had patients who have definitely commented on the the gray is getting better, right and both had both area and I have and you know that maybe from the hair injections as well as from the some of the IV injections. We don't know for sure but we've definitely had feedback from patients that the hair is not only you know, just healthier and be thicker but it's also not quite as gray
someone told me the other day that I had CEO hair and is that it does?
Yes, it does it could turn you into a CEO come get your stem cells. It's a
It's funny because some of us have it's just cosmetic you say it's just vanity but part of part of aging it doesn't have to be kind of falling apart, which is the way a lot of us visualize it and I've worked really hard on changing my picture of Aging which for almost all of us. It's some combination of tubes monitors wheelchairs forgetting your own name and probably diapers to be really straightforward and that is not actually what aging look like throughout almost all of history. Does the very recent things and I I'm just rejected that outright where age when you do it, right? It means that our aging when you do it right means that you have the ability to walk around on your own power. You have the energy to play with your grandkids and do what you want to do and you actually get to step into that position of the village Elder where you've got the experience and you are willing and able
One happy to share it to make the world a better place and death looks more like what happens in your bed, when you're done with everything versus that picture that we've created of just this long convalescence and I think stem cells one of the things that's going to change that reality for people which is really cool. But along the way wouldn't you like to look like you were 50 or 60 instead of a hundred and fifty that's my plan anyway, and I'm very happy to say, you know, I'm not going down without a fight. In fact, I'm just not going down.
I think it's important. I tell patients that for me for my procedures. I'm working with them on trying to help their confidence and help them feel better. You know, it may be something that doesn't seem that important but you know it whether it whether it's your hair is falling out or your skin is not as useful as it used to be or you know, you're having some sexual problems or dysfunction. It could really affect how people how they feel about themselves how they present themselves how they, you know, kind of go about their day and you know if I can improve
A little bit then it can really change how they're interacting with the rest of the world and it you know, it's it may not seem like a big deal but actually can be a big deal for people. I've got
several really close friends who are in their 70s or 80s and I started making a habit of having much older friends in my 20s. When I started running this anti-aging nonprofit group like that guy's in his late 80s. He's dating someone in her 40s and he's full of energy wants to call me eleven o'clock at night and talk about his latest idea. Like I think that's the path that I want and I've learned so much there. So even even today I had are not today but this week I had a conversation with a good friend I think is actually been on the show a while back. Anyhow, he's like Dave this old age thing totally sucks. I think it's pushing 80 and he's like, you know, like, you know, what doesn't work all the time but, you know works most of the time and you know, I've still got my hair, but I'm always fighting to keep it and you know things heard and
You know just kind of sucks but like a generally positive but now just blah right and so there are frustrations like that and we have this mindset that says you shouldn't you shouldn't age you shouldn't look old but there's some there's something called healthy aging you can look him. Someone say that's someone who's really healthy but they've got mileage and that's the thing that I'm looking for the idea that we're all gonna look like we're 25 forever. We'll probably get there right? We're just not there now, but the idea that it's normal and healthy to have the the wizened look of age, but it doesn't mean you look like a truck ran over you with aging right? And that's where I think you're doing a me now is you're saying, you know what I have healthy flexible skin at whatever age I am and you probably going to look at me say you're going to guess within 20 years of my age of you're probably going to guess 20 years in the proper direction. What is sort of the biggest transformation that you've seen on the Cosmetic side from
Convince themselves in people's faces.
