From ABC. This is the 10% happier podcast. I'm Dan Harris.
Hey, hey vulnerability is not something. I ever personally consider to be a valuable skill to cultivate. That is until I met. Today's guest brene Brown, who helped me. Understand that being vulnerable is not about weakness, nor is it about sloppy oversharing? Instead? She argues convincingly in my view, vulnerability is about honesty, realness risk, and courage, all qualities that are hugely relevant during these turbulent times in
You were living. Brunei, is a speaker author podcaster, professor and researcher who has spent two decades, studying vulnerability and courage, along with shame and empathy. She's written five. Number one, New York Times Best Sellers. She's had a special on Netflix and she's spoken to a lot of high achieving people about the importance of vulnerability from executive suites to the CIA to the Seattle Seahawks. We recorded this conversation back in 2019 during a simpler time, but I promise you, her insights are
Evergreen while I'm on the subject of vulnerability. And before we dive into the interview with Renee, I want to mention something cool that we've been working on here at 10% happier after the poly, cephalus disaster of 2020, which we should say did, have some good points for some of us, but it was difficult after this. Tricky year. We are taking a counterintuitive approach to the New Year. We're launching a special series of shows in which we will counter program, against the suddenly pernicious New Year.
Do you narrative which presupposes two things, one that you need a completely new version of yourself and to that this kind of transformation is even possible. So we're going to jettison The Fad diets and self-loathing and explore something that may sound cheesy at first, but is actually radical and evidence-based self love and self compassion again, and I suspect, you know, this as a devout anti sentimentalist. I am keenly aware that self-love can sound irredeemably corny.
Me, or self-centered or simply impossible. I'm also aware that some of you type. A people might wonder whether self-love could lead you into passivity. We're going to help you avoid all of these pitfalls are attitude, and I love this expression. It's nicely summed up in something, a zen teacher once told his students. Here's the quote, you are perfect as you are, and you could also use a little Improvement, will be kicking off this New Year's series. Next week, with a new episode featuring queer eyes. Kurama.
And psychologists, Chris germer karamo. In case you didn't know, is a licensed clinical social worker, who talks a lot about self-compassion and self-love on the show. Chris germer is a clinical psychologist, a lecturer on Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and the co-developer of a massively popular program, called Mindful self-compassion, and there's more starting on January 4th. We're also launching a free New Year's meditation challenge in the 10% happier app. We did this last year, and I think the year before people love this.
And this year we're going to be featuring some of our most beloved teachers. Susan, pivert where Isola and Jeff Warren. It's a 21-day challenge. It's really gonna help you take the concepts were exploring here on the podcast and gently pound them into your neurons. If, by the way, you have any doubt about whether meditation in the form of a challenge can work for you, listen to this feedback. We got from a new user after last year's challenge. She said, and I'm quoting here. I downloaded this app shortly before a mindfulness challenge began in.
Ari, I wasn't certain meditation was for me, but I figured I'd try the challenge which was to meditate 15 times in a 21-day period. The first three days I did the challenge meditations and I found the practice calming and relaxing. Then I started the basics course, on the app, doing one of those meditations. In addition to the challenge meditation, not only did I meditate every day of the challenge. I have meditated every day since then, compared to the other meditation apps out there. This one is the Rolls Royce of meditation apps.
I love that. So come join us inside the Rolls-Royce of meditation apps and start The Challenge on January 4th with thousands of other meditators, ringing in the new year, with some sanity, it is easy and it is free. Just download The Temper sent happier app today, wherever you get your apps or by visiting 10%.com. That's 10% all one word. Spelled out and check it out. It's gonna be great.
Alright, enough out of me. Let's dive in. Now, with brene brown.
Such a pleasure to meet you. I really enjoyed watching you on Netflix. Thank you for making time for this. It's
great to meet you too.
So you I was just looking at your bio and it says, I've spent the past two decades, studying courage, vulnerability, shame and empathy. And I'm just so curious. How and why did you come to these four
emotions? It actually makes perfect sense in my mind. So, I have a bachelor's Master's and PHD in social work. And so,
So as a social worker, like the my big takeaway from the $100,000 of school loans for that for that experience was connection is really what matters it is, like where neurobiologically spiritually physically mentally hardwired to be in connection with each other.
So I was very interested in understanding more, the anatomy of connection like when like it's such a Gauzy word, right? Like what does it mean? And so when I started interviewing and and I had had some experiences around shame, some personal professional experiences around shame, like, I think I grew up in a pretty shame-based environment. And then when I was in undergrad, I worked in residential treatment with kids that had been removed from their parents and would grow up in residential treatment until they aged out. And we had a Clinical Director.
For there that used to say you cannot shame or belittle people into changing. And the first time I heard him say it. I was like, actually scheduled a meeting with him. I was just like a I was just like a direct care person. Getting my Bachelor's degree at the time and he's like, what's up? And I said, you can't shame or belittle people into changing. I said, you understand. That's the way the world works, right? He said he kind of laughs. He's like, what do you mean? I said parents schools? Media marketing. Like that's the way the world works.
And he goes maybe but they're you know as a clinician of 30 years. You cannot shame or belittle people into meaningful lasting change. So I think I went into my social work career kind of holding that shame thing right there. And then I got the connection the big dose of connection through my degree. So I wanted to study what is connection? Does shame have a role? And I spent six years like, really looking at that and then at the end of that six years, I had all this data and I was like,
Oh my God, I know so much about shame, but I, but inside the data that I have already, is the answer to another question, which is, there are actually people who wake up in the morning and say I'm enough.
Like no matter what gets done and what is left undone. No matter how imperfect I am. I'm enough like, what are those people have in common? Because that was like a very strange notion to me. I was not one of those people. And so, I started looking in the same data set at and I call them the whole hearted people because there's I'm an Episcopalian and there's a, there's a line in the book of common prayer that says something about loving with our whole hearts. And I was like, these are Pi would describe these as people who live in love with their whole Hearts. So as I started getting into that data,
It was started emerging very clearly, was this Central variable that they shared in common was the capacity and willingness to be vulnerable.
And I was like, oh my God, this is bad news. This is awful. I wanted the answer to be. They were shame researchers. Like the answer to wholeheartedness Is, you know, a lot about shame. So then that took me to courage and vulnerability from there. So that's the long, the long trip Long
Trail. What kind of change did these conclusions make in your own life?
