Welcome to the Megyn Kelly, show your home for open honest and provocative conversations.
Hey everyone. I'm Meghan Kelly. Welcome to the Megyn Kelly show as Ukraine fights for its very existence and President Biden prepares for the biggest speech of his career. We are witnessing and historic story of Vladimir Putin versus The Free World with Mother Russia, even turning against him in ways. We've rarely seen before it comes. As horrifying, images emerge out of Ukraine. This is what war in Europe. Looks like in 2022. And for those listening, you can see it on you.
And our Channel later the video here, capturing the moment a rocket destroyed, a government building and Ukraine's, second largest city, smoke and debris. Flying into the air vaporizing, a large beautiful building satellite images from the US company. Max, our Technologies showing a Russian military Convoy zeroing in on the Ukrainian capital of Kiev the Convoy more than forty miles long, made up of armored vehicles, tanks and artillery.
Hillary with serious questions about the about whether the ukrainians can withstand that, but perhaps nothing is more shocking than the stories of the youngest victims of this war earlier today. Ukraine's president zalenski, appealing to all of humanity in remarks to the European Parliament.
We have a desire to see how children alive. I think it's a fair one. Yesterday, 16 children were killed.
Again, and again, President Putin is going to say that is some kind of operation and we're Heating and Military infrastructure. Where our children, what kind of military Factories do they work? At what tanks? Are they going with or launching cruise missiles? He killed 16. People just yesterday
among the victims. A beautiful school girl named Paulina. She and her parents were shot dead.
Trying to leave Kiev by car. Look at her face, her brother and sister are currently in intensive care. Britain's, the Sun newspaper asking Putin. How many children must die and then there's this heartbreaking image from the times. A paramedic trying in vain to save a six-year-old girl, who had been injured in a rocket attack. You can see the anguish on the face of the man. Next to this child, his body completely covered in blood. The Daily Mirror, summing It Up This Way. Putin is a coward who kills little
And slippers and unicorn pajamas. My next guest has sounded alarm Bells about Vladimir Putin for more than a decade. He is one of the most famous Russians today, Garry Kasparov captivated the world as a chess champion. I mean in a class of one and has gone on to use his voice to fight for democracy and human rights. Gary. Welcome. So great to have you here on a day like this.
Thank you inviting me.
So help us understand.
What Putin, what his game must be at this point, you know, the speculation about whether he would go into Ukraine or not is done. We've seen him do it and with his 40 mile, long Convoy. It's only going to get worse from here. What do you think his end goal is? At this point.
What we are seeing now is the last chapter of Putin's war in Ukraine and even the larger war on democracy and on our civilization and it hasn't started.
Recently, it's it's as long as Putin is writing in Russia. Let's not forget Putin, claimed in early days of his rule, Russia that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century. And at one point, he believed that it was his Messianic wall to restore it. And then he went even further 15 years ago in February 2007, in Munich at security.
Force in Europe, he lay down his vision for the future of Europe and the world speaking about so-called spheres of influence, which meant in his language, that we had to go back to the 19th century world were big guys. Big countries were in the position to dictate to spot are smaller and weaker neighbors, how to run their domestic and Foreign Affairs. And Putin was not just talking. He backed his words by his actions.
In 2008, he attacked the Republic of Georgia and next, important territory, and the Free World swallow it, he was very active in a world stage, supporting every dictator that that who was in danger. He we was people ate instrumental role in Saving Bashar al-assad in 2013 using Russian Air Force to carpet-bomb Aleppo and other rebel strongholds in Syria. In 2014. He decided that
He was strong enough to attack, Ukraine, directly and annexed Crimea and incited violence in the eastern. Ukraine that led to a short war and, and part of Ukrainian territory had been de facto annexed as well though. He failed with the main objective to create so-called new Russia, cutting Ukraine in pieces and creating an unbroken line of
Territories ranging from lugansk to edessa and he also was never shy of buying favors from for Western politicians and business people and personalities. And of course, assassinating, his political opponents, both inside Russia and outside of Russia, and the problem is that he never paid for these crimes and see no consequences for his actions. He eventually believe.
It was time for him to move against Ukraine, both decisive. He because he never recognized Ukraine as independent state Russian propaganda. For the last eight years had been diminishing Ukraine as the failed state. That was just waiting for Russia to come in and restore what they call historical Justice. And we all know he has been preparing his invasion of Ukraine in plain sight. It was
That is attack from three directions from north south and east against Ukraine week ago was a surprise attack. He even brought his Pacific Fleet to the Black Sea. And again, the Free World wasn't silent, but nobody or very few people took him. Seriously. I've been saying for many years that while Putin was our problem Russia, at one point as every dictator, he would be everybody's problem. And now what we see and let's not deceive ourselves.
Selves, this is already World War 3 and this is not just a war against Ukraine. Vladimir. Putin is attacking the very foundation of the world. We used to live since World War Two, And if you succeed in Ukraine, all bets are off. And for those who think that we can escape confrontation with Putin, look read, history, books, and that's why I think that the measures that are being taken, they are important but is still more can be done. But the most tragic, you know, Meghan portion of these sanctions eight years.
Go even six months ago. Could have saved thousands and thousands of wives if Putin believe that the world would act but unfortunately, it was a failure after failure. And now we're dealing with mad dictator and and of Russian army is shifted from so-called Liberation Mission as the it was originally proclaimed to a total dissemination of Ukrainian cities. Because Putin is
Is is absolutely crazy since its original plan of taking over key for three days, and installing puppet government, and going back to negotiating table with with America and Europe. This plan, miserably failed.
There's so much Brilliance in there. I mean, so many good points. Let me start with one of the last ones. Do you believe he's a Madman now, do you believe he's lost his own mental faculties in a way that we haven't seen prior to
right now.
Absolutely. Look, he's in power for 22 years. It's a long time. Even for the most intelligent person with the noblest intentions, that could be very damaging and Putin was not one of this kind of guys. So he's education came from the streets of Leningrad and from KGB school. And for the last few years he has been
In isolated, as every dictator. He is relying on a very small ever-shrinking in a circle. We know that he doesn't trust internet and open sources, which means he relies on the information, brought to him by this in a circle and his vision of the world is outdated. And also we know that Putin believes. It's not I'm saying I'm just simply no clothing what he has been. He has been saying for four years. He believes that violence is it's um, it's a
Sasori tool to rule whether his own subjects or imposing his will, to other countries. That's what I want. We should not be surprised that his favorite historical, characters, or Joseph Stalin and Ivan the Terrible. That's the, that's the way he sees himself. A man above the law, a man who is the law. And now, he thinks that, you know, he can do whatever because he feels that with, with one finger.
I'm pushing the red button. He can destroy the entire world. He said it already. If we have a war, it's about a year ago. They all will die like dogs and we will go to heaven. It's just it shows the the mental instability of this person. And I have been again saying it all along that. Forget about Putin. It's not about him. It's about sending message to people around him, those who haven't lost their mind, and value their lives, and their well-being, and
Only. Now, I think the, the Free World came to the conclusion that we are dealing with a Madman. Imagine a double Hitler in, in Bunker, in Berlin, in Germany in Berlin bunker in 1945. Imagine if he had it at this red button, do you have any doubts that you would push it,
you know, some of the earlier things you mentioned. I'm not excusing them. Let me make that clear, but you could understand what Putin might be thinking, right? Then in the 2004 14.
Ian, there was a pro-russian leader of Ukraine who got pushed out. And then we was replaced with a pro-western leader, and Putin didn't want that. He didn't want Ukraine getting closer to the west and looking more democratic and less like, you know, an offshoot of Russia. And okay, so that's how we got Crimea, right? You can sort of look at the end. It sort of made not sense. But if you can see the reasoning that he was following, this one seems almost out of the blue. Gary is like, Ukrainian.
mean, wasn't about to join NATO. Ukraine was slowly inching more toward the west and Europe, but there wasn't, what was the Catalyst? What? Why now? Why why did he choose suddenly to invade a sovereign country? You know, there's a lot of countries that used to be part of the USSR that are fading away that are getting closer to the West. Why.
Now?
Donald so many countries. Actually, this is the three Baltic Nations already, germinated. Thanks got there in NATO because otherwise, I think you have no doubts that Russian tanks on the rolling in the streets of Thailand Vilnius. And Riga in these three Baltic Nations, Republic of Georgia, and the former president pinkel Saakashvili was trying to move Westward and it was attacked in 2008. And next was Ukraine, but I have to say that you will. You ask the wrong question.
