The following is a conversation with my dear friend, Andrew huberman. His fourth time on this podcast. It's my birthday. So, this is a special birthday episode of sorts. Andrew flew down to Austin, just to wish me a happy birthday, and we decided to
do a podcast last second,
we literally talked for hours beforehand and a long time after late into the night, he's one of my favorite human beings. Brilliant scientist, incredible teacher. And a loyal friend I'm grateful for Andrew.
I'm grateful for good friends, for
all the support and love. I've
gotten over the past few years. I'm truly grateful for this life. For the years, the days, the minutes, the seconds
I've gotten to live on this beautiful Earth of ours. I really don't want to leave just yet. I think I would really like to stick around.
I love you all.
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Resting but if you must skip them, please do check out our sponsors. I enjoy their stuff, maybe you will too. This show is brought to you by inside tracker a service that used to track biological data as data that comes from my own body. It's really interesting to consider all the different signals that we send from our body conscious and subconscious and something. I talked to Andrew in this podcast about of all the thoughts and ideas and memories.
real fabricated or morphed or modified or
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Lex.
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This is the less pigment podcast and now dear friends, here's Andrew Cuban.
Try newer run a little bit more, a losing weight. I'm not trying to lose weight, but I always do the same Fitness routine after like 30 years basically lift three days a week run three days a week, but one of the rounds is long run. One of them is medium, one of them's, a Sprint type thing. So what I've decided to do this here was just to extend the duration of the long run and I like being a mobile. I never want to be so.
That I can't move. Like I like I want to be able to go out and run 10 miles of a half to. So sometimes I do and I want to be able to Sprint if I have to sometimes I do and lifting and objects as feels good, it feels good to train like a lazy bear and just lift heavy objects. But I've also started training with lighter, weights and higher repetitions, and for three months cycles and it gives your joints arrest. And yes, I probably, you know it I think it also is interesting to see how train
Them differently, changes your cognition, that's probably hormone-related, you know, debt hormones, Downstream of training, heavy versus hormones, Downstream of training a little bit lighter. I think my cognition is better when I'm doing more cardio and when the repetition ranges are a little bit higher, which is not to say that people who lift heavy are dumb, but there is a, because there's real value in lifting heavy. There's a lot of angry people listening to this right now. No, no. But lifting heavy and then taking three to five minutes rest.
Is Far and Away a different challenge, then running hard for 90 minutes. That's a tough thing. Just like getting an ice bath people say, oh, well, how is that any different than working out? Well, there are a lot of differences but one of them is that it's very acute stress. Within one second. You're stressed. So I think subjecting the body to a bunch of different types of stressors in space and time is really valuable. So yeah, I've been playing with the variables in a systematic way.
Well, I like long and slow for like you said the impact that has on my cognition it the word listen, this of it the way it puts you in a the way it seems to clean out the Clutter. You know, it can take away that hyper focus and put you more in a relaxed Focus that for sure. Well for me brings the Clutter to the surface of first. Like all these thoughts come in there and then they dissipate, you know, I've been because I
Kneeboard pretty hard. That's when somebody tries to break your nails. You're not. So, what's in the bar? They try and break your knee. Yes, eat app. So that. Yeah, so it's, you know, hyperextend the need that direction the guide me, Bard pretty hard. So, in ways, I don't understand it kind of hurts to run, I don't understand what's happening behind there and you to investigate this, it basically, this the hamstring Flex, like curling, your leg hurts a little bit, okay, and that results in this weird doll, but
Sometimes extremely sharp pain in the back of the knee. So I'm working. I'm working to this anyway but walking doesn't hurt. So I've been playing around with walking recently like for two hours and thinking I love because I know a lot of like smart people throughout history have walked and thought you have to like, you know, play with things that have worked for others. Not just to exercise but to like integrate this very light kind of prolonged exercise exercise.
Into a productive life. So they do all the thinking while they walk, it's like a meditative type of walking and it's really interesting. It's a really works. Yeah, the practice I've been doing a lot more of lately, as I walk while reading a book in the yard I'll just paste back and forth or walk in a circle audiobook or you know it's hard. Hard hard copy you just hold I holding the book and I'm walking and I'm reading. Yeah, and I, you should have a pen and I'm underlining. I have this whole system. Like underlining Stars, exclamation points goes back to University of what things. I'll go back to
Which things I export to notes and that kind of thing. But from the beginning, when I opened my lab at that time, in San Diego, before I moved back to Stanford, I would have meetings with my students or postdocs by just walking in the field and in the lab, you know, and I'd bring my Bulldog Costello. Yeah, Bulldog Mastiff at the time and he was slow Walker. So if these were slow walks but I can think much more clearly that way. There's a Nobel prize winning.
Pastor at Columbia University School of Medicine, Richard Axel won. The Nobel Prize, Co one Nobel Prize with Linda, back for the discovery of the molecular basis of olfaction and he walks in voice, dictates his papers. And now with rev or these other, maybe there are better ones than rev where you can convert audio files into text very quickly, and then edit from there. So I will often voice dictate first drafts and things like that, and I totally agree on the long runs, the walks, the integrating that with cognitive,
I'll work harder to do a Sprint and then the gym, you know, are you weight train? You just seem naturally strong like thicker jointed. It's true. Yeah true. I mean we did the one very beginner because I'm a very beginner of Jiu-Jitsu class together and yeah, as I mentioned then. But if people missed it a Lexus freakishly strong, I think I was born genetically to hug people like Costello, exactly. You guys have a certain similarity he had wrists like, you know, so you and
Jocko and Costello have these like wrists and elbows that are super thick, you know? And then you look around, you see tremendous variation, you know, some people will have like, the, the wrist width of a whippet or Woody Allen and then other people like you or Jocko or, you know, there's this one Jocko video or thing on GQ or something. Have you seen the comments on Jocko? These are the best in the comments. I love the comments on YouTube because occasionally they're funny. The best is when Jacques was born. The doctor looked at his
Parents and said, it's a man. Chuck Norris type comments. Yeah, those are great. That's what I miss about Rogan being on YouTube with the full-length episodes of that common. So this is technically a birthday podcast. What do you love most about getting older?
It's like a it the
confirmation that comes from getting more and more data that which basically says yeah. The first time you thought that thing it was actually right because the second third and fourth and fifth time it turned out the exact same way. In other words, there have been a few times in my life where
I did not feel easy about something I do. I felt signal for my body, this is not good and I didn't trust it early on, but I knew it was there and then
two or three
bad experiences later, Mabel to say ah, every single time there was a signal from the body informing, my mind. This is not good. Now, the reverse is also been true that there been a number of instances
As in which I feel sort of immediate delight. And there's this kind of almost astonishingly, simple experience of feeling comfortable with somebody or at peace with something or delighted at an experience. And it turns out all, literally, all of those experiences and people turned out to be experiences in people that are still in my life and that I still Delight in every day. In other words, what's great about getting older is that you
Opt questioning
the
signals that come from the I think deeper, recesses of your nervous system to say, hey, this is not good. Or
hey, this is great
more of this. Whereas I think, in my teens, my 20s my 30s, I'm 40 almost 48, I'll be 48, next month, I didn't trust, I didn't listen, I actually put a lot of work into overriding those signals and learning to fight through them thinking that somehow
Was making me tougher or somehow that was making me smarter. When in fact, in the end those people that you meet that are, you know, difficult or, you know, their other names for it. You know, it's like and you're like and then you're like a piece of shit you know or this person is amazing and they're really wonderful and I felt that from go
so you've learned to trust your gut versus like the the influences of other people's
opinions. I've learned to trust my gut versus the
The forebrain over-analysis overriding, the gut other people often. In my life, have had great Optics, right? I've benefitted tremendously from an early age of being, in a large community of was been, mostly guys buy up some close female friends and always have as well. Who will tell me that's a bad decision where this person not so good or be careful, or they're great or that's great. So often times my community in the people around me have been more aligned with
The correct Choice. Then nausea really? Yes?
Really when you were younger like
well, Islands, parents and so on. I don't recall ever really listening to my parents. That you know, I grew up in a, you know, we don't have to go back to my childhood thing, but my sense was answer. Thank you. I learned that recently in a psilocybin Journey. My first my first high dose psilocybin Journey, which was welcome back. Done with a clinician. Thank you very much. Thank you. I was worried there for a second at one point.
I'm not coming back, but in any event. Yeah, I grew up with some wild kids, you know, I would say about a third of my friends from childhood or dead or in jail. About a third have gone on to do tremendously impressive, things, start companies, excellent athletes, academics, scientists and and clinicians. And and then about a third are living their lives as they become more. Typical. I just mean that they are happy family people with jobs that they may.
Lee serve the function of make money. They're not sort of career into their career for a career sake. But so some of my friends early on give me some bad ideas but most of the time my bad ideas came from overriding the signals that I knew that my body and I would say my body and brain we're telling me to obey and I say body and brain is that there's this brain region the insula.
So which does many things but it represents our sense of internal sensation interception. And I was talking to Paul Conte about this. You know, as who as you know, I trim respect tremendously. I think he's one of the smartest people I've ever met. I think for different reasons, he and Marc Andreessen or some of the like smartest people I've ever met, but Paul's level of insight into the human psyche is absolutely astounding and and
he
says,
The opposite of what most people say about the brain, which was most people say, oh, the supercomputer the brain is the forebrain. It's like a monkey brain with a extra real estate put on there in the forebrain, is what makes us human and gives us our superpowers. Paul has said, and he's done a whole series on Mental Health, that's coming out from our podcast in September. So this is not attempt to plug that but he will, elaborate on what I'm also. Are you doing? Things will fall. We already did. Yeah. So Paul. Oh nice.
Yeah, so Paul Conti shot a. We did it he and I sat down. Need it for episode series. On mental health is not mental illness mental health about how to explore one's own subconscious.
Explore the self build and cultivate the generative Drive. You'll learn more about what that is from him. He's far more eloquent and clearer than I am. And he provides essentially a set of steps to explore the self that does not require that you work with a therapist. This is self-exploration that that is rooted in. Psychiatry, it's rooted in neuroscience, and I don't think this information exists. Anywhere else. I'm not aware that exists, anywhere else and
He essentially distills it all down to one eight and a half by eleven sheet, which we provide for people. And he says, they're I don't want to give too much away because it, I would detract from what he does so beautifully. But if I have tried, and I went to accomplish in any way, but he said, and I believe that the subconscious is the supercomputer of the brain, all the stuff working underneath, our conscious awareness, that's driving our feelings and our what?
Think are the decisions that we've thought through so carefully and that only by exploring the subconscious and understanding in a little bit, can we actually improve ourselves over time? And I agree. I think that so that the mistake is to think that thinking can override it all. It's a certain style of introspection and thinking that allows us to read the signals from our body. Read the signals from one brain integrate the knowledge that we're collecting about
Out ourselves. And, and to use all that in ways that are really adaptive in generative for us,
what do you think, is there in that subconscious? When we think of the
young and Shadow, this is what what's there? You know there's this idea, is if you're familiar with two, I'm sure that this young and idea that there are we all have all things inside of us. That all of us have the capacity to be evil to be good at cetera. But that some people Express one or the other to Greater extent. But he also mentioned that there's a unique category of people maybe two to
Percent of people that don't just have all things inside of them, but they actually spend a lot of time, exploring a lot of those things. The darker, recesses, the Shadows, their own Shadows. You know, I'm somebody who's drawn to goodness and to light and to Joy and all those things like anybody else, but I think maybe was part of how I grew up maybe was the crowd. I was with maybe, but then again, you know, even when I started spending more time with academics and scientists.
Mean, you see shadows and other ways, right? You see pure ambition, with no passion? I recall a colleague in San Diego, who it was very clear to me did not actually care about understanding the brain, but understanding the brain was just his Avenue to exercise ambition, and if you give him something else to work on, he'd work on that. In fact, he did, he left any worked on something else I realized he has no passion for understanding the brain. Like all the assumed all scientists do certainly why I went into it.
