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Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss show. My guest today is Mark Zuckerberg, Mark is the founder chairman and CEO of meta, which he originally founded. As Facebook in 2004. Mark is responsible for setting the overall direction and product strategy for the company. In October of 2021, Facebook rebranded to meta to reflect all of its products and services across its family of apps and to focus on developing social experiences for the metaverse on term. You've, No Doubt
Heard in the last few weeks and months. Moving beyond 2D screens toward immersive experiences, like augmented and virtual reality to help build the next evolution in Social technology. He is also the co-founder and co-ceo of the Chan Zuckerberg initiative. With his wife Priscilla, which is leveraging technology to help solve. Some of the world's toughest challenges, including supporting the science and technology, that will make it possible to cure prevent or manage all diseases. By the end of the 21st century mark studied computer science at Harvard University before
I'm moving to Palo Alto California, beautiful place in 2004. You can find them on Facebook, facebook.com slash duck. And on Instagram instagram.com, / is duck Zu. C k--, and metal. You can find of course, at meta M ETA.com just a few more comments before we dive in and that is related to questions and subjects. I wanted to cover new ground with Market did not want to rehash questions and topics that have been covered a lot in the media.
Either by the New York Times or anyone else for that matter. And one of those topics is Ukraine because meta has spoken and published publicly about their ongoing efforts regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine. So you can read about them. Also in the show notes to Mel blog /, podcast, and Marcus commented on these things already. If you want to learn about what I'm doing on the front, you can go to Tim top log / Ukraine, but we had limited time in this conversation and I wanted to cover subjects. That would have some
Staying power, some relevance moving forward, 6 months, 12 months, maybe even several years when people are listening to this podcast in the future. So thank you very much for listening and I hope you enjoy this very wide-ranging conversation with none other than Mark Zuckerberg.
Mark, nice to see you. Welcome to the show. Thanks for making the
time. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. I'm looking forward to this.
You've had a very, very busy week and I imagine most weeks are very busy, perhaps this week, busier than some. But before we get to, perhaps current day, I wanted to flashbacks a little bit in the course of doing research for this conversation. I chanced upon fencing. Now, fencing, I had seen in connection with your name, but I had no idea that you had been as competitive as you had been. And I was hoping you could
Describe a little bit, your involvement with fencing. And for people who don't know what makes fencing, interest are all made it interesting to you, and I have follow-up questions, but I have taken to fencing instructional lessons is maybe 10 years ago and was inspired to do so because of the writing of Bruce Lee of all things, but could you just describe your background with fencing and how you ended up competing? This is
probably one of the more interesting places to start an interview that I've ever
done.
I sensed competitively when I was in high school. It's not something I did since I was like a little kid or something like that, but I've always loved Sports and, you know, just being active. I like problems that you can solve intellectually, but I also just think managing your energy and kind of being out there and being physical. It's just always been a really important part of my life and I was looking for a sport that would do this in the winter in high school. I did a bunch of running right-sided cross-country and I did tennis as well. So start doing fencing and
I Didn't Do It competitively for a super long period of time. But the thing I loved about it is it's obviously very physical and cardio taxing just being kind of on your feet and kind of bouncing around, but those are very very mental and I do I have these memories when I was in my high school chemistry classes of writing out, sequences of moves that I wanted to try when I was like doing bounce later after school that day and different things that you can do to win in multiple ways.
Ugly, try to catch people off guard and one position. It's like, okay? If they do power you, then you're still in a better position. You can get them on on the left or something or or if they don't then you get the touch. So I found it to be a very, very intellectual but a good a good sport. I was never that good at it. You know, I did a competitively went to some State competitions and stuff like that, but I don't think it would have been good enough to do it at college for example, but it's mostly it's a fun thing to
do. So the closest experience that I have is with kendo, i,
I lived in Japan for a period of time and I did some Kendo and I think it's shares quite a bit in common with fencing. Of course, the techniques are quite different, the slashing movements predominate in Kendo. Although you are allowed to stab to the throat. If your past has been age, which is all separate matter, but the idea of, as they might say in Brazilian jiu-jitsu this sort of position before submission is an interesting one, right? So, even if your first attempt fails, you're in a superior position to execute on your next move, and it's always struck me.
That as much as people think of you as someone who studies or even predicts or looks at trend lines into the future, seems like you have quite a background in studying the past and that's where I wanted to go next, which was Classics. It seems like you've spent quite a bit of time studying Classics. And I was wondering if there are any books or any figures whose stick out to you, from that chapter in your life. Maybe that chapter continues to this day.
Day, but if you could speak to that, I figured we'll use that as a segue to other
things. I loved Classics. I picked it up in high school as well. I started studying Latin because I was so bad at speaking, French and Spanish. So I'm very interested in languages overall. But like the whole kind of thinking on your feet and understanding, or like really quickly, just I'm process things more methodically. So so Latin was more my style because you don't have to speak it so you can just read it at whatever, whatever kind of pacemaker.
And then from there, I got a degree can actually thought that when I went to college my plan at the time, was to be a Classics. Major, it turned out, I took no Classics courses at Harvard. I'd end up doing psychology and computer science were the two areas that that I focused on, but I just loved the discipline of classic so much in the history. I've been philosophically is sort of the underpinning of kind of Western thought. I think it's super interesting. But I've also just been very interested in basically people who shape the way we live, right? So the historical figures.
Who I like learning about it. So there's a set of people like inventors, you know, people who just create things and change the world through that. But I'm also very interested in historical figures who kind of try to invent her usher in new ways for people to live. So I always thought you know, Augustus was a very interesting historical figure and I mean one of the things I mean, he's controversial for a lot of reasons and you can debate all the good and bad, but one of the things
I thought was just really always stuck with me about what he did was when he basically stop the wars, you know, at the time in history. There wasn't really a concept of Perpetual peace be concept of peace that they had at the time was like this is just the temporary period during which your enemies are too weak to fight you but they're going to come back. And he basically like ushered in this notion of actually trying to convert a lot of the military towards other trades.
Because he's like, all right. No, we're trying to like be more peaceful. We want to build a more positive, some economy. Let's kind of do this in a way where we can get people doing, more productive, things and I always thought that was just a really interesting historical thing. And in some ways has parallels today to some of the work that I think is going on in the tech industry around the whole Creator economy. If you just think about how many people today basically do jobs that they have to that, they might not actually like that much of their supporting themselves compared to where I think and
That the world is going, which is just a much more robust, creative economy. We're way more. People can do things that are kind of intellectually or physically interesting to them. And in doing so build up communities around that and have enough monetization economy around that to kind of support that, that to me, is sort of like, the modern version of kind of, how do you upgrade the way that people live and work and to kind of fulfill human potential? So I think there are a lot of interesting lessons from the past. I think you can also read into it too much, but I really enjoy it.
When I, when I studied it
where I'm going here, across a broad spectrum is trying to and we are going to talk about the Creator economy and the potential of that and also questions around it. And right now, what I'm hoping to learn more about her, some of the influences and influences can take many forms, one would be books. And I want to ask this is from a profile in the New Yorker from 2010. And I remember this because I noticed it before I read it in the New Yorker at the time, which was
For period of time. I think the only book that was on your profile on Facebook was Ender's Game. It's a great book. It is a great book. Is one of my favorites. I was hoping you could explain why Ender's Game and then if there are any other books that you have in particular that come to mind reread or say gifted to other people what those might be, but if we could start with Ender's Game since it is also a personal favorite of mine. I'd love to know why Ender's Game. I actually
don't think
It has any unique significance. I so I'm surprised to hear that was the only thing on my profile but I do love. It's a great book and I think that kind of Science Fiction. Not just exploring your certain Technologies, but it's also very compelling story and has good moral lessons. There are parts of the technology and things in it. Like the ansible for faster-than-light communication across the Galaxy that we had a project at our company that we had code name that we're all focused on communication.
I can't really speak to. I'm not actually sure why it was the only thing on my profile
and I'll just deal the book. Not the only thing
I don't I don't I don't think it has some kind of unique significance in my life. But I love science fiction and I have spent a lot of time reading that I think it's often a good way to kind of understand what's possible, you know, in recent years, you know, the last decade is I've gotten more into virtual and augmented reality and actually starting to build some of these things. More certainly spent a lot of time reading this
And fiction and going back and revisiting a bunch of books around that. And it's just it's really fascinating to me to see kind of what people predict and what the sociological phenomena that people predict around the stuff as well.
