To believe in Ledger. You didn't have to believe any particular crypto narrative. You just had to believe that there will be more digital assets tomorrow than there were yesterday and the security will be an issue, right? Okay, check and check. And there's another important one. I think with Ledger is that you have to believe in the importance of self custody. And that self custody is itself. Something important that Humanity will value in the future.
Give me one,
Kevin Rose here. Welcome to another episode of proof. I am thrilled to be back on multiple levels. One came down with covid, couple weeks ago. Just coming out of that feeling a lot better. And then also, just all the chaos that has been happening with moon. Birds has kept me so busy and I apologize for the lack of episodes, but it is certainly good to be back and recording, more proof episodes.
We hope to return to our
regular weekly Cadence
here. Very soon. Boom. Bert's was a smashing success kind of blew us away. And we've been just really busy hiring up a team to kind of flesh out and build out all the different product plans that we have over the next 12 to 18 months. So we couldn't be more excited to have the capital to go and just build amazing products. Speaking of which, I'm going to be re focusing my efforts and focus solely on all things.
Has proof and moon Birds, which means that I am actually moving. So I'm moving down to Los Angeles, California. The vast majority of meetings that I've been doing over the last series of weeks with all different types of creatives. Some of the engineers. I'm talking to some of the media companies. I'm talking to do Partnerships with almost all this happening out of Los Angeles. So it just makes a lot of sense to call that our new home base by co-founder. Justin is moving out there as well. It is really exciting. But as you can imagine taking your whole family and
From Oregon to Los Angeles and then also opening up an office at the same time. I was just down there last week, looking at office spaces, and we're getting ready to pull the trigger on an office. So, we could build a proper Studio there. Finally get our video podcasting Productions up and running lots of stuff going on, as you can imagine. So this episode is very exciting. I've been looking forward to recording with Ian for quite some time. Today's guest is the in Rogers and Ian is been a friend of mine for a while now, and just someone I'm really
Respected. And I'd always heard about operating in this space, but really never had a chance to connect with until more recently, when I say I've previously heard about them. It's because he's done so many crazy creative things as an entrepreneur first, starting out as the founding webmaster with these. The call them webmasters back. In the 90s, the founding webmaster of the Beastie Boys.com website when he went on tour with the Beastie Boys, which is just Insanity, must have been a ton of fun and then ended up being the VP and general manager of Yahoo. Music.
Chairman and CEO of topspin, the CEO of Beats Music, senior director of Apple, music and just goes on. And on, actually, one of the roles I do want to highlight is, who's the chief digital officer for lvmh, which is a massive, massive multi-billion dollar luxury conglomerate, which is just a huge undertaking. And then now is the chief experience officer at
Ledger really
coming in and making Ledger. I really easy to use product fixing.
A lot of the pain points that we're having in crypto and we get into a lot of that today. So let's have a chat with him. This is Ian Rogers.
And thank you so much for joining me on the show.
Thank you for having me. Glad we can do this.
Yeah, I mean we scheduled this podcast like Den time. So I
think it's probably for the best. You know, last time we were supposed to talk. It was on the eve of the Moon Birds launch and I just feel like you might have had a couple things on your mind that day.
Yeah, that's right. I remember you were so gracious to let me reschedule because it was just like, there was so much going on and I was traveling back and it was just it was a lot on all different fronts. So
Oh congratulations. Thank you. Bruce super fun to watch from. I was a bright moments in Berlin that weekend, but all eyes on moon Birds.
Yeah, it's been, it's been a crazy few weeks. So it's one of those things where I've been running around desperately trying to hire people up and, and just, you know, like a bunch of holes and get staff on board to build all these ambitious things that we want to build, but you also are working on very ambitious things that as part of the reason why I wanted to have you on the show and cover all of that, but I think the
Gray thing would be it mean you are just you are so you have so much history in the space and technology and being a technologist and building fantastic things in the past. I'd love to start with like your journey to where you are today because that's a great story to tell
sure. I mean it's a it's a little long so I'll try to make it a try to make it brief, but I mean, I've always been and I think it's actually important in some ways. I've always been a record collector and I do feel like, you know, there's something about being a
Of record collector of vinyl collector, collector of any kind that makes, you know, the world of entities, make pretty quick sense to you. So the fact that I've been collecting records since I was five years old and programming computer since I was eight years old, certainly plays into the story, but then I was, I was a skateboarder in high school, the computers, kind of disappeared from my
house. When I was saying
14 years old because my mom, my stepdad divorce. And then it was just for me skateboarding and punk rock. And that that also is important in the journey, actually, because I've always felt like,
You know, if you'd ever made a Zine with a sharpie and a photocopier that the internet made sense to you immediately because you saw this this like distribution Network that didn't exist. You know, I think if you're somebody who loves and mainstream culture that the internet is probably really disappointing because you get that sort of continual move toward away from Mass and and toward Niche. But if you grew up loving Niche, like me, it was like, you know, getting my mom to drive me from Goshen, Indiana to South Bend, Indiana. So I could buy a copy of
Maximum rock and roll and then mail-order vinyl out of the back of Maximum rock and roll. Then the internet comes along, you're like, oh man, this this is incredible, like look, you know, your there's access to everything. Look there's some site in Norway about death metal, you know to me, that was what I loved about the internet when I when I really got on when I started college in 1990 and and so I started college. I studied computer science. I I built the first sort of search and stream system as a project for the, Indiana.
The university music library pre-web on a next computer in the early in the early 90s. And so that's a longer story that I won't bore you with but that was 20 years. Then for me of Groundhog Day a building streaming music. I mean, I started building streaming music pre-web in the late 90s was part of a little startup called null soft that made Winamp and shoutcast and myrcella. So that to AOL,
the too many people were there when you joined
there were really there. I was the first employee so there was Justin Frankel who
Only person that ever touched the win up to code, there was Tom pepper out in Iowa who did some of the interface design and kept the server's alive. And there was Rob Lord who had started. I Yuma the internet underground music. Archive who came in to kind of be this, this Biz Dev guy and I had and ice not the right term. I mean, Rob was basically kind of adult supervision, even though we Rob and I were only in our 20s, you know, we were probably close to 10 years older than Justin at that time, who was, you know, 17 18, 19 years old when he was doing
Winamp. And and then I was, I came in to run when a.com which had, you know, 50,000 skins and 5,000 plugins and the Skins man. It
says right right. It is skins Ivy. Come on. First, first
nft. I ended up buying was was, it was win out and then somebody had done like a 3D rendering of what would win at be if you could put it in your pocket basically. And that was the first nft. I bought. So when I was and when I was a family, really? I to me, I just thought like, you know, we all hung out in
And pound. No soft on EF net. And you know people like Napster and the guys who went on to start You Know, audio Scrambler which became Last.fm when people that hung out in the null soft chat room. It was I mean in a way like there's so much of this that feels like today, you know, I mean, pound pound also offered an EF net. What's the difference between that and in this court
today, right? I mean,
same saying, so it was amazing. And then so Rob and I left and I skipped an important part of the story. I dropped out of grad.