Some people's just raw ambition it's about winning. It doesn't matter what they win, it's too which to me is crazy, but I think that's a shadow that some people explore not. When I've explored. I think the shadow parts of us are very important to come to understand and look better to understand them and know that they're there and work with them, then to not acknowledge their presence and have them surface in the form of addictions or behaviors that the damage us
And
other people. So one of the processes for achieving mental health is to bring those things to the surface. So fish the subconscious mind.
Yes. And and, you know, he Paul describes 10 cupboards, that one can look into for exploring the self, there's the structure of self and the function of self. Again, this all be spelled out in the series in a lot of detail. Also in terms of its relational aspect between people how to pick good partners and good relations, you gets really into this from a very different perspective. Yeah.
Donating stuff. I was just sitting there. Just I will say this that that for episode series with Paul is at least to date. The most important work I've ever been involved in in all of my career. Because it's very clear that we are not taught how to explore our subconscious. Yeah. And that very few people actually understand how to do that even most psychiatrists. Because if he mentioned something about psychiatrist, you know, if you're a cardiothoracic surgeon or something like that and 50% of your patients, die.
Die. You're considered a bad cardiothoracic surgeon but with no disrespect to psychiatrist. There are there are some excellent psychiatrist out there. They're also a lot of terrible psychiatrists out there because unless all of those all of their patients commit suicide or half commit suicide, they can treat for a long time without it, becoming visible, that they're not so good at their craft. Now, he's superb at his craft and I think he would say that. Yes, exploring some Shadows, but also just understanding the self like what, you know.
Really under understand like like, who am I and what's important, what a my ambitions? What am I strivings again? I'm lifting from some of the things that he'll describe exactly how to do this. People do not spend enough time addressing those questions and as a consequence they discover what resides in their subconscious through the sometimes bad. Hopefully I'll also good but manifestations of their actions, their we are driven.
Even by
this
huge, 90% of our real estate, that is not visible to our conscious awareness. And we need to understand that, you know, I've talked about this before I've done therapy twice a week since I was a kid. I had to as a condition of being let back in school. I continued, I found a way to either through insurance or even when I didn't have insurance, it took an extra job writing for Thrasher magazine. When I was a postdoc. So I can pay for therapy at a discount because I didn't make much money as opposed to talk. I mean, I think
For me it's as important as going to the gym and people think it's just you know ruminating on problems or getting certain do know if you work with somebody really good. They're forcing you to ask questions about who you really are, what you really want. It's not just about support but there should be support, there should be Rapport but then it's also there should be in sight, right? Most people who get therapy, they're getting support, there's Rapport but in sight it's not easy to arrive at and a really good psychologist.
Gist or psychiatrist can help you arrive at Deep insights. That transform your entire
life. Well, sometimes when I look inside and I do this often, you know, exploring who you truly. Are you come to this question? Do I accept once you see parts? Do I accept this or do I fix? This? Is, this a is this who you are fundamentally and it will always be
this way. Or is this a
problem to be fixed? Like, for example,
One of the
things especially recently, but in general, over time of discovered about myself, probably has roots in childhood probably has roots and a lot of things. As I deeply value loyalty may be more than the average person. And so when there's disloyalty it can be painful to me and so this is who I am and so, do I have to relax a bit? Do I have to fix this part, or is this Who You Are?
Our and there's a million that's
one. Like little I think loyalty is a good thing to cling to provided that when loyalty is broken that it doesn't disrupt too many other areas of your life but it depends also on who's disrupting that loyalty. If it's a co-worker versus a romantic partner vs. Your exclusive romantic partner depending on the structure of your romantic partner life. You know I mean I have always experienced extreme
Joy and feelings of safety and Trust in my friendships again, mostly male friendships with female friendships to, which is only say that they were mostly male friendships, the female friendships have also been very loyal, let you know. So getting back, stabbed is not something I'm familiar with and yeah, I love being crude up, you know. Yeah, no
for sure. And I'm with you and, you know, you and I are very much have the same values on
This but, you know, there's that's one little thing and then there's many other things like I'm extremely self-critical and you, look at my, you know, I look at myself as I'm regularly very self-critical, there's a self critical engine in my brain. And I talked to actually Paul what this I think on the podcast quite a bit and he's saying this is a really bad thing. Mmm, like you need to fix this, you need to be able to be
regularly, very positive about yourself,
and I kept disagree with them, know, this is like who I am like you and it seems to
Work don't mess with thing. That seems
to be working. It's
fine. Like I asked lay between being really grateful and really self-critical, but then you have to like, figure out what is it. Maybe is there's a deeper root thing, there's an inch, maybe there's insecurity in there somewhere that's to do with childhood. And then you trying to prove something to somebody from your childhood, this kind of thing.
Well, a couple things that I think are hopefully valuable for people here, one is one way to destroy your life is too.
Spend time trying to control your or somebody else's past so much of our destructive behavior and thinking comes from wanting something that we saw or did or heard to not be true rather than really working with that and getting close to what it really was. And, you know, sometimes those things are even traumatic and we need to really get close to them and Andre for them to move through us and that, you know, there's a bunch of different ways to do that with support from others.
and hopefully, but sometimes on our own as well, the I don't think we can rewire our deep preferences and what we find Despicable or joyful, I do think that it's really a question of what allows us peace like, can you be at peace with the fact that you're very self-critical and enjoy that get some distance from it, have a sense of humor about it or is it driving you in a way that's keeping you awake at night and, and forcing you back to the table to do work in a way that feels
Dating and doesn't feel good, you know, can you get that humility and awareness of how your you know, of your ones flaws. And I think that that can create, you know, this word space sounds very new agey like get space from. It is so, you know, you can have a sense of humor about how how you neurotic we can all be. I mean, you know, neurotic is into actually a bad term in the classic sense of the psychologist and psychiatrist. The Freudian said that, you know, the best case is to be neurotic to actually, see one's own issues and work with them.
As psychotic is the other, it's the other way to be which is obviously not good. So, I think the question whether or not to work on something or to just accept it as part of ourselves. I think really depends if we feel like it's holding us back or not and I think you're asking perhaps the most profound question about being a human. Which is, you know, what do you do with your body? What do you do with your mind? I mean if you it's also question we started off talking about
Fitness a little bit. We just for whatever reason, you know, do I need to run an ultra marathon? No, I don't feel like I need to David Goggins does. And it does a whole lot more than that. So that for him, that's important for me. It's not important to do that. I don't think he does it just so he can run the Ultras. There's clearly something else in there for him and guys like campaigns and a tremendous respect for what they do and how they do it.
Um,
just one need to make their body, more muscular stronger, more endurance, more flexibility, do you need to read harder books? You need to, I think doing hard things feels good. I think it. I know it feels good. I know that the worse. I feel the worst way to feel is when I'm procrastinating and I don't do something. And then whenever I do something and I complete it, I break through that point where it was hard and and then I'm doing it at the end. I actually feel like I was
Infused with some sort of super chemical and who knows if it's probably a cocktail of endogenous Lemay chemicals, but I think it is good to do hard things, but you have to be careful, not to destroy your body, your mind in the process. And I think it's about whether or not you can achieve. Peace on Earth. Can you sleep well at night stress isn't bad? If you can sleep. Well, at night, you can be stressed all day. Go, go, go, go, go, go, go and it'll optimize your focus but can you fall asleep and say, deeply sleep at night.
Being in a hard relationship. Some people say, you know, that's not good. Other people like it. Can you be at peace in that and I think we all, you know, have different RPM. You know, we all kind of idle at different RPM and some people are big mellow Costello has and others are kind of like, you know, need more friction in order to to feel at peace. But I think ultimately what we want is to feel at peace,
you have been through some
Really low points over the past couple of years and I think the reason could be boiled down to the fact that I haven't been able to find a place of Peace. A place or people are moments that give deep inner peace. Yeah. I you know,
I think you put it really beautifully. It's you have to figure out given who you are. The various characteristics of your mind, all the things, all the contents of the cupboards hot, the had get space from it and ultimately one good representation of that is to be able to laugh at all of it, whatever. Whatever is going on inside your mind to be able to step back and just kind of chuckle at the at the beauty and the absurdity of the whole
thing. Yeah. And keep going, there's this beautiful as
As I mentioned seems like every podcast lately, huge rancid fan. Most because I just think Tim Armstrong is writing is pure poetry and without you like the music or not, you know, and he's written on music for a lot of other people too. He's not doesn't advertise that much because he's humble but
I had not, by the way, I went to a show of there's, like 20
years. But, yeah, I'm going to see them in Boston, September 18th, I'm literally flying there for four, or I'll take the train back from New York. I'm going to meet a friend of mine named Jim Thibault. Who's the guy?
Once a lot of companies, a skateboard industry, we're meaning, they're like a couple of kids to go see them play amazing, amazing people, Amazing Music, very intense, very intense and button, embodies all the different emotions. That's why I love it, right? They have some love songs. Have some hate songs. They have some. And but you know there's a going back to what you said. I think there's a there's a song. The first song on the Indestructible album. I think if there's a sort of he's just talking about like shock and disbelief of discovering things about people.
That were close to you and you know it's I won't I won't sing it but you know nor have wouldn't dare but buddy there's this one lyric where that's really stuck in my mind for for ever since that album came out in 2003 which is, you know, that nothing is what it seems. So I just sit here laughing, I'm gonna keep going on. I can't get distracted. There is this piece of like you got to learn how to push out the disturbing stuff, sometimes and go forward.
And I mean, I remember hearing that lyric and then writing it down and you know, that was a time where my undergraduate advisor, who was like a mentor and a father to me, you know, blew his head off in the bathtub like three weeks before and then my graduate advisor who was working for that time who I loved and adored was really like a mother. To me, I knew her when she was pregnant with her two kids died at 50 breast cancer and then my postdoc advisor you know, first day of work at Stanford.
As a faculty member sitting across the table, like this from him. Had a heart attack. Right in front of me, died of pancreatic cancer at the end of 2017. And I remember just thinking like, you know, going back to that song layer over and over like and where people would, you know, I haven't had many betrayals in life. I've had a few but just thinking like we're seeing something or learning something about something, you just, you can't believe it. And I mentioned that that lyric off that first song Indestructible on that album because it's this, the mm, like, just the raw emotion of like,
I can't believe this, what I just saw is so disturbing.
But I have to just keep going forward. There are certain things that we really do need to push not just into our periphery, but often to The Gutter and keep going and that's a hard thing to learn how to do. But if you're going to be functional in life you have to and actually just to get at this issue of. Do I change or do I embrace this aspect of self about six months? It was April of this last year. I did some intense work around some things that were really
Thing to me and I did it alone and it may have involved some medicine and I expected to get peace through this. I was like I'm gonna let go of the and I spent 11 hours just getting more and more frustrated angry about this thing that I was trying to resolve. And I was so unbelievably disappointed, that I couldn't get that relief. And I was like, what is this? Like, this is not how this is supposed to work. I'm supposed to be feel peace, the clouds are supposed to lift and
so, a week went by
And then another half week went by, and then someone, whose opinion, I trust very much. I explained this to them because I was getting a little concern, like, what's going on? This is worse, not better. And they said this is very simple. You have a giant blind spot which is your sense of justice. Andrew and your sense of anger are linked like an iron rod and you need to relax it.
And as they said that, I felt the anger dissipate. And so there was something that I think is it is true. I have a very strong sense of justice and my sense of anger.
Then at least was very strongly linked to it. So, it's great to have a sense of justice, right? I hate to see people wrong. I absolutely do an and I'm human, I'm sure I've wrong people in my life. I know. I have they told me I've tried to apologize and reconcile where possible still a lot of work to do, but we're I see Injustice. It draws in my sense of anger in a way that I think is just eating me up, and, but it was only in hearing that link that I wasn't aware of before. It was in my subconscious. Yeah, obviously.