You asked three times y dictators never asked why? It's always, why not, why not? Ukraine was a threat to put them through the Russia because it's like, you know, Arab Spring and a domino effect independent Sovereign Democratic. Prosperous. Ukraine is sending a message to Russian people because we close instead it is I don't come over and I don't want to repeat Putin's Putin's.
False point that where the same the same people, but with we close, we had enough in of common history that would have considered many more cities, but still close. The language is close the, the dictum cultural similarities religious, but for Russian people, seeing ukrainians changing their lifestyle and moving to the West, that could be a big, big problem for Putin. So that's why he always wanted Ukraine to be subdued and eventually taken.
So you failed to impose his will through normal process through political process. He's a stooge Viktor. Yanukovich was removed from Power by the popular. Unrest in 2014 actually was a revolution but the problem actually between Russia and Ukraine started early because unlike Russia, Ukraine had a peaceful transition of power, all the way back in 1994. I think that was a turning point actually where unfortunately, the way
Ways of Russia and Ukraine. We just didn't we we moved in different directions in 1994 first president, of Independent, Ukraine, Leonid. Kravchuk lost elections to to the contender, then it kuchma and he walked away. So ukrainians already more than one generation of Ukraine as almost two generations of Ukraine as they grew up in a country, where the power its belongs to people, they know that if the president acts against the interest they can
We elect him or they can rise against against oppressive measures by the government and and defend their dignity, and their rights in Russia. It's very different. The Fragile democracy under Boris. Yeltsin, has been replaced by brutal KGB dictatorship and Putin always wanted Ukraine to join, not just Russia, but to become part of his newly built KGB, man.
I feel like Empire. So that's why his attack on Ukraine was in the books. The question was, you know what it happened.
Let's say, let's say he succeeds. How are we define success in this military in Denver? And he forces a, he's in stablish, Has a puppet government in Ukraine, the hearts and minds of the Ukrainian people. He's never going to rule those. I mean, what does it look like? What is the endgame look
like?
He doesn't care. This is. That's what do you mean? It's the minds and hearts of your grades, of course them fight and I don't believe you'll succeed. Ukraine is a big country. It's a big territory, 44 million people there. Will you always can find, you know, a few hundred thousand traitors here and there. But it seems that nation is United even people in east or west, you know, they sometimes separated by there are some religious differences or they are in the East, the most of them speak Russian.
And by the way, Russian was language, was kept as well as the normal working language in Ukraine. Most of Ukraine Talent including television was actually a conducting their problems in Russian, but Putin doesn't think that far. So again, his goal was simple, you know, destroy Ukrainian sovereignty. Blood in resilience key is his personal enemy and when Putin talked about decapitating Ukrainian government, I don't think it was just a political term. So it is seeing, you know, Ukraine as an obstacle in his way and
She wants to destroyed and I think he was shocked by the unified response from the Free World. All of a sudden, he lost almost all, if not all support that he has been building over two decades, because we have to give them credit for 20 years. He build the most sophisticated network of agents and lobbyists working throughout the entire free world and included former Prime. Minister's former Minister of Foreign Affairs, not only politicians but captains of business are famous.
As personalities, luminaries the Russian money. Infiltrated every layer of Western Society, political Financial, social cultural Sport, and all of a sudden it's all gone bust. I think his truck now, and that's why he's shifting from this. What I call Liberation Mission following the Russian propaganda language to, to indiscriminate attacks on Ukrainian civilians. He is mad and Ukraine.
Ukrainians people now feeling the horrors of his wrath because now Russian troops are shelling civilians. He cannot take over P for harkov, and he wants to destroy the cities to turn them into the
rubbles. Let's talk about the European response for a moment because it has been unified. It's been shockingly, unified Europe and Beyond. And, I mean, we talked about yesterday, how he actually managed to get Switzerland off of the neutral position, and joining in the sanctions. Switzerland, not to mention Sweden and many
Others and I want to ask you, in particular about Germany. I know you've been very critical about Germany. Essentially bending the knee to Putin for quite some time now. And telegraphing, all the wrong messages, and I wonder if what you've seen from Germany yesterday. Now pledging to spend two percent of its Budget on its military. Upping the canceling permanently, the Nord stream to pipeline from Russia, which is a very big deal and stepping in and sending arms to Ukraine.
You think is going on there. But before you answer that, can I just show you this moment? This is out of the UN Human Rights Council. As of Russian foreign minister, Sergei lavrov, spoke it's video and he so he spoke and there was a walk out. There was a mass walkout. Just when he got up. I mean, via video link and spoke with from all these countries Representatives, who would not even hear it. So spend a minute on the what appears to be a very unified. Certainly Europe and Beyond World. Perhaps,
Perhaps mmm, China questionable, obviously places like Belarus not so much and their response and Germany in particular.
Yeah, it's a very important moment because it shows solidarity and isolation. Political isolation is a very important element of fighting Putin back. I think that it's a while. You step was important, symbolic step, but more can and must be done. One of the measures. I've been asking from from day one was recalling ambassadors from from Moscow and reducing diplomatic missions to bare minimum. That's important again to continue this policy of I isolation.
And by the way, when we spot him speaking about isolation, even China has a very tepid reaction to put his aggression. It really restated, its support for Ukraine's. Territorial integrity and sovereignty. Again, I'm not sure, you know, we have to, we can trust China, because Chinese watching Putin's aggression, very closely because they have Taiwan in mind, but it's a tricky game. So China, Billy's Taiwan is part of China. So I think this China doesn't want you to go full monty.
Supporting Putin even Kazakhstan. They are the dictatorship that was saved by Putin are just two months ago demonstrated its its distance from from Putin's aggression, very aloof and even the top provider in a TV provider cut Russian channels from kazakhs are so Putin is increasingly isolated. There's the you can rely on support of sad Maduro. Cubans, Nicaragua
When Iran, not not, not wholeheartedly. So that's unique woman. That's unique moment of isolation. And you pointed out Germany. Absolutely. It's this is, this is a key. The German Germans Behavior over the last 20 years, shifted Europe in the wrong direction because Germany is unofficial leader, of Europe and Angela Merkel government that succeeded Gerhard. Schroeder, who is still, by the way, working for Putin is on Putin's payroll. He hasn't cried yet.
Yet, as far as I know, Angela Merkel government used. Very aggressive rhetoric sometime, belligerent rhetoric, condemning Putin's actions, but never did anything to hurt Putin's commercial interest. Yes, Germany. Supported sanctions after annexation of Crimea, but at the same time, doubled the amount of Russian gas, it has been buying and of course in this despite all the protests German politicians have been fully supportive of the Nord stream to, that's a pass.
Little gas pipeline that was important for Putin to to secure as he thought the gas supply to Europe after his attack on Ukraine. It's probably not a coincidence that he decided to attack Ukraine, when the downstream to was ready to to receive Russian gas because that's that's that was an alternative that he wanted to build. And German politicians were very, very reluctant. I would say, would even aggressive speaking to people like myself and and deflecting criticism about
Out political aspect of North stream saying it's all about business. And even the on the next day of Putin's attack on Ukraine. Germany still refused to sell weapons to Ukraine and try to mediate. But what we saw public opinion has changed and that's what means, you know, that's that means democracy is working all of a sudden people that were were not ready to Rally behind Ukraine. They recognized that, it's something that we can no longer tolerate.
German government immediately shifted and I have to give credit to to chance to German Chancellor. Otto Schultz is looked like a bureaucrat in the gray suit somebody who's it was missing the Charisma of Angela Merkel or girlfriend Schroeder or Helmut Kohl but he acted decisively and he changed not that your own policy last 20 years. We can say that he shifted German policy that has that a goes all the way back from 1969. So goes politic in started by
Social Democratic Chancellor, Willy, Brandt, and it immediately like a changed European position. So, and I'm obviously I'm astonished by not just by European response. But the fact is that the European Union, the union of 27 countries, came up with a more decisive sanctions against Russia than the United States. We have been searing it for so long that America prepared, the package devastating sanctions, you know, it's unheard.
It would ruin Russian economy. Yes, I'm Eric. Is doing it. But if you look at the scorecard, America is still adding a lagging behind its leading from behind. If we use this Infamous phrase and actually, we're working now on the new new website, you know, just to have the scorecard. It's fight for Ukraine.com that will be alive by the end of today. So fight for for like a number Ukraine, and we want to show as every country and every International Institution,
Responded to Russian aggression with sanctions and military supply of Ukraine.
That's great fight for the numeral, for Ukraine.com., Hopefully live by the end of the day, will definitely be checking that out. All right, Gary staying, with us past this break. We're going to squeeze in a quick commercial and up. Next, we're going to discuss the power of zalenski whose words have even brought professional interpreters to tears, repeatedly, that's next.