Are there any books in particular writers in particular? I means one who comes to mind for me would be Ted Chiang, who's written a number of short story collections like exhalation, which seem to include a lot of potentials kind of right around the corner right near near future speculative fiction. Any books come to mind that you've done just in the course of
Of of reading in the last few years, weather related to VRA are
otherwise, there are some that are just classic surround this anything at this point. Anyone who's interested in this space? Would read Ready, Player one, and Snow Crash. I think Rainbows End is one that is maybe not as commonly cited, but I think is maybe the augmented reality sort of equivalent of some of the this seminal works that talk about virtual reality. One of the things that I think is pretty interesting about all of these is that they sort of pause it that
World is in some sort of dystopian State and that I think is very different from kind of how I think about this. I think that there are all these reasons why it is very valuable for people to be able to be present in another place. No matter what their situation is. I'm and I kind of laugh about the sometimes, when I like my family has a, we love going down to Kawaii and it's beautiful there and we'll be out there and I love surfing. I love doing a lot of stuff. But I also love being in VR when I'm going there too. So it's a
Obviously, that's not, you know, that's not some kind of dystopian thing. But I think that just if you look at like equalizing opportunity across the world, you don't have to be in some kind of dystopian situation to want to be present with another person who you care about or an opportunity. That's better in another place. So that to me always struck me as a very interesting theme of that science fiction, but in terms of like exploring sociologically and technologically, what's going to happen, I've always found it. Pretty fascinating.
Let's talk about long-term.
Planning and long-term bets for a second. I find you particularly interesting in this respect, because you're a Founder CEO with sort of a lot of Founders driven control your innocence. You'll want to the last of a generation and you can make long-term bets. And I know when we were chatting, I guess last week, a bit. You mentioned having a 50. Correct me if I'm wrong, but like a 15-year roadmap for metaverse, right? And what I'd love to ask you is how you manage say the short.
ERM or the intermediate term within the company with employees, right? Because if you look at say Instagram WhatsApp, the bets paid off, but at the time there's a lot of scrutiny, you know, the media has sort of had a field day and by and large were wrong, but I'm wondering since those types of bets are not necessarily obvious in the moment to everyone involved. How do you think about managing internally when you are making these long-term bets? It's
hard and I don't think
There's just one way to do it. People are psychologically much more interested in capable of focusing on a long-term outcome when they feel secure in the near term, so when there's a lot of near-term thrash or prospects, don't look good or the market is down overall, even if that's not specific to your company, even if so kind of broader thing. I think that that that definitely strains people's time Horizons,
But good leadership as you try to get people excited about where you're going, you obviously, you can't just ignore these short-term. There's a lot of stuff that we need to get down there. And at this point, you know, it's a pretty big company. Simon is one of our board members says, we need to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time, which is probably a simplification. But one of the things that I've sort of personally,
Learned over the last 18 years of running. The company is like I remember when I was getting started.
Feeling like you.
Weren't understood kind of feels bad. I think that there's there's a normal human impulse which is you want to be understood. I think that's what that's partially. Why people want to express themselves. And why communication is so important people at some level, have this intrinsic desire to be kind of understood and along and feel like they're have along with the people around them and obviously being in a state where you your kind of something that you're trying to do, is kind of fundamentally misunderstood, or that people don't believe in. It can be tough, but
After going through a bunch of these Cycles, I actually feel like I've trained myself to kind of see it the opposite way, which is if I'm doing something that feels too. Well, understood for too long. Then I feel like I'm just being complacent. So after having gone through a bunch of these different Cycles, whether it's, you know, a lot of things that are just not controversial today, but at the time, people thought were crazy taking the the service initially from being a college website to not buying Instagram or Whatsapp, which were you billions of dollars for the acquisitions?
Like at the time people were what, you know, I remember I think it was it was Jon Stewart or Colbert, but they did a segment that was making fun of the Instagram acquisition. That was like, what it's like you bought Instagram for a billion dollars of money. Are you kidding? So I think some of these things it's like you're just you kind of go through a bunch of these and you have the conviction to kind of push back on the on the world a little bit and say, okay, now we're going to get through this and come out in 18 months, 24 months with something.
That we believe in. And and after that happens a few times, you kind of understand that could happen. Most people still will get more of these bets wrong than, right. So it's not like, you know, I think it's obviously very important to not get too overconfident with this, but at this point, I kind of feel like, if people fully feel like, they understand what we are as a company, and what we're doing, then I'm not pushing it hard enough. And that actually. Now I'm at the point where like that feels bad to me. So I kind of like want to push us into the Zone, which is, okay. Let's kind of constantly be doing.
Something that can be doubted. Because if we're not, then what are we doing? We have this huge opportunity to do, exciting things and helped invent things and create things for the world. And if it's obvious to everyone that we're kind of gonna be able to do each of the things that were working on then. I don't feel like we're kind of making the most of what we need to do. So, I'm not sure that that the answers that the original question around internally. How do you get people through it? But I actually think a lot of this, how do you get an organization of 100,000 people through? Something is about managing your own.
Psychology and about managing your team psychology for sure, you know, one of the things that I've always found is, you can pretty much. I think get an organization through in a team through almost any challenge as long as you can maintain. Good, cohesion. So, it's the external stuff that that doesn't bother me that much. I mean, it's, you know, people can criticize us. I mean, I, you know, if they're people, I respect. I care a lot about that and want to make sure we do better, but it doesn't make me not sleep at night where stock price goes down. That doesn't make me not sleep at night when there's new.
That doesn't make me not sleep at night if there's an issue on my team and there isn't good, cohesion. Then I'm not sleeping. Well until I resolved that it goes back to you know, the very first thing we're talking about with fencing its intellectual and you're managing your energy, but I think like in order to get through these things and build big, long-term things. You kind of just need to, I think you need to take care of yourself and you need to take care of your core team and basically in doing so you can lead a pretty large organization through some pretty difficult times.
Has to do some pretty awesome stuff, but I think that it's intellectuals energy and it's about kind of training yourself to be
uncomfortable. So, let's talk about the, the training yourself, to be uncomfortable, or to become more comfortable with discomfort. So, anything come to mind just in terms of managing your
psychology for my own psychology. The way that I try to manage this stuff is I wake up in the morning and you get like whatever emails you have like stuff that's going on in the world. Right? So it's world events. It's team events. Whatever Trends we're seeing across our products.
And often in there, there's a fair amount of bad news and like new things that I need to absorb. And one of the things I found that just for kind of managing myself is that if I try to just go straight into the day, almost every morning when I wake up at like read through my emails and get the news. It's almost like getting punched with sort of like a ton of new context and it's like, okay I need to like internalized this. So I found that doing you just something physical and
And something that's like meditative to take my mind off of it for like an hour. So then I can reset and go do work is really important. So that's why, you know, things like foiling or surfing have been really important to me because when you're out there in the water, it's like pretty hard to focus on anything else. When you're on the board, you're focused on making sure you stay on the board and don't mess something up. When you're not you're in especially if you're if you're kind of towing or something like that. There's not a whole lot of downtime. So I found that for my own performance is
Italy better when I have something like that that's like meditative and physical. And and allows me to kind of output some energy and that I can come back in and it's almost like all have subconsciously settled all the news that have happened in the world now, it's like, okay. Now let's go deal with it. Now, obviously, if there's something that's really an emergency, not getting you, no go do a sport or something. I'll go deal with it. And obviously part of life is you don't always get to control your schedule and that's kind of how that goes. And when I compare kind of how I do on the days,
I kind of get to have some time to soak that in, or to kind of have an outlet versus just like jumping, right in, and I find them off in like, stewing and bad news or something, and then I just I'm not as productive. So that's sort of my own personal way that I try to manage situations like this, but obviously a key part of this is like having an awesome team and it's not it's not being primarily about me at this point. No, it's a big company and we have awesome people who are who are running all these different groups. So I get that the what I'm
What I'm saying, kind of how I've worked out the system for myself, isn't necessarily something that would work for a lot of other
people. I think the meditative palate cleanser makes sense, though, especially if you're talking about things, like foiling, where the consequence of a lapse of attention, on what you're doing as immediate penalties. So it's, you know, it's regulating and it's
maybe I'm not strong-willed enough or calm enough to just do straight up meditation. It's like, I actually need to put myself in a situation where it's
Difficult to not focus on that thing. Part of this too. And I do think managing energy is an is an interesting thing. I mean, some of the, the folks I work with the company, they say this lovingly, but I think that they sometimes refer to my attention, is the eye of Sauron in that. Basically, like you have this, unending amount of energy to go work on something. And if you point that at any given team, you will just burn them, but at the same time, just kind of managing that so that way I can like manage my own energy and
Diffuse it well enough so that way it's like, okay. I have the thing that I'm focused on that that day and I it's really important to me that I can as often as possible manage my schedule so I can actually focus on the things that I'm naturally thinking about. I just think the engagement that you get of having like an immediate feedback loop around thinking about something, then going to getting to go talk to the people working on. This is so much better than like going in scheduling a meeting that you'll have three weeks later when I mean maybe the topic will still be important, but it's not like what's going on at that time. So getting that balance, right? I think.
Is an important thing for sustainability for the organization
as well. Yeah, for sure. We may come back to energy management. We're going to touch a lot of subjects. We're going to bounce from the professional to the personal and everything in between. Let's touch on some things that are kind of top of mind or might be top of mind right now because I certainly have a lot of questions related to say the metaverse and a longer-term roadmap. And we chatted briefly prior to this about engineering versus science problems. So I think I'd love to
Pack that at some point, but let me ask a really specific question first and thats related to kinesthetic feedback and engagement. Right? So one thing that struck me about ready, player one, especially in the in the Cinematic version. So, the movie itself is that you have this incredible tactile environment where they're grabbing objects and interacting with objects feeling impact and so on. But then you see them cut to an external shot of someone in a say trailer where they wouldn't actually have the kind of feedback.