Add School in 1995 to go on tour with the Beastie Boys and and that was my introduction to the music business and ultimately actually how I ended up at no soft as well. Because when I was on tour, at the Beastie Boys in 1998, I was posting, I was recording from the soundboard and then I would run backstage and you encode an MP3 at a Dos command line. By the way, Yan, and then
post little using it for das was the ffmpeg know, what was it? What was the accused was
ffmpeg? That's how the right? Yeah, exactly. And you know, because at that point, we
You know, City ripping and encoding was all command line
stuff. Yeah, that's right.
Barely a GUI for it. But then but in those days also in this really this is all this stuff does remind me a lot of today, you know, you think about it that was 1998 that we were on tour. If you look at kind of the the curve of Crypt or web three adoption today at follows roughly the curve, the internet and tells you that wearing kind of 98 99. And again, these were the days when, you know, if I post an MP3 on Beastie Boys.com I had to post an explainer.
Iran. How to play it, right? You know, it was like your computer didn't come with an audio card. Your audio card didn't come with a speaker. You know, I mean,
yeah doesn't know what happened. Was there any portable players at all or no?
No, I'm the first one. I remember was MP3 man, and
that would be 3 man. Yeah, I
think that was like 98 or 99. Even remember the diamond wheel. We surely have to Diamond Rio which you could actually buy it
fries. It was wow,
and then there were some because it was definitely 99. I think I had an in dash.
I feel like maybe it was a Pioneer that would play it. A burned CD of that MP3s on it. Yes. So you were starting, you were starting to get that. Then. I think this is this is what it feels like to me today. Like look, if you want to do a web three project today, you've got to put up an explainer in an FAQ and then hold people's hand and tell them how to get through to it. And, you know, this is also why I have total confidence that user experience will change. Every today we take for granted that you just hit play on your phone and music comes out of it. Right? And and we and and in 9899 that
Asian was all there like we knew it would end up there but none of the of the technology was there. And and so that's it, just feels so
familiar. And also don't forget that it was it was a lot of work to like, you know, you did give CD ripping software put your CDs in. Make sure you have enough space and then, yeah, you would make your own folders and either players had to support the the folder hierarchy, in order to see the all the different mp3s and it was a very much and almost all
the metadata medical editing and then oh, what are you ripping on it? So it went
28 is is a vbr, a br. CBR, you know, and I mean now a none of me people don't even realize that it's a that that Spotify is OG vorbis and you know an apple is AC and by the way, neither of them are MP3, right?
So right, you know, there's
that, that it's just funny what we take for granted now, but I think that's really a luster. Dave. I think that it's important to realize that, you know, this stuff will get worked out all of these usability pains in there. So many of them in web three today.
They of course they're going to get worked out. It'll take ten years, but they will ultimately get worked out and your identity will be in your wallet. Of course, your passport will be a digital document of course and and there are so many people, you know, today. Who you know, don't believe that just like, you know, even in 2001-2002 the music business thought they were going to sell compact discs forever. Okay, you know, talk to me in ten years. It's a few just feel the same way over and over and over today, when people can't get
Head around digital assets. Generally. It's like, you know, it was, was the internet in 1998, both overhyped and unquestionably. Inevitably the future. Yes, you know. Same, same today. So I think that's, that's where the lesson. The lesson really comes in this, but then for me, I'll just have to finish out. The journey was a really kind of got the got the gist of it in a way because it was just kept going. I did Yahoo! Music because we because Robin I started another company.
We sold to Yahoo! In 2003 and Dave Goldberg brought us into into Yahoo. So did Yahoo! Music and when Dave left left, Yahoo! Took over, Yahoo! Music did a company called topspin which was not a success raised 19 million and in Venture sold it for three in the end. So amazing company. Amazing people, great experience, super proud of what we did from an idealistic perspective and a lot of it carries on in, you know, and things like, bandcamp etcetera, but, but but not not a commercial success, which of course,
Is a is a good lesson to learn. Then did Beats music with Jimmy Iovine? Dr. Dre Trent Reznor, Luke would. And and that whole crew. I was a CEO Beats Music, which was the, the streaming service. When we sold the whole package to Apple built, Apple music, with Jimmy and Trent, and my friend, Zane Lowe who I saw here in Los Angeles last night after too many years or so good too. So good to be back together. And and then I get this call from France. From you know, they say if you know
You ever heard of lvmh? I said, no. I mean I know now that that's, you know, because I'm a skateboarder from Indiana. But I mean, I endured the brands. Louis Vuitton Celine Dion, your Hennessy, you know, tag your you blow etcetera, Etc. I didn't know there was one family in France that, that that owned that owned the whole thing, but I, you know, I did my homework and I was super interested. Also me like meeting and spending time with Alexander are no, and then I don't know. And
Nicola Brunel and other people from the group was just, like kind of sold and, and also just ready to eject from digital music because for me, after that 20 years, seeing Apple music on every iPhone. I was so proud, you know? Just felt like my life's work. It's like, wow, we went from science fiction to every iPhone, that's incredible. And yeah, it also, it felt like the finish line for me more than the starting line. I was like, okay, we did it. But now what like am I am? I am using
Like, industry executive. That was never, never my goal personally. And, and I had this opportunity to kind of eject out of that and do something else. So, I took the role of Chief digital officer at lvmh, which was kind of, you know, it was an incredible because you've got this oversight of all of the brands, you get to look at all of the all of the brands and all of the Strategic plans, and all of the budgets, and Etc, and inner workings of all of these, truly incredible Brands, I mean,
You could teach you know, you could get definitely Harvard Business School if they had access to, you know, what I had access to in terms of, you know, lvmh could teach Forever
on quite the Playbook. It's
incredible and and and so so much of it is somewhat counterintuitive, you know, and Michael Burke it at Louis Vuitton. I'll tell you that everyone at the company has taken an oath against short-term revenue and and they take a 100 Year time Horizon on all of their brands.