I have like a massive breakdown really? I did like I literally had to put the data away because you have to lock it up under like human subjects protocol had to lock it up, put it away and then go find a therapist. I've been to that point in my life. I had spent my entire life trying to outrun and outsmart vulnerability. Like I'm I was not raised to believe that vulnerability was anything but weakness and kind of the first step to giving people something to hurt you. Like. I just
Do vulnerability like, at
all? So, was that a problem in your personal life in your parenting and in your
marriage? I didn't think so. I didn't think so. At the time. I remember like this is a story that like, I've been thinking a lot about this sharks. I've never told it before, but I remember in the midst of this kind of break down period, And I was just I was
Always proving and trying to be perfect and like wound super tight. So I was kind of the alpha parent, you know, and like people would call me and say, hey, our daughters allowed to get their ears pierced yet, and like no one more year. And then they say, our kids can, our kids watch this movie. I'm like, yes, but only with her nose. Like I was that, like, kind of the alpha mom had the answers. I had the answers, but I guess terrified on the inside all the time. And I remember, it's a funny story. I
Remember being at a, it was, it was Easter Monday. Like this is Easter Monday. I don't know, 10, or 12 years ago and being a yogurt shop with Ellen, after school. And I was Ramones your daughter Islands my daughter. She's a sophomore in college now, and I remember thinking God, look at all these moms and daughters with their kids and everything's monogrammed. I should get more stuff. Monogrammed and my phone rang and I was like, should I answer it? I'm having this moment with my daughter and I was like hello.
And there was a woman on the other end. She said dr. Brown and I said, yes. And she goes, where are you? And I said, I'm in Houston. Where are you? And she was, it's Ginny the event coordinator and I said, hi, Jenny. And I thought to myself, God, these event coordinators are just like anxious bunch of people and she is no wig. Where are you? And I said, I'm in Houston, and she goes there are two thousand people coming to see you tomorrow morning, including the governor of the state. Why we just got a notice from the travel agent that you missed your flight. And like, this is this
Like a reoccurring nightmare for me. And so I was like, what? And I said, my flights on the 23rd or something at three o'clock and she has. It's the 23rd. It's 4:30. Oh no, and I remember like time slowed down and I just was like, and I got in the car and Ellen, was in the back seat and she's like, are you okay? Like mom made a big mistake, Mommy made a big mistake and I was like texting my husband and I remember he came home to drive me to the airport. I'd left patients in the waiting room. He's a pediatrician.
Ian, and he's like, you're falling apart Brunei. And I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm good. And I said, oh my God, I started crying. He's like on the way the airport is, what's wrong. I'm like, normally. When I go out of town, I make all the food in advance and I put Ellen's school closed up like with little clothespins. It's a Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday and he goes and I said and there's nothing to eat in the house. I've made nothing in advance because I don't mean to kick you while you're down but we don't really eat that crap while you're away. We both sickly get pizza every night and I
Ellen, wear whatever she wants. Yeah, and I was like and that was kind of the height of the breakdown. I was like, my life is unmanageable. Like things are not working. And so I say in therapy for a couple years and kind of try to deal with the perfectionism and it was all about the vulnerability. It was all about
I couldn't manage uncertainty.
So can you help me understand what you mean specifically and granularly when you say vulnerability? And then I guess the second part of that question would be how did you and how does one operationalize that? Yeah,
so the the definition of vulnerability that emerge from the data is the emotion we experienced in times of uncertainty.
Risk and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is that that affect an emotion that we feel. When we feel uncertain at risk or emotionally exposed, meaning, we may lose control of our emotions or we're showing emotion and we can't perceive what people think of us because of that emotion. So that's vulnerability and certainty risk, emotional exposure.
And I think the best way to think about operationalizing, it is most of us in order to kind of stay safe during vulnerability, especially growing up developed effective armor. Like, how do we how did we learn to manage uncertainty and uncertainties much more threatening as a child than isn't as an adult, right? Because I mean your survival could be a bait, you know, at risk over the years, we learn to armor up and there are many different forms of armor. Perfectionism, is one cynicism. It was one.
All is one power over. I mean, there's a lot of different ways. We armor up against
uncertainty thinking I've checked all those
bucks. Yeah. Yeah, and so,
What we know now and it was interesting because I just finished this seven-year leadership study. And as part of that leadership study. We wanted to see if we could measure courage, and vulnerability and people. So we worked with NBA and emba students at Wharton at UPenn Kellogg at Northwestern and Jones at rice. And we developed this instrument. It's an instrument to measure during leadership, like, how courageous of a leader are you? But the questions all relate back to vulnerability, meaning.
You know, can you tolerate uncertainty or do you default to action bias, you know, can you stay in problem solving or do you just need to fix anything? Do you talk if you have something difficult to say, do you talk to people about it or about people you know? Like and it's really about the capacity to be
invulnerability and I'm on the wrong side of some of
those me too. Me too, but I'm working on it. Like I'm aware of my armor and I'm aware of how it shows up and when
The problem is, and I spent a lot of time and I mean, you know, do work inside big companies like the Facebook's the Google's, the, you know, the CIA Special Forces, like I do a lot of leadership work. And what was really interesting, is, it would take me a long time to convince people that vulnerability was okay, until about a year and a half ago when I was at Fort Bragg, and I just asked the simple question that came to my mind, which is, can anyone in here. Also Special Forces troops. Can anyone?
Here, give me an example of courage in your life or in someone else's life that wasn't defined by uncertainty risk and emotional exposure.
And finally, someone stood up and said many tours. There is no courage without vulnerability and then I thought was that a, that a fluke and then and then you could see the emotion, well, up in the soldiers.
Then the next weekend with the Seattle Seahawks doing some work with Coach Carroll. Asked the same question. They took a minute, couple minutes later. Michael. Bennett said, no, there is no courage without vulnerability and just the other day. Someone sent me a picture of LeBron James, who writes the, the Roosevelt quote, that I use to kind of ask the epigraph or vulnerability and courage on his shoes. Like, if you're going to be brave, you're going to know, uncertainty and risk and emotional exposure. And if you think you're being courageous,
And you're comfortable. You're probably not being that
brave. Can you reproduce that Roosevelt quote from memory
or can I can? It's not the critic who counts. It's not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where, the doer of Deeds could have done it better. The credit belongs to the person who's actually in the arena whose face is marred with dust and sweat and blood who strives valiantly
Who in the end while he knows? He may know the Triumph of high achievement, at least if he fails, he does. So daring
greatly.