No, they have haptic suits in Ready, Player One. What do you see as go to the roadmap for that type of interactivity? I mean, does it? So the more I thought about this at the more I realized while surface-level stimulation may not be quite as immersive as people would hope for. Do we need to wait for some type of neural link. Type of computer brain interface, where actually stimulating the brain and not stimulating, but actually producing. So
art of the perception of kinesthetic engagement. How do you think about the future of that type of hardware and interaction?
I think there's a pretty long Arc there and it's also just pretty amazing how good of a sense of presence. You can, you can get even with certain things being pretty raw or out of place, right? The original devices that we had for virtual reality didn't even have hand presents, right? They just had a headset and it had this wire. So you kind of have this wire like
Around your neck because it had to go to a computer to power the thing. And it just--over like every year we basically like knock down one or two more barriers, right? So then we got quest which ad you got rid of the wire. You got it to that. Now, you could run virtual reality at one-fiftieth or one-hundredth of the compute power than what you have in a powerful desktop with a mobile chip on your on your headset. Then we got hands and the first set of hands. We're basically controllers, but now you're actually getting actuall hand tracking with like all
Ten fingers being able to be tracked in real-time, you know, in the next version that's coming out. We have sensors for your eyes. You can make realistic eye contact with someone and virtual reality and just thinking about to what extent you can do without some of the stuff. I mean think about all the zoom calls that you've been on over the last couple of years during covid. There's no real eye contact over video conference because your cameras are in simulated and even without that, you know, it still gets you pretty far. So in VR today, adding realistic eye contact each.
These things. It's like you can almost don't realize that you're missing them. And then when you have them you're like, whoa, that's like a really core part of the human experience. Is being able to make eye contact and hold eye contact with someone and like have that gaze. So, I think you just, you'll just add more things over time. More realistic, Expressions, more realistic avatars going from from kind of cartoon and stylistic and fun to photo realistic, and having that work. And then it's some point. I think you will get haptics. And the way that we kind of think about
Out haptic, love, for example, you know, screens have resolutions, right? You think about how many pixels are on the screen and you can actually think about haptics in your hand or anywhere else is basically also having a resolution. It's like how many pinpoints Can it can it make a cross. Your your hand and your hand is super sensitive. So it can actually your actual physical hand can have a very high amount of resolution for haptics, but we first start getting haptics. They're not going to have that high resolution, but still going to be amazing. And then every year they're going to they're going to get better and better and better. So I think
There's like quite a far roadmap on this. Which is partially what makes it super exciting, right? It's like you can have a realistically, a 15-year roadmap of like a what is it going to take to deliver? The kind of virtual reality presence that you want to be feel like you're physically there with another person at the same time. Augmented reality is a whole separate set of problems because now you're putting a hologram in the real world. So that's kind of a similar thing there. But being able to just work on a project that's like a 15-year project where there's a lot of
It is an engineering problem that you just need to go build. But a lot of it is also unknown, right? So, there's like, six or seven key unknowns that we just have multiple teams going out and trying to attack different different approaches at that. I just think it's a fascinating and fun way to make progress. And of course each year, you're intercepting and launching a new product. So I find this to be some of the most exciting work that I've ever gotten to be a part of. And I hope that for the rest of my career that I get to engage in more projects that are sort of longer term oriented with this mix of engineering.
Science and kind of Continuum Milestones. I think it's just a great way to make progress in the
world.
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I'd love to ask some more questions about metaphors and also the recent announcement related to Instagram and FTS just to touch on that. And then we're going to go back and fill in with some backstory and of some family questions. If you're open to that as I'm looking at the metaverse and have been observing fairly closely web, three developments and and of teas. And so on, in the last handful of years, I've been thinking quite a lot about your
Term planning. And then how you must think about sort of secondary effects, tertiary effects of these technological advances. And then I've also thought about think it was Andy Grove wed paired metrics. It would have such like key like a primary outcome metric that they were tracking, then they would look for kind of correlated impacts that they could track that were undesirable or should be addressed in advance and I'll give an example. So playing with oculus. I was very impressed with the technology because I used a very early morning.
A prototype but version years ago and the advances are really tremendous and I had an opportunity to chat with a friend of mine who unbeknownst to me at some point and I'm blanking on the exact game title, but he was something like s in the world or third in the world in mini golf. And that was I want to say year year and a half ago now, he's not even in the top 500. So there's clearly a large demand for this. The number of users is increasing rapidly.
And it's still early, right? It's really really, really now when I used the technology most recently and I had several ligaments, torn at my knee. So I had the experience of actually engaging with it sitting on a couch, which was fascinating because it is my first time not mapping out sort of the playing area and walking around. So I actually had the ability to test it as somebody who's sort of Mobility restricted, which was an amazing when I came out of the experience. It took a while for my eyes.
And brain to readjust to sort of the depth perception of objects around me. And I was chatting with his friend, John. He said, oh, yeah, you know, takes about two to three months and then you would just completely to that and I'm wondering what types of societal changes. May be physical adaptations. You're tracking as more and more people come online and begin to spend more and more time using say VR
the framework that you're talking about about having goals and metrics to track those goals and then counter
Is I think a really important one that we basically encode into all of our teams across the company. They're basically things that we're that we think are good. If can enable more connection or more different things across the company, but then there are kind of counter metrics in all these areas that where there were tracking to make sure that we don't exceed or don't increase negative effects for VR. Specifically, the biggest issue that the people report is still this feeling of motion sickness and the
You just have to kind of break it down, is your eye. Now, eyes are not, are not computers, but you can kind of think about it as a refresh rate. If something changes in the world, it will kind of take a 5 to 10 milliseconds for different people for you to sort of recognize that. And if you think about what's technically happening with VR, basically your you have to render this whole world continuously and if a person changes their head head position, or I position and it expects the image to be different, but then, by the time,
That their saccade is done, which is, you know, what it's called. Basically, you're kind of I refocusing if we haven't rendered correctly what you would kind of expect to be in that space. Then it creates this real feeling of discomfort over time. It's not like you miss one frame and you feel terrible for most people but it's over time. If you're not doing that efficiently, then that creates this feeling that that it creates a good. It's a real physical feeling of discomfort and this is partially, why the early versions of the video.
Headsets needed to be plugged into a computer because they needed to in order to be able to render a worlds that quickly, you needed a lot of computing power. So, it's this tremendous engineering challenge to now be able to do that. So much more efficiently that you're doing that on a mobile chip, which is one-fiftieth or one-hundredth is powerful as the desktop things, but get that to to work really well. I would say that that problem is not fully solved yet. It's getting better in every generation and people aren't computers. And not, everyone is the same and people have different.
For insensitivity to the stuff. So, you know, some people if it had said, is running at 60 frames per second, that won't bother them. But other people, I mean, at the other end of the spectrum, if it had said, is running at 120 frames per second, they may still perceive some glitchiness. And for most people, if you get to 72 or 90, or you're in pretty good shape, but there are like outliers, and people are not all the same. And, you know, at the end of the day, making this a technology that can be comfortable for. Basically. Everyone is going to be a really critical part of making this happen. So that's probably the biggest effect that
See, some of the other stuff like you mentioned. I think you just need some more kind of a longitudinal study. It's tough to do exactly understand all the effects of anything right up front. But you want to be mindful of that and be open to the fact that what you're doing could have issues and that you want to improve those issues and we try to research that stuff and basically try to continuously improve it. But that's the biggest thing that we're tracking right
now. And looking at societal changes. We could look at that for a second, then we'll come back to Instagram.
I've I've been very engaged in watching, say axi infinity as an example, and play to earn and different forms and it's been pretty mind-boggling to see. For instance, that there are so many players in the Philippines who are earning income that they can now impact large elections, right? As a constituent. And I'm wondering how you see this developing and this is certainly meta is going to be a primary player. They're going to be
Other players. But where if we get to the point where and please poke holes in this if you have a different view of things, but if we get to a point where there's almost a universal basic income, provided by the broad spectrum of jobs that you can have in the metaverse or online. What do you think? Some of the societal effects will be of that? It seems to be certainly growing faster than I ever could have imagined. Even though a lot of it is, maybe not right in my backyard, but it's certainly on a global level.
Seems to be expanding really quickly. I'd love to hear you speak to that in any
capacity. I don't interpret this as a universal basic income. I think what we're actually going to see is just the creation of a lot of different worlds that have different rules. So I think we'll kind of explore, and people will get to spend more time in Worlds, that there are very different rule, sets around, but everything. From from different physics, literally to like how you can move through the space, too.
Different modes of governance. One thing that I think is pretty important and that I hope that we can build into the Horizon platform that do. It's the social platform that we're building is the idea that anyone can create a space, but then spaces can be nested in other spaces. So you can basically create a building or store and then that can be inside a city that someone else creates. And then there's the question there of people. How do you govern that who gets a say in what policies? Who?