Which for me coming from, you know, from technology was just like, wait what? I I can't think past six months a hundred years. What are you talking about? But it was just incredible to be able to be that close to the to the fire with those incredible CEOs and and the family and the CEOs really are incredible. You know, if you think about it in music business, you've got a lot of people who love music but are maybe not the best Executives because if they were, they might be in a bigger industry and then in Tech, you've got a bunch of CEOs.
Who are brilliant and they're, you know, crime for being brilliant. I mean, sorry, their punishment for being brilliant. Inventors is to be a CEO, right? Whereas at they'll be mates. You just have like, world-class CEOs, you know, these guys are, you know, the best of the best. So for me, I feel like I went to business school for five years by a, by working at lvmh but also right. When I moved to Paris. I met this guy. Pascal Gautier through our friend, Toby Koppel and Mosaic Capital. He's ago in your move.
In Paris, you got to me, Pascal's. Okay, and but this guy when I met him I was just like wait, who are you kidding? Like, can we be friends? Because Pascal is so smart. So cool. Really iconoclastic like not like all of the other people, I was meeting when I, when I moved to France at all and we became friends, our families became friends, but Pascal happen to also be the first seed investor in this little French crypto company called Ledger and
As, you know, seven years ago, and he went from as the company, scaled. The company was seen as started by some really brilliant French technologists who knew, you know, cryptography and and security and how to program these incredibly difficult to program, secure chips. But as the company scaled, Pascal went from a board member to president and ultimately CEO and around 2018. We started talking about, you know, okay, what is there?
Is there a role for for me? And in this and for me, the pandemic, was that moment where I was like, okay, you know, I've been five years at lvmh. I'm fully onboard with The Ledger, I by throwing my opportunity costs in with Ledger because from my calculus like to believe in Ledger, you didn't have to believe any particular crypto narrative. You just had to believe that there will be more digital assets tomorrow than there were yesterday and the security will be an issue, right? Okay, check and check and there's another
Important one, I think with Ledger is that you have to believe in the importance of self custody and that self custody is itself. Something important that Humanity will value in the future, which, which I think is a conversation that, you know, it can be debated to me. There's no question. It's a, it's a right. It's a freedom and, and it's important. So for me, you know, when you believe in digital assets, if you believe in, you know, the security will be a key challenge within digital assets. And
When you do, you believe that self custody is, is kind of a new new right or a new freedom for Humanity. If then then Ledger is, you know, it's like this incredible low beta on the entire digital asset space. So that's it. That's kind of my life story and how I ended up here. Yeah. I think the only part I left out is it, you know, I had a kid when I was 17 and that's been a huge part of my life and it just in terms of like making me grow up fast and, you know, be a little more responsible than I, you know, that I was before.
But yeah, but
Probably a good thing as someone that was also a fellow skater and into punk rock scene. I dodged a few bullets or myself. So I definitely can appreciate anything that adds a little structure there. Again. I think it pulled me out of that because it was, it was fun. But, you know, you've I think that it tell me if this is the case for you. I have like friends that went one or two directions, you know, it's like some of us kind of like decided to get our shit together and actually, you know, build and make something and others kind of went the other path and fortunately,
But
totally yeah, I mean and you're like, you know, when you're again come when your record collector and your into your into obscure shit, like you're an obsessive compulsive on some level, right? And then it's like, okay. What are you what are you going to apply that to, you know, and I always I mean, we're all we're all fucking crazy in some way and I'm just feel lucky that the way I'm crazy as turned out to be, you know, useful to someone. Yeah. I put I put tattoos on my fingers when I was 21 years old expressly, so I would never
I have a real job. Like that was my reasoning for doing it as to protect my current My Future Self, you know, from from that fate and I remember six sitting with Jerry Yang in a meeting at Yahoo and thinking God. Damn. This didn't work. They got much. I really tried. But these guys still take me seriously. I must be good at
something. Yeah. Now it's getting even worse, like the cool thing. They're like, oh, he's old-school. Cool. Like we want them around like yeah. There's nothing you can do it to pretty much.
Offend anyone these days. I
know, and I'm sitting there with Ben. I don't know. I'm like, well, okay, I guess the tattoos didn't work. I'll keep trying. But no, I do. I really do feel lucky that I get to kind of play in play, in both worlds. I get to like, you know, love music, the way that I do and Love Culture, the way that I do. And that's why I, to me. I mean, even when I took, you know, when I took this job when I said yes to joining Ledger, it was August and September of 2020. And I even then I had no idea that it would Collide soda.
Rectly with my previous life in music and it'll be MH where I'm you know talking to Mad to music and of Team meetings today already. Okay, you know and it's like it's just amazing. It's like I feel super lucky that, you know, this sort of like lifetime of, you know, being at the intersection of technology and culture kind of culminates in this world that, you know, you talk about on this podcast every week. Yeah.
I'm curious, you know, given that you've seen obviously worked on insanely.
Lee polished, beautiful, easy to use products over your career. When you look at web three and it was a great kind of analogy use early on with this idea that, you know, how hard it was to even get an MP3 to player to explain to people. You know, we're facing that today in Spades, you know, with with metal mask and smart contracts and understanding what's going on there. What are the pain points that you see? When you're watching users, just interact with crypto in general. And then how are
Trying to fix those at Ledger
that mean there really are a lot of them, but it's also in really trying to avoid the thing where you go. Oh, it's so hard to use and you sort of throw up your hands and then like that's where the conversation ends. So I'm trying every time now and I'd love to ask you this question. You know what, you know, when I whenever someone says I'm like, what specifically are you referring to? So, what I've found so far and then I'm curious to hear, you know, if you have any additions to it that the big ones are and I'm going to kind of put them in order of the experience, not necessarily.
We priority order. But the order of, you know, when I think about it with Ledger or any other wallet, you've got this issue of the 24 words and and that self custody part of it. And I think there's two levels of pain there. One is just as cognitive level of like, what is it? What are you talking about? Like, what are these words? Like, what am I supposed? What do they represent? And, and I think there are a lot of people who have been in the space for a while, who don't really understand the threat model very well. So one is like, if you don't understand it, then you don't, then you.
I don't take care of your 24 words. That's a, that's a really bad outcome. Potentially. You know, I mean, if you either just sort of neglect to put them somewhere safe or maybe you screenshot them, or maybe you put them in, you know, they can email them to yourself. Like, there's a bunch of things that you coming from the web to world. Might seem normal that are like, completely disastrous in web three, and if you don't really understand the threat model, then then you, you know, then you might just do the wrong thing. And and then the other is like, you're like, but wait, I don't understand it.