I did, I feel the relaxation? It wasn't. There's no amount of plant medicine or MDMA, or any kind of, you know, chemical, you can take. That's naturally. Just going to dissipate what's hard for oneself. It needs if one chin braces at or if one chooses to do it, through just talk therapy or journaling, or friends or introspection or all of the above, there needs to be an awareness of the things that were just not aware of. So I think the answer to your question. Do you Embrace or do you fight these
Aspects of self is I think you get in your subconscious through good work with somebody skilled or and sometimes that involves the tools I just mentioned in various combinations and you figure it out, you figure out if it's serving you obviously it was not bringing me peace. It was undermining my sense of justice was undermining my sense of peace. And so in understanding this link between, now I would say that the in understanding this link between Justice and anger. Now, I think it's a little bit more of like
you know it's not like a Twizzler stick bendy but it's at least it's not like an iron Rod like you know when I see somebody wronged I mean it used to just like both like immediately
but you're able to step back now there that's like to me the ultimate place to reach is
laughter
I said here, laughed and gigs actly. That's, that's the lyric. I like, I can't believe it. I just sit here laughing like can't get distracted. Just you just at some point. But but the problem I think in just laughing at something like that gives you distance. But the question is, does do you stop engaging with it that point? Like, I experienced this. I mean recently, I got to see how sometimes I'll see something that's just like, what? Like, this is crazy. So I just laugh.
But then I continue to engage in it and it's taking me off course. And so there is a place where you know I mean I realize this is probably a kid show too. So I want to keep it you know G-rated but at some point for certain things it makes sense to go fuck that.
But also laugh at yourself for saying fuck that.
Yeah and then move on. So the question is are you get stuck or do you move on? Sure. Sure but like there's a lightness of being
that comes with laughter. I mean I've gotten sure I guess you know I spent the
With the on
today, you just gave me this burnt hair. Do you
know what this is? I have no idea. I'm sure there's actually, this should be a human lab episode on this.
It's a cologne that's burnt hair and it's like, supposedly really intense smell. And it is smoking, please. It's not gonna leave your no. That's
okay. Well, that's okay, I'll take a gentile with it as if I were with the camels and
great and yourself because I don't know if you can. So
I'm reading an amazing book. Yeah. Called an immense World by Ed Yong. He won a Pulitzer for we contain.
Hoods or something like that. I think is the title. The other book and first chapter is all about olfaction in the incredible power. That olfaction has that smells terrible.
I mean it doesn't leave you for that for those listening, it doesn't quite smell terrible. It's just intense and it stays with you. This this to me represents like just laughing at the absurdity of it all.
So I have to ask you were rolling shit
to do trainings just say yeah. So is that
fight between
Ilan and and assoc actually going to happen.
I think Elon is a huge believer of this idea of the most entertaining outcomes, the most likely. And he almost like there's almost the sense that there's not a free will and the universe has the kind of deterministic gravitational field pulling towards the most fun and he's just a player in that game. So from that perspective, I think it's
Seems like something like that
is inevitable. And like it, like a little scrap in the parking lot of Facebook or something like exact. Sorry. Meta. Yeah, but they looks like, they're, they're training for real and duck has competed right Jutsu?
So I think he is approaching it as a sport. Yeah, Ilan. Is approaching it as a spectacle and I mean, the way he talks about, he's a huge fan of History talks about all the Warriors that fought throughout history. If you look, he wants to really do it at the Coliseum and, you know,
Calcium is for 400 years. I was just so many so much great writing about this. I think over 400,000 people have died in the Colosseum Gladiators. So this is this historic place that shed so much blood, so much fear, so much anticipation of battle all this. So he loves this kind of spectacle and also the the meme of it hilarious. Absurdity of it the to Tech CEOs about
Pulling it out on sand in a place where Gladiators fought to the death and then Bears and Lions eight prisoners as part of the execution process.
What's also going to be an instance where Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk has changed bodily, fluids. They bleed this one things about fighting, you know, I think it was in that book. It's great book, Fighters heart, where he talks about, you know, the store, the intimacy of sparring I have I only wrote Jiu-Jitsu with you once but there was a period of time where I boxed and
Don't recommend, I got hit. I did some guys and definitely got hit back. It's four on Wednesday nights when I lived in San Diego. And, you know, when you spar with somebody, even if they hurt you, especially if they hurt you. You know, you see that person afterwards and there's a, there's an intimacy, right? Your it was it was in that book Fighters heart where he explains he and you're exchanging bodily. Fluids with a stranger, right? And Chris, there's a you're in your primitive mind. And so
There's an intimacy there that that persist.
So you go together through a process of fear anxiety. Like yeah.
When they get you you not I me watch somebody like catch somebody, if you know not so much in professional fine, but if people are sparring that they catch you, you acknowledge that they caught you like, he got me there
and on the flipside of that. So we train and then after that, we'll played Diablo for.
I don't know what that is. I don't play video games or but it's a video game. So it's like it's
a, you know, pretty
His combat in the video you're fighting like demons, okay?
Drive last video game, I played was Mike Tyson's, punch out. There you go. That's pretty. I met him recently went on his podcast.
You want you want
weight hasn't come out, y'all hasn't come. Yeah, yeah, I asked Mike, it's kids are great, they came in there, they're super smart kids, goodness gracious. They asked great questions asked Mike what he did with the piece of evander's ear that that he bit off at the easy to remember he's I get back to him.
Here you go. Sorry about that. He sells Edibles that are in the shape of ears. A little bite out of it. Yeah that his life has been incredible he's and I met. Yeah he his family you get the sense that they're really a great family. They're really
Mike Tyson. Mmm. That's a heck of a journey right there of a man. Yeah
my now friend Tim Armstrong like I said, lead singer from Ramsey, he put it best. He said you know that Mike Tyson's life is you know,
Experian in the, you know, down up down up and just let the arcs of his life are just from like serving only in America kind of tail to,
right? So speaking of Shakespeare, recently, gotten to know, Neri oxman, who's this incredible scientist, that works at the intersection of Nature and engineering and she reminded me of this Anna akhmatova Line. This is this
great Soviet poet. That I really love
From over a century ago, that each of Our Lives is a Shakespearean, drama
race to the Thousand
degree. So I have to ask, why do you think humans are attracted to this kind of Shakespearean drama? Is there some aspect? We've been talking about the subconscious mind that that pulls us towards the drama? Even though the place of mental health is peace?
Yes. And yes, do you have some of the draw?
Board such drama. Yeah,
if you look at the empirical data.
Yes I mean the right. If I look at the empirical data I mean I think about who I chose to work for as an undergraduate right. I was a, you know, barely finished high school, finally get to College. Barely, I think about it, this is really embarrassing and then not something to Aspire to, you know, I was thrown out of the dorms for fighting nice early, past my classes, you know, the girlfriend, and I split up, I mean, I was living in a squat. I got into
Big fight. He was getting in trouble with the law. Then she got my act together. Go back to school, start working for somebody who do I choose to work for a guy who's an ex-navy guy who smoke cigarettes in the fume Hood drinks coffee and we're injecting rats with MDMA. Yeah. And you know I was drawn to like the personality his energy but I also he was a great. He was great scientists worked out a lot on thermal regulation in the brain and and more, you know, go to graduate school. I'm working for somebody and
Decide that doing working in her laboratory, wasn't quite right for me. So I'm literally sneaking into the laboratory next door and working for the woman next door because I like the relationships that she had to a certain set of questions and she was a kind of a quirky person and, you know, so drawn to drama, but drawn to, I like characters like people that have texture. Yeah, and I'm not drawn to Raw ambition. I'm drawing people that seem to have a real passion for what they do and a uniqueness to them that I died. You know, you can kind of
not kind of, I'll just say how it is. I can feel their heart for what they do and I'm drawn to that like and that can be good. Same reason, I went to work for been beerus as opposed to dock. It wasn't because he was the first transgender Man, member of the National Academy of Sciences that was just a feature of who he was. I love how he loved glia. He would talk about these cells like they were the most enchanting things that he'd ever seen in his life and I was like this is like the biggest nerd I've ever met and I love him. I think we're I'm drawn to that.
This is another
thing that caught you makes elaborates on quite a bit more in the series on Mental Health, coming out, but there are different drives within us. There's this, there are aggressive drives not always for fighting but for intense interaction. I mean, look at Twitter. Look at some of the look at people, clearly have an aggressive Drive. There's also a pleasure Drive,
some people
also have a strong pleasure Drive. They want to experience pleasure, through food, through sex, through friendship through.
Adventure you know, but I think the Shakespearean drama is the drama of the different drives in different ratios in different people. I know somebody. And she's incredibly kind has an extremely high pleasure Drive loves taking great care of herself and people around her through food, and through Retreats and through all these things and make space is beautiful
everywhere. She
goes. And is the gifts these things that are just so unbelievably.
Feminine and an incredible these gifts to people in the kind and thoughtful about what they like, and then, but I would say very little aggressive drive from my read. And then I know other people who are just have a ton of aggressive drive and very little pleasure drive and I think so. There's this alchemy that exists where people have these things in different ratios and then you blend in, you know, the differences in the chromosomes and differences in hormones and differences in personal history. And what you end up with is a species
He's
that
creates incredible recipes of drama but also peace. Also relief from drama contentment. I mean, I realize this isn't the exact topic of the question, but someone I know very dearly actually ex-girlfriend of mine. Long-term partner, mine sent me something recently. I think it hit the nail on the head which is that ideally, for a man, they eventually settle where they find and feel peace.
They feel peaceful where they
can be themselves and feel peaceful now I'm sure there's a equivalent or mirror image of that for women but this particular post that she sent was about men and I totally agree. And so it isn't always that we're seeking friction but for periods of our life, we see friction, drama Adventure, excitement fights, you know, and doing hard hard things. And then I think at some point
I'm certainly coming to this point now where it's like, yeah, that's all great and checked a lot of boxes, but had a lot of close calls flew, really close to the Sun on a lot of things with life and limb and and part and spirit. And some you know people close to us didn't make it and sometimes not making, it means they're the career. They wanted went off a cliff or the the their health went off a cliff for their life, went off a cliff. But I think that there's also the Shakespearean drama of the characters that
Exit. The play in are living their lives, happily in the back drop. It just doesn't make for as much entertainment.
That's one. Other thing that's a benefit you could say, is the benefit of getting older is finding the Shakespearean. Drama less appealing or finding the joy in the piece.
Yeah. Definitely. I mean I think that I think there's real peace with age. I think the other thing is this notion of checking boxes is a real thing for me. Anyway, I have a morning meditation that I do well, I wake up now and get my sunlight a hydrate. He's a bathroom, I do all
The things that I talked about, I've started a practice of Prayer in the last year, which is new fish for me, which is we
could talk about in the morning. Yeah. Can you talk
about it a little bit? Sure. Yeah. And I, and then I have a meditation than I do that actually, is where I think through what, the different roles that I play. So, I like, I start very basic. I say, you know, okay, I'm an animal. Like we are, we are like, biologically animals, right? Human, you know,
I'm a man, I'm a scientist. I'm a teacher, my friend, my brother and my son. You, I go through this. I have this list and I think about the different roles that I have, and the roles that I still want in my life, going forward that I haven't yet fulfilled.
It just takes me, it's
sort of an inventory of where, I've been where I'm at, and where I'm going, as I say, and I don't know why I do it, but I started doing it this last year. I think, because it helps me understand, just how many different
Have to exist in and, and, and remind myself that there's still more that I haven't done that. I'm excited
about. So, within each of those contacts, there's like things that you want to kind of accomplish to Define that.