The powerful appeals for help from Ukrainian president zalenski, have touched hearts and Minds across the world. Even bringing veteran, interpreters to tears. Never heard anything like it. Take a listen here. As one is overcome with emotion as length as the lenski spoke to the European Parliament earlier today.
Can you imagine this morning to cruise missiles? Hit this Freedom Square?
Dozens of killed once. This is the price of freedom.
We're fighting.
Just for our land and for our freedom, despite the fact that all large cities of our country are now blocked.
The parliament giving that speech a standing ovation. Watch this.
Just a few days ago, as a Lansky explained that Vladimir Putin was on a path of evil Ukrainian translating on German TV. Could not go on the words here are not in English, but they don't need to be listen. Okay, now has nine won't be a person. Can scan all my
See apatite again, family,
Slava course, the moon National sold that floral Grange. You should hear
the words. I got her ukrainians. We know exactly what we are defending. We will definitely win glory to each of our soldiers, glory to Ukraine. I'm joined once again by Russian pro-democracy activist and former World chess champion, Garry, Kasparov. Gary, at some point. You've got to come back and we've got to talk about your history and your hole.
Profile because it's fascinating. Just for those who needed a quick update, born in the Soviet Union in 1963. Became the under-18 chess champion of the USSR at the age of 12, the under and the world under 20 champion at the age of 17. International Fame. At the age of 22 is the youngest World chess champion in history, back in 1985 a title. You defended five times. You broke Bobby, Fischer's rating record in 1990 and your own Peak rating record, remained Unbroken.
Can all the way through 2013. You since, fled, the Soviet Union, or the Russia in Moscow, and have become a target of President Putin, who wanted to arrest you and perhaps more, and have been pushing for democracy there in a broad ever since and been a Fearless advocate for reforms and slow. They have been to come. So one of the things that I've heard you talk about it, as well is America.
And I've heard you just really smart observations about how those who those young kids today who think America is. They compare it to a third world country. They talk about us being oppressive about how, you know, there's we have no civil rights in this country and we don't understand, you know, the way to treat people and do Advanced humanity and you've basically said, they don't know what they're talking about, you know, try living in some countries around the world and then come back and tell us that America is not the leader of the Free World. It's not
Act. But it certainly is the leader when it comes to freedom and there's a reason so many people want to come here. So understanding that, that's been our role. What do you think our role here? Should be. What, what should America be doing right now? That it's
not
Yeah, it was so emotional mom and she showed. And every time I hear this, I this testimonies and this motion reaction even from The Interpreter. So I feel ashamed that I'm Russian. So do I always opposed by the recruiting a dictatorship? And I've been warning about his horse but it's we all do well know who bear the responsibilities that this this this this monster is ruining our country and it's threatening, not only Ukraine, but the whole world with
Total Destruction as for America.
Sometimes, I'm frustrated annoyed, you know, pick up the right word. When I see these Young Americans, another Young Americans. It's just some Americans totally ignorant about the rest of the world. Oh, just calling America is a country with no real democracy. And looking in American past. I know denigrating, American history and democracy and in protesting against Injustice, has yet not know countries. Perfect. American democracy is not perfect, but
Is no perfection in the universe is nothing is even close 1%. But you always should look at the relative strengths and weaknesses and American democracy today, and, and America as the country is a Force for good. As it was 50 years ago when people like me who were born and raised in the Soviet Union. On the other side of Iron, Curtain always looked at America as a Beacon of Hope. And today we have millions tens of millions, hundreds of millions of people still looking at America is
Sway, yes, we know that America is trying to improve and America is looking at at its past and and being very highly critical. But we we never had the same kind of Freedom today. Millions, maybe even billions of people in the world because according to Freedom House, you know, it's two third of the world population living on three countries. So people would be dying for
The portion of freedoms that Americans always take for granted and what is happening now, in Ukraine is a demonstration that people willing to Die For Freedom. And, and, and, and in America, you have so many opportunities to advance the cause of freedom, but you have to fight for your own democracy, but to fight for democracy and to regain American leadership in the world, you must respect your democracy, you must recognize the role of America. And it's tragic that on the both sides of political Spectrum.
The extremes on the right or left for different reasons, they challenged this American role and they do not understand that. Attacking America's leadership role in the world and finding excuses for facts, terrorists and and dictators on the glob it day. They are.
Chopping pieces for American democracy. Because if you are not ready to defend democracy worldwide in 21st century, it's globalization, which means, you know, we know, instantly what's happening in Ukraine, in Indonesia, in Argentina all of the world. And if we are not ready to fight for democracy, worldwide, we are endangering our democracy here in this country.
So what does that mean for us in Ukraine, you know, the American people are War weary. They don't have
a lot of trust in their generals, after the way Afghanistan, went news and merging of the Afghanistan papers about how we've been lied to by our leaders for. So, for so long about how that war was going, never mind the disastrous exit, never mind the disaster in Iraq, and I could go on. So, that's the mindset right now of most Americans, when it comes to, oh my God, we can't get involved in another War. Certainly, don't want to war with Russia and nuclear-armed Country. So, okay, we'll stick to the sanctions and we'll hope that they work and we'll try.
Be a part of this International Coalition not lead it, but be a part of it cracking down on Vladimir Putin and Russia, but what more should we be doing in
your view? Yeah. It's it's, um, an American concept, all the last 50 years or so leading from behind and I can remind you and our listeners that in the back in 1951, President. Harry Truman said, we cannot lead force of freedom from behind and
Without America reassuming is leadership role. The world is in problem. Right now. We see the Coalition of European nations led by Germany. And again, it's a very powerful message, but we still need America to participate aggressively in in the world because it's not a war of our choosing. But we are at War already Vladimir Putin. Again. Listen to you that or explicitly propaganda. He's attacking Ukraine, not just as Ukraine, but as an American puppet, he is
At war. Was that Mary Kay, he is at war with democracy and he believes that the wealth must accept his conditions, his ultimatum that he issued a few months ago after, by the way, after seeing President Biden at The Summit in last June, and then having these two conversations with him, just over Zoom, or whatever communication they used. He felt are obtained and emboldened to issue the ultimatum demanding.
The more or less, we can read it between the lines, the end of Nate, the capitulation of America and capitulation of the West, and giving kids, giving him full power to decide how to act in his spheres of influence. And and now he's trying to impose his will that's why he threatening new nuclear nuclear weapon to become a factor in
In this game because he knows as an experienced poker player that he has a very weak hand Russian. Potential force is no match to data. It cannot win a war even against Ukraine. They stuck so facing NATO on the battlefield is not an option for you. So he's trying to raise the stakes. And as you did before for him, it's a game of nerves. He expects America and Europe to Blink and then,
Then he wins. I think, if he takes over Ukraine, even with ukrainians refusing to accept his Rule. And that could be disastrous because he will not stop dictators. Never stop. They are stopped, and it's just a matter of time before. Putin will test American resolve on Nate on Native territory. And that's why I'm not comfortable hearing. President Biden repeating, we would not fight for Ukraine, but we would defend every inch of
Territorial NATO countries, it's all about Mobility or not. I don't think Putin believes because there was a meeting Summit. I mentioned in June and we heard that America lay down an ultimatum. They had, you know, they had a meeting, where B, looking put his eyes set. We would punish you for for your aggression against Ukraine. So it seems that Putin didn't believe him and that had to more conversations and then every Westerly to visit him. He didn't believe them, because they were so weak. Why do you think that
That Putin would believe Biden about what Biden talks about Estonia, Latvia or Poland. I think it's time to recognize we are at War and while I'm not advocating just, you know, immediately no intervention, but we should do more and isolation of Russia must be complete or Lombardo, gas embargo. Total isolation everywhere and stop every conversation with Russia. I also wonder if Americans are trying to bring Russia into the Iranian deal.
Because according to the Menace to many sources, Russia was a country where uranium uranium, enriched uranium had to be stockpiled bad because that means Russia is still at the table, cut all the ties green deal, uranium deal. Russia must become a pariah and that's the way to demonstrate the Russian people and two Russian Elite that America and Europe, a series so far. I still hear doubts and Witnesses and
Putin also is hearing them and that's why he will keep raising steaks.
My gosh. I could talk to you for two more hours and I would like to will you agree to come back soon and let's have a longer discussion.
I'm always available maybe and I just did. Oh, I think we are facing kiddo. The state's it's one of the turning points in history, Milestone. And it's what happens today may decide our lives for months years, maybe
decades. All right before you go.