My recover, can I recover on any wallet? Like how does that work? And right? Wait, if I have a backup, how does that work? And so and also it's it's once you, once you really get your head around it, then you realize how powerful it is, you know that but then you also understand where the threats are exactly. So that's why I say there's there's kind of a usability challenge here, but there's also just like it's going to take some time and maybe even a generation for people to understand this conceptually. So I think that's a big one. And so we're
King on making that a lot easier for people and, you know, you can even think of going as far as backup and recovery of seed phrase in a secure way, you know, for people that are that want to opt into a service like that and I think the other big one from a usability perspective is just connectivity to web three so, you know, you've got, you know, and that's a when you think about that across both browser and mobile and then the way that it connects to all these different sites and all these different chains.
Right, because it's like, okay. Well, let's say that I want to in a given day, interact with, you know, Open Sea object.com, you know, and Magic Eden. Well, guess what? There's no wallet that does that right? You know, I mean, that's a really basic one. And, and so that's, you know, and, and so that's why we just announced two weeks ago, Ledger connect, which is a cross chain wallet and do exactly that we're starting in as a safari plugin for iOS, because that's a place where,
It's sorely needed. There's basically no way to connect to web three from IOS that, that really works. Well, and definitely, no way. That's cross chain. So, from our perspective, you know, the ability to use secure Hardware, like Ledger and then connect directly to web three through your browser. That's a pretty big step forward, you know, and I don't use wallet connect. I don't have two contacts which I just like do it all from inside of inside of my browser. So those are I think you know to to really big ones and I think actually you know, what I
I find with Ledger with people is that the onboarding step is very daunting to them that once they're through that. It's actually, you know, it's pretty usable and there are some there are some key problems like with that big problem, met a mask and led your last summer. And even now that we're through that you've got the simple things where like, okay, if I don't have the ethereum app open at the time, I, you know, at the time I opened my transaction, it doesn't open the app automatically and you're just like so simple, right? We
So there are, there are definitely those things that we're trying to kind of iron out one by one but really, like once you get through the onboarding, you know, you can, you can do a lot of what you want to do, pretty easily in your browser. Now again, I don't want to say it's it's for for newbies, like, for the reasons. I just said, but we're at you. Can I feel like I can see around the corner and see the light at the end of the tunnel. So I really feel like if we can get that onboarding, you know, super smooth and then we can, you know, get that connect.
Activity, to be really ubiquitous. We're at the next, the next plateau of usability. And then I think we also need bigger bigger screens. Ultimately. So, you know, that's something that, you know, we would, we would also we hear that from our customers about your customers, and we would, and we're pushing toward that,
as well as a bigger device, right, for a hot minute and then you guys abandon it, right?
Correct. We had The Ledger blue which, which in this was the idea bigger device, bigger screen, you know, the
The device was really released prematurely. It just wasn't ready for prime time. And, you know, we push it to Market anyway, and that was a mistake. We still use the blue with Ledger Enterprise. So if you're an Enterprise customer, a bank government of brand, you know, big nft project, anyone really who needs governance and you're using larger Enterprise, then you use Ledger blue, but you know, it's certainly, you know, in our minds and I won't say anymore yet. But you know that that a device with a bigger screen, is something that that everybody including
Leading us W. So that'll definitely see us innovate there. And then I think a couple other places that really deserve Innovation. We also announced when we announced Ledger connect a product called Web, three check and the idea with with that is just that your wallet should be doing some sanity checks before you sign. Right. I mean a, you know, you while come to clear signing in just one second, but you know, before you do anything, your wallet should be telling you like, you know, we've we know this.
Tract and it, you know, it's on the white list or it should say, you know, we've never seen this before. This contract is not that old it, there's something about it that is fishy, doesn't match. You know, the URL that you think, it does, whatever, you know what I mean, those kind of warnings which are sort of like, you know, fishing sort of warning. So that's that's what three check. And then the other is really blind signing. I mean, think about what you go through with DocuSign. It's kind of a pain in the ass, right? You got to open the document, you look at the document you sign in all these places.
Has maybe read it, maybe you don't, but you could read it. It's all in front of you. Yet. When we're, when we're signing, you know, when we're almost signing a smart contract. We just go. Yeah, it sounds good. Click
and reciting looks like totally
immutable, you know, and we're just like, oh, blind sign. So, you know, we're working on making that more human readable so that you can you can you know, see the wallet impact, post sign, you know, if you know this I
Transaction, I'm going to be down one board 80k. Is that what I want? You know, if so sign if not, maybe
reject in a soulmate or this is, what's this many entities that exposure or risk or you know, anything like that would be
huge. Exactly. So that clear signing is is a big thing for us and we'll have more. We already have clear signing to send an f t. So if you're sending an EFT, he's from one person to another. You should definitely be using Ledger live to do it because it's the only way to clear sign and send it in of tea from
From from Hardware, you know, but, you know, you you, you want to be placing bids and putting things on sale and, you know, lots of other things that you're that you're blind signing for today that you should be clear sighting for particularly, with the, you know, with the big sites, right? We're all kind of doing the same thing all day, every day and, and decoding those contracts and giving you a human readable version of that is, is top and. And that'll also, you know, that's also important. That's also why a bigger screen becomes important, right? Yeah, because you want to, you want to be able to
More. There's so I think those are those are all those are all things that we're doing in and need to be worked on. And I think that, you know, look, we're going to be using a second piece of hardware for a long time, you know, the, the devices that we have on our desktops and in our pockets are not built for security driving around La. I'm sure you've seen these, the Apple privacy ads and I just like it just makes me want to give people copies of. This Is How They tell me the world ends, you know, because like if
I've read that book then you know Apple you led like tell Jeff Bezos or khashoggi that apples, you know iPhone as a privacy device like, you know, sorry to be morbid, but seriously, you know, yeah, you know if somebody wants into your phone, they're going to get into your phone period And so, you know, that's a that that's not going to be reality for the next few reps of of any, you know, iPhone or Samsung device. So we're going to be using these, you know, secondary devices like
Ledger for the foreseeable future. So, you know we need to we need to kind of, you know, we collectively as an industry need to rebuild, you know, the the web to devices, you know, ground up to be tart, you know, to with web three in mind, with digital Assets. In mind, with security, in mind, security of our identity security of our email and our photos Etc. It's a converter world. Do you
Think we're, you know, there
has been to two point though. The marketing is strong with these companies and you listen to Samsung and some other say, we built these special, specialized chips that are dedicated security or apple Hazard secure Enclave or whatever. Maybe is there a world where you as a company ever get comfortable enough with some of the security, you know on chip security. That Apple provides are some other manufacturer provides where you say, okay, we can you no longer need to actually have a hardware. Key will be the software that uses.