Yeah, and I'm ambitious. So, I think, you know, I'm a brother, I have an older sister. And I love her tremendously, and I think I want to be the best brother. I can be to her, which means maybe a call. Maybe just we do an annual trip together for our birthdays. Our birthdays are close together. We always go to New York for a birthday is if we go on for the last 34 years, like
I really like reminding myself of that role. Not because I'll forget, but because I have all these other roles. I'll get pulled into. I say the first one, I'm an animal because I have to remember that, I have a body that needs care, like, any of us. I need sleep. I need food. I need hydration. I need that. I'm human. That that the brain of a human is marvelously, complex, but also marvelously self-defeating at times and I so I'm thinking about these things in the context of the different roles and the whole thing takes about 45 minutes and I just find
Brings me a certain amount of clarity that then allows me ratchet into the day, the prayer piece. I think I've been reluctant to talk about until now because I don't believe in pushing religion on people. And, and I think that and I'm not, it's a highly individual thing. And I do believe that one can be an atheist and still pray or agnostic and still pray. But for me, it really came about
About through understanding that there are certain aspects of myself that I just couldn't resolve on my own and no matter how much therapy, no matter how much. And I haven't done a lot of it, but no matter how much plant medicine or other forms of medicine or exercise or podcasting or science or friendship or any of that I was just not going to resolve and
I started this because someone close to me, said, a male friend said, you know, prayer is powerful. And I said, well, how? And I don't know how, but if you, if you can get it can allow you to Get outside yourself, get let you give up control. And at the same time, take control. I don't even like saying take control but the whole notion is that again, forgive me but there's no other way to say it.
Whole notion is that you like, God works through US. Whatever. God is to you hee, hee, hee, hee, him her. Whatever that of Life, Force, let nature, whatever it is, to you, right? That it works through us and so I do a prayer. I'll just describe it where I asked, I may can ask to help remove my defects, my Character defects. I pray to God that help remove my Character defects, so that I can show up better and all the roles of my life and do good.
Like to which, for me is learning and teaching learning, and teaching. And and, and so, you might say, well, how is that different than a meditation? Well, it I'm acknowledging. That there is something that bigger than me, bigger than nature, as I understand it, that I cannot understand or control nor do I want to, and I'm just giving over to that. And does that make me less of a scientist? I sure as hell, hope not. I've certainly no. I, there's the head of our neurosciences at Stanford until recently.
You should talk to him directly about it. Bill Newsom has talked about his religious life for me, it's really a way of getting outside myself. And then understanding how I fit into this bigger picture and it's and the Character defects part is real, right? I'm a human. I have defects like I got a lot of flaws in me like anybody but and
trying to
acknowledge them and asking for help in removing them, not magically, but through
Right action through my right action. So I do that every morning and I have to say that it's helped, it's helped a lot. It's helped me be better to myself. Be better at other people. I still make mistakes but it's a, it's becoming a bigger bigger part of my life and I never thought I'd talk like this. And but I think it's clear to me
that
if we don't
Don't believe in something again, doesn't have to be traditional standardized religion, but if we don't believe in something bigger than ourselves, we at some level will self-destruct. I really, I really think so. Its power and its powerful in a way that all the other stuff, meditation. All the tools is, is not because it's really operating at a much deeper and bigger level. And, you know,
Yeah, I think the thing that's all I can talk about it mostly because I'm still working out. You know the scientist in me wants to understand how it works and I want to understand and the point is to just go, you know, there's something there's, you know, for lack of a better language for it. There's a higher power than me and what I can control, I'm giving up control on certain things and somehow, that restores a sense of agency for, for right action, better action,
I think, perhaps a part of
That is just the humility that comes with acknowledging, their something bigger and more powerful than you and you can't control everything.
It's, I mean that you go through life as a hard-driving person, you know, forward Center of mass. I remember being that way since I was little, so I can Lego something, we all Lego sounds like it on the weekends, you know, learning about medieval weapons than giving lectures about it in class, one of the five or six years old. We're learning about tropical fish and, you know, cataloging all of them at the store and then organizing it, make my, you know, my dad.
Me or my mom driving in some fish store and then spending all my time there until they throw me out in all of that. But I also remember my entire life, I would secretly pray.
When things were good, and things weren't good, but mostly, when things weren't good, because it's important to pray. For me, it's important to pray each morning regardless. But when things weren't, right, I couldn't get make sense them. I would secretly pray, but I felt kind of ashamed of that for whatever reason. And then it was once in college, I distinctly, remember I was having a hard time with a number of things and I took a run.
Down to San speeches, UC Santa Barbara. And I remember, I just was like, I don't know if I even have the right to do this, but I'm going to just praying. I just prayed for the ability to be as brutally honest with myself and with other people, as I possibly could be about a particular situation. I was in at that time, I mean, I think now, it's probably safe to say, I'd, I'd gone off to college because of my high school girlfriend. We had serious entry, she was my family more, frankly, more
Biological family was at a certain stage of life and we reach a point where we were diverging and it was, it was incredibly painful. It was, like, losing everything I had and it's like, what do I do? How do I manage this? Do I, you know, I was ready to quit and join the Fire Service just to support us so that we could move forward and and, and, you know, it was just but praying just saying I can't figure this out on my own. It's sort of like, I can't think of this out on my own and how frustrating that is. No number of friends could tell me or and inner.
Wisdom couldn't tell me and eventually led me to the right answers, and she and I are friendly friends to this day. She's happily married with child and we're on good terms, but I think
you know,
it's
It's a scary thing but it's the best thing when you can't control this and asking for help, I think is also the piece you're not asking for some magic hand to come down and take care of your asking for the help to come through you, right? So that your body is used to do these right works, right action?
Isn't it interesting? That this secret thing that you almost embarrassed by that, you did as a child is something, you owe me. It's another thing you do is you get older as you realize like those things are part of you and it's actually a beautiful
Thing. Yeah, a lot of the content of the podcast is deep applicant them content. And we talked about everything from, you know, Eating Disorders to bipolar disorder to depression. You know, a lot of different topics but the tools are the protocols as we say, right? The sunlight viewing all the rest, you know, a lot of that stuff is just stuff. I wish I had known when I was in graduate school, if I'd known to go outside every once in a while and get some sunlight, not just stay in the lab. I would, you know, I might not have hit like a really tough round of
session when I was a postdoc and working twice as hard and you know, when my body would break down or I'd get sick a lot, I don't get sick Much Anymore occasion. I'm at once. Every 18 months to two years. I get a, you'll get something but alert, you know, I used to break my foot skateboarding. All the time, I couldn't understand what's wrong with my body. I'm getting injured, I can't do what everyone else can do. I developed more slowly at a long Arc of puberty but I so that was part of it. I was still developing but, you know, how to get your body stronger. How to build endurance that no one told me the information.
Wasn't there. So a lot of what I put out there, is the information that I wish I had, because once I had it, I was like, wow, like a, this stuff really works be, it's grounded in something real. You know, someplace sometimes certain Protocols are combination of, you know, animal human and animal and human studies sometimes clinical trials. Sometimes there's some mechanistic conjecture for some, not all I always make clear, which, but in the end, like figuring out how things work so that we can be
Happier healthier, more productive, suffer less, like reduce the suffering of the world. And I think that well, I'll just say thank you and for asking about the prayer piece again, I'm not pushing or even encouraging it on any one, I've just found it to be tremendously useful for me,
you know, I mean about prayer in general, he said information.
Not figuring out how to get stronger. Healthier smarter, all those kinds of things, a part of me believes that deeply, you know, you can gain a lot of knowledge and wisdom through learning, but a part of me believes that all the wisdom I need was also was there when I was 11 and 12 years
old and then it got cluttered over. Well, listen, I can't wait for you in Conti to talk again because when he gets going about the subconscious,
Conscious in the amount of this, that sits below the surface, like an iceberg. And, and I, and the fact that when we're kids were not obscuring, a lot of that subconscious as much. And and sometimes I can look a little more primitive. I mean, that kid, that's disappointed, we'll let you know, the kid that's excited will let you know, and you feel that raw, exuberance, or that raw dis mail. And I think that as we grow older, we learn to cover that
Stuff up, we wear masks and we have to be functional and I don't think we all want to go around just being completely raw. But as you said, as you get older, you also get to this point where you gonna go, you know what, what are we really trying to protect anyway? I mean, I have this theory that, you know, certainly my experience has taught me that a lot of people, but
I'll talk about men because that's what I know best.
whether they show up strong or not, that they're really afraid of
Being weak like they're just afraid. Like, sometimes the strength is even a way to try and not be weak, right? Which is different than being strong for its own sake. I'm not just talking about physical strength and find my intellectual strength. I'm talking about money, I'm talking about expressing Drive. I've been watching this series a little bit of chimp Empire. Oh yeah. So chimp Empire is amazing, right? They have the head champ that he's not the head shape, but the the, the Alpha and the group. Yep. And he's getting older.
And so, what does he do? Every once in a while he goes on these Vigor displays, he goes. And he grabs branches starts break him. He starts thrashing him, and he's incredibly strong. They're all kinda like watching. I mean, yeah, I mean Italy, think of people like they're dead lifting on Instagram. I just think they displays a Vigor. This is just the primate sewing. That displays the Vigor. Now what's interesting is that he's doing that specifically to say hey I still have what it takes to lead this troop. Okay. Then there are the ones that are sub.
It to him but not so not so far behind. It seems to be that there's a very clear like numerical
ranking. There is like, it's clear who's a number two, number three. I mean
probably gets to mate, first who gets to eat first? This is just another animal societies to. But Bob sapolsky would be a great person to talk about this with because he knows obviously tremendous amount about it, and I know just the top Contour. But yeah. So number two, three and four. Males are aware that he's doing these bigger displays, but they're also
So we're because in primate Evolution. They got some extra for brain to not as much as us, but they got some and they're aware that the Vigor displays are displays that because they've done them as well. In a different context, might not just be displays a Vigor, but might also be an insurance policy against people seeing weakness. Hmm. Okay. So now they start using that prefrontal cortex to do some interesting things. So in primate world, if a male is friendly with
A man wants to affiliate with him. Say, hey, I'm backing you, they'll go over and they'll pick off the little parasites and eat them. And so the grooming is extremely important. In fact, if they want to ostracize or kill one of the members of their troop, they will just leave it alone. No one will groom it. And then there's actually a really disturbing sequence in that show of than the parasite. Start to eat away on their skin. They get infections, they have issues. No one will mate with them. No, no. They have other issues as well and can potentially
Really die. So the interesting thing is is number two, and three start to line up a strategy to groom this guy. But they are actually thinking about overtaking the entire troop setting in a new Alpha. But the current Alpha did that to get where he is. So he knows that they're doing this grooming thing but they're not might not be sincere about the grooming. So what does he do? He takes the whole troop on a raid to another troop and sees who will fight for him and who won't
Is
Advanced
Contracting of behavior for species that normally we don't think of as as sophisticated as us. So it's very interesting and it gets to something that I hope will have an opportunity to talk about because it's something that I'm obsessed with lately. Is this notion of overt versus covert contracts? Right there, are over contracts where you exchange work for money or you exchange any number of things in an over way. But then there are covert contracts and those take on a very different form and
Has lead to in my belief bad things. Well how much of
human and chimp
relationships are over versus covert? Well, here's one thing that we know is true dogs and humans the dog to human relationship is 100% overt. They don't manipulate you now, you could say they do in the sense that they learn that if they look a certain way or roll on their back, they get food. But there's no, there's no banking of that behavior for
Future date where then they are going to undermine you and take your position. Okay? So that in that sense, dogs can be a little bit manipulative in some sense but now, okay, so overt contract would be, we both want to do some work together, we're going to make some money, you get X percentage, I get X percentage over covert contract, which is my opinion. Bat, always bad would be. We're gonna do some work together.
You're going to get a percentage of money. I'm going to get a percentage of money could look just like the over contract, but secretly, I'm resentful that I got the percentage I got. So what I start doing is covertly taking something else. What do I take? Maybe I take the opportunity to jab you verbally every once in a while. Maybe I take the opportunity to show up late, maybe I take the opportunity to get to know one of your co-workers so that I might start a business with them and that's covert Contracting. And
You see this, sometimes in romantic relationships, one person, we won't set the male or female in any direction here in just say, it's I'll make you feel powerful if you make me feel desired, okay, great. There's nothing explicitly wrong about that contract. If they both know and they're both agree but what if it's I'll do that but I'll have kids with you so you feel powerful, you'll have kids with me. So I feel desired but secretly, I don't want to do that or they one person says I don't want to do that.