And so, just back to part of my question. Well, let me start with you when you went through the therapy and started to make some of these changes in your own life, embracing vulnerability. How did that look? When the rubber hit the road in your lived experience?
Did your husband tell me if we gave him the Mike? Mmm, we're kids.
My husband would say.
Bison would just say thank God, probably. But I'll tell you what, my therapist would say, I remember. So it was an interesting time because let's see. I'm going to, I'm sober, so I'll be 22 years sober in may like, in a couple weeks. And so, really, thanks big deal. Yeah, it was a big deal, and it was a really weird deal for me because I had a very high bottom, like I did a genogram like, which is like a family map that social workers and counselors do for my last.
Project in my MSW program, my masters in social work program and I had to call my mom to, you know, like help me figure out the family tree and it was like, oh my God, there's so much alcoholism and she's like, yeah, it's really bad. I mean, it was just like I couldn't believe it and I was like, this is awful and that I had a purpose, I was wild and so I was like, this is not worth it. This is not worth. This is ravaged, my family. Like this is not worth it. And so I remember going to my first AA meeting there like now you're not drunk enough to be here.
Here. And then I went to a no, a mean like no, we think you belong over the codependence and I went over there. And finally, I got like the sponsor you're supposed to get the first week and she's like, you've got the pupu platter of addictions like a little bit of everything. And I was like, so what am I supposed to do? And she was, I think you should stop drinking smoking. Interfering in your family's life and eating. It's like what's left. What's left? Yeah. And so I was newly. So part of this I think was brought on by, like I was really
Kind of working are really rigorous spiritual program at the time and having this breakdown. And I remember one day telling my therapist or name is Diana. I said, I need you to give me something and she's like, what do you need? I said, I need an anti-anxiety medicine if I'm not drinking and I'm not eating and now in a try to be vulnerable. I'm losing control right now. Like I need some kind of medicine and she goes, tell me why you think you need it and I said because I'm like a turtle without a shell.
In a in the Briar Patch, like everything is scary and hurts. And every every time I move it's like I feel something terrible and she said, well, let's work on getting out of the Briar Patch and I was like, huh and she goes before. We give you the shell which for you has been drinking or food or you know, perfectionism or work before I give you another Shell. Let's try just moving out of the Briar Patch.
And so I think when the rubber hits the road, it was re-examining my life and just saying.
No, to a lot of things. I was afraid to say no to like I can get into scarcity. Like, what if, you know, what, if you ask me to come on the show and I say no, and then everyone starts asking, do you have feeling? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, but you mean like those kind of things and like, what if I don't agree to do something and then will people think I'm not grateful and then so not disappointing people not having good boundaries. And so that's what the run for me. The vulnerabilities. There's nothing more vulnerable when you're raised.
Like the good girl perfectionistic take care of everybody, you know, problem that wait to say no and set boundaries. And so I started having to set really hard boundaries with my family. I'm the oldest of four. I had to start setting boundaries at work, which I kind of suck at still, but I'm getting better but I just had to start saying, no,
it's interesting because setting boundaries doesn't seem like vulnerability.
Really do think about it. Think about
Think about you've got a parent. I'm trying to make up a scenario. You've got a parent that you love and who loves you and you love to see your parent with your child. But your parent talk to your child in a way that you and your partner have decided not to speak to your child. So you have to say look, here's what's okay. I love you all together. Here's what's not, okay, you can't use that language when talking to my child. Who do you think you are? You're still alive. We did pretty good, you know, boundaries are always vulnerable because
You're going to disappoint
people. Oh, it's in the setting of The
Boundary. It's in the study and it's in the holding of them and the maintaining of them. Like here's what's okay. Here's what's not I mean as a leader. You're revealing what you care about. Yeah you are and it's choosing self-respect over making other people happy.
Most of us were not raised that way.
Right? Like
I might have been, were you? Well, yeah, but I think there are downsides to it. We can
get to it. Okay. Yeah, so I was raised more like be polite, make people come, you know, instead of might
be some gender stuff in here, too.
Oh, no question. There's all kinds of gender stuff and privileged stuff. And so I think. Yeah. And there's Texas stuff in there.
you know, so
Yes, I started setting boundaries are so I started saying no, I started. You know, I had to weed through some friends. Yeah, which is hard.
But what about the control? The these are not my words. These are the words of your sponsor interfering in your in the lives of your family being so wound tight, making sure that are all the meals are cooked before you leave. And the closer picked out that continued. I let go you let go.
I really let go. Yeah, I let go and I let go.
I let go of the family stuff first because it just wasn't first of all, obviously, it's not helping. And then I just started to let go and it was excruciating.
Yeah, because you know that behavior where you're trying to control everything and you and it's like help disguised as like it's not really help. Like I'm trying to manage everything to the for the best possible outcome for me.
So I was imagining vulnerability more as and this may be one of the myths because you in the shin the your Netflix special. You talk about the I think it's six minutes of vulnerability, but I thought it was more like just like wanton
sharing. Now. I'm not a fan of wanton sharing. No. In fact, I think one of the big myths is vulnerability disclosure. That's one of the six myths. It's not it's you know, I do think it's important to share and did build trust but I think vulnerability - boundaries is not vulnerability at all.
It's inappropriate sharing oversharing shock and awe desperation, but it's not real vulnerability. I mean, real vulnerable. It's like When leaders say to me, like I believe, what you're saying. How often should I cry? What should I disclose? And I'm like man, you may believe what I'm saying, but you don't get what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is if you want to be a leader who believes in vulnerability. Like, for example,
A lot of times I go into companies because they're having struggles around Innovation and creativity, but they've set up these perfectionistic cultures where failure is completely punished. And so you can't expect people to innovate and create. If you don't allow people to fail because by definition Innovation is iteration failure in iteration, like that's the definition. And so it's not about personal disclosure. In fact, a lot of people use personal disclosure as armor. Hmm.
Like, I just met you. I really like you, like we have some things in common. Here's my deepest darkest secret. And what I'm really doing is testing to see if you'll still be around or confirm. My thinking that no one really cares about my struggles, you know, that's armor. So vulnerability is not that it's about the ability to manage uncertainty risk and emotional exposure without armor.
And one of the things that was really interesting in the leadership study is my hypothesis, which was wrong. Was that fear was the greatest barrier to Courageous leadership, but it's not fear because the courageous leaders that we interviewed were like, I'm afraid all the time. I mean, I'm afraid all day long.