Enter it how to taxes work. Like, what's the basic business model of that space? What are the design codes around? Like, what are you allowed to build their all these different dimensions? And the physical world is? There's a lot of it but it is at the end of the day more finite than what we're going to have with the virtual world. So not everyone can kind of get to be the mayor of of their own virtual space and see how that evolves. But I think part of what we're going to get to see is you're going to have, they could be young people and Philippines or anywhere else around
The world experimenting with basically creating worlds that are not just a single space or an experience, but actually, like an environment or a polity in a way that other people can kind of be a part of. And I think that there will be sort of pretty interesting Innovation, you know, social and economic and governance Innovation as long as this gets designed in a good way. So I guess more than any specific policy idea. I think this could end up being a way to basically, explore, a lot of different ideas, and kind of see, which of these
Environments that evolved are going to be appealing to people in different ways. I think that's going to be wild to watch play out, and it's one of the things that I'm really looking
forward to. Are there any societal shifts or changes, not necessarily catalyzed by meta, but just that you see coming or plausibly coming that, you guys are trying to get ahead of or think about, just in terms of mitigating problems later. Is there, is there anything that comes to
mind?
I'm not sure if this is exactly what you're getting at. But one big shift that I think is happening. Is the rise of distributed work. I don't see that as a problem. I think it's good. There's just a lot of research that shows that people's opportunities social economic. And otherwise, they're generally pretty anchored to physically where they are. And I think, you know, sometimes people do this juxtaposition of this. Okay. There's like the digital world in the real world. That's not actually how I think about it. I think that there's a physical world and a digital world and the real world.
Actually, both and increasingly. I think people will use these Technologies to be able to be present in places that they physically can't be. And I think that's really powerful, right? It's like we're doing this podcast and we're not sitting next to each other physically, but it like feels like we're here and we're kind of having a live conversation and in the future, you know, maybe five years from now, if we were doing this pave, our glasses and hologram version of me will be on the couch next to you. And I think that that will be even better than what we're doing right now.
Now, so I think that through video chat, you can, you can have moments where you feel present, but I think through things like virtual and augmented reality, when you can like have an office and someone can be walking through it as a hologram, even though they're physically in a different place. I think that you'll just be able to much more naturally, unlock more of the opportunities both social and economic and I guess other others as well of being able to be around people and be present no matter where you actually are. So people will be free to to kind of live where they want.
Beware, their family physically is in a country that they grew up in, but they'll have all the opportunities that will be available around the world. So that I think is, is awesome. I think it's one of the most promising things about the future. And one of the things that I'm trying to do is sort of taking the conversation in a different direction. Is we actually, recently did this exercise at our company. We're thinking about, okay, we're coming up on almost 100,000 people soon in our company. And we kind of think about our values as a company is like our cultural operating system. How do we get work?
Done well and continue to build things that we need to build, and, you know, big part of the values. And I'd love to talk through them here. I mean, I haven't, this is actually the first podcaster or any public thing that I've done where I've discussed it in any of the values. I'm going to probably be pretty interesting to go through it. But one of them is, basically, we rolled out this value called live in the future, which is basically about the world is moving towards being distributed first, both, because we think that that's a good trend for how we work. And because we aspire to play a role in building,
All the technology to enable that through virtual reality. Augmented reality, metaverse, software, and infrastructure. And, like, avatars to express herself. We have the sink that we want people inside the company to eat your own dog food, but use the things that we're building internally as part of how we work because that's also a good source and a faster feedback loop to make those tools better for for everyone else around the world. But I mean, that's one of the six values that we just rolled out actually think might be interesting to go through the others too. But up to
you. Yeah, please please. Let's go through them and then I'll have
some questions about them. I'm
sure use some of them we capped but we're just changing how we execute them. So one thing that I think our company is pretty well known for is having the value of move fast. I've always basically believe that values are only useful if you can legitimately disagree with them. It's not like values. Like the honest are not that helpful because like, of course, you have to be honest, right? It's like I feel bad, even needing to write that down. If you have to write that down, then something kind of went wrong, but I don't know any good company that doesn't focus on honesty or demand that of there.
Please, so from my perspective, that's not like a useful. If you only get to write down like five or six Concepts to program into your culture, you want them to be things that good companies can reasonably do differently. And I think part of this is that good values. You need to be able to give something up in order to get them. So around move fast. We've always had this question. It's like you can't just tell people move fast. The question is like, what's the deal? Like? What are you what are you willing to give up and famously. We used to be move fast and break things and
The idea was that we tolerated, some amount of bugs in the software. In order to be encouraged people to move quickly because moving fast, I think is the key to learning. So if you want to increase the iteration cycle so you can get feedback from the people, you serve quickly and then incorporate that into the product. So we would literally get into situations where competitors of us would ship once a year or once every six months and we'd ship code every day. Of course, we're going to learn faster and we're going to build something better if you're shipping something every day. So the question is, what are you willing to give up?
So it used to be, we would tolerate some amount of defects in the product. It got to the point is that is the company grew. We were producing so many bugs that going back and fixing them was actually slowing us down more than we were speeding up. So I still thought, okay, we're moving fast. This is still like a really important thing. We've gotta change how we do it. So we kind of evolved to building a somewhat less sexy phrase, move fast, with stable infrastructure. And the basically the new BET was we're going to invest disproportionately and building up, good infrastructure and
Abstractions inside are companies. That way the average engineer who comes here is going to be much faster and more productive at getting things done than in other places. And at a scale of almost 100,000 people, what this really means. Now companies just add process over time and it's all good intention, right? It's like people are trying to make sure that we don't repeat mistakes that we've made. So you could stab this, like, checklist of things that everyone needs to do before they can ship anything. But most companies don't have a counter process to that to basically garbage.
And remove processes that are no longer that useful. What I'm really focused on now is just methodically going through and making sure all of the different processes that we built up as a company still serve us. Well, and in kind of empowering an effort to go do that, so just so now that's that's kind of what move fast is focused on three. Keep, going going into the next day. Let's keep going. Alright, so let's do it. So yeah. The second one is its focus on long-term impact. Where on the one hand you want a very fast cycle time to learn quickly, but on the other hand, you want to always keep people focused.
Gaston the prize and long-term. You one thing that's sort of unfortunate. We had a version of this before that, we just said, focus on impact, but a lot of people, especially as the company, grew interpreted that to mean do something that would make an impact in this six month cycle, right? So that way like when you have your performance review, your manager can point to something good that you did, and you get promoted. And it's like a god, that's like, definitely not what we're trying to do. Obviously, it's good. If you can have an impact in the near term, but you want to be able to kind of have a fast iteration speed to learn quickly, but
Always important to deliver something every six months you want to make sure that you're focusing and improving things for the long term. So we've actually made a bunch of changes to our culture. We change Performance Management and the Performance Cycle that people have from every six months. Now, it's just once a year to make it set the time frames that people have or longer. The next one, is the new one that we added. We call build awesome things. And the idea here is that I actually think that there's a pretty big difference between things that are valuable.
And things that are on spiring. An amazing and I kind of think that our company has been pretty good at building things. That a lot of people use and like, but for a combination of reasons, we just haven't focused quite as much until the last few years, especially as we've worked on a lot of this metaverse work in virtual reality and things like that. We haven't focused as much on things that are just odds firing and actually that there's this balance where you need to do both.
You can't do things that are just all inspiration and no substance. But I also think you can go too far. The other direction of just doing things that are useful. But I think a lot of what the world needs right now is inspiration. There are a lot of things in our lives and modern-day that work pretty well. But a lot of what we sort of lack is a positive vision for the future. A lot of the metaverse work to me has that level of inspiration and that's partially why I find it super exciting.
We talked about live in the future. That's mostly focused on being a great distributed, Workforce from the early days of covid. I sort of tried to put a flag in the ground that we were going to. Even after covid is done. I think by the end of this decade, hopefully have 50% or more of the company working distributed and working remotely and I still think that that will be awesome and just unlock opportunity to get access to more Talent the last to be direct and respect her colleagues, which I find as the company grows. One of my colleagues, Boz has
The saying that were in danger of nice thing ourselves to death, I think like as organizations grow. There's a sort of politeness that comes in where when you're just working with a small set of people and you're comfortable with them. You can actually be a lot more blunt and direct. And Cheryl always says that the amount of progress that we make is directly proportional to the number of hard conversations that were willing to have these companies grow. I think, like, it's tougher to give hard feedback. So trying to build that into the cultural operating system, which is like, we're just gonna really reward and
Jean being direct with each other. I think, is a really important thing and then the last one and I realize I've been talking for like, 10 minutes straight at this point, but I think this is the first time I've talked about the stuff publicly. So, yeah, I have a lot of goods to say. Well, we rebranded the company to meta we had this internal question of which we call our employees and someone actually email Douglas hofstadter, right the renowned author and thinker he wrote back home is like it should be meta mates and internal. I felt like if Douglas hofstadter thinks we should be meta mates than the new.