Go give us the name of the website again. So people can check it
out. It's fight for Ukraine.com, or.org fight for number Ukraine, and it will be ready by the end of the
day. All right. We'll keep refreshing. Gary. Thank you. Thank you so much. We appreciate it.
Thank you so much for having me
extraordinary, man, right extraordinary man. He knows of what he speaks. Now tonight. We will be hearing from President Joe Biden. He's finally going to deliver the State of the Union Address months after he was supposed to, we
Fact what it's I guess it's not a an end to covid but he's definitely going to be taking some sort of a Victory lap. And what's he going to say about Ukraine? What kind of credit is he gonna watch what's happened there? Michael Knowles of the daily wire, joins us next.
Joining me now. Michael Knowles host of the Michael Knowles show for The Daily wire. Michael great to have you here in advance of the long-awaited State of the Union Address. And I said, at the top of the show, this is probably the most important address that Joe Biden will have given to the nation since he became president, given everything that's happening at home and abroad, you know, the navel gazers and Washington have been beating themselves up asking. Will he say the word inflation? Will he say the word?
Would you shut the hell up? Right? Like, shut, those like who gives a shit whether he says the word inflation or not. We know that we're dealing with record inflation. What's he going to do about inflation? Is the question and what I'm gathering from. What I'm reading is, he's basically just going to restyle all of his failed plans. Like BBB as the solution to inflation. So his plan is really just to spend more but he's going to recast BBB as inflation solution in the form of you know, taking care.
Care of eliminating barriers to well-paying, jobs, promoting Fair competition, helping families, and protecting the right to organize act and a bill. To raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour. Spend spend spend spend spend and that somehow is going to solve our inflation. No problems,
right? His I think that's an astute observation Megan. His policies have been so disastrous and so deeply unpopular that he couldn't even convince his own party.
To go along with his budget. He can't even get a budget passed. And so, his only option is to use that to some sort of Advantage. He'll say, well, you know, the reason things aren't perhaps as good as they could be right now is because I've been stymied in my plans which are so wonderful and so popular that not even Democrats want to support them. And then he'll hold out that carrot for the future. I mean, I don't think it is a hyper partisan exaggeration to say that everything, the man has touched has turned to Ash
In some cases literally. So, on foreign policy. Obviously the world has fallen apart because of specific decisions. He made in Afghanistan, with regard to Russia, the north stream to pipeline. Obviously, we're seeing that play out in Ukraine right now on the economy. It's gone to pot on in terms of inflation, in terms of energy, the list goes on and on and on. So his best bet for the State of the Union is to to look toward the future. He can Pump Up the new Supreme Court nominee, right? That's something that could seem
Possibly positive for him. He can talk about how he's a wartime president now, and how he's United. NATO. He's United NATO because of a dereliction of American leadership that that is basically left your of and they do on their own. So, so I guess in that way, it's sort of damning with faint praise, but he can make that that claim. And then you saw last night this last-ditch effort by the Democrats to do anything and that was them tilting at windmills. They passed a law.
To criminalize. Lynching lynching, which last time I checked is already illegal. It's been illegal for very long time. Hasn't been a problem in America for at least what 70 years now. And so, there are tilting at windmills and imaginary problems. Mean, while the world Burns.
They've got massive problems. I mean, the poles, we as a country have massive problems. But Joe Biden in the Democrats have massive problems. If you look at the latest polls, trying to pull it up here, it's 38 percent approval. That's his latest numbers. Just okay.
Here it is. Yeah, ABC news/washington, post poll released. Just this past Saturday. He's at a career low of 37 percent approval rating on his job performance. Overall, that includes a 30 percent approval rating amongst Independence 30. I mean, needless to say the Republicans can't stand him. He's got a 10% approval rating, amongst a Republicans, but 30% amongst approval approval. Most Independence does not spell re-election and it does not spell good things for
For the midterm elections either. He's not killing it with his own party, either. Even within the Democratic party, nearly a quarter, either disapprove or say four percent, say they are withholding judgment for those who are likely to vote. Their Sarah actually say they're certain to vote in November. There's a fifty four to forty one percent Gap with respect to who they would choose Republicans over Democrats. So he's got a lot of ground to make up tonight and in the next eight months.
I mean, I don't know where he
begins. Well, he has one great Advantage at least as as pertains to the Democratic nomination in 2020, 24, if he wants it, and that great Advantage is, he's no less popular than anyone else who could get the nomination, incredibly Kamala Harris is less popular than he is. The only person who's even close to him and his administration is Pete Buddha. Jayanti. Buddha judge has roughly the same approval rating. So I know that Democrats.
Rats keep trying to make Pete Buddha judge happen. Just like mean girls. Try to make fetch happen, but it's not going to happen. And so Biden is in in a relatively good position with regard to the Democrat Party. It reminds us to the Joe. Biden is not some singular evil. Actually, Joe Biden selling point in 2020 is that he's an empty suit. He's kind of nothing. He's just a return to the old establishment normal, the man wakes up in the morning, licks his index finger, puts it in the air and figures out which way the wind is blowing. So, as an
Our for the Democrat establishment. It means he's only going to be as popular or unpopular as the party broadly. And right now, the party is really, really unpopular, put some in a terrible position for 2024 and there's really no alternative to the the man in office right
now. You know, it's I think a lot of Republicans said, alright who voted for Biden. Instead of trump 2.0 said, okay. I'll take the empty suit, you know, over the flamethrower. I'll take the empty seat. At least I like small. Government least. You probably won't do. Much seems old doesn't seem
Aspire to be like a huge change agent. Let's go that way. Now. We know, of course, domestically he's got an entirely different route. And that's why in part. We have such huge inflation problems and the spending numbers are just out of control though. Now, he apparently tonight. He says he's going to work on the deficit. Okay? All right, sure, but with all these spending plans, but you see the dangers of an ebony, empty suit when you get to a foreign policy crisis, right? I mean, we just had Garry Kasparov talking about how we are leading from behind again, and that's in part. How we
Into this mess,
people forget that Joe Biden is responsible for this crisis in Ukraine, you know, I don't really think this is just a cheap partisan shot. We've been calling this out on the conservative side of the aisle for months. Now Joe Biden made very specific decisions that essentially rolled out the red carpet for Vladimir Putin to invade Ukraine. Notably. He took the the energy sanctions off of Russia. So Donald Trump love him or hate him.
The man was actually pretty tough on Russia. Contrary to what we were told by the
left hand, read a record was nice, but his behavior wasn't so nice.
Bingo. It's those policies and a lot of it hinges on this one. Issue of the Nord stream to pipeline. So Putin had been trying to build this oil pipeline so that he could get out of Ukraine. Sell his energy straight to Europe. Then there is no reason. He's taken away, all the leverage from Ukraine. He can invade he's he has said that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe.
Trophy of the 20th century. He believes that Ukraine has no right to exist as a Sovereign Nation. He is wanted to conquer it for a very long time. So a lot of the leverage that Ukraine had to remain a Sovereign Nation was this energy issue. What did Biden do? Biden? Lifted the sanctions on North Stream, True Biden. Gave it the go-ahead. These were there were bipartisan sanctions on it before. Biden comes into office, four days later. Putin starts, rebuilding the pipeline. So Biden takes all the pressure off of Vladimir Putin, then he literally invited.
Him to invade. Biden was asked, what will you do if Vladimir Putin invades Ukraine? And he says, well, as long as it's just a minor incursion, I suppose that would be just fine, but he better not go further as if to say, hey crocodile, only eat my little pinky, but you better not eat the whole hand don't you do it? Control your appetite? Of course, that's not going to happen. And so now biding in poses, these toothless sanctions on Russia, going after every Russian industry except for oil, except for energy, the only industry that actually matters in Russia.
So I guess Russian haberdashers are going to be in trouble. I guess the people who make those little dolls that stack one within the other. I guess they're not going to be able to sell their goods. But in terms of oil that actually enriches Putin and pays for the invasion that's going to be just fine. And so, what are you going to have? You're going to have the made the most significant disruption to the post-war political world order that we have seen. And that is going to be when, when Putin gobbles up, Ukraine, which at this point unfortunately seems inevitable and
It's so tragic about it. Is it could have been prevented with clearer leadership. Better policy that failure lies. It Joe Biden speed.
Hmm. Wow, just one of the many challenges. He's up against we're going to talk about covid and the lies were about to be told on his success. I'm sorry, but that's that's just the way it's going to be and whether people the American people will forget what's been done to us right? After this, don't go away.