I mean it's a lot of your people look like themselves, which is I think is important. I'm not changing the way that they look that they're still themselves, but just a lot of people just come and say that their family and friends have commented on the fact that they look very very well rested at they look very vibrant that they you know, that their skin is like I said, it's glowing and looks really healthy the procedures that I do, you know, we're increasing your own collagen production your own elastin production hyaluronic acid. These are all things that start to go down at about age 25. So 25 is like when their Peak skin happens and then after that it's all downhill. So we're trying to get your own, you know your own skin to increase production of these things that are really healthy and to make your skin look healthy and behave healthy it but it doesn't change the way you look as far as you know, it's not like filler where you have like, you know, fake lips or you have, you know, weird things in your face, it's you you just look like a better version of you and that's what people tell me all the time
and this is
A different thing. There's you can anti-aging the vast majority of this going back 20 years ago was we're going to just do a nip and a tuck and a facelift here and a little bit of sticking some plastic in your in your forehead here or whatever the heck else they did which was purely cosmetic but it wasn't really anti-aging it was sort of like like tattooing makeup on or something like that and what you're talking about there is restoring it from the inside out. So the systems of healing or turned back on and this is that Revolution that I think a lot of people have internalised yet and I'm happy I got to get that done during the whole body stem cell makeover because I was unconscious the whole time that stuff does hurt could because the first time we did some of that stuff like halfway through like let's not use that stuff because it burns I'm getting my teeth here, but when you grit your teeth and scrunch up your face when there's a needle in your face. It's not a good idea. So I think you guys went down a really good path doing the whole body thing.
Harry what's the the biggest sort of I'm going to call it a miracle healing you seen but but tell me about a case or two of people who've done the whole body stem cell makeover who had unusually good results.
Well, usually that's for people who are already start with some degree of pain. So we've had a number of people who we've done full-body stem cell makeover on who really are for the most part pain-free and they're doing it entirely for anti-aging purposes and because they want to remain pain through pain free well on up into advanced age,
but I'm a prime example of that. I'd have like five percent of the pain I used to have exactly exactly what we're like people getting out of wheelchairs and stuff like well where we
really see the most dramatic outcomes. Now, I only treat musculoskeletal pain, so I don't treat spinal cord and try for instance, but where we really see, you know, some amazing outcomes is with dehydrated discs desiccated.
Masks and these are frequently people. It's usually young people who've had some sort of injury frequent a very common injury is from deadlifting and on their MRI shows that one of their one or several of their lumbar discs are dehydrated and that shows up as black on MRI. So when you look at the TT waiting MRI, white white white black here, it just it's
because truth with a cavity sort
of right now, it's normal size and shape there may or may not be some degree of herniation frequently. There isn't and you and this is people describe. This is a midline pain dead in the center. Usually right about Beltline or slightly lower and leaning slightly forward makes it much worse. So like holding something out in front of them and leaning forward, especially like putting a baby in a crib just just like the worst thing they could do that's something that surgery has nothing to offer. I mean, they're really the only surgery that really would be at all.
Hopeful would be Fusion which is a terrible option because that's a permanent solution. You know, it can it can permanently make you worse and what we found is that putting this combination of bone marrow with fat stem cells with exosomes inch directly into the intervertebral disc using x-ray guidance can has in many cases resulted in a complete cure of pain.
Okay. So that's that's pretty profound. How have you found things like ozone injection or MSM cream or some of the the other things like that when it comes to back
pain? Yeah, I've much less experience with those
things. I mean have you seen patients who have had those and then come in for stem cells and it's
sure. Oh, yeah. I mean we've had people who the people who come to were usually the last stop. I mean we are very it's really unusual that people are say yeah, you know, I started getting this back pain and I haven't really tried anything so I came to you first usually I've tried this I've tried that I've consulted with the surgeon I've done. I've been to the chiropractor. I've been in this
And you know, nothing chiropractors a good Chiropractic can help 90% of its base to start. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah and exactly I would rather be the last topic because if something else if MSM cream or something is going to work then they should just do that usually were the people, you know, we get the people who've tried everything and nothing is helps them
that's definitely going to be the case for chronic pain when it comes to the anti-aging side of things. My strategy is you know, I'm going to do everything. So I'm eating a diet that doesn't cause inflammation IE the bulletproof diet. I'd take tons of bulletproof college and stuff and you could say Dave stop plugging your products, but there's a reason I do what I do. It's because I don't want to die when I'm old. I don't want to die action when I'm young either come to think of it and I believe that stem cells systemically are one of the many things that that we can do that maybe aren't when we're at the very end end of what we can do. It's just cheaper and easier to stay young.