We both don't. So what they end up doing is saying, okay, so I expect something else. I expect you to do certain things for me or I expect you to pay for certain things for me. Covert contracts are the signature of everything bad overt. Contracts are the signature of all things. Good? Yeah. And I think about this a lot because I've seen a lot of examples of this I've
Like anyone we participate in these things whether or not we want to or not in the thing that gets transacted. The
most is
why should say the things that get transacted, the most are the overt things you'll see money, time sex.
Property, whatever happens to be information. But what ends up happening is that when people, I believe, don't feel safe, they feel threatened in some way like it's they don't feel safe in a certain interaction. What they do is they start taking something else while still engaging in the exchange and I'll tell you if there's one thing about human nature that's bad, it's that feature.
Why that feature or is it a bug or a feature as you Engineers like to say I think it's because we were allocated a certain extra amount of prefrontal Cortex. That makes us more sophisticated than a dog more sophisticated than a chimpanzee but they do it
too and
it's because it's
often harder to deal with in the short term to deal with the real sense of this is scary. This feels threatening than it is to play out all the iterations. It takes a lot of brain work, it's a, you're playing chess and go simultaneously, trying to figure out where things are going to end up and we just don't know. So it's a way I think of creating a false sense of certainty. But I'll tell you covert contracts. The only certainty is that it's going to end badly. The question is,
Badly, conversely, over contracts, always end. Well, always the problem with over contracts is that you can't be certain that the other person is not engaging in a covert contract, you can only take responsibility for your own
contract. Well, one of the challenges of being human is looking at another human being and figuring out.
The way, their way of being their behavior, which of the two types of contracts of represents, because they look awfully the same on the surface. And one of the one of the challenges of being human is that decision we all make is? Are you? Somebody that takes a leap of trust and Trust other humans and are willing to take the hurt or you going to be cynical and skeptical and avoid most interactions until they're over a long period of time. Prove your
trust. Yeah. I never
Like the phrase history repeats itself when it comes to humans because it doesn't apply. If the people were, the person is actively working to resolve their own flaws. I do think that if people are willing to do dedicated introspective work go into their subconscious, do the hard work have hard conversations and get better hard conversation something that I'm constantly trying to get better at. I think people can change
They have to want to
change. It does seem like deep down, we all can kind of tell the difference between over and covert. Then we have a good sense, I think one of the benefits of having this characteristic of Mind where I value loyalty. I've been extremely fortunate to spend most of my life in over relationships and I think that creates a really fulfilling life. But there's also this thing that maybe were in
this portion of the podcast now but but I'll just raise. This
is late at night.
Knocking, that's right. Certainly late for me but I'm two hours came in today on. I'm still in
California. Should also say that you came here to wish me happy
birthday. I did I did I end the podcast is just like a
fun. Last minute thing. I suggested
yeah. Some close friends of yours have arranged a dinner that I really looking forward to. I won't say which night, but it's next couple of nights. You know, your circadian clock is. One of them are most robust features of your biology. I know you can be nocturnal.
Or you can be diurnal. We know you're mostly nocturnal certain Firearms the year locks but but there are very very few people can get away with no sleep. Very few people can get away with a chaotic sleep-wake schedule so you have to obey a 24-hour AKA circadian rhythm. If you want to remain healthy of Mind and Body, we also have to acknowledge that it's Beijing is in linear, right? So what do you mean? Well, I mean, you the degree of change.
Between years, 35 and 40 is not going to be the degree of change between 40 and 45. But I will say this I'm 48 and I feel better in every aspect of my psychology and biology. Now than I did, when I was in my 20s. Yeah, sort of core quality of thought, time spent physically, I can do what I did then which is probably says more about what I could do then when I can do now. But
If you keep training, you can continue to get better. The key is to not get injured, and I've never trained super hard, I've trained hard, but I've been cautious to not. For instance, weight train, more than two days in a row. I do a split, which, basically three days a week and the other days, run, take one full day off, take a week off every 12 to 16 weeks. I've not been the guy hurling the heaviest weights, or running the furthest distance, but I have been the guy who's continuing to do it when a lot of my friends are talking about knee injuries. Hey, hey,
hey.
But of course, with sport, you can't account for everything the same way you can with Fitness and and I have to acknowledge that, you know, unless one is powerlifting, you know, weight lifting and running, you can get hurt but it's not like skateboarding. Where if you if you're going for it you're going to get hurt. That's just your landing on concrete and it which you Jutsu like people are trying to hurt you. So that you say stop. But so with a sport it's different and these days I don't really do.
Do a sport. Any longer I work out safe it. I, I used to continue to do sports but I kept getting hurt and, and frankly now, like a roll the ankle, I'm a put a little small skateboard part in 2024 because people have been saying, we want to see the kickflip. I'm say, well, I'll do a heel flip instead, but okay, I might put a little part because some of the guys at work on our podcast or from DC, I think by now I should at least do it just as
Like I'm not making it up and I probably will but I think it doing a sport is different. That's how you get hurt overuse and doing it, an actual sport and so you know hat tip to those do an actual sport
and that's a difficult decision. Like I a lot of people have to make I have to make widgets of for example like if you just look a Glee, I've trained really hard for all my life and grappling Sports, and fighting Sports, and all this kind of stuff. And I've avoided injury for the most part.
And I would say I would attribute that to training a lot. It sounds counterintuitive but training well and safely and correctly. Keeping good form saying no and then need to say no, but training a lot and taking it seriously. Now when this training is kind of a side really a side thing, I find that the injury is a becomes higher and higher probability
when you're just doing it every once in a while every once in a while. Yeah, that I think you said,
Something really important that the saying no, I mean the times I have gotten hurt training is when someone's like hey let's hop on this work out together. And income said, let's challenge each other to do something outrageous. Sometimes that can be fun, though. I went up to campaigns is Jim and he does, he's very high repetition weight workouts that are in circuit form. I was sore for two weeks but I learned a lot and didn't get injured and yes we ate bow hunted elk
after nice but the injury has
In a really difficult, psychological thing for me because so, I've injured, my finger pinky finger injured, my knee, your
kitchen is filled with splints
Spence. I'm trying to figure out. I'm trying to figure out
I'm trying. It's like if you look at last his kitchen, there's there's some really good snacks. I had some right before, he's very good about keeping cold drinks in the fridge and all the water has element in it which is great that. But then there,
There's a whole like hospitals worth of
splint. Yeah, I'm trying. I'm trying to figure out. So here's the thing, you think I like pop out like this, right? Pinky finger, I'm trying to figure out how do I splint in such a way that I can still program, still play guitar, but protect this kind of torque motion that creates a huge amount of pain as long as
you have a Jiu-Jitsu injury Jutsu. But
it's a, it's not the kind of, it's probably more like a skateboarding style injury, which is it's unexpected.
In a silly in a silly thing, that happens
as I didn't break my foot doing anything important. Yeah, I broke my fifth metacarpal stepping off a curb. So it's that's why they're called accidents, you know, if you get hurt doing something awesome, that's a trophy. Yeah. That you have to work through its part of your payment to the universe. If you get hurt stepping off a curb or doing something stupid, it's called a stupid accident.
Since we brought up champ, I let me ask you about relationships.
I think we talked about relationships.
Yeah, I only date Homo sapiens. Almost
the morning meditation. The night is still young. You are human. No, but you are also animal. Don't sell yourself short. No, I would say, listen, any
discussion on the human Lab podcast about sexual health or anything. I always beat that the critical Force consensual age appropriate context, appropriate, species-appropriate
species-appropriate? Well, can I just tell you about sexual selection? I've been watching life and
With David Attenborough, there's a lot been watched a lot of Nature Documentaries talking about inner peace. It brings me so much peace to watch nature at its worse than its best. So life and color is the series on Netflix where it presents some of the most colorful animals on Earth and kind of tells their story of how they got there through natural selection. So you know you have the peacock with the feathers and it's just such incredible colors. Like the peacock has these tail feathers the
Male there like gigantic. They're super call from their These Eyes on. It's not eyes. It's like I like areas and and they wiggle their ass like to show the tail. They were go the tails. Eyespots the icebox. Yes. Thank you. You know, this probably way better than me. I'm just quoting at know, maybe at least continue, but it was, it's just I'm watching this and then the female is as boring looking as pot, like she is no collars and nothing but she's standing there. Bored just seeing this entire dish.
Play. And I'm just wondering like the entirety of life on Earth or not. The entirety post bacteria is like, in at least, in part. Maybe in large part, can be described to this process of natural selection of sexual selection. So, dudes, fighting and then women selecting it seems like it's just the entirety of that series shows some
incredible
birds and insects
And shrimp. They're all beautiful and colorful and just a
shrimp mantis
shrimp. There's just they're incredible. Hmm. And it's all about getting laid. It's fascinating like I just and there's nothing like watching dad and chamber Empire to make you realize we humans. That's the same thing. That's all we're doing. Mmm and all the beautiful variety. All the bridges in the buildings and the rockets and the internet, all of that is this kind of, is at least in part this kind of
A product of this kind of showing off for each other and all the wars and all this. Anyway, well, there's a masking. Oh, well then ships.
Well, right before you ask about relationship, I think what's clear. Is that every species? It seems animal species wants to make more of itself and protect its
young with the protect. This young is non-obvious, so not destroy enough.
Enough
of itself that it can't get more to reproductive competent age. I mean, I think that, you know, we have a natural, I mean, healthy people have a natural reflex to protect children. Well, I don't know those that can't
wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I've seen enough animals that are murdering the children, Shore. Some other
sure there's even Sybil aside there. Like, first of all, I just want to say that I was delighted.
did in your Delight around, Animal Kingdom stuff because this is a favorite theme of - well, but there's for instance, some fascinating data on, for instance, for those that grew up on farms, they'll be familiar with free Martin's, you know, about free Martin's, this is their cows that
have multiple
calves inside them and there's a situation in which the Cavs will secrete if there's more than one inside will secrete chemicals, that will
Hormonal e, castrate the cap next to them so they can't reproduce already in the womb. They are fighting for future resources. That's how we really this stuff can start, so it's chemical warfare in the womb Against The Sibling. Sometimes there's outright Sybil aside. Siblings are born, they kill one another. This also becomes biblical stories right. There are instances of cuttlefish beautiful cephalopods like octopuses and that is the plural as we, yeah.
We made them name the internet. Oh yeah. That became a meme. Our little discussion. Yeah, there's a grid pretty quickly and now we just resurfaced.
It is great that this may and your voice is so amusing. In any event that male cuttlefish, will disguise themselves by, as female cuttlefish infiltrate, the female cuttlefish group, and then mate with them, you know, all sorts of, you know, types of covert, there we go.
So, I think that that's like a drinking game where every time we say, covert and contract, in this episode, you have to take a shot of espresso. Please don't do that. You'd be dead by the end.
So actually just a small tangent. It does make me wonder how much intelligence covert contracts require? It seems like not much if they if we could if you can do it in the animal kingdom there's some kind of instinctual. It is based perhaps in like fear.
Yeah, could be simple algorithm.
If if, you know, if there's some ambiguity about numbers and I'm not with these guys and, you know, then flip to the alternate strategy, actually have a story about this, I think is real, but I used to have cuttlefish in my lab, in San Diego. We went and got them from a guy out in the desert, we put them in a lab is amazing and they had a postdoc who was studying prey capture and cuddle fish. They have a very ballistic extremely rapid strike and grab of the shrimp and they we were using high-speed cameras.
To characterize all this. Looking at binocular, they normally have their eyes on the side of their head. When they see something they want to eat eyes translocate to the front, which allows them stereopsis depth perception. Allows them to strike. We're doing some unilateral I removals, they would miss etcetera. Okay? This has to do with eyespots this was during a government shutdown period where the ghost shrimp that they normally feet on that, we would ship in from the Gulf down here, weren't available to us so we had to get different shrimp.