My to disagree with that. So our last value is Meta, Meta mates me, which is, it's sort of this adaptation from this old Naval saying, ship shipmate, self is the company grows. You want to make sure that the people stay focused on the long-term in the whole Enterprise and then their teams, but then it also take care of themselves. I think that's like sort of having that as a framework is pretty important. So I'm happy to go into more detail on any of these but I also want to be aware that I have. This is a quite a long answer and Mana.
Log as it is, so so wherever you want to go with
this. Yeah, let's pick up on it. And then I have a whole bunch of other things. I'd love to get into, but with respect to the values. So I've seen and looked very closely at the values of say Amazon, which, you know, the iterated that basis put together and others. And I think the degree to which values end up the, for lack of better, terms of operating system of people at a company varies, widely company to company. And I'd love to know how
Or if you are and you mentioned one example of the longer performance review, timeframes incentivizing these behaviors. Do you have a team that is sort of determining how to facilitate supporting these values, throughout the organization say that? They, they do have more saturation. So to
speak. Each of these, is basically coupled with an operational effort. We have a set of work that we do that.
It's, it's like move. Fast is the work. And it's basically, it's actually something that I'm pretty engaged in or I will just routinely go and sit down with largely engineering leaders, but also folks across the company and ask them. Okay. Well, what is slowing you down? Right? So in addition to the product reviews that will do, we will talk about what are the decisions we should be making, or, you know, what should we be investing in? I think it's useful to often just sit down with people and have a whole conversation. They're like, all right, what are the things that are that are basically causing you to move more slowly?
Leave. And then I view a bunch of my job as CEO. But then also, we have other people who just work on this to try, to go remove those obstacles. And obviously, we have to do it in a way that helps fit the other goals of the company. If people are saying, hey, it would make me be able to go faster. If I didn't have to care about this issue, you know, if that's an important issue, then obviously, we're not going to just say, no, right. It's like, let's figure out how we can care about that issue and do this as efficiently as possible. You can apply energy methodically over a long
read of time towards boiling or greasing the wheels in the, in the organization, in the direction that you want. And I think you can get it done over time. I remember when I was first learning about running an organization. I had this conversation with this guy, Dan rosensweig. Who's the CEO of Yahoo at the time. He's great. He's a great person and he told me this thing that will always stick with me, which is that every organization sucks, but you get to choose the ways in which your organization's.
And Evans is maybe the most negative possible way of putting it. But I think it's basically, if you want to move fast on certain Dimensions, you can but you only get a few things like that. If you want to optimize moving fast, we can do that. If we want to optimize being distributed first, we can do that, but maybe you get like five of these in and we are very focused on operationalizing them and then making sure that each of these values is backed up by like real work streams that we have or decisions that we make or processes that we make. And I mentioned changing the
It's management tool for live in the future. One of the big things that we're doing is in. I don't just want teams to be working distributed and working over video conference. I also want them to be using work rooms and using their VR headsets to work rooms. Is this product? It's the VR product that we built for collaboration and it's great. It's early still but it's fascinating. It's like you can you're in a meeting and you're sitting around a table. And even though the Fidelity isn't quite as photo-realistic on the avatars yet, is say the conversation that we're having now. The fact that
You can sit around a table and you can see people's gestures and you can have a side conversations if there's 10 people around the table, you can turn to the person next to them and ask them a question. There can be multiple conversations going on in the room, like, a normal room. But obviously, you can't do anything like that. Over video conference. There were a bunch of things like that, that actually make it in some ways feel more real already than video conferences, even though the avatars are still very stylized and cartoony. So, but we must give a rule that everyone who's in leadership.
Management should be basically, doing least like one standing meeting a week and work rooms. We want to get the feedback loop going on that. That team now is overwhelmed with feedback on how to get it to be even better. But I think the one of the outcomes of this is like I think workrooms is going to probably learn what they need to do to be a great product, a lot faster than a lot of others in this space. So that's kind of one way to operationalize these. But yeah, you got to operationalize them if you want them to be real. Otherwise, they're just words that you put on a website
somewhere.
I want to say that one thing that came up repeatedly in the course of doing homework for this conversation was how relentlessly product focused you are and I heard multiple anecdotes. I don't know if they're apocryphal, I can imagine them happening though. We're if you'd be walking down the street and some kid would be like Facebook sucks and you walk over me, like, oh, yeah. Well, tell me like, show me why it sucks, like show me and then you take like twenty five notes. In the next day team would get a long list of things from having actually sat down to someone for like a half hour.
Five minutes and having them walk you through their experience and I do think that true. So I'd love to ask a few more questions about just web 3 in general and then maybe back step for a second to ask you about a number of other facets in your life with Instagram and end of T is so I know that the web three is getting a lot of air time right now. And you know, I just came from a separate conference where it's like every conversation involved. Whip 3 and it strikes me that
Web to web three, decentralized centralized are going to co-exist. I mean, I'm no expert, but it seems that people want curation in many cases. They want trusted third parties. I don't want to always be my own bank. It's there's there. Good reasons why I use Banks instead of not taking on all those responsibilities myself and I'm wondering how it let's just say in the case of Instagram some challenges that perhaps you foresee, and I can imagine for instance if people can turn.
Hypothetically posts into n FTS, how that might affect. Let's just say, content, moderation and a safety precautions. And so on, if they actually have ownership of their posts, Right? Said the mean, this is a hypothetical that I'm just kind of throwing out there. But what type of challenges do you foresee coming up in the near term or in the long term? The
one that you just mentioned is I think a really fundamental one. I mean, it's some level you.
To make things censorship resistant, which has a bunch of equities. And there are certainly a lot of people who feel like their expression is restricted online more than they would like, but that also prevents if you really can't stop people from expressing things, then how are you going to fight against terrorism, or child, exploitation or things that people think are like really awful? Even the people who generally want more stuff to be allowed online. So really removing the ability for anyone to do.
Any kind of moderation at all in a broader platform, I think is problematic. I think in something like messaging, you know, we don't expect the people who run our messaging platforms and whether it's us or apple or whoever to go a kind of moderate a message that you sent in private, but it's sort of this distinction between the living room and the Town Square, right? If you're in a space, that's a broader space. Then I think that there is a little more need to make sure that things conform to the values that Society wants. Right. In reducing things that are just really
Everyone agrees or bad like terrorism and child exploitation and bullying and things like that, the taking a step back on your question, around web 3nf tease. I commit a lot of this from the perspective of thinking about the metaverse and how to make it more interoperable and a better environment for creators and do think that there's an interesting conversation to have around the Instagram and Facebook and what to do there, but I kind of I tend to think about that.
At as sort of how can you help bootstrap a creative economy in? These 2D social apps that will be much much bigger. Once you get to the this metaverse Vision over time. I think the reason why interoperability is so important is because imagine this case we get to a point where instead of spending three hours a day on video conference calls, you are now spending that same time in basically feeling like you're actually present with someone either because they're a hologram on your couch with augmented reality, or your virtual.
Already in something like work rooms, but a future version of it where you're like, actually you feel like you're physically there with them around a table. Okay. So now in a world where you're spending a few hours a day doing that, you're going to care about how you express yourself both the Avatar, right? Do you show up as a photo realistic version of yourself or your dragon or you kind of a stylized version? But a lot of this is going to be like, okay, how do we choose to express ourselves through the clothing and what we wear and what we put on? But now imagine that every app that you go to anything that you do to express yourself, you
So you get a sweatshirt. It's in an app. You can actually bring that to another app. That would just be massively stifling for the whole creative economy. Because now as a consumer, you're not going to want to buy a lot of sweatshirts because they're not going to be useful, because you can't bring them between places and because you're not going to want to buy that much. It's gonna be less useful for creators and fewer. People are going to be able to make a living. Basically designing. These kind of experiences or virtual architecture virtual clothes or different things like that. So the ability to be able to take how you want to express.
Soft and take your stuff with you between these different experiences. I think is just like a really key technical principles and standards thing to hopefully achieve with the metaverse. So I hope we can get there. And in order to push in that direction. I think it's helpful to start sooner in things, like Instagram and Facebook by supporting the communities that are doing things like NF to use that way. You get to minting, you can get to bring your stuff around between these different places, but I do think that the challenges that you're mentioning. We're all systems, I think.
End up being some combination of some element of decentralized and and centralized. I think actually a lot of new systems just create value by decentralizing and creating more opportunity in some area by creating a new tool that a lot of people use, but I think we'll need to get the balance right and that's something that I'm probably more optimistic about the web three stuff than most other people who are running these big companies. So I'm trying to push us to be more forward leaning on that or kind of fundamental belief is that if we create more use cases
We're
traitors can start to do this stuff. Then you'll get more experimentation. And you also just get a bigger creative economy over time, which I think is a huge part of the goal.
It's going to be exciting to watch. I have to say also that doing a bit of biographical research looking at your trajectory having known quite a bit already. It's incredible to me how much complexity you've learned to Grapple with, in the sense that now on a global stage, if there are conflicts or
Actors who want to engage or need to engage in a meta is almost always. It would seem going to be on the playing field in some capacity and it's just very impressive to me that you have from the very beginning reached this point where you're grappling with so many different layers of complexity. So I just wanted to say that for sure,
appreciate
it site. I can't even imagine, I can honestly can't even imagine I have enough trouble dealing with the complexity of a tiny team of fewer than 10.