The biggest barrier to create just leadership and courage in general is not fear. Its armor. What do we do when we feel exposed? How do we self-protect and how do those pieces of armor? Keep us from growing into who were supposed to be
in the armor, donned out of fear?
Sometimes.
But not always, that's not always the driver. I think they have it. It can be habit. It can be control. It can be, it can be a lot of things that I think the armor, but it's not. It's look, one of the biggest findings for me again. Raised with generation Texan. We grew up believing, you're either Brave or afraid.
And what I believe is absolutely true based on, you know, just now, topping 400,000 pieces of data is that you can be brave and Afraid at the exact same time at the exact same moment. And most of us are
And so it's not it's not fear that gets in the way. It's succumbing to needing to armor up.
That really gets in the way. It's does that make sense.
It's not fear is not the problem. It's giving in to the
fear being and and the result of getting into the fear is armor.
It's actually it's about kind of embracing your fear or as you say embracing the
suck it last night. We did this really cool event here in New York and a woman stood up. And she was shaking and she said, you know, I just finished my first book. I'm writing really honestly about addiction and parenting and, and my life and she's
Just like I'm screwed, if it does well because people will know more about me and I'm screwed. If it doesn't do well. And I'm just, I feel sick. Like and I said, congratulations and I said
That's what courage feels like.
And she is open it so uncomfortable. And I said, I know that's what Brave feels like. And I said, let me ask you this. Do you feel alive? She has oh, yeah, I feel alive from head to toe and I said that's courage right now is comfort.
That somehow, we believe.
That we are entitled to be comfortable.
And I've never done anything really meaningful in my life. That was comfortable.
My mother who's a kind of a trailblazing physician Advance pretty high in the hierarchy at Harvard Medical School before. There were a lot of women there and she likes to say, you know, you're out front when you have Arrows In Your
Butt. I mean, that's it. I mean, that's it. No one out front.
Is it beat up a little bit?
I mean, and so and what scares me, I think about me. There's many, there are many reasons. I'm hopeful today as a researcher kind of sitting across from people for the last couple decades. I think what scares me today.
That's relatively new is, I see an increasing number of people opting out of love because of their fear of grief opting out of Courage because of their fear of failure.
opting out of belonging because of their fear of disconnection, like,
And I think somehow it was that we've been sold a bill of goods that somehow we deserve or entitled to not hurting.
And no one knows how to hurt, you know, and so instead of feeling pain, we cause pain.
You know, instead of feeling uncomfortable and just kind of riving it a little bit and breathing through it. That's why when, you know, like there's an interesting intersection with artwork. I think, we don't know how to handle the immediacy. The physiology of vulnerability. Like interesting. I did some work with a company.
Very well probably one of the fastest rapid growth companies in the United States right now and I spent a day with 20 senior managers and the minimum 10 year in this room was probably 25 years and we did these role-plays and about half of these folks. Very Senior People Tapped Out of the easiest role play. I brought three increasing difficulty Tapped Out of This role play because they said it was too uncomfortable.
It was a really easy role play. It was like you had to tell someone on your team that the cologne or perfume that they were wearing was giving other team members headaches and it went from that role play to a roleplay where I'd have to sit down from you and say Dan. I know you've been working your butt off for the last six months and you really wanted Project Lead, but the team decided that did that to give it to someone else. And I want to be honest with you, about why?
There have been some issues around reliability that have been around for two years and no one has ever given you, that feedback, people have just passed you along from Team to Team without ever giving you the opportunity to work on this. And I'm here to stop that. I'm here to say. We need to own you because so
often that was so well
delivered. Oh, I have an advantage because I know the role play, but but I have to do it in front of people a lot because they're like, there's no, there's no possible way to do this without being a jerk. And,
and your point is there's vulnerability in that.
No, the person saying those words. He's the one with the power. It's the vulnerability in being honest.
Yeah, because you can be that you could like gear up and be like, hey, you didn't get it, work harder,
or you could be avoidant and just passed them
along and just pass them along. Right. But the vulnerability I could like one of the big one of the big things I talked about in Dare to lead. The leadership book is clear is kind. I'm clear as unkind.
You know, like when we are not clear with people and we, you know, we make up a million stories about while it hurt their feelings. It's all about Argan Comfort, clear His Kind. Here's the thing. I believe in you, we got some work to do. I think we can do it together. I think it's going to take six months. Here's what it looks like. Operationalized, just really clear. Here's what's. Okay. Here's what's not. Okay. Let's dig in clear kind.
But that's horrible and you have no idea how many people can't do
that, but it's not the, it's not the stereotypical version of vulnerability. Now what I like about
it is it is real vulnerability. It's not the methodology. Yes. Yeah, and I don't know, someone asked me the question and I don't know the answer to it on Twitter or yesterday or something. Why do you think these myths, surround vulnerability? And do you think there's, there's, you know, do you think there's a gender thing here? The vulnerable vulnerability is seen, you know.
No as weakness, and and the thing about it is that there are there are women who struggle with this as much as men for sure. And I think it's about shame because a greatest shame trigger for men is the perceptions of weakness.
And for women, it's don't be imperfect. Be perfect and take care of everyone while showing no effort and so vulnerability is just right in the face of both of those.
Does that make
sense? It does. I'm just thinking, like, is that the thing that I know that would trigger the most shame for me?
Victim thing that would trigger the most shame for me would be that? I'm somehow irredeemably selfish.
What do you mean? Give me?
Example. Just don't care about anybody except for myself, that that stuff in that area.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I got some stuff from there, too.
It's not necessarily weakness. Me. Yeah. Well, it's a kind of weakness. It is not. It's not the where I think most Minds would go immediately when you think of
weakness. Yeah.
Yes, I think that's why a lot of male leaders will say things to me. Like, so should I cry? And I'm like, I don't know if you're cry or cry. If you're not don't, don't fake cry. I mean, there's nothing there's nothing worse than fake vulnerability that that will bite you in the butt every time.
Have you ever had a 360 review? Okay, so I had one recently I'm writing a book about it and some of the listeners to the show will be familiar because I've talked about it a little bit and want a couple the findings go directly to what if first of all is devastating was like 41.
Page 16 people anonymously interviewed for an hour. Forty one page report. It was it was horrifying and I went into a lot of Shame immediately after reading it for an extended period of time and I can still go back to it. This happened. I would say nine months ago and one of the couple of the things that are that came up one was lack of clarity and feedback. So a kind of cowardice there around just telling people the truth in a kind way. And if I did tell him the truth, it was often an unkind way.