They're on device Hardware or is Jesus, don't think it's ever going to be possible.
It's a great question. I think it diving the day does come ultimately. And I think the interesting thing about it is it's yes it comes and it's not that near, you know, right now you got the secure Enclave, but you still have to take the, you know, the seed phrase out of The Enclave to work with it and then you know, and then, you know, put it back in or delete it so it does get exposed in the
A way that the architecture is today, you know, you can actually Charles GMA who's Ledger? CTO, did a nice talk on this at The Ledger open and December and it's available on our YouTube channel where he talks about about this specifically at the same time. Yes, I think, you know, the challenges, your phone has. It's like, if I gave you the task of, you know, guarding a billion dollars in gold bars in a building and you started on that task and then I called you like a month into your planning and
Oh, and by the way, I'm going to put a nightclub and a shopping mall and a kindergarten on the ground floor of that building. You know, I mean, this is this is what your phone is contending with. Is that you know, it's kind of trying to do everything and we all know what, how many times have you had to update Chrome with a with a critical update in the past month. Right? Like, I think at least twice in the past month. And so that's up challenges that they're trying to do so much. Now, the magic of what's interesting is a magic of Ledger is actually the same as the magic of
Apple and that kind of unsung operating system level, right? I mean, Hardware is hardware. And, and yes, I mean Apple has done an incredible job with the M1, you know, etcetera, but you know, the, you know, you can, you can take apart an iPhone and see what's inside of it, but really difficult to rebuild, you know, iOS or OS X. And and by the way, they're totally still reliant on things that were developed, you know, at next in the late 80s in a way, you know, I mean, it's operating systems are
Kind of the ultimate in, you know, building on previous knowledge.
Yeah, I think it's still BSD behind the scenes on on, on the OS side, right? Was definitely a stick or something. I don't know what it is
today. But I love. I always loved as a next fanatic and somebody that has the next logo tattooed on my leg circuit 1991. The fact that the window is still called NS window on the OS X. You know, I'm like, yes, I felt really Vindicated. It's like, you know, yeah, I asked Tony fadell this question straight up. I was like, without it. Am I, right? Or am I wrong that? Without next?
Step. We don't get ios. He's like 100% 100% as I loved hearing that but that's really the point is you know, the what Ledger has that? No one else has is this operating system bolos, which you know can take all of these plugins for you know, almost 200 different types of digital assets and and operated them on these very difficult to use secure elements from SD micro. So I think that to answer your question, Kevin like kid could bulldoze run
You know on these secure elements inside of a Samsung or an Apple phone, I think so, yes, but I think that you would probably have to actually switch, you know switch operating system on some level, right? I think you'd have this this moment when you go from say Android, you know to a secure operating system on a secure trip, right? Do that signing and then you can come back to the osr.
Yeah, as I said, it sounds like the the easy win here would be Samsung comes to you and says, hey like, you know, quote-unquote the old-school Intel inside. It's like
We want Ledger inside again, work with you directly to just put it directly in device. Right?
Or I can let you know and and Samsung, you know, it has been an investor in Ledger and we've certainly had those conversations and and you know that and I think the I do think it's the thing I've become comfortable with is. Yes. This is in the future but it's not. The future is not here today. And it also this is another thing that kind of ring familiar, you know, we had lots of, if you think about it. We were you.
To your question. Earlier about the earlie diamond Rios, you know, we all kind of Imagine iPod in 1998, but we didn't really we didn't really get it. It wasn't really popularized, you know for another five years and then it was another 10 years really before we got the iPhone and then another five years after that before there were, you know billions of smartphones on the planet. So I think all of this stuff is inevitable in any industrial transformation. You have an unbundling in a re bundling, right? So right now I'm carrying around a web to device in a web 3 device.
And will there be a re bundling? Of course? Absolutely, of course, but I think it'll just take take longer than your imagination. Might lead you to believe because security is genuinely hard, you know that that's I think another big lesson here and I think this will also be a bit of a culture shift, you know, you think about it was a huge cultural shift to get people to Simply use the internet. I mean, I'm you know, you remember the people in 1998, which said that they were never going to have an email address, right? And we remember the people in 2002 that said You are never going to be able to do video and the
Annette. And you know, so there there were a really a lot of opinions had to be changed and Minds had to be changed. And I think here you also have this this educational component where people have to go from click, click click. Yes. Yes. Yes, except except except to oh man. I'm carrying around a lot of digital value. I want to be really thoughtful about, you know, how I how I protect that and that might be a smaller Market at the beginning. Like, I'm pretty sure if I got if I could get you to read the book, This Is How They tell me.
The World Ends by Nicole pearlroth. And then I asked you, hey, would you like a phone that maybe doesn't play Clash of Clans, but it is really good at, you know, protecting your crypto value, your NF tease, your email, your photos, and your messages. Which would you be interested in such a device? I think you might go. Yeah, actually. I would be interested in that device where a lot of people right now might not make that trade-off on the convenient side. Yeah, you know it.
Like no, no. No, I need one device that that, my, my daughter is going to play Candy Crush on and I want to have, you know, access to the sensitive data of, you know, every store in the lvmh network, on my phone. I what one device that has both of those things. Yeah. I think we might look back on that as a kind of absurd. You know, that you'd want one device for both of those things. But, but maybe not, maybe, you know, maybe it'll, it'll kind of become capable of it over the next 10 to 15.
15 years as well
as more and more people transition to a life away from centralized to decentralized and self custody.
What are the risks there over the long term? Look, let's just say someone has, they start off, they put 15 grand into the crypto markets today, you know a decade from now. It's worth a half. A million dollars more than make a couple good Investments. Now, they're sitting on this little USB stick somewhere that they have to take custody over are they? They're holding custody of and that they have to worry about because there is a burden that comes with that, right? There's something nice about this idea that if you have a bank account
You can kind of sleep, okay, at night knowing that unless you're doing something insanely illegal, that the funds will be there in the morning and there is a route to resolution. If should something go awry in your mind, you know, as crypto, someone over 10, 20, 30 years, their assets, get into the millions of dollars were the protections here. And how do we, how do you solve for that? And then
how do you prevent
the someone kicking?
Your front door and holding you up for your crypto. Like are there going to be time delay withdrawals? Like what's your thinking there?
Yeah. It's a great question. And I think it's really fun to imagine. You know, what does the future look like in terms of both self custody and and custody it's a and I think the way that the way that I would answer this is I think what you're going to have is a lot of consumer Choice around these and more than you have today. You know, the let's let's be honest though.