People much less 100,000 and then the global stage. One thing I did want to ask about, I had no involvement on this podcast a long time ago. You put a lot of time and thought into the oversight board. What is your assessment of how that's going? I think it's early. One of
the things that I think has been really promising, is that Society needs a network of different institutions than it feels like are legitimate or have some legitimacy for making decisions.
In order to basically, accept the decisions and feel like their Affair. And I think one basic issue that we found ourselves in is that there's just no way that any single private company should be responsible for arbitrating. So many questions of social values, right between free expression, and safety or locking things. Down to ensure privacy versus making sure that the marketplace can be open and competitive, right? It's like these. These are real issues and there's equities on all sides and there's no
Single decision that any company can make on what any of them that I think is going to be universally accepted. So I think therefore you really want to not set up a situation where one company is kind of has to make a lot of these decisions by themselves. That's why I wanted to create this oversight board. I recognize that we're always going to have to be kind of the first line and we're going to be responsible for making the moderation decisions on our platform, but I kind of thought it was important that we shouldn't have the final say in the
Most important decisions and that there was a different body. The judicial analogy is something like a supreme court, although obviously, you know, they're, they're all these differences here. But something that people can appeal to and that we can also refer some of the most complicated cases to than that, they can make the final and binding, judgment on that. And one of the things that we've seen that I think has been interesting is that
It does seem like there's a little bit more acceptance when the oversight board weighs in on someone complicated than when we just do it ourselves. And I think part of that was, we put a lot of thought into making sure that the people who are on the oversight board, you know, our world-renowned in terms of a focus on human rights, really focused on free expression as well. Because the end of the day, these platforms are about giving people a voice diverse spending a large portion of the globe. Legitimacy isn't like a
Binary thing it's not like either it's completely rejected or it's completely accepted by everyone. We were Mindful and setting this up and I think the oversight board has also done a good job itself and kind of managing its independence. It is a completely independent organization from us and it has to be and its independence is super important for its continued legitimacy overall. I'd say I'm sort of optimistic about how it's going but I think building that sort of trust and legitimacy. Also takes time. It's not like a thing that you can just turn.
On a year and then all of a sudden people like, okay this thing exists, great. It's going to be making decisions it. Often overruling us or rebuking us on things. And people seeing that we respect its independence and its Authority and going and implementing that. That's I think how it had basically builds legitimacy over time, but I think as an institution I think it's really important that we have this kind of independent function, of course over time.
Having clear rules set in kind of democratically elected Congress, would be. I think the most useful thing and we're getting that more or less in different parts of the world. Obviously. It's a little harder in the in the United States because the first amendment is great. I'm obviously hugely supportive of the First Amendment, but I think that makes it harder for anyone in the United States to create or craft different regulations that weigh in on some of these trade-offs, but I do think over time, there will be a balance that is struck across all.
Some of this is all part of that, moving towards that
equilibrium.
You mentioned Cheryl earlier. I'd like to come back to Cheryl's. This is a question from a female friend of mine. I'll just read it, kind of as it says it's written, and I'd love to hear your thoughts. So marks Business Partnership with Cheryl is legendary. I can't off the top of my head to think of another partnership like this male female lasted 15 or so years, 15 plus still going. Why does it work? How does it work? Why does he think so very few? Others have such a partnership. I'll just add one more. What is shifted in his life and business as a result. So just
Here, any any thoughts on that? Because it does strike me also as a very unusual partnership that has been. Yeah, that has proven itself with, and tremendous longevity.
I think in a lot of ways that partnership is defined the growth of the company. And so, first of all, I would give a huge amount of credit for this working to Cheryl. I think she is an amazing person. And if you think about when she joined the company,
Yeah, I was like a kid. She was actually as old as I am. Now this 15 years ago and you know, I was in my early twenties and and didn't know anything about business or running a company or anything like this. And I just think the extraordinary amount of patients that she had and I'm in a way is like as a manager of an organization. It's almost like she raised me like a child and not just me. I think it's like a lot of the people we have on the team now, so I think she's exceptional in that.
One thing that's interesting about our company is that the business is sort of oddly divorced from the actual product. Most things. It's like okay you build a product and you sell the product. And in our case, I think one of the things that created enough space for someone who has as much energy and is a senior as share altered to join, is the fact that in the type of business that we have the consumer part of what we do is actually somewhat distinct from the advertising the business.
Part of what we do. So, there was enough space. I think in the company to have two people who basically, were like a primary principles for the company and I've debated this with a bunch of other peers and people who've created companies. And I know I had a great podcast with Daniel Echo, while ago towards the beginning of covid. And now I've had this discussion with him a bunch of times. I was like, well, he's like I just couldn't do that because there's like, literally for Spotify. It's like they build the business and the content and all that stuff is like one kind of package. Whereas I think we're sort of uniquely set.
Where we can, I can focus on that the consumer part of what we do, and she can focus on all the advertising and building the business, and that just has worked incredibly well over over a long period of time. And I think we'll, for a long time to come. So, just have a huge amount to learn from her. And I think she probably feels. I guess she feels the same way, but you'd have to ask her.
Yeah, maybe that'll be round two. Yes. I do think the, the, you know, the separation of church and state. I mean, that's probably an overstatement, but the, the clearly delineated halves.
Of the company, so to speak, lend themselves to that. It's a really good point. What are her superpowers enter? That may be a strange word to use but I think of say Warren Buffett referring to Charlie Munger and saying he is the best 60-second mind on the planet and they have very complementary. Skill sets slightly different views of the world. Although highly compatible values. What are Cheryl's? Super powers that come to mind if any, well, I think
she's a very good combination of
IQ and EQ people either. I think tend to be more manager, or more strategic. And I think she is very unique and being both. And I just think that's pretty rare. Obviously, if you get someone who's great at strategy or graded products and they're not a great manager. That's great. If you can have someone who is excellent. At one of those things, you hire them every day. I think it's just exceptionally rare to find people who have her kind of spike in both of those areas, but she actually uses a lot of dating analogy is I don't
But in terms of this one, it was talking to a friend who is single recently and we were talking about why she was single and I do just think like some people want to go through life with Partnerships more than others. I think that there are some people who like
They want a co-founder. They want a partner who they can run the thing with, and who can kind of have, they can have that experience with on a day-to-day basis. And then there are other people are just like, okay, I'll just have a team of, you know, five or six people around me and like all be the leader, the founder, but I don't need like a another person, and I just think that's different. Partnership, is always meant a lot to me, both in my personal life and in work. I like want people to be on the voyage. With me. This isn't like a solo.
Tori. That's like a lot of how I derive meaning and in life and again you'd have to ask her whether she may be. She's oriented in a similar way but I think to some degree, I think whether Partnerships work overtime, probably the number one factor in that is whether you want the partnership to
work. Yes, for sure. Or if out of the box in a sense you are predisposed to partner. Yeah, right, but let's actually use this as a as a way to move to question.
Just an observation and then a question that I'd love to ask and we can take in any direction you'd like to. So this is from a mutual friend who said one thing that most people don't know is that his mom is an MD but she stayed home and ever practiced medicine. She worked at the front desk of his dad's orthodontic business, which was under their home. And she was wondering, you know, how these family Dynamics, have shaped who you are today, and how you parent your own children. That's a big question that could get a lot of trash.
Since I recognize, but I'd love to hear you to speak to that in any way. That makes
sense. That story is partially true. My mom and dad are both doctors and my mom did practice for a bit but it is true that when Randy my older sister was born, I guess my mom was having a hard time finding childcare and people who she trusted enough to raise the kids. So she decided that she wanted to spend more time with us, but my dad's dental office was attached to the house. Like you said, she was just this like magical thing where my parents both worked super hard growing up and
A
great role models and that way. But also, like when I got home from school, I could just like threw my backpack on the couch and run downstairs and go. See them, and my dad was like, drilling someone's tooth. And like that person was probably not that happy that I came in and was like, Hey Dad, but plenty of stories there. But I mean, my parents are, there were great parents for us growing up. They really prioritized family, which is something that I definitely took from them. And I think not only did I take it from them for myself, but it was really meaningful for
For me, in basically who I look for as a partner. And for still, I think is really focused on this. And she obviously has an amazing career and has way more jobs than I do in addition to being a parent. But the family orientation is a really big deal. My parents always pushed for the care that we were that we like achieved and did great in school. But beyond that, they didn't really care what specific thing. We were interested in. They just
To expose us to a bunch of things. And then, if we were interested in something, then they would try to kind of push us to become excellent at that thing. My mom was never like you should go fence. She was just like, you know, sports are good, go find some sport. That's like, oh, you like fencing. It's like, all right. Well, let's get good at that. I have three sisters and they're all excellent and very different things. Our family is quite musical, but that's most expressed through Randy. Who is just an excellent musician.