Which was clear, but probably the signal wasn't received, because it was, there was too much can be heard. Yes. As a bigger one, though. The number one complaint. If memory serves was emotional, guardedness.
It's goes right to what you're talking about. And I've wondered, and I still wonder what do I do with that? Because I'm not a crier. And I know you're saying you're not saying go cry now, but I don't know what emotional lowered. Emotional Garden is would actually mean. It's a tough question to put to you because you don't know
me. I don't know you. Yeah, I do I guess.
I guess I would ask myself if I got that feedback.
I guess the only thing I would ask myself. I have mixed feelings about
360s. First of all. Oh, really? Yeah, for sure. A more.
I don't think there is the I think a 360 review is super helpful. How they're handled and done. I don't think is really helpful
because the mean to get the results in you're on your own.
Well, you get the results in, you're on your own. And I've never really sat across from anyone. That's had a 360 that didn't push them into shame and shame is usually not a catalyst for growth and
change, right? So luckily, this 360 was done by a very skillful sort of Buddhist in
Like Ted company and they've there's been ongoing. Oh, that's great. One-on-one. Yeah, that's great coaching young. Very strenuous pushing away from me from shame.
Yeah, so I think if I were you like, this is this is why the 360 is hard. I'd rather be in a culture where people can have these conversations directly in the eyes of the people that are giving the feedback. Because I would say, help me understand like I would, I would want examples and I say, help me understand what it might look like if I were last emotionally,
Guarded.
How would I show up different with you, or for you?
What makes it scary? What makes my armor scary around that for you? What makes what makes me is? It my difficult to approach? Like I would ask a lot of questions because I think in those questions that's where the real heart of change is so like, so I just got, I wasn't a formal 360, but it was like more like a frickin intervention where
people on my team, sat me down and said
There is an emotional intensity about you when you're fired up about something when you're really mad. That's very hard to be across from and we're used to it. But some of the more Junior people are not used to it. And we know that's important you to you, for you to have a culture where people can speak up and disagree.
If you don't do something with that, you're not going to have the culture you want.
Wow, so brene Brown. The queen of vulnerability was it can run afoul of her
own? No. Yeah. Because I'm pissed because I would, because I would never done myself, the queen of vulnerability. I would say, I'm a vulnerability researcher, who's working on it every
day. Yeah, that was unfair in my heart. But basically, I meant like the person who has popularized, this concept in a way that is really gotten into the culture. Perhaps the most prominently. Let's maybe that
more fair, but it so I apologize for the glibness, but it's so interesting and I think, very important that you're willing to say this, because,
Does it just because you've named something and described it and advise people effectively doesn't mean you're advertising yourself as an avatar of perfection.
Now, my God, no, I think that's why people resonate with a TED Talk and hopefully, with the Netflix special because they see me struggling. I'm honest Steve and I have been together for 30 years, and we have two amazing kids, but like I'm like,
Charlie will come in and say, hey, this happened at school and I'm like, that's I'm trying to do this like Buddhist thing from Pema chodron. Where compassion is not a relationship between the wounded and the healed. It's relationship of equals and that compassion is knowing your Darkness well enough that you can sit in the dark with others. So I have, I use a light metaphor a light switch metaphor with my kids, where if they say something hard is going on. I try not to run a flip the switch on. I just try to sit with him in.
The dark and teach them how to feel that and be in that. That's really good. It's really it's really powerful and my husband's a pediatrician. So he like uses it a lot to like because some pots that sometimes parents will say, how do I fix it? And they're like, you know, sit with them in the dark and teach them to biggest gift. You can do is teach them how to feel the disappointment and feel their way through it. Teach them how to feel the grief or you know, and so I'll say, you know, Charlie and hope I can you fix it. I'm like, you know, I can't but I can be with you in it and I can tell you about
I felt before when this something like this has happened to me and then he'll be like, okay, I think I'm going to have some alone time and then I'll walk out and look at my husband like with like like you better fix this crap right now. I mean, you fixing, you call those teachers and you tell them right now that I will have them arrested. Like like like like I go crazy like a human being
like, there's an emotional, intensity.
There's emotional intensity or like like this, friend of mines daughter. Got, like somebody ask her to the homecoming dance and then called her.
And said, I decided take someone else. I didn't know. She would say. Yes. And like they got someone better.
And so like the vulnerable response like the would be like I really hear that that's really hard. It's hard to see our kids in pain, but I was like, oh no, I know someone who knows the Jonas Brothers. I'll have them come, pick her up and then we'll show that little jerk, you know, like and she's like that for kids like 14 and my own. I'm gonna beat him up like no, so no. I'm just a normal person that
The only difference between me and probably even like, you know, my dad or people that were just like, don't be vulnerable. So this is dangerous, you know, is I'm aware of what I'm doing, but it's still my default.
How did it feel when you get that feedback from your
team?
I super
grateful. They're hurt.
You know, there was a twinge of
I recognize that in myself and I recognize that in a lot of leaders that I work with to that emotional intensity.
No, it didn't because I trust them. And I think we have this culture at work that we've worked really hard on. And so like that store that that the saying the story. I tell myself, we better that. We say it 20 times a day.
Can you say more about that? Because you talked about this in the special and I think it's really potentially very powerful. So, can you just talk a little bit about that? That expression? The story. I tell
myself. Yeah. It was interesting when I was doing the research for Rising strong. First of all, this sentence, like the story. I'm making up the story. I'm telling myself, has floated around in the data for over a decade.
That never really saturated and for qualitative researcher. I'm not going. I'm looking for data that saturates across like that. I see it so much. It's predictably going to come up and everything. And so but then when I started doing the research for Rising strong, which is about, okay, so you're brave and vulnerable. The only guarantee is you're going to fall and no failure and just, you know, set back in disappointment. How do people get back up? Is there a way that people have found that works? So every single one of the research participants that we would really classify.
His highly resilient, like the highest resilient, you some form of this thing is and what, as I started digging into it, it made total sense because when something difficult happens, so, let's just do a scenario here. I work for you.
And you and I get out of a meeting and I look at you and I'm walking back to my office and I'm like, hey, good meeting Dan and you look at me and go what the hell burn a and you just give me this terrible look. And then walk in your office. Everyone. I know would be triggered by that. Right? Right. And so the brain says, my job is to support you. And in survival is my only thing I care about, there's no close second. What's going on? I can, you know, tension anxiety. It's not just like a saber-tooth running after us. It's the part of our brain. That's like fight-flight.