Then it is to get old and reverse it and I spent so much time with older people who are reversing their aging and are doing things are not supposed to be able to do. It just comes at Great expense and cost compared to doing stem cells or changing your diet or exercising or doing all the things that you can do now just to hold the line for a while. So it seems like just a fantastic shift in who's doing stem cells. Let's talk about the big gun that took it from a the normal whole body stem cell makeover to the six hands one and I'm the first person to do that and I think it's it's definitely a little extreme but also living on door Nate, he's a little extreme as well. And what we did there is when I was unconscious you had a Johns Hopkins neurosurgeon on on hand who flew in for the procedure walk me through what what Marcela did
Well, Harry, you were injecting all my various joints and Amy, you are sticking needles in places that few people have seen
sure. So Amy and I have been doing for hands full body stem cell makeover for about two years. And when Dave when we finally set a date for you to come in. I thought you know, here's the opportunity to do something special. I mean for the the original biohacker, we got to we got to come up with like something really over the top. So I invited my dear friend. Dr. Marcella Madeira who is a John as you say John Hopkins trade neural surgeon Fellowship trained in spine surgery. She got her Utah license and for your procedure, I did my normal portion Amy did her normal portion and then Marcella injected stem cells your own stem cells directly into your cerebrospinal fluid. She didn't intrathecal injection in order to deliver stem cells, theoretically directly to the brain. She also did
More advanced epidural injections along the entire length of your spine. And and then of course when we this
six hands full
body makeover includes some you know, all three of us are on call for you and you know, there's some other perks that go along with it, but it was that was just about six months ago and you look great one
of the things that I noticed after this was a really marketed change in my sleep quality and I've been tracking my sleep for a long time and my percentage of deep sleep just shot up and it stayed up to the point if I get less than an hour, even if I only sleep five hours if I get less than hour of deep sleep it's unusual now and before you know, that's where I would I would pay first and my REM sleep was some days it was high as soon as it was low. And now my REM sleep is always substantially high and I have found some more some more verbal things that are helping to improve that.
But nothing is shifted in my deep sleep the way I think the six hands procedure did for me. It's really hard to say that that was the cause. But when I look at what else did I do that would be likely to do that. The other thing that I think it contributed to and so it's again, I'm a guinea pig in this case, you know, I don't know I mean and and of One Versus having tested this on a thousand people or something, but I noticed that I I just naturally go to bed earlier. So it shifted my circadian rhythm to be more like most humans I've ever since I was maybe 10 years old. I've been step till 2:00. It's just my natural time and I write all my books. I wrote Game Changers headstrong all of them. There's this cool thing that happens after 11:00. You just go into writing mode and now I can actually go to sleep at 11. And before this procedure. That was one of the things I was just so uninteresting to be able to do so, I like to think that that I'm sleeping like a
When you're old and my sleep numbers are like a 20 year olds that numbers which is remarkable last night. I had a new record have three and a half hours of REM sleep and seven hours of sleep. So wow, that's great. Now Harry have you had six hands procedure even though you're
normally two of the hand. I want one. I know I'm trying to figure out which of my friends I want to talk into coming out to Park City to do it. But no idea I would I definitely want my entire spine treated and you know, the way the people that we've treated because a lot of times we'll get people who really just have low back pain, but they've got a little bit of neck stiffness and they've got a little and then they have sort of this long laundry list of Minor injuries, but no major problem areas, but the people who decide to do it the way they described it is, you know, when you get a really great full body deep tissue massage and you feel great for two days after and then you kind of normalize after that. Well, what people are saying is that they they have that terrific feeling that lasts months and years
later.
I see you haven't done it yet, but you've definitely had some stem cells. Oh
for sure. I've had lots of little injuries.