What we noticed was that the Cuttlefish normally would just sneak up on the shrimp. We would learn this by data collection, and if the shrimp was facing them, they would do this thing with their tentacles of kind of in chanting the cuddle. But the, the shrimp, and if the shrimp wasn't facing them, they wouldn't do it and they would ballistically grab it and then eat them. Well, when we got these new shrimp, the new shrimp had eye spots on their tails, and then the Cuttlefish would do this kind of attempt to enchant regardless of the position of
The gauche room. So what does that mean? Okay, well, it means that there's some sort of algorithm in the Cuttlefish is mind that says, okay, if you see two spots move your tentacles, so it can be as you pointed out, it can be a fairly simple operation, but it looks diabolical. It looks cunning. But all it is, is strategy. Be
yeah, but it's still somehow
Emerged. I mean I'd I don't think that he's like selling an algorithm doesn't I
feel like well there's a circuit there that gets implemented in a certain context but that circuit had to evolve you do, realize
it super intelligent AI will look at us humans and will say the exact thing there's a circuit in there that evolved to do this algorithm a and algorithm B, and it's trivial and toss humans. It's fancy and beautiful. Write poetry about
it, but it's because so we
Don't understand the subconscious because they want that AI algorithm cannot see into what it can't see. It doesn't understand the under workings of what allows all of this conversation, stuff to manifest and we can't even see it. How could I see it? Maybe it will. Maybe maybe a, I will solve and give us access to our subconscious. Maybe you're a, i friend or coach like I think Andreessen and others are arguing is going to happen at some point. It's going to say, Hey, you know, Lex you're making decisions lately,
The that are not good for you, but it's because of this algorithm that you picked up in childhood that if you don't State, your explicit needs up front. You're not going to get what you want. So why do it from now on you need to actually make a list of every absolutely outrageous thing that you want, no matter how outrageous, and communicate that immediately. And that will work
what we talked about coefficient sexual selection and then we went into some where do we go? Well,
You said you were excited. So I was I was, I was
excited. Well, you were just saying what about these? These covert contracts and animals do them I think is simple contextual engagement of a neural circuit which is not just nerd, speak for saying they do a different strategy, it's saying that there has to be a circuit. They're hardwired circuit may be learned but probably hardwired that can be engaged. Right? You can't build neural Machinery. Out of in a moment you need to build that circuit over time. What is building it over time you select for it? The the
Cuttlefish that did not have that alternate context-driven circuit didn't survive. When there was a, when all the shrimp that they normally disappear in the, I spotted shrimp showed up and there were a couple to add some. Miss wiring, this is why mutation right X-Men's type stuff is real. They had a mutation that had some alternate wiring and that wiring got selected for became a beautician that was adaptive as opposed to maladaptive. This is something people don't often understand about.
Is that it only takes a few generations to devolve a trait, make it worse, but it takes a long time to evolve an Adaptive trait, there are exceptions to that. But most often that's true. So species needs a lot of generations. We are hopefully still evolving as a species and it takes a long time, but to evolve more adaptive traits, but doesn't take long to devolve adaptive trait so that you're getting sicker or you're not.
Young as well. So choose your mate wisely and that's perhaps the good segue into sexual selection
shipments. I could tell you a good with said, well, why did I bring up? Sexual selection is good relationships, so, sexual selection humans. Even I don't think you've done an episode on relationships.
No, I did an episode on attachment, right? But not on relationships, the series with Conti includes one episode of the for, that's all about.
Relational understanding and how to select a mate based on matching of drives
and all the the Demons Inside the subconscious, HUD match, demons, and they dance well together.
What? And how generative two people are. What does that mean? Means the how the way he explains it
is. How devoted to
creating growth within the context of the family. The relationship with
work? Well, let me ask you about mating rituals and how to find such a relationship.
I mean, you're really big on friendships on the value of friendships, I am. And that I think extends itself into one of the deepest kinds of friendships, you can have, which is a romantic relationship. What, what, mistakes, successes and wisdom, can you impart?
Well, I've certainly made some mistakes. I've also made some good choices in this realm.
First of all, we have to Define what sort of relationship we're talking about. If one is looking for a life partner, you have potentially somebody to establish family with with, or without kids with, or without pets, right? Families can take different forms. I mean, I certainly experienced being a family in a prior relationship where it was the two of us in our two dogs. And it was like it's family. Like we had a little family,
I think.
Based on my experience and based on input from friends, who themselves have very successful relationships. I must say, I've got friends who are in long-term monogamous, very happy relationships, where there seems to be a lot of love, a lot of laughter, a lot of Challenge and a lot of growth and both.
People. It seems
really want to be there and enjoy being there.
It's just a pause on that one thing to do. I think about way of advice is listen to people who are in long-term successful relationships, that's like seems dumb. But like like we both know in our friends with Joe Rogan, who's been in a long-term really great relationship and he's been an inspiration to me.
So you take advice from that guy, definitely, and several members of my podcast.
Steam are in excellent relationships. I think one of the things that Rings true over and over again, in the advice. And my experience is, you know, find someone who's really a great friend like build a really great friendship with that person. Obviously not just a friend if we're talking romantic relationship but and of course sex is super important. But it should be a part of
Particular relationship, alongside or meshed with the Friendship. Can it be a majority of the, the positive exchange I suppose it could? But I think the Friendship piece is extremely important because what's required in a successful relationship. Clearly is joy and being together.
Trust.
A desire to share experience both you know mundane and and More Adventurous support each other acceptance. A real maybe even admiration but certainly Delight in being with the person, you know, earlier we were talking about peace and I think that that sense of Peace comes from knowing that the person you're in friendship with or that you're in romantic relationship or ideally both because let's assume healthy relationship, the
Romantic relationship includes a friendship component with that person. It's like you just freely Delight in their presence. Even if it's a quiet presence and you Delight in seeing them Delight in things, right? That's clear. The trust piece is huge, you know. And and that's where people start, you know, we don't want to focus on what works, not what doesn't work, but that's where I think people start engaging these covert contracts. They're afraid of
Of being betrayed, so they betray, they're afraid of giving up too much vulnerability. So they hide their vulnerability. We're in the worst cases, they feign vulnerability. Again, that's a covert contract that just simply undermines, everything becomes 1, plus 1, equals 2, minus 1 to Infinity.
Conversely, I think if people can have really hard conversations this is something I've had to work really hard on in recent years and I'm still working hard on but the friendship he seems to be the thing that rises to the top. When I talk to friends who are in these great relationships, like they have so much respect and love and joy, and being with their friend is the person that they want to spend as much of their non-working, non platonic.
Uptime with and the person that they want to experience things with and share things with and and it sounds so kind of canned cliche nowadays, but I think if you step back and examine how most people go about finding a relationship so I'm like oh like my attracted of course, physical attraction is important in other forms of traction to and they serve enter through that portal, which makes sense. That's, that's the mating dance, right? That's the peacock situation. That's hopefully not the Cuttlefish situation when there.
But but I think that there seems to be a history of people close to me getting into great relationships where they were friends for a while first or maybe didn't sleep together right away. Yeah, that they actually intentionally deferred on that. This has not been my habit or my experience that, you know, I've gone the more I think typical like oh, there's an attraction like this person, there's an interest, you kind of explore, all dimensions of relationship.
Quickly except perhaps the moving in part in the having kids part which ideal it, because the bigger step harder to undo without more severe consequences. But I think that whole take it slow thing, I don't think is about getting to know someone slowly. I think it's about that physical piece because that does change the nature of the relationship. And I think it's because it gets right into the more hardwired primitive. Circuitry around, our feelings of safety.
T. You know, there's something about romantic and sexual interactions where it's almost like, it's like assets and liabilities, right? Where people are trying to figure out how much
to
engage their time and their energy, and multiple. I'm talking about from both sides, you know, male female or whatever it sides, but where it's like assets and liabilities and that's where it starts getting into those.
Complicated contracts early on I think it's maybe that's why if a really great friendship and admiration is established first, even if people are romantically and sexually attracted to one another than that piece can be added in a little bit later in a way
that really kind of just seals up the
whole thing and then, who knows, maybe they spent 90% of their time having sex? I don't know that that's not for me to say or or decide, obviously, but there's something there about staying out of
of a certain amount of
Risk of having to engage covert contract in order to protect oneself, but I do think
like love at first sight. This kind of idea is in
part realizing very
quickly that you are great friends. Like I've had that interest experience. A friendship recently, just
it's not really friendship but like all you get each other with with humans.
Not not in a romantic
setting, right? Friendship. Yeah, just friendship but not dare. I say, I felt that way about you when we met, but we also have this dude's cool. And he's smart and he's funny, and he's driven, and he's giving, and he, and he's got an edge. And by I want to want to learn from want to hang out with him like that. I mean, that was the beginning of our friendship was essentially, you know that set of internal realization going. Just keep going that good
people sharp dresser. Yeah,
Looks great shirtless on Horseback. Yes,
yeah. No no. Is it listen to him is despite what some people might say on the internet. So purely platonic
friendship. Somebody said somebody asked if Andrew has a girlfriend and somebody says, I think so and the the third comment was this really like breaks? My heart like that. Lex and Andrew are not a, not an
item. We are not. We are great friends but we are not an item after it's official. The I hear over and over again.
Again from friends, that had made great choices and awesome partners. And have these fantastic relationships for long periods of time. They continue seem to continue to thrive least that's what they tell me and that's what I have observe, establish the Friendship first and give it a bit of time before sex. And so you know, I think that's the feeling that's the feeling and and these are we're talking.
Micro features and macro features were talking, you know, in this isn't about perfection. It's actually about the imperfections, which is kind of cool. I like quirky people, I like characters. I'll tell you where, I've gone badly wrong, where I see other people going badly
wrong. If
there is no rule that says that you have to be attracted to all Attractive people.
By any means, it's a very important to develop a sense of
taste
in romantic attractions. I believe what you really like in terms of a certain style, you know, a certain way of being. And of course that includes sexuality and sex itself, the verb but it I think it also includes there's just general way of being, you know. And when you really adore somebody you like the way the answer the phone, and when they don't answer the phone that way,
No, something's off and you want to know. And so I think that the more you can tune up your powers of observation, not looking for things that you like and the more that stuff just kind of washes over you, the more likely you are to quote-unquote fall in love as a mutual friend of ours. Said to me, you know, listen, when it comes to romantic relationships, if it's not 100% in
you, it ain't happening.
And I've never seen
a violation of that statement where it's like it. Yeah, it's mostly good. And they're this and there's like the negotiations, what we already are your it's doomed and that doesn't mean someone has to be perfect. Relationship has to be perfect but it's got a feel hundred percent inside like? Yes, yes. And yes, I think dicer off when he was on here. Your podcast mentioned something that you know like I think the words were you or maybe it was in his book. I don't recall but that you love is one of these things that we store.
Three into with somebody. We create this idea of ourselves in the future and we look at our past time together and then you story into it. I mean, the very few things like that, I can't story Into, You Know, building flying cars. I have to actually go do something. I mean you didn't love Coke, is also retroactively constructed. I mean, anyone who's gone through a breakup understands, the grief of knowing I like this is something I really shouldn't be in for whatever reason is because it only takes one
The other person doesn't want to be at, then you shouldn't be in it but then missing so many things and that's just the attachment Machinery. Really at
work. I have to ask you a question that somebody in our amazing team wanted to ask he's happily married. Another like you mentioned incredible relationship, are they good friends and their Amazing Friends you go but also said not saying who it is. So I can say some stuff which is they it started out as a great sexual connection.
There you go, but then became
very close friends after they listen. There you go.
Speaking of society passed around. He
was he has a wonderful son and He is wanting to have a second kid and he went to ask the great Andrew huberman. Is there like sexual positions or any kind of thing that can help maximize the chance that they have a girl versus a boy, because it had wonderful boy, they want a girl, is there is there a way to control the gender? Well, this has
been debated.
Dated for a long time and I did a four and a half hour episode on fertility. And the reason I did a four and a half hour episode on fertility, is that first of all, I find that that reproductive biology be fascinating and I wanted a resource for people that we're thinking about or struggling with having kids for whatever reason. And it felt important to me to combine the male and female components. In the same episode, it's all time stamps. So you don't have to listen to the whole thing. We talked about IVF in vitro fertilization and we talk about natural.