Coming up. We have an exclusive interview with a Collegiate swim. Coach speaking out on Leah. Thomas. The transgender swimmer. Breaking records is the first time a division 1. Swim coach will be speaking on the record on camera about this will bring that to you shortly. But first back with me now, Michael Knowles the one and only host of the Michael Knowles show for The Daily wire. Okay. So here's the news on tonight and covid. According to political Michael.
The headline is Biden wants to declare a new chapter in the covid fight, but he's trigger shy. He's shy, he's afraid of what par for the course. He's expected to stopped. Well, short of the mission accomplished moment on covid, political reports that many members of his own party, would like to see stressing instead, the new to remain Vigilant remain, Vigilant against the virus and they say, if you're, if you're waiting to rip off your masks, this is not
That moment said, one of the people familiar with the Planning by the way, seventy percent of the country is now maskless. So I'm not sure how that can be the message tonight, but he's afraid which no one is surprised at a lot of people thought it was maybe Jill Biden. Really? Stoking his fears and making him so covid. Crazy. Who knows? Doc if he's me. Dr. Jill Biden doctor. I too am a doctor. I have a Juris doctor. I'd like you to refer to me that way. In fact, I forget to remind people in any event. The Democrats writ large are preparing to take a Victory lap on covid and have completely.
Shifted their messaging. It, you tell me whether it is an accident that the day before the State of the Union, the CDC finally comes out and says, okay, you can take the masks off in seventy percent of the country with Rochelle wilensky, finally apparently willing to relinquish her. Hold on us saying, we want to give people a break from things like mask wearing when levels are low and then have the ability to reach for them again. Should things get worse in the future?
Megan. How dare you question? The
Science. Don't you know that the science says that the state of the union is the cure to covid that it is the political science and the Medical Science follows the political science. This has always been at the heart of the covid issue. Is that people like Rochelle will Lansky people like the exalted? Dr. Fauci? Peace be upon Him, people like the the other public health bureaucrats. They have pretended that they are merely clinical scientific. Scholarly sorts of people, when in fact, they are.
Apparatchiks. They get their paychecks from the government. They make public policy for 300 million people more than 300 million people, because their policy affects people around the world. The Masks have always been a political symbol now, at least we're allowed to say that the masks are little more than facial decorations. Now, that Liana, when the CNN medical analyst has admitted that on TV, we previously were not allowed to say that that would have been dangerous misinformation. But at the heart of this, there has always been the capricious and arbitrary
Reuse of power that capricious use of power, the neurotic symbolism of the masks and all the rest of it. Had previously, served the Democrats political interest to give them a lot more power, particularly during 2020. And in the lead-up to that election, it's no longer serving their political interests. And so they're itching to get rid of it as we were discussing earlier. Joe. Biden does not have a single accomplishment, not a single one, for his entire presidency. Everything is gone to pot on foreign policy and domestic policy demand.
Even pass a budget. So he needs some sort of win. I think he's going to try to get that win tonight, in a maskless, sort of State of the Union. But as you can tell, they're vacillating, they go back and forth because the covid lockdown gave them so much power. They even when they were pushed at the extremes, the Supreme Court, for instance, shut down the OSHA private private employer mandate, but they took much more power on the health care workers on government contractors on the way. We live our lives and so they don't want to give it up.
Entirely and they're trying to have their cake and eat it too. And like most things this Administration does. It's just probably not going to work,
you know, today for the first time in two years. I sent my children off to school without masks. Two years. My eight-year-old son was in kindergarten when they had to mask up. Now, he's in second grade and I resent these people. I do not accept Rochelle. Well Lansky. And then have the ability to
For them again. Keep your hands off of me and keep them off of my child's face. No one's listening to you anymore. You are a political operative, you made that clear. So many times one that comes to mind. Is when you refuse to condemn Sonia Sotomayor, a left-leaning liberal, jurist on the Supreme Court for grossly overstating. The number of children who have been hospitalized who are in the hospital at the moment. Thanks to covid allowing the suggesting. It was 100,000 was an absurd, Miss statement, of fact and you
You refuse to even correct her because you're a partisan hack. So, but here's what's happening. Michael. Now, we're going into tonight in advance of the State of the Union, finally, even New York State, even California are getting rid of their indoor mask mandates, including in schools. I mean, it's like they've been holding on to that with their cold dead hands. The house has dropped its masking requirement. The White House has dropped. Its masking requirement all of this begins on
First day of the state of the union today, California, Oregon, Washington, all ending School mask mates, mandates. As of March, 12, trying to create this illusion that he can have a spike. The ball in the end, zone moment.
He is trying to unfortunately, though. Joe Biden has a habit of putting his foot in his mouth and he already admitted a few months ago, that there is no federal Solution on covid. You remember, he started his campaign. He said I'm not going to shut down the country. I'm going to shut down the virus and then,
What did he do? He shut down the country. And then he admitted that there was no way for him to shut down the virus. So I think that people have woken up to this. I don't think that the Democrats are exactly in control of this narrative anymore. You mention Megan. It's been two years, two long years of 15 days to slow the spread, which was initially to slow the spread then flatten the curve. Then find a cure then, take the jab, then stop the surge because there was a surge again because the jab didn't do everything. We were told to Jeb would do then slow down and then just keep
Going on. And on and on we were told that the vaccines would stop infection and transmission that turned out not to be true. Then the story changed to the vaccines are going to minimize hospitalization and death. Perhaps they did we were told that to would be sufficient then three then four. We were told we had to jab the kids even though the kids are at low risk of the virus. Now, we find out five to eleven year olds. Basically do not have much protection from the coronavirus vaccines. Then we were told, we had to mask to protect other people, then to protect ourselves and they've just
Totally lost the narrative. And so I think for them, it's probably best to cut their losses and move on to the next contrived crisis,
but people are angry. I am still angry over. What was done to my kids, never mind me. If I didn't have kids, I'd be sitting here mad about what happened to me and other people's kids, but that we chose the most vulnerable, the little ones and the Working Class People, you know, the waiters and waitresses of the world and people who couldn't have jacked and said you will wear them. In fact, they're still wearing them in so many places and and I do think that they're still going to be accountability for.
Yes, because like real damage was done it. There was a memo within the d-triple-c trying to warn, you know, sort of the, the Democrats about the pending election. Losses. They're likely to face. This one actually came from a research group that works for the Democrats and they said two-thirds of parents in Eighty percent of teachers. Say the pandemic caused learning loss. And voters are overwhelmingly more worried about learning loss than kids getting covid. Yes. You can't fix that.
With one Victory declaration or something, short thereof at a state of the union,
what you've really hit on here. Megan is the one calculation, the political calculation that I think the Democrats didn't make, which is that the, the entire covid narrative gave them a lot of political power. It allowed them to, to say that the Republicans are murderers and their killers, and their Traders, and their insurrectionists and they're probably racist to why I don't know, because that's what we always say. And that
Is the regular old Playbook and it was working just fine. What they didn't count on was the parents and particular be because the Democrats are in the pocket of the teacher Unions, that's a very important constituency. And so that kept the school shutdown. It kept the masks on the poor little kids, who had no need to wear them. It kept all of these things in place that were driving the parents crazy and parents cut across ideological groups, partisan groups, racial groups, Geographic groups, you saw that start to spring up in the election for the governor of Virginia where Glenn
Duncan beat Terry McAuliffe, he won that not because he was a regular old Chamber of Commerce Republican. He want it running on the parents movement. That parents movement shows no sign of stopping and it plays into what's going on with covid. It plays into the Democrats, radicalism on critical race theory on the Democrats radicalism on radical gender theories. This was at another side effect of the covid regime is that when you lock the students down, especially for remote learning all of a sudden, the parents are going to see what's going on in those schools.
Parents have not liked what they've seen and it is not bode. Well for
Democrats. Mmm-hmm. Yeah. So two things coming out. That people should keep in mind as they listen, to Joe Biden tonight. One. I mentioned, a d-triple-c research, which I'll get to in a second and then this other research Memo by impact research, sending out like the notice to Democrats on how to improve their standing months ahead of the midterm elections. And the latter focuses on covid, strategic thoughts were Democrats positioning themselves on covid-19 after nearly two years of the pandemic. Number one declared this.