Okay, so you normally driven that way. How about the Cosmetic stuff?
I haven't had any done. I've had. Yeah, I've done I've done some procedures on myself. Not infrequently stem
cells stem cells on
yourself. I dunno. I'm not the actual stem cells because I can't do my own life was actually thinking I have done. I have had it done and I've done exposome exosomes and PRP injections on myself. I do micro needling on myself fairly frequently couple times a year. Yeah. I've tried to kind of build up a tolerance to Needles of my own face.
I have pretty good tolerance for needles almost anywhere and even in the face like I've injected my own face a few times, but it's it's just not that comfortable.
It's not comfortable but it's worth it definitely flies in the face of self-preservation
and both of you though. Look very very healthy.
People who watch the video short on YouTube and you can check it out. These are two very healthy looking people and having access to stem cells I think is one of those things that's that's a good move. Now. Let's talk about the hard stuff. A lot of people say stem cells are for rich people. What's your take on that Harry?
Well, it depends on the my experience is that this treatment is for people who have their priorities straight. This is for people who value their own bodies and value their quality of life. We don't necessarily get rich people we get people who want to be out of pain. So at our Clinic we have to price points. We have the price point to see me. We have the price point to see my associate who is excellent. I mean, I you know me, I'm enough of a perfectionist. Yeah that if I didn't have complete confidence that my associate would do an excellent job. I wouldn't let him do anything. He's almost
Half the cost of me and then starting this June we're rolling out a tithing model. We're going to be dedicating one day a month to doing stem cell procedures not at no cost but it's going to be people who are in who have Financial need where you can demonstrate that they are that they are in financial need and we are going to do stem cell treatments in exchange for documentation of community service hours.
I think that is so epic. So people who need the stem cell procedures for their quality of life can't afford it that police officers teachers are people like that
60 hours of community service will buy you a treatment of your joints and a hundred hours of community service will buy us treatment of your spine.
That's that's awesome. So you're giving back to local community and it seems like over time even since we first started doing procedures together you've
The custom come down just in general and I feel like I feel like that Moore's Law of stem cells is happening. Have you seen fundamental changes in the technologies that is it easier to get stem cells out than it used to be. Is it cheaper? Is it faster? It's just more people doing it. Got it. Okay. So there's more Supply now. All right. It's a big part of my goal in doing bulletproof radio is to increase the demand for stuff that works and therefore to increase the supply of it. There's more people doing it and some with more experience some with less but that's making it just more accessible to everyone. What is what's the starting cost for someone who comes in to say you do knees or something like that
with my Approach. I do a kitchen sink approach. I do bone marrow stem cells from your bone marrow combined with stem cells from your fat combined with a little bit of amniotic fluid combined with some exes. Ohms all done under sedation. So these are this is what of big treatment. Yeah, you know usually
It's around 12,000. Okay, if we're doing very complex procedures it can get up to 20 if we are doing full body stem cell makeover goes on up from there if my associate is doing it. It's half that point now people have the option of just doing bone marrow. So like if my associate if somebody has arthritic knees and they need their knees injected and they just want bone marrow done which is very effective just doing bone marrow on its own to have my associate do it I think is currently just just under 5,000
compared to the cost of a knee replacement or the cost of not being able to work for a while. This is still a lot of money. Let make no bones about it, but it's not $50,000.
Well 5000 is about half the industry standard for bone marrow,
and I'm just I'm excited about that because there are a lot of people who will say, you know, I've had enough of being in pain. It's affecting everything I do and I'm going to save up for this. I'm going to do it and maybe
Be at some point we'll get insurance companies to realize it's cheaper for them to pay for that than it is to pay for a much more expensive procedure later. But that isn't happening. Now that I'm aware of are you hopeful insurance companies are going to cover this at some point.