Banking system, today has as a lot of difficulties built into it. I mean, I just tried to transfer last week. I tried to transfer money from my French bank account with my name on it to my u.s. Bank account with my name on it and it cost me 45 minutes in the bank, two additional phone calls with the bank and, you know, the kind of indignity of being treated, like I might be a terrorist or a drug dealer, you know, and that's the banking system that we have today. I wanted to buy a mountain bike this week, but I was trying to buy it on the
Specialized site with my us card. I still haven't been able to buy the mountain bike and I can't actually do that. My French bank card. It's over the limit of what that will allow me to do an in a day. So, you know, I mean, so this is kind of the world that we're in now, which is often an advertisement for cryptocurrency and and owning your own money. And also I think, you know, as you know, Derek Edward slaw. So you had on one of my favorite interviews ever.
By the way, thank you so much for introducing me to that, incredible. Incredible brain. Yeah, you know, as he says very well, we're going through this kind of once inhumanity digitization of everything. And when you think of it that way, you realize there are tons of things that you have in self custody today, that will be digitized whether that's your art or your passport and your driver's license or, you know, your kind of your Collectibles, your vinyl record.
Your photos, you know, I've been taking the photos that I take of, you know, friends and family and, you know, minting them on object and dropping them in their wallets, you know, you know, so, you know, there are tons of things in your life that you have self custody of today that you'll have self custody of Tomorrow digitally before we even before we even think about about money. And then money, I think that there are many people that, you know, if you look at what's going on in El Salvador,
Adorable people are saving for the first time, you know because of because of Bitcoin, you know, the first time as you know, culturally that they're saving. And then, you know, I can absolutely imagine, you know, a bank list life for myself where, you know, my my paycheck goes directly into my ledger gets split into spending and savings. Spending is a stable coin, savings is crypto, and I have my ledger card, which pays me cash back.
Crypto. And that's how I, that's how I offer a generally speaking is using that card. I'm talking in the short term like this is my life in the next year. And then my savings is potentially on other other Nanos, right? I've got multiple devices. I can have those in, you know, in multiple places and safe places and, you know, I have zero risk of a run on the bank, you know, there's you know, if I had, there's no such, there's no such thing in this case. I don't have to, you know, go.
Oh, through what? I went through to be treated, like a criminal to transfer money from kind of one account to another. And now, what I need to worry about is kind of opsec. You know, I've got to worry about your second question, which is all right. Am I sure? I'm not going to lose these seed phrases. Am I comfortable with my personal security relative to these devices? And I think those are those are good questions and it has to do with, you know, the amount of money, the amount of risk, you're willing to take, you know, where you are in the world, you know, your family situation.
Cetera, so I think they're absolutely will be you know, custody there will be there will be reasons to you know to use custodian Solutions and hopefully those custodial Solutions will be back by Ledger Enterprise likes a crypto.com is, you know, they're you know, and and or some sort of incredible Hardware security, hopefully, they're not your, you know, your exchange isn't just using, you know, multiple Nanos with some, you know, with some with some multisig and and there are seed phrases that live with individuals because that's incredibly dangerous.
Jeurys place for your money to live as well. Right? So I think you need to think about this, the security side of things, whether you're with a custodian or, you know, or you're an individual, and the reality is on the personal security side is that, you know, the good news is your, your Ledger is not valuable to anyone if you're dead, right? And you know, if you if you put the passcode into a ledger wrong three times, it'll brick. So, you know, you it's not that hard to kind of make the device.
Effectively
disappear, so they tell you this, but my girls did that to me last week and I came out with my ledger and I was like, oh my God, because I left it sitting out and, you know, I'm going to three and four-year-old and like it was wiped is completely white and I'm just like, okay, let's let's go to the bank and see
that hard-working works. You know, it's likely that recovery phrase. I oh yeah. Oh my
God, they weren't scary for a minute. Yeah, of course. Well, I'll tell you, I
had, you know, I had, I had an exec in the crypto industry.
And I will remain unnamed who text me one night and said, wait, if I put the wrong password in this thing three times, you got a way out for me or am I screwed? I'm like, I have no way out for you. There's no way out. Like that's the way the security works. I'm and, you know, so he did something smart. He actually didn't try to put the password in a three-time. Third time. He got a second Ledger, got his recovery phrase out, you know, and set it up with the recovery phrase and then boom. He had his account and his second device and he was good. You know, I was at a proof Buzz, the proof meet up in Lisbon.
By the way, thank you again. I'm like, I'm doing the talking here by really, you know, please come on The Ledger podcast. I won't have to opt in. I want to interview you as so many questions to ask you but thank you for introducing me to so many amazing. People proof people have sought me out of econ and of course, they were brilliant. And we had an agreeable fun proof meet up in Lisbon. And the person I was sitting next to was like, you know, I wouldn't carry my ledger around me because I would be worried about losing it. And, as I can tell you what,
Why don't I just send you five and set them all up with the same passphrase and then carrying around, who cares? Yeah, right, and you know, and that's you know, because you really are, you really are safe now, would I put my entire like bag on it? No, but what I what I have, you know, a little kind of walking around eith so that I can, you know, jump into a mint.
Yeah, Ryan's actress. Absolutely. I'm the same way and you season 8 pain carrot, don't use the 44 pin passphrase to go.
28 years.
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Using a pen. And then remember that you can, you know, put a passphrase on it so that you've got a second set of account. So you've got this plausible deniability as well. So there's there are good ways to do opsec there that you really don't need to worry. And this is also why it's important to have a device like a ledger that has a secure element in it. You know, I mean, whenever somebody tells me, they have, you know, a competitor's device that doesn't have a secure element in it, who will remain nameless. I always offer to trade. I'm like, I'll tell you what, let me borrow that one for 24 hours, you
Mine for 24 hours. I'll bring it back to you tomorrow. Yeah, and because I can hit that thing with the laser and get the keys off of it right away, which is also why I wouldn't want to leave it in my apartment unattended, right? So, you know, I think that is that work
we say hit with a laser. What does that mean? Well,
so there's a video on The Ledger website where the there's a we have the series called enter. Enter the dungeon. Tion j0n. The dungeon these are these are these are Ledger as look. I'm just a mouthpiece man. Let's be clear. Ledger is is full of the best Security Experts in the world.