Isis phase of covid. / push for feeling and acting more normal. Thanks to Democrats, were nowhere near where we were two years ago or even one year ago and they go on from there. But listen to this recognize that people are worn out and feeling real harm from the years-long restrictions and take their side. Six in ten Americans describe themselves as worn out by the pandemic. The more we talked about the threat of covid and owner ously, restrict people's lives because of it the more we turn them against us and show them that were out of touch with their daily realities. Stop talking about
Directions and the unknown future ahead when 99% of Americans can get back sedated. We cause more harm than we prevent with voters by going into our third year, talking about restrictions. This is all political. I don't know what they believe. I they've been so paranoid for two years. I believe they probably are still as paranoid as Joe Biden and Jill. Biden are. But they've just decided to totally change the messaging because they realize it's going to be a bloodbath in
November. Yes, my strategic advice for the Democrats would be too.
Duck and Cover because I think that's gonna be a bad as effective. In those inappropriate. It would be term given
everything going on in the world right now, right? That's right. You're too young to know this but back in the 70s when I was a kid, we were still in the middle of the Cold War. We had to do those reactions. Actually did Duck into cover drills where you have to Duck and Cover under your desk because there might be a nuclear bomb coming. Here are
the modern equivalent is the masks. That's right. There's a similar efficacy. I think.
That's exactly. That's exactly right. Okay, so that was
But to your point about critical race Theory and so on the other thing that came out was that d-triple-c memo? And here is the Democrats warning, their own party, that the voters in swing districts think the party is preachy judgmental and focused on culture wars and in particular what they said was OK, for example, Democrats recognizing here, that voters, do not support defunding the police and the response to their members is you should respond by reiterating.
Your support for law enforcement. Okay? Like today because you like yesterday and the day before and all the days where it mattered. You were on exactly the opposite side. Okay, then it goes on when facing an attack on the illegal immigration crisis, democrats should deny that. They support an open border or amnesty and instead talk about their efforts to keep the southern border, safe. Okay. So you're going to lie, like you just going to deny your what Your policies are and
People don't go ahead and investigate it and the same way they've been doing on CRT. Just it's not happening. And if you eject to CRT in the schools, which is just a catch-all term for this race essentialism that they're teaching, then you're racist and all they really want to do is teach history. And I've said before, it's not about CR2. I don't care what you call it. All I know is in my children's school. They wanted to teach that in every child were a white children learns. There is a future killer cop. You can call that whatever.
The hell you want? Stop teaching
it. Right? Right. The the Democrats on here are probably best served by as you say speaking out of both sides of their mouths and and just denying what they really believe. You saw this with Senator Casey jr. Bob Casey Junior who has said that he is personally pro-life, but politically he's pro-choice, which is a meaningless. Phrase was popularized by Mario Cuomo when he was governor of New York, and it's a way of
Going to hold both sides of the issue because unfortunately, the the actual views of Democrats right now are not popular, not not a single. One of them is particularly popular with the American people. And so instead of just lying about it or downplaying it or speaking out of both sides of their mouth. They've gotten a little prideful. They seem to think that they're firmly ensconced in power. They are the ruling Elite. They have the right to rule, and the people don't really have anything to say about it because the people are deplorable and irredeemable. What?
They have lost is the common sense. There was a brilliant leftist, theorists. I think a couple times ago on your show. Megan. I mentioned him. Antonio gramsci is probably the most important leftist, intellectual cultural thinker of the 20th century and gramsci pointed out that you can't win a political movement. If you lose the common sense for a long time, the Democrats position themselves as the party of the Common Sense. Those crazy Republicans. They wanted to deregulate everything and let billionaire. Robber. Barons get away with what they wanted.
We're going off on crazy religious Crusades, and they want to bomb the Middle East and wild boy wearing the crazy were the party of the working class in the common sense. Now, they've lost that they are now. They are the party of the global Elite. That doesn't care very much about America that that defunds the cops that gets rid of our borders that lets crime run wild that has all these crazy theories. The GOP has become much more the party of the working class of the ordinary American. That's a huge problem for Democrats. It is a result of their pride, but Pride goes before destruction and
A haughty spirit before a
fall, you know, that's a good point about the working class because what we're seeing now is they know it like the Democrats know, they're starting to lose the working-class vote to Republicans and not just while Trump is President, because by this president now and it's still happening. Just today there was a an article talking about it was in the New York Times actually not today, but within the past week, talking about this Texas border town where the all these Democrat officials are officially becoming Republicans, there are
This is a working class border Community fewer than 1000 people. And conservative Hispanics are not only realigning and presidential elections. They write, but also in contest, much closer to home the Democratic County Judge saying she will seek another term. As a republican, the county clerk the treasurer deciding, they too would depend abandon the Democratic party, which is long held sway in local elections and run as Republicans, but County. Justice of the Peace felt the urge to switch parties as well and on and on it goes because the working class
Gets it and Joe Biden going out there tonight and talking about strengthening the ability to unionize and demanding a fifteen dollar minimum wage, which I believe Working Class People understand ultimately hurts them. More than helps them because it costs jobs the few who can remain at said companies may have an increase in Pay, maybe maybe not, but it costs jobs. It will eliminate headcount at most of these firms. They get it and I think these paltry measures are not the solution for the Dems.
You know, immigration is a big issue as well. This is one area where Bernie Sanders has had a really good political gut his entire career and Bernie Sanders representing. Much more of that old left working class solidarity. He doesn't really Venture into the racial and sexual culture wars all that often. The Establishment Democrats have totally lost sight of that. You've got Elites in the Democratic party and many in the Republican party to who have pushed open, borders policies for a long time, the Democrats because they believe that it gives them an electoral.
Advantage, and it does, and the Republicans because they can get cheap labor that way, but the people who are lost here are the working class of all Races of all ethnic and National backgrounds for that matter. And I think they've woken up to that a little bit. So if the Democrats really want to to help the working class, they should probably stop flooding the country with cheap labor, that drives their wages down. I think also, you're going to see Republicans running on the fact that you during the brief Trump presidency. You saw real wage growth for the first time in decades.
It's and that is now gone away and you're seeing a return to the regular decline of wages and purchasing power. And especially with the skyrocketing bide inflation. That's a big problem. One thing that the elites tend to misunderstand is they think that ordinary working-class people who don't pay attention to too much to politics. They don't know anything about what's going on. They just they just need to sit down and learn what, what the Davos set is going to teach them. That's simply not the case that they have a much better sense of the cost.
Cost of eggs, the cost of gas that the way that wages are growing or stagnating or declining. And and they are going to hold them to account. If the polls are to be believed at all. It's going to be a tidal wave for Democrats in November and and they deserve it.
Yeah. And the working class voters, whatever their historical, or their ethnic or their racial background. They don't buy all this, you know, nonsense about that. We're getting taught their CRT and so on. But then then there are the people like Nicole, Hannah Jones.
The elitists within the Democratic party and she is taking a Michael at the media's coverage of Ukraine as racist. She says, if you basically, she's saying if you care, you're if you're particularly upset about what's happening in Ukraine, that's because of your racism. She is explaining that. Basically it's all. I'm trying to find the exact rule. The exact tweet that
Okay, these admissions of shocked that this is happening in a European country are a historical and also serve to justify the lack of sympathy for other. Invasions other occupations and other Refugee crises involving, people's not considered white and goes on, goes on to talk about the racialized analysis and language that the reporters need to look internally because racialized analyst and Analysis and language own covering.
Crane is obvious. She doesn't like people referring to Ukraine as a civilized country. You did that in a tweet. She's probably going to say you're a racist because that shows you only care about the ukrainians because they're white
because they're white and and Nicole Hammond Jones insists that we need to only focus on people with a history of slavery, which is ironic when we're talking about Slavic regions of the world. Because last I checked slavik is where we get the very word slave.
Every. But but to take her point on its face as you mentioned, Megan, I got in trouble for a shocking. Controversial, amazing tweet that I made that I did not think was controversial at all namely this war between Russia and Ukraine. Is the first major war of my lifetime between civilized Nations. There have been other Miner Wars. I think of the, I don't know, nagorno-karabakh conflict. Not a major war even Kosovo. I remember Kosovo quite well, but not,
Major war. When you look at the Civilized part of things left wing flattery aside, I don't think anyone believes that qaddafi's Libya was the most civilized place or or Assad's Syria. I don't think anyone is going to go honeymoon in Aleppo over Paris. The reason this matters, I'm not making any sort of value claim about the relative worth of libyans versus ukrainians. The reason it matters is because you're talking about a nuclear
Former superpower now. Conquering what had been a buffer State between Russia and Europe? World wars have started for much less than this and you've got Putin, who is committing? The Invasion is now actually threatening to use nuclear weapons. So the reason I mention this is because the global effects of this war, if it continues to escalate, as I think very stupidly, the Europeans are and are encouraging it to right now. The effects could be catastrophic.