Italy freeze. And it still perceives vulnerability, emotional risk, as threat. And so the brain, If you give the brain of story,
And you help the brain, you know, because if we know now for through PET Imaging the brain recognizes the narrative pattern of beginning middle and end it explains. Why we've used story to teach and communicate. Since the beginning of time you give the brain a story that helps it understand. What's safe. What's dangerous? What's okay, what's not? Okay, who's after you, who's for you, you get a chemical reward if I can say. Oh,
Dan hates me. He's always hated me. He's never trust me. He hated what I shared. He hated my presentation that meeting they bring them like, okay, chemical reward. We know what's happening. We know, he's not safe. We know how to protect you. The problem is that the reward happens regardless of the accuracy of the story and then more nebulous and Gauzy. The story is the less. The reward. It doesn't want something like, hey, what's up with Diane? Maybe it's not about me, no reward.
So what I found is that so I pick up the phone. I call Lauren my calling you. Hey, do you have a meeting with Dan today? Yeah, Dan our don't go cancel the meeting. I don't know what's going on with him. He's going nuts. He's I think I'm gonna hit you. May get fired today. Like, how many times a day? Do you think that happens in offices? Where people start? I mean, have you ever let a team through
change? I've never had anybody report to me in my
profession. You had. Okay. So like in the absence this people can take this to the bank in the absence of data, we
Store. Yes, I've done that a million times. Yes, because my boss is right
because we're a meaning-making species. The great example is, you're in a hard text conversation and you get the three dots, and then nothing and then nothing and then an hour later still nothing. You've got a huge narrative. Built up about what's happening right where that person is. Probably just like, you know, go in for their run or yeah, so I come back to you and knock on your door. Hey, Dan, you have a second. Sure. Come in.
We got out of the meeting today, and I said, have a good day. And you kind of looked at me like you were pissed off the story. I'm making up as something happened in that meeting that you didn't like, and I want to see if there's anything we need to clean up, and you look at me and go that meeting was scheduled to 11 o'clock.
We got out of there at 12:30. I have Zumba at 11:30 every Thursday. I'm like, but what about the part about me? And you're like, no part about you. I mean, how often do we do this with our partners? Jimmy? Like,
hey, I'm trying to think what I would say. If my partner said she had Zumba.
Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, and he's like, like I'll say Stephen like, hey, I've got the like, you know, got the Pediatric Society meeting tonight. You don't need to go how. Okay.
Are you mad? I'm like, no, I mean like if you don't want to take me to your party, like if you know, if you don't like what I'm wearing, that's fine. You take call a date, get a date. He's like Jesus. I just him saying like, I know you're busy. I know you're flying out tomorrow morning. And these things are so like, I'm like, are you sure? He's like, okay, what story you making up for today? And I'm like and we do it together all the time now.
But the stories that we make up.
Because we're making them up to self-protect.
The stories we make up, grab our greatest shame triggers, our biggest fears about ourselves and just explode them in order to assure maximum protection. So, whatever that shame trigger is for me, you know, like, oh my God, there's a pediatric dinner tonight. I don't have the right thing to wear. And so, you don't think I have clothes to wear tonight. He's like, where your jeans I'm wearing. I don't care. Like, you know, he wears a Wily veteran, jeans, everyday and cowboy boot store, like, you could care less. What I wear.
Um, but I'm making up that story because I'm in a bad place because I'm packing to go to New York the next day and I have no cute outfits to wear on your podcast, you know, like that that it's that's how it were. And with kids. I know you have a
teenager, right? I have a four-year-old. He acts like a
teenager. We have four year old. You got a baby. Yeah, so I have a 13 year
olds mother last night.
Daddy hates you. And I know cuz I called him and he told me so he acts like a teenage that's for. Yeah,
but that's that's that's the beginning of the what's the pecking order of Love
here? I was like, wow, his game is strong game is strong.
How well you better you better get some of these skills right now. You better skill up.
No, I'm worried that I know where he's getting it from. That's my shame place. That's the story. I told myself that he's going to be not a nice guy because Daddy's not a nice guy. He's
See me do any of that stuff and he certainly didn't call me. That's totally normal. Just manipulating his
that's totally normal. Yeah, that's for, yeah, that's such a great time. That's like it's so funny. It's a great thing about being married to a pediatrician is like, I'm like, this is what happened today. It's just the word, you know, she's like, she's like, trying on that behavior. So developmentally appropriate. Great news, you know, I'm like really. He's like great news. It's like think that's a BS frame just for me, but I'll take it.
Yeah, but better story. Yeah, I know. But like I have a 13 year-old, a 19 year old and so teaching them kind of we call it s FD for
you can say whatever I want, will bleep it.
But ya know, sfd first draft and for kids stormy, first draft, you know, churches. So the first draft is the first story we make up. And so when my kids are on social media, are there, like everyone's going, everyone's doing this. But me, everyone was invited, but me, yeah, that everyone
It's you know fractions, but me I'm like do we know that for sure. Is that a story you're making up?
Well, it's a story. I'm making up. I'm like, okay, how do we check it
out?
And so you use this in your office culture, which made that intervention with you. It sounds like
that. Yeah, it's because we tell weird truth-tellers really and it's when people come in and work with us or they're new. They're like, I've never worked somewhere like this. Like we'll just say, like, when they gave me the feedback, I said, okay. I'm going to call timeout, which is a big part of our culture because if you're going to have clear kind hard conversations, you have to get permission to call, try. I'm going to call time out for a second.
I'm feeling a little shamey because I don't want to be that person.
But can we Circle back in 30 minutes? And they're like, yeah, so I just kind of walked around the parking lot and took it in and then came back and I said that I had to have been really hard to tell me. So I really appreciate it.
I will think about it and I will work on it and I have seen that intensity and I kind of know when I get into it. I don't want to make you responsible for my behavior. But is there any way you can give me a sign when it's happening? If I am missing it?