I mean, the thing is insurance companies aren't really interested in making health care less expensive. They're interested in controlling the flow of money. So I think that I think eventually it will happen. It's hard to say how it will happen or when but we'll we'll just sort of wait and see I don't think it's going to be any time super soon.
Yeah, that that's one of those things where maybe one insurance company is going to say. Oh well do this and they'll get all of the all the insurance business from the people get a choice of where they get their health insurance because it's one of those things where this is less risk than joint replacement surgery and it seems like you might as well try this first and that's something that actually I did so my parents to you as a Christmas present.
Her birthday present one of the two and my dad really thinks that he was able to delay hip surgery for for a substantial amount of time just because of this my mother thinks it really saved her knee right? It's great. And all right. Thanks. No. Thanks for doing that. I just I want it. I want to see a world where every retirement home as someone saying I time to get all you guys upgraded. I would love to hear from both of you. If you put on your your 10-year what's in the future hats for stem cells. Why don't we start a me with with your take on the the Cosmetic and anti-aging and regenerative side of things. Where do you think it's going to go?
Well, I think stem cells will just continue to become more available to people. I think they'll be more stem cell options may be kind of off the shelf options so you can you can buy so allogeneic stem cells from someone else who are healthy umbilical cells exosomes things like this. So maybe we don't do it a
You're on every patient, but we can get some of those Products off the shelf and and we'll find different ways to use them in the skin and hair that maybe are less expensive because it's not quite so invasive, you know, and it'll just become something that we're doing much more frequently cellular medicine is on the you know, we're doing so much more of it and we will continue to in the next five years or ten years so much so that it's going to change the way that we practice medicine just in general it'll replace a lot of the medications and surgeries whether it's for Aesthetics or hair join sir, or anything does different diseases. It'll really be quite the sort of Revolution.
Hey harry, what's up? So essentially a me for we get to your answer Harry you're really saying is going to be cheaper and more available and you won't have to pull someone's bone marrow to get it done. All right,
and that's a you know, I'm pretty much of the same thing to say. It's all going to be about regulation and this country in the United States. It's all going to be about figuring out the regulation because we know really the the
One
of Youth here is using culture expanded stem cells from very young sources either placental or umbilical cord or even bone marrow a very young people but having the ability to culture expand them and then legally administer them therapeutically, which currently we cannot do currently have to go out of the country for
that. No culture expanding means just taking your your cells one time and growing a lot more of them in a lab. Right? But we're talking about we're
talking about using like umbilical cord cells or placental cells because you know for me is a fifty-year-old. I would much rather have much younger stem cells, but you need very large quantities, you know, there are umbilical cord stem cells available commercially currently, but in very low doses is so it's really you mean you could do huge doses, but it would be astronomically expensive culture expanding the makes it affordable. So you could take
umbilical stem cells from one donor and you could grow hundreds of millions of cells.
Those and use those for many different people. But today we have this whole thing set up where we're harvesting all these different umbilical cords taking out about what 3 million cells and then just using them directly instead of growing the video and you'll make a lot of sense for a
single dose. You really need more in the neighborhood of a hundred million, which you can do very easily with culture expanded cells, but so really, I mean, I think that's that's what needs to happen is we need to work out the regulation which is going to take a very long time because it's going to be a huge it's not just a it's not a scientific battle. It's an economic Bond battle
are there countries where you can go out and spend $20,000 and get your own culture expenditure cells or get someone else's culture expensive. So it's
just about any other country in the world. Okay, so we're a little bit behind on
that you bet. All right. There's still a good reasons to get your stem cells that in the u.s. I've done the vast majority of what I've done here just because despite the higher expense and all that stuff. There are definitely some safety regulations that are that are useful.
Where can people find out more about stem cells are about the whole body makeover stuff you guys are doing
well on our website doceri clinics.com Dio cere clinics.com one word. Okay, and we have a tab full-body stem cell makeover. It's right there.