It's the okay, the data on position is very interesting, but let me just say a few things, there are a few clinics. Now, in particular, some out of the United States that are spinning down sperm, and finding that they can separate out fractions as they're called, you know, the can spin the sperm down at a given speed and they'll separate out at different sort of depths, within the test tube that, allow them to pull out the sperm on top or below and bias the
Leti towards male or female births. It's not perfect. It's not 100%. It's a very costly procedure. It's still very controversial. Now, with in vitro fertilization can extract eggs, you can do introduce a sperm directly by pipette and it's process called ixy or you can set up a sperm race and the dish. And if you get a number of different embryos, meaning the eggs, get fertilized duplicate enforced. Art form a blastocyst which is a ball of cells, early embryo, then you can do karyotype
So you can do look for XX or XY. Select the X Y, which then would give rise to a male offspring and plant that one. So there is that kind of sex selection with respect to position. There's a lot of lower that, you know, if the woman is on top or the woman's on the bottom or whether or not the penetration is from behind, whether or not it's going to be male or female Offspring. And frankly, the data are not great as you can imagine because those those would be interesting studies to
To run perhaps there is study, there is paper. There are some there, are there, not I guess that's, it has
more lore than science,
and there's a lot of and there are a lot of other variables that are hard to control. So for instance, if it's Jackie Elation during intermission during during sex penetration etcetera, then you can't measure, for instance, sperm volume as opposed to when it's IVF. And they can actually measure how many milliliters, how many forward motile sperm, it's hard to control for for certain things.
And this is going vary between individuals and even from one ejaculation of the next. And okay, so there's too many variables. However, the position thing is interesting in the following way and then I'll answer whether or not you can bias towards the female as long as we're taught as laws, which I have other questions about sex, but as long as we're talking about sexual position, right there are data.
That support the idea that in order to increase the probability of successful.
Fertilization that indeed, the woman should not stand up right after sex and should right after right. After the man is ejaculated inside her, and should adjust her pelvis say 15 degrees upwards. I mean, you know, some of the fertility experts MDS will say, that's crazy, you know, but others that I sought out and not specifically for this answer, but for researching that episode
That. Yeah, you know what you're talking about is trying to get the maximum number of sperm and it's contained in semen and yes, the semen can leak out. And so keeping the pelvis tilted for about 15 degrees for about 15 minutes, obviously tilted in the direction that would have things running Upstream not Downstream. So to
speak, would
gravity. It's real, you know, so so for maximizing realization, you know, the doctors, I spoke to just said, look, given that if
People are trying to get pregnant. What is spending 15 minutes on their back you know this sort of thing, okay? So then with respect to the two female getting a female Offspring or X ax female Offspring selectively. There is the idea that as fathers get older, they're more likely to have daughters as opposed to Sons. That's a from the papers I've read is a significant but still mildly.
Result. So at with each passing year this person increases the probability, they're gonna have a daughter, not a son look so that's
interesting. But the probability differences of probably tiniest.
I mean it's not you know, it's a significant not trivial, it's not a trivial difference, but if they want to ensure having a daughter, then they should do IVF and select an XX. I'm embryo. And when you go through IVF they genetically screen.
Them for karyotype which is XX XY. And they look at mutations genotypic mutations for things like you know, trisomies and aneuploidy is all the stuff you don't want but there is a lot of lore if you look on the insurer or different foods. So there's a lot of variables that there's a lot of hair but there have been systematic studies so I think probably the best thing to do unless they're going to do IVF is just you know roll the dice and you know what I think.
Each
passing year, the increase the probability of getting a female Offspring and with. But of course with each passing year, the egg and sperm quality degrade, so, you know, get after it soon. So I went down a rabbit hole, there's like six ology. There's there's journals. Oh yeah, on sex. Sure. Okay. So I'm some of them, some of them, not all quite reputable. Yeah. And some of them really pioneering in the sense that they've taken on top
topics that are, you know, considered you know, outside the Mainframe of what people talk about their very important. We have episodes coming out soon with, for instance, the head of male Urology, sexual health, and reproductive Health at Stanford Michael Eisenberg. But also, you know, one with a female urologist, Sexual Health, reproductive Health, dr. Rena moloch. Whose on as a quite active YouTube presence. She does these really like dry.
Um, present like scientific presentation, but very nice. She has a lovely voice and she but she'll be talking about, you know, reactions are squirting or like, always it. Like she does, like very kind of Internet type content, but she's a legitimate, urologist reproductive health expert. And in the podcast, we did talk about both male and female orgasm. We talked a lot about sexual function. Dysfunction, we talked a lot about pelvic floor, one. Interesting factoid is that
Only three, only. Three percent of sexual dysfunction is
Hormonal, endocrine in nature. It's more often related to some pelvic floor or vasculature blood flow related or other issue. And then when Eisenberg came on the podcast, he said that far less sexual dysfunction is psychogenic in origin, then people believe that far more of it is pelvic floor, neuro and Vascular. So you know there's there the myths of I mean it's not saying that it's that psychogenic just function doesn't exist but that
A lot of the sexual dysfunction that people assume is related to hormones or that is related to psychogenic, issues are related to vascular or neural issues and the good news is that they're great remedies for those. And and so those both those episodes details, some of the more Salient points around what those remedies are and could be. I mean, one of the kind of, again, factoids bows, interesting, that a lot of people have pelvic floor issues and they think that their pelvic floors are
Quote, unquote messed up, so they go on the internet, they learn about kegels kegels that, you know, and it turns out that some people need kegels, they need to strengthen their pelvic floor. Guess what? A huge number of people with sexual and Urologic dysfunction have public floors that are too tight and kegels are going to make them far worse. And they actually need to learn to relax their pelvic floor. And so, seeing a pelvic floor specialist as important, I think, in the next 5-10 years were going to see a dramatic shift towards more discussion about sex.
On reproductive Health in a way that acknowledges that. Yeah, the clitoris is comes from the same origin tissue as the penis and in many ways that the neural innervation of the two. Well, clearly different has some overlapping features that, you know, that there's going to be discussion around, kind of anatomy and hormones, and pelvic floors. And in a way that's going to, you know, erode some of that kind of like, cloaking of these topics because they've been cloaked for a long
Time. And there's a lot of like,
Boss called. What is? There's a lot of bullshit out there about what's what? And now, the hormonal issues, by the way, just to clarify can impact desire. So a lot of people who have lack of desire as opposed to lack of anatomical function. This could be male or female that, that can originate with either things like ssris or hormonal issues. And so we talked about that as well. So it's a pretty vast topic.
Okay, you've you're one of the most productive people I know.
What's the secret to your productivity? How do you maximize the number of productive hours and day? Your scientists, your teacher, your of a prolific educator?
Well, thanks for the kind words. I struggle like everybody else, but I been pretty Relentless about
Meeting deadlines I miss them sometimes but sometimes that means cramming sometimes that means starting early
but has it been hard sorry to interrupt with the podcast you just certain episodes. I mean you're like taking just incredibly difficult topics and you know they're going to be they're going to be a lot of really good scientists listening to those with a very skeptical and careful. I like how hard you struggle with meeting that deadline?
Sometimes yes that we've
Pushed out episodes because I want more time with them. I also, I haven't advertised this but I have another fully tenured professor. That's been started. I'm checking my podcasts and helping me find papers. He's a close friend of mine is incredible expert in neuroplasticity and that's been helpful but I research all my do all the primary research for the episodes myself. Although my niece has been doing a summer internship with me and finding amazing.
A she did last summer as well she's really good at it. Just sick that kid on the internet and she gets great
stuff guys. Could just going on tangents here. What's the hardest finding the papers or understanding what a paper saying final finding and
finding the best papers?
Yeah, because you have to,
you know, read a bunch of reviews. Figure out, who's getting cited call people in a field. Make sure that this is the stuff. I mean, you know, I did this episode recently on ketamine about ketamine,
I wasn't on ketamine and and you know, there's this whole debate about s versus our kid. I mean, Sr can immunize. And I called to clinical experts at Stanford. I had a researcher at UCLA help me. Even then, you know, if you people had gripes about it, that I don't think they understood a section that I was perhaps could have been clearer about. But yeah, you're always concerned that people won't either won't get it. Or I won't be clear. So that the researching is mainly about finding the best papers and then I'm looking for papers that establish
Our own this of understanding that are interesting. Obviously, it's fun to get occasionally. Look at some of the odder or more Progressive papers that are, you know, what's new in a field and then where there are actionable takeaways to really export those with with a lot of thoughtfulness. I mean, I think that going back to the productivity thing you know I I do. I get up, I look at the sun. I don't stare at the Sun but I got my sunshine. I it all starts with a really good night's sleep. I think that's really important.
Portent understand so much so that if I wake up and I don't feel rested enough, I'll often do it. Not sleep, deep, rest, Yoga Nidra are go back to sleep for a little bit, get up. Really prioritize one, you know, the big block of work for the thing that I'm researching, I think a little bit of anxiety and a little bit of concern about deadlines helps turning the phone off, helps realizing that those peak hours. Whenever they are for you, you do not allow those hours to be invaded. Unless there's a, you know,
Nuclear bomb goes off and a nuclear bomb is just a, you know, phraseology for, you know, it could be family crisis would be and, you know, would be good justification. There's an emergency obviously, but it's all about Focus. It's all about focus in the moment. It's not even so much about how many hours you log. It's really about focusing on how much total focus you can you give to something and then I like to take walks and think about things and sometimes talk about them in.
My voice recorder. So I'm just always churning on it all the time. And, and then, of course, learning to turn it off and engage with people socially. And, you know, not not be podcasting 24 hours a day and your head is key. But I think I love learning and researching and finding that those papers in the information and I love teaching it and these days I use a whiteboard before I start. I don't have any notes. No teleprompter. Then the the Whiteboard that I use beforehand is to really sculpt out
Foreign elements and the flow, get the flow, right? And move things around. The Whiteboard is such a valuable tool, then take a couple pictures of that, when I'm happy with it, put it down on the desk. And these are just bullet points and then just turn through and just turn through, and nothing feels better than, you know, researching and sharing information. And and I been as you did, you know, grew up writing papers and it it's hard. And I like the friction of a like, can't, you know, I want to get up when he's about her when I was in college.
I was trying to make up deficiencies from my lack of attendance in high school so much so that I would set a timer. I wouldn't let myself get up to use the bathroom, even never had an accident. But I was, you know, me as like, I listen to music, classical music, rancid, few other things. Some Bob Dylan may be thrown in there and just study and and it it Felts and then you don't hit the two-hour. Mark in your pain and then you get him. Yeah, like he's about him like that felt so good.
Good. Yeah, there's something about the human brain that likes these kind of friction points and working through them and you just have to work through them. So yeah productive and and my life is arranged around it and you know, that's been a bit of a barrier to personal life at times but my life's been arranged around it, I've set up everything so that I can learn more teach more, including
You know, some of my home life and but I do, you know, still watch chimp Empire. Still got time to watch him about burr. Look, the great Joe Strummer, right Clash over, my favorite Mescalero is, he said, you know, the famous drummer quote, no input, no output. So you need, you need experience. You need outside things in order to Foster the process. But, yeah, just nose to the grindstone, man. I don't, I don't know. And that's what. And that's what.
Happy to do with my life. I don't think anyone should do that just because but this is how I'm showing up and you know you don't like me. Then scroll swear they say swipe left. So I right, I don't know. I'm not on the apps dating app so that's the other thing. I keep waiting for when listens to like scream in podcast has a checkbox on like and your Bumble or whatever it is. But I don't even know where those that are feel. There's I don't know what that, what are the apps now, the
other way I've never used an app and I doze,
Foul trouble, somehow little information is provided on
apps. Well, they're the ones that are like a stock Lake like like, Riya, you know, like that lady like, they sort of like companies will actually fill them with people that look a certain way and will soon. It'll be filled with
AI. Oh,
yeah, that's what you said. Oh, that's hard. Break within that. Well, I, you know, I'm guilty of liking real human interaction that I have. You
tried AI interaction?