Old and, you know, I'm doing my job and they do theirs, which is, you know, they break shit. There's no company in the world that that, you know, presents two or three papers at blackhat every year except for except for Ledger. And so there's a series on YouTube that we did called enter the dungeon and you can watch them, you know, break devices in a variety of ways, but you know, the reality is some people have prioritized open source over security and we love open source. Ledger live is a
Source. Everything we can as open source, we don't make the secure elements so we can't open source them. But you know, these are the these are the chips that are in your credit card and have been like battle tested for four years and years and years whereas, you know, you're using a chip, that's not a secure element. There's ways to, you know, to freak that chip out and get it to give up, you know information or pass phrases. Etc. And that's you know, and this is this is where like, you know, which what you're using their really
You know, really matters like that, you know, the chip is inside really
matters, hence. We actually been any zero-day exploits on Ledger, you
know, I wouldn't want to say no because I think that there have been some, I don't want to, you know, really. It's a question for Charles, give me because he'd answer it. My recollection is, and again, I've only been with the company for 18 months there since I've been at the company. No, but I my recollection is that, you know, there have been some, you know, some bounties claimed.
Or four things in the past, and there have been things that have been improved, right? Such as you you, you know, when you, when you put your pass code, and you'll notice that it randomizes the number every
time. Yes, I noticed that,
you know, and that's so that no one can look over your shoulder and count the number of presses. And and, you know, sort of derive what your passphrase is by just kind of listening to you click, you know, those sort of things, right, but that's a great question. Actually, for for Charles game a, who's the CTO.
No, I shouldn't answer questions that he's, you know, that he's much more expert
at. Yeah. Well the good news is there are gaps, right? So it's not like someone could come in and even if there was an exploit come in and, you know, sit next to you and and exploit it unless you had presumably when you plug it in and check for an update, make sure there's a patch, you know,
correct? Yeah, and you, yeah, your and your keys are always offline. So, you know, and that's also why I like, if something was found, you know, an exploit couldn't happen at scale, right? Because, you know, neither of our Ledger's are online right now, wait.
Be exploited. Right? Exactly, you know, so that's it's just yeah, and then this is I love it. I mean, it's been really. I'm this whole process has been so great for me, you know, all the way back to 2009 because I had, you know again, well skateboarder, I'd never really thought about what is money actually write that this whole process of understanding that? And also, yeah, I studied computer science, but I didn't I didn't study cryptography and security. And, you know, I think that these things are are a part of our lives in a different way, you know, I was listening to
Scott Galloway is show and he had. I wish I remembered the guys title, but somebody from the business school at Harvard and Scott asked him, you know, about some advice for students. And the guy said study cryptography, and I was like, oh my God, this guy's a closet bull. This guy realizes that digital assets are a huge part of the future of humanity and he's encouraging people to kind of get their head around the way this stuff works because it's going to be an increasingly important part of your life. And
Yeah, I think that that is, you know, kind of where we are and understanding the stuff is is super, super, super important to keeping yourself safe. This is why I actually, I mean, I've mentioned it, this will be the third time. I apologize. But that book that Nicole pearlroth wrote. This Is How They tell me the world ends. I'm downloading. Yes, you know, when once you realize that, you know, that you don't ever think like, hey, what if the place that I'm getting my clean water from runs on Windows, 95? Like, there's a good reason that thought never comes into.
Your head. But if it did you might scare the shit out of you, right? And, and when you just sort of like, multiply that across, all the places that were reliant on technology in our lives. You realize that yeah, means this, you know, security is incredibly important. We've kind of given over in this web to World. We've kind of given away sovereignty, you know, we don't own CDs or DVDs, which maybe is fine, but we also don't own our identity and you know, and I think
It will get a lot of that back. But with that is going to come the responsibility of keeping it safe. So to your question, I think we're going to have a lot of, you know, custody in those, custodians are going to be holding for us digital assets. That could be lost. And then I think we're also going to have a lot of things in our lives that are self custody. And I think that's going to bring a lot of freedom to a lot of people because it will it will give, you know, liquid assets and assets. That could be liquid internationally to a lot of
I mean, you and I know that just a really simple story of, you know, an artist in some far-flung corner of the world who, you know, might have a very difficult time, reaching an audience given where they live, but you know, when they're participating in this always liquid, always on 24/7 digital asset Market, they actually have the same access to, you know, sustenance that an artist in New York or Paris does in. And that is that's going to be
Incredible and it's going to be powered by, you know, by blockchains not a Bank located in the United States period. So that's I think it's, I think it's as big as the internet or bigger, right? Revolution of information, revolution of value. So, I think it's you're going to have kind of a lot of consumer choice to come back to my initial
answer. Yeah. When you think about your so at the perfect position and and probably you mentioned earlier about being pitched to
Again ft projects today alone. You probably see a lot of what's going on out there. So to two questions before we wrap things up one, I'd love to know what are the common mistakes? Security-wise that internally, it Ledger, you all just kind of like, you know, hand to forehead in there. Like how are people still doing this and any tips on things that people can do to or avoid doing that would really help them secure their
And then the last question would just be what's the cool stuff that you're seeing out there today? Yeah. So
on the security side, I think there's two sides of it. One is on the consumer side and the other is on the Enterprise side. And you know, the consumer side, the good news is that there's really good traction, especially in communities, right? When you look at communities, that have a lot of value in them, you know, like board Apes, like Punk's, like proof. You see a really high percentage of of Ledger usage, that makes perfect sense. Because you've got a community.
Unity, first of all, people do get wrecked and everyone when someone in your community gets wrecked, you pay attention you like. Oh man, that could have been me, right? And so, you know, then people invest in like, both education and and getting a ledger. So, you know, but then when you go down, let's say, you go down to the BFF Community where it's a lot of people who are like, hey, I'm new here, right, you know, the penetration of Ledger goes way down and that's, you know, so we're always trying to do education in those communities and that education is around if the
On your wallet, is worth more than $80, which is what a nano S Plus costs and you should invest in an OS +. That's pretty pretty simple married and, and you move your assets to to a ledger and you, you do you eliminate a lot of risk, you just by doing that. But then there's a lot of other things that you need to pay attention to. Where are you putting the seed phrase and and you know, how hard have you thought about that? You know. Are you sure that you can recover? Do you want to have a backup device? Yeah, and where people put it.
Do you do sir?
Veins like Anonymous survey, see the people put on another mattress. So they like, you know, at their house cleaners, discovering it like what are some of the stories weirdest? Ions bad
place. It's a great question. I mean, I have we hear the horror stories as you can imagine, you know, talking I'm talking about companies that have, you know, millions of dollars on a ledger and you know, the seed phrases with the CEO who has it is one password and then somebody hacks has one password and the company loses, all their money and the company is fire sold, you know, or you know, and then to come to the Enterprise side, you know, like company.