Alright, and if you are attending the sixth annual biohacking conference, you are definitely going to be able to see dr. Harry and dr. Amy there. They'll be speaking and I think Gia's have a booth there as well I could deal so you'll be able to talk to them there. That's April 5th through 7th at the Beverly Hilton in Los Angeles and XP not upgrade labs.com as that info and the URL where they talk about all these procedures we just covered is at
Dio cere clinics.com now, I've got one more question for both of you you both listen to the show. I know because we're friends and you've heard me ask this three three things we want to perform better everything you've actually answer that question. So this is going to be different one because I'm working on my anti-aging book and we'll start with you Harry. How long do you want to live?
Oh, I'd say I'd be happy with a hundred ten hundred ten. Why?
That seems like a reasonable number to me. That's it. Yeah, that's it your
stem cell guy and you think that's the best you can do.
That's I don't know. I think I could probably run it out further than that, but that I don't know that number works for me.
That's your number. All right. I'll try to call you a wuss. Just kidding. Anyway, what's your answer now that we have death
shaming I got I would like to live well to about a hundred and thirty I think okay where I'm just super healthy and then at the very end, I just fall off the cliff and that's it. All right. What else
are you doing a me to get you there besides stem cells
stem cells are a big part of it. I mean just general, you know good lifestyle choices. I think is the other part of it. I do a lot of sort of Mind Body Work yoga. I try to eat healthy exercise regularly and you know have a lot of good close friends and family connections, which I think is really important for for longevity. There's those are the main things. I don't take a ton of supplements right now. I tried to just eat healthy, but
Right now, I'm really just focusing mostly on sort of keeping my mind healthy and surrounding myself with sort of positive people and good influences. And and I'm working on that part of it right now. All right, Harry. What are you
doing to live to just a hundred and ten
under under under promising and over-delivering?
He's sandbagging is like I'm going to beat you Dave. I just don't want to say it. All right. Now you've earned you've earned some respect back on that one Harry.
I have the most fantastic family at home.
There you go. Having a good family will always help. All right. There you go. I think that you learn some more about stem cells and we went deep on the really unusual procedure that I just went through and I want to be the guinea pig for you so that you can figure out whether the return on investment for you and eating a different way exercising a different ways sleeping in a different way. We're doing any of the other things that you might choose to do is worth it including stem.
And I'm I'm a hundred percent events having done several different rounds that these have been a really big really big change for me and I'm in my mid-40s granted. I had a lot of these sort of Aging Associated conditions way earlier in life than the average person and I'm beyond them now, but I'm truly grateful for that and I I just want you when you listen to this to say number one. It's possible and number two. I don't have to spend nearly as much as what Dave did getting there because I have I've done everything I can possibly find it a lot of it just didn't work or didn't work very well or we didn't have the knowledge when I saw doing this 20 years ago. It's about The Best Time Ever to decide you want to get younger or you want to stay young or you just want to perform better because you already young used you want your career to work, right and you want to be able to do more than you're supposed to be able to do it's more possible now than it's ever been and talking about cool stuff like exomes is
the path of getting there
if you like today's episode, you know what to do. If you're interested in stem cells head on over to doceri clinics.com and check out what's there there's photos and just other good information for you. I think it's worth your time worth your energy. It's worth investigating.
Bulletproof radio was created and is hosted by Dave asprey. The executive producer is Selena peickert shear and the podcast assistant is Bev hampson research is provided by Darcy Himes and all technical aspects are handled by our podcast Mastermind Brock Armstrong. This podcast is for information purposes. Only statements and Views expressed on his podcast are not medical advice this podcast including Dave asprey in the producers disclaim responsibility for any possible adverse effects from the use of information contained herein opinions of guests are their own in this podcast is not endure to accept responsibility for statements made by guests. This podcast is not make any representations or warranties about Guest qualifications or credibility is podcast may contain paid endorsement and advertisements for products or Services individuals on this podcast may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or Services refer to here in if you think you have a medical problem consult a licensed physician
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