And they said yeah and I said, okay, but they've all been on the receiving end of that. And so it's
When you normalize discomfort and hard conversations in an environment Miracles can happen. I mean, but I will tell you like with my CFO. I called him probably. I don't know, six months ago. It was I think and I said, I think we should pull out this partnership right now in partnership with a big media partner that we were negotiating. I said, we should pull out this partnership right now and he's like, we're not even we haven't even Inked it yet. It's not even really a contract yet. And I was like, yeah, this is just BS, like I'm out and he's like,
What's going on? And I said, well, the story eye makeup is that they've had the red line. They're not getting back with us. They're not interested. So, I'm going to pull out before they say, they're not interested. And he said, okay, super helpful. They've had the red line for two hours. It's 62 Pages. We will not hear anything from them for at least five or six days as it. Oh, okay. He's like, do you still want to back out? Now? I'm super excited about it. But I'm just like you like, you know, so we are always the story. I'm telling myself. It was story eye makeup, is you
Undo that last night because you disagreed with us going in that direction. And the person will say
I did it last night. I turned it into your assistant and I don't know where it is, but that's not, you know, so we're constantly checking things
out. I love that. I think it's great because, you know, I am, I have kind of two jobs. I work at ABC News where I do anchor, a couple shows and technically nobody really reports to me. And then I also have a startup company Tennyson happier. We have a meditation app, and I'm actually now really starting to get pretty granular about corporate culture and I'm learning a lot. I've never really been in a kind of management position. They need you. I don't actually have
have an executive role in the company of a co-founder, but I'm interested in all this because and then I've got a lot out of your Netflix special on this level of like Creek. How do you create a culture? Where there is? I think the term of art is psychological safety where people feel safe speaking and then, yeah, and you can be on the right side of clear and kind and yeah, it's all super interesting, much more of my conversation with brene, brown coming up after this.
Staying informed has never been more important.
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I've asked none of the questions on my list in front of me because you said so many interesting things. I'm just responding on that. So now I don't have to prepare for anything ever. You said something about people who are wholehearted, they wake up in the morning and feel like I'm good enough no matter what happens. Is that a skill? Somebody can build toward her that factory
setting. No, that's a skill. Like, I mean, the factory settings can can forecast, how much work it's going to take to get there.
But it's definitely a skill set. It's definitely like I think I feel like I'm working toward it. I feel like I'm further than I was 10 years ago. Hopefully out, you know, I feel like my kids have it so much. There's so much closer than I am because Steve and I have been trying to be very intentional about not using shame to parent about.
You know, really trying to make some different decisions and how I think how we were parented parents doing total best. They can they could with us, but I think I think it's absolutely
Possible to for anyone to get there. I mean, and one of the big parts and I've heard you talk about this with other people. You've got to constantly check the narratives. Like we believe what we tell ourselves about ourselves.
You know, and so if someone couldn't love, you didn't have the capacity or didn't want to love you. It doesn't make you unlovable because people didn't see value in what you produce your create doesn't make you less valuable. Like, we have to really challenge the narratives that we have bought into and we built our lives around them. So I think if we can challenge The Narrative and learn how to be uncomfortable in Emotion. I think almost anything as a is possible.
Here's the final question. It's and maybe, maybe we'll have more time after this. We'll see. But I was told going into this that you didn't have much of a meditation practice. And so we always on this show, start with, hey, how'd you get it to meditation, but I didn't do that with you because somehow I've been led to believe that you don't meditate. But then, in our little chitchat, before we started rolling, you told me that you might so, say more about that, if you
will, I don't know, does it have to look a certain way? No.
Okay. So here's the thing that I have to do something quiet.
Alone and rhythmic on a daily basis or I would probably
die. What do you mean by
rhythmic? Like I'm a swimmer. Okay. So like so like I just you know, I because I breathe every third stroke and so it's got to be really quiet. It's got to be the way I think about it and I'm pretty. I'm a pretty spiritual person which also happened during that kind of breakdown stuff. I mean, I always I was kind of
Being raised Catholic or pistol pay and now, but at a pretty healthy spiritual practice, so I always think about what you mean prayer. Both, I think because praying to me is talking and then meditation to me is listening. And so I try to listen in a quiet rhythmic space.
So isn't that meditation?
So I'll give you a kind of a technical answer. Yeah, which is that I think it's great. Mmm, when I talk about meditation, I'm talking about mindfulness meditation and mindfulness actually has a specific meaning that I don't know because I really literally don't know because I'm not in your mind, as you swim or whatever it is you're doing in these times. Which by the way, I think can have many, many, many benefits, cardiovascular, psychologically exercise can
An but mindfulness is kind of a meta awareness. It's neat knowing that you know or sometimes is sometimes people will say we are classified as a species as Homo sapiens sapiens. So the one who thinks and knows he or she thinks and so mindfulness is the ability to see clearly that you have a mind and our thinking and you have this voice in your head that yammering at you all the time. And the mindful just takes you out of that traffic. It allows you to see.
Those processes and so that you're not owned by
it. Oh, yeah, I definitely meditate. Okay. So
yeah, it mindfulness meditation. You are systematically trying to focus on one thing could be swimming. It could be your breath and then every time you get distracted you you start again and what that the skill that develops over time is is mindfulness, which is an ability not to be owned by whatever. Neurotic Obsession, just flips through your brain,
that definitely do that II. Definitely do that. Like, as if
A thing. If anything if anything comes into my mind other than the flow of the water over me, then I start over again. Yeah, so that's yeah, I don't, I'm not as good as a like I've tried. Walking meditation before, I'm not interesting like I do like to sit still but I'm working on the meditation thing but I think swimming is very meditative for me. It's like a saw, it's like a decompression chamber. Like you can't hear anything. You can't see anything.
It's just you just breathing but I it's definitely the meta thinking it's an awareness of my thinking. Does that make
sense? Yes, absolutely. And it's interesting. I'm glad I asked a person stepped gingerly when you said that because often when people say to me running is my meditation or swimming is my meditation. I say actually, I think running and swimming are or whatever yarn bombing. Whatever it is. You do is great. But it lets you do it in a specific way. It's probably not meditation the way I Define it, but actually,
Ali. The parenthetical phrase there, unless you do it in a specific way. I think you are doing it in the specific way that would make would qualify it as mindfulness
meditation. I think, as mindfulness meditation even because I separate that swimming from, when I'm like, doing timed 50s or something like that, like, this is really, this is really about
It's a mental practice for me. Yeah, for sure. So I think I do that very much in the
water. All right, I'm going to I actually have a few minutes to ask this one last question. I want to shoot. We talk a lot about vulnerability as it pertains to. Sort of professional relationships. We would get at em, parenting a little bit, but we didn't really get into romantic relationships. So it, our remaining moments here. What would that look like? Is it you use the phrase in your Netflix special? I believe the willingness to say. I love you first.