You can kind of go through your, through the different siblings. I guess I got computers and seems to have worked out for. Yeah, I think so. I'd say Donna's, like the intellectual one and L is always been the kind of most well-rounded and social on athletic of us, which is as I've grown up, and I've kind of gotten even more into sports. It's just, it's been really fun. Just getting to see how much better. She is. It me and like, skiing, and all these things that we kind of grew up together doing. But, no, I think, like, that's, that's sort of how I hope.
Raise our kids is, I care a lot. They're going to be good at school. But I also care that they can get exposed to a lot of different things and kind of choose the things that they want to do. It's a fun adventure. One of the things in terms of my parenting is, I try to no matter what is going on. In the day. I always do bedtime with them. I'm gonna guess every once in a while have to travel all the way covid. It's been nice. I haven't had to travel that much. So that's maybe one silver lining of the, the pandemic, the last
I love years, but it's now I just take an hour. Every day. We read, we like saying we had some, I'm reading this book with them. Now, the way of the warrior kid, which is is good. I recommend this is, it's this
Jocko, it is, this is Jocko, will ya? Look at that? That's
great. Was recommended to me. Do you know him
too? He is so jacko's. First-ever long-form public interviews on this podcast. Are you gonna? Yeah. Yeah, so I know
Like a very well,
so, this book was recommended to me by Toby luedtke, the founder, and CEO of Shopify, and the girls love it. And now they've started training Jiu-Jitsu and they're like, so this is the stuff. It takes on a life of its own. It's super fun, having stuff that we do that, we do together every day. And then I always wrap up the day with them. We have this routine that Max calls the goodnight things, which is basically every night we go through. I'm like I what are the things that are most important in life and there?
Health loving family, and friends and something you're excited about in, like, what did you do to help someone today? And we basically go through each of these things and it's like, all right. So Health, it's like, well, what did you do to like make yourself stronger or more fit today? If you get hurt, Max broke her leg skiing once. Let's, go through the parts of your body, that like still work and that you're going to like be able to use while you're recovering. It's okay. Loving family and friends. Let's go through, you know, something that you did today with a person who is Meaningful to you. And then I think something
Excited about is and this is actually, this is like my philosophy on life. I'm just trying to like, boil it down for them. I guess the adult version of this is I think you have to have something that you're looking forward to for the future. I think that's just a really important part of keeping people going with the weight of life, but for kids, you know, it tends to be something that they're excited about tomorrow. More often than not. It's just like, all right. I'm excited to see Mom in the morning or like, I could teach Cheerios at breakfast. It's like, okay, it's not not super inspiring. But but if it's the right, the right basic idea,
And then, every once in a while, it's something like, okay, Max is like, I'm gonna get ski poles next week, and it's okay. That's a big milestone, right? Or it's like, I'm gonna lose my first tooth, right? Or the guy can't wait until I can like have do Jujitsu again. And then the last one is probably most important which is and I think especially for our family for an especially for these girls who obviously growing up and very wealthy family. It's like you're gonna do something nice to help someone every day. This is just like an important service orientation that, I think that I just
I want our family to has and we just all go around and like I tell them something nice that I tried to do to help someone and they have to tell me something nice that they did to help someone. And it could just be like a another kid at school. Or it could be mom or cousin or something like that. But probably much to their Chagrin. I don't let them go to sleep until they can tell me something that nice that they did to help someone that day. So that's probably like the best encapsulation of my how I think about parenting.
Being in the values that I want to try to impart to
them. Thank you for sharing all that. I want to say a few things. Number one, Toby, one of my favorite people. I've known Toby's since 2008 or so and people might be wondering why am I asking about family? Why am I asking about parenting? And part of the reason I'm asking is because many people who listen to his podcast, listen to model, they listen to model people and I think it's very important to get a holistic picture of how people think about and prioritize.
Things in their lives and manage things in their lives because you can end up. If you're not careful, say in the realm of business modeling, someone who is from an external perspective, very financially successful, but their family lives. Our relationships are in shambles. Yes. I do think that the micro can be a reflection of the macro, which is why I like to explore these things. So on the point of things that are important in life, man. I love that you're reading jacko's book to your kids is fantastic.
Do not well actually no someday. You should roll with Chaco. He is a black belt in Jujitsu and is an absolute killer. Let probably above your weight class, but worth rolling with nonetheless. Speaking of things that are important in life. I would love to ask you about in. This is going to be interesting transition, the sacred, and the secular and for the secular, I've of a very specific kind of technical question, but on the sacred, I'd love to ask you what role religion plays in your life.
Funny, how do you think about that?
It's actually I think playing an increasing role in recent years. And so I mean I was raised Jewish and I think for from the time I went to college or so, maybe I wasn't as focused on it, but I think a few things in the last five or six years have made me a little more focused on it. One is, of course, family and having kids, you like want to have traditions for for the kids and a lot of the time, it's okay. Well, here are the things that I did when I was growing.
Yup, and the that I thought were meaningful and the ones that are good, you want to do in the ones that aren't you don't. But I just found having that community and values grounding was really valuable. So we are raising our girls to be Jewish and that's that's just become a more important part of our our lives. So it's like, every Friday pretty much. No matter what's going on. We do Shabbat dinner Priscilla, actually loves this. I mean, she's basically it's sort of a meditative thing for her butts from think about.
Are Wednesday. She starts carving out like an hour or so of the day to like start cooking the Shabbat dinner? And basically we have a bunch of friends over and it's just like a real Center Point to the week that element I think is more cultural then. There's I'd say for me personally and for our company
Probably, for a lot of people around the world, over the last five or six years have been pretty tough. If you just look at kind of how people felt about our company in before 2016. If you look at like, average sentiment around the company, it's like, there's almost like, never a month when the sentiment was -. And since 2016, there's almost never been a month where the net sentiment has been positive. There have been so many social issues that have been kind of brought to the Forefront that we talked about this a little bit before in terms of the oversight board. And how it's important that it's not just like
Person or one company, making all these decisions trying to balance these complex, social equities, but they're just need to be things that are bigger than you in your life. So even though our country has a lot of struggles. I probably believe more in democracy now than I would have. I probably hadn't even, you know, didn't think about it that deeply before, but I just think like, you know, believing in kind of democracy in our institutions is like sort of a bigger Force than any individual.
I think it's sort of a grounding thing. But I think similarly believing that there are things that are bigger than that. Like God, I think are also is also just sort of a really grounding thing for me. So the more you sort of study the Bible or the Torah, or whatever. I mean, there's there is like, just a lot of wisdom in it in in terms of, you know, how to live your life, how to think, about creation and building no matter what you're doing, no matter how kind of modern or technological it is. I just think that there are interesting.
Lessons. It's like at the beginning of the Torah. In Genesis. Most of like the Bible is basically rules for how to live your life and, but it starts with ag. Why does it start in this place of talking about the creation starts off with like, okay? God created people in God's image and it's like, well, what does that mean? What does that mean? You're supposed to go do, but it starts off talking about creation, how God created all the stuff. It's like. Yeah. I think that there's like a real interpretation in that that is
Kind of personal to me, which is a lot of what we are here to do is create good things in the world. And I think that's like very intrinsic to when I'm having a bad day or a bad month. I just think like there's something that's sort of
Grounded in notices, like what I think a big part of what we are here to do build things, that make the world better. And I think that is like a fundamental thing. That is sort of ancient wisdom as people face challenges in their lives. And as you think about the Next Generation, I think that these are both things that tend to ground you and tie you too much longer arcs and traditions and that's certainly been the case in my
life. You know. I've actually gone to a number of Shabbat dinners here in Austin with friends of mine.
And it's made me feel like I have perhaps a ritual deficiency. It's such an incredibly grounding nourishing tradition. I mean, outside of the religious context and it also, what you're saying, reminds me, I'm blanking on the book. I think it's 4,000 weeks, but that's by Oliver Berkman, and there's a chapter called, Cosmic insignificance therapy. Just the relief that one can feel when their time Horizon, what they're considering sort of spans outside of them.
Self silent is to understand that there are things that are bigger than you, but what you do still matters,
so I, you know, I'm going to get to the secular question and I know we're running up on time shortly. But in the 2010 New Yorker profile which can't believe everything you read. So we'll see where we go. But among interests that were cited here, one was eliminating desire. Do you recall having this in your interests? And I'm curious about first though because it is
Emo.
The might have been more of a phase of
life. That was the mark game of it. All right, we could paint my
room Black, you know, it's
all right. We could, we can chalk that up to emo. Emo, emo, period, check explained. I'm going to get to the technical question before I get to that though. You did personal challenges. Yeah, annually for about 10 years, which challenge ended up. Being much easier than expected in which one ended up being much harder than expected either, or just be curious to know.
I
still do stuff like this. I don't make as big of a deal of it anymore. But I I think just kind of throwing yourself into different situations to learn new things is, I think that that's just a big part of life. So well, which ones are hard one. I tried to meet a new person every day for the year that was hard for me. I'm pretty introverted. I built some amazing relationships out of it. I started teaching this class at the local boys and girls club with a friend and my mentor.