The seed phrases with the IT guy, and the IT guy disappears and so does the money, you know, I mean, so I think we sell a lot of the of the crypto steel, like products. So, crypto steel, crypto tag billfold or, which are fireproof ways to store them, and then you need to store them some place that no one can get to them, right? So sometimes you split them into into two or into three and put them in multiple locations. So if one place is discovered, you know, the others are not or if you can if you have two of three then you can then you can recover
You know, people definitely use safe deposit boxes, which, you know, I there's an irony to, you know, putting your seat phrase in a bank yesterday total but still, you know, it's a, you know, it is a, it is a, you know, it's great to not have that seed phrase in your apartment, you know, or your home, you know, so I know. And that's why we don't really make a recommendation because very personal based on who you are and and you know, who knows about it, you know, does your wife know about it or not? And that's a very personal decision.
But it's also why I think having a
backup and recovery service for seed phrases is, you know, is super valuable if if you can pull it off securely. So let's say that let's say that we have some ideas on that, you know, and I think that the other big thing that people need to understand is the danger of interacting even with a ledger and blind signing and not knowing what it is you're doing. I mean these psychological attacks are Insidious, you know, you've got the simple ones which is just like I'm going to D.
You telling they're telling you there's a magic Moon Birds drop, Kevin just woke up in the middle of night and decided that Moon Birds has a has a mint that's available right now in, but it's only available right now, you know, and then you're like, oh my god, I've won it and then you realize, fuck, you know, you've got had. So that that stuff is very, very, very real and where there's value people are going to come after and some of them are really sophisticated. I mean, you know, you've read the ones where it's like, oh, you think you're hiring this new designer for, you know, for proof and, you know, six weeks later, you find out that
You know, he's it's him and you know for other people who have been, you know, like working you, right? So this stuff is is very hard to, you know, there's not technology really that can you know, that can save you from things which are purely psychological but but, you know, people need to be aware that it's out there. And I think we need more protections. Like what we're doing with what 3 check that will that will mitigate those. I think the thing I find most shocking is on the
Enterprise side. Because there are so many people now that are companies who have web three value and they're still storing it in a, in a kind of a solution that was designed for an individual, right? You know, it's remember having, you know, talking with my friend who's the chief digital officer at caring and you know, this is early last year and saying like wow carrying is going to have a lot of digital assets like, okay. So who's going to have that seat phrase? Your
Trustworthy it guy like I don't think so man. Right. And this is where we spent the last year. Making Ledger Enterprise work for customers like that. I like through my body across the tracks at lvmh last year because there were brands that had digital assets that were only protected by metal mask Plus Chrome the ice, and the, IT guy had the recovery phrase, right? And I'm like guys, I'm sorry. I'm sitting right here. Are you can't do this to me, right? You know, this is and it was on us to like we needed to make Ledger and
Surprise work for Brands like this. It's been working for, you know, three years for banks and governments, but, you know, it what's the model that works, you know, for a, for a brand, or a small brand or someone like you Kevin. And so we've had to had to make that happen. But if you know, in any case you need three things, you need to own your own contracts, right? You can't those can't sit somewhere else, right? You have Hardware security. I can't only be protected by your phone and can only be protected by your browser and you have to have governance because you know,
If you can't have this quadriga thing, you know where you know, I hate to say it. But what if the person that holds us, he prays gets hit by a bus or, you know, there wherever they're keeping that seat phrase gets hacked. And you know, generally if you're a business, I mean we have we have banks that have, you know, a thousand Ledger Blues in them, or people have different rights because these people can spend up to 50 Grand, but over that it needs to have three signatures and over another number. It needs three of five signatures on. One of them has to be the CFO, you know.
Like you need that level of governance when you're dealing with with digital assets as a as a business, right? So that's what that's what Ledger Enterprise about. And it's interesting because I mean almost no one has that like name, you know one nft project which has you know, that level you know, that has the kind of Banker government level of security. Now, I think two years from now, it'll be everybody. But today, you know, it's just not it's just not really anywhere. So those are those are the big ones.
I need to have you back on to do a proper.
Round table and go deep on the all the projects in cool stuff. You're saying, as well.
I you would, I would love to, I mean, I love it so much because last week was super inspiring. I think you know, in the one thing I'll say before we close to answer your second question is I just I think the quantum guys have the quantum dot art. I think they have the Rhythm down, right? Yeah, if you look at what they're doing, you know it they've got just, they've got the right balance of supply and demand where, you know, you can kind of bet that, you know, things meant out quickly. They
Hold their value. And it's also really fun and really qualitative. So that's one of my favorite things. I'm watching. What Scott's doing was scab shop every day. Because that's right in the zone for
me. Yeah. Say my own like, for scab shot passes.
Yeah, Ben and and I, you know, I love the people. I love the art and I love that it changes, you know, these artists who are fine artists that were paid by the hour into, you know, into purely fine art, artists, whose art is going to outlive Humanity because on the blockchain, I think that's super exciting. So cool.
There's so much fun stuff out there, and, you know, I love it. My record buying has gone down in the past year, and I'm not proud of that, but it's, because my attention has been put
here. Yeah, awesome million. Thank you so much for being on the show. Let's get you back on and do a proper like deep dive into a bunch of different projects. I know you mentioned. Enjoying Derek's content. We're going to do a round table soon. We the three of us should jump on and now the metal clangs
deputies w. A huge honor that dudes brain is want to just celebrating life and some but both you guys. So, thank you. So
Much thank you for what you're doing to really really truly a pleasure. And yeah.
Oh thank you for helping make us more secure. I'm excited. You know, we've got 1,000 Ledger's that we're going to order for the proof Collective. You know, we really want to make sure that we're doing a going above and beyond and continue to educate, you know, not just proved members but everyone because this is it's going to be you know, a couple years till we stand down on a bunch of these rough edges. And I know that ledger is leading the way here. So I'm excited for that. Like all the stuff that you mention. I'm like, why do we not have?
Right now. Like, you know, it's like I just can't wait, but it's refreshing and exciting to know that you all are building this because it's you said, all the things I wanted you to say. I didn't know what you were going to say, but it's that those are all the pain points where I was like, yes. Yes. Yes. We need that. We need that. We needed that yesterday. You know,
totally, I know we feel the same way and we're working on it man. And as hard as we can, please, you know, you know, come over and visit us to I'd love to take you out for
a spot. Guess I'll jump on your show as well. It's
come on our show and then come to Paris.
I'll take you on tour. The
dungeon fantastic. All right. Well, thanks again, of course, man.
All right.
That is it for this episode. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you would like to help us out head on over to pre-cut XYZ and click on the reviews button at the very top and leave us a five star review. Thanks so much. Take care.