And a far greater scale than the relatively minor Wars that we have seen for the past several decades.
Moreover. It's just not true to suggest that there is there's been no caring by the American people. When War breaks out in countries where people aren't all white. I mean, you could go down the list. I was at Fox News covering most of them while they were happening. And if so, this is another tweet that she sends out. What if I told you Europe is not a continent by definition but a geopolitical fiction to say
separate it from Asia. And so the alarm about a European or civilized or first world nation. Being invaded is wait for it. A dog whistle to tell us we should care because they are like us, why are we listening to her about anything? How can any self-respecting American University employ, this moron?
Well Megan, you know, the thing about dogs
Whistles. Is that the creature. Is that here? The dog, whistles. Well, they tend to be dogs. You notice the conservatives here and they are never the ones talking about these dog whistles. You say, hold on, if you're hearing that maybe that says more about you than it does about me. The irony, of course, with Nicole, Hannah Jones is that she is not a real historian. She is not a real scholar. She is a propagandist and a political activist actually that the main thing that she is known for is the 1619 project from The New York Times the
The thesis of which was complete
bunk and he's speaking of a historical. Who is she to be throwing that term around,
right? Her claim. Was that the American Revolution began to protect slavery in the colonies and it's just not true and even leftist academic historians pointed out. It's not true. She's never really apologized. The New York Times, sort of kind of tried to kind of retract it some months later, but they still spend out there
researching it. They took yes racer.
Exactly. And here and it's not going to work.
No one should take her seriously. And the only reason anyone really should care about what she says is because she's a very effective political activist who has transformed curricula around the country and totally misrepresented history and geopolitics. And unfortunately when people are ignorant of history in geopolitics, you find yourself in sad situations history, repeating itself as tragedy and
force and Joe, Biden at months ago is getting ready to award a
Ford school systems that taught her nonsense. Then they had to stick to back off of that once there was such backlash, but that's, you know, that that's how he sees her messaging tonight. The great unifier will seriously what he has to say on subjects like that if he dares touch them, Michael, always a pleasure. Love you. Love you show. Thanks for being here.
Megan greets me with you. Thanks.
Now, to a Broadcast News, exclusive regarding the controversy separate surrounding UPenn, transgender swimmer, Leah, Thomas. We are now just two weeks away from Thomas vying to break, all-time NCAA records, set by Olympic gold medalists. Missy Franklin, and Katie, Ledecky. We have heard reports of young, female swimmers being upset with having to compete against Thomas due to the Natural physical advantages. She has against them. She was born.
And raised as a biological man, she's actually swam for you the University of Pennsylvania as a man, and then just switched and started swimming as a woman. Many of these female swimmers. However, are afraid to speak up and for good reason we have seen what the mob can do. But they've been begging for people within their sport, those with positions that are secure who can make a difference to speak up for them. Now, one man is doing so joining me now Seth Houston, Seth is the head coach of
swimming at Rice University. He's the first active division. One coach to publicly take a stand on this set. Thank you so much for being here.
Thank you for having me.
So let's talk about just set the stage. Why do you think it's unfair for a swimmer? Like Leah Thomas who as far as I can tell? She was, when swimming as a man. She was ranked 460 second in the country. Now swimming for the pain, that was when she was on the pens. Men team, now swimming for the pens women team.
Is ranked first among the nation's college women. So what about it is
unfair? Well, I mean, I think I think it really goes first towards just trying to protect women's Athletics and and in swimming in this case, it what's unfair is in the long and short of it is Leah, Thomas with was born a man. And
Lee went through puberty and everything as a as a male, so there's some some significant differences in the development between male and female particularly during puberty physiologically. And so, you know, just the long and short of it is is that is why there is women's sports and Men Sports and that was created to create a Level Playing Field. So women could Thrive and Excel.
In their own
Arena, isn't it crazy that you have to be careful talking about how there are biological differences between men and women when you get on this test subject like you have to be careful. Not to say that. Men are different from women physically and have different physical advantages over women. Like that's the crazy place. We're at now that that's not disrespectful to transgender swimmers or athletes or anybody else to say there are biological and physical differences between the two Sexes. The fact that Leah has chosen to transition in her social world to female doesn't
Undo, all of that. That's just, that's the reality of this situation. It's why people like you are in an uncomfortable position and having to acknowledge what is clear without being intentionally offensive, which I know is not your
goal.
I mean, absolutely. I'm in the classroom and the workplace, you know, more power to Leah being Julio wants to be and being her true self. Absolutely support that 100%. I think I think where it gets kind of murky is is
You know, I mean this is a there's a place where and in the community where it's all or nothing and and and again, I think there have to be some areas where we've we've carve out and protect, you know, women have been a protected class in sport and now with with, you know, started like this, but a biological male coming in at a high level among women.
Is going to take opportunity and really change kind of, you know, if this happened over and over and over again, it's really going to change how women would even approach for some might leave the sport. There's just all sorts of negative things to get old. We happen to women. So that's not the state that Leah should not be included or any other transgender athlete. I mean, absolutely. We want everybody to have an opportunity to compete and to learn and
And do the things that they're passionate about. It's just what? What is Fair competition? And I think that's what included. We're in the come up this year
included, where and how, what, what would you say is the solution to a, you know, swimmer like Leah.
Well, I feel like USA swimming came out with some with some good guidelines about a month ago and the NCAA said that they were deferring to governing bodies.
And and so lo and behold, USA swimming appropriately came up with some some I think some some good start good start to to addressing this and we'll obviously have to see how that ball toy plays out, but they have a two-tier system kind of an elite level athlete tear that, you know, you have to demonstrate the kind of your, your biology has been mitigated, you know, with lower testosterone levels.
Over time, you know other, you know, other ways that you have mitigated your mail, biology to compete fairly as a woman and and then at the lower level, just for those who want to participate and just be in the sport. We're giving them an opportunity. USA swimming to swim is who you identify as and I totally agree with that. I think it it some level you know you want.
Especially at the elite level. You want to assure a level play fair, and view level, and fair playing field.
Hmm. So it's a couple things in the NCAA, then stepped in after USA, swimming did that and said, okay. Those are going to be the standards next year. But this year Lea Thomas swims. She swims at the NCAA championships. She swims at the meet you guys just had and she's breaking records left and right and this despite some swimming observers who believe she's phoning it in on some of that. She's holding back to try to keep it.
Closer than she could make it but read several reports about that because those who observe swimming say, you can tell when a swimmer is not giving it their all and they feel like under the national Spotlight, now, Leah, Thomas is doing just enough to make it tight. But Place herself as the winner in most of these races. I don't know if you've observed that too. But the point is she gets to swim. She's going to swim in the NCAA championships this month in two weeks, and I wonder if you think that's okay.
Here's where I kind of started.
And on that, at this point, I feel like Leah played by the rules as they were written with the n-c-double-a, when, when she appealed and went through the process to be eligible. And at the time, you know, the rules which, and that's where I've had a problem with the n-c-double-a not being out in front of kind of this kind of issue. You know. It this is not on Leah. This is kind of on governing bodies and that to have taken care of these things, and protect women athletes, and kind of the
Fairness of sport at this point. I feel like if I were coaching or if I was, if there was an issue like where they changed the rules in the middle of the Season, that that maybe was had benefited my athletes. And now, that was gonna disrupt their Fair opportunity to compete. I would really have an issue with that. I think. In this case, I would take the same same stance. I mean, at this point it answered a, a is a Collegiate season, Leah started.
Italy should finish it about it.
And why would it matter? Okay. So let's see. Leah goes and dominates NCAA championships and wins everything and sets records. Let's say, she beats the record held by ladakhi and the other girls who might otherwise have one are now. Second placers. Why would that matter to those girls? Why why you know, do they have a right to be upset?
Absolutely. There's going to be I mean, I've said it before I think Lea goes through the
Ships and swims. And there's going to be a lot of people in the in the sporting world in the swing World, from the fans to parents to to the athletes that are going to be shaking their head. Saying how did this happen? You know, that this isn't fair. I it'll be interesting to see it ncaa's again. It's on, it's on National exposure. It'll be, you know, well attended by athletes and coaches from all over the country who haven't been in person.
To compete and see, see everything happens. So my hope is that it? It honestly, again, it kind of reinforces why rules have made it to be changed and updated, you know, and hopefully that'll only make make it more obvious. Why things fan to be done?
All right. So how people who are not competitive athletes understand it, right? Because I've heard and I've read a lot of statements from like glad and others saying societal good is more.