No, but I have a feeling you're going to convince me to
one day. You have of also struggled finishing projects
that are new. There are some something
new. Like, for example, some one of the things I really struggled finishing is something that's in Russian, that requires, translation, and overdub and all that kind of stuff. The other project I've been working on for like over, at least the year and off and on, but trying to finish it.
We've talked about in the past is I'm still on it project on Hitler and World War Two. I've written so much about it and I just don't know why I can't finish. It has trouble. Like really, I think I'm terrified being in front of the camera
like this like this or so. Well actually, no, no solo will face what a to solo. And seriously, because we've done this before right, our clandestine study missions. All I'm happy to sit in the corner and work on my book or do something if you want to fulfill.
Just just, just for the
feeling of somebody else. Definitely, what do you mean? How do you, you don't seem to you seem to have been Fearless to just sit in front of the camera by yourself to do the episode?
Yeah, it was weird. I mean, the first year of the podcast, it just spilled out of me. It was just I had all that stuff. I was so excited about. I've been talking to everyone and who would listen in a anyone even went to? They run away. I'd keep talking you know before there was ever a
Was it on social media? 2019, I post a little bit 2020 as you know, start going on podcast. But yeah, I had. So I just
I just
the zest and Delight in. This stuff is like circadian rhythms. I'm going to tell you about this stuff. I just felt like yours the opportunity and just let it burst and then as we've gotten into topics that are a little bit further away from my my home knowledge, you know, I still get super excited about it. It's music in the Brain episode of
Been researching for a while now. I'm just so hyped like about it. So, so interesting, there's so many facets. Singing verses improvisation improvisation, excuse me, music versus, I'm listening to music versus learning music. I mean that it just goes on and on there's just so much. That's so interesting. I just can't get enough and and I think I do you put a camera in front. Me, I sort of forget about it and I'm just trying to just teach.
Yes, that's the different. That's interesting. I mean, I regret that
Maybe I need to find that joy as well, but like for me a lot of the joys and in the writing and the camera are there
something well, the best lecturers as you know, and you're in a phenomenal lecture. So you embody this as well, but the when I teach at Stanford, I was directing this course in neuroanatomy and Neuroscience and for medical students. And I noticed that the best lecturers would come in and they're teaching the material from a place of deep understanding, but they're also experiencing it as a first-time learner as
At the same time so it's just our of embodying, the Delight of it. But also the authority over them not Authority but the sort of Mastery of the material and its really the Delight in it that the students are linking onto. And of course you, they need and deserve the best accurate material. So they have to know what they're talking about. But yeah, just tap into that energy of learning and loving it and people were along for the ride or yeah, I get accused of being long-winded, but you don't things, get taken out of context that leads to Greater misunderstanding and
So I look at this and I come from a lineage of three dead advisors three, all three. So I don't know. And the Reapers coming for me, I'm doing my best to stay alive long time but whether or not it's a bullet or a boss or cancer, or whatever, or just old age, I mean I'm trying to get it all out there.
It's best I can and if it means you have to hit pause and come back a day or two later like that seems like a reasonable compromise to me, I'm not going to go go longer than I need to and I'm trying to shorten them up. But again that's just kind of how I show up. It's like Tim Armstrong would say about writing songs asked him do you write off any write every day? Every day. What is Rick? Ever stop creating no is Jarvis. Stop preparing for comedy. Are you ever stop being to think about world issues and and technology? And
You can talk to, I mean, it seems to me, you've always got a plan, the inside, the thing, I love about your podcast. The most, to be honest, these days is the surprise of. Like, I don't know who else is gonna be there. It's almost like, like I got a little nervously excited about when a new episode comes. Like I said, no idea, no idea. And, you know, I mean I have some guesses based on what you told me during the break. I mean, yeah, you've got some people where it's just like, whoa, Lexis went there.
Awesome. Can't wait, click. You know they're you know I think that's really cool. Like you're constantly surprising people so you're doing it so well like it's such a high level and I think it's also important for people to understand that what you're doing lacks. There's no precedent for it. Sure. They're been interviews before their men podcast before their discussions before but it's not like how many of your peers can you look to to find out how best to do the content like yours zero? There's one Pier
You. And so, you know, that should give you great piece and great excitement because you're, you're a Pioneer, your that you're literally, the tip of the spear. I don't want to take an unnecessary tangent. But I think this might thread together to of the things that we've been talking about, which are think of pretty key. Importance, one is romantic relationships, and the other is creative process and work. And this again, is something I learned from Rick, but that he and I have gone back and forth on and that I think is worth elaborating on.
Which is earlier we're saying you know that the best relationship is going to be one where you where it brings you peace. I think piece also can be translated to among other things, lack of distraction. So when you're with your partner, can you really focus on them and the relationship, can you not be distracted by things that you're upset about from their past or from your past with them or there and of course, the same
For them, right? They were ideally will feel that way towards you to they can really focus also when you're not with them, can you focus on your work? Can you not be worried about whether or not? They're okay, because you trust that they're an adult and they can handle things, or they will reach out if they need things, they're going to communicate their needs like, an adult, you know, not creating messages just to get attention and things like that or or disappearing, you know, for that matter. So,
Peace and focus are
intimately related. And distraction is the enemy of peace and focus. So there's something there I believe because people that have the strong generative drive and want to you know be productive in their home life in the sense have a rich family life or partner life whatever that is and in their work life, you know the ability to really drop into the work and like, okay, you might have that sense like I hope they're
Are you? No need to check my phone or something but just not like we're good. Yeah. So so peace and focus. I think in present being present are so key and that its key at every level of romantic relationship from you know, certainly presents and focus you know everything from sex to listening to to you know raising a family to tending to the house and in work. It's absolutely critical. So I think that those things are kind of mirror images of the same thing.
NG and they're both important reflections of the other. And when you start to just, you know, when work as not going well then the relationship the focus on relationship can suffer and vice versa.
So and it's crazy how important that is house. How
incredibly
wonderful. It could be to have a person in your life that kind of enables that
creative Focus. Yeah, and you supply the the peace and focus for their Endeavors, whatever those
Might be, I mean, that that symmetry there because clearly people have different needs in the need to just really trust. You know, like when Lex is working, he's in his generative mode and I know he's good. And so then they, they feel sure they've contributed to that. But then also what you're doing is supporting them and whatever way happens to be and I think that sometimes you'll see that people will pair up along creative creative, or Musical musical or computer.
It's but I think again going back to this Conte episode on on relationships is that the superficial labels are less important. It seems than just the desire to create that kind of home, life and relationship together. And as a consequence, the the work mode and for some people they're both people aren't working and sometimes they are. But I think that's I think that's the good stuff, you know? And and I think that's the big learning and all of it is that the further along I go with each birthday.
I guarantee you're gonna be like what I want is simpler and simpler and harder and harder to to create. But oh so worth it,
the inner and the outer peace. It's been over two years I think since Costello passed away. Hmm,
still tears me up. It's not a question of Pride about them today. Cried about him today. It's, it's, it's proportional to the love. But yeah, I'll cry by right now.
I think it wasn't putting him down. It wasn't the act of him dying. Any of that? Actually, that was a beautiful experience. I didn't expect it to be but it was in my place when I was living in Topanga during the pandemic, where we launched the podcast, and I did it at home and I he hated the vet. So did it home? And it was, he gave out this huge right at the end. And I could just tell he had been in, just not a lot of pain. Fortunately, but he just been working so hard just to move at all.
And the craziest thing happened likes. It was unbelief. I've never had an experience like this. I expected my heart to break, and I've felt a broken heart before. I felt it, frankly, when my parents split, I felt it. When Harry shot himself, I hurt. I felt it when Barbara died and felt it wouldn't, you know, when Ben went so as well. And so many friends like way too many friends, I mean end of 2017. My friend Aaron King.
John Johnny Fair, John eikleberry stomach cancer, suicide, fentanyl time, whoa. All in a freaking week and I just remember thinking like what the but when cost like any just heartbreaking, you just carry that and it's like, but and that's just a short list, you know? And I don't say that for SOB stories just for a guy that wasn't in the military or didn't grow up in the inner city. Like it's unusual number of like deaths like close people.
When Costello went the craziest thing happened, my heart warmed up, it like heated up and I wasn't on MDMA and I wasn't, I was just just the moment he went, I just went and I was like, what the hell is this? And it was just it was like a supernatural experience to me. I just never had that put my grandfather in the ground. I was a pallbearer at the funeral of like done that more times. I had like to to have ever done it and you just heat it up with cost.
Tell me, I thought, what the fuck is this? And it was almost like an, you can make up these. We make up these stories about what it is, but it was almost like, he was like, all right. And to be careful because I won't cry here and I don't want to. It was almost like he was like,
All that effort because I put in putting so much effort into him. I was like, are you get that back? It was like the giant freaking thank you. And it was, it was incredible, you know, and I'm not embarrassed to shed a tear or two about if I have to like like holy shit. Like that's how close I was to that, Anna. What do you
think? What do you think you can find? That kind of love
that and I don't know. I mean, when an excuse me for well enough but it was just, I mean, it's friggin dog, right? I get it. But for me,
me, it was the first real home I ever had, but when Costello went, it was like, we'd had this home and Topanga, we had set it up and we like, and he was just so happy there and I think it just
Knows. It was like this weird like Victory slash massive loss, like we didn't 11 years, we can did everything everything to make him as comfortable as possible and he was super loyal, beautiful animal. But also just funny and fun. And, and I was like I did it. Like I like, you know, I gave as much of myself to this being as a human, I felt I could without making it, you know, like to trapped.
Detracting from the rest of my life and he looked. And so I don't know when I think about Barbara, especially I well up and I and it's hard for me but I mean I talked to her before she died and that was a brutal conversation saying goodbye to someone especially with kids and that was hard. I think that really flipped a switch in me where I'm like, I always knew I wanted kids, I say I want kids I want a lot of kids at that.
Just watching me. I was like, I want kids, you know, my own
kids. You might be able to find that kind of love.
Yeah, I think it because it was the caretaking wasn't about what he gave me all that time. And the more I could take care of him and see him happy, the better, I felt it was crazy and I'm, I don't know, so the miss him every day. Every day. I miss a day, every day, your you got a hard
that so full of love, I can't wait for you to have kids. It's been viewed to be
Your father. Yeah well I can't wait to the same
ready for it when you know, when when God decides I'm ready I'll have them
and then I will still beat you to it as I told you many times
before I think you should absolutely have kids. I mean, look at the people in our life because because we're kind of the if case you haven't realized it already like we're the the younger of the podcasters. But you know, like Joe and
Peter and Segura. And, you know, I'm, you know, and the rest right there, the like the, like the tribal Elders, right? And now, and we're, you know, we're not the youngest and the crew, but we're if you look at all those guys, they all have kids, they all adore their kids and their kids bring tremendous meaning to their life. Like we be. We'd be morons if you know, if you didn't go off.
Off and start a family. I didn't start off. Yeah, start a family. And yeah, I think that's the goal. I mean I think it had kids of the goals. That's one of them.
Kids not only make them their life more joyful and brings love to their life. It's also makes them more productive makes them better people all that. It's like oh it's it's it's a it's kind of obvious. Yeah, I think that's what
Costello wanted. I think I have the story in my head that he was just like, okay. Like take this. I can.
Yeah. And don't get dressed up
and look.
Nose. Don't fuck this up. And your
brother, this is incredible, you
to thank appreciate you. Let's as we will
talk often and each other's podcast for many years to come. Yes, many, many years to come. Thank you,
thanks for having me on here and there are no words for how much. I appreciate your example and your friendship. So love you brother. I love you
too.
Thanks for listening to this conversation with Andrew huberman. The support this podcast, please. Check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from Albert Camus. In the midst of winter, I found there was within me and Invincible summer, and that makes me happy for. It, says that no matter how hard the world pushes against me within me, there's something stronger. Something better pushing right back, thank you for listening and hope to see
See you next time.