Yeah, but is that what you're talking
about?
I think it's more than that. I think it's like, you know, I just picture. Almost every couple. I Know Myself included that like we go through the day, so armored get stuff done, you know, kick ass. Don't let anyone see anything that, you know, just do it. And then like, we, you know, I can we climb in bed at night, wearing these big suits of armor, you know, to people that it's like so hard just to be seen, I think, you know,
Having a partner that sees you and that, you know, to see and to be seen is the great human need, right? And I think to not be armored with the people that we love to be able to say. I'm really afraid about this or this really hurt today or but we don't do that. We go home and we keep it on even with our partners, you know, or I'm really scared about what we're hearing about little Sammy or you know, like
To be able to sink into each other.
As a place of safety and not one more place where we have to prove and perfect and please and worry about what people think. I mean, I think that's the goal. I think it is and I think I do think saying I love you first. I do think say thinking, you know, I'm afraid like it was interesting because I mean, this is a great example.
I so it is another piece of feedback I've received in my life. Is that instead of getting scared? I can become scary. Like, yeah,
laughing because it feels like something I would
do. Yeah, I can get like, like, if I'm scared, I can get pretty Fierce about staff, but I was talking with Steve before I came to New York and we were riding the car, and he's like, what is the anxiety about Netflix? He's like, I've watched it. You know, I give you real honest feedback. He's like, I think you crushed it.
You know, and I think to be able to go up there and do that and it was meaningful. I think it could change people's lives and important ways and a zag now just, I don't know. I just hate this part. I hate getting out in the public now and I'm scared. And he's like, well, what are you scared of and I sad?
Like I didn't want to say it because I knew what it was. I didn't want to say it and he's like I'm gonna pull over as I don't you. Dare pull over. I don't make eye contact with me. I think don't make eye contact with me and he's like, I'm a ton of to have a pullover and then I'm a stare at you and he's on like, oh my God, you're so mean. It sounds like if you keep driving, I'll tell you. And I was like, it has his, as I could do, look at me and don't see anything. After I say it. I'm a bit pissed. He's like, okay, and I said, I think
It's the anticipatory anxiety of knowing the cheap seat, criticism is coming like the first couple days. Something comes out. It's the people who love your work and they're like, thank you. This is great, really enjoyed it. But then as it goes as it is it radiates out like the pebble in the pond then people are alike, you know Screw you? Do, you know, like yeah those people come. And I said, so
It's like it's like when you were 10, and you know, your brother is going to frog you in the arm, but you don't know when it's coming and as Ike and he's like, I am pulling over and I was like, oh damn it. And so he's like that's coming and he's like, you know, that's coming because you put your well, you put your work out in the world for a long time and you're super brave, but you know, it's coming and you can choose not to read it and I'll be
And it's going to be okay and it was worth it. You know, I get teary-eyed saying it like,
That's vulnerable, you know, as opposed to just get in the car and be like, hey, yeah, Lock and Load. Let's go. Like like to really let someone see what scares you or like which with kids. Like, I remember one time my daughter coming home and she just started high school and she said I'm running, you know, she's running for class president of her freshman class and she came home, one day and we were sitting at dinner and we'd go around after Grace. And we say what? We're great.
For, and she goes, I'm really grateful for y'all and I said and I said, thanks Al and we were getting ready to go to her brother and she goes because I can tell you how bad I really want this and I'm not going to win. I know I'm not going to win and I said, yeah, you may not win, you may, but you may not. And I said, but when you let people know how bad you want something that, you know, you may not get
You've already won like that's brave because most of us are like, I don't care. I don't really care. I'm just doing it for the fun of it. Let's see what happens. And then you go cry in your room alone. And then you dry your tears and come out like a badass, you know, like I didn't really care about it. But to let people know you care about things. Like that's vulnerable.
It sounds like he's vulnerable both sides, you and Steven the car, both vulnerable because he gave you, honest, clear, feedback, cuddly, and same with you. And Ellen, she was vulnerable and admitting how she felt and you were vulnerable and not trying to make
Problem, go away and switch the light on for you. Sat with her in in
the fear. And I think it's I think one of the biggest barriers to raising vulnerable courageous kids. If I think about my own upbringing, is our parents who put too much emphasis on
cool.
Like cool as a straitjacket like like Steven, I'll be dancing around the kitchen or socks or something. And my son who's getting married 14. I'll be like, oh my God stop. And when we listening to some very popular song Like Old Town Road or something and show that no this is this is burnt in my vision forever now and we'll stop and get really serious and be like, hey, look, we won't ever do that in front of your friends. We won't embarrass you, you don't have to dance with us. But in this house awkward silly uncool.
Always rules. Yeah, we have a place to do
that. Steve was right? You did a great job at your Netflix special. Thank you, and I do recommend unreservedly that people watch it. So
that means a lot. Thank you.
It's heartfelt wholehearted. Even, thank you very much. Really? Appreciate it. You were, it was great to meet you. I could I could talk to you for five hours. Me too. Maybe we'll do it again. I would love that. Thank you.
Thanks again to Brunei, that conversation has really stuck with me. I've gone back to it many times. So I really appreciate her coming on after having listened to Brunei. You might feel ready to put some of her ideas to work in your own life. So let me mention again, our upcoming New Year's meditation challenge. It starts Monday, January 4th. You can meditate alongside thousands of other people. You can even invite your friends and track their progress as mentioned. At the top of the show. We're going to have a special focus on self compassion and self-love.
Which research suggests can be much more effective than shame and self-loathing when you're trying to boot up a new healthy habit or break an unhealthy one. So, download the 10% happier app right now and sign up big. Thanks, as always to the team who work so hard to make this show. A reality Samuel. John's is our senior producer, DJ Kashmir is our producer. Jewels Dodson is our AP. Our sound designer is Matt, Boynton of ultraviolet. Audio. Maria were tell is our production coordinator. We get an enormous amount.
Amount of insight and input from our tph colleagues such as Jin poignant NATO, be Ben Rubin and Liz Levin. And of course, as always a big thank you to my ABC News comrades. Ryan Kesler and Josh Cohan will see you all on Wednesday for an episode with Evelyn. AAA. This is an episode that genuinely and this is an overused phrase. I know, but happens to be true. In this case. Genuinely changed. My life. Evelyn is the co-creator of intuitive eating, which has revolutionized.
Sized my often, fraught relationship to food. So we'll see you on Wednesday with that.