Then the good that one. Swimmer feels this in this scenario, the biological girl who comes in. Number two societal. Good is more important. And you know, you may not like it but you're gonna have to suck it up because Society is moving forward and this is the right result and too bad. And we've even seen one of the competitive swimmers not at UPenn and another organization. She's at Stanford. Brooke Ford come out and say something similar. She's apparently in these competitions and
Expected to do well, and she says, I believe, treating people with respect, and dignity is more important than any trophy or record will ever be. Which is why I will not have a problem racing against Leah. And ncaa's this
year. I think in that case, I would say any competitive athlete especially at this high level you, there's certain things you have control over and there's things you don't. And in Brooks case. She can do what Brooke can do. And if Lee is going to be
It's in Brookes best interest just to focus on Brooke and get up and race and do our best. And you know, maybe she'll come out on top to to kind of make an issue as as an athlete and get to vocal about it over. Something that you have. No power over with dance, aw rules from that would really, really kind of help that individual then self-destruct. So, you know, I'll have someone competing at the meeting. Our focus is on that athlete doing her absolute best.
Best and being prepared to do her best, just fight the other things going on around that are getting out within her power. And so for that, I feel like I don't necessarily what I would say. Kind of in the other piece of that with Brooke said, is of course, we want to include we want to support Lea. We want I want all of those things but in sport, I mean they there are
Rules are created to create a Fair competition. And and that's why we update rules from here to here. That's why an umpire's should be calling balls and Strikes for one team, the same as another team, you know, that's, there's, you know, you step over the line and you're out of bounds that catch doesn't count things like that. So, you know, to just say, get used to it. This is, this is where we're going as a society.
Again, in the workplace in the classroom. 100% agree. I want that should have no bearing on whether someone could perform their duties do a great job live and learn and Thrive. But again, sport is just it's different and it is different because it's been created again separate. But you know, honestly, it's equal. There's men and women's sports women. You can you can go down studies.
Studies and studies where it's illustrating and showing the physiological differences that happen from IO biology and female biology. And it's not, it's
not all if it wasn't either, if it's not all about the level of
testosterone. Yeah, if it was all one sport, you wouldn't see very many women at the top of the podium and that if they were exclusively competing against well, it was all mixed together. So
I know that you said be the change. I know that you gave an interview to
Swim swam.com. And I know you said in there. The NCAA is, is not leading. They're not even really following. They're just sort of going along. What about you pain? Because, as far as I can tell, they've actually said that. If Lee has kept out of these competitions, they According to some one of the swimmers who spoke out. Anonymously, have threatened to sue on Leah's behalf to make sure she can swim. And then when angry parents of the female swimmers sent a
Letter to UPenn saying, would you please do something to protect our daughters? This has gone too far. The response was and I only wish I were kidding. The response was we fully support all of our swimming student-athletes and we have encouraged them to utilize the robust resources available to them at Penn in particular. The providing links to counseling services counseling and Psychological Services and the lgbtq center in other words.
Seth, they're telling the girls to go get therapy to deal with their anger as opposed to doing anything to deal with the source of the
anger. I'm not really following what the Ivy League schools are doing? I guess I could tell you. I'm very happy to be coaching it rice. And I feel like we've had, we're having a debate literally about what I've said and in, you know, kind of my right to speak. And and then again,
You know, am I, you know, the I think some of it is like, am I being transphobic by expressing this opinion? And that's what some people choose to think I've had. I just think it's too bad, that were not like it, it pan or an Ivy League school. They're not really even allowed to express an opinion and said, they're kind of being muted and just go along and get along. That's too bad. That's really, I don't feel like what what we're really all about. I think.
We can have an open and fair dialogue and disagreements. Come with the territory.
You were called transphobic by the paper at Rice. The student newspaper, the thresher, the Student Association, Equity Council introduced a resolution denouncing you calling for you to publicly, apologize, to Leah, Thomas and the student body for your quote, transphobic comments, which simply mirror, the ones you've made here for rice to make a monetary donation to the Houston trans legal aid clinic.
And for you to undergo allyship training and an anti-discrimination course, so are you prepared to do any of
that?
I think we'll just see how all this plays out. I've completely stayed out of it. I really don't, you know, the student government's going to do with the student government does, what I've seen here and again, I understand why a lot of people won't speak out. I mean, I sure as heck didn't say something even thinking that this would go to hit. Like I would even be sitting here talking with you or any of that. It was just me state.
Opinion. And I think what has happened is, you know, this is a very sensitive issue, people get really wound up kind of Defending, you know, their ideals for what they think and can be very offended by something. Who's speaking out or saying something different. And that's what I'm seeing here. What has happened? Quite honestly, I feel like number of people are kind of. I'm going to say coming out of the woodwork at Rice a number of students that
I've been silent and kind of feel like they're seeing that, this is not really a very fair process for this kind of been one-sided and and they've kind of been speaking up and and, and some people are actually gaining a voice, you know, from this. And so it's been, it's been kind of interesting to kind of sit back and watch it
unfold. Usually, that's what, that's what we see when one person speaks up. There are many others who have been too afraid. Who might then find the courage.
Can I ask you a frankly? Do you feel that you need a lie ship training or an anti-discrimination course?
Know I really live live very much by rule of everybody who I need first is I'm going to be very respectful to you. It would take a lot for me to for that person to kind of lose my respect. So I really value people think thing anybody who comes across my path. I'm greeting. I'm hello. I'm I'm treating really
Very fairly. And that's just, you know, that's really just kind of my, my Christian background and I feel like that is giving me the opportunity or ability to kind of love everybody. Now can meet people where they're at. They, you know, and again, we're going to be different and people are going to have different ideas and opinions and I could tell you coach and 18 to 22 year old women. They do not think like I do in a lot of ways and that doesn't mean I think any less of them, honestly, I really
The value kind of things they say or where they're coming from and I'm willing to listen and learn still.
Well, let me ask you that because to the girls, we know that the girls at UPenn have been afraid to speak out young women. They because they've done so but anonymously to various Publications. What what is your message to them? The ones we know are unhappy with the situation. They don't they don't want to swim next to a biological man. Who's now transgender woman. They don't want to share a locker room. 35 young women with someone.
Who is still biologically male? And the what they have reported is that Leah, Thomas doesn't seem to care at all about the fact that they are uncomfortable and they are losing and they don't think it's fair and they report that she's enjoying the attention and enjoying the winds and I'm sure it does feel good to go from 437 to number one, but what do you what is your message to the young women at UPenn? Who are too afraid to
speak out? And really thought about what I would deliver her message to them, I believe, you know, one of the things I just spoke to my team about, you know, when
Yeah, I wanted them, for instance, went when what I had came out and then the student government, I did, I wasn't encouraging anybody to speak up for me. I wanted them. If they have a comment, if they wanted some to share, you know, if they're comfortable with it, do it. And it didn't have to be in support of me and if it was great, but but, you know, just for the most part, I encouraged him to speak up, but I really do understand, at least.
In part, you know, some of the things you hear is if, as a young person, if you speak up, it could cost you, you know, a job later or you could be, you know, kind of sort of speed, cancelled out those kinds of things. And, and that's a real fear when you're 18, 19, 20, because acceptance and being a part of a group and your reputation, or, you know, very, very important kind of in your self-esteem and who you are. So,
I mean, I do understand where people are quiet and trying to be an anonymous but it's an in some ways that just seems to be what's been reinforced, enforced upon. Imagine if it wasn't like that there probably would be some voices. Speaking up
cracking myself. Thomas was ranked 460 second in the country on the men's team. Now number one on the women's, I will say this. I'll still the last word on his head. I've been I've been through a lot publicly when it comes to cancer.
Chelation. I've been a young woman who's been a lot of battles that are dicey. And I will I land in a different place on this? Having been through all that, and I say these young women. If they don't speak out, now will regret it for the rest of their lives. That this is a character defining moment. They're not 12. They're 19. And this is one of those moments where taking a principled stand. Just like we saw those girls doing Connecticut in the face of being called names when you know, what you're really calling for is fairness. Not just for you, but for womankind.
Women kind is not bigoted. It's Brave and I think they're sort of a before-and-after moment happening now. Right now for those women and there is not an employer in the nation that that will refuse to hire them, that is worth working for. And there are a lot of employers who will hire them for standing on their principals, Having the courage to speak out. And then those are the places they should land as opposed to the former. That's I'm at a time, but I am very
Be grateful for you speaking out on it and coming on this program. And speaking your mind. I hope the blowback is not to to pierce. But call us if it gets there all the first chef. Yeah, you bet.
Thanks for listening to the Megyn Kelly show. No BS, No Agenda, and no fear.