Kids for just talked to them. A couple weeks ago. There were all like none of their families had gone to college before and now they're all graduating college. It's pretty cool. But it's I'm super introverted. So I think that that's probably been another silver lining of the whole distributed work thing for me, is having space to kind of think and kind of control my time and like, not, not get interrupted by other people so much. But it is an interesting balance being introverted, but also being pretty sensitive and caring a lot about other people. I think that
People kind of think that that introverts are like don't like other people or something. That's not true. I just get overwhelmed easily. The the interesting thing is they all went in weird directions. One year. I did this like your of running. I just did all kinds of different running. I did like spur incident, long distance running and then like my knees started hurting Stan. I brought down did triathlons and we were training for this Iron Man, but then I like I broke my arm biking. So that that ended up not not quite happening. So I mean, they all
To Go in different directions and learn Mandarin one year. Learn Mandarin. You can't learn Mandarin in the year. I think I ended up studying it for a larger one. I mean, maybe someone can I cannot you know, we talked about my language deficiency earlier on and those partially I like I like kind of throwing myself into things that they're hard. And you know, like I said before I've and I've studied a lot of languages in my life it will Spanish a little French, a little Hebrew, a lot of Latin a bunch of Greek, but it's actually hard for me. So I kind of I kind of like doing things that
That are hard for me. And obviously Mandarin is important because I'm Priscilla's families. China is so Priscilla. And I after dating, for almost 10 years had we decided we didn't want to have like a big wedding that a lot of people we didn't want a lot of people asking us about it for a while. So we did as a surprise wedding and basically didn't tell anyone in the morning of the wedding. We're kind of telling everyone and I told Priscilla's mother in Mandarin and I never knew before that if she understood.
I think I was saying and I just told her and a single tear went down her face and I was like,
Okay, my Mandarin is at least good enough for that. So a lot of them were have a physical element just because I tend to think, like, people focus so much on.
Thought process decision-making, like, how can you be as smart as possible? But I just think, like, energy level and
There hasn't been that much that's been written about historical figures and energy level as opposed to how they thought. But I actually would be very fascinated about kind of understand that, but I think just
Are we learning how to foil Surf and things like that? It's just, I mean, it's super humbling. I mean, these are like really hard skills. It takes like we boiling you can even like really hurting like this. Get going and it's um, and I'm such a beginner but it's just wild and it's so much fun. And you know, it's like you start off doing this like down wending thing, but is it think the awesome thing about the foil is like there's almost no friction compared to a surfboard, right? A surfboard. You need to like be in a big way for else like it you just stopped. But if while you're just, you're kind of standing on the board, but you're actually right.
Ting this a little wing and it has no friction. So you can kind of just are very little friction. So you can basically just write it on open, ocean swells. And it's this great workout. You just like can pump in between the swells and, you know, your heart rate gets up to like 160, but you're you can go for like a mile or more. It's just, it's wild. It's a great workout and you can't think about anything else while you were doing it because it's you will fall immediately. Learning new things is like I think a big part of what what brings me.
Enjoy the
life will link to some of your annual challenges in the show notes because you've tackled some very hard things including including Mandarin, which is certainly not one of the easier options out there. Having been having been an East, Asian Studies, major back in the day. All right, so I'll ask the technical question and if you may be boring, but then, then we'll start to wrap up right after that. This is a question from a friend, who's a technologist needs. Very curious, how you're thinking about Computing for smart glasses. So, his question was
And as a bit of a left turn yet again, but with respect to the metaverse, if the phone is one of the best places to do the Computing, how do you think about navigating say phones that operate on OS? Is that you don't control or how are you foreseeing? The future of that?
Unfolding one of the wildest technical challenges for augmented reality is that it needs to basically you'd fit all this stuff into essentially a normal pair of glasses. It's a VR will always it's supposed to
Be immersive. So, I mean, maybe it will eventually be more like ski goggles, right? It'll be, it'll be kind of thinner, but it's not like meant to just look like normal glasses. Whereas augmented reality. If you're going to wear that throughout the day. It really, you know, needs to needs to be socially acceptable. So you're basically talking about the normal frames of glasses may be called thick Rim frames, maybe 5, mm, thick, right? So within that you're talking about fitting, what would have been called a supercomputer five or ten years ago basically like a laser projector and
Then the tools to basically have that display kind of holograms with waveguides because in order to make sure that the image still in the Hologram stays synced in the right place and need to know what your eye position is. You need like lasers that understand where your eyes are and then need some speakers. Because of course, you're going to want sound printings microphones because you don't want to have an assistant and talk to it has sort of positional tracking. So that way it's like I'm sitting on your couch as a hologram and you move your head. I'm not moving off the couch. It like needs to know exactly.
Where you're looking at. So, okay, all that stuff to do, all that computation instantly in glasses that have, that are 5 mm thick. So I think this is like one of the wildest, technical challenges of the next 10 or 15 years, which is why I'm so excited about it. It's this odd thing where I think sometimes people get really inspired by physically big things. But I actually think miniaturizing things to be tiny, isn't a lot of ways, even a harder challenge. So this is a lot of the work that's that's going to happen. Will it?
Be valuable to have another phone, or something like that. I don't know. Maybe on the one hand, you can offload, Computing. So that's good. One of the biggest things that that basically is a limiting factors actually heat dissipation. So, if you have a processor, that's running on your glasses, and it's going to cause it's like making your face kind of warm and that's uncomfortable. So if you can have that in your pocket, that's better, but on the flip side, you need to find a way to get all that stuff to the glasses and back and Wireless.
Hipster actually pretty energy-intensive to. So it's some point you're going to always have some computation on the glasses. The kind of equilibrium. I don't think is to have all of the computation somewhere else and then you start getting into this interesting trade-off, which is okay. Well, if your Apple and you have the iPhone, is that an advantage? And I think that there are a bunch of different questions in that one is to what extent are they just going to Advantage their own devices or they're going to make it set. Some of the apis are open and
And I think this is somewhat of a regulatory question, right? It's like, are they going to be allowed for sure? Just make something that has, you know, they have a billion iPhones out. There are the Regulatory Agencies around the world, going to allow them to just, like, only make it set their glasses, work with their thing. It would seem to me like that. There would be an issue with that. But then, there's this other issue, which is, if you were designing a secondary device for say, input or something like that. The problem look like a phone. Exactly. So, there's also some ways in which, I think would new Computing platforms come around.
People tend to assume that that model is sort of going to work and that, whatever the new thing is just sort of a peripheral to that existing platform, but I think it kind of depends, you know, it's like maybe the watch is more of a peripheral to your phone, but I would guess that augmented and virtual reality are so fundamentally different that whatever you want in your constellation of devices. You probably want it to be designed specifically for that and not just like okay you happen to have a phone. So now let's shoehorn it.
Into into doing augmented reality to. So I've lived there's like a lot of interesting questions than this but I don't know. At the end of the day. I think there's like a, just a ton to be invented. And there are a lot of different ways that this could
go. Thank you, Mark. I appreciate you taking so much time in. What is an incredibly busy week. I can only imagine. Is there anything else that you would like to touch on any request to the audience, anything at all that you'd like to chat about or mention before we bring this to a
close?
I mean this was a pretty wide-ranging conversation. It's fun. I've never had someone start by asking me about fencing and I don't think I've ever done an interview where we've talked to her podcast. We've talked so much about sports. I've got a know. I feel like we could do a whole nother. One of these. I mean,
we didn't feel like we could we didn't go
into into science at all or curing
diseases. I know, I know. So, no have a lot of notes loves. There's a
whole whole nother session on that maybe, like another couple of hours at some point. But yeah,
I'm sure this has been a lot of fun. Thank you for having me. Yeah,
of course. I really appreciate you being on and making the time for it and everybody listening will also link to everything in the show notes certainly and if there any additional resources Mark that you or your team would like to put in the show notes, we can add those in the show notes at MDOT blog / podcast and certainly people can find you online rather easily. I would say, Facebook Zach, Instagram, / suck, and of course, people can find meta at meta.com.
And it's been fun to have a wide-ranging conversation. And as expected. I have many, many pages of topics left that we could cover in and certainly the science and research side is something that, you know, if the opportunity presents itself would love to get into at some point, but I really appreciate you taking the time to have this conversation. Work
has been fun. Thanks for having me.
Hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off and that is five bullet Friday with you. Enjoy getting a short email for me. Every Friday. That provides a little fun before the weekend, between one and a half, and two million people. Subscribe to my free newsletter. My super short newsletter called five bullet Friday, easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things. I found or discovered for have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary.
Cool, those it often includes articles and reading books. I'm reading albums. Perhaps gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech, tricks, and so on, they get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast, guess. And these strange, esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So, if that sounds fun, again, it's very short. A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. Something to think about, if you'd like to try it out. Just go to Tim.
Blog / Friday, type that into your browser. Tim DOT log / Friday, drop in your email, and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Magic spoon. Magic spoon is a low carb, high protein, and zero sugar cereal that I eat all the time. I had huge bowl of their cocoa flavor about an hour ago, after a short workout, and it's so easy for parents, instantaneous practically, and you get a lot of goodness. You get a lot of bang for the buck Time. Magazine included magics.
